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Hendarion
25-01-2011, 08:05
I don't wanna discuss here what tweaks the current Eldar units could get for their new Codex, but more about what (new) units you would like to see included for the next Eldar Codex.

Personally I believe that we can expect a Nightwing and/or Phoenix to be included in the Codex as the DE are kind of a precedence for it.

Interesting, but unlikely to happen could be Prism-Cannon and Pulse-Lasers on heavy weapon platforms.

As new units, I'd like some Jumppack-unit with two close combat blades or Wraithguard with a large dual-handed sword. Maybe something shooty with more than 18" range in case the current units won't get an upgrade, which is not very likely to happen.

Unlikely to be overtaken from FW to me seem the Shadow Spectres (I doubt GW could create satisfying plastic versions of 'em).

So what ideas, guessing or wishlisting do you have?

Tethylis
25-01-2011, 08:35
I can't really see us getting jump CC units but an assault vehicle or open topped (venom) transport would be nice. I also think something needs to be done with wraithguard to give them more viability, longer range, inv save or CC weapons would all be options. I'd really love to see some sort of character type wraithguard/lord, maybe the warp spider pheonix lord could be a wraith character. I hope the new FW stuff (with some tweeks) also make it into the new dex.

Chem-Dog
25-01-2011, 08:55
Wraithguard. More options and PLASTIC, I want a CC Wraithguard at least, it'd be cool if a Wraith construct could be an army's leader....a resurected Autarch.
Maybe even an entirely wraith aspect.
A Phoenix Lord for every Aspect, It bugs me that The Warp Spiders (personal favourite) don't have a Phoenix lord. I suppose the Shining spears should get one too....although his main power would have to be sucking harder than his Aspect does :D
MOAR Aspects.
As Flyers are the favour of the month it's about time we saw the Star Eagles, or what ever they're called. And not just an upgrade for the existing falcon/serpent kits.


Think that's it

Poseidal
25-01-2011, 09:06
More tank variants.

Basically, the Warp Hunter, Firstorm and a couple of others put in with updated rules *hint hint*.

What else? Maybe a few more special characters. I don't really see space for more units unless they go out of craftworld for more concepts e.g. Pirates, more Harlequin types; but those aren't really fitting for a typical Craftworld army.

Maybe Hero (character) Exarchs; not Autarchs but the original Menshad Korum concept.

Possibly a re-introduction of the Ghost Walker, the smaller cousin of the Wraithguard sneaking around in Stealthene.

Lothlanathorian
25-01-2011, 09:49
Eldrad not in the Codex. Because he is dead. And it would amuse me.

More Aspects and a couple Exarch upgrade characters would be pretty sweet.

A special character to replace Eldrad (iirc, he had some protege).

And, it has nothing to do with rules, but all the Aspects in plastic.

brightblade
25-01-2011, 10:01
How about a venom? For our harlies? OUR harlies.... ;) lol.

Lothlanathorian
25-01-2011, 10:07
Harleys for Harlies!!!

brightblade
25-01-2011, 10:08
Harleys for Harlies!!!

YES! THIS!

Ha ha ha!:D

shadow hunter
25-01-2011, 10:12
Expanding on the wraith units would be great. So you can make an almost necromantic army. WraithLord hero, Wraithguard C/C and shooty units. And maybe dead Exarchs put into specialist Wraith constructs (like a Striking scorpion exarch in a giant wraithscorpion construct etc.)

TheLaughingGod
25-01-2011, 10:21
Just throwing ideas out there, obviously if you put this all in it would be CRAZY broken.

Additional Wraith Constructs. Something between a Wraithlord and Wraithguard perhaps, or a Wraithprince HQ option?

Wraithbone bionics would be a cool touch.

Another aspect or two. Maybe one that focuses on defense?

Menshad Korum (High Exarch)

HQ Warlock type. After all, they lead them in battle more often than the rarer Farseers.

Pulse lasers on more platforms would be interesting.

I would also like a heavier war walker. Something that's more designed for assault than scouting, similar to what was done with the Sentinels or more of an exo-suit worn for devastating hand to hand.

Something akin to a Venom would be interesting, as would a Vyper variant that acts as a "Chariot" for characters to fight from.

Exodites and Pirates as fringe ally options would be very cool.

Solitaire and more fleshed out Harlequin choices (True Shadowseers, death jesters, etc)

Some sort of new tank variant in the weight class of the Lynx, but not necessarily the same hull.

a webway portal of some description would be very cool.

Everguard.

Hornets, Firestorm, Warp Hunter, Nightspinner.

I don't know if I want to see Nightwings in my codex, but a new Gunship design, half-way between a Phoenix and a Falcon would be really awesome.

I'd also like to see expanded Guardian units. Jump pack Guardians, Guardians Combat Engineers, this way you could play an Ulthwe force or craftworlds with similar militaries.

Jetbikes that can be upgraded to Wild Rider Hosts.

Characters: Nuada Fireheart, Ariana of Iyanden and her Wraithconstruct, a Biel-tan Autarch character, and a Ranger/Pathfinder character (Hoec?) redo Yriel as the Pirate Prince he's supposed to be and not an Autarch.

Some sort of actual artillery tank. None of this nightweaving or aether rifting nonsense. Big plasma missiles or melta missiles even!

Grynx!

Return of the ACTUAL Seer Council as a field-able unit.

marv335
25-01-2011, 10:29
Personally, I can't see any new aspects turning up,
Maybe a Bonesinger.
Venoms maybe, but not as dedicated transports.
Maybe more vehicles (Nightspinner is a sure thing I think) possibly a couple of flyers (with the aerial assault rule from the DE codex)
Most of the revamp, I suspect it'll be mainly resculpts and a few new models.
I'd like the Shuriken Catapult to go from 12" Assault 2 to Rapid fire, with the Avenger Catapult going to 24" Assault 2.
I'd like to see something done with Swooping Hawks, although I'm not sure what.
A higher rate of fire from the lasblasters maybe, or dropping grenade packs in the same manner as Ork Big Bomms (on deffcopters)
I don't think there is much else needed to be honest

MorningLightMountain
25-01-2011, 10:58
Wish list or stuff that's likely to happen? All Eldar t4 with 3+ saves :)

Seriously though I think my graetest wish is for Eldar to retain their play stile, everything should still have to work together, nothing should be a solo unit. Tougher CC units would be useful game-wise, but wouldn't really be in the spirit of the army.

Solitaire would be a popular choice. Allow Harlequins as troops maybe. Some kind of psychic hood effect too.

I personally think that the open-topped transports are such a signature Dark Eldar thing that it would be a shame for CW Eldar to get them too. Would take away from how special they are for DE if other armies started getting them.

New Jetbike models :/

Reflex
25-01-2011, 11:11
I wonder if guardians should get grenades or have the option to. I mean storm guardians would make good use of them.

I dont think the eldar need much. More special characters, mostly just a points jumble to make them stronger. so what would I like to see?

Just improvements on the codex and more aspect charaters... I mean, truely there is not much eldar need thats new, just a re balance.

Lothlanathorian
25-01-2011, 11:21
Menshad Korum (High Exarch)

HQ Warlock type. After all, they lead them in battle more often than the rarer Farseers.


While both of these would be awesome HQ's, I don't see it happening. The trend seems to be more towards having HQ's be high ranking army leaders than skirmish level leaders. Which, for 40K, makes no sense at all.

shin'keiro
25-01-2011, 12:27
Harlequin avatar (HQ unit)
Solitaire
Death Jesters as a seperate unit
Venom transport
Warp Spider Pheonix Lord

All Pheonix Lords having the ability to make their Aspect become a troops choice

Reflex
25-01-2011, 12:39
that could be deadly for Banshees or fire dragons.

Your fav marine killers are now troops.

Swooping hawk troops? hmm deep strike on objectives after sky leaping all game? hehe

Killgore
25-01-2011, 12:47
Some type of Healer character/ unit

Plastic Storm Guardian bits

More options for the Autarch

Splog
25-01-2011, 13:17
* An assault transport (a Craftworld venom?)

* More flexibility to include Aspects as Troops

* Close combat wraithguard (swap wraithcannon for a wraithglaive; re-rolls to hit as per a wraithsword, plus a testable ID ability as per a diresword/force weapon)

* Webway portal

* Bring the FW stuff into the codex

* A new CC aspect for taking on small numbers of tough critters, an Eldar take on TH/SS equipped Terminators. Rough idea follows:

- Aspect warrior stat-line, 4+ save
- Carrying a shield (and various techno-babble projectors and such) 3+ invulnerable save. A special ability that adds +1 to the cover save for any unit that these guys are screening (refer back to techno-babble, and their dancing-jumping-deflecting shots skill)
- Close combat weapon, +2 S power weapon (powerful, but they only have their base attacks and don't get a bonus attack from their shields) with a ID ability as per direswords
- Exarch weapon option 1: Aether Spear. Close combat weapon. Wounds on a 2+, ID on a natural roll of a 6. Ignores armour saves. Against vehicles glances on a 2-4, penetrates on a 5-6.
- Exarch weapon option 2: Moon spear. As per standard weapon for the aspect, but also ignores invulnerable saves.
- Exarch ability 1: Adds Furious Charge to the unit
- Exarch ability 2: Shield Wall. Units in combat with the unit do not get any bonuses from grenades
- Note there are no ranged attacks for the unit

Of course having the CC wraithguard unit mentioned above and this Aspect unit would be a little redundant. Also, there is some overlap with Warlocks... hmm.

