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Dr.Clock
09-02-2011, 21:14
And yet burna boys all have template weapons?? And Tankbustaz all have rokkit launchaz?

Thunderfire: multiple blasts - 5 ML long fangs as well... regular devs for that matter. Then there's the fact that an IG army can lob 9 pie-plates a turn from the HS section... and have small units with 3 blasts apiece.

Blasts and templates are resolved faster these days because there are no partials.

I'd be in favour of giving Spiders blast weapons, but not templates... they would need to get too close and you could easily lose shots if you can't avoid hitting your own models. Maybe an exarch upgrade for that??

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

LususNaturae
09-02-2011, 21:51
And yet burna boys all have template weapons?? And Tankbustaz all have rokkit launchaz?

Thunderfire: multiple blasts - 5 ML long fangs as well... regular devs for that matter. Then there's the fact that an IG army can lob 9 pie-plates a turn from the HS section... and have small units with 3 blasts apiece.

Blasts and templates are resolved faster these days because there are no partials.

I'd be in favour of giving Spiders blast weapons, but not templates... they would need to get too close and you could easily lose shots if you can't avoid hitting your own models. Maybe an exarch upgrade for that??

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Agreed. 12 or 18 inch range blast would be better than templates. Templates could easily rack up 40 to 60 hits, which may be viewed by some as OP. Blast weapons give the Spiders more range, but less hits, playing more to the style of the units. Plus, the shadow weaver and nightspinner are large blasts, and they're large versions of the Warp Spider guns.

Xarian
09-02-2011, 22:16
I'd be in favour of giving Spiders blast weapons, but not templates... they would need to get too close and you could easily lose shots if you can't avoid hitting your own models. Maybe an exarch upgrade for that??

I see your point about the range of the template (it's what, 8" total?), but keep in mind that the Spiders already have plenty of movement both before and after the shot. Also, that 2d6" could easily be changed to something less random. I don't think that hitting your own models would be too much of a problem unless your squad was huge.


12 or 18 inch range blast would be better than templates. Templates could easily rack up 40 to 60 hits, which may be viewed by some as OP. Blast weapons give the Spiders more range, but less hits, playing more to the style of the units. Plus, the shadow weaver and nightspinner are large blasts, and they're large versions of the Warp Spider guns.

"More range, less hits" is definitely not the style of Warp Spiders. They put out a lot of hits at 12" range, which is pretty much the opposite of what you're saying (and in 2nd ed. used templates). Also, the Shadow Weaver and Nightspinner cast a large web of monofilament over a long distance, leaving the web to come down almost vertically (they are artillery). Warp Spiders, on the other hand, are shooting their webs at nearly point blank range going horizontally - think of a police net gun, which would definitely not be resolved well with blast.

The comment about the large number of hits using a template is a good point, but can easily be resolved by reducing the squad size and by adjusting points values. Also, read Dr.Clock's post regarding the amount of template/blast weaponry present in already-existing armies.

Fraggle
09-02-2011, 22:45
Quote

Add in the new hulls that we already know are coming END QUOTE

What new hulls are coming?

Eumerin
09-02-2011, 23:13
Quote

Add in the new hulls that we already know are coming END QUOTE

What new hulls are coming?

I suspect that he's assuming we're going to see at least some of the new Forgeworld vehicles for the Eldar appear in our next codex.

Aside from that, the only "new" vehicle that can be assumed to appear with some certainty - at least that I'm aware of - is a flyer of some sort, similar to what the Dark Eldar received.

LususNaturae
09-02-2011, 23:45
"More range, less hits" is definitely not the style of Warp Spiders. They put out a lot of hits at 12" range, which is pretty much the opposite of what you're saying (and in 2nd ed. used templates). Also, the Shadow Weaver and Nightspinner cast a large web of monofilament over a long distance, leaving the web to come down almost vertically (they are artillery). Warp Spiders, on the other hand, are shooting their webs at nearly point blank range going horizontally - think of a police net gun, which would definitely not be resolved well with blast.


"More range, less hits" was in comparison to templates. Sorry for not clarifying. And I consider it more like the style because Spiders to me play "keep away" where they dance in and out of close range, harrassing enemy units but staying out of charge range. The template would not work with this IMO, because it's too close for keep away, unless the 2D6 was changed (move 12 jump 12 would work, but I could never see GW doing that, lol)

I definitely see you point from a fluff perspective compared to the shadow weaver/nightspinner though. I think either way could be made to work, and it fills a nice "template" aspect without creating new units.

Hendarion
10-02-2011, 05:40
I'm not a fan of the blast-Spider-idea. Currently 5 Spiders have 10 shots and like 6 hits. Out of 5 templates how many will hit something? 2? So you actually gotta be lucky to get 6 hit after that change to blast. Spiders in the past had the flamer template. Imo they should get it back. Include rending to get it in shape with the Night Spinner. Give the Night-Spinner alternate close-range shooting-mode with 2 templates, similar way as the Hellhound or Warp Hunter.

Vaktathi
10-02-2011, 05:56
With BS4, a model has a ~60% chance to hit the originally targeted model with a small blast template (not necessarily centered, but still touching). 33% chance to score a "hit" on the scatter dice, and out of the 66% deviation chance, any roll of 6 or lower will hit the original model (any roll of 4 or lower of course hits as a result of BS subtraction, the 1.5" template width, assuming you center it over a model, gives you another 2" functionally on scatter)



So no, with 5 templates, you definitely shouldn't be hitting with only two. You should be hitting a targeted infantry unit with at *least* three blasts most of the time, probably closer to an average of 4.


And none of this is taking the chance to hit multiple models into account.

As an IG player who regularly fields armies with upwards of 20 blast weapons in an army, I can tell you that blast weapons are not anywhere near as inaccurate as you fear.

insectum7
10-02-2011, 06:19
This is deliberate - the Warp Spiders had template weapons up until the start of 3rd, when GW decided it took too long to work out. If you want a blast or template Aspect, give the Warp Spiders theirs back.

Yeah, I think "Taking too long" is a great reason to NOT give them blast weapons IMO. Potentially the same reason for keeping them off Template as well. Honestly I don't see the complaint about their current weapons, S 6 is pretty good.

If one really felt the need to boost them I would go for Ignore Cover (so it acts similar to a template weapon, keeps the 12" range, keeps it quick, has ability that differs from other units)



Include rending to get it in shape with the Night Spinner.

I'm against Rending unless there is some serious adjustment to strength. Otherwise Warp Spiders would begin to make Dragons obsolete as tank hunters. Can you imagine 20 S 6 Rending shots vs. any vehicle? Better yet, don't. :)

Dr.Clock
10-02-2011, 06:27
Template = assault weapon.

In order to get a decent number of hits, you can't sit comfortably at even 6" - best to get right up so that the template almost goes through the unit.

Basically, it will make Spiders far harder to use, but much, much nastier when they go off... This is not a BAD THING... just something to be more aware of. The price would probably have to be slightly higher, as you'd use fewer of them

I accept that the Slicing Orbs will never happen... and are basically superfluous.

Moving on: thinking of Spider models.

I think I'll go on record saying that the original Exarch is a really great concept. It might be interesting to introduce a more serious 'chassis' for aspects.
For those of us who remember, 3-man aspect squads were kinda neat. Why NOT do a unit along the lines of Eldar Crisis ?? The Spectres are a nod in that direction as the first jet-pack eldar...

It makes sense to me that the Warp-Generator would have to be somewhat larger... so strap a small Grav-engine and power-field on there for kicks! Slightly larger than the Spectres, smaller than the cockpit of a Walker.

Now Hawks and Spiders will be waaaay different... Fast Attack would have long-range harassment light jump-infantry, Anti-MC/vehicle CC bikes, flexible mid-range light vehicles and close-range generalist heavy jump-infantry.

I guess Spiders are heavy infantry in a way... and I'd be loathe for them to have T4... but a 2+ save and a couple wounds might be cool. Basically, roll two spiders into one model to have guys with extra spinner arms, pairs of CCW (not power-weapons, except on Exarch) and HUGE backpacks on flying stands.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Poseidal
10-02-2011, 06:59
I have toyed with the idea of making hem assault 1 small blast weapons. They aren't as instantly accurate as Template but become more anti horde if they are allowed rending (though rending may not even be needed).

They act a bit like the Dark Eldar shredder.

Hellebore
10-02-2011, 07:08
If you made them assault 1 Blast then they would be identical to dark eldar shredders.

In 2nd ed they used the heavy flamer template, so they were even nastier than they would be using the current flamer template.

Give them flamer templates and have their Strength value compare to the target's Initiative. This is a similar way in which they worked in 2nd ed, where the only thing protecting you was your reflexes.

EDIT: The dark eldar seem to understand weapon design better than their craftworld cousins. The blaster is superior to a death spinner, uses the same technology as the death spinner, yet is 1/3rd the size. If you look at craftworld eldar weaponry there is this disturbing inverse trend whereby the the bigger the weapon gets, the shorter its range becomes. A shuriken catapult is as big or bigger than a lasgun yet has half the range. A shuriken pistol is the size of a space marine bolter. The wraithcannon's range is only 8x the weapon's length (yes, a wraithCANNON is about 1.5 inches long...) and the new shadow spectres carry guns as big as brightlances with the range of a pistol.

God I hate GW's eldar rules.

Hellebore

Ravariel
10-02-2011, 08:28
Good Dr. I have to say that your idea sounds positively outstanding. Making Spiders T3 2W 2+ Sv models on 40mm or flying bases and some ability to customize the squad into a true assault threat (one Exarch w/powerblades does not a CC unit make, after all)... at 35-40 pts and 3-5 unit size? I'd be interested to see how that works out. Perhaps I'll write up some rules, and playtest them against my usual opponents. I'll make sure to post the results of any testing as I get it.

@ Fraggle and Eumerin: Yes, that is what I meant. I assume we'll be seeing in-codex rules for, if nothing else, the Nightspinner... considering we already have a kit for it in with our usual Prism. I would somewhat expect the Firestorm, Hornet and (maybe not but we can hope) Warp Hunter to show up as well. Perhaps "know" was strong, but with the "summer of flyers" I think the Eldar will be on the receiving end of some goodness, and it would be folly for GW to not put them in codex and sell us more plastic crack, no?

Poseidal
10-02-2011, 09:05
I think I did make it identical to the shredder (as they are both Monofilament net gun), though since it's so much bigger I think adding a special rule would be the only way to work it?

With the old rules, it had a -2 save modifier which made it nasty too. Now, with the awful AP system you can guarantee Power Armour gets it's save against the I check version.

Ironically, Eldar used to be about miniaturisation or improvement. The Brightlance was a Lascannon, but smaller and more efficient. The Shuriken Catapult was a Storm Bolter, but better. The current rules are just nonsense.

Shamana
10-02-2011, 09:23
With Spiders, I'd like to have several options, maybe "totems" within the aspect:

- the weaver of ruin: "web" templates, lower strength, more hits (possibly checks against I or S), causes difficult and possibly dangerous terrain checks if the unit moves.
- the slashing web (the current weapon) - higher strength compared to the other weapon configurations, poss. slightly higher range and/or rending:
- the slaying bile: the CC configuration of the aspect, higher number of attacks (possibly armed with pistol-versions of the weaver) and able to assault after the DS. They don't have to be necessary multiwound monsters able to take on Khorne's chosen or death company BAs imo - just good enough in assault to do nasty damage where it hurts. How does the current profile with an extra attack from a pistol (Web Blaster, S6, AP -, pistol, range 12) and envenomed blades wounding at 3+ sound, at around the current model cost?

Also, give them the option to take grenades: haywire (Dawn of War got it right), defensive, and plasma. How does that sound?

Hellebore
10-02-2011, 09:49
That's exactly the sort of thing I was describing previously with the different options within each aspect. :cool:

Same theme expressed differently.

Hellebore

Poseidal
10-02-2011, 09:55
If an Incubi clone had to be made, either an Executioner armed Banshee variant or two-handed Chainsword Scorpion variant will fit the purpose (rather than a sudden new CC aspect), though I don't know how well that would fly.

Shamana
10-02-2011, 10:26
The incubi are already somewhat of a banshee/scorpion hybrid since they get higher strength weapons, 3+ armor on one hand, and power weapon and fleet on the other. I don't see if a mirror is needed, per se. However, the idea of "lodges" / "totems" / "fighting styles" within the aspects can lead to something like that - banshees that specialize in stronger attacks (as opposed to making more attacks), kind of like an executioner exarch.

Hendarion
10-02-2011, 11:34
Can you imagine 20 S 6 Rending shots vs. any vehicle? Better yet, don't. :)
You got 20 Warp Spiders in your list? Interesting.

Shamana
10-02-2011, 11:48
The spinner still is an Assault 2 weapon, I believe ;) . Also, while it could cause a lot of hurt to vehicles if it were rending, it still has to contend with the AP - problem. Most vehicles have rear armor which the spinner can already penetrate, actually; the rending buff would make it nastier against the front/side armor of vehicles and against heavy infantry.

A lot of S6 rending shots with AP - is quite interesting, in fact. You may never blow stuff up and seldom wreck it, but you pretty much guarantee that it will neither shoot nor fire. Quite thematic for an aspect based on a spider, actually.

Hendarion
10-02-2011, 11:51
Well, I didn't mean to make it Assault 2 Template, but Assault 1 Template of course (as noted in my previous post ;)). Which flamer has 2 shots anyway?

Shamana
10-02-2011, 12:07
Ah, ok, I thought you meant the current spinner for some reason, since the post you quoted talked about "shots".

Inquisitor Kallus
10-02-2011, 12:27
Reflex: Vypers could be squadded-up like that. Hornets too if they make the Codex.

Falcons, Prisms, Warp Hunters etc (NOT Wave Serpents) could be handled by single Star Eagle pilots. That's what I'd call 'em. 0-2 choice (a squad pf Vypers counts as one), 20-30 points each, grants BS4 and Skilled Rider to the vehicle they pilot. Add 60 points for the Charge of Alean Aspect Power, which confers the Deep Strike ability to the vehicle or squad of vehicles piloted. The vehicle would count as moving Flat Out until the Eldar player's next turn, and the Scatter dice to Deep Strike could be re-rolled.

Autarchs count as Scoring.

Swooping Hawk Exarchs get a Haywire grenade launcher, as well as the Exarch power Master of the Sky: the unit may re-roll the Scatter Dice when they Deep Strike. Lasblasters become Str 4.

Bonesingers.

Farseers gain the ability to "force" their powers to work even when nullified.

Solitaire. NOT an HQ choice. What army would follow one?

Fire Prism: Crystal Targeting Matrix: ignores the rules for firing Blast weapons. Roll to hit normally using its Ballistic Skill.

War Walkers: move to Fast Attack.

Dark Reapers: +5 points/model: Reaper Targeting Vanes: reaper launchers ignore cover saves.

Phoenix Lords: gain a blanket 5+ invulnerable save, except Asurmen. The Lords count the Aspect squad they join as Scoring.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.



I like most of this. I still feel that Lasblasters should not be the equivalent strength of a Boltgun though, I think strength 3 suits them more, but rather give them more shots. Their speed echoed by their number of shots would potentially help make them a 'clean-up' unit' and the image of lots of wings, feathers and shots all blurred is quite a cool one.

I feel Phoenix Lords are still too vulnerable for their background status and should perhaps have an Inv. save of 4+, reperesenting their speed, reflexes and 'legendary' qualities', with Asurmen receiving 3+ possibly although a re-rollable save might fit more.

Frimbleglim
10-02-2011, 12:41
The more recent fluff makes refference to an aspect called the crystal dragons. I dont' know what this would be but it sounds pretty cool.

What would I like to see?

An eldar vehicule with access ports somewhere other than at the back. Maybe even an open topped vehicule. I want a way to get my banshees scorpians and harlequins assulting from a vehicule effectively.

I once read a story in a white dwarf in which aspect warriors sumersault out of moving wave serpent staight into combat. I would love to be able to do that in game.

Other than that I would like the portable webway portal back so I could play a strike force army. (like the old ulthwe strike force list).

Finaly I want harlequin soletairs back. They were very cool. 13 attacks in the turn you assault? From one infantry model? Yes please!

webba84
10-02-2011, 13:14
The more recent fluff makes refference to an aspect called the crystal dragons. I dont' know what this would be but it sounds pretty cool.

What would I like to see?

An eldar vehicule with access ports somewhere other than at the back. Maybe even an open topped vehicule. I want a way to get my banshees scorpians and harlequins assulting from a vehicule effectively.


Storm Serpent would be what you're looking for. It's in the eldar epic list as a superheavy but it could easily be included in 40k as the Eldar 'land raider' so to speak.

Dunklezahn
10-02-2011, 13:54
Giving an Eldar unit that isn't Swooping Hawks the ability to charge a unit more than 18" away would be nice even space marines manage 20" with assault units in transports, 18"+d6 for Shrike powered jump packers. The best the Eldar can manage is 18 and that jetbikes and people who get a 1 in 6 fleet roll (which of course Scorpions can't even use)

Whether this needs to be a new unit or an ability that allows a unit to charge from a vehicle I dont know because even that would mean charging out the back of the Serpent but at the moment Eldar on foot have a better charge range than those in a transport...

Compare that to things like Raveners (Cavalry in general) jump packs, anyone with open topped, marine assault vehicles like the stormraven and the "lithe and graceful" Eldar seem positively slow by comparison.

Sai-Lauren
10-02-2011, 14:44
Giving an Eldar unit that isn't Swooping Hawks the ability to charge a unit more than 18" away would be nice even space marines manage 20" with assault units in transports, 18"+d6 for Shrike powered jump packers. The best the Eldar can manage is 18 and that jetbikes and people who get a 1 in 6 fleet roll (which of course Scorpions can't even use)

Whether this needs to be a new unit or an ability that allows a unit to charge from a vehicle I dont know because even that would mean charging out the back of the Serpent but at the moment Eldar on foot have a better charge range than those in a transport...

Compare that to things like Raveners (Cavalry in general) jump packs, anyone with open topped, marine assault vehicles like the stormraven and the "lithe and graceful" Eldar seem positively slow by comparison.
Hence my earlier suggestion of a Wave Serpent "assault into tank shocked unit" field option :)

Shamana
11-02-2011, 08:50
I have a question about the holofield - it might not be directly related to new units, but it's one of the most important parts of eldar vehicle wargear. How would you like to see it work?

Personally, I find the link between a holo-field and rerolling damage results quite low, and the psychological effect on your opponent can be quite nasty (turning that vehicle wrecked result to crew stunned... oops, shaken - in a mechanic not used by other units), which imo contributed a lot to the "cheeze falcon" accusations of 4E. I'd much rather either make it the vehicle concealed (and upgrade the cover save of moving flat-out) costing around 20-25 points or force all successful to-hit roll rolls to be rerolled (20-35, depending if it affects melee attacks). What would you like to see, and how would you price it?

Hendarion
11-02-2011, 10:06
Pricing no clue. But I think make it 5++ normal and 3++ on flat out.

Hellebore
11-02-2011, 10:30
IMO the holofield should work as follows:

5+ cover when moving up to 6"
4+ cover when moving up to 12"
3+ cover when moving more than 12"

Although I'd prefer that fast vehicles received this sort of thing anyway and holofields allowed for re-rolls. Fast/skimmers vehicles still have low armour values now but get no benefit for that artificially lowered value. They used to trade low armour for glancing hits. Now they trade low armour for... nothing. A 4+ cover save only works on FAST skimmers, so the tau skimmers suck. And a 4+ cover save can be received from having infantry in front of you, so a leman russ with its absurd 14 armour can get the same protection that a falcon needs to waste its entire turn to get, and still fire all its weapons and so on.


Holofields then can be put on war walkers (as they work on titans) who will generally not get a high save, but will still get one. They might even move out of cover more often...

Hellebore

Dunklezahn
11-02-2011, 10:58
Hence my earlier suggestion of a Wave Serpent "assault into tank shocked unit" field option :)

It's the obvious answer but has ramifications depending on how far you want to take it. Changing the vehicle itself means any squad in there can charge out, adding it to certain units limits the ability of the Serpent to be used in that way.

Do we want Scorpions, Councils, Storm Guard, potential CC Wraithguard and the like to be able to charge from there or do we want to see it as something limited to certain units representing their skill?

I find it odd that an assault vehicle has the door is on the back being the major point

Cosmic_Girl
11-02-2011, 12:01
How about a list where half of it isn't an auto-choice and the other half is playable.

Things I would like in the Eldar codex:

*Some kind of strategic benefit from Autarchs e.g. Reserve manipulation/+1 to first turn/sieze/Eldradesque unit redeployment/confer outflank to certain units etc... and less emphasis on their personal combat ability.

*Highly effective psychic lockdown as well as some form of "Irresistable Force" style mechanic e.g. if the result of the psychic test is less than a 5, the power cannot be nullified.

*More survivability and lower numbers across the board in keeping with the elitist style of the Eldar.

C-girl.

Frimbleglim
11-02-2011, 12:16
I agree with those points C-girl but i think it's unlikly for economic reaons.

As an aside I don't think you mean "elitist". That means something quite different.

Sai-Lauren
11-02-2011, 13:18
It's the obvious answer but has ramifications depending on how far you want to take it. Changing the vehicle itself means any squad in there can charge out, adding it to certain units limits the ability of the Serpent to be used in that way.

Do we want Scorpions, Councils, Storm Guard, potential CC Wraithguard and the like to be able to charge from there or do we want to see it as something limited to certain units representing their skill?

See where you're coming from, taken to the extreme it would be "unit x in Wave Serpent" as many times as you can fit in the points. But fitting it to the unit doesn't feel right to me.


Banshees, yes (maybe couple it as an extra ability of their Masks, or an Exarch "shrine" power* as we've been talking about).
Scorpions, maybe not - they have the heavier armour and tend to infiltration. If they use Serpents, chances are it'd be to carry them to a place to hold or terrain to infiltrate through, then the Serpent goes off and plays gunship.
Seer Councils, no - they're psykers, not turbo-combat-nutters :). Farseer bodyguards, fine: High WS for their ability to foresee enemy attacks and avoid them, great: Pointy-eared Assault Marines, no, sorry.
Storm Guardians, yes, although if it becomes a Banshee Mask/Exarch ability, then have different field options (maybe the 2nd edition Epic wave effect to scatter enemies - or other field options that I'm sure we can come up with :)).
CC Wraithguard, again, maybe not. Heavier armour, Wraithsight slowing them, and the old Ghost Warrior role (infiltration assassins) kind of plays against it.

* - If we go down this route, the shrine powers would have to be one instance/army outside of Apocalypse, otherwise it'd be Wave Banshee spam (and even then, youre probably looking at 3 Wave Serpent/Banshee units in formation - the one with the rule hits the enemy unit, then the other two pile in next turn to get the Masks again if there's anything left).



I find it odd that an assault vehicle has the door is on the back being the major point

Not if they can assault into Tank Shock - the vehicle's buzzed through the unit, scattered them everywhere, then the troops jump out the back and hit them. :D

AlexHolker
11-02-2011, 14:09
I like Sai-Lauren's Wave Serpent suggestion: it provides a distinct role for the vehicle that combines well with what we already know about it.

Shamana
11-02-2011, 14:20
I think an assault ramp upgrade, especially if it provides a second exit point at the front, can take care of that well enough :) . No need to make some obscure "Can assault after tank shocking" rule no other race has when you can simply give it a well-known and understood rule (assault vehicle).

Xarian
11-02-2011, 14:43
I'm in favor of making transport-assaults an upgrade to whatever squads deserve it - Banshees, maybe storm guardians.

