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Ozybonza
17-01-2011, 01:24
So DA (and BT) finally got an FAQ update and I think it's time for payback.

Despite having most things updated, there are still several disadvantages, however there are also advantages over codex:SM that can be utilised.

I propose a discussion on how DA can best utilise these changes, and hopefully get one up on codex:SM!!

So the obvious: TH/SS termies as troops. Pure WIN.

Not so obvious:
New style Cyclones are only 20 pts and can go on the back of an assault terminator. SM pays 30 (or 35?) points.

Dark Angels Landspeeder is 65 pts but only 10 pts more for a Typhoon, plus you can swap the HB for a MM for free, giving you a 75pt MM/Tyhpoon, versus 100pts for SM.

Unlimited range psychic hoods (but our Libby's still suck)

Small but good: LRC storm bolter is only 5 pts and combines well with Hurricane Bolters. LRCs got better now we have the good PotMS

I also think it's safe to assume we'll get access to the Stormraven....


So given all this, what are some good and/or abusive lists/combos people can come up with? I'm not usually a WAAC player but it's time DA kicked some ass again!

PostinDirty
17-01-2011, 02:00
I also think it's safe to assume we'll get access to the Stormraven....


huh? how'd you come to that conclusion?

Shipmonkey
17-01-2011, 02:14
LRCs got better now we have the good PotMS


Since we lost the ability to move if Stunned, thus forcing us to buy Extra Armor, I do not consider the new PotHS good, just different.

Mannimarco
17-01-2011, 02:16
So DA (and BT) finally got an FAQ update and I think it's time for payback.

Despite having most things updated, there are still several disadvantages, however there are also advantages over codex:SM that can be utilised.

I propose a discussion on how DA can best utilise these changes, and hopefully get one up on codex:SM!!

So the obvious: TH/SS termies as troops. Pure WIN.

Not so obvious:
New style Cyclones are only 20 pts and can go on the back of an assault terminator. SM pays 30 (or 35?) points.

Dark Angels Landspeeder is 65 pts but only 10 pts more for a Typhoon, plus you can swap the HB for a MM for free, giving you a 75pt MM/Tyhpoon, versus 100pts for SM.

Unlimited range psychic hoods (but our Libby's still suck)

Small but good: LRC storm bolter is only 5 pts and combines well with Hurricane Bolters. LRCs got better now we have the good PotMS

I also think it's safe to assume we'll get access to the Stormraven....


So given all this, what are some good and/or abusive lists/combos people can come up with? I'm not usually a WAAC player but it's time DA kicked some ass again!

Yep the DA just got decent and fair play to those who stuck it out with the outdated dex instead of moving on to Codex: Ultramarines.

Im now looking forward to all those Chaos players who have just realised DA fit the theme perfectly for their own armies.

Joewrightgm
17-01-2011, 02:30
Yep the DA just got decent and fair play to those who stuck it out with the outdated dex instead of moving on to Codex: Ultramarines.

Im now looking forward to all those Chaos players who have just realised DA fit the theme perfectly for their own armies.

ZING! :D

I'm a bit annoyed with the update; merely because I've roped myself into a Tyrant's Legion/Astral Claws army about a year and a half after I sold my Dark Angels off.

I guess I'm not a very competitive player, because I never really whined and cried about the lack of similar but different equipment rules for Dark Angels when I played them.

Born Again
17-01-2011, 02:46
what are some good and/or abusive lists/combos people can come up with? I'm not usually a WAAC player but it's time DA kicked some ass again!

When people come online and just openly ask for abusive lists to and ideas to cheese out of revenge, it highlights so much that can go wrong with this hobby.

If you feel you have been fighting with an underpowered book all this time, then rather than going OOT now, why not just form a competitive yet balanced list and have the satisfaction of knowing you beat people on an equal footing?

Grand Master Raziel
17-01-2011, 03:17
I propose a discussion on how DA can best utilise these changes, and hopefully get one up on codex:SM!!