* Being able to take a unit of warlocks without a farseer, and to have a squad leader that is an upgraded warlock (as per Exarchs, a warlock stuck on their path).

* Phoenix Lords for all Aspects

* Wraithlord variants

Lothlanathorian
25-01-2011, 13:21
I don't know how Warlocks work right now with unit selection, but they should be more like Wolf Guard. Each one can be kitted individually, they are purchased as one bulk unit, but can be assigned one each to different units.

Poseidal
25-01-2011, 13:29
I would prefer Warlocks like that too.

I think the problem in 3rd is their abilities were deemed to 'help' too much for them to join Aspect Warriors, even though it would be normal for them to do so (they need to get their Warlock mask from the Aspect Shrine, after all).

They were previously just 'characters' when the game was more WHFB like.

I don't know how I would balance it currently, without a large change to their powers and Guardians (who will need to be made to function without a Warlock).

Hendarion
25-01-2011, 13:35
- Aspect warrior stat-line, 4+ save
- Carrying a shield (and various techno-babble projectors and such) 3+ invulnerable save. A special ability that adds +1 to the cover save for any unit that these guys are screening (refer back to techno-babble, and their dancing-jumping-deflecting shots skill)
- Close combat weapon, +2 S power weapon (powerful, but they only have their base attacks and don't get a bonus attack from their shields) with a ID ability as per direswords

Big outch! But sounds really nice. I like the idea of +2 S and of a projector-shield. But a one-handed sword needs a really good explanation to give +2 S.
And boy, these units would be costy. Still should be less than Terminators, but won't happen.

Shamana
25-01-2011, 13:53
- More falcon variants (firestorm, warp hunter, etc)
- "light" transport, or a more modular serpent (optional energy fields, optional assault ramp as a front exit). Something like a venom would be good, especially if it has a transport capacity of 6+ models.
- 1-2 new aspects are nice, but not necessary
- Harlequin HQ if possible
- I'd like the option for warlocks and farseers to be A 2.
- storm/defender guardians rolled into one like ork boyz, possibly getting the heavy support weapons rolled in as well.
- nightwing-like flyer would be nice.
- Hornet or an equivalent skimmer making it to the codex as a slightly sturdier FA option(with vypers becoming something like attack bikes for the jetbikes or getting a fix)

Overall, though, I'd be fairly ok without new units were introduced as long as the old ones receive a decent overhaul, ideally keeping them elite (expensive, and worth it) rather than a point drop. I'd be very happy if vehicles could get BS 4 (innate or via cheap upgrade) and wargear to give them the option to move 12 and fire all guns a la DE. A lot of other tricks from various apocalypse formations (i.e. falcon capacitors charging the pulse laser to lances if they didn't fire last turn, improved energy field to reduce S to 7, FC for aspects around avatar, etc) can also be nice to have and make for a more distinct, memorable army.

BTW, I think a warlock/exarch HQ shouldn't be out of the question. SWs have wolf guard leaders as cheap HQ, after all - a warlock champion or something like that could serve as a decent HQ.

AlexHolker
25-01-2011, 13:58
Prism Relay: An alternate Weapons Platform for Guardian squads. Counts as a Fire Prism with a 24" range for linking, but does not increase the Strength or AP. Lets you fire around corners, at the expense of only being BS 3 (with the usual re-roll).

I'd also increase all Shuriken Catapults to 18" range, and give them plastic Seer Councils and three Aspect Warriors kits (Howling Banshees/Swooping Hawks: light armour and charging, Striking Scorpions/Fire Dragons: heavy armour and advancing, Warp Spiders/Dark Reapers heavy armour and standing & shooting).

Splog
25-01-2011, 14:20
Big outch! But sounds really nice. I like the idea of +2 S and of a projector-shield. But a one-handed sword needs a really good explanation to give +2 S.
And boy, these units would be costy. Still should be less than Terminators, but won't happen.

I forgot to mention that as imagined their CC weapon would be a large spear. Yes, I know this doesn't fully address your concern.

Geep
25-01-2011, 14:27
I'd say the Deathspinner is a definite- it'll be interesting to see what they do to the next version of its rules (and the other web weapons).
Firestorm is quite possible- it's a fairly simple adjustment to a Falcon.

Open topped transport vehicles would be nice, but I don't think we'll get them- too DE. I wouldn't rule out some vehicles gaining assault ramps (or similar) though. Webway portals could be good- equally applicable to Eldar and DE in background.

I really don't think Guardians needs much of a change. They're drafted from the general population- they shouldn't be that skilled IMO (another point seperating them from DE, where all warriors are basically elite in background). I also don't want to see their weapons become Rapid Fire- it's too common. Shuriken catapults becoming 18" range would be nice, but I won't worry if it doesn't happen. More platform weapon options would be nice- especially if it allowed for a theme (eg. another type of web weapon, to go with a Warp Spider focussed list).

Shamana
25-01-2011, 14:59
Open topped transport vehicles would be nice, but I don't think we'll get them- too DE. I wouldn't rule out some vehicles gaining assault ramps (or similar) though. Webway portals could be good- equally applicable to Eldar and DE in background.

Hmm, the harlequins at least have toys to out-DE the dark eldar. Besides, the SMs themselves have an open-topped light transport in the storm speeder. I'd be happy with a 65-ish point serpent (sans energy field, of course) and 10-pointish upgrade for an assault ramp from the front, though.


I really don't think Guardians needs much of a change. They're drafted from the general population- they shouldn't be that skilled IMO (another point seperating them from DE, where all warriors are basically elite in background). I also don't want to see their weapons become Rapid Fire- it's too common. Shuriken catapults becoming 18" range would be nice, but I won't worry if it doesn't happen. More platform weapon options would be nice- especially if it allowed for a theme (eg. another type of web weapon, to go with a Warp Spider focussed list).

I'd say a rule allowing extra move during the shooting phase (like with fleet, but roll 2 dice and take the lower)and shooting could be good enough in getting more mileage from the shuriken catapult, and might fit with the mobility theme. IG and Tyrannids already have options for that. Here is how I'd see guardians btw:

- 7 points/model (8 is quite a lot for a unit with the current profile, unless the catapult gets buffed)
- 6-12 size, apart from warlock or platform teams
- options for: shuriken catapults (default gun), lasblasters (ideally a buffed up version - ass. 3, for example, in which case they'd cost more), pistols+CCW
- can take either platform teams or special weapons (1 per 4 models); possibly include the current heavy support platforms there, due to the added bulk making them heavy rather than assault.
- platform teams: 2 models + platform, the second model (spotter) can sacrifice their own attack to make the platform higher BS or TL.
- options for: 4+ armor (storm guardians, better armored to provide close support fire), BS 4 or WS 4 (Black guardians, may require special character or something else to signify their allegiance to Ulthwe or a similar CW), grenades
- one can be upgraded to a warlock, unless we are using the wolfguard-esque method of assigning warlocks to other squads (which, particularly for a more psyker-heavy army like ulthwe, would make sense).

In its default role, this unit provides mid-ranged fire support with platform teams, possibly backed with lasblasters, while staying reasonably safe on an objective or in cover. It also has the option for a more "assault" role, being deployed via serpents in close where it hits hard with multiple templates and shuriken catapult fire, or with meltaguns and a singing spear. Am I pricing them okay? IG vets are 10 points per model iirc, which makes me a bit worried that they might be slighty OTT. On the other hand, Veterans are most dangerous when used in a chimera, becoming a scoring chimera with a lot of special weapons; for now Eldar don't have a transport with the necessary firepoints to be a mobile fire emplacement.

Kresterz
25-01-2011, 15:24
New Phoenix lords for spiders/spectres if they become official

The Forgeworld stuff become official units and

Avatar also gives bonuses to apsects per different squads

Catapults get 18" average range, avenger shurikats gets 24" likea splinter

Serpent getr assualt ramps

You guys should try for fluffing this stuff

I really want more HQ's

Chem-Dog
25-01-2011, 15:26
All Pheonix Lords having the ability to make their Aspect become a troops choice

Somewhere, in the webway Asurmen weeps a little tear :cries:


But a one-handed sword needs a really good explanation to give +2 S

A little label on the blade that reads "Made on Ulthwe" :D

It's Eldar, after seeing the arcane shennanigans their Dark cousins can pul out of a hat, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

One idea that was floated on this site many moons ago was the idea that the Avatar would reflect the Aspect of the individual that "awoke" him, Aspect Avatars. Add that to the list.

Hendarion
25-01-2011, 15:34
A little label on the blade that reads "Made on Ulthwe" :D

Made my day :evilgrin:

Kresterz
25-01-2011, 16:12
One idea that was floated on this site many moons ago was the idea that the Avatar would reflect the Aspect of the individual that "awoke" him, Aspect Avatars. Add that to the list.

I said that, aspects get different boosts when the avatar is near them
Unless you mean the avataar itself gets a boost.