With Banshees, it'd be easy to make an exarch power for it (roll it into Acrobatics, or make a new one). Not sure with storm guardians - maybe just as a standard upgrade, or even default for the unit? As a default ability I think that it would be pretty good and would get away from the whole "guardians are cannon fodder" truism that's prevalent currently.

I don't like the idea of making a generic "assault ramps" upgrade for Eldar transports, though. I think that it'd make striking scorpions and warlocks overly powerful. Not sure where to stand with characters/other HQ, either.

AlexHolker
11-02-2011, 14:53
I think an assault ramp upgrade, especially if it provides a second exit point at the front, can take care of that well enough :)
The Falcon hull is unsuited to such an addition, and I doubt the Wave Serpent's energy field would improve the situation. Even if it was, Sai-Lauren's suggestion would make use of the vehicle's existing strengths, while yours would turn it into a Land Raider rip-off.

Kellindel
11-02-2011, 15:32
I would like to see the current aspects get a bump before we see new aspects. Why create new ones when there are plenty of aspects that cover all area's??

A new CC aspect is pointless when you already have Scorps and Banshee's. Dark Reapers are good enough for what they do. Avengers have gotten a decent bump but I would have liked to have seen it go further.

Scorpions IMO are still hurting. They are not really the best at what they need to do. Banshee's will always be a better selection for CC which shouldn't be the case.

I would LOVE to see Warp Spiders return to their 2nd edition ways and have a template instead of assault 2. Don't have to give them back their Rending rule, but having them with a template would be awesome. Granted it would come at a point hike. But well worth it.

I think the Autarch should be able to get a bodyguard unit. You can either get Warlocks (to help him convey his orders around the battlefield) or more skilled Guardians. In a way you could use the Autarch's LD for any guardian squad that has a Warlock.

The Assault Ramp for the WaveSerpent is a bad idea. As pointed out already, the hull just isn't built for it. Unless they returned to the old armorcast design which had it as a open-topped land boat. Hopefully they get the Venom added to the list, or a Craftworld version of a Venom. Small 6 man transports would be nice to get certain CC units out to when they need to be instead of using a Falcon.

But then again the Falcon can do almost the same thing, granted at a higher ticket price.

Hendarion
11-02-2011, 15:36
I would like to see the current aspects get a bump before we see new aspects. Why create new ones when there are plenty of aspects that cover all area's??
Why make new movies and books if we got movies and books for all areas?
Just for the excitement.


A new CC aspect is pointless when you already have Scorps and Banshee's.
I disagree. We got an aspect with power weapons at S3 and non-power weapons on S4. Not really impressive.


Dark Reapers are good enough for what they do.
I disagree again. The purpose of reapers is to take out high-toughness infantry with good saves. They fail to do since 4+ cover is everywhere.

Frimbleglim
11-02-2011, 15:54
Some nice ideas there Kellindel.

I have had another thought. Why are Guardians rather than aspect warriors troops?

In the Path of the warrior book and all the other fluff I have read (sometimes even ulthwe fluff) the eldar armies are mostly made up of aspect warriors.

Guardians like Wraith Constructs are only called upon in truely dire situations. In any case, why should an aspect warior squad such as dark reapers or fire dragons be less able to defend an objective than a Guardian squad. They are better trained so surely they should be the best at it.

IMO the force organisation chart should be more along the lines of.

Troops: Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpians, Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers, Rangers, Guardian Jetbikes (to keep the Saim Han option open)

Elietes: Wraith Guard (but keep the troops option for 10 strong squads), Guardian Defender, Guardian Storm, Harlequins.

Fast Attack: Vipers, Shining Spears, Warp Spiders

Heavy Support: Support Weapon Battery, Wraithlord, War Walker, Falcon, Fire Prism

Ulthwe themed list would still be possible by taking Guardian Jetbikes and rangers as core and Guardian Defenders and storm squad as elietes.

Shamana
11-02-2011, 16:19
Even if it was, Sai-Lauren's suggestion would make use of the vehicle's existing strengths, while yours would turn it into a Land Raider rip-off.

Ouch, that hurt. The thing is, the raider isn't the only vehicle that allows assaulting after it moved. Why should it be any harder for trained eldar warriors to jump down from a serpent and then assault than it is orks jumping down from a wagon or marine scouts from a storm speeder? Heck, marines can assault after hitting the ground in a freaking drop pod - you'd think that would slow them down :) .

At any rate, to me it seems that if the eldar warriors can jump up right into battle from a serpent that had moved through an enemy unit (with all the resistance that might entail), there's little reason they can't dismount and charge. Sure, it might involve a fair bit of agility and training - but these aren't exactly in short supply in any aspect. If there is a specialized assault transport or a venom-esque open-topped speeder, no problem - but as it is, I'd prefer if any aspect has at least the option to assault from the serpent for any infantry unit.

@ Xarian: I'd say there is no "overly powerful." There is "good for its points," or "too weak / OP for its points." Besides, scorpions have a long way to go before they can be OP. They are a T3 3+ model, at the end of it all.

CelestialDragonKing
11-02-2011, 16:26
Why make new movies and books if we got movies and books for all areas?
Just for the excitement.

I disagree. We got an aspect with power weapons at S3 and non-power weapons on S4. Not really impressive.

I disagree again. The purpose of reapers is to take out high-toughness infantry with good saves. They fail to do since 4+ cover is everywhere.

I agree. We are sick of the "same old same old" I've had the same Warp Spider figs since they came out, what 15+? years ago.

There's many different things that can be done to reflect an aspect of Khaine. I made my own aspect that uses the eldar power glove I call The Bloody Hands of Khaine. They are dramatically different than Scorps or Banshees. Like I said before I'd me happy with an aquatic aspect just for the sake of something new.

I'd love the ability to upgrade tanks to an aspect? Think of an aspect dedicated to using tanks! Expensive but fun! For +X amount of points you upgrade a tank to be this aspect which then gives +1 BS and "insert special ability here". And don't even need a new fig for it!

Hendarion
11-02-2011, 16:47
Yea, the 15+ years argument is basically why I made this topic. Yea, we got some other variants of Falcons or one or two other characters and an additional aspect, but basically the very same troops and choices ever since 2nd Edition.

Rlyehable
11-02-2011, 16:59
To add a new Aspect Warrior, you first need to define the "aspect" of the current ones (to avoid duplication).

Dark Reapers: Aspect of the Destroyer. Heavy weapons at range.

Dire Avengers: Aspect of Well-Rounded Combatant? Numbers. Ranged and CC ability.

Fire Dragons: Aspect of the Heat of Battle. Melta/Flamer.

Howling Banshees: Aspect of the Kill Strike. Power Weapons.

Pathfinders: Not an aspect, but should be IMO. The aspect of Death from Nowhere. Sniper. I would give Exarch a power to pick a specific model from a squad for unit to target.

Shadow Spectors: ?
I am unsure what their roll is.

Shining Spears: Swift Strike. Jetbike with heavy first CC round, but weaker later CC rounds.

Star Falcons: Air/Space combat.

Striking Scorpions: ?
This aspect, IMHO, tries to do too much. Is the aspect of strength? Toughness (3+ armor)? Stealth (infiltrate)? Rain of blows (number of attacks)? IMHO, this aspect should be diversified into several.

Swooping Hawks: ?
Again, this unit tries to do too much, and so fails. Rain of Fire/Anti-horde? Mobile Fire? Grenade Pack? Anti-skimmer? The aspect/purpose needs to be clearly defined.

Warp Spiders: Aspect of Surprise Attack? Warp Jump/Teleport.



So what does that leave?

Wyrm Riders: Aspect of the War Machine. BS:4 vehicles with Skilled Pilot + Exarch powers to effect all of his aspect.

Sand Storm: Aspect of Rain of Blows: 5+ attacks each at S:3. Only if Scorpions are away from numerous attacks.

Poison Frog: Aspect of Hidden Danger: 2+ poisoned attacks.

Ghost Strike: Aspect of Attack from Nowhere: Hidden Placement assaulters. Ability to "re-hide". Only if Scorpions are tilted away from stealth.

Jugarnaught: Aspect of Invulnerablility: 2+/2+i save, T3. Slow and Purposeful. Medium ranged and close combat ability. Eldar equivilent to storm shield terminators. Only if Scorpians are tilted away from heavy armor.

Doppleganger: Aspect of Misdirection/Illusion: Place 2x "fake" models per real model of this aspect. "Fake" and real models shoot and close combat. "Fake" models are assigned wounds as if real models, but do not count for combat resolution, casualty count (being below half strength, loosing 25% to shooting, etc.). Exarch power to move one objective marker after enemy has deployed.

Shnerg
11-02-2011, 17:14
HQ thingy. Like Gift of Chaos, but it turns friendly models passing a test into WG.

Frimbleglim
11-02-2011, 17:17
That is not quite right.

Dark Reapers: Aspect of the Kain as he is tainted by the essence of the nightbringer.

Dire Avengers: Aspect of Kain when he defends the eldar race. Righteousness
or possibly when he attacked the other gods at Assuran's bidding.

Fire Dragons: Aspect of Kain as he destroys material possessions and homes.

Howling Banshees: Aspect of Kain when he removed the hand of the crone goddess and gained a portion of her power

Striking Scorpians: Aspect that Kain took on when he cut of his toe and sent it as a scorpian to wound an eldar hero and turn him on his kin.

Swooping Hawk: Aspect of the spirit bird of guilt that plagues murderers

Shining Spear: Aspect of Kain as a mounted knight.

Warp Spider: Aspect of Kain as the crystal creatures that defend the infinity circuit from alien psychic pressences.

Pathfinders: Definitely not an aspect. These don't even wear a war mask.

Star Falcons: Also not an aspect

Shadow Spectors: No idea, forge world nonsense.

Kellindel
11-02-2011, 17:37
So basically what everyone is talking about is instead of fixing what needs to be fixed, why not scrap it all and make totally new stuff??

You really think GW is going to invest the time and money to make new stuff and not find a way to push their current line?? Well I mean any line that isn't a Space Marine chapter .....

Fix the problems with the current list, and then work on a way to make something new if it is feasible.

I still don't see what everyone is complaining about. Make your own unit, test it out, and then run it in friendly games....

Hell, the old Rogue Trader game we were able to make any unit you wanted to play. One guy used his Wood Elves and the bows were evil.

As for the Aspect Listing above, if I'm remembering the history right, the Warp Spiders are technically not an Aspect. It was an Aspect that was based of the Crystal Spiders that lived in the Wraithbone, not an Aspect of Khaine.

Rlyehable
11-02-2011, 18:00
So basically what everyone is talking about is instead of fixing what needs to be fixed, why not scrap it all and make totally new stuff??
No, but the purpose of the thread was:

I don't wanna discuss here what tweaks the current Eldar units could get for their new Codex, but more about what (new) units you would like to see included for the next Eldar Codex.

Frimbleglim
11-02-2011, 18:08
Yes, crystal "spiders" (but possibly 6 leged judging by the aspect symble) living in the infinity circuit. However I'm sure it has to be linked to kain somehow if only because the spiders are also fighting a war or somthing similarly sketchy.

boogaloo
11-02-2011, 18:47
Well, it's kinda hard to talk about those in vacuum, but you are right - I might have forgotten some of the OP statement :) .

Anyway, what would you think of the idea of having mini-farseers - weaker seers (1-2 wounds, single or two powers, can only cast one) of which you can take several in an elite slot, like how BAs can take sangunary priests? This could tie in with the boneseer unit, as a possible "upgrade" of the seers.

One of the things that I always thought would be real cool was to add a warlock "Acolyte" to a farseer as wargear basiclly. So they both keep IC status, and the Acolyte can not leave the farseer. This way you can sort of stack Warlock powers (acolyte can take embolden and join a squad with a conceal warlock) *Note you can not stack the same power. (Perhaps you could stack enhance? 4+cover guardians/wraithguard are really the only abusable use of this) The idea of 2 destructors and 2 flamers in a storm guardian retinue is kinda nice as well.

Can you imagine the possibilities of an enhanced acolyte with fortune doom warlock in a tarpit DA squad.

The other thing that I think would be cool is to set "Schools of Farsight" where warlocks can only take powers from the school that the farseer teaches (has learned).

The other thing that I would actually like to see happen is a splitting up of autarchs in to Strategy vs Offensive Power autarchs. Maybe make the former a "School of Farsight" Things liek divination could be a power in there, as well as the Master Strategist being a psychic power (which would also sort of nerf it)

As for the Combat Autarchs I really feel that they need to be able to select up to two Exarch powers. Once again nothing REALLY game breaking in there. the ability to have an aspect squad hit and run, with bladestorm seems to be the one that stands out the most off the top of my head. This could also potentialy be solved by "Schools of combat".. The autarch can mix and match two. That way you don't end up with an autarch with power weapon, fusion gun tank hunter and fast shot WJG. You could still do the autarch with Fast shot tank hunter and fusion gun... But this guy has no access to assault or mobility upgrades.

Squallish
11-02-2011, 19:00
Copied from my fandex:

Shellguard Sentinels

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3/4 1 4 1 8 3+
Exarch 5 5 3 3/4 1 5 2 9 3+
Wargear: Defensive Grenades
Shell Shield: The effect of this is that the model gains +1 Toughness, Defensive Grenades and a 3+ Invulnerable Save.
Guardian Glaive: The enemy only ever hits on a 5+, regardless of comparative WS.

Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful
Shield Wall: When an enemy targets another Eldar unit that would gain a Cover Save from a unit of Shellguard Sentinels, then the target Eldar unit gains a 3+ Cover Save instead of a 4+.

Exarch Powers:
Glaive Mastery: The Exarch has the Preferred Enemy USR.
Shield Mastery: The Exarch has the Feel No Pain USR.


======

Warseer
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 4 3 3 3 5 3 10 -

Wargear: Witchblade, Runic Armour, Shuriken Pistol, Ghosthelm

Special Rules: Power of the Mind, Fleet, Psyker, Independent Character
Force Unleashed: All close combat attacks made by a Warseer have the Rending special rule, in addition to their normal effects.
Psychic Parry: A Warseer has the Feel No Pain USR. When the Warseer may not make his Feel No Pain roll (for example, against power weapons, AP1, AP2 or Instant Death), he may make a Psychic Test, provided he is able. If he passes the Psychic Test, then he may take the FNP roll without condition.

Psychic Powers (see page X): Cripple, Wither, Entangle, Veil, Intensity, Destroyer (feel free to read the Fandex, as these powers would just fill this post up)

========

Alain'tar the Outcast

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
3 4 3 3 1 4 2 10 4+

Wargear: Shuriken Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Ranger Rifle, Meshweave Armour (4+)

Special Rules: Fleet, Infiltrate, Stealth, Move Through Cover, Scout, Acute Senses, Master Snipers, From the Shadows, Unerring Accuracy

Keenest Eye: Alain'tar can allocate wounds caused in shooting to any model in the unit he shot at. In addition, his shots inflict Instant Death on a roll to wound of 6.

Timed Ambush: Alain'tar allows all Outflanking Ranger units to reroll both die rolls (the reserve roll to enter play and the roll to determine side of entry) used when Outflanking, and allows these units to fire Heavy Weapons while moving the turn they enter play.

Hendarion
11-02-2011, 19:30
Shellguard Sentinels sound interesting, but are actually not entirely Eldar imo... I mean they obviously lack the speed. They are too defensive for Eldar I think. They need some good fluff-backup like being the last line of defenders of some Craftworld-Shrines or something.

TheLaughingGod
11-02-2011, 20:42
Shellguard Sentinels sound interesting, but are actually not entirely Eldar imo... I mean they obviously lack the speed. They are too defensive for Eldar I think. They need some good fluff-backup like being the last line of defenders of some Craftworld-Shrines or something.

Haha, like the already existent Everguard?

Bubble Ghost
11-02-2011, 22:01
Seer Councils, no - they're psykers, not turbo-combat-nutters :). Farseer bodyguards, fine: High WS for their ability to foresee enemy attacks and avoid them, great: Pointy-eared Assault Marines, no, sorry.

Couldn't agree more. Personally, I think Seer Council type things should effectively become a new unit type, enablers rather than being so hard that you're tempted to use them as a death star.

For examle, you could keep their gear roughly as is, make them dirt cheap in points, then say they aren't allowed to charge, because Farseers are too valuable to risk in headlong assaults (so you effectively get all the unit's melee prowess almost for free). Then come up with some way for Warlocks within such units to project their buffs onto nearby friendly units instead of their own, combining their efforts to extend their powers' range (maybe they all have a second psychic power, which they cast on another model in the unit to add 12" to that model's own power's range).

So a Seer Council would do what it's actually supposed to, it could still look after itself if it got attacked, and you wouldn't be paying through a nose for a load of witch blades and invulnerable saves you weren't really using.

I say all this because using Farseer & Friends as a mega assault unit really bugs me, it's completely contrary to the background to have Farseers going haring around looking for a fight. A unit like that - a tough but passive enabler - could be present interesting tactical choices for both players, I reckon, if their psychic powers were designed right.

I'm not saying this is the ONE TRUE WAY of going about making seer council type units behave in an appropriate fashion, mind you, just demonstrating that it can be done.

Xarian
11-02-2011, 22:24
Yes, crystal "spiders" (but possibly 6 leged judging by the aspect symble) living in the infinity circuit. However I'm sure it has to be linked to kain somehow if only because the spiders are also fighting a war or somthing similarly sketchy.

As far as I remember, they devour foreign psychic essences (i.e. demons). I think of them as the infinity matrix's immune system.

TheLaughingGod
11-02-2011, 22:33
Couldn't agree more. Personally, I think Seer Council type things should effectively become a new unit type, enablers rather than being so hard that you're tempted to use them as a death star..
Except that's exactly how they're supposed to be used. Warlock are psychic aspect warriors with force weapons for Khaine's sake!




I say all this because using Farseer & Friends as a mega assault unit really bugs me, it's completely contrary to the background to have Farseers going haring around looking for a fight. A unit like that - a tough but passive enabler - could be present interesting tactical choices for both players, I reckon, if their psychic powers were designed right..
Well, that's not actually true. The lore has Warlocks doing nothing BUT battle. In fact, that they act as glorified babysitters for Guardians is contrary to the background, they're supposed to be in your face, tearing up enemy champions and daemons and stuff. That's what Warlocks DO. Farseers are the same way. They're incredibly powerful psykers. They stride across the battlefield effortless avoiding clumsy attacks and blasts while obliterating their foes with a flick of their wrists and a killing thought. The lore has them hurling battle tanks into the air, pulping the mind of the enemy and banishing daemons. What part of that isn't assaulty death?

If anything, Warlocks and Farseers need to go back towards 2nd edition levels where they were awesome sauce warrior mages.

Bubble Ghost
11-02-2011, 22:48
What I was saying is that if it's a unit with a Farseer in it, it shouldn't be running around like that. I like the idea of a squad of Warlocks doing it sans Farseer, that's very appropriate, and if anything that concept deserves a more fleshed out realisation than they get from babysitting Farseers - Warlocks are a little dull at the moment, and if let loose they could make for an interesting unit in their own right. It just doesn't feel appropriate for an non-Avatar Eldar army to do the HQ death star thing, it doesn't fit their character somehow - a Seer Council type arrangement deserves to be more interesting than just another turbo combat unit, and the other Eldar combat units deserve to be more than just a sideshow.

Frimbleglim
11-02-2011, 23:34
@Xarian: yes eating demons but also any human or dark eldar psycher who tries to scry the webway. I think it would still be considered an aspect of Kain. Eating souls is one of his favorite pastimes.

@Bubble Ghost: Well I for one like the idea of 10 warlocks on jetbikes with destructor with a farseer also on jetbike. As I see it the Path of the seer is inconceivably complex even to non seer eldar. It starts with simple fortune telling and for the greatest seers with them voluntarily choosing to join the infinity circuit (basically die). The warrior-seer is just one of the stages they may or may not go though depending on where their visions take them. If it does take them that way then they are warriors and will behave as such.

The senior farseers are their own guides on the path. They are not like the exarchs for whom the eldar path has ended: they still walk a path but it is one that only they can see.

Hendarion
12-02-2011, 05:38
Haha, like the already existent Everguard?
Dunno, those units aren't my invention. But you really need a good reason to make Eldar slow and give them serious defensive powers, as that is quite opposite to what we always are told ("sacrifice armour for speed", you know?).

Hellebore
12-02-2011, 05:48
A seer council should be a separate type of psyker from a warlock. Make them Seers with a farseer leading them. Give them all the passive warlock powers and then buff the warlocks up with offensive ones in the same vein as space marine librarians.

Warlocks are fundamentally assault psykers who channel their power into direct and violent ways.

So a seer council is actually made of seers. They use the stats of the current Warlock models. They form a choir for the farseer(s) that augments their powers, or allows them to cast more (like the guard battle psyker squads).

Warlocks then become an advisor style model with better stats that can be taken to join any unit (as they used to and as it makes far more sense for a warlock claiming his helmet from an avenger shrine to hang out with avengers than it does to hang out with guardians).

Guardians gain a unit upgrade that is a follower of the path of command but has yet to lose himself on it.

The standard exarch stats become the veteran aspect warrior stats that are used to represent squad leaders. Exarchs have Autarch stats and are an upgrade to the squad leader. The HQ exarch can then take veteran aspects as his retinue.

Hellebore

Shamana
12-02-2011, 06:24
They are not like the exarchs for whom the eldar path has ended: they still walk a path but it is one that only they can see.

I'm not sure this is correct. The path of the Exarch only ends in death, and maybe not even then if they are summoned to fight as a wraithlord. Until then, they strive to master the style for an even closer communion with Khaine, but this is only an ideal, not a goal they may conceivably achieve. Their path is set, but it never ends.

With farseers, I'd be interested in having different options to show the farseer's history and preferred path - whether the farseer who was previously a warlock, a bonesinger, shadowseer etc.

Frimbleglim
12-02-2011, 11:34
I'm not sure this is correct. The path of the Exarch only ends in death, and maybe not even then if they are summoned to fight as a wraithlord. Until then, they strive to master the style for an even closer communion with Khaine, but this is only an ideal, not a goal they may conceivably achieve. Their path is set, but it never ends.

With farseers, I'd be interested in having different options to show the farseer's history and preferred path - whether the farseer who was previously a warlock, a bonesinger, shadowseer etc.


"You are not welcome; I am exarch of this place, your shrine is elsewhere" Kenainath's voice was flat, emotionless. Korlandril took a step forwards but stopped when Kenainath raised his claw.
"This is where I belong! You cannot cast me out."
"You have lost your way, you must find annouther shrine, it is tradition. The Path ends for you; Kain has taken your spirit, you are an exarch."
"Nonsense" Kenainath's laugh was harsh."One does not become an exarch after two battles. This is rediculus."
"Your journey was short, but it is now completed, you must accept it. There are other shrines, empty and without leaders, one will call to you. As it was with me, as it was with all of us, those trapped on the Path. We will meet again, not master and his pupil but as equals"

But this is not the way it works for farseers when their path ends their body becomes a crystal and their soul joins the infinity circuit.

MikeyB
12-02-2011, 12:58
Give us an assault vehicle

Make Banshees not one-shot weaponry

Either make my Avatar cost 300 points and give him the same stats as he did in 2nd Ed or make him an Apoc datasheet. I want a raging molten god of war not some lack luster greater daemon that can be sniped to death. Poison? When he's made of molten iron? Wtf?

Swooping hawks worth taking

Prisms in squadrons

Falcons in squadrons and treated the same way as Leman Russ tanks are now. With a big list of variants to mix and match with in your squadron.

Phoenix lords make aspects scoring/troops

Exarchs to work like 2nd Ed

I like the idea of warlocks working like wolf guard.