You know, if we had the maturity not to codex-hop for momentary advantage, I don't think getting one up on our vanilla-playing counterparts is going to be all that important to us.


Im now looking forward to all those Chaos players who have just realised DA fit the theme perfectly for their own armies.

I'm genuinely curious to hear what Chaos forces you think the newly FAQed DAs can portray better than Codex: Chaos Space Marines. I thought maybe Nurgle/Death Guard because you can field up to 3 units with FNP (Belial unlocks 2, any other IC unlocks 1), but then you have the rest of the army that doesn't have any Nurglesque rules and is generally higher-priced and more restrictive by far than Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Mannimarco
17-01-2011, 03:39
I'm genuinely curious to hear what Chaos forces you think the newly FAQed DAs can portray better than Codex: Chaos Space Marines. I thought maybe Nurgle/Death Guard because you can field up to 3 units with FNP (Belial unlocks 2, any other IC unlocks 1), but then you have the rest of the army that doesn't have any Nurglesque rules and is generally higher-priced and more restrictive by far than Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

A light hearted poke at those Chaos players who see new loyalist rules and desperately try to make it fit a CSM army it doesnt matter if they do actually fit or not.

DeeKay
17-01-2011, 03:40
Okay then, ways to break the DA FAQ. Here goes...

1) DA get 3++ Terminators with FNP... oh, wait... BA can already do that... and they don't need a SC to do it.

2) DA also get unlimited range... on... their... Psychic Hoods. But nobody takes the DA libbies because they suck.

3) Termies as Troops... wait, wait, Space Wolves can do it too, and better. And they get Thunderwolves. Can't DA get Watcher-riders to balance it out?

Well that's my thoughts. DA still suck in the long run, but to be honest we all knew that the DA codex needed more than a few equipment adjustments.

With regards,
Dan.

Reflex
17-01-2011, 04:04
Hay.. so Im gonna be that guy and say..

But what about Necrons?

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
17-01-2011, 05:04
DeeKay, combine 1 and 3 in the same list. If I'm not mistaken, it costs a lot more to make Terminator Wolf Guard with TH/SS than the Deathwing option. By about 100 points.

nothingatall544
17-01-2011, 06:02
Yep the DA just got decent and fair play to those who stuck it out with the outdated dex instead of moving on to Codex: Ultramarines.

Im now looking forward to all those Chaos players who have just realised DA fit the theme perfectly for their own armies.

Give me a chaos book that doesn't suck, then I'll use it, kthxbye

the gribbly
17-01-2011, 06:07
While Im glad that I dont have to explain my "different version" of the same wargear to my opponents anymore, I am disappointed to see topics like this. C:DA is still not all that great, unless of course you've always liked robed marines with a dark secret :)
Space wolves and blood angels are both more powerful and more flexible codices, and with posts like this its only a matter of time before people get sick and tired of this new attitude and start tooling up to deal with it. Or plain refuse to play you. You see some of us enjoy the reputation we have built with our subpar codex. Please dont try to make us into the latest WAACers only army.
I cant wait until C:GK comes out so dark angels can meld back into the shadows and return to the hunt.

decker_cky
17-01-2011, 06:08
Belial himself is an incredible deal too (TH/SS w/ 3 wound for 130 pts?). But yeah, having that scoring killer unit for relatively cheap is a bonus.

You also forgot the heavy weapon those TH/SS terminators can take for DA.

Korraz
17-01-2011, 09:16
Give me a chaos book that doesn't suck, then I'll use it, kthxbye

There ya go. (http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1175/chaosspacemarines.jpg)

Thanatos_elNyx
17-01-2011, 09:39
A light hearted poke at those Chaos players who see new loyalist rules and desperately try to make it fit a CSM army it doesnt matter if they do actually fit or not.

I agree with Mr. 544.

The CSM book sucks a$$. I still use it though as none of the loyalist books do a good Thousand Sons list (ironically Space Wolves are the closest with their 4 Rune Priests).