Avatar needs better range and a heavy flamer attack was well, preferably similar tothe warp hunter template atk, but melta and flamer

theJ
25-01-2011, 16:15
Open topped transport vehicles would be nice, but I don't think we'll get them- too DE. I wouldn't rule out some vehicles gaining assault ramps (or similar) though. Webway portals could be good- equally applicable to Eldar and DE in background.



What about stealing the drop pod rules (hey, they steal Eldar stuff all the time)? I don't mean having a huge hunk of metal dropped down from the skies, but more like a 'teleporting platform' style transport. Assault ramps, a defensive gun or two (possibly only as upgrades), crappy defenses, possibly the ability to "re-teleport".

Other ideas would be to allow fleeting in both shooting AND assault phases, a bit more range - especially for the Guardians (Remove the difference between Avenger shuri-cats and mundane ones?), splitting Guardians into proper "Storm" and "Defender" options, bringing in the "one option per X" rules that most others use (still talking about Guardians).

Oh, and Wraithy stuff is always gold in my book :)

brightblade
25-01-2011, 16:27
Second vote for Solitaires and High Avatar for harlies.

I do also think that the Avatar of Khaine needs a little buff for fun, not his statline but the sound of a flame attack and/or range increase on melta shot and also fleet. Obviously a points increase would be needed.

Storm Guardians need grenades too. I would also like a few more interesting weapon choices for Autarchs, just looking at the DE equipment makes me green with envy. :D

Shamana
25-01-2011, 16:44
Only if they actually go into assault - if their job is to sit close and pour the eldar version of promethium into the enemy ranks, grenades may as well be a purchaseable upgrade.

BTW, speaking of new units - I can also envision bonesingers, filling a role not unlike techmarines for many SM armies.

brightblade
25-01-2011, 17:03
Was actually talking about this with somebody on the weekend (who had a bonesinger figure in their army). It is a good idea. There are loads of places to go with the Eldar codex. Almost guarantees that when we get a new one, it will be disappointing.

Hope not though. If it is a nice as the DE it will be great.

Hicks
25-01-2011, 17:54
Modelwise I want to see mounted seer council minis.

What I'd like to see as far as new units go is Wild Riders and Chieftains. Guardian jetbikes are nice and all, but they hardly have anything barbaric about them.

Geep
25-01-2011, 17:55
I suggest grenades being an option for Guardians and Dire Avengers (and maybe others). Not because I think this is tactically sensible or makes sense by background, but because the models come with them- it seems odd to push around models so obviously laden with grenades but having to remember they're not actually there...

Shamana
25-01-2011, 20:49
Modelwise I want to see mounted seer council minis.

What I'd like to see as far as new units go is Wild Riders and Chieftains. Guardian jetbikes are nice and all, but they hardly have anything barbaric about them.

Well, if they make assaulting guardian-esque jetbikes viable, I'm sure they could sell quite a few bits kits - more heads, new transfers, perhaps, and with a good pose(s) for the jetbikes it could work quite well.

Fable
25-01-2011, 21:01
While it wouldn't be an entirely new unit, I think Prism Squadrons would be a good option since they can combine fire like one unit anyway.

Warp Hunter
Firestorm
Nightwing
Phoenix Bomber
Solitaire
(Warlock and D-cannon upgrades for Wraithlords)

Chem-Dog
25-01-2011, 22:09
I said that, aspects get different boosts when the avatar is near them
Unless you mean the avatar itself gets a boost.


Indeed that's what I meant. Basic idea isn't mine but it's a good'un.
Essentially, the Avatar who is the embodiment of Khaine and each of the aspects symbolically represent a portion of that whole, with the Young King being of one of the Aspects THAT focus brings those elements of his nature to the fore.
Imagine a Scorpion Avatar with a headcrest somehow resembling that of the Scorpion Aspect, or a heavy booted skull header Reaper Avatar and so on, each version would have it's own perk over the others, A Hawk Avatar would be able to fly, a Banshee one may be quicker or faster and so-on.
It'd be a nice addition to the Avatar and would lend istelf to theming quite well.

TheRatsInTheWalls
26-01-2011, 01:02
Indeed that's what I meant. Basic idea isn't mine but it's a good'un.
Essentially, the Avatar who is the embodiment of Khaine and each of the aspects symbolically represent a portion of that whole, with the Young King being of one of the Aspects THAT focus brings those elements of his nature to the fore.
Imagine a Scorpion Avatar with a headcrest somehow resembling that of the Scorpion Aspect, or a heavy booted skull header Reaper Avatar and so on, each version would have it's own perk over the others, A Hawk Avatar would be able to fly, a Banshee one may be quicker or faster and so-on.
It'd be a nice addition to the Avatar and would lend istelf to theming quite well.

I would love to see a 7"-10" kit allowing most of these options (plastic obviously). The model would be gorgeous, and follow the trend of center-piece choices GW likes to sell.
I'd also like to see a return of The Court of the Young King retinue for the Avatar and actual Seer Councils (man I miss taking 5 Farseers).
An assault transport would be fine for certain aspects, but I'll be upset if it has a transport capacity of more than 5. Taking things from the Dark Eldar to update their Craftworld cousins just diminishes what makes them special (I waited 10 years for that update, I'd rather not see anything steal its thunder). The same goes for any weapon which wounds on a set value not based on d-cannon technology.

As for new things, how about more Warlock powers? Split their powers into offensive and defensive powers, and then let them take one of each if the player wants to spend the points. A BS buff for guardians, a short-range haywire effect, maybe even mindwar and a small blast Eldritch Storm.

Dwane Diblie
26-01-2011, 03:41
What I would lik to see added to the next codex:

- Spirit Warrior (Psycic Wraithlord) as a HQ
- Wraithprince as a HQ
- Ghost Warriors (as mentioned above)
- A form of Wraith Guard with some form of combat weapon and shield.
- 2 wound HQ characters in the form of Warseers, Bonesinger, Guardian Heros, Pirate/Corsair Heros, Exarch.
- All forgeworld models. (common guard get theirs.)

Changes to actual unit entrys:
- Guardians split in to Defenders and Storm again. They have nothing in common except their stat line and warlock option. Ork boyz only had a base weapon change and that works for them. Defenders need Lasblasters base and both units should have the option to swap base weapons for catapults. There is no need to increase the range of catapults they work fine as they are if you assault with them, Lasblasters fix the range issue and would leave the points as they are. Well I would drop them to 7pts.
- For every guardian squad, defender, storm or jetbike. You may take a Support Weapons Battery.
- With the addition of the awsome Hornets, Vipers need to revert back to Viper Jetbikes and be given a statline like SM Attack Bikes. Then Jetbikes need to have the Shuriken Cannon option replaced with a Viper Jetbike option instead.
- Falcons moved to dedicated transports for Aspects only and maybe a BS of 4.

I heard mention of the Avatar taking on the ability of the prince that was sacrificed. I had this idea back in 04 or 05. Thoigh I am not sure I shaired it with anyone. I know I posted it on my one site at the time but that is well and truly gone. Anyway my idea was that you randomly sacrificed one of your exarchs from your list and the Avatar would get abilitys based on what exarch was sacrificed. I have since lost all that but it was things like:
Banshee Exarch: Avatar gaind Always Strike First
Shining Spear: Avatar counts as Cavalry
Swooping Hawks: Avatar Counts as Jump Infantry
so on and so forth.

Heafstaag
26-01-2011, 04:15
Exodite Eldar!

AlexHolker
26-01-2011, 04:17
There is no need to increase the range of catapults they work fine as they are if you assault with them,
Why would you assault with them?

Hendarion
26-01-2011, 04:24
Imagine a Scorpion Avatar with a headcrest somehow resembling that of the Scorpion Aspect, or a heavy booted skull header Reaper Avatar and so on, each version would have it's own perk over the others, A Hawk Avatar would be able to fly, a Banshee one may be quicker or faster and so-on.
It'd be a nice addition to the Avatar and would lend istelf to theming quite well.
You're making a joke here, don't you? A flying Avatar? An Avatar that changes the look and abilities based on the Young King? Doesn't sound really canon to existing fluff to me and I actually don't like the idea.

Shamana
26-01-2011, 08:14
Why would you assault with them?

With 12-inch range? If you don't assault, the other guy will :)

Reflex
26-01-2011, 10:18
I think the point was that guardians suck in assault.

Shamana
26-01-2011, 10:52
True - they are marginally better than guardsmen - but if the choice is between assaulting yourself or getting assaulted the next turn, getting the assault first may be a viable option. Especially if you've managed to whittle down the enemy squad to a more manageable level :) .

Shnerg
26-01-2011, 11:33
And said assault would be especially nasty, if like me, you field squads of guardians bigger than Miley's ego.

AlexHolker
26-01-2011, 11:54
True - they are marginally better than guardsmen - but if the choice is between assaulting yourself or getting assaulted the next turn, getting the assault first may be a viable option. Especially if you've managed to whittle down the enemy squad to a more manageable level :) .
The only reason the Eldar face this choice in the first place is because some idiot at GW decided that the Eldar, being a dying race whose "foreign policy" is defined by their willingness to save a single Eldar even at the cost of thousands of alien lives, would send their WS3, S3, T3 5+Sv troops into battle with a gun that forces them into assault range if they want to shoot anything.