Shurriken catapults with 18" at least if not 24 like they use to be. If tau can have plasma rifles with stats like that, assault 2 catapults with 24" range shouldn't be so bad.

Lasblasters 18" Str4 ap5 A3 doesnt strike me as unreasonable either

Guardians with grenades

Give scorpions haywire grenades back.

However if the only thing they did was plastic wraithguard i'd be happy ^_^

Kresterz
12-02-2011, 21:19
I amreally irked by hawk weapons called "las". They are not imperium las guns and should not be named as is...

Second thing: Weapon buff everything and get better BS for vehicles, I mean, They should be well trained in shooting and not like some useless sir miss-a-lot......
rant over


So long as kelly is writing our next codex, who knows, it may go down that ditch or actually represent dark eldar with higher stats :shifty::rolleyes:

I hope they actually make it not fail tho :eyebrows:

webba84
13-02-2011, 00:52
Give us an assault vehicle


Storm Serpent
Storm Serpent
Storm Serpent

In other news, I really don't recall all that fluff about Farseers and Warlocks being so incredibly, devastatingly powerful, where's that coming from?

MikeyB
13-02-2011, 01:17
Storm Serpent
Storm Serpent
Storm Serpent

In other news, I really don't recall all that fluff about Farseers and Warlocks being so incredibly, devastatingly powerful, where's that coming from?

Read the warlock entry in the latest Eldar codex, the last sentence goes "Though not as powerful as Farseers, few psykers of other races can equal the arcane might of an Eldar Warlock or match them in battle"

Yeah....right....

Also isn't the storm serpent super heavy?

webba84
13-02-2011, 03:46
Read the warlock entry in the latest Eldar codex, the last sentence goes "Though not as powerful as Farseers, few psykers of other races can equal the arcane might of an Eldar Warlock or match them in battle"

Yeah....right....

Yes, well, I am in complete agrement that the way Eldar psykers are represented in the rules is pretty weak, but thats probably more an issue of the respectable age of the Eldar codex and the current tendency of new books to try and outdo every previous army in every single way :rolleyes:

Nonetheless that one sentence is not quite in the same league as the gushing fan prose about Warlocks previously seen in this thread which gives the distinct impression that if Warlocks are ever represented as anything less than game-balance devastatingly powerful the authors will not be satisfied.

For me the Warlock is the typical Fighter/Mage character (something I was big into in D&D) and so should be good at both without exceeding the abilities of the specialists.

And just a note on the abilities of Farseers and the definition of 'powerful' - it doesn't have to mean in a direct and physical sense. I mean, Farseers can see the future, the knowledge of which could be immeasurably powerful, without really being able to use that ability to hurt a fly on their own. That knowledge could change the entire galaxy and the future of trillions upon trillions of beings which I would say is pretty powerful. Point is, ruleswise I have no problem with Farseers being less devastating on the gametable than their cruder and less subtle counterparts as long as they have the special rules and abilites to affect the outcome of the battle that they deserve.


Also isn't the storm serpent super heavy?

Technically no, because it has never been represented ruleswise in 40k, it's only in epic where it is in the same class as the Scorpion, Cobra and so on but could easily be represented in the next Eldar 40k codex (should someone with sense choose to do it). Since this is a thread about eldar wishlisting it doesn't seem out of order to suggest that it could be included as a 'normal' (in as much as that purely rules distinction makes a shred of difference) vehicle that is sort of like the Eldar equivalent of a land raider, and much more thematically appropriate for Eldar than just a pretty box with people inside it.

Hendarion
13-02-2011, 08:07
Technically no, because it has never been represented ruleswise in 40k, it's only in epic where it is in the same class as the Scorpion, Cobra and so on but could easily be represented in the next Eldar 40k codex (should someone with sense choose to do it). Since this is a thread about eldar wishlisting it doesn't seem out of order to suggest that it could be included as a 'normal' (in as much as that purely rules distinction makes a shred of difference) vehicle that is sort of like the Eldar equivalent of a land raider, and much more thematically appropriate for Eldar than just a pretty box with people inside it.
That would be some really ugly design-change if you ask me. Storm-Serpents in epic are clearly super heavy as they use the Scorpion-chassis. That shouldn't be changed for 40k imo. There are enough ways to introduce other vehicles with a similar ability or even a webway portal wargear. Nothing of that will probably happen I guess, it's too much like Dark Eldar and they have mobile portals as tiny wargear for so many years while CWE don't.
That doesn't mean I won't be happy for a Storm-Serpent from Forgeworld, but in 40k imo CWE should get something else. Either some assault-vehicle with a totally different design (please, NOT even CLOSE to DE-Raiders, I totally dislike their design as they do not look any fast at all to me!) or by giving a dedicated serpent a special driver-upgrade that would allow the passengers to assault out of it after movement.

webba84
13-02-2011, 09:17
That would be some really ugly design-change if you ask me. Storm-Serpents in epic are clearly super heavy as they use the Scorpion-chassis. That shouldn't be changed for 40k imo. There are enough ways to introduce other vehicles with a similar ability or even a webway portal wargear. Nothing of that will probably happen I guess, it's too much like Dark Eldar and they have mobile portals as tiny wargear for so many years while CWE don't.
That doesn't mean I won't be happy for a Storm-Serpent from Forgeworld, but in 40k imo CWE should get something else. Either some assault-vehicle with a totally different design (please, NOT even CLOSE to DE-Raiders, I totally dislike their design as they do not look any fast at all to me!) or by giving a dedicated serpent a special driver-upgrade that would allow the passengers to assault out of it after movement.

Yes, I did say that it is the same category as the Scorpion in epic, and it is only my opinion that it would be an elegant and logical choice to modify that existing concept (and it really is just a concept now given how dead epic is) to suit the needs of a new 40k unit. I don't really see anything ugly about that, to my mind it's definitely nicer than 'doing a Stormraven'. Anyway, my point is that if there were to be an assault transport for Eldar then the Storm Serpent is what I think currently best expresses how it should appear and function.

Hendarion
13-02-2011, 10:08
Redesign of completely worked out concepts in 40k is always kinda bad for me. The Storm Serpent *is* a super heavy, no matter how much you think that epic is dead (although it isn't, my group is playing epic). Period.

I also don't see why GW should kill an existing concept and introduce another with the same name. Instead they can simple release an additional one and all is fine.
The Storm-Raven you mention is not a re-design of the Rhino either, but a new concept (yea, imo it shouldn't have been introduced, but it has been).

Poseidal
13-02-2011, 11:51
My idea was to have the Warp Gate similar to the Storm Serpent as a Falcon upgrade. That way, it is still a HS choice, still uses a 'tank' (rather than serpent) chassis while diversifying what the Falcon does rather than being a halfway point between the Serpent and one of the dedicated tanks.

But a new model concept would also be good, with the gate at the front (and the rear part used as power).

The reason for the Falcon though, is it has weapons similar to the Storm Serpent anyway (compared to Superheavies, so if the Cobra is the Warp Hunter+, the Pulsar is the Fire Prism+ and the Void Spinner the Shadow Weaver+) so if it fills the same niche (but on a smaller scale) it would work like that.

Hellebore
13-02-2011, 13:05
Yes, well, I am in complete agrement that the way Eldar psykers are represented in the rules is pretty weak, but thats probably more an issue of the respectable age of the Eldar codex and the current tendency of new books to try and outdo every previous army in every single way :rolleyes:

Nonetheless that one sentence is not quite in the same league as the gushing fan prose about Warlocks previously seen in this thread which gives the distinct impression that if Warlocks are ever represented as anything less than game-balance devastatingly powerful the authors will not be satisfied.

For me the Warlock is the typical Fighter/Mage character (something I was big into in D&D) and so should be good at both without exceeding the abilities of the specialists.

And just a note on the abilities of Farseers and the definition of 'powerful' - it doesn't have to mean in a direct and physical sense. I mean, Farseers can see the future, the knowledge of which could be immeasurably powerful, without really being able to use that ability to hurt a fly on their own. That knowledge could change the entire galaxy and the future of trillions upon trillions of beings which I would say is pretty powerful. Point is, ruleswise I have no problem with Farseers being less devastating on the gametable than their cruder and less subtle counterparts as long as they have the special rules and abilites to affect the outcome of the battle that they deserve.


Check out 2nd ed to see how powerful warlocks and farseers used to be.

A warlock is an offensive battle psyker. That's how it's been since they were introduced to 40k. Their background now is a rehash of the 2nd ed codex background (like almost everything in the 4th ed codex).

Warlocks used to be able to take a power that sent a spirit form of themselves towards an enemy and fought it in melee called The Executioner. The opponent couldn't hurt the warlock in any way, but the warlock could kill the opponent. Destructor used to be a ~15" long flamer template (roughly the size of the 2nd ed heavy flamer template which is actually what the warp spiders used for their webspinners).

A witchblade used to be a force sword .... only better. Now it's just a poisoned (2+) weapon that doesn't reroll wound rolls and is mysteriously S9 against vehicles. Talk about a confused design.

Ever since 3rd ed when they mysteriously decided that warlocks should be 'squad leaders' despite being the equivalent of a super HQ choice in 2nd ed, warlocks have been at odds with their background. A warlock specifically never used subtle powers, they were all about direct application of power. Thus Conceal and Embolden make no sense for them. In fact warlocks in 2nd ed couldn't get access to any unit buffing abilities - those powers were restricted to the farseer.

So... yeah. A warlock is like a space marine librarian in that he is first and foremost an offensive frontline battle psyker who's main purpose is to smash the enemy with the Path of the Warrior rage power he's built up before becomin a warlock.

Hellebore

Iracundus
13-02-2011, 13:13
Check out 2nd ed to see how powerful warlocks and farseers used to be.

A warlock is an offensive battle psyker. That's how it's been since they were introduced to 40k. Their background now is a rehash of the 2nd ed codex background (like almost everything in the 4th ed codex).

Warlocks used to be able to take a power that sent a spirit form of themselves towards an enemy and fought it in melee called The Executioner. The opponent couldn't hurt the warlock in any way, but the warlock could kill the opponent. Destructor used to be a ~15" long flamer template (roughly the size of the 2nd ed heavy flamer template which is actually what the warp spiders used for their webspinners).

Executioner was not unique to Warlocks and could be taken by Farseers. It may have been seen as overlapping too much with Mind War in being a targeted assassination power.

The Destructor power was pretty meh, and was only really remarkable for its ability to keep moving forward if sustained. As it is now, it is still pretty unremarkable. A psychic heavy flamer when others are throwing out JotWW? Less talk about the Eldar being powerful psychically and more actual showing would be nice.



So... yeah. A warlock is like a space marine librarian in that he is first and foremost an offensive frontline battle psyker who's main purpose is to smash the enemy with the Path of the Warrior rage power he's built up before becomin a warlock.

Hellebore

In 2nd ed., I never felt Warlocks were worth it due to the Mastery rules resulting in their powers being nullified most of the time, and their rather mediocre powers even then compared to the Farseer.

Hellebore
13-02-2011, 13:19
Executioner was not unique to Warlocks and could be taken by Farseers. It may have been seen as overlapping too much with Mind War in being a targeted assassination power.

The Destructor power was pretty meh, and was only really remarkable for its ability to keep moving forward if sustained. As it is now, it is still pretty unremarkable. A psychic heavy flamer when others are throwing out JotWW? Less talk about the Eldar being powerful psychically and more actual showing would be nice.

In 2nd ed., I never felt Warlocks were worth it due to the Mastery rules resulting in their powers being nullified most of the time, and their rather mediocre powers even then compared to the Farseer


Well I left those to warlocks and used the farseer only powers on the farseer, you could only take one after all. Thus one farseer and a couple of mid range warlocks were quite effective.

As to Destructor, I was merely pointing out that compared to the current powers, their powers used to be far more nasty. This was true of all armies, but the warlocks being relegated to 'support characters' were hit with the nerf bat on the powers quite considerably.

It would be nice to think that given the ubiquity of psychic powers appearing in the grey knights codex that warlocks might actually be treated as real psykers when they redo the eldar codex.

EDIT: The irony of an inherently psychic race being outpsykered by an imperial army is pretty obvious.

Hellebore

Obrimos
13-02-2011, 14:13
Eldar are already overdiversified, due to aspect warriors. Not counting tank variations, Eldar have more different army choices than every other army (at least that's how it seems to me). So my thoughts are that they are not really in need of any "new" units. They just need to make all choices equally viable, as indicated by many others here. This would mostly involve changes of rules and not models.

I agree, however, that there is a severe lack of heavy-armed close combat specialists (the exception being the wraithlord). I could envisage wraithguard with two powerfists or powerklaives (like DE Incubi) and an inbuilt light shoulder-mounted weapon.

Still this would offset one of the armies great flaws and might ruin the balance in the end.

The introduction of new warrior aspects is always possible (warpspiders and shining spears didn't exist in rogue trader and forgeworlds new creations still need a place), but there is always the danger of making other aspects redundant in the process. I say it again, we have too many already!

As I don't want to discuss any rules changes here, I stick to a list of new products I'd love to buy if they were to come out.

So, things I'd like to see are:
1) Berserker/Assassin-Wraithguard
2) An additional plastic sprue to convert a Vyper into a small transport.
3) Psyker-Wraithlord (for obvious reasons)
4) Some retinue for the Autarchs (possibly some folks having the same equipment like him but the stats of guardians).
5) Plastic aspect warriors and wraithguard (hell yeah!)

Cheers!

Hendarion
13-02-2011, 14:13
EDIT: The irony of an inherently psychic race being outpsykered by an imperial army is pretty obvious.
Or being out-manoeuvred by an imperial army. Or being out-shot by laser-weapons of an imperial army or... or... or...

Xarian
13-02-2011, 14:33
...there is a severe lack of heavy-armed close combat specialists (the exception being the wraithlord).

You are referring to units that hit with high-S, armor-ignoring hits in close-combat, right? Like Terminators/mass power-fists/etc?

For HQ options, there are Yriel and Karandras. Outside of that, there's the shining spear exarch with a star lance, wraithlords... that's pretty much it, unless you count rending (harlequins). I agree that there should probably be some aspect or other squad dedicated to highe-S power weapons (the "powerfist aspect"?), but what would it be?

Close-combat wraithguard may be an option, but is S higher than 6 justified?

Keep in mind, too, that most armies cannot take large amounts of that sort of thing - you have, what, terminators, nob squads, all the various dreadnoughts, various MCs from different armies, some named characters...

Frimbleglim
13-02-2011, 14:48
Eldar players can however take 30 fire dragons and I often do. This makes up for it IMO.

Squallish
13-02-2011, 15:01
But pigeon-holes us heavily into what Elites we're taking.

I think fixing Shining Spears and adding/fixing anti-tank option in the Heavy slot will add a huge potential to list building for the Eldar Codex.

Frimbleglim
13-02-2011, 15:39
As I said above I would rather see all the common aspect warriors become troops choices.

By this I meen the original aspects that are found on every craftworld. Basicaly the ones there are phoenix lords for.

(I was reffering to fire dragons in an anti terminator/space marine context in case you didn't get that.)

Hendarion
13-02-2011, 16:07
Well, not everybody enjoys fielding 30 Fire Dragons... me for example.

Ianos
13-02-2011, 16:20
Well, not everybody enjoys fielding 30 Fire Dragons... me for example.

Even if you did that does not mean you are on an equal footing, when an army has to rely on 3 fragile, short ranged units to do all the anti-tank dirty work, it is doomed to fail.

But hey why should the high tech, "better kill before we die" Eldar get decent long ranged weapons?

Hendarion
13-02-2011, 16:22
Well, Eldar do have quite nice weapons. Lances can be put on nearly every vehicle. The thing is just that the range is a joke and the costs are crazy high.

Frimbleglim
13-02-2011, 16:48
Even if you did that does not mean you are on an equal footing, when an army has to rely on 3 fragile, short ranged units to do all the anti-tank dirty work, it is doomed to fail.

But hey why should the high tech, "better kill before we die" Eldar get decent long ranged weapons?
I do not use these as anti take units. I use them againt terminators and tactical mariens. They are of similar price to a tactical marine and are of more or less equal footing in a fire fight. With careful use of transports and positioning they it is possible to use two or three fire dragon units together to destroy almost any target in a single turn.

(The reason this isn't unballanced is that you have to get them working together to do this and then you are likely to be shot back by other units even assulted as the guns are short range)

Well, Eldar do have quite nice weapons. Lances can be put on nearly every vehicle. The thing is just that the range is a joke and the costs are crazy high.

Right behind you there. 45pts for a twin linked brightlance?



@Obrimos

I am not saying we shouldnt' have some decent assault troops either. I'm just saying we don't need terminators or wraithguard with str 6 powerweapon and pistol or whatever. Just making the current assult troops better at what they do and maybe adding some new ones for variety would be fine.

I would say something like "If you want a close combat army play orcs not eldar" but that would be rather condescending. Suffice to say that I think a unit that was both tough and hard hitting against multiple target types would detract from the character of the army.

Sildani
13-02-2011, 16:51
Reduce the points and keep the ranges then. It's the range restrictions that prevent us from staying out of reach and picking at our opponent. We have to take the risk and close in.

The problem comes from the fact that when we do the results are too often either underwhelming or average. The Eldar don't shine at anything anymore. What I think we need is a complete re-think of the entire army, from the Guardian to the Farseer and everything in between. In this day of ultra-shooty IG, stupid-fast Blood Angels, and fast 'n' fragile Dark Eldar (who hit like a ton of bricks, the way we need to), what can the Eldar have and do that no one else can?

In my opinion, it starts with two things: psychics and tangibly rewarding your army working as an organic whole.

Hendarion
13-02-2011, 16:54
what can the Eldar have and do that no one else can?
There is one major thing: Fielding useless units for spectacularly high costs.

Frimbleglim
13-02-2011, 17:03
Reduce the points and keep the ranges then. It's the range restrictions that prevent us from staying out of reach and picking at our opponent. We have to take the risk and close in.

The problem comes from the fact that when we do the results are too often either underwhelming or average. The Eldar don't shine at anything anymore. What I think we need is a complete re-think of the entire army, from the Guardian to the Farseer and everything in between. In this day of ultra-shooty IG, stupid-fast Blood Angels, and fast 'n' fragile Dark Eldar (who hit like a ton of bricks, the way we need to), what can the Eldar have and do that no one else can?

In my opinion, it starts with two things: psychics and tangibly rewarding your army working as an organic whole.
Here Here.

How about adding rules that make the units work better when multiple types of aspect warrior are used together. It wouldn't need to be explicit. If say the dire avengers had an ability in close combat that reduced the enemy toughness to a minimum of 2 for example a howling banshee/dire avenger charge would be devistating against space marines.

Or you could do it the other way and make the units explicitly better if banshees are fighting with scorpians say. This really would be units working in concert rather than running off to engage their respective targets of choice.

(getting rather off topic here, I hope Hendarion doesn't mind)

Obrimos
13-02-2011, 17:24
@Xarian and Frimbleglim:

Eldar certainly don't have to have an equivalent for everything that exists in the universe. As I already said I consider Eldar overdiversified already. CC-Wraithguard was just one of the things I could still imagine coming into existance without being instantly useless or taking some other units role.
I just tried to be in accordance with the topic.

As for the actual realisation of those guys, I think there are numerous options. My favourite is to just rework ordinary wraithguard.
Wraithlords are quite special as an Eldar unit in that they are not specialised; they are equally good in CC and shooting, at the same time that is.
Wraithguards should IMO be equally so...just scaled down a bit.
Give them Powergauntlets and maybe a big blade as an upgrade. S6 is fine with me but everything up to S8 is still ok in my eyes.
Give them shouldermounts for either carrying a single wraithgun or synch. shuriken catapults or 2 lasblasters or whatnot.
Wraithguard should rely to Terminators as Wraithlords do to Dreads.
Hell, those guys will still be slow and need a transport for max. effect.
But so does every Eldar unit at the moment. Sad enough.

Oh and give the wraithlord back its option for a D-gun (just to round the picture). ;)

Frimbleglim
13-02-2011, 17:34
@Obrimos- That sounds fair enough but what would these wraith guard do? 2 str 5 attacks from a T6 model with a 3+ save doesn't sound that useful to me. They wouldnt' even get power weapons most likely. You could give them all twin power fists perhaps. That might work.

Close combat wraithguard used to exist by the way. Look up the old eldar ghost warrior close combat varient if you havnt' seen the models.

Hendarion
13-02-2011, 17:43
Personally I think that huge double-handed swords/cleavers would fit them absolutely. Fists would just create yet again a bit static models, I fear.

Dark Aly
13-02-2011, 17:58
I was thinking about this earlier and thought that a support platform which generates a shield would be cool. I was thinking of dawn of war where everything close to an upgraded webway thingy becomes stealthed.

Whether this is portrayed as a cover save, FnP or a rule similar to the 'quins veil I don't know but it could be useful and may make footdar a more viable build

Obrimos
13-02-2011, 17:59
@Frimbleglim:

I know those guys. And I found them to be very inspirational as most of the rogue trader models and rules.

As I just described them as mini-wraithlords I thought is was evident that they should ignore armour saves. :)

Kresterz
13-02-2011, 18:39
I think we can all agree on a list of important changes

Range buff
New vehicle or unit
plastic aspects and wraithguard
Avatar something buff

add onto this to make it easier for people to read what has been discussed

Sildani
13-02-2011, 18:43
I think we can all agree on a list of important changes

Range buff
New vehicle or unit
plastic aspects and wraithguard
Avatar something buff

add onto this to make it easier for people to read what has been discussed

No, not the range buff. Make our vehicles fast AND able to do stuff, make our guns strictly BETTER than others', yes. Remove one of our two intentional weaknesses that keep us intrinsically balanced? No, do not want.

Poseidal
13-02-2011, 18:58
No, not the range buff. Make our vehicles fast AND able to do stuff, make our guns strictly BETTER than others', yes. Remove one of our two intentional weaknesses that keep us intrinsically balanced? No, do not want.

The problem with Eldar weapons is they're usually 'the same but different' (different = worse, hidden by special rules).

I'd rather they simplify them back to the same as the Imperial equivalents, but better like the Eldar Missile Launcher as per fitting for a High-Tech race.

The balance should come from them being more expensive (can't afford to bring so many bodies), on a platform that isn't any tougher (but in itself isn't inferior).

Hendarion
13-02-2011, 19:03
plastic aspects
No, thanks. Seriously not.


plastic wraithguard
Yes, please.

Shamana
13-02-2011, 21:09
There is one major thing: Fielding useless units for spectacularly high costs.

Eh, not quite unique to Eldar only. CSM have the "fast attack" chaos spawn, for the low price of 40 points apiece. :D

In general, I'm also a fan of the "better than average weapons, higher than average cost" mindset when it comes to the eldar. I envision them as an elite army - roughly similar size to than space marines/CSMs, less resilient for its points, but with higher mobility and possibly offense. The problem is when their weapons get too gimmicky and are actually less effective, nevermind efficient.

For now, I'm a bit wary of expecting too many new units. I'm more interested in getting the already existing ones balanced and squeezing every bit of value for them than in just getting new toys to play with.

Obrimos
14-02-2011, 00:53
@Hendarion:

Plastic is always better. Easier to transport, easier to convert and they dont break when they fall off the table or from a high piece of terrain. Also, they are cheaper.
As much as I love the old tin guys for their detail, I can also very much live with the details of the DireAvengers. The new dark Eldar sprues are also fabulous.
I wonder why GW still produces Tin Models at all.
Must be for reasons of nostalgia.