So unless Blood Ravens come out or a new CSM book, I will have to stick to the current wreck. :(


Can't DA get Watcher-riders to balance it out?

:D How awesome would those models be!

Adra
17-01-2011, 09:40
A light hearted poke at those Chaos players who see new loyalist rules and desperately try to make it fit a CSM army it doesnt matter if they do actually fit or not.

Um...Black Legion Terminator Army...yay :P

This is the best argument to why you need a legions chaos codex instead of renegades....you can do renegades with all the other SM codex books :P

Dark Aly
17-01-2011, 10:36
While Im glad that I dont have to explain my "different version" of the same wargear to my opponents anymore, I am disappointed to see topics like this. C:DA is still not all that great, unless of course you've always liked robed marines with a dark secret :)
Space wolves and blood angels are both more powerful and more flexible codices, and with posts like this its only a matter of time before people get sick and tired of this new attitude and start tooling up to deal with it. Or plain refuse to play you. You see some of us enjoy the reputation we have built with our subpar codex. Please dont try to make us into the latest WAACers only army.
I cant wait until C:GK comes out so dark angels can meld back into the shadows and return to the hunt.

This, a hundred times this. I love my ravenwing and deathwing and don't want the enjoyment diminished by the hatred aimed towards 'bandwagoners' as I will inevitably end up collateral. (although thats unlikely with ravenwing- we will always be a bit rubbish :), but so much fun)

And what Adra says about a legion codex is also very true

MasterGideon
17-01-2011, 13:46
Dont forget we get better Thunder Hammers that everyone else just read the entry in the rule book, then read the codex version, DA/BT have a cracking version of Thunder Hammers....

MasterGideon

Born Again
17-01-2011, 13:47
Um...Black Legion Terminator Army...yay :P

This is the best argument to why you need a legions chaos codex instead of renegades....you can do renegades with all the other SM codex books :P

Except for all those renegades that include daemons, obliterators, berzerkers, plague marines etc in their forces... :shifty:

Cheexsta
17-01-2011, 14:02
Except for all those renegades that include daemons, obliterators, berzerkers, plague marines etc in their forces... :shifty:
Which could very easily be represented by a Legions book.

I honestly feel that a Legions-focused codex would satisfy all parties. Take the previous codex for example: I actually dislike the old codex for many reasons, mostly its over-complexity, but with that book you could make any kind of Chaos Space Marine army. Want a specific Legion? You could do that. Want a renegade army? You could to that, too. Want a mixed Legion army? Easy, if you don't mind losing some special rules.

And here we go, hijacking another thread. Dark Angels and Black Templars, have your clichéd day in the sun; ours will come eventually ;)

Born Again
17-01-2011, 14:23
Which could very easily be represented by a Legions book.

I honestly feel that a Legions-focused codex would satisfy all parties. Take the previous codex for example: I actually dislike the old codex for many reasons, mostly its over-complexity, but with that book you could make any kind of Chaos Space Marine army. Want a specific Legion? You could do that. Want a renegade army? You could to that, too. Want a mixed Legion army? Easy, if you don't mind losing some special rules.

And here we go, hijacking another thread. Dark Angels and Black Templars, have your clichéd day in the sun; ours will come eventually ;)

I was aiming at the suggestion renegades make do with the SM codex and sticking spikes on. But yes, this is off topic, DA have your day.

nothingatall544
17-01-2011, 16:43
There ya go. (http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1175/chaosspacemarines.jpg)

I said one that didn't suck, kthxbye

Mannimarco
17-01-2011, 16:45
One light hearted jab at the Chaos playing community over their codex hopping for theme and this happens ;).

Remember folks, Im a Chaos player to (and have been for a long time, every system Ive always played that games Chaos army) and know full well the problems OUR dex has, just pointing out the almost comical level of codex hopping that goes on depending on whose rules are the new shiny.

My point being that you just know sombody looked at the updated DA rules and thought "yep thats my Black Legion army there with one of Abaddons lieutenants (Belial) leading the Black Legion terminators in one of their speartip assaults. The new DA update is totally fluffy for a BL army." but yes that is very off topic.