Aliarzathanil
26-01-2011, 22:39
What I'd like to see:
Vypers having a toughness instead of an AV
Vypers as attachments to guardian jebike squads
Hornets added to the main book
Autarchs that allow you to take one aspect squad as troops
Avatar conferring counter attack and furious assault
Swooping Hawks given a purpose
New special characters
Free Haywire grenades for Guardians, upgrade more widely available
Wraithguard with two wounds
New psychic powers with multiple power levels
If a psychic hood fails to stop a power the farseer should be able to mentally attack the user (to help mitigate the multiple uses per turn of this item)
Warp Gates/Portals
Perhaps some Craftworld variation
Background on obscure craftworlds
A story about an Avatar getting beat up (I'd hate to see the streak broken, and Eldar players love ranting about this more than anything. I don't want them to lose that).

Zaonite
26-01-2011, 22:51
Well story wise... I'd like to see an Avatar rip the crap out of any Space Marine chapter master. Preferably Marneus Calgar.

New stuff i'd like to see...

1) Star Eagles Aspect Warriors
2) Slicing orbs of Zandros Aspect Warriors (in 2nd ed codex, described as "wonderfully terrifying")
3) Some kind of Wraithlord HQ.
4) Return of old special characters such Iyanna Arienal and Nuada Fireheart.
5) More Phoenix Lords. (that makes their aspect a troops choice or at least scoring)
6) Combat kitted Wraithguard
7) A Wraithlord capable of wielding a D-Cannon. :cool:
8) Bonesinger rules

Retribution
27-01-2011, 05:12
Assaulting with Guardians...lol

Hendarion
27-01-2011, 07:53
2) Slicing orbs of Zandros Aspect Warriors (in 2nd ed codex, described as "wonderfully terrifying")
I think some things are more cool if unknown and a mystery. If GW would release them, that big mystery blows up and probably only ends in disappointment... some things shouldn't be revealed ;)

Zaonite
27-01-2011, 11:55
I think some things are more cool if unknown and a mystery. If GW would release them, that big mystery blows up and probably only ends in disappointment... some things shouldn't be revealed ;)

Even a vague piece of artwork would do. Make it even more tantalising.

MorningLightMountain
27-01-2011, 12:26
Nah, I'm with Hendarion. Slicing Orbs are kind of like Nigella Lawson's Orbs. We all love imagining what they'd be like but we know that if they were ever revealed then they'd be the same tired 50-year old, had 2 kids orbs that we've already seen. I'd rather be titillated :)

Bonzai
27-01-2011, 14:50
A "Wraith Seer" HQ. Essentually a Wraithlord with Spirit Seer, and some warlock powers. Fluff being that they contain the spirit stones of powerful seers.

Bone Singers: Elite support units, designed to attach to Wraithguard and make them tougher. Kind of like sanguinary priests. Fluff wise, they psychicly repair the wraithbone, healing the damage.

Add in the missing Pheonix Lords (for completeness).


Other than that, I think the Eldar codex is very fleshed out. Maybe some of the flyers could be added to the codex as a fast attack, but really they aren't needed. Just some tweaking to what is in there already.

Hendarion
27-01-2011, 15:05
Why do so many people ask for Phoenix Lords for all aspects? By the fluff many Aspects DO NOT have a Phoenix Lord (yet).

Gu Long: Ancient Dragon
27-01-2011, 15:12
Why do so many people ask for Phoenix Lords for all aspects? By the fluff many Aspects DO NOT have a Phoenix Lord (yet).

And so it should stay!!!!!!

C.S. Goto already tried to introduce a Warp Spider PL and it was rubbish, leave well alone IMO

Tho a Wraith-style HQ would certainly make me wanna go back to the Eldar.

Gu

Tethylis
27-01-2011, 16:05
Eldrad not in the Codex. Because he is dead. And it would amuse me.


Tho a Wraith-style HQ would certainly make me wanna go back to the Eldar.

How about we combine these two and hey presto. :cheese:
The Wraithdrad, a T8 MC with triple psi powers, divination, rune armour and witchblade/staff and maybe a bright lance or EML oh and don't forget the runes o' warding. :p
That would make me smile.

SgtTaters
27-01-2011, 18:12
Exarch and Warlock turned into w2 IC's unlocked by your HQ choice
HQ
Path of the Warrior: Autarch or Avatar choice lets you take 0-5 Exarch IC's
Path of the Seer: Farseer choice lets you take 0-5 Warlocks IC's

Exarch may only join aspect squads. Focus more on 'killing machine', less on 'squad babysitter'. Aspect powers should be built into the squad.

Warlocks may join any squad. May take a psychic test to enhance their powers (ex: a s6 destructor, conceal/embolden/enhance that affects all squads within 6") Now these guys can be the mega-babysitters lol.

now an army that can field 11 independent characters sound stylish. Alas, if space marine space wolves couldn't throw out 11 IC's, dirty xenos sure aren't going to. That's what makes it a wishlist. It wouldn't necissarily be unbalanced though, they'd all be terribly vulnerable and aren't as durable as nobs or tyranid warriors, which are armies that can field whole squads of multiwound customizable chaps. A w1 non IC 'wolfguard' type is believable though.

Stickmonkey
27-01-2011, 19:20
Spirit seer nexus. Unit of three spirit seers on wriathbone platform, provide spirit sight across table...no other ability than to remove that handicap?

CelestialDragonKing
28-01-2011, 18:44
hmmm, what I'd like to see. There's a lot.

1. At least one new aspect. I don't care what it does just so long as it's new. It could be an amphibious aspect for all I care!
2. New sculpt for Warp Spiders. The old ones are great but they are over decade old!
3. New HQ's and Elites like Pirate Captain, Great Harlequin, Exodites, Solitaire, Bonesinger.
4. Change the Shiriken Catapult to be Assault 2 OR Heavy 3.
5. Guardians with grenades
6. I'd like to see rangers to be a little less aspect like and let them have more variable gear. Right now I find them to just be another aspect.
7. Do something to swooping hawks to make them useful. Make the lasblaster assault 3 or better grenades, maybe haywire grenades.
8. One thing they might be doing is new Storm guardians because you can't get them anymore. That's usually an indication. But I'd like them to have a new look or at least new swords. Other than Scorps I don't like them having chainswords. Very imperial to me.
9. More varied Wraithlords in some way.
10. Some have already mentioned and i think is cool to allow warithguard to take cc weapons.
11. Background Background Background. I want more craftworlds at least mentioned.

Endobai
28-01-2011, 19:15
Here is something from me:


1. Wraith HQ model - fluffwise and gamewise makes perfect sense.

2. HQ Warlock choice would also be sensible,

3. New psychic powers and changes with some of those already present - conceal for example,

4. Changed shuriken catapults - extended range could be enough,

5. More choices for Guardians - more than one platform and inclusion of heavy support platforms would be acceptable and increase sells,

6. Granades for Storm Guardians and perhaps some weapon options - for example 0-2 power weapons or scorpion chainswords,
New kit will appear eventually so some options are necessary.

7. Plastic Wraithguards which could allow adding h-t-h option for these models allowing more wraithguard based armies,

8. New Warp Spider and Jetbike kits. Spiders are very nice, but also very old while Jetbikes - we've already seen the prototypes. They could include a Shining Spear options or a Warlock set,

9. Plastic Hornet and perhaps Firestorm/Warp Hunter kit or Firestorm/Falcon box the way it was done with new Prisms,

10. Altered Vyper rules. Ideas to turn them into W2 Eldar 'Attack' Jetbikes are very nice. If they could act as an upgrade to Guardian Jetbike squadrons it would be even better,

11. A champion for Rangers, maybe even a HQ Outcast leader to help somehow with Ranger based forces,

12. Autarch allowing Aspect based armies as many people suggest,

13. Falcon as a dedicated transport so leaving Heavy Support slot - it is already overcrowded,

14. War Walkers moved to Fast Attack - these are scouts after all and would save another HS entry,

15. Aircrafts in the codex,

16. Vibro Cannon - for example with no cover saves and AP6 so that it can glance something with some results, Weaver with something (rending?) and D-Cannon all removed from the HS and given to Guardians as upgrades.

and in addition hopefully Seer Council (as in 2000 only on foot!), Young King's Court and Black Guardians in the codex so that main craftword armies could be easier to field.


Other changes such as helping Shining Spears and Swooping Hawks somehow are also quite obvious.

The Anarchist
28-01-2011, 20:14
loads of the options already listed would be amazing and beautiful to see, such as Young Kings Court (maybe as a retinue for an Avatar even) but to me the hint of the 'Slicing orbs of Zandros' have been a teaser for years that i would love to see!

sabreu
28-01-2011, 22:05
- Bonesingers
- Guardian squads that could take the artillery pieces as standard troops (radical idea)
- Better Autarchs
- 1 or 2 New Aspects.
- Better swooping hawks
- More actual special characters (Non-Pheonix lords)
- Seperate wraithguard into two units, one cc focused and one shooting focused.

random other stuff.

AlexHolker
28-01-2011, 22:27
- Guardian squads that could take the artillery pieces as standard troops (radical idea)
Terrible idea. If one army is going to get artillery as troops choices, the Eldar should not be it. It would make more sense to put Falcons in there, at least they're mobile enough to be a proper Eldar-y unit.