@all:
The short weapon ranges won't be a problem if you get a transport for every unit or only buy fast units which can offset the short range by their speed, which is one of GW's marketing strategies. Anything else won't do.
So basically you end up with a mechanised army full of one-shot squads.
Which is not how Eldar should work IMO. But thats just me, because I played them in 2nd edition, when they had no transports until the falcon came out.
What really angers me are those half excuses of special rules, like the jetbike extra movement or avenger catapults.
It's just like: "Oh, Dire Avengers are even more useless than ever, now that we nerfed the catapult. Let's give them some ugly rangefinders and longer barrels than a pulse rifle so their range can be 18 inches!"

Seriously...12 inches is a pistol range.
And that is not where the Eldar want to go.

So, I'd like to see some things happen:
Shuriken catapults equal stormbolters.
Avenger catapult 30" range.
Shuriken cannon equals heavy bolter. (more range less strength)
Bright lance and Scatter laser 48 inches.
Scatter laser fixed rate of fire (4), AP 4 would be nice.
More damage output from the Starcannon. (Make it S5 but give it 3 shots)
Make Lasblasters as good as Imperial HE-lasers. (look at the models!)
Make the Pulselaser a lance weapon.
Fusion guns need S8.
Artilleryplatforms with a firing range to deserve that name.
Warpspiders should be 5 warriors per unit and use flamer templates.
Darkreapers should be up to 10 warriors per unit.
Wraithguns should be 24 inches at least.

This is of course a wishlist. I believe some of those things might come true though. They are foreshadowed by the DE codex.
What do you think?

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 05:10
As much as I love the old tin guys for their detail...
You should have stopped the sentence here.


... I can also very much live with the details of the DireAvengers. The new dark Eldar sprues are also fabulous.
I wonder why GW still produces Tin Models at all.
Must be for reasons of nostalgia.
No, GW plastic models are still clearly missing undercuts. I hate the legs of the Dire Avengers. The butts just look stupid, because GW is using only two slices. Sorry, but I can't imagine how dumb or ugly for example Striking Scorpions would look like if GW had tried to make them plastic.
No thanks, I really do not want Aspects low on details. I could buy flat Space Marines if I'd want that. I love Eldar for the Details they have since nearly 25 years and I would not want to see any of these vanish. The new Dire Avengers might overall not look bad, but the Exarch-Head without helmet is also without details (the plastic hair is yet another example of ugle two-slices-plastic-casting of GW) and the plastic-addon the head has is way too thick than it should have been if made in metal. Sorry, the Dire Avengers lack serious amount of details AND undercuts in so many ways, I hate it.
Simple example are the current Striking Scorpion Heads. They can not be casted by using the typical GW-two-slices-method. Either you would lose the venting-wholes in the face AND the Mandiblasters or the dreadlocks/antenna at the back of the head. You can't have both by using only two slides as GW does with 95% of all sprues.

My opinion about plastic Aspects is simply "no, thanks". Wraithguard on the other hand are flat models anyway and could easily be made plastic with a new layout (seperate arms, legs, weapons, neck and head).

However, we should continue this in the "plastic vs metal" thread which is currently open once again.


So, I'd like to see some things happen:
Shuriken catapults equal stormbolters.
Avenger catapult 30" range.
More damage output from the Starcannon. (Make it S5 but give it 3 shots)
Fusion guns need S8.
Shuriken Catapults 24"? Woot?
Avenger Catapults 30"? Woooot? Wanna play Tau-style?
Making the Eldar Plasma weapon look more ridiculous?
Fusion Guns are S8 already.

Obrimos
14-02-2011, 09:41
IMO, the Avenger catapult is nothing but a sad excuse, even though I have to admit that they make Dire Avengers stand out a little more. If the shuriken catapult were to become as good as a stormbolter though, I'd be quite happy without a special version of those guns. And older models do have an ordinary one anyway. So no harm done.

As for the starcannon, I think it'll become like the Dark Eldar counterpart (don't remember the name though).

Sai-Lauren
14-02-2011, 10:42
Even if it was, Sai-Lauren's suggestion would make use of the vehicle's existing strengths, while yours would turn it into a Land Raider rip-off.

Thanks. :)



The thing is, the raider isn't the only vehicle that allows assaulting after it moved. Why should it be any harder for trained eldar warriors to jump down from a serpent and then assault than it is orks jumping down from a wagon or marine scouts from a storm speeder? Heck, marines can assault after hitting the ground in a freaking drop pod - you'd think that would slow them down .

The Land Raider's the only non-open top one that allows it.

As for Marines assaulting from Drop Pods, no, they can't - they're deep striking (Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs can assault on a deep strike though).

The last time I used my Marine army, they wouldn't have been chewed up half as badly if they could have assaulted (4,000 points, 7 drop pods, 3 squads of Terminators, an assault squad, a pair of Land Speeders and a scout squad outflanking - nothing on the table to start with :)).



At any rate, to me it seems that if the eldar warriors can jump up right into battle from a serpent that had moved through an enemy unit (with all the resistance that might entail), there's little reason they can't dismount and charge. Sure, it might involve a fair bit of agility and training - but these aren't exactly in short supply in any aspect. If there is a specialized assault transport or a venom-esque open-topped speeder, no problem - but as it is, I'd prefer if any aspect has at least the option to assault from the serpent for any infantry unit.

The point is that they've been disrupted by the vehicle passing through them - they're confused, unprepared, the enemy's probably coming from a direction they weren't expecting and any defences they had are now useless. The assaulting unit has the ability to get out of the vehicle and get into combat, rather than being mown down as they disembark.

The Tank Shock aspect of it also makes it slightly risky so that it isn't an automatic no-brainer, full ahead and damn the torpedoes non-tactic (we'll leave that to the Astartes ;)) - there's a chance that the vehicle will get taken out, and the assault unit will wind up in a bad position, or even killed outright.



Either make my Avatar cost 300 points and give him the same stats as he did in 2nd Ed or make him an Apoc datasheet. I want a raging molten god of war not some lack luster greater daemon that can be sniped to death. Poison? When he's made of molten iron? Wtf?

If Greater Daemons go to Apocalypse as well, yes the Avatar should - but maybe a "Spirit of Khaine Incarnate" for Apocalypse to go against the FW named daemons? The psychic field generated by the Eldar gathered for such a massive battle is enough to boost the Avatar's powers to new levels, or the presence of the Avatars of multiple Craftworlds generates it?



Yes, I did say that it is the same category as the Scorpion in epic, and it is only my opinion that it would be an elegant and logical choice to modify that existing concept (and it really is just a concept now given how dead epic is) to suit the needs of a new 40k unit. I don't really see anything ugly about that, to my mind it's definitely nicer than 'doing a Stormraven'. Anyway, my point is that if there were to be an assault transport for Eldar then the Storm Serpent is what I think currently best expresses how it should appear and function.

Maybe a "Night Serpent"? Wave Serpent hull and shields, no turret, and instead of the passenger compartment, the three curved pylons of a webway portal? Maybe a maximum of a single 5-man squad deployed at any time?

And the Storm Serpent as it's bigger brother from FW. :)



The Storm-Raven you mention is not a re-design of the Rhino either, but a new concept (yea, imo it shouldn't have been introduced, but it has been).

I'd say the Stormraven is something Marines need - a smaller dropship than the Thunderhawk designed to drop a single squad in support of other forces.

Just a shame it looks so bad.



The irony of an inherently psychic race being outpsykered by an imperial army is pretty obvious.

Ah, but they are the shiniest of the shiny Marines. Of course the Grey Knights will have everything. ;)



How about adding rules that make the units work better when multiple types of aspect warrior are used together. It wouldn't need to be explicit. If say the dire avengers had an ability in close combat that reduced the enemy toughness to a minimum of 2 for example a howling banshee/dire avenger charge would be devistating against space marines.

Or you could do it the other way and make the units explicitly better if banshees are fighting with scorpians say. This really would be units working in concert rather than running off to engage their respective targets of choice.

That's starting to get very, very complicated - almost to MTG combo-deck level (or 4th edition D&D abilities :rolleyes: ).

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 11:35
@Sai-Lauren
That's no bad thing, I love Magic the Gathering! But it's not really at that level of complexity. MTG uses combos of 6+ cards sometimes. I have such a combo that using only common/uncommon cards can deal over 100 direct damage in a single turn. This is just on the level of the old harlequin grenades.

I think the shuriken catapult could be made an 18" range S5 AP- Assault 4 weapon without being broken. I doubt we will see anything so bold though.

Sai-Lauren
14-02-2011, 12:00
That's no bad thing, I love Magic the Gathering! But it's not really at that level of complexity.

It is if you're a newcomer attracted by the shiny toys, and even some of us veterans will have problems with it.

And what happens if you have say, Banshee/Avenger combo rules, Banshee/Scorpion combo rules, and Avenger/Scorpion combo rules, and hit my unit with all three at once?

I think I'll go make a cup of tea whilst you work out what should happen next. :)



MTG uses combos of 6+ cards sometimes. I have such a combo that using only common/uncommon cards can deal over 100 direct damage in a single turn. This is just on the level of the old harlequin grenades.

RT era was a lot smaller in scale, which allowed for that level of detail (it's only when people wanted to play bigger games that it started to grind to a halt).

And most MTG combos also tend to be built up over time, not suddenly thrown together in one turn.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 12:16
It is if you're a newcomer attracted by the shiny toys, and even some of us veterans will have problems with it.

And what happens if you have say, Banshee/Avenger combo rules, Banshee/Scorpion combo rules, and Avenger/Scorpion combo rules, and hit my unit with all three at once?

I would imagine much the same thing as if you hit a banshee squad with terminators, assault marines and death company all in one turn.



RT era was a lot smaller in scale, which allowed for that level of detail (it's only when people wanted to play bigger games that it started to grind to a halt).

If the models are giving each other stat boosts it's not a big deal. For example banshees giving friendly units in the same combat an initiative increase.

Also if each unit just gives a small penalty to the enemy such as dire avengers giving them -1 to hit or banshees giving enemies +1 to hit them (not a million miles away from the current rules in fact).

Such combo charges could be made significantly more effective without creating a rules headache.



And most MTG combos also tend to be built up over time, not suddenly thrown together in one turn.

Fair point, but there is no limit to the number of them you can squeese into a 60 card deck. The way games tend to go is evey card that is played improves say 1/2-1/6 the other cards in play in a normal combo deck. They build up quickly starting turn 1 or 2. And that's ignoring slivver decks.

PS. I will admit that for me it has always been the game that attracted me to the hobby. I really don't care much about the toy soldiers although I sometimes enjoy trying out a new painting technique or conversion I am very much a gamer rather than a modeler.

I am probably biased for this reason. I would rather see a more ballanced game with more flexibility in the different armies than see lots of new models with exotic and often overpowered rules.

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 12:26
I'd say the Stormraven is something Marines need - a smaller dropship than the Thunderhawk designed to drop a single squad in support of other forces.
And that is where I absolutely disagree. Giving Space Marines a nicely armoured fast skimmer with deep strike abolity is clearly overlapping into Eldar and Dark Eldar territory and totally against each transportation-concept that Space Marines had used for like 20 years. And not only this transport is well armoured and faster than default Eldar-vehicles which are said to be the fastest of all, no, it is also superbly fitted with a load of weapons. It's a jack of all trades device and that is bad imo.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 12:32
And that is where I absolutely disagree. Giving Space Marines a nicely armoured fast skimmer with deep strike abolity is clearly overlapping into Eldar and Dark Eldar territory and totally against each transportation-concept that Space Marines had used for like 20 years. And not only this transport is well armoured and faster than default Eldar-vehicles which are said to be the fastest of all, no, it is also superbly fitted with a load of weapons. It's a jack of all trades device and that is bad imo.

Space marines are a jack of all trades army though. So long as it's sufficiently expensive (in terms of points) that they can't spam them it should be ok. I haven't read the rules for this though so I don't know if this is the case.

Shamana
14-02-2011, 12:33
The point is that they've been disrupted by the vehicle passing through them - they're confused, unprepared, the enemy's probably coming from a direction they weren't expecting and any defences they had are now useless. The assaulting unit has the ability to get out of the vehicle and get into combat, rather than being mown down as they disembark.

In 40k, I think defender preparedness is generally represented by initiative, cover/difficult terrain, frag grenades etc. Remember, it's not a matter of dismounting (all units can do that, it's being able to dismount and yet having enough momentum to charge at an enemy. IMO eldar, as favoring speed (especially in assault) have as good a reason to have such an ability as anyone - arguably more so than marines.


The Tank Shock aspect of it also makes it slightly risky so that it isn't an automatic no-brainer, full ahead and damn the torpedoes non-tactic (we'll leave that to the Astartes ;)) - there's a chance that the vehicle will get taken out, and the assault unit will wind up in a bad position, or even killed outright

It's a very risky tactic that can blow up in your face even if you do it right - in an army that fluffwise is highly risk-averse and conscious of their own losses. Dude, it practically is a "full ahead and damn the torpedoes non-tactic," only the marines have the decency to a) do it in a Land Raider, and b) leave the ride some distance from the fight so it doesn't get wrecked by one guy with a powerfist. It just doesn't strike me as a good fit thematically and plowing through with a relatively lightly-armored skimmer (especially against melee) that serves as a transport vehicle strikes me as a foolhardy and generally unnecessary risk. This would look fun in an ork army, maybe a chaos one, but crafworld eldar? What is next, throwing waves of soldiers and the avatar against an Ultramarine-defended fortified position? :p

@ Fimblegrim - I'm wary of allowing everything under the "Jack of all trades" moto. At some point, the "jack" becomes the "master" - marines already have a better light skimmer chassis than the Vyper (higher BS, not open-topped, can DS). If they have a better heavy skimmer, just what becomes of the whole "mastery of skimmer technology" the Eldar supposedly had?

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 12:45
Space marines are a jack of all trades army though. So long as it's sufficiently expensive (in terms of points) that they can't spam them it should be ok. I haven't read the rules for this though so I don't know if this is the case.
It's not a matter of costs. It's a matter of having it. Eldar won't get Leman Russ or Terminators or Tau Pulse Rifles. Not even for the proper costs. Why? Because an army has a theme, a design it follows. And fast skimmers is Eldar terrain. That is what Eldar had exclusively. Now we just got robbed yet again and the Storm Raven even trumps it. That is bad. An army should have a major thing they follow (speed, fire-power, numbers, armour, ...). With the Storm Raven Space Marines received something they never should have got imo.

Hellebore
14-02-2011, 12:54
The storm raven, thunderwolf cavalry and dreadknights show a trend GW is following. They are putting rules normally found or unique in other armies, into space marine forces. Now you don't need to play eldar to use a fast deployement skimmer force, you can do it with blood angels. You don't need to play daemons to get uber heavy calvary, you can play space wolves. You don't need to play eldar or nids to get super MCs, you can play grey knights.

For those players that choose their armies based on their play style, GW are just making it more and more enticing to play space marines. They have all the game advantages of marines and now also the unique units found in other armies as well.

This obviously doesn't work for those people choosing armies for more aesthetic reasons, but I'm sure it makes a difference for those choosing based on army play style.

I've made a tongue in cheek statement in the past, but I'm kind of half serious. GW thinks marines are their winners and it's easier to sell marines to kids. So why not take all the unique themes found in other armies and just make marine chapters that use them? Why play orks when you can play Waaagh! Marines who get bigger as they age due to geneseed malfunction and have radical techmarines. They also use aspirant squads as hordes to fight the enemy to weed out the worthy.

Or a high Initiative marine chapter that divides its squads into fighting temples that specialise in specific modes of fighting around the facets of fighting dictated by Guilliman. They even have their first chapter master's brain in a specially designed dreadnought that looks like a walking statue of Guilliman. Their librarians also like predicting the future.

It's very easy to turn any 40k force into a marine chapter and given how GW isn't even trying anymore with their background, they probably wouldn't even go to the lengths I just went to to justify these chapters.

Then it really will just be marines vs marines, where the colour of your marines dictates whether they are the eldar marines, ork marines, tau marines, or nid marines (dreadknight style units as carnifexes and hive tyrants - the chapter master only goes to battle in one as well as conscript plebs from their recruitment worlds acting as meatshields for their divine masters).


Hellebore

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 12:54
It's not a matter of costs. It's a matter of having it. Eldar won't get Leman Russ or Terminators or Tau Pulse Rifles. Not even for the proper costs. Why? Because an army has a theme, a design it follows. And fast skimmers is Eldar terrain. That is what Eldar had exclusively. Now we just got robbed yet again and the Storm Raven even trumps it. That is bad. An army should have a major thing they follow (speed, fire-power, numbers, armour, ...). With the Storm Raven Space Marines received something they never should have got imo.

The space marine theme is getting the best troops, the best vehicles, the best characters and the best weapons. The flip side is that they dont' get many of them. They are an army of macho-men in very masculine armour designed to be attractive to twelve year olds who like to brag about having "dead hard looking models" with "dead hard stats".

From a more mature gamer's standpoint they are an army with interestingly flexible troop selection and perhaps one of the cheaper ways of building an army as they tend to be expensive in points.

If the eldar got terminators or whatever that would be out of place as the eldar are an army of specialists. The space marines can get whatever they like. The whole point of space marines is that they get the best stuff.


(I don't play them by the way)

Shamana
14-02-2011, 13:07
The space marine theme is getting the best troops, the best vehicles, the best characters and the best weapons.

That's their theme compared to other imperial armies. I think that compared to all other armies, they are generalists. Elite, sure, but generalists.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 13:08
That's their theme compared to other imperial armies. I think that compared to all other armies, they are generalists. Elite, sure, but generalists.

That's right, and conversely the eldar is an army of elite specialists.

AlexHolker
14-02-2011, 13:10
I'd be in favour of synergistic uses of units being encouraged, but it should be things that make obvious sense. For example, I could see Warp Spiders or Nightspinners dropping a monofilament web on an enemy unit (so that they'll get cut up if they move), then having a Wave Serpent Tank Shock them through it. Or letting a Guardian squad take a Prism Relay platform that can bounce Fire Prism shots around corners.


And that is where I absolutely disagree. Giving Space Marines a nicely armoured fast skimmer with deep strike abolity is clearly overlapping into Eldar and Dark Eldar territory and totally against each transportation-concept that Space Marines had used for like 20 years.
The Thunderhawk Gunship doesn't ring any bells?

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 13:12
Sounds good to me. Maybe give the prism bouncing thing to vipers though... I doubt it would be used much but I like the idea.

And tank shocking stuff that cant' move is always fun but would might be a bit broken.

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 13:33
The Thunderhawk Gunship doesn't ring any bells?
The thunderhawk is a super heavy transport. Vampire Raider doesn't ring any bells?
Now don't tell me I should compare a Rhino with a Thunderhawk, a Storm Raven with a Thunderhawk or a Venom with a Vampire Raider.
:shifty:
You are absolutely not thinking in the right proportions at all, because since when did Space Marines *ever* field a super heavy transport for 900 points in a regular 40k game? Never.

And no, it is *not* even a "fast skimmer". It is a super heavy flyer.


Anyway, please return to the original topic.

.

Shamana
14-02-2011, 13:41
Ayup. Anyway, I think that with the increasing number of units that can outflank, deepstrike, etc it would not be out of order to give craftworld eldar some form of webway portal, like the one Ulthwe had for the Eye of Terror campaign. There have already been some discussions on that, but do you think it's feasible to have a vehicle or psyker able to "open" such a portal some distance away - up to 12 or 24 inches, for example - instead of in proximity to the model. It could be a psychic power opening a portal for a turn, a support vehicle with a, say, warpspace inductor instead of a main gun, or a one-use vehicle wargear.

Do you think it could be balanced? Being able to cause a portal away from the model is a novel ability as far as I know, and it could certainly disrupt the way various armies (especially shooting armies) work.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 13:50
Ayup. Anyway, I think that with the increasing number of units that can outflank, deepstrike, etc it would not be out of order to give craftworld eldar some form of webway portal, like the one Ulthwe had for the Eye of Terror campaign. There have already been some discussions on that, but do you think it's feasible to have a vehicle or psyker able to "open" such a portal some distance away - up to 12 or 24 inches, for example - instead of in proximity to the model. It could be a psychic power opening a portal for a turn, a support vehicle with a warpspace inductor (or however else you want to call it), or a one-use vehicle "item" working like a missile.

Do you think it could be balanced? Being able to cause a portal away from the model is a novel ability as far as I know.

Sounds great. It could be an upgrade for D-Cannon perhaps. Let them open a stableish gate to the webway rather than a rift to the warp. Put the D-Cannon on a tank and you have what you described.

How about a new kind of aspect warrior unit on eldar jetbikes with eldar missile launchers? These are heavy weapon but bikes can move and fire heavy weapons. Might be a bit close to vipers but you could make them moderately powerful in an assault to compensate.

Shamana
14-02-2011, 14:02
Actually, I'd prefer making vypers regular "upgraded" jetbikes (like attack bikes for marines) and including hornets in the codex; you can just give them EMLs then. Pricing might be trickier... Considering SM attack bikes have base toughness and strength of 4 (and thus are much harder to instakill), would 35 points be ok for a "vyper" jetbike with shuriken cannon, BS 4 (innate or via an upgrade included in the cost) and 2 wounds at T3(4) ?

You could have Nuadhu Fireheart giving them an upgrade and making them better in combat.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 14:31
Actually, I'd prefer making vypers regular "upgraded" jetbikes (like attack bikes for marines) and including hornets in the codex; you can just give them EMLs then. Pricing might be trickier... Considering SM attack bikes have base toughness and strength of 4 (and thus are much harder to instakill), would 35 points be ok for a "vyper" jetbike with shuriken cannon, BS 4 (innate or via an upgrade included in the cost) and 2 wounds at T3(4) ?

You could have Nuadhu Fireheart giving them an upgrade and making them better in combat.

35pts sounds too cheap. That is the same as a shining spear or wraithguard and this unit is certainly superior to the former. Then again it's probably not as good as a wraithguard so who knows.

Shamana
14-02-2011, 15:03
35pts sounds too cheap. That is the same as a shining spear or wraithguard and this unit is certainly superior to the former.

Good, imo both are kinda overpriced, especially the spears ;) . I'm comparing it with the SM attack bike here, which is priced a bit higher but comes with a heavy bolter (which I consider a near equivalent for the shuriken cannon), T4(5), and somewhat better in melee. I think 35 points is decent for a base cost, although I can imagine that if the shuriken catapult gets a buff it could come with a TL shuriken catapult for those points and have the cannon as a 5-point upgrade, if we can consider the jetbike rules an equivalent exchange for the attack bike's advantages.

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 15:13
The only thing I would be sad about is if Vypers would turn to upgraded jetbikes and would require a jetbike-squad in order to field them.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 15:21
I wouldn't say wraithguard are overpriced. They are basicaly fire dragons with a 3+ save and a toughness value high enough the bolt guns wound them on 6s. That is well worth 35pts in my book even without their other advantages.

I just can't afford to spend over 7 a model on them.

I agree about the shining spears though.

Dead7
14-02-2011, 16:22
i like this idea of tank shocking helping in assault. maybe a unit that has been shocked gets its i cut in half for the following assault phase. i imagine this as a brb rule not an eldar rule though... back on topic:

i would rather have current eldar units be made what they should be rather than getting new units. imo banshees should be able to kill 2x their number of marines on the charge. exarchs and warlocks should have 2 wounds, all aspects should have 2 attacks, farseers should be among the most feared psykers in the game. eldar are suposed to be elite specialists, but they barely live up to marine generalists in their own specializations, this is not right. an aspect warrior should be weaker than a marine in most feilds but much better at its specialization!!!

as for new units; i would like cc wraithguard, some falcon variants, and a few new (and old) heros would be really cool. they should also bring back 2 wound lesser hqs but i think gw has decided they dont have a place in 40k.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 16:49
eldar are suposed to be elite specialists, but they barely live up to marine generalists in their own specializations, this is not right. an aspect warrior should be weaker than a marine in most feilds but much better at its specialization!!!