DA players (the real ones): Enjoy your moment, you waited long enough for it. I for one look forward to potentially seeing more DA on the table instead of the same codex marines/SW/BA time after time.

AlphariusOmegon20
17-01-2011, 16:57
There ya go. (http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1175/chaosspacemarines.jpg)

He said one that DOESN'T suck.

You should have linked a pic of 3.5's cover.

MarshalFaust
17-01-2011, 17:10
The whole spirit of the OP leaves a bad taste in my mouth. what has happened to our hobby when the first thing that you think to do with an update is see how you can break it to stomp your opponents face in?

im really excited about the wargear updates and it was long overdue. just a simple update like this has breathed new life into the army and i even spent all weekend dusting off my all terminator army and painting up a few new additions. i hope GW see how this was a really good thing and makes more updates to army books in the future.

Ozendorph
17-01-2011, 17:22
While I'm thrilled with the update, I'm not really down with "abusing" rules or anything else. I'll be happy if the DA can just hold their own in a competitive setting, which it seems they'll be able to do if players use a DW or "doublewing" list. Regular PA builds don't benefit from the update (other than POTMS for Land Raiders I suppose) which is a shame, but it's better to have one or two competitive builds rather than none at all :)

I actually got to play against a Deathwing list at a doubles event on Saturday (paired with IG). It wasn't crazy impressive, but they did pull off a solid win against our daemons/DE...good stuff!

Furbs
17-01-2011, 17:38
As bad of a "taste" this may leave in ones mouth, and even though power gaming like this can be no fun for both parties at the gaming table.

I really think this should be discussed (And this is coming from an Eldar player).

I want to know what I may be going up against, because I'm sure everyone here has "That one guy" in their gaming group (I know I sure do!).

Cheese is never fun, but I would still like to know what the DA's meta-game will be like now.

Has anyone pointed out that on top of bringing 10 2+/3++ FNP Terminators to the table that can hold objectives, they can also mix and match their squads? Need more of a deathstar unit? just throw 2 chainfists in the squad and it can rip apart most anything, and sense the squad is so large the lack of a 3++ doesn't matter with wound distrubution (on top of the fact that anything doing 10+ wounds will be small arms fire which is still a 2+/FNP so a 5++ is less significant)

MarshalFaust
17-01-2011, 17:42
maybe i missed something in the FAQ but i thought the upgraded deathwing squad was still capped at 5, how are you getting 10 FNP terminators?

Ozendorph
17-01-2011, 17:46
You didn't miss anything - squad size is still locked at 5 termies. Even if you attach both HQs you can't get the unit above 7 models.

Korraz
17-01-2011, 17:47
He said one that DOESN'T suck.

You should have linked a pic of 3.5's cover.

There are no sucky dexes, just whiny little girls.

Groo The Wanderer
17-01-2011, 17:55
I think Furbs is confused, DW are still limited to 5 man, 1 hvy weapon per squad. I am overjoyed at the update as I have ALOT invested in my 130 strong Deathwing/ 60 Biker Ravenwing and for the last year it has not been out of the box once. My Ravenwing was an exception (I took a RW list to COnflict Scotland and did pretty good against ORK, IG/BA, and 'Nid lists) as it was at least semi-competative.

I think the leveling of the playing field a good move on GW's part and can only boost interest in an otherwise fading codex.

And also, I think RW benefits greatly as well. Sammaels RW squadron with 6 T5 bikers with apothicary and FNP, How awesome is that. I can see some of those Ork Nob Bikers running in fear now...... :)

Furbs
17-01-2011, 18:08
ah, then that is a problem, as i said I'm an eldar player ^^

sorry for the confusion

Groo The Wanderer
17-01-2011, 18:16
No worries :D As a matter of fact, while my DW/RW enjoyed alot of R&R, I branched into the Eldar and have made similar mistakes ;)

Happy Hunting everyone :)

GrogDaTyrant
17-01-2011, 18:31
There are no sucky dexes, just whiny little girls.