Rlyehable
28-01-2011, 22:36
New units:


Tank commander Aspect Warrior (BS4 (5 for exarch)), skilled rider, exarch powers (ignore cover, outflank, etc.)). More of an upgrade for vehicles than models, but could have an option to escape the vehicle if vehicle is disabled.
Assault skimmer between Falcon and Wave Serpent (carry 8 or 9), perhaps a fixed gun or only the chin mount cannon. Could even use the Falcon frame and replace the turret with a molded piece.
Warp Gate (wargear) counts as an eldar board edge.
Flyer of some sort.
Warp Hunter
Ghost Walker (CC version of Wraithguard)

Changes to Units:


Reorganize psychic rules for Farseer/Warlock. Give Farseers defensive/buff powers (Guide, Conceal, Enhance, Doom, etc.). Give Warlocks offensive powers (Destructor, Mind Warp, Eldrich Storm, etc.) Farseers see the future so can guide where to shoot, hide from the enemy, instruct a unit on where best place to shoot, etc. Warlocks have been aspect warriors and are still part of the shrine (where the warlock gear is kept), they do not see the future, but harness their psychic power to destroy their enemies.
Instead of purchasing a Farseer or Warlock, you purchase a Seer Council. Number of Warlocks up to the number of Aspect units. Up to 1 Farseer for every 3 Warlocks. Both are Independent Characters that may be joined to aspect or guardian units pre-game (1 per unit) or remain joined to the Seer Council.
Vyper Jetbikes become heavy jetbikes (2 wounds). Lower cost.
Change aspect warriors to 4+/4+i or 4+/5+i and give all fleet and relentless.
Give all "monofiliment" weapons the dangerous terrain ability of the Night Spinner. Especially Warp Spiders' Spinners.
Make Witch Weapons force weapons (as their description) in addition to their current rules. Makes Warlocks/Farseers to be fearsom in close combat.
Make Falcons and Waveserpents flyers if flyer rules get added (and in apocalypse)

Kresterz
29-01-2011, 03:31
Create invul saves on tanks... 6+ only

TheLaughingGod
29-01-2011, 04:12
Create invul saves on tanks... 6+ only

Are you kidding me? Our Dark Kin get 5+ invuls and you think the more advanced Craftworlders should have 6+?? Really now.

Geep
29-01-2011, 04:16
Make Witch Weapons force weapons (as their description) in addition to their current rules. Makes Warlocks/Farseers to be fearsom in close combat.
That would be far too nasty. Assuming the current state of farseers with warlock bodyguards remains the same, with the jetbike option, you can use fortune, turbo-boost for a 3+ normal, 3+ cover, re-rollable save (ie. not going to die), then assault in the next turn slaughtering any multiwound or MC units with insane ease (My 'nid side objects strongly to this).

Having Falcons become dedicated transports would be good, and Warwalkers move to FA- the Eldar HS slots are over stuffed at the moment.

TheLaughingGod
29-01-2011, 04:27
That would be far too nasty. Assuming the current state of farseers with warlock bodyguards remains the same, with the jetbike option, you can use fortune, turbo-boost for a 3+ normal, 3+ cover, re-rollable save (ie. not going to die), then assault in the next turn slaughtering any multiwound or MC units with insane ease (My 'nid side objects strongly to this).

Make them Power weapons that wound on 2+ and deal Instant Death on a wound roll of 6. That should be fine.
It seems powerful, but only half of those are going to hit in general, and even then they have 2-3 attacks at most.

Eumerin
31-01-2011, 19:57
Terrible idea. If one army is going to get artillery as troops choices, the Eldar should not be it. It would make more sense to put Falcons in there, at least they're mobile enough to be a proper Eldar-y unit.

?

This is Eldar artillery that we're talking about here. Even if it all started popping up on the front lines as troop choices, you still wouldn't see 5" pie plates scattered across the table every shooting phase.

N3p3nth3
31-01-2011, 20:57
Are you kidding me? Our Dark Kin get 5+ invuls and you think the more advanced Craftworlders should have 6+?? Really now.

Since when are the mobile home eldar more advanced than the lords of Commorragh?

Reflex
31-01-2011, 21:22
I do like the idea of a tank aspect warrior sort of thing. call them the swords of vaul or something hehe. obviously a downside already would be that they would have to be squadroned.

Shamana
31-01-2011, 22:05
Since when are the mobile home eldar more advanced than the lords of Commorragh?

'scuse me, the lords of Commorragh get a 2++. Now, it's debatable if the craftworlders or the dark eldar managed to salvage more pre-fall technology, but even then the craftworlders should have some seriously good stuff. Your "mobile home" kids are the ones with a gunboat that has more armor than holes and field titans, remember? Besides, Craftworld eldar are much more likely to enter a protracted conflict where armor and survivability is an issue - the DE way of war is almost completely centered on surprise raids and hit-and-run tactics, ideally against poorly defended targets such as civilian populations. Yeah, the raider's good for that.

Also, the 5++ costs 10 points, which imo is a decent deal, especially given how easily the DE vehicles fold. I'm ok with it (or something like it) being a purchaseable upgrade on eldar vehicles, at comparable cost. But a 6+ invulnerable save... would that be worth even 5 points, considering how often it pops up?

Now, this is all strictly imo, but when I think of eldar (or any elves in particular) in war, mobility, precision, and elite (as in, well-trained and few) troops, and I'd like this to be the overall theme of the codex. Not necessarily frail, just not as durable for the same points - which the SMs achieve with T4 3+, and Orks/IG by just having a lot more bodies. Compared to the Dark Eldar, I'd expect to see (and I'm painting with a broad brush here) similar (or nearly so) firepower and mobility, higher durability and higher cost. I'm not that fond of the "aspect tank drivers" idea - while there may be something like that, it could be represented by simply giving vehicles BS 4 - trained tank crews, high-tech targeters, or whatever, it's not inappropriate for the eldar (after all, they already have it on the prism), and as long as it's fairly reflected in the price I don't think anyone would care. I'd say either give (most) vehicles BS 4 outright, or make it a cheap upgrade like with the Tau.

Anyway, I had an idea about guardians I posted some time ago, lmk what you think:

- base price: 7 or lower with the current stats of them and the gun. A comparison: 10 IG vets cost 70 points, come with higher BS, frag and krak grenades. 10 shoota boys cost 60. I would prefer giving the shuriken catapult better range and giving most eldar infantry the ability to shoot and move 1d3/1d6 inches in the shooting phase, a la Al-rahem's order or the Tyrannid power. With those, the original cost can be retained, possibly upped to 9 (Kabalite warrior equivalent) if the unit has grenades.

- size:6-12, one can be upgraded to a warlock

- loadout: have options for longer-ranged fire support (lasblaster or similar), mid-range (shuriken catapults), and melee (needs proper support here, synergies with doctrine and warlock power). Possibly have higher price if the lasblaster or shuriken catapult is improved. Option for plasma grenades, possibly haywire.

- special weaponry: for every 4 guardians, you can take either
- a guardian armed with a special weapon (flamer, melta, shredder-like AoE gun, ??). The close fire support option
- a one support platform team of two specialists (the current support platform). The longer-range fire support option.
- one of the teammates may as spotter, giving up his own shooting to give the platform +1 BS / reroll 1st missed shot (a la mastercrafted).

- special options: to reflect craftworld doctrine, you can upgrade the squad to storm guardians (4+ armor, specialized units for close-quarters combat) and/or black guardians (+1 WS or BS, elite guardian units or from craftworlds otherwise unable to rely much on aspects), possibly doctrines to allow for melee-related abilities to reflect more savage craftworlds a la Saim-Hann.

TheLaughingGod
31-01-2011, 22:12
Since when are the mobile home eldar more advanced than the lords of Commorragh?

The fact that the Craftworld Eldar are True Eldar and the slumlords of the pit known as Commorragh are merely pale husks of the true glory of the Eldar race not-with-standing, the Craftworlders have much more advanced technology.

Shuriken Catapults are gravitic launchers on the same scale as the Splinter Rifles which are merely electromagnetic coilguns.

Monomolecular wire weapons exist on a HUGE scale.
Eldar have heavier, faster tanks with heavier weapons.
Wraithlords are soultech that even the Haemonculi can't match
Titans.
Psychic technology in general.
Craftworlders can actually repair the webway and aren't just using it.
Pretty sure Eldar armour technology is superior too.

Sildani
31-01-2011, 22:17
Reflex: Vypers could be squadded-up like that. Hornets too if they make the Codex.

Falcons, Prisms, Warp Hunters etc (NOT Wave Serpents) could be handled by single Star Eagle pilots. That's what I'd call 'em. 0-2 choice (a squad pf Vypers counts as one), 20-30 points each, grants BS4 and Skilled Rider to the vehicle they pilot. Add 60 points for the Charge of Alean Aspect Power, which confers the Deep Strike ability to the vehicle or squad of vehicles piloted. The vehicle would count as moving Flat Out until the Eldar player's next turn, and the Scatter dice to Deep Strike could be re-rolled.

Autarchs count as Scoring.

Swooping Hawk Exarchs get a Haywire grenade launcher, as well as the Exarch power Master of the Sky: the unit may re-roll the Scatter Dice when they Deep Strike. Lasblasters become Str 4.

Bonesingers.

Farseers gain the ability to "force" their powers to work even when nullified.

Solitaire. NOT an HQ choice. What army would follow one?