But aren't marines just meant to be that good?

TheRatsInTheWalls
14-02-2011, 17:01
Ayup. Anyway, I think that with the increasing number of units that can outflank, deepstrike, etc it would not be out of order to give craftworld eldar some form of webway portal, like the one Ulthwe had for the Eye of Terror campaign. There have already been some discussions on that, but do you think it's feasible to have a vehicle or psyker able to "open" such a portal some distance away - up to 12 or 24 inches, for example - instead of in proximity to the model. It could be a psychic power opening a portal for a turn, a support vehicle with a, say, warpspace inductor instead of a main gun, or a one-use vehicle wargear.

Do you think it could be balanced? Being able to cause a portal away from the model is a novel ability as far as I know, and it could certainly disrupt the way various armies (especially shooting armies) work.

It would really bug me (and probably other Dark Eldar players) to see the Craftworlders get a better Webway Portal. A variation on the idea, like the proposed tank with the portal instead of a troop compartment, would be pretty cool. A big gun or a power which opens a portal half way across the field with limited risk to the user would be too much. Think about all the complaining about Marines taking our kit. Do you really want to do that to your dark cousins?


...Or letting a Guardian squad take a Prism Relay platform that can bounce Fire Prism shots around corners...

I know this idea already came up on the thread, but I really like it. The model would probably be fantastic as well. Trouble is, they are probably not going to recut the Guardian sprew (unless they want to make it also a Storm Guardian sprew) so we'll all need to convert it.
It would be equally interesting if the platform were actually a mini-Fire Prism, and could contribute a lesser benefit to an actual Fire Prism's shot.


Actually, I'd prefer making vypers regular "upgraded" jetbikes (like attack bikes for marines) and including hornets in the codex; you can just give them EMLs then. Pricing might be trickier... Considering SM attack bikes have base toughness and strength of 4 (and thus are much harder to instakill), would 35 points be ok for a "vyper" jetbike with shuriken cannon, BS 4 (innate or via an upgrade included in the cost) and 2 wounds at T3(4) ?

You could have Nuadhu Fireheart giving them an upgrade and making them better in combat.

I can see this happening, and that pricing sounds pretty fair to me. Perhaps the twin-linked Shuriken Catapult build would be more so.


The only thing I would be sad about is if Vypers would turn to upgraded jetbikes and would require a jetbike-squad in order to field them.

That won't matter once they finally release the new Jetbike Models.

Dead7
14-02-2011, 17:03
But aren't marines just meant to be that good?

no they are not met to be just that good, at least they werent. marines specialization was being tough, other than that they were average in every other way. now they are the best in literally every field, just look at the rumors for the gk dex. i wouldnt be surprised if they were even stronger when they are released. but if a xeno dex had half of that stuff everyone would cry broken. is the new 40k a game about marines being awesome and everyone else just being fodder for them to kill? actually, it is going that way. RAGE!!! /rant

troll accomplished frim ;)

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 17:14
That won't matter once they finally release the new Jetbike Models.
Excuse me, but why won't it matter? I do not want to field any Jetbike units, just in order to be able to field Vyper Jetbikes.


i wouldnt be surprised if they were even stronger when they are released.
What could be harder than a unit of Marines with Storm Bolters and Force Weapons (power swords) plus being a psyker for only 20 points? I really can't imagine. Ah well, maybe Wraithlords for 40 points as troops choice. But we know only the first will happen, the 2nd won't.

TheRatsInTheWalls
14-02-2011, 17:17
no they are not met to be just that good, at least they werent. marines specialization was being tough, other than that they were average in every other way. now they are the best in literally every field, just look at the rumors for the gk dex. i wouldnt be surprised if they were even stronger when they are released. but if a xeno dex had half of that stuff everyone would cry broken. is the new 40k a game about marines being awesome and everyone else just being fodder for them to kill? actually, it is going that way. RAGE!!! /rant

troll accomplished frim ;)

Well, they are crying broken over in the Grey Knights thread. It's been a nearly constant whinge fest for about 15 pages now (and perhaps not without good reason).

TheRatsInTheWalls
14-02-2011, 17:18
Excuse me, but why won't it matter? I do not want to field any Jetbike units, just in order to be able to field Vyper Jetbikes.

...

My bad mate, most people dislike the Jetbikes for the models, not the rules. I should not have assumed.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 17:23
no they are not met to be just that good, at least they werent. marines specialization was being tough, other than that they were average in every other way. now they are the best in literally every field, just look at the rumors for the gk dex. i wouldnt be surprised if they were even stronger when they are released. but if a xeno dex had half of that stuff everyone would cry broken. is the new 40k a game about marines being awesome and everyone else just being fodder for them to kill? actually, it is going that way. RAGE!!! /rant

troll accomplished frim ;)

I wasn't trying to troll. :angel:

I thought the same thing when I started 40k. I thourght it bizare that a space marine tactical squad could come out on top from a fight with an equal number of banshees when they are (roughly) the same number of point per model and banshees are close combat specialists. As I played more games I just got used to the idea. I stopped feilding banshees and wrote my army lists basicaly arround killing marines reasoning "If they can kill marines they can kill anything".

I basicaly just started playing a short range shooting eldar army reasoning that this was something marines really couldnt' do as well. A tactical marine squad may roll up in a rhino and shoot 7 bolters, a plasma pistol a flamer and a melta gun (or whatever). A squad of warlocks can place 8 flame templates with the heavy flamer profile the turn it disembarks. A squad of fire dragons (I know I keep saying this) can shoot 9 melta guns and a heavy flamer as it disembarks. Wraithguard are less portable and much less afordable but once they are within 12" they are as good as fire dragons and much tougher.

I have just come to the conclusion that the way to play eldar is to get within 12" of whatever you decide to kill (while keeping just out of assault range of everything else), reduce it to dust in a single round of shooting (with whatever weapon/aspect warriors are appropriate to the job) and then move on to the next target. I'm fairly sure this is something marines still can't do.

Dark reapers are still able to kill marines. 3 squad of 3 reapers with exarch, reaper launcher and fast shot should be able to kill an entire marine squad from 36" away. You pay for it in points but they can do it.

It does make both banshees, scorpians and worst of all harlequins rather redundant but I just thought that was one of those things. After all, in the path of the warrior book aspect warriors can't really kill space marines easily.


So really I suppose with regards to new units we might like it is a question of deciding if we want to have close combat options or just get better at what we do. Even just letting aspect warriors assault from wave serpents moving full tilt would make these worth taking.

That said I think dark eldar wytches are stupidly underpriced.

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 17:28
No, just because they can kill Space Marines, they can't kill everything yet.
Try IG blobs or Orks or Gaunts or Kroot and all of a sudden the Fire Dragons will get eaten alive.

A T3-model with 35 (Warlock+Destructor) points shall better really rock. Actually I think for these costs they are rather underwhelming. 5 of those already cost 175 points. And these 5 fellows aren't really hard to wipe out either unless you decide to stick the 120-points farseer into them which will boost the points to nearly 300. And boy, for 300 points you can really hurt plenty in other ways. That is 3 Warwalkers on scatter lasers plus a Wraithlord or 8 Scorpions after all! Now consider you need a Serpent to transport the Warlocks and you knock at about 400 points for 6 models and a transport... You better not find someone to rapid-fire at them.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 17:34
It's a case of numbers obviously. They will kill just as many of those cheaper units as they will marines there will just clearly be more to kill. I take the dragons breath flamer for this eventuality as well of course.

Anyway it's not like that's the entire army. Even after 30 fire dragons and transports there are plenty of points left over in most games. The 8 distructor seer council does fine against hordes too.

Dead7
14-02-2011, 17:35
I have just come to the conclusion that the way to play eldar is to get within 12" of whatever you decide to kill...

luckly the local meta around here is quite a bit different, we only have one marine player and he is ridiculously bad (he has won one one v one (lol) game in the three years hes been playing) i have to design my army around av 14 spam (stupid ig). its not really the fact that banshees cant take down marines that bothers me, its that marine armies are literally better in every way now; they have better skimmers, psykers, weapons, ect. soon they will have the wraithlord +1 too. its crap like this that makes me want to play a different game. unfortunately im kind of broke now and no one else has any money to switch over either (and they are mostly imperium fanboys)

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 17:38
Anyway it's not like that's the entire army. Even after 30 fire dragons and transports there are plenty of points left over in most games.
Not at our typical game size of 1000 points.

Shamana
14-02-2011, 17:43
It would really bug me (and probably other Dark Eldar players) to see the Craftworlders get a better Webway Portal. A variation on the idea, like the proposed tank with the portal instead of a troop compartment, would be pretty cool. A big gun or a power which opens a portal half way across the field with limited risk to the user would be too much. Think about all the complaining about Marines taking our kit. Do you really want to do that to your dark cousins?

Hey, just because some of us don't decorate Imperial bases with their defenders' intestines for s..ts and giggles doesn't mean we're nice ;)

Actually, I'm thinking about any mention of DE superiority in webway technology - I think I haven't seen one. As I said, craftworld Eldar have been stated to use webway portals in battle, both in that superheavy grav-tank (storm serpent iirc), and in the EoT list, if not elsewhere. I'm not sure if they didn't have it in the 2E/3E codices either.

The whole "limited risk to the user" needn't be a problem depending on pricing. When I talked about a vehicle having this as its main "gun" I meant that the vehicle has no other primary weapon. Something like a 130 points (with the falcon chassis), having only that and the good old TL catapult. Although I do think that it might be simpler to just have it as a psychic power - a bit like the gate SM libbies can get, you roll once in the beginning of the turn and if you get the power off, you can place a webway portal within 12 inches of the seer for any reinforcements coming that turn.

@ Hendarion: I'd turn to the SM codex again. We could have the vyper both in the regular JB squadrons, like the shrieker jetbike now (that is how the shuri-cannon jetbike is called, right), and in separate squadrons of its own (naturally in the FA slot, not as troop choice). The regular JB units would stay as a troop choice with one or a few vypers providing the added punch, like special weapons in a marine squad, while specialized vyper squadrons would be a FA choice, like now, only using the jetbike rules and counted as a regular unit, not a vehicle squadron (this would go to the heavier hornets).

The only thing that worries me is that a jetbike unit with several vypers could be decried as foul due to wound allocation BS, but that could be negated by requiring all vypers to have the same weaponry.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 17:45
@Dead7
I know what you mean. Both 40k and Fantasy are an extremely commercial now to the extent that game-play is sacrificed in favour of making the most popular models better.

I am very fond of 3.5 D&D. It requires few models and ballance isn't an issue the rules are free as well. My avatar is a gnome model I sculpted for this game (20mmx20mm base).

Or if you want a war-game per-se then just pick one with better rules and use whatever GW models you have and seem appropriate. You could even make your own game.

But on the other hand does it matter if Marines are better if there are none on the table? Or does it matter that they become an ultra elite and very small army if you outnumber them with your eldar?

@Hendarion
The same thing works scaled down. A fire dragons only cost as much as a marine and two squads of 10 are more than sufficient to wipe out a 10 man squad of marines or most terminator squads. 2 fire dragon squads fo 10 men + transports are c600pts and are not entirely helpless against hordes. Just take anti horde stuff for the rest of the army.

If you dont' want to play this kind of army then I have every sympathy though. GW does not accomodate different army types well.

@Shamana
Even exactly the same rules as the ulthwe strike force webway portal would be fine by me.

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 17:52
But on the other hand does it matter if Marines are better if there are none on the table? Or does it matter that they become an ultra elite and very small army if you outnumber them with your eldar?
Well, for 20 points each, being a psyker and having Storm Bolters and Force Weapons, you can field a LOT of these guys and an Eldar Army won't really outnumber these at all, except you wanna field Guardians (which I won't recommend much vs. Storm-Bolter-Marines either!).

600 points for 20 Fire Dragons is like 60% of the points we normally use to play. There isn't really much left after wasting another 200 for the troop choices ;) Trust me, in my local group you'd just get wiped with 20 dragons in a 1000 point game. Combat Squads and tanks will obliterate your dragons by Heavy Bolters, Assault-Cannons and rapid-fire Bolters after they have killed a 5-man-Combat-Squad or two. That's 150 points vs. 400... big outch for ya.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 17:55
Well, for 20 points each, being a psyker and having Storm Bolters and Force Weapons, you can field a LOT of these guys and an Eldar Army won't really outnumber these at all, except you wanna field Guardians (which I won't recommend much vs. Storm-Bolter-Marines either!).

Erm, are we talking grey knights here? You know those are being redone?
I don't know what they do exactly or how many they are allowed but although under-priced that doesn't sound too much of a problem.

I don't know what kind of armies you see but there is no unit I have ever feilded that has been as points effective as a fire dragon squad. Even without a transport (thats 172pts for a 10 man unit) they are an excelent squad.

TheRatsInTheWalls
14-02-2011, 17:56
Hey, just because some of us don't decorate Imperial bases with their defenders' intestines for s..ts and giggles doesn't mean we're nice ;)

Actually, I'm thinking about any mention of DE superiority in webway technology - I think I haven't seen one. As I said, craftworld Eldar have been stated to use webway portals in battle, both in that superheavy grav-tank (storm serpent iirc), and in the EoT list, if not elsewhere. I'm not sure if they didn't have it in the 2E/3E codices either.

The whole "limited risk to the user" needn't be a problem depending on pricing. When I talked about a vehicle having this as its main "gun" I meant that the vehicle has no other primary weapon. Something like a 130 points (with the falcon chassis), having only that and the good old TL catapult. Although I do think that it might be simpler to just have it as a psychic power - a bit like the gate SM libbies can get, you roll once in the beginning of the turn and if you get the power off, you can place a webway portal within 12 inches of the seer for any reinforcements coming that turn.
...

TeHe, fair enough.

You are right, there is no mention of Dark Eldar Webway superiority, but neither is there reference of Craftworld superiority. I'd love to be able to play an Ulthwe strike force again, but that doesn't mean I'd like seeing Ulthwe do it easier. Webway Portals all around is fine, as is a variation on the idea. The Dark Eldar are supposed to be more mobile however, and a Farseer, or a gun dropping a new portal a turn kinda kicks that out the window (even if it closes the last one and is appropriately costed).

Perhaps if it only worked for one unit a turn, rather than all reserve roles, and/or if it was from a list of designated Webway units rather than anyone...

Or, returning to the Autarch powers discussed earlier, it could require an Autarch with "Webway Commander" to arrange for such a deployment, as coming through a temporary portal at the right time and place would be dangerous and unreliable. It doesn't quite fix the problem, but it does make it more interesting.

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 17:56
Erm, are we talking grey knights here? You know those are being redone?
I don't know what they do exactly or how many they are allowed but although under-priced that doesn't sound too much of a problem.
Yea. And we are talking about the NEW stats here already!
20 points, default Marine stats, Storm Bolter and Force Weapon (power weapon with instant-kill-ability). Add Psyker Level 1. Voila, Grey Knight in power armour. Troop choice! 20 of those make 400 points. Outch. Your Dragons would need to kill 30 of 'em... in other words 6 Combat Squads. Even if you wipe 2 in one turn, you're most likely gonna die in the next turn.

Dead7
14-02-2011, 18:00
although iirc the new force weaps arnt as good. but thats for a different thread.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 18:05
Yea. And we are talking about the NEW stats here already!
20 points, default Marine stats, Storm Bolter and Force Weapon (power weapon with instant-kill-ability). Add Psyker Level 1. Voila, Grey Knight in power armour. Troop choice! 20 of those make 400 points. Outch. Your Dragons would need to kill 30 of 'em...

They could do it. Really. It's just a question of careful positioning so that only the ones you want to shoot are in assault range. If necessary I can sarrifice some other squad to buy some time. I have even sacrificed my farseer at times and it has been worth it. What Psykic power do they get anyway?

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 18:06
Check the Grey Knights Rumours (3) topic in the news section. Also they don't need to be in assualt range, 10 GK will kill about 5 Dragons just by shooting at 24" range each turn. They can wait, you can't.

Shamana
14-02-2011, 18:11
@ TheRatsInTheWalls: If the webway gate is a psychic power, it would obviously only be for one turn. You roll your test, and if you win, you can place a webway portal there for one turn. If you can't manage the test next turn, reinforcements can only come the usual way.

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 18:15
Check the Grey Knights Rumours (3) topic in the news section. Also they don't need to be in assualt range, 10 GK will kill about 5 Dragons just by shooting at 24" range each turn. They can wait, you can't.

So 200pts of one unit can kill 80pts of some other unit in one turn. So what? 9 (144pts) fire dragons can kill 100pts of grey knights in one turn.

Yes, ranges make a difference but it's not the end of the world.

TheRatsInTheWalls
14-02-2011, 18:19
@ TheRatsInTheWalls: If the webway gate is a psychic power, it would obviously only be for one turn. You roll your test, and if you win, you can place a webway portal there for one turn. If you can't manage the test next turn, reinforcements can only come the usual way.

Yes, I was aware of that when I made my post.

Obrimos
14-02-2011, 18:28
I think discussing how Eldar are underpowered and Marines broken, doesn't lead to anything.

Fact is that other armies are stealing our army themes. The Falcon is no match for an IG Valkyrie or a storm raven. They do everything the falcon does but better. IG can have veteran armies to put up a force comparable to aspect warriors. Does this suck? I don't think so.

I seriously don't mind as long as I get the cool toys of the other armies as well.
Of course this would eventually lead to all armies having a counterpart for every other unit in the game, so the choice of your army would be a purely aesthetic one. Sure some will still be less elite but would make up in number or special rules or whatever.

So all I'm saying is that if my benefits get stolen I want my weaknesses to vanish as well. Thats all. I don't mind fighting Orks in power armour. I don't mind fighting IG with Landspeeders. I already did that when I was 15.

Ghostplate armour and refractor fields for all Eldar, hooray!!!
There go the Eldar marines!!!

Cheers!

Hendarion
14-02-2011, 18:29
So 200pts of one unit can kill 80pts of some other unit in one turn. So what? 9 (144pts) fire dragons can kill 100pts of grey knights in one turn. .
And then the dragons will die. 160 points lost to 100 killed. Not a good ratio :p

boogaloo
14-02-2011, 19:44
Don't see how that will change anything. They will get to 12" range with their catapults, shoot and then move between 1 and 6" away. Which is still in range of enemy retaliation and even lasguns annihilate eldar. A unit that moves 6" will then be between 7" and 12" away from them, enabling rapid fire and the destruction of the unit. The only thing that rule will do is protect them in some very small cases when enemy heavy weaponry is just far enough away from them that if they move they will put themselves out of range. But that would almost always be 36" ranged wepaons, anything with a longer range is unlikely to be far enough away.
Hellebore

Actually Hellbore I kinda like it. True, 12" weapons are pretty bull on the eldar... But that's true for all eldar, fire dragons, warp spiders, jet bikers, even (from a fluff perspective) a falcon grav-tank with a 12" gun is pretty silly.

What I like about it is that you force your opponent to make a choice. which is a pretty easy choice for your opponent if you move forward, shoot, and then mov six inches back. But... If you move forward, shoot, and move six inches to the side, then your opponent has to make a choice between moving towards the objective or dedicating 2 turns (one turn moving towards them and rapid firing, and one turn moving back to the orignal position) to remove a cheap guardian squad, or continuing towards the objective.

I think it's actually a rather elegant fix, while maintaining the whole eldar "our tactics are beyond yours you foolish mon-keigh" and provides a round about tactic that doesn't rely directly on stats.

But yes 12" weapons are a bit daft for an enlightened race that values each citizen. Quite!

Kresterz
14-02-2011, 21:21
Just to say marines are the hero in 40K is an understatement.

I am seriously tired of them and they are seriously annoying...

I hope we get something GOOD in the next codex. Otherwise I will scream my heart out

Frimbleglim
14-02-2011, 22:08
And then the dragons will die. 160 points lost to 100 killed. Not a good ratio :p

Look, if you really want to compare them then set up an even points scenario with reasonable terrain. They will basically fight each other to a standstill (or very nearly).

In any case generally fire dragons are some of the best models eldar can feild. Of course there is stuff that can kill them and of course if I come up with a certain stratagy or army list you will be able to write a list that will beat it. I could write an eldar list that would decimate such a grey knight army (as I am sure you could) but that does not mean they are useless or even sub standard troops. Conversly just because you can write a list that would kill my fire dragon heavy list does not make it a bad choice. I would be very surprised if you could find any list in the game that could not be countered with some other extreme list.

PS. As it happens I agree that space marines are probably overpowered. They don't seem to be tournament players army of choice though (perhaps with the exception of the space wolves variant), and if the army is overpowered then it is because some models are under-priced rather than because they are too versatile.

AlexHolker
15-02-2011, 03:11
It would really bug me (and probably other Dark Eldar players) to see the Craftworlders get a better Webway Portal. A variation on the idea, like the proposed tank with the portal instead of a troop compartment, would be pretty cool. A big gun or a power which opens a portal half way across the field with limited risk to the user would be too much. Think about all the complaining about Marines taking our kit. Do you really want to do that to your dark cousins?
It also strikes me as a weapon that is more suited to Chaos than the Eldar. Daemons are less likely to have bad things happen to them (or the Webway) if the rift isn't very neat.

Hendarion
15-02-2011, 04:59
but that does not mean they are useless or even sub standard troops.
Just to note: Fire Dragons are elite, not troops ;) Grey Knights are troops :p

Dead7
15-02-2011, 05:54
now if we start to compare our troops...
although in all honesty, you are comparing one of the strongest units in our dex to what looks to be one of the weakest in theirs yet the eldar are still sub par.

Shamana
15-02-2011, 08:08
I'd rather not compare stats of our codex and one that hasn't gone out yet, though. I think that the DE/BA codices might be better measuring sticks - they also deal with mobile, hard-hitting and elite armies, which is how I imagine the craftworld eldar should play. GK should provide an example of a psyker-heavy army, but it remains to be seen how it will play or how balanced it will be.

BTW, with the inclusion of several new fliers in the last few codices - Vendetta, Storm Raven, Voidraven - do you think the next CE codex might have some new "skimmers" along those lines, different from what we've seen from either GW or Forgeworld?

Hendarion
15-02-2011, 08:21
Well, I do expect the Nightwing with a different design. Although it would be better to give this new thing a new name ("Owl" or "Void Owl" would own :D) instead and leave the Nightwing on its own to prevent a re-design and me getting angry about plastic Nightwings :p
(not to mention that for sales-numbers a new additional one is always better than replacing an existing one)

Frimbleglim
15-02-2011, 09:28
Just to note: Fire Dragons are elite, not troops ;) Grey Knights are troops :p

Sure, I played beil-tan for a long time and forget to use the word model instead of troops for aspect warriors sometimes. That does not effect the issue though.

@Dead7
Well yes, they probably are sub par as an army. My point was about that there are still things that eldar can do better than space marines and I gave feilding an entire squad of special weapons as an example. They are not in any rate sufficently sub par that we couldn't give this speculative new list a run for it's money. Also, fire dragons perform similarly against pretty much everything man for man and so do much better against more expensive models.

KarlPedder
15-02-2011, 09:45
Eldar don't need any new units yes I'm sure they will get a flyer or 2 maybe Nightspinners simply because GW wont redo a codex without adding new units but a rebalancing of existing units would be plenty there are like 20+ units already.....
Tau could do with more units, so could Necrons and the Inquisition armies to a lesser extent but the othe armies already have plenty of units

Hendarion
15-02-2011, 10:07
Tau could do with more units, so could Necrons and the Inquisition armies to a lesser extent but the othe armies already have plenty of units
That is not the interest of this topic though. This topic is about pure wishlisting.