Or rather, just dexes stuck in a previous edition (or 2). The Chaos dex was fine... for the "hardly anything = more" design philosophy of 4th ed.

But I'm not saying 5th ed's 'Kitchen-Sink' design is any better.

TheDilz
17-01-2011, 19:52
He said one that DOESN'T suck.

You should have linked a pic of 3.5's cover.


There are no sucky dexes, just whiny little girls.

If you really believe there are no sucky codexes you are delusional.

Codex without internal balance suck.

GW has gone a long way towards making good books the last couple entries, but the older books really do suck in many ways.

Ozybonza
17-01-2011, 19:54
OK so it seems the fact that I used the term "abuse" has upset some people... perhaps it was a poor choice of wording.

There really won't be a way to make anything particularly cheesy from codex:DA, but we should be able to make some pretty hard lists and I want to talk about it - so hopefully someone can come up with some interesting ideas rather than complaining about my OP or the CSM codex?

/rant

Korraz
17-01-2011, 20:10
If you really believe there are no sucky codexes you are delusional.

Codex without internal balance suck.

GW has gone a long way towards making good books the last couple entries, but the older books really do suck in many ways.

I'd bother to answer, but your avatar tells me not to.

Kurgash
17-01-2011, 20:52
It's nice the DA got an errata bringing up their power, but that still doesn't change the fact they want to be Ultramarines.

AlphariusOmegon20
17-01-2011, 21:00
There are no sucky dexes, just whiny little girls.

The only "whiny little girls" I'm aware of playing 40k are those that claimed 3.5 was "ohnoezomfgbbq" broken/OP.

It was neither, and gave Chaos players what we wanted, which was LEGIONS. What we got for 5th was unmitigated crap.

Korraz
17-01-2011, 21:06
No wonder, since you got nothing to date for 5th. And 3rd wasn't op, it was broken in the sense of being a bloody mess. It was the Chains of Mephistopheles of WH40k.

uhmnabra
17-01-2011, 21:09
Ok DA sucked a lot, but look at my sig and we'll talk later.

Ozendorph
17-01-2011, 21:16
The only "whiny little girls" I'm aware of playing 40k are those that claimed 3.5 was "ohnoezomfgbbq" broken/OP.


Don't feed the trolls :)

Back on topic, I think it'd be worth experimenting with Belial, as many Terminator squads (cyclone + at least a couple TH/SS) as points allow, and max out on Typhoon Speeders. The Termies score, are hard as nails (particularly the FNP squad), and the army's krak missile output would be wicked. I wish I had my 'Dex here at work so I could see how the points would work out for this

Edit: After a bit of research it looks like you can do this:

Belial
DW Terminators - Cyclone, DW Banner, Apothecary
DW Terminators - Cyclone
Typhoon
Typhoon
Typhoon

All for the low low price of ~880pts

Havarel
17-01-2011, 22:59
Don't feed the trolls :)

Back on topic, I think it'd be worth experimenting with Belial, as many Terminator squads (cyclone + at least a couple TH/SS) as points allow, and max out on Typhoon Speeders. The Termies score, are hard as nails (particularly the FNP squad), and the army's krak missile output would be wicked. I wish I had my 'Dex here at work so I could see how the points would work out for this

Edit: After a bit of research it looks like you can do this:

Belial
DW Terminators - Cyclone, DW Banner, Apothecary
DW Terminators - Cyclone
Typhoon
Typhoon


Typhoon

All for the low low price of ~880pts

*Eyes begin to water*

Ouch, that's a lot of pain...

I was planning to redo my Deathwing contingent (have my Lysander model ready to convert to Belial and everything!), so I think this might be a good time. Anyone have any thoughts on what would work well as a 1500pt army?

Ozybonza
17-01-2011, 23:05
Too bad we can't take Typhoon squadrons.... but at least we can swap to a MM for free.