Fire Prism: Crystal Targeting Matrix: ignores the rules for firing Blast weapons. Roll to hit normally using its Ballistic Skill.

War Walkers: move to Fast Attack.

Dark Reapers: +5 points/model: Reaper Targeting Vanes: reaper launchers ignore cover saves.

Phoenix Lords: gain a blanket 5+ invulnerable save, except Asurmen. The Lords count the Aspect squad they join as Scoring.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

Poseidal
31-01-2011, 23:07
Since this is a wishlist:

An Eldar pirate HQ, special characters and units.

Of course, it wouldn't fit in the list and either they'll be useless or so good that they replace the Craftworld options (no middle ground).

AlexHolker
31-01-2011, 23:54
?

This is Eldar artillery that we're talking about here. Even if it all started popping up on the front lines as troop choices, you still wouldn't see 5" pie plates scattered across the table every shooting phase.
I'm not talking about the in-game effectiveness, I'm talking about the fact that the army list should actually reflect the army's combat doctrine. This means that slow-moving artillery should not be Troops (if they should be in the codex at all), and Guardians should not be cannon fodder.

Dreamseru
01-02-2011, 00:23
now I haven't un-boxed an autarch, but im pretty sure most of his parts require you to buy other sets.
so a more expensive autarch with the other parts already included would be nice, and more plastic units.
having all my aspect warriors metal makes them feel less unique then I know they should be for their fluff.

Gazak Blacktoof
01-02-2011, 00:32
A new aspect (though we'e getting one or two from forgeworld anyway).
Bonesinger
Venoms

Trying to write my own rules for eldar I realised its already a massive list because each the usual infantry specialisations are separated out into different units.

As for new kits, well some plastic aspect warriors and wraithguard would be appreciated, as would a few additional character sculpts.

Shamana
01-02-2011, 09:05
... and Guardians should not be cannon fodder.

Well, in the eldar codex, no eldar unit should be cannon fodder. You want specialized bullet catchers, get an IG regiment or an ork klan to do it for you :) . BTW, what would people think of Autarchs being able to get 1-3 "special" abilities, some applied to the squad they are in and others being army-wide, kind of like what the regimental advisors do for IG? Just some examples:

- Suppression specialist: the autarch's squad benefits from his plasma grenades as long as the autarch is attached.

- Coordinated assault: Eldar squads assaulting an enemy unit in close combat with the autarch or the squad he's attached to reroll missed to-hit rolls.

- Flank march: The autarch can be attached to any unit to make them able to enter via outflanking, and any outflanking units may re-roll to choose which side of the board they appear from reserve.

- Webway ambush: units entering via deepstrike may reroll the scatter dice.

Hendarion
01-02-2011, 09:24
Charge of Alean.

Charge of Alien? Dunno if we need more "Eldar-words" which sound exactly like english words ;)

@Shamana:
The special abilities sound pimp.

Tethylis
01-02-2011, 09:30
I really wish my Dark Reapers could get their krak & plasma missiles back.

Poseidal
01-02-2011, 09:33
IIRC Alean is the steed of Khaine, which is also the name given to the guy's Vyper Jetbike.

Hendarion
01-02-2011, 09:37
Aha. Well, it sounds bad in this context :p

N3p3nth3
01-02-2011, 11:01
The fact that the Craftworld Eldar are True Eldar and the slumlords of the pit known as Commorragh are merely pale husks of the true glory of the Eldar race not-with-standing, the Craftworlders have much more advanced technology.

Shuriken Catapults are gravitic launchers on the same scale as the Splinter Rifles which are merely electromagnetic coilguns.

Monomolecular wire weapons exist on a HUGE scale.
Eldar have heavier, faster tanks with heavier weapons.
Wraithlords are soultech that even the Haemonculi can't match
Titans.
Psychic technology in general.
Craftworlders can actually repair the webway and aren't just using it.
Pretty sure Eldar armour technology is superior too.

While I'm sure that the Dark Eldar would take issue with your claim that the craftworld refugees are the true Eldar, you'll notice that the key difference is that CW Eldar (still) have psychic powers (and the related infinity circuits) - and their tech is heavily dependent on it.

Claims of Mobile Home Eldar Armour Tech superiority are met with the Incubi/Ghostplate armor counterargument, and summarily dismissed. ;)

But more seriously, IMO it's obvious that there's supposed to be a technological parity between the two branches of the eldar race - mechanically superior deldar and psychically superior CWeldar.

Sildani
01-02-2011, 11:12
IIRC Alean is the steed of Khaine, which is also the name given to the guy's Vyper Jetbike.

Correct. Nuadhu Fireheart, actually.


Aha. Well, it sounds bad in this context :p

Eh. I don't insist upon it.

Shamana
01-02-2011, 11:54
But more seriously, IMO it's obvious that there's supposed to be a technological parity between the two branches of the eldar race - mechanically superior deldar and psychically superior CWeldar.

I wouldn't say it's obvious - arguably the one place where we have clear evidence of DE superiority is the biology and soul alchemy, like the haemunculi being able to regenerate themselves or another from a mortal wound, or them (iirc) considering the wraith-constructs amusing (as in, novice) tricks. Extending it to any mechanical pursuit is... tricky, imo. Craftworld mechanics are good enough to field notably larger vehicles, after all. Of course, it could be claimed that the DE simply place less value on their troops' lives to bother giving them good armor and could give all kabalites incubi warsuits if they wanted, but good luck trying to prove it.

The main differences imo is in the amount of hardware both races were able to salvage, but I wouldn't say that's been addressed much. I think the distinction is mostly made for thematic reasons, with the DE envisioned as eldar on crack - more mobile, harder-hitting and more fragile (for the points, at least). When you don't adjust for points, the craftworlders tend to have more expensive stuff, DE more of it.

BTW, one thing that kinda irked me about the DE codex is how it inflated WS/BS for HQ units. I mean, is there any particular reason why archons should have WS/BS of 7, more than any autarch, SM captain/chapter master, and equal to the freaking phoenix lords? Yes, archons should be good in personal combat (among other things) to earn their position - but their main schtick is being ruthless manipulative bastards being able to play their underlings against each other and outscheme their opponents. They have even less mention of mastering the arts of war than the other two, how is WS 6 too low for them? Archites (I refuse to call them Succubi) are the ones whose position relies almost solely on combat prowess - and even for them, I find it hard to believe that they could achieve the mastery of the original exarchs, millenia-old amalgamations of Khaine's most zealous disciples literally unable to think of anything except battles, much less exceed it.

TheRatsInTheWalls
02-02-2011, 09:51
...BTW, what would people think of Autarchs being able to get 1-3 "special" abilities, some applied to the squad they are in and others being army-wide, kind of like what the regimental advisors do for IG? J...

I would like to see this type of thing become standard on all (or at least most) combat/leader type HQ selections. This type of rule would make such choices much more interesting, and could add depth to the game. They would be hard to balance however.


I wouldn't say it's obvious - arguably the one place where we have clear evidence of DE superiority is the biology and soul alchemy, like the haemunculi being able to regenerate themselves or another from a mortal wound, or them (iirc) considering the wraith-constructs amusing (as in, novice) tricks. Extending it to any mechanical pursuit is... tricky, imo. Craftworld mechanics are good enough to field notably larger vehicles, after all. Of course, it could be claimed that the DE simply place less value on their troops' lives to bother giving them good armor and could give all kabalites incubi warsuits if they wanted, but good luck trying to prove it.

The main differences imo is in the amount of hardware both races were able to salvage, but I wouldn't say that's been addressed much. I think the distinction is mostly made for thematic reasons, with the DE envisioned as eldar on crack - more mobile, harder-hitting and more fragile (for the points, at least). When you don't adjust for points, the craftworlders tend to have more expensive stuff, DE more of it.

BTW, one thing that kinda irked me about the DE codex is how it inflated WS/BS for HQ units. I mean, is there any particular reason why archons should have WS/BS of 7, more than any autarch, SM captain/chapter master, and equal to the freaking phoenix lords? Yes, archons should be good in personal combat (among other things) to earn their position - but their main schtick is being ruthless manipulative bastards being able to play their underlings against each other and outscheme their opponents. They have even less mention of mastering the arts of war than the other two, how is WS 6 too low for them? Archites (I refuse to call them Succubi) are the ones whose position relies almost solely on combat prowess - and even for them, I find it hard to believe that they could achieve the mastery of the original exarchs, millenia-old amalgamations of Khaine's most zealous disciples literally unable to think of anything except battles, much less exceed it.

First, I am so happy to hear someone else upset about Archites' new name.
I don't think there is enough information to decide either way about who has more tech. The 4th ed. Eldar Codex is relatively silent on the issue, while Codex: Dark Eldar discusses it in some detail. I say we just leave off that discussion until the next Codex: Craftworld Eldar comes out with similar information.
Archons and Archites represent the pinnacle of the same kind of obsession that drives the Exarchs in a society which does not try to suppress such obsessions. They need to perfect the kill to maintain their positions, and have held said positions for centuries. I think their WS/BS is justified. That said, I'd like to see Autarchs and Phoenix Lords similarly talented in the 5th ed. Codex.

Kresterz
02-02-2011, 11:50
Ialso hope to see our aspects get WS/BS boost, I mean, they are only+1 above guardians...(normal and thats pretty average compared to others.)