Sai-Lauren
15-02-2011, 12:02
And that is where I absolutely disagree. Giving Space Marines a nicely armoured fast skimmer with deep strike abolity is clearly overlapping into Eldar and Dark Eldar territory and totally against each transportation-concept that Space Marines had used for like 20 years. And not only this transport is well armoured and faster than default Eldar-vehicles which are said to be the fastest of all, no, it is also superbly fitted with a load of weapons. It's a jack of all trades device and that is bad imo.

Not got the BA army book, but is it a Transport unit? The Wave Serpent is.

Also, they've had the Thunderhawk for years, except that because they're Forge World, no one can afford one. Land Speeders date back to around the release of the Eldar Jetbike, if not slightly before. And of course, there was the deodorant bottle Grav-Tank, many, many years ahead of even the epic Falcons.

So, are Marines playing in Eldar space, or are Eldar playing in Marine space? ;)

And to an extent, it's not the idea of the Thunderduck, sorry, Stormraven that's the issue - it's GW's execution of it.



In 40k, I think defender preparedness is generally represented by initiative, cover/difficult terrain, frag grenades etc. Remember, it's not a matter of dismounting (all units can do that, it's being able to dismount and yet having enough momentum to charge at an enemy. IMO eldar, as favoring speed (especially in assault) have as good a reason to have such an ability as anyone - arguably more so than marines.

Cover, defensive grenades and preparations are no use if you're picking yourself off the floor, only to get a sword in the back.

Basically, there's only one thing at the moment that allows assaults from armoured vehicles - Land Raiders.

I don't want Eldar to just wind up as "Wave Serpent rush", but equally, I feel that they really need something like my proposal to allow units to get into combat on their terms, not their opponents.



It's a very risky tactic that can blow up in your face even if you do it right - in an army that fluffwise is highly risk-averse and conscious of their own losses. Dude, it practically is a "full ahead and damn the torpedoes non-tactic," only the marines have the decency to a) do it in a Land Raider, and b) leave the ride some distance from the fight so it doesn't get wrecked by one guy with a powerfist. It just doesn't strike me as a good fit thematically and plowing through with a relatively lightly-armored skimmer (especially against melee) that serves as a transport vehicle strikes me as a foolhardy and generally unnecessary risk. This would look fun in an ork army, maybe a chaos one, but crafworld eldar? What is next, throwing waves of soldiers and the avatar against an Ultramarine-defended fortified position?

And if necessary, we could push the balance back a bit. What do you think would work? Remember, you've still got the normal field, this would be effectively an upgrade to it. And if you're launching your assault unsupported, you do kind of deserve what you get.

Maybe we could add extra options for things like EMLs and/or Spinner weapons, to pin down or disrupt other enemy units. Maybe even make the shock field a pulse effect to hit all units in a certain range, so that neighbouring units can't retaliate easily.

However, the more disruption-type effects we have, the less fun it is for the person on the receiving end of them when they can't do what they want with their army - likely to the point of "your army's pure cheese", probably to the point of not playing against Eldar again, possibly to the point of giving up the game.



I would imagine much the same thing as if you hit a banshee squad with terminators, assault marines and death company all in one turn.

No, because the individual units in that case don't interact with each other - you can do the Death Company first just like they hit the Banshees on their own, then the Assault Marines in the same manner and finally the Terminators (assuming there's any Banshees left).

If they did interact, you'd have to look up all three units, work out how they all interact with each other and the Banshees rules, then apply it all in order.



Also if each unit just gives a small penalty to the enemy such as dire avengers giving them -1 to hit or banshees giving enemies +1 to hit them (not a million miles away from the current rules in fact).

Such combo charges could be made significantly more effective without creating a rules headache.

And if they're small effects, then the question starts to be "what's the point?" ;)

If you're going to do that kind of interaction, it needs to be big, something that really does reward the player for jumping through the hoops they need to get it working.

IMO, with that, they would basically need to be able to give Marneus Calgar a wedgie, hold Abaddon down and cut his top knot off, flick Ghazghull's ears until he cries like a little girl and shove Farsight's blade, handle first, up his left nostril - at the same time. :D



Fair point, but there is no limit to the number of them you can squeese into a 60 card deck. The way games tend to go is evey card that is played improves say 1/2-1/6 the other cards in play in a normal combo deck. They build up quickly starting turn 1 or 2. And that's ignoring slivver decks.

Well, the 60 card deck does limit it. :D

But unless you're playing Highlander (and that can be a good way to find new combos that you may not have previously considered), most combo-decks are based around a single idea with multiples of the main cards in order to get the combo off quickly - you don't have the space to put multiple combos in.

And MTG cards are self-contained, you as the player have to spot the combo potential. For the kind of interaction you're proposing, you'd almost be looking at a massive table of the potential interactions - Banshees with all other units, Avengers with all other units and so on.



Fact is that other armies are stealing our army themes. The Falcon is no match for an IG Valkyrie or a storm raven. They do everything the falcon does but better. IG can have veteran armies to put up a force comparable to aspect warriors. Does this suck? I don't think so.

Well, they do everything Eldar can at the moment. If that's still the case after the codex gets done, then it's a serious problem - sadly, it'll be too late then.

Hendarion
15-02-2011, 12:03
Not got the BA army book, but is it a Transport unit? The Wave Serpent is.
I didn't say "dedicated transport". But still it clearly is a transport vehicle that can carry 10 folks and 1 Dread.

Bubble Ghost
15-02-2011, 13:22
I like the idea of the Wave Serpent energy field meaning they can't be assaulted if they move at cruising speed or faster (enemies get repelled or knocked flat by the energy field, basically the same effect as a tank shock bonus would represent, but more flexible) - and for this to extend to disembarked units if they take no further movement after disembarking.

No, it wouldn't be as good as assault vehicle, not for assaulting at any rate, but it would also be a little more useful than an assault vehicle for capturing objectives and just generally getting around, which is the sort of speed Eldar ought to have (as opposed to RAAAWRGH psychotic charge Tyranid variety speed). Something like that effect would make it a sort of dignified, thinking man's assault vehicle - and more importantly, not just a jealous co-opting of what someone else can do.

Plus it would be frustrating for your opponent, and I think Eldar ought to be frustrating to play against in a punch-whiffing-through-thin-air sense, but not to the extent that he's helpless to do anything about it. That's an important balance.

Anyway. I just think that "speed" doesn't have to only mean psychotic charging into melee. I know this isn't technically a new unit but it's a wish for the direction of the whole army, not just wave serpents...

Shamana
15-02-2011, 13:24
Cover, defensive grenades and preparations are no use if you're picking yourself off the floor, only to get a sword in the back.

Sai, what you describe here is the kind of surpression the game represents with frag/plasma grenades; something like that is provided via wargear on various transports (frag launchers, stikkbomb chuckas, etc) and is not related to what makes the vehicle assault or not. I think the concept of assault vehicles relies on whether the troops inside the vehicle are able to gain sufficient momentum going into the ground to charge after disembarking. In the case of open-topped transports they leap down from the vehicle compartment, in the case of the land raider the vehicle itself comes with a ramp that facilitates their assault.


Basically, there's only one thing at the moment that allows assaults from armoured vehicles - Land Raiders.

I don't want Eldar to just wind up as "Wave Serpent rush", but equally, I feel that they really need something like my proposal to allow units to get into combat on their terms, not their opponents.


With the current price of wave serpents, I doubt we'll get something like a "rush" with them. Now, I do appreciate the fact that so far only Land raiders have had that ability (unless I am forgetting other assault vehicles here) but unless the eldar get another transport with that role, I think that an upgrade on the wave serpent making it an assault vehicle (frontal ramp allowing the carried unit to leap into battle) would neither be a fluff abomination or wreck the game balance.

I fully agree with the idea that the Eldar, as an army relying on speed and synergy, need something to allow their transport to work better with the assault aspects - I just find the idea that you NEED to tankshock first to be an unnecessary complication.

Frimbleglim
15-02-2011, 13:39
@Sai-Lauren
Those might sound like small changes but they would make a huge difference. -1 to hit or +1 to hit are huge advantages. That would be warlocks for example hitting on a 2+ against marines and then wounding on a 2+ as normal. It would also be autarchs hit only on 6s by conscripts or hit on 5s by marines. If there are a lot of attacks that could be the difference between your autarch dieing or not dieing.

In any case the point is that you can create huge advantages to multiple charges with very simple rules.

You don't have to play a 60 card deck in most MTG games in fact several cards only work in larger decks. Battle of wits for example. There are many ways of building combo decks. sometimes the way you suggest doesn't give the best result (although I agree it usualy does).

Fable
15-02-2011, 14:50
Just to say marines are the hero in 40K is an understatement.

I am seriously tired of them and they are seriously annoying...

I hope we get something GOOD in the next codex. Otherwise I will scream my heart out

I think my major problem with the Eldar dex currently is it seems to be at a bad spot in the design ethos. The old blue dex was ok in 3rd edition around its initial release, though there were some major flaws. Once the Chaos 3.5 book came out it was about as useful as wet toilet paper, and that doesn't even take account of the flavor of the month marine Index Astartes articles that were coming out, seemingly completely un-playtested creating a myriad list of special gear for our opponents.

When Eldar hit in 4th edition it was at the beginning of the latter half and the Ethos had just shifted to a more simplified approach, with less gear (see C:CSM for reference). Then 5th edition rolls around and the books are vastly different in point cost and capability.

Since the launch of 3rd edition Rhinos have gone down 15 pts and gained the ability to repair themselves from an immobilized.

Since the launch of 3rd edition Wave Serpents have had their front and side armor reduced from 14 to 12 (BBB version of the field gave it 14 armor) with a field that has no effect against close combat, been reduced to a single embark/disembark point... at the rear, have lost the ability to shoot from inside the vehicle and have only come down 10 points, and currently cost nearly triple a Rhino.

The saddest thing about the dex is still the character wargear. Previously my farseer was allowed to upgrade a CCW to a Witchblade or singing spear. Now he's allowed to upgrade his Witchblade to a Singing spear. What's with that? That's something I think really needs to be addressed in a future book, amongst the vastly overblown prices we currently pay. 8 pts a guardian... what?!

Dunklezahn
16-02-2011, 09:20
I think that hits the nail on the head, the Eldar codex is despite not being that old (by GW update standards) has been badly left behind by recent changes.

Guardians weren't a great buy in the new dex anyway but now in a time of 5 point Guard/Gaunts and 6 point Ork Boyz they are hideously lacking. Now they were always a unit that got better with synergy (Like guide, doom, warlocks etc) but they have been left behind.

They've also had to watch as armies got faster and faster, run order guard, stormravens, the dark Eldar, Land raiders, thunderwolves, cheap transports, running in general and now one the the galaxies most advanced, lithe and graceful seem... slow.

The lack of assault vehicles killed banshee's and scorpions because now with cheap transports and the new speed of troops driving up in a wave serpent and having to sit waving for a turn means often the enemy has either killed you or moved away out of charge range before you can even disembark.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say Eldar are one of the dex's hit hardest by the 5th ed and recent codex's. Thats not to say they are alone (I'm sorry for your loss necron warriors, in fact their entire codex has been the whipping boy for some time now) but it's one of those things that certain armies based on their rules and how they work are affected differently by rules changes and paradigm shifts.

Of course instead of GW doing something sensible like planning around that and updating the dex's hardest hit by their upcoming changes they just squish the odd xenos dex in between the latest marine iteration that they thought up some awesome new rules and units for...

Had to get that off my chest but it basically relates to new units by saying I don't know specifically but anything new should be aimed toward the principle of bring speed back to the race.

Ravariel
16-02-2011, 09:25
I think that the biggest thing that will bring back the feel of the speed of the army would be to drop Scorpions to 4+ save (perhaps up their Str to 4 to compensate for losing durability?), give them fleet, and give the Eldar a special rule that allows their Fleet troops to roll two dice and pick the highest. Or perhaps allow them to run in the assault phase. That plus some new hulls and tweaking of vehicle points and I think the overall feel of the dex could be much improved (and yes, Guardians should be 6 or 7 points a piece).

Sai-Lauren
16-02-2011, 10:30
I like the idea of the Wave Serpent energy field meaning they can't be assaulted if they move at cruising speed or faster (enemies get repelled or knocked flat by the energy field, basically the same effect as a tank shock bonus would represent, but more flexible) - and for this to extend to disembarked units if they take no further movement after disembarking.

No, it wouldn't be as good as assault vehicle, not for assaulting at any rate, but it would also be a little more useful than an assault vehicle for capturing objectives and just generally getting around, which is the sort of speed Eldar ought to have (as opposed to RAAAWRGH psychotic charge Tyranid variety speed). Something like that effect would make it a sort of dignified, thinking man's assault vehicle - and more importantly, not just a jealous co-opting of what someone else can do.

Plus it would be frustrating for your opponent, and I think Eldar ought to be frustrating to play against in a punch-whiffing-through-thin-air sense, but not to the extent that he's helpless to do anything about it. That's an important balance.

Anyway. I just think that "speed" doesn't have to only mean psychotic charging into melee. I know this isn't technically a new unit but it's a wish for the direction of the whole army, not just wave serpents...

Hmm, interesting. Although IMO, that will mean that the opponent retreats their units away from the disembarked unit, likely out of next turns shooting/assault range, and brings in an assault unit to threaten the disembarked unit.

Or just opens up on the unit with every weapon they've got, unless you extend it to shooting as well.



Sai, what you describe here is the kind of surpression the game represents with frag/plasma grenades; something like that is provided via wargear on various transports (frag launchers, stikkbomb chuckas, etc) and is not related to what makes the vehicle assault or not. I think the concept of assault vehicles relies on whether the troops inside the vehicle are able to gain sufficient momentum going into the ground to charge after disembarking. In the case of open-topped transports they leap down from the vehicle compartment, in the case of the land raider the vehicle itself comes with a ramp that facilitates their assault.

Not really, IMO, the grenades aren't there to force the opponent to duck, they give the first strike because they're causing damage before the assaulting unit actually hits and count as part of their attacks - other weapon effects could be considered coup de graces (and I don't really like the mechanic, give me grenades I can actually throw and do real damage with :)).



With the current price of wave serpents, I doubt we'll get something like a "rush" with them. Now, I do appreciate the fact that so far only Land raiders have had that ability (unless I am forgetting other assault vehicles here) but unless the eldar get another transport with that role, I think that an upgrade on the wave serpent making it an assault vehicle (frontal ramp allowing the carried unit to leap into battle) would neither be a fluff abomination or wreck the game balance.

I fully agree with the idea that the Eldar, as an army relying on speed and synergy, need something to allow their transport to work better with the assault aspects - I just find the idea that you NEED to tankshock first to be an unnecessary complication.

I was just an idea based off some old fluff, Bubble Ghost's come up with an alternative thought based off it, which I think has a bit of a flaw, but it's potentially workable.

As another alternative, maybe we could use the old epic Wave Serpent rule - fire off an energy wave/pulse from the Serpent or maybe from another unit to allow the disembark assault, playing up the everything supports everything else angle.



@Sai-Lauren
Those might sound like small changes but they would make a huge difference. -1 to hit or +1 to hit are huge advantages. That would be warlocks for example hitting on a 2+ against marines and then wounding on a 2+ as normal. It would also be autarchs hit only on 6s by conscripts or hit on 5s by marines. If there are a lot of attacks that could be the difference between your autarch dieing or not dieing.

If there's that many attacks, that Autarch is probably dead anyway, all the modifiers will do is say whether there's anything left to identify afterwards ;).

The kind of effects I'm thinking of are things like opponent loses all attacks in combat, or enemy attacks hit themselves on to hits of 1, or loses all special rules (including things like immune to psychology or ATSKNF), or all Eldar attacks count as rending.



In any case the point is that you can create huge advantages to multiple charges with very simple rules.

Simple rules? Remember that this is GW we're talking about, where they didn't even stop to consider how things like PoTMS and Smoke interact, that had to FAQ the interaction of Banshee Masks and Lashwhips...

Based on the past, the odds of them turning this kind of interaction into something better than a total foul-up are not good. ;)



You don't have to play a 60 card deck in most MTG games in fact several cards only work in larger decks. Battle of wits for example. There are many ways of building combo decks. sometimes the way you suggest doesn't give the best result (although I agree it usualy does).

Most games are 60 cards, max four of non-lands barring specific restrictions. The four of gives you more chance of getting your cards out in a reasonable amount of time - short of library search/Puzzle Box/Divining Top or dredge with repeatable graveyard recursion, and even then, multiples are very useful.

Plus a combo deck is designed around getting that combination of cards in play and a little defence of the pieces - you'd pretty much have to design your army around lots of potential interactions, which weakens it.

Although you do get some "combo" decks which are mainly ways of showing off how clever you are to get around a problem with certain cards. :)

Other formats do exist (highlander, prismatic, 2HG etc), but they're not played as much. Maybe 40 card booster draft's the next most popular, but that's a lot harder to design and build combos with.

N3p3nth3
16-02-2011, 10:38
I think that the biggest thing that will bring back the feel of the speed of the army would be to drop Scorpions to 4+ save (perhaps up their Str to 4 to compensate for losing durability?), give them fleet, and give the Eldar a special rule that allows their Fleet troops to roll two dice and pick the highest. Or perhaps allow them to run in the assault phase. That plus some new hulls and tweaking of vehicle points and I think the overall feel of the dex could be much improved (and yes, Guardians should be 6 or 7 points a piece).

Not sure I'd futz with the save and str of scorps, what they really need is fleet, and in comparison to Incubi they sure can be given that with no extra drawbacks given to them.

Bubble Ghost
16-02-2011, 10:47
Hmm, interesting. Although IMO, that will mean that the opponent retreats their units away from the disembarked unit, likely out of next turns shooting/assault range, and brings in an assault unit to threaten the disembarked unit.

Or just opens up on the unit with every weapon they've got, unless you extend it to shooting as well.

So what, frankly? It would be far more help than anybody jumping out of a Rhino gets, and your opponent's response to it is entirely within your power to do something about. Eldar, synergy between units and all that.

Ravariel
16-02-2011, 11:14
Not sure I'd futz with the save and str of scorps, what they really need is fleet, and in comparison to Incubi they sure can be given that with no extra drawbacks given to them.

Well, Incubi also cost significantly more than scorps, so to give them a bump like fleet with 3+ armor, you'd likely need to boost them to 18 or 19 points which doesn't sound like much, but could make them enough worse than banshees to make them not worth taking. Also, Incubi aren't really a good comparison, due to the fact that they're like Scorps and Banshees put together and turned up to 11. They're usually overkill for anything you want to attack with them, and as such will obliterate one unit then get shot to pieces. At least with scorps you can plan to wipe a unit on the opponent's turn, rather than your own, and survive to fight again.

Also, I don't really want an Eldar version of Incubi, I simply want scorpions to be worth taking. Perhaps the "no fleet for 3+ armor" theme needs to go away, but I think that with the str4 +1 for chainsword, 4 attacks on the charge, 4+ armor and a now-str8 powerfist, with fleet and perhaps some shifting of exarch powers toward infitration and stealth (maybe give them infiltrate and stealth for free, with scouts and MTC as exarch powers?) and they'd be a powerful force without being the OP-to-their-own-detriment that the incubi are.

The current problem with scorps is that they are trying to be too many things at once: They want to be the high-str, many-attacks, stealthy, yet tough troop. I think if we remove one of these, we can then boost the other three to a place where they are useful. Considering that Jetbikes, Spiders and Reapers already kinda have the "tough" part covered, that one seems the most logical to remove. I mean, compare them to what banshees do: Fast, power weapons, and... well... fast. And honestly I think Banshees should get an exarch power that gives them furious charge, due to their focus on first-assault-efficacy, but that's just me.

Sai-Lauren
16-02-2011, 11:55
So what, frankly? It would be far more help than anybody jumping out of a Rhino gets, and your opponent's response to it is entirely within your power to do something about. Eldar, synergy between units and all that.
Most things jumping out of Rhino's have 3+ saves and 24" range weapons - the same cannot be said for anything jumping out of a Wave Serpent.

Bubble Ghost
16-02-2011, 12:13
But again, so what? It's your turn. Disembark into cover. Hide behind your bloody great flying tank. Shoot the units that are going to threaten the disembarked unit.

Anyway, I would be really depressed to see wave serpents become just another magic assault teleporter. What's the point of being a Dark Eldar with your ridiculous hover-yacht if the Craftworld Eldar can achieve the same results from the safety of a forcefield protected tank? What's the point of being a Space Marine if everyone disembarking from a transport is just as resilient as you are? I think you're asking too much here. Power armour envy.:p

Something else I think would suit the Eldar is an exception to the dismbarking rules allowing them to disembark at any speed (maybe an upgrade, "Inertial Suppressors" or some such technononsense). Another way to evoke mobility without resorting to raaaaargh-psycho-melee army.

Shamana
16-02-2011, 12:19
Not really, IMO, the grenades aren't there to force the opponent to duck, they give the first strike because they're causing damage before the assaulting unit actually hits and count as part of their attacks - other weapon effects could be considered coup de graces (and I don't really like the mechanic, give me grenades I can actually throw and do real damage with :)).

Sorry, man - in 40k, that is just how assault grenades work. Read page 36 of the rulebook and enjoy the logic at work. Here's a quote: "Assault grenades... can be thrown at an opponent in order to force them to keep their heads down during an assault. The lethal storm of shrapnel... will drive opponents further under cover for a few precious moments, allowing attackers more time to close in. " Anything that facilitates an assault by disorienting the defenders would thus count as assault grenades.

Frimbleglim
16-02-2011, 12:49
@Sai-Lauren
Those effects will generaly actualy be smaller than a straight -1 to hit. If that isnt' powerful enough then make it -2 to hit. Those are huge differences, really. Being hit on 6s is like getting a 2+ invulnerable save rather than a 4+ armour save and 5+ invulnerable save.
It's that good.

Negating special rules actualy requires the enemy to have a special rule in the first place and even then generaly won't be as good.

Ed. Negating all attacks would be completely broken: Hah, your blood thirster, blood letter and korne bezerker army doesn't scare me!
Enemy hitting themselves on a roll of 1... Could do... Sounds aikido themed... again doing that to a blood thirster sounds a bit far fetched.


On the original topic how about allowing squads of aspect warriors to be mounted in viper squadrons (as dedicated transports) at the expence of taking the turret off the viper. Vipers are open topped so you could assault after disembarking. You could shoot dark reapers and so on while on the move too. Further as it would take several vipers to carry a squad (you might let 2 warriors on each) the loss of one viper would not be catastrophic.

Personaly I would love to play an army like that... and it seems like the sort of thing the eldar would do anyway. In fact why don't they? It would make perfect sense.

It would make GW money too so they might actually be happy to put this sort of thing in (not that I expect them to read this or pay me any attention but still).

Sai-Lauren
16-02-2011, 13:30
What am I, this weeks chosen target? :D



But again, so what? It's your turn. Disembark into cover. Hide behind your bloody great flying tank. Shoot the units that are going to threaten the disembarked unit.

Anyway, I would be really depressed to see wave serpents become just another magic assault teleporter. What's the point of being a Dark Eldar with your ridiculous hover-yacht if the Craftworld Eldar can achieve the same results from the safety of a forcefield protected tank? What's the point of being a Space Marine if everyone disembarking from a transport is just as resilient as you are? I think you're asking too much here. Power armour envy.

Something else I think would suit the Eldar is an exception to the dismbarking rules allowing them to disembark at any speed (maybe an upgrade, "Inertial Suppressors" or some such technononsense). Another way to evoke mobility without resorting to raaaaargh-psycho-melee army.

Dark Eldar get that with the downside of fragility to offset the low cost, and it's suitable for nearly all their army depending on the loadout you give Warrior units. This would be an additional option on top of the cost of an already fairly expensive vehicle. It could even be restricted to a small number per army, rather than freely available and the units that I see benefitting most from it are Storm Guardians and Banshees, both of which have to get into melee to be worth taking (as do Scorpions, but I see them more as infiltrators and ambushers). Dragons, Avengers, Guardians and Wraithguard you might want close, but not in melee except to kill the last few of a unit.

(Wonder if at this point it's worth a disclaimer that the two original aspects that I really, really, loved the look of, and still do, were the Hawks and Banshees ;)).

Marines, they have the extra range of Bolters, they have their armour, toughness, ATSKNF for loyalists and so on. They're also more multi-role than Eldar units could ever hope to be.

Sisters are similar, although a little less durable because of the lower toughness. But then there's Acts of Faith.

Orks and Dark Eldar primarily use open top vehicles (and Orks are tougher), Tyrannids don't really use the transport rules and Tau and Guard aren't that great in close, except for Stormtroopers (not really melee orientated so the lack of an assault move doesn't really affect them) and the Ogryn school bus, who also has the durability to stand around and wait a turn (and the fluff, it'll take a while and a lot of blows to the backs of heads to get the Ogryn out of the Chimera and pointing the right way).

Which leaves the Necrons - the Eldar's ancient enemy, risen again from the dust! - and such a tactic would work pretty well against them. It'd certainly be better than standing around waiting to be turned into free floating atoms by their Gauss weapons, and thus might be something that the Eldar strategists can up with all those millenia ago.

And there's also some (retconned) precedent for anti-Necron gear - Dathedi can be seen as an anti-Necron countermeasure. Their weapons can potentially punch through any armour and energy field, so the best way to survive is to mess up their targetting so they can't hit you in the first place.



Sorry, man - in 40k, that is just how assault grenades work. Read page 36 of the rulebook and enjoy the logic at work. Here's a quote: "Assault grenades... can be thrown at an opponent in order to force them to keep their heads down during an assault. The lethal storm of shrapnel... will drive opponents further under cover for a few precious moments, allowing attackers more time to close in. " Anything that facilitates an assault by disorienting the defenders would thus count as assault grenades.

Which only shows that the design studio don't really have a clue. :)

Maybe if they were flash-bangs, then yes, that would be the way they would work. But you don't throw fragmentation grenades to make people duck, you throw them to kill people, whilst that shrapnels not to distract, it's mean to cause terminal injuries.

Although the concussion would disorientate the survivors, making them easier to pick off (but I'm sure most forces that train would use suitable charges to replicate the effects) - so it's really more a combination of the two. :D

But still not to the scale of trying to reform a unit after barely avoiding being knocked down.

If you really want to make people duck, then add a supressive fire rule - could be that's a better way to go in this case, give it to Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannon to support the other units.

Bubble Ghost
16-02-2011, 13:40
Dark Eldar ... first place.

Just bear in mind that all of this assumes no changes anywhere else. It's no good dismissing a single change on the grounds that it wouldn't have the desired effect if it were just dropped into the current army list on its own. I've been talking about a direction for the army as a whole to be built around.

Frimbleglim
16-02-2011, 14:58
What am I, this weeks chosen target? :D

Don't worry, it happens to everyone sooner or later. :)
Remember that if people agree then most forums' rules dont' let them say so unless they have something else to contribute.

I agree with you about the grenades for example as I am sure do a lot of people but we can't post just to say so.

Dead7
16-02-2011, 15:44
And there's also some (retconned) precedent for anti-Necron gear...

imo it wouldnt make much since. i think the necron have been gone long enough that any anti-necron gear left would probably be very hard to find, let alone in quantities suitable for anyone but a hero to have one.

Frimbleglim
16-02-2011, 15:53
imo it wouldnt make much since. i think the necron have been gone long enough that any anti-necron gear left would probably be very hard to find, let alone in quantities suitable for anyone but a hero to have one.

Well there are the talismans of vaul. You don't get anti necron gear much better than that. Just a shame Chaos stole them.

So far as the army goes I think the eldar should be able to invent something suitable. They are not the inventers the Tau are but unlike the imperium they have not qualms or stigma about inventing new weapons.

On the other hand what could kill necrons better than the weapons the eldar already have? Essentialy you want stuff that allows necrons no armour save as that negates the we'll be back rolls. So that would be reaper launchers, star cannons, Fire prisms, fusion guns, laser lances... I don't see much room for improvement.

Dead7
16-02-2011, 16:02
retcon time:
they have those weaps because they are good against necrons :P

Sai-Lauren
16-02-2011, 16:27
Don't worry, it happens to everyone sooner or later.

Wasn't worried, just thought I'd comment that everyone else was, erm, helping to refine my ideas ;) - hence the smiley.



imo it wouldnt make much since. i think the necron have been gone long enough that any anti-necron gear left would probably be very hard to find, let alone in quantities suitable for anyone but a hero to have one.

How long did the Necron war last? But if Dathedi's still around, I doubt the rest's been abandoned - possibly mothballed against them coming back, but not lost.

Not to mention all the retconned anti-WBB weapons. :p

Anyway, I just had a thought based on the Dark Aspects thread in Background.

What about giving the Avatar the ability to generate "rage tokens", like the Dark Eldar have pain tokens? Say one per wound caused in melee, possibly giving bonuses to the Avatar himself, and anything above a certain number can go to units within a certain range (evenly distributed) to give effects, or generates 2/wound - 1 for him, one for a unit? The Avatar then loses theirs at the start of each Eldar turn (think of it as the cost of running him :)), and maybe the Eldar units do too, so you have to keep the Avatar in combat to keep the effects (and the enemy try and run away).

Maybe also give the ability in a lower form to the Phoenix Lords (say only to their aspect, but anywhere on the table) and possibly also the Autarch or as an Exarch shrine power at a lower level still, so that the Avatar's not a mandatory choice just to get the effect. And the Avatar would certainly have to have a points boost.

Frimbleglim
16-02-2011, 16:32
I like the idea but it wouldn't have to be as complicated as tokens. Just add some stuff to the inspiring presence ability so that it not only makes eldar fearless but also say gives them +1 attack and +1 BS or something... Ok +1 BS would be OP but you get the idea.

Dead7
16-02-2011, 16:45
i think furious charge + counter attack would make the most sense

Frimbleglim
16-02-2011, 17:10
That would work fine, yes. Especialy since it would favour a non mechanised assault army.

With regards to anti necron weapons I just remembered that the eldar fluff actually explicity says that there are some weapons the eldar invented to kill necrons.

First Vaul made 100 swords as a favor to Kain in exchange for the release of Isha and Kurnous (I think it was him anyway) from his dungion. Each of the swords contianed the spirit of an edar warrior that had died in battle against the necrons (these were the first Dire swords although the dire avenger aspect was not founded until several milenia afterwards). One of these swords contained no soul as a trick to spite Kain, (Vaul remade it later with a soul and used it to attack Kain). The eldar probably still have some of these swords left, they would have to be very forgetful to loose 99 swords even over thousands of years, that's not many generations for them after all.

Vaul aslo created the first wraith constructs (complete with D-cannon, not just wraith cannon but actual D-Cannon by the sound of it) to kill the necrons.

We certainly see wraith constructs in game. It kind of amuses me that in the 40k fluff the D-Cannon was the first ranged weapon the eldar ever used.

Dead7
16-02-2011, 17:16
we should get a seer hero who has a pet wraith construct. like a 2w warlock with all powers with a hero wraithlord. of corse the pet should not be humanoid like the current wraiths.

Squallish
16-02-2011, 17:20
we should get a seer hero who has a pet wraith construct. like a 2w warlock with all powers with a hero wraithlord. of corse the pet should not be humanoid like the current wraiths.

see: Iyanna and her Wraith King (name tbd) in Fandex (link in sig), so I definitely agree :)

theJ
16-02-2011, 20:38
Well... as I was reading through the many ideas about "assaulty vehicles" I got an idea so suddenly that it's most likely useless, but I'm gonna post it anyway cuz' that's kinda my thing!

Basically, Wave Serpents and Falcons are skimmers, yeah?
They're like, really really good skimmers, yeah?
The point of a skimmer is that they are flying/hovering, yeah?
Well, why don't we use that for our assault rules? Eldar don't run just run out of their transports like them filthy Mon-keigh would, they JUMP out of their transports, jump infantry style, to land on their opponents heads!

Rulewise, we'd have Wave Serpents and Falcons moving much like the Valkyrie, except rather than "deepstrike along path", we'd get "count as assaulting a unit along path" - possibly with a max speed to represent the fact that jumping out a transport moving at super-sonic speed is a pretty bad idea - which would ensure an Eldar army is still heavily dependant on well thought out movement. How defensive/assaulting bonuses, grenades, etc. would interact with this is up for debate.
It would give an "attack from transport" mechanic without making it as simple as opentopped transports or assault ramps - thus making it one way to handle your army rather than the defacto "this is how you do it".

Whatcha think? Is it just another of my many phail ideas or is there actually some credit to it?

Dead7
16-02-2011, 21:42
i love the idea, they could assault anything the transport moved directly over and get furious charge. it may sound a bit op, but im sure we could allways just wait untill all of the marines can do it first.

Inquisitor Kallus
16-02-2011, 22:18
Couldn't agree more. Personally, I think Seer Council type things should effectively become a new unit type, enablers rather than being so hard that you're tempted to use them as a death star.

For examle, you could keep their gear roughly as is, make them dirt cheap in points, then say they aren't allowed to charge, because Farseers are too valuable to risk in headlong assaults (so you effectively get all the unit's melee prowess almost for free). Then come up with some way for Warlocks within such units to project their buffs onto nearby friendly units instead of their own, combining their efforts to extend their powers' range (maybe they all have a second psychic power, which they cast on another model in the unit to add 12" to that model's own power's range).

So a Seer Council would do what it's actually supposed to, it could still look after itself if it got attacked, and you wouldn't be paying through a nose for a load of witch blades and invulnerable saves you weren't really using.

I say all this because using Farseer & Friends as a mega assault unit really bugs me, it's completely contrary to the background to have Farseers going haring around looking for a fight. A unit like that - a tough but passive enabler - could be present interesting tactical choices for both players, I reckon, if their psychic powers were designed right.

I'm not saying this is the ONE TRUE WAY of going about making seer council type units behave in an appropriate fashion, mind you, just demonstrating that it can be done.

Cool ideas, but what about giving them an advantage for staying still instead. This couners the 'you cant charge' , because, lets face it, if a Farseer and the unit of Warlocks he is with needs to charge to get the upper hand, hes going to. They should be a decent unit in combat, but an even more proficient psychic/support/leader unit.

I would probably take the option of allowing Farseers to ride Jetbikes away, it just doesnt seem to fit their background or battlefield role. Warlocks however, should have access to jetbikes. Jetbikes represent 'hariring around', and I dont think that would be conducive to concentrating on the skeins of fate and the ebb and flow of battle. Warlocks on the other hand are the path of the seer 'aspect', they should have a reason to be in the thick of it, or, as a bodyguard to a Farseer who can help him 'focus' more?

What do you guys think?

Frimbleglim
16-02-2011, 22:43
Well... as I was reading through the many ideas about "assaulty vehicles" I got an idea so suddenly that it's most likely useless, but I'm gonna post it anyway cuz' that's kinda my thing!

Basically, Wave Serpents and Falcons are skimmers, yeah?
They're like, really really good skimmers, yeah?
The point of a skimmer is that they are flying/hovering, yeah?
Well, why don't we use that for our assault rules? Eldar don't run just run out of their transports like them filthy Mon-keigh would, they JUMP out of their transports, jump infantry style, to land on their opponents heads!

Rulewise, we'd have Wave Serpents and Falcons moving much like the Valkyrie, except rather than "deepstrike along path", we'd get "count as assaulting a unit along path" - possibly with a max speed to represent the fact that jumping out a transport moving at super-sonic speed is a pretty bad idea - which would ensure an Eldar army is still heavily dependant on well thought out movement. How defensive/assaulting bonuses, grenades, etc. would interact with this is up for debate.
It would give an "attack from transport" mechanic without making it as simple as opentopped transports or assault ramps - thus making it one way to handle your army rather than the defacto "this is how you do it".

Whatcha think? Is it just another of my many phail ideas or is there actually some credit to it?

There is a huge amount of credit to this. This is exactly what happens in an old short story about the eldar. The howling banshee's literaly sumersault out of their moving wave serpents to land in combat with the enemy below. So soon as I read the story I wanted to make an army like that and I quickly found it didn't work in game because you could only assault from a vehicule that hadnt' moved.

I have already said I would like an option that allowed models to assault from moving vehicles and this would be an ideal way of letting them do that.

I'll see if I can find the short story. You would probably like it. I'll PM it to you if I find it.

PS. I don't think the scorpians would do this though. Their armour does not allow for acrobatics. Some other rule for them I think. Keep the sumersaulting assault for banshees and harlequins (obviously) make warlocks more magic based (without decreasing their stats or equipment, just make them more expensive) Storm guardians should probably be a more flexible unit and get more options rather than this rule.

Zaonite
17-02-2011, 00:04
Love the assaulting from transport idea. Just brilliant!

All I can say for scorpions is... give them fleet and the Tau Stealth Suit spotting rule :D It may just be the night fight special rule but I can't remember off the top of my head.

WickedWraith
17-02-2011, 00:56
Hmm... maybe an exodite squad or two, something to throw a bit more fantasy into the Eldar.

Kresterz
17-02-2011, 03:15
Love the assaulting from transport idea. Just brilliant!

.

That is seriously WTF I was talking about when I said assualt ramps :(

NObody listens to me :(

Hendarion
17-02-2011, 05:20
Well, Kresterz, the thread has went quite a bit off the original topic anyway and it rather turned yet again into "how you wanna fix Eldar", where so many ideas are thrown in, that nobody can fully track them.
That was not my intention on creating this topic anyway.

Dr.Clock
17-02-2011, 06:34
A loooooong time ago I drafted an elite unit in order to represent my old 2nd ed. guardian models on the table.

I was planning on doing a pirate army, but NOT Dark Eldar... just random pirate allies in the CWE list.

I came up with this (obviously a bit too close to wyches now):

corsair 5 5 3 3 1 6 2 9 5+/5++
Captain 6 6 3 3 1 7 2 9 5+/4++

110 points

pirate captain and 4 corsairs

may include up to 7 additional corsairs at 18 points apiece

Shuriken Catapults
plasma and haywire grenades
dirty tricks: poison (4+ in CC)
canny opponents - (5++ invulnerable)
taciturn - inclusion limits other elite choices to 0-1 combined

may carry up to two flamers (+10) melta (+12)

may carry up to two power-fist (+14), power-weapon (+14)

Captain takes either power-fist, power-weapon


Pirate Admiral: 130 points
shuriken pistol, plasma grenades
must take one Badge of Rank, represented by either executioner, power-blades(+2 A), firepike, digital weapons (power-weapon, re-roll all to-hits) or agonizer

may take:
melta-gun, star-blaster (S6 AP2, 12" assault 2), flamer - +10

power-weapon - +10

6 6 3 3 3 7 3 9 3+/3++

So basically, they limit the availability of elite aspects but give you a multi-purpose assault unit. They have alot of skill, but are lightly armoured. Obviously, these are the elite corsairs... but I figure most corsair 'troops' would be close enough to guardians that you'd just take them - jetbikes included. This entry also works for Black Guardians to a degree.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Sai-Lauren
17-02-2011, 08:11
That would work fine, yes. Especialy since it would favour a non mechanised assault army.

Damn, I was expecting to be shouted at for it. :D

Although I was thinking things like Furious Charge or Feel No Pain for effects rather than modifiers.



With regards to anti necron weapons I just remembered that the eldar fluff actually explicity says that there are some weapons the eldar invented to kill necrons.

First Vaul made 100 swords as a favor to Kain in exchange for the release of Isha and Kurnous (I think it was him anyway) from his dungion. Each of the swords contianed the spirit of an edar warrior that had died in battle against the necrons (these were the first Dire swords although the dire avenger aspect was not founded until several milenia afterwards). One of these swords contained no soul as a trick to spite Kain, (Vaul remade it later with a soul and used it to attack Kain). The eldar probably still have some of these swords left, they would have to be very forgetful to loose 99 swords even over thousands of years, that's not many generations for them after all.

Aren't they the Blackstone Fortresses?



That is seriously WTF I was talking about when I said assualt ramps

NObody listens to me

Or me, the overfly assault sounds almost exactly like the tank shock assault I've been proposing.

Aluinn
17-02-2011, 10:31
Because the likelihood of seeing a dedicated Exodite codex in the foreseeable future is rather slim, I'm hoping to see them included in the next CE book. They do after all have more in common, philosophically and culturally, than either has with DE, as well as the traditional connection via craftworld outcasts (Rangers and Pathfinders).

Just a couple of units would do fine: I'd like to see one ranged unit on foot, representing the ordinary Exodite hunter in some way (though they could be represented by Rangers, too), along with maybe a sniper character a bit like the Vindicare, and of course Dragon Knights. That would pretty much open up the possibility of a full Exodite army, with War Walkers being included as Heavy Support and a Farseer counting as an Exodite psyker.

2-3 new units allowing almost an entire new army to be built seems like a great deal to me :).

EDIT: Something like Dr. Clock's Corsair idea would also be great, for the same reason.

theJ
17-02-2011, 10:45
Or me, the overfly assault sounds almost exactly like the tank shock assault I've been proposing.



It's not quite either. It's not the tank-shock thingy because you don't tank-shock the enemy you want to attack - you merely fly over them. A little safer, not quite as effective, and a fair bit less brutal.
It's not the assault ramps because you don't disembark normally - hence you don't get to run or shoot and with the speed limit, it's also a fair bit harder to get the assault off properly - which also makes it less "cheap" than assault ramps.

Think less of the "assault from vehicle" part and more of how the actual manouvre takes place :)

Either of the ideas could be made to work, and all of them would make eldar assaults (especially banshees) more effective.

I'd also like to point out that I really don't want the Scorpions to get to do this. The Scorpions are supposed to be an aspect of stealth, not an aspect of dropping from the sky. I'd be happy with scorpions having stealth, infiltrate, possibly scouts, and a bonus when assaulting from cover (limited furious charge?)

Frimbleglim
17-02-2011, 10:53
@Sai-Lauren: No, the fluff definately says they were humanoid shaped. It describes some of them as twice as high as a necron (the old necrons were bigger) and others much larger (if I remember corectly). They were fighting on the ground alongside normal eldar.

It describes them as shooting soulfire from their weapons. That sounds like D-Cannons to me but it could be anything.

Webba
17-02-2011, 11:38
It's not quite either. It's not the tank-shock thingy because you don't tank-shock the enemy you want to attack - you merely fly over them. A little safer, not quite as effective, and a fair bit less brutal.
It's not the assault ramps because you don't disembark normally - hence you don't get to run or shoot and with the speed limit, it's also a fair bit harder to get the assault off properly - which also makes it less "cheap" than assault ramps.

Think less of the "assault from vehicle" part and more of how the actual manouvre takes place :)

Either of the ideas could be made to work, and all of them would make eldar assaults (especially banshees) more effective.

I'd also like to point out that I really don't want the Scorpions to get to do this. The Scorpions are supposed to be an aspect of stealth, not an aspect of dropping from the sky. I'd be happy with scorpions having stealth, infiltrate, possibly scouts, and a bonus when assaulting from cover (limited furious charge?)

Just make it a banshee exarch special ability. Problem solved.

Frimbleglim
17-02-2011, 11:51
Just make it a banshee exarch special ability. Problem solved.

Could do, but I think harlequins should get it too. After all they are wearing portable antigrav devices so they should be even better at it.

The_Lemon
17-02-2011, 12:01
I think some kind of beasts will be nice to have in the new codex. After all most of 40k seems to be based on the "Rule of Cool". So what could be more cool than Space elves shooting laser beams while riding on top of a dinosaur!?
Something around ws4 bs4 S4 T4(5) W3 I5 A3 Sv 3+
With maybe energy weapons first round of assault, furious charge, and a powered down version of the scatter laser (S5 AP- Assault 3 36'') or the prism (S6 Ap 3 Assault 1, Blast 48'').
I have no idea how much sthey should cost, but around 45-60 points, definitely more than wraithguard.

Hendarion
17-02-2011, 13:32
45-60 points for W3 and T5, 3+? More like 80 imo.

LususNaturae
17-02-2011, 14:01
45-60 points for W3 and T5, 3+? More like 80 imo.

SM attack bikers are T4(5) and W2, they're less than 60. You think 1 W and 1 A is worth 30 points?

Shamana
17-02-2011, 14:22
@ Kresterz: I've been calling for assault ramps for a while now - apparently it's ok for SMs to have fast heavy skimmers, but no, the LR must be the only "transport" with assault ramps. :eyebrows:


PS. I don't think the scorpians would do this though. Their armour does not allow for acrobatics. Some other rule for them I think. Keep the sumersaulting assault for banshees and harlequins (obviously) make warlocks more magic based (without decreasing their stats or equipment, just make them more expensive) Storm guardians should probably be a more flexible unit and get more options rather than this rule.

We don't actually know just what the scorpion armor allows or does not allow for. They are eldar, and apart from the exarch abilities they are no less agile (as in, have the same initiative) as banshees. We also know their armor is flexible enough so they can sneak around ninja-like and hide for an ambush. We don't, afaik, know of any particularly acrobatic stuff they pulled from a moving vehicle, but neither do we know that they can't do it. A simple way to assault out of a (moving) vehicle could work.

Still, I think an open-topped transport might be a less problematic way to do this. What about simply having an open-topped version of the Serpent with slightly less armor such as 12/11/10 (heavily armored prow, but less from the sides and the top)? It could be a easier-to-produce variant used for ground operations instead of a all-environment-compatible craft like the current serpent is. It could also be given to the harlies as a dedicated transport now the Venom is DE-ified - let's say it's an assault barge the troupes use for transport, performance and war (they kinda blur the lines between the last two anyway).

@ Hendarion: The DE Grotesques have T5, 3 wounds and while they only have 6+, they have FnP from the pain token they start with, and cost 35 points. I personally don't find them all that OP - so what do you think we could have for a model that costs, say, 20 points more? I'd say higher initiative, leadership, and armor is acceptable.

Frimbleglim
17-02-2011, 14:39
@ Kresterz: I've been calling for assault ramps for a while now - apparently it's ok for SMs to have fast heavy skimmers, but no, the LR must be the only "transport" with assault ramps. :eyebrows:

We don't actually know just what the scorpion armor allows or does not allow for. They are eldar, and apart from the exarch abilities they are no less agile (as in, have the same initiative) as banshees. We also know their armor is flexible enough so they can sneak around ninja-like and hide for an ambush. We don't, afaik, know of any particularly acrobatic stuff they pulled from a moving vehicle, but neither do we know that they can't do it. A simple way to assault out of a (moving) vehicle could work.


Actualy there is already an imperial armour flyer with an assault ramp. It also has a ram and flame template melta weapons apparently. Talk about broken...

From the path of the warrior it is clear that scorpian armour does not allow for acrobatics. The movements used in the scorpian martial art seem strange and stylised as it does not make use of the eldar skeleton's natural flexibility. Once they put on the armour it all makes sense as the armour's design limits some limb movements. The way of the Scorpian is one of ballance not acrobatics (this is clearly stated by the exarch in the story). They also train in rooms with low celings so that they learn to fight without jumping or lifting their swords high.

webba84
17-02-2011, 15:16
Could do, but I think harlequins should get it too. After all they are wearing portable antigrav devices so they should be even better at it.