Shamana
02-02-2011, 13:04
I would like to see this type of thing become standard on all (or at least most) combat/leader type HQ selections. This type of rule would make such choices much more interesting, and could add depth to the game. They would be hard to balance however.

Well, IG already do it with the orders/advisers system, sometimes to a nearly laughable degree. Remember the part about "Bring it down" requiring advanced targeters, yadayada, or just a good pair of binoculars? Yeah, I kinda think the Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, etc have way more than any "good pair of binoculars" an IG major will likely have issued, but they don't exactly get any of that, right? SMs have combat squads / ATSKNF / chapter tactics, although I do agree that it could be expanded on a bit. When it comes to the Eldar, it could be expanded on - both for autarchs and for farseers. Their schtick was supposed to be divination - if they can't all be Eldrads, can't they at least have some of Tigurius' mojo?

Personally, I'd want to expand powers and wargear for the autarch to provide a choice between mostly command role, more powerful combat support - or both, if you really have points to spare.


Archons and Archites represent the pinnacle of the same kind of obsession that drives the Exarchs in a society which does not try to suppress such obsessions. They need to perfect the kill to maintain their positions, and have held said positions for centuries. I think their WS/BS is justified. That said, I'd like to see Autarchs and Phoenix Lords similarly talented in the 5th ed. Codex.

Archites yes, although even for them being able to outfence the likes of Granny Jenn (a.k.a "Jain-Zar") tends to go a bit too far. Yet archons are constantly described as machinators, schemers, politicians of sorts - their combat prowess is almost added as an afterthought. While they would probably be a cut above the average kabalite, their power depends on intrigue, maneuvering and leadership - it's perfectly fine for them to maintain their position by having someone else kill the challengers, and iirc . Now, granted, I haven't read the new codex fluff on the topic - I just read the unit descriptions - but I wouldn't be surprised if a SM chapter master has more combat experience and training than the average archon.

Sai-Lauren
02-02-2011, 13:49
Warlocks/Farseer on jetbike models? :rolleyes:

Bonesinger - partly to repair, but mainly for unit aid type powers (either beef up a friendly unit's armour save or give a cover save, the Wraithtomb ability from DoW, but works against all units, not just buildings and so on).

Lasblasters option for guardians.

Modify the lance rule to affect armour saves as well as vehicle armour - say something like automatically getting AP1 on a 6 to wound (to make it both more effective against infantry, and remove the :wtf: aspect of it affecting really heavy armour, but not merely heavy armour) - and possiby even make it something like lance x, where x is the maximum armour value possible.

E.g, the current version of the rule would be Lance 12, whilst allowing LasBlasters to be Lance 14 (so they get the anti-personnel aspect of it) and something like a Phantom Titan or a rebirth of the old Deathstalker to potentially get weapons with Lance 10.



- "light" transport, or a more modular serpent (optional energy fields, optional assault ramp as a front exit). Something like a venom would be good, especially if it has a transport capacity of 6+ models.

Not an assault ramp, but a field upgrade to allow units to disembark and assault if the transport tank shocks. (There was one in a piece of fluff ages ago).

I'd also like Eldar to be able to really mess with the enemies heads, picking off someone, then dancing away and not taking a hit in the process, until they get in position and seriously carve their enemy up, for example:

An expensive Farseer power: Foresight. When used, get D3 rerolls which can be used any time between now and the next Eldar turn, and can be used on opponents rolls. Possibly also get the Callidus' Word in your Ear ability to reflect that the Farseer's seen the enemies deployment, and ordered units to redeploy accordingly, whilst conjuring illusions to make the enemy think they're elsewhere.

Fairly expensive Warlock Power: Cloak. Unit targetting Cloak units are subject to the nightfight rules.

Oh, and referring to the units by their Eldar name, not the Imperial translations. ;) After all, the Eldar name for what Imperials know as the Falcon has much deeper meaning to them, for example.

Xarian
02-02-2011, 14:01
I mean, is there any particular reason why archons should have WS/BS of 7, more than any autarch, SM captain/chapter master, and equal to the freaking phoenix lords?

Supposedly, the Archons are the 'oldest of the old' - Eldar who have been around so ridiculously long by consuming thousands upon thousands of souls and being hardcore badasses. The argument for Phoenix Lords having such high stats is essentially the same (that they have been around since the oldest days).

Also, keep in mind that craftworld eldar are not constantly having to fight each other to stay alive or fend off rivals. That much competition would tend to hone their skills more than the more peaceful types.

Of course, that's just the storybook reason. The actual reason is that they needed a HQ with impressive stats to act as the lynchpin to the army. Craftworld eldar are more support oriented - their "one eldar killing machines" are the phoenix lords, and they have similar stats.

Poseidal
02-02-2011, 14:32
My idea was a miniaturised Storm Serpent (I had it as a Falcon upgrade replacing it's transport capacity, but a shiny new model wouldn't be amiss).

It only allows Infantry (possibly size restricted) to come through, but they come in from reserve as if it was a table edge (if it's done, it may not move flat-out that turn).

This is sort of a take on the Webway portal in Dark Eldar and the old Ulthwe lists, but with a unique twist. It works the other way around, where the other you protect until deployed where it's there for the game, this one is around from the beginning until the vehicle is destroyed.

Shamana
02-02-2011, 14:43
@ Sai-Lauren - I'd actually be interested in the foresight being an optional upgrade to the regular farseer, especially if Eldrad isn't listed in the next codex. I think it might cost something like 15-20 points, although that would of course need a bit of playtesting to get right.

Perhaps the codex could have two tiers of (active) psykers, elite-class seers (for example - 2 wounds, single power per turn) and HQ-level farseers, apart from any "passive" seers like warlocks, shadowseers, bonesingers etc. It is a psychic race, after all - I'm kinda tired of the Space Wolves, of all SM chapters, being able to field more psykers*. A degree of psyker saturation like the 1k Sons chaos armies or the Grey Knights (which we will see soon, at least) is what I'm hoping for.

*Sorry if I don't count the warlocks - but rulewise they are just some guys with fancy weapons, bestowing special rules and with a 4++ save.

@ Xarian: I think it's more of a fluff reason, or rather something to spice up the army. Yeah, the average crafworlder is somewhat less of a murdering psychopath, but the aspects (and I'd say the autarchs) are quite rigorous in their practice. I am hoping that the Incubi might not be the only zealots of Khaine to get above-marine WS or BS, come the next eldar codex... Anyway, I think the old archons/archites were quite beastly in combat anyway - the buff wasn't all that necessary imo. Ah well, what's done is done - if it reflects a general trend for higher accuracy (which is what WS/BS indicates, supposedly) throughout the pointy-eared types, I'll be happy - I think that's part of what their schtick should be.

Kresterz
02-02-2011, 17:41
I believe that a gravetic accelorator could do better than a electro pulsar in terms of firing, this range on a kabalite is crazy long...twice as long as guardian rifle and Avvy Wailing Doom. Avenger rifles made as well or better while guardian and Avvy get to a minimum to Avenger, (higher is better)

Both on fluff and in game its sort of proven.

I also want plastic elite aspects,
a new kind of weapon, it can instantly target one unit of units and does not need to roll for hit. Howver, being so powerful, it cannot be used the next turn. Stats coiuld be AP 4, strength 7 or 8, BS 5, etc. What am I missing? It is on a tank with front and side 12 and back 10. Skimmer and fast plus upgrades

althathir
02-02-2011, 18:26
Fire Prism Squadrons, would really help eldar scale up better they struggle at 'ard boyz point levels.

Farseer SC for wraith armies, autarch SC that is more command oriented.

Nightwing fighter

Fire dragons back to str 6 meltas (maybe with lance) but Im sick of 3 squads in every list including my own ;) tbh.

Swooping hawks that don't suck.

Kresterz
02-02-2011, 18:37
We have shadow spectres for prism prism squads... but they are also heavy support o.o So I ask you, what is the point? They are more mobile, the exarch can also get a haywire launcher, they can equal a fireprism combined shot as well. The problemis that cynosure is expensive and withdraw is pretty useless as they should NEVER be used in CC...

That and not shooting in lance means 12" range... This is pretty terrible and considering that the prism can shoot 60", at least make it something better, they are heavy support, not heavy melee or even assualt.

Thats almost the samething... HOwever, re-reading what you say, if you mean squads of tanks... Then thats a different story

Shamana
02-02-2011, 19:01
Fire Prism Squadrons, would really help eldar scale up better they struggle at 'ard boyz point levels.

That would be nice, yes - the combined shots ability already presupposes cooperation.


Farseer SC for wraith armies, autarch SC that is more command oriented.

Eh, I think we can do without the latter - and about the former, I suppose they might just bring back this (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iyanna_Arienal) fair (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/f/f5/Iyanna.JPG) lass (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/b/b9/Iyanna_Arienal_art.jpg) . Her little friend can play too - maybe you could get them together like that skaven seer and his rat ogre from WHFB and the books.


Fire dragons back to str 6 meltas (maybe with lance) but Im sick of 3 squads in every list including my own ;) tbh.