Could also be made a property of the flip belts. If you're going to have a situation where you want some units to be able to assault from transports but not others then it makes more sense to just give the units the abilities, rather than give the transport the ability, then give another 'negative' ability to all the units who can't make use of it.

Inquisitor Kallus
17-02-2011, 15:17
I would like to see new aspects such as the slicing orbs and others that have been mentioned in the background. I would also like to see Guardian support weapon 'batteries' so that you can play a more viable all Guardian army if you so choose. Bonesingers, Scorpion Phoenix Lord, Wraith 'characters' and the like are all cool too. I would really like to see a slightly lower level character than an Avatar or Farseer that is not a special Character, like a higher level warlock (Warlock Disciple) .

theJ
17-02-2011, 16:27
Speaking of Warlocks, another of my trademark possibly awesome but more likely completely useless ideas come to mind.

Wait, scratch that, I think it's been touched upon already, so it's not really "my" idea.

Basically, I wanna split up the psykers a bit, currently we've got Warlocks who're your average "warrior mage" type and we've got Farseers who're your average "crazy good at everything" type.

The way I wanna put it up is with three distinct types: The 'Farseer', the 'Warlock' and the 'Seer'

Starting off with the 'Seer', the Seer is a non-combatant (guardian stats + 1W, no special weapons) who works much like the current Warlock does - you add them to squads to grant psychic buffs (mostly defensive), most notably the guardian squads and the wraith constructs.

Secondly, the Warlock is a seer who was previously an Aspect Warrior - just as the current fluff says he is. With the 'common seer' taking over the job of buffing, the Warlocks are free to pursue their original purpose - as an offensive warrior-mage. Warlocks carry exclusively offensive spells and enough stats and gear to match or even outmatch aspects. Their role is to grant extra 'oomph' and/or plug weaknesses in aspect squads, or, depending on what options you choose, can even go character huntin'. Not entirely sure if they should be Elite or HQ - most likely HQ, but in that case they'll be either "X per slot" or "0-X, does not take up slots".

Lastly, the Farseers have their offensive role taken over by the Warlocks and instead focus on what their fluff dictates that they do - great psychic feats that twists fate itself and alters the outcome of entire battles. The Farseers come equipped with large-scale abilities, although few of them have "direct" effects. Typical tricks would include 'reinforcement chenanigans', teleporting squads (friendly, that is), locking down enemy psykers (and possibly non-psykers), disallowing running for every model on the table for a round, "illusionary abilities"(not entirely sure how they would work myself tbh).... list goes on. Can take bodyguards, but is not the kind of character you'd ever want to put close to the fray (cuz they'd gain nothing from it, and, like the 'common seer', they are non-combatants).

Just a short draft, keep in mind that I'm mostly trying to get the "idea" and "feel" across, not the exact rules.

good? bad? OMG-never-post-again?

Frimbleglim
17-02-2011, 17:24
Sounds good but I think it should still be the warlock that lead guardian squads. Seers should accompany the farseer not as a body guard but as advisers.

@webba84: I agree, that would be the way to do it.

Kresterz
17-02-2011, 18:22
So, can we add a new walker :)

I left one here before

But here is a new walker idea

We could use those vibro cannons and mount them on walkers for more mobile tank stopper

it may be opened top and follows the same stat line as a war walker
We could also use different items that we could make up?
Such as thosegravity guns from my previous walker idea here :)

theJ
17-02-2011, 19:27
@Frimbleglim:
One of the main reasons I want the distinctions is to get Warlock back into the "mega killy" category they were in back in the early editions. If we put Warlocks as upgrades to Guardian squads, I fear they will be forced back into a "buffer" role.
The "common seer" is there to allow the Eldar a buffy unit after the Warlocks have moved on - hence they'd fit in well with the Guardians (who need buffs far more than they need a killer).
Using my distinction, you'd still be able to put a Warlock in a Guardian squad, you just wouldn't have the same need (or indeed advantage) to do so.

I do agree the Farseer would be better off with "advisors" than with "bodyguards", though. I'm not sure how it'd work out ruleswise, but I like the idea of a coven of powerful seers directing the battle from the sidelines.

EDIT:
Also, que a plastic seer kit with enough bits to represent common seers, farseers and warlocks with several different weapon and head options. Probably with a male and a female chestpiece, too :)

Hendarion
17-02-2011, 20:05
SM attack bikers are T4(5) and W2, they're less than 60. You think 1 W and 1 A is worth 30 points?
SM attach bikers do not have power weapons at 2A base. That alone is about 15 points worth. Add another wound and yes, I think that is pretty much what it would cost. Not to mention furious charge (S5 power weapon with 2A base...) and Scatter Laser on top of that. Surely not a model of only about 45-60 points.


@ Hendarion: The DE Grotesques have T5, 3 wounds and while they only have 6+, they have FnP from the pain token they start with, and cost 35 points. I personally don't find them all that OP - so what do you think we could have for a model that costs, say, 20 points more? I'd say higher initiative, leadership, and armor is acceptable.
Still FnP is not 3+ armour. Neither do they have power weapons or furious charge.
Grotesques also have a BS of 1 and no Scatter Laser.
The negative Berserk-Rampage rule can be pretty devastating to the unit AND your own too, so lowers the costs of Grotesques further.
You see, absolutely not comparable.

LususNaturae
17-02-2011, 20:29
SM attach bikers do not have power weapons at 2A base. That alone is about 15 points worth. Add another wound and yes, I think that is pretty much what it would cost. Not to mention furious charge (S5 power weapon with 2A base...) and Scatter Laser on top of that. Surely not a model of only about 45-60 points.



For 80 points you can have a TWC Cav with TH/SS. S8, 3+/3++, natural T5, 2W, beasts, counter-attack. I'll take that over what he proposed.

Note that I actually hate the unit in question, I think that it has no place in the Eldar codex. I'm just saying, if Space Marines get something like TWC, Eldar can have toys too.

Shamana
17-02-2011, 20:36
Still FnP is not 3+ armour. Neither do they have power weapons or furious charge.
Grotesques also have a BS of 1 and no Scatter Laser.
The negative Berserk-Rampage rule can be pretty devastating to the unit AND your own too, so lowers the costs of Grotesques further.
You see, absolutely not comparable.

I disagree. FnP means half of almost all wounds get removed. That stacks with any armor (pfft) but also cover saves. I'd say that all things included, at least for the stacking with cover, it may be around equal to 4+ armor. BS 1 is poor, but the only ranged weapon you can put on them is a template, so the BS means nothing. Berserk-rampage only means that you need to put an IC with them. Luckily, the DE have a 50-point, three-for-one-HQ slot HQ that removes their problem, is about as thematic as they go, and gives them another pain point - the haemy.

A model cost of 55 points is over 50% higher of what the grotesques cost. Should that be worth the likes of 3+ armor, not needing babysitting, and some heavier ranged power? Yeah, I think so. 50 points is imo ok for coming with a shuriken cannon, and 10 more points for a scatter laser sound more or less decent. Apart from that, I think that wraithguard can, at around their current cost, be a T5 W2 model with a 18-inch gun, or equally good melee configuration.

Regarding seers:

I have previously expressed my annoyance that the Farseer is the ONLY HQ, save for one Tau (!) Ethereal (!) special character with one base attack. "But he's a seer," you may say - and so are quite a few other HQs that doesn't stop. 40k runs on cool and asskicking, and with all due respect, the eldar aren't immune to that. The game pretty much presupposes that the guys in charge are tougher and meaner than even the elite mooks - so an IG general will be a better fighter than someone who spent their adult life knifing people in the ditches, an ethereal will be a better warrior than most fire castes (the strongest and most aggressive of the tau), etc. Pretty much any HQ choice has 2+ base attacks, really. I'd like to see the farseer and warlocks come to that level, and if we need to pay 5-10 more points for being able to attack as many times as an IG HQ psyker, yeah, I guess I'll live with that.

Something related to that: "Farseer" is the title for any eldar who becomes obsessed with the witch path. I'd like to have optional "upgrades" for farseers depending on which branch of the seer path they travelled by before becoming lost. For example (and yes, these wouldn't be particularly cheap):

- warlock champion (+1 A, +1 WS) The greatest of warlocks, those whose dual love for the psyker's arts and the warrior's path doom them to become the most martial of farseers. Unrivaled among eldar for using their arts for strife and destruction, theirs are the power to incinerate body and soul, warp a titan's carapace into nothing and call out to their kin's fury into battle. (special powers: heavy-duty offensive stuff such as eldritch storm or an eldar version of the doom vortex/jaws/whatever - hey, this IS the race which weaponized the warp)

- venerable seers (+1 T, -1 I, prescience, possibly 3rd power/turn): the master diviners of the Eldar race, savants of runecasting. The most ancient of farseers, whose bodies have already began to succumb to the call of the Hall of Crystal Seers (the old farseers who have started to crystallize). Needed for some fate-bending powers such as fortune OR as the upgrade needed to cast more powers/turn (if the GK codex rumors for 3-casting libbies are right and Eldrad is gone, these might be the guys able to cast 3 powers.)

- grand bonesinger: (+1 to save, can reinforce cover before battle/fix nearby vehicles): the most adroit and venerable of the enigmatic bonesingers, these psykers's call can materialize wraithbone even in the heat of battle. Where they walk, trees become spined clusters of death and ruined buildings become eldritch forts (special powers may include improve armor saves of nearby unit, create zones of enhanced cover or difficult/dangerous terrain)

- master spiritseer: (improved benefit to wraithsight units) the prodigies in the eldar art of using wraithbone constructs, these masked seers are masters of bonding the two worlds in which their entombed kings live in. For the wraith-kin, they are the gateway to the world of their descendants, and with their subtle arts, they enhance their once-kin into a relentless, unstoppable wave (special powers may include bestowing regeneration on wraith-constructs, or reviving slain wraithguard)

The_Lemon
17-02-2011, 21:03
Well I thought about them while reading the thread, and several people before my post seemed to want exodites in the codex, so eldars riding dinosaurs could be the exodite's unit.
They have powered down scatter lasers, that actually are worse than heavy bolters, powered down prism seems quite effective though, maybe that could be an upgrade for 10 extra points? And 80 points for one of them seems like too much for me, after all a TWC costs that with a hammer and shield. Instead of energy weapons they could have rending poisoning weapons, I mean they are dinosaurs they "need" something else above furious charge.

Shamana
17-02-2011, 21:26
I can't say I really "get" exodite knights or whatever this is, though. I could imagine a unit akin to land-based shining spears, but the regular non-aspect troops may as well be represent as guardians, as those and possibly the avengers should imo represent the regular "armies" of the eldar. I think the guardian squad could use more special/heavy weapons anyway.

webba84
18-02-2011, 04:14
@Frimbleglim:
One of the main reasons I want the distinctions is to get Warlock back into the "mega killy" category they were in back in the early editions. If we put Warlocks as upgrades to Guardian squads, I fear they will be forced back into a "buffer" role.
The "common seer" is there to allow the Eldar a buffy unit after the Warlocks have moved on - hence they'd fit in well with the Guardians (who need buffs far more than they need a killer).
Using my distinction, you'd still be able to put a Warlock in a Guardian squad, you just wouldn't have the same need (or indeed advantage) to do so.


At one point I had an idea for an aspect that represented Khaine as a Leader which, instead of being purchased as a unit, would be an upgrade for guardians and their special abilities and wargear would be based on protecting and improving squad abilities. Having this unit would also free up Warlocks to be kickass warrior mages as well.

I mean the only reason we have warlocks as squad leaders is because of convention. For me the fluff makes a lot more sense for the aspects to be concerned with things like guardians doing their job well, they are the military guys after all. Of course it doesn't make sense for all the aspects to care about those things but if there was an aspect that was primarily concerned with leadership and command then it would. This would also be able to do away with that annoying path of command rubbish that was introduced in 4th.

Hendarion
18-02-2011, 04:55
Note that I actually hate the unit in question, I think that it has no place in the Eldar codex. I'm just saying, if Space Marines get something like TWC, Eldar can have toys too.
You are forgetting the most important thing here:
The mightly Eldar-cost-more-but-do-less-factor. Do not underestimate its power ;)

Nocculum
18-02-2011, 06:49
You're basing that on an army book which is five years older than the units you're comparing it to, when we're given a new edition, I'm not sure we'll be so inflexible and expensive...:shifty:.

Hendarion
18-02-2011, 08:40
Hope dies last.

Frimbleglim
18-02-2011, 10:15
@Frimbleglim:
One of the main reasons I want the distinctions is to get Warlock back into the "mega killy" category they were in back in the early editions. If we put Warlocks as upgrades to Guardian squads, I fear they will be forced back into a "buffer" role.
The "common seer" is there to allow the Eldar a buffy unit after the Warlocks have moved on - hence they'd fit in well with the Guardians (who need buffs far more than they need a killer).
Using my distinction, you'd still be able to put a Warlock in a Guardian squad, you just wouldn't have the same need (or indeed advantage) to do so.

I do agree the Farseer would be better off with "advisors" than with "bodyguards", though. I'm not sure how it'd work out ruleswise, but I like the idea of a coven of powerful seers directing the battle from the sidelines.

EDIT:
Also, que a plastic seer kit with enough bits to represent common seers, farseers and warlocks with several different weapon and head options. Probably with a male and a female chestpiece, too :)
Warlocks leading guardian squads is too deeply embeded into the fluff to be removed. It has to be warlocks leading the guardians. You could make them more combat oriented and give them all embolden (or something) instead of a choice of powers but is has to be warlocks.

Poseidal
18-02-2011, 10:22
It's not really embedded with the fluff, but would require massive changes to remove them from Guardians ruleswise and will (possibly) overtip some Aspect Warriors if they were given freely.

Remove them and you will have to give Guardians:

(1) Something else to compensate beyond their basic weaponry and equipment they currently have
(2) Justification on why the Guardians have them and Aspects (or some paricular Aspects) don't.

webba84
18-02-2011, 14:52
It's not really embedded with the fluff, but would require massive changes to remove them from Guardians ruleswise and will (possibly) overtip some Aspect Warriors if they were given freely.

Remove them and you will have to give Guardians:

(1) Something else to compensate beyond their basic weaponry and equipment they currently have
(2) Justification on why the Guardians have them and Aspects (or some paricular Aspects) don't.

Did I not just suggest a possible design decision that would achieve exactly this? :angel:

Poseidal
18-02-2011, 15:00
It would be a bit odd that the Aspect Warrior would have powers that the warlock had before though.

Actually, maybe it's worth getting rid of those 'buff' abilities (or have it only apply to themselves albeit in a greater way) and relegate Guardians to manning heavy weapon platforms or using support special weapons only.

webba84
18-02-2011, 15:04
Why would they need to be exactly the same powers? There are plenty of things a 'leader' style aspect could offer to guardians without simply copying 3rd -5th edition warlocks. After all, if Warlocks can undergo the sort of fluff change they suffered from 2nd to 3rd then they could quite easily do it again.

theJ
18-02-2011, 18:21
I'd picture Guardians working better with long-range weaponry. It'd make them work better alongside the support platforms they already use. It always feels weird that we're 'forced' to equip them with long range heavy weapons yet their own weapons require them to run up their enemies faces to get any shots off.
Something along the lines of 36" S4 AP5 Heavy/Assault1. This statline would give them the same strength as a bolter or shuriken catapult but greatly increases the range at the cost of shots and possibly mobility (if we use Heavy). They probably wouldn't remain Shuriken Catapults though...
This would put Guardians at a comfortable range from their enemies. Combine it with the 'seers' I mentioned earlier and you get a squad that can throw up psychic 'shields'(small invulnerable save?), increase cover saves (shroud?) and possibly hitting power as well (guide style).
From a Fluff PoV it would make a lot of sense, as it puts the squishy but valuable little eldars in a (comparably) safe location while at the same time making the Guardian the support troops they're supposed to be. It's the Aspects who will be making the big blows with the special equipment and superior training while you can place one or two Guardian squads safely back in your own deployment zone and have them give covering fire to the "big killers" out on the field.

Yes, this is indeed one of my trademark "possibly awesome but more likely completely useless" ideas :)

Col. Tartleton
18-02-2011, 19:50
Okay where to begin...

Phoenix Lords make their aspect a troops choice.
Various Exarchs are Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support with several choices in weapons and upgrades. They can take up to five aspects warriors with them. All aspects will be modified to be more competitive.
Guardians will become roughly what Dire Avengers currently are with options for special or heavy weapons. Dire Avengers will get really good guns and drill options.
Warlocks will be Independent characters and a troop slot (doesnt count to minimum) and can fight together or dispersed through other units with Aspect Warrior stats a power weapon and powers which equate to various weapons.

Ideally Eldar don't test normally for psychic tests because of their warding and advanced training and their powers are either natural abilities or ranged weapons. I think that would be a nice "Eldar are the best psykers deal with it" ability. So a 'lock is able to use a heavy flames, a plasma gun, or double his power weapons strength or a combat shield save. That seems reasonable. That adds a real punch to any squad. Can't join Aspects but it's only fair.

Farseers would have stupidly good abilities like improving cover saves +1 across a big radius (fortune)
reducing enemy cover -1 within a large area (doom), redeploying a unit midgame as a teleport, forcing difficult terrain on vehicles and dangerous terrain for infantry and skimmers (eldritch storm), a s10 snipery type hit against Independent characters of choice or monstrous creatures (mind war) ect.

Lots of changes really.

Hendarion
18-02-2011, 20:03
OK, maybe we can return to the initial topic now?
It is *not* named "what do you want to fix in the next Eldar Codex", we had that topic too often already.

Ravariel
18-02-2011, 20:35
Well, when one proposes a batch of sweeping changes to a unit such that it only slightly resembles the unit who shares its name...

But I digress.

My votes are for:

Mid-range shooty aspect. We have 2 CC aspects (HB, SS), Three short/mid range (DA, WS, FD), one long range (DR), one h&r (SS), and one that doesn't know what it is (SH). Seems to me we need some more in the mid/long range. Perhaps make Hawk guns 30" and give us a tough-ish aspect with a strong, 24-30" gun but no CC ability or movement boosts (no need to step on toes)... perhaps make them a Troops choice, a step between the glass cannon that is the DA and the brick $#!+house that are the wraithguard.

New Wraith constructs: A CC wraithguard (call him Wraith Vanguard!) with 2 attacks and an ID-on-a-6 CCW (or better?) and Shimmershield. A Wraithlord-style HQ psycher would be pretty damn cool, too. Perhaps a wraith construct that counts as an MC, moves like a jetbike and can carry 6 dudes (open topped)... T5 so it's not busted, maybe 3 wounds tops, one gun, wraithsight so that I can roll a 1 first turn and watch my expensive toy die like nothing.

Different flavors of Warwalker would be cool... perhaps a mid-level version that's a bit more survivable, can take the bigger guns (pulse laser, D-cannon, etc) but only one? Av 12/11/10, no holocheese, and the ability to move D6 in the assault phase (not quite Tau JSJ shenaniganry, but able to protect itself a bit... no squadroning and costs 50 or 60 points base.

More SCs, perhaps one for each major craftworld. Shift Yriel to the corsair captain, let Aryanna (sp?) take over the Iyanden throne. Taldeer for Ulthwe. Macha for Biel-Tan. Retire Deadrad. Bring in some Saim-Hann and Alaitoc awesomeness and boost our psychers... perhaps make them unique... give them psychic powers not available to base-level farseers and warlocks.

I'd also like to see variability in the warlocks: make them distinct via whichever squad they accompany. Like give the warlock that babysits guardian defenders things like conceal, embolden (make this one stubborn and can regroup below 50%), and a weaker fortune (like only rerolls armor vs CC... for 5+ troops that shouldn't be too OP), where the warlock going with Storm Guardians would get Destructor, Enhance and a weaker version of Doom that only effected them during CC.

New Hulls in both the FA and Heavy slots. Vypers could be shunted to heavy jetbikes with 2 or 3 wounds a-la SMurph Attack Bikes to make way for Hornets and possibly an open-topped transport. Bring in the Deathspinner, Firestorm and Warp Hunter as HS variations on the Falcon Hull.

Also: something besides Phoenix Lords that can get 2+ armor. Don't care what. Without something other than fleet (which it seems everyone has) and fast skimmers (ditto) the whole speed uber alles thing is dead and we need something that can take a punch aside from falcons.

Shamana
18-02-2011, 21:55
Farseer (Macha) for the smurfing Swordwind? Can't agree there, man. Also, didn't Taldeer get kinda killed during the SM ending of Dark Crusade (which I believe was canon)? It's a pity, really, I enjoyed her smug banter.

BTW, what do people think about an open-topped (and with weaker side armor) version of the Serpent acting as our "light" transport? The Venom jetbike doesn't quite cut it imo, it suffers from low capacity, and as it is the eldar don't quite have a unit as killy as the incubi (I don't think harlies are quite as good) or with the long-distance punch of kabalite trueborns.

Ravariel
18-02-2011, 22:12
Eh, Macha and Taldeer I just put in because they're known names already in canon... we can certainly just make up some new ones :P

sgtspiff
17-03-2011, 15:19
Just realized that I would love to see a Harlequin Wraithlord... maybe as a character.

AlexHolker
17-03-2011, 16:58
Just realized that I would love to see a Harlequin Wraithlord... maybe as a character.
A Harlequin can't be put into a Wraithlord - Wraithlords use spirit stones, and Harlequins don't.

Designer891
17-03-2011, 16:58
Just realized that I would love to see a Harlequin Wraithlord... maybe as a character.

No thanks. I think Harlequins should never be put in wriathlords. They seem silly and especially not a special character. If anything do a solitaire or high warlock type if they do a character.

TheLaughingGod
17-03-2011, 17:01
A Harlequin can't be put into a Wraithlord - Wraithlords use spirit stones, and Harlequins don't.

And yet 2nd had Harlequin Wraithlords and 3rd Edition had the experimental rules with a Harlequin Wraithlord.

Perhaps you're missing something.

Sai-Lauren
17-03-2011, 17:07
I agree with the no - we'd get someone coming up with Solitaire Wraithlords (after all, we've now got Marine Librarian Dreadnoughts :rolleyes: ) and the whole thing would just collapse in a cloud of apathy.

Gwyidion
17-03-2011, 17:08
Fluff changes.

AlexHolker
17-03-2011, 17:20
And yet 2nd had Harlequin Wraithlords and 3rd Edition had the experimental rules with a Harlequin Wraithlord.

Perhaps you're missing something.
Do you disagree that the controlling spirit of a Wraithlord comes from the Infinity Circuit?

Do you disagree that a Harlequin's soul does not enter the Infinity Circuit?

If not, how does the Harlequin's soul come to be in control of the Wraithlord?

Poseidal
17-03-2011, 17:56
Would being a Wraithlord stop one from joining the Harlequins?

TheLaughingGod
17-03-2011, 18:19
Do you disagree that the controlling spirit of a Wraithlord comes from the Infinity Circuit?

Do you disagree that a Harlequin's soul does not enter the Infinity Circuit?

If not, how does the Harlequin's soul come to be in control of the Wraithlord?

I always like the idea that Wraithlords could join the Harlequins of their own accord. Or perhaps the Laughing God would simply tug on the limbs of the Wraithlord with invisible strings, like a puppeteer with a lifeless marionette.

Designer891
17-03-2011, 18:41
That a good Idea Laughing, but I think Wraithlords were only in that experimental codex because without them the army would fold way too easy. The only thing Harles would have in the Heavy department are T3 deathjesters.

Although I wish they would make deathjesters like how they were in that codex. Where you can buy a group and split them up and give them assault brightlances. As of now they have a great model but are a waste and drag down the squad as far as I can see it now, since you always want to fleet as much as possible.