Ehhh...I'd actually say no. In a world where a man-portable imperial meltagun is S8, the eldar equivalent being S6 means is just another case of "eldar uberadvanced technology" meaning "weaker than imperial tech, only with a lot of frills and gimmicks to fool you into thinking otherwise" . And I, for one, am quite annoyed with that. If you could freely choose between meltaguns, heat lances (DE codex) and flamers - all of them being different variants of the FD "short range devastation" schtick, then sure. If you are set into using an inferior weapon - and S6 lance IS inferior to S8 - then thanks, but I'd rather pay a point or two more.


Swooping hawks that don't suck.

Which either means aspects start being a bit more versatile with their weaponry, or the lasblaster gets a heck of an overhaul.

I'd actually prefer the former. Let's say each aspect has a "theme", and is given some variation in it. For example, banshees and scorpions can choose between weapon combinations that give more attacks vs those that give stronger attacks; hawks can choose between the "wing buffet" (high number of low-strength attacks, also causing disorientation/pinning etc of the foe) and the "crushing beak" (short-ranged powerful shots), spiders choose between higher-strength shots, entangling templates or some melee capability, etc.

It wouldn't necessarily change the theme of the aspects and what they do, just give you more variety in how they do it. I think a few steps in that direction may be a good thing.

althathir
02-02-2011, 20:38
We have shadow spectres for prism prism squads... but they are also heavy support o.o So I ask you, what is the point? They are more mobile, the exarch can also get a haywire launcher, they can equal a fireprism combined shot as well. The problemis that cynosure is expensive and withdraw is pretty useless as they should NEVER be used in CC...

That and not shooting in lance means 12" range... This is pretty terrible and considering that the prism can shoot 60", at least make it something better, they are heavy support, not heavy melee or even assualt.

I think your proving my point I don't expect for them to be in the next codex for the reasons you mentioned, the hornet on the other hand maybe.



Eh, I think we can do without the latter - and about the former, I suppose they might just bring back this (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iyanna_Arienal) fair (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/f/f5/Iyanna.JPG) lass (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/b/b9/Iyanna_Arienal_art.jpg) . Her little friend can play too - maybe you could get them together like that skaven seer and his rat ogre from WHFB and the books.

I would love that she would be perfect also a girl warlock or farseer model really should've already been released, to be honest the autarch SC ideal really has more to do with Yriel being more of CC character, who can lead rather than a brilliant tactician (in other words he isn't an exceptional commander compared to a regular autarch)

Ehhh...I'd actually say no. In a world where a man-portable imperial meltagun is S8, the eldar equivalent being S6 means is just another case of "eldar uberadvanced technology" meaning "weaker than imperial tech, only with a lot of frills and gimmicks to fool you into thinking otherwise" . And I, for one, am quite annoyed with that. If you could freely choose between meltaguns, heat lances (DE codex) and flamers - all of them being different variants of the FD "short range devastation" schtick, then sure. If you are set into using an inferior weapon - and S6 lance IS inferior to S8 - then thanks, but I'd rather pay a point or two more.

Thats another viable solution my main problem with dragons is that there is little reason to consider the other aspects currently so a points increase would make it less of a no brainer which would be a good thing. That said I honestly I think if they were 20 points model right now they would still be the only elites taken

Which either means aspects start being a bit more versatile with their weaponry, or the lasblaster gets a heck of an overhaul.

I'd actually prefer the former. Let's say each aspect has a "theme", and is given some variation in it. For example, banshees and scorpions can choose between weapon combinations that give more attacks vs those that give stronger attacks; hawks can choose between the "wing buffet" (high number of low-strength attacks, also causing disorientation/pinning etc of the foe) and the "crushing beak" (short-ranged powerful shots), spiders choose between higher-strength shots, entangling templates or some melee capability, etc.

It wouldn't necessarily change the theme of the aspects and what they do, just give you more variety in how they do it. I think a few steps in that direction may be a good thing.

I think this is the hardest part of eldar to get right if the aspects become too flexible it starts to defeat the purpose of them. My solution for swooping hawks would be to make the grenade pack work more like it did in second edition Hawks would gain a fly by rule where they could move 24 inches in a straight line ignoring terrain and enemy units, then target a unit that the line crosses, the grenades power would be effected by the number of models in the squad and whether or not there was an exarch.

For the other aspects I would make minor changes
banshees - exarch would gain power that allows banshees to disembark as if they were in an assault vehicle.
scorpions - would gain inflitrate for free and be able reroll outflank rolls.
shining spears - I honestly have no clue they're an awkward unit I'd probably cut them (or make them cc option for jetbikes not a seperate unit).
warp spiders - add hit and run for free.
dire avengers - allow them to regroup below 1/2 str (not ATSKNF).

Designer891
03-02-2011, 01:02
I agree with most of the stuff said.

One thing that always bothered me are spirtseers, they should have a 24" range minuim maybe even 36" range. They should also get different kinds of psychic powers that buff undead stuff only.

My only extras would be:
1. 2+/4++ save on the avatar -> fleet would be nice too since every army can run now.
2. ALL Eldar have fleet... see above (if +3 save incubi can fleet now so should all aspects)
3. BS4 on all units.. I know the guardian debate about being civilians... it's lame they should be BS4 it does nott break the game at all.. not all fluff translates OK? Why do we have to pay 2x more for weapons in armies that have BS4 and seems ones with BS3s have twin linked everything for very few points.
4. PLs all reworked.
5. All catapults to 24" range ... make Guardian ones S:3
6. D-cannon to AP1 36" range, wraith cannon to 18" AP1 (might be OP)
- Love the idea of tank squads and falcons for dedicated transports .. walkers to FA.
- Love different types of wraithguard.
- Of course we all agree reapers, hawks and spears need complete overhauls - Reapers to get EMLs for same price or down grade all can have shirken cannons.

TheLaughingGod
03-02-2011, 01:35
I agree with most of the stuff said.

One thing that always bothered me are spirtseers, they should have a 24" range minuim maybe even 36" range. They should also get different kinds of psychic powers that buff undead stuff only.

My only extras would be:
1. 2+/4++ save on the avatar -> fleet would be nice too since every army can run now.
2. ALL Eldar have fleet... see above (if +3 save incubi can fleet now so should all aspects)
3. BS4 on all units.. I know the guardian debate about being civilians... it's lame they should be BS4 it does nott break the game at all.. not all fluff translates OK? Why do we have to pay 2x more for weapons in armies that have BS4 and seems ones with BS3s have twin linked everything for very few points.
4. PLs all reworked.
5. All catapults to 24" range ... make Guardian ones S:3
6. D-cannon to AP1 36" range, wraith cannon to 18" AP1 (might be OP)
- Love the idea of tank squads and falcons for dedicated transports .. walkers to FA.
- Love different types of wraithguard.
- Of course we all agree reapers, hawks and spears need complete overhauls - Reapers to get EMLs for same price or down grade all can have shirken cannons.

24" Shuricats, Guardians can be Strength 4 without being broken, make Avengers Ap 4

Dvora
03-02-2011, 05:20
I only have two wishes. Worthwhile warlocks. And, for the love of the chaos gods, plastic wraith guard.

Sai-Lauren
03-02-2011, 09:25
@ Sai-Lauren - I'd actually be interested in the foresight being an optional upgrade to the regular farseer, especially if Eldrad isn't listed in the next codex. I think it might cost something like 15-20 points, although that would of course need a bit of playtesting to get right.

Thanks, I was worried I was going to be shouted at for it. ;)

Although I was thinking roughly 40-50 points - hence "expensive".


Ehhh...I'd actually say no. In a world where a man-portable imperial meltagun is S8, the eldar equivalent being S6 means is just another case of "eldar uberadvanced technology" meaning "weaker than imperial tech, only with a lot of frills and gimmicks to fool you into thinking otherwise" . And I, for one, am quite annoyed with that. If you could freely choose between meltaguns, heat lances (DE codex) and flamers - all of them being different variants of the FD "short range devastation" schtick, then sure. If you are set into using an inferior weapon - and S6 lance IS inferior to S8 - then thanks, but I'd rather pay a point or two more.

What about something like S6, Melta, Lance 12? Either that, or give it more shots.

Shamana
03-02-2011, 09:52
40-50? Nope. Not only would that imo be way too expensive on its own merits, but you can find it cheaper elsewhere.

Let me go back to Mr. Varro Tigurius, Ultramehreen psyker extraordinaire. He has:
- T4 W2 (1 wound less, but higher toughness and doesn't fold from a single S6 wound, so between that and the 3+ save I'm putting him around on par with farseers)
- knows all (nine) powers from the codex - farseers, unlike libbies, get to pay for each one they learn.
- casts three powers per turn (Eldrad-level psyker)
- gets his force hood included (farseers pay for RoWarding)
- has a master-crafted force weapon (and 2 base attacks)
-and has gift of prescience

This all costs 25 points more than a farseer with RoWarding, spirit stones, and all (five) powers purchased.

Exhibit two: the IG has the option of purchasing an astropath for its command squad and for a total of 30 points getting both +1 to reserves (master strategist-equivalent) and rerolling for which side outflankers come from. For another 30 points, they give their enemies the opposite of that. I think the +1/-1 also stacks if you have two astropaths / MotF, too.

Now, divination and the like are supposed to be one of the Eldar's strong sides. Their "gimmicks," if you would. If the Imperial Guard or even Space Marines can outdo them in that field for the same or less points, something is not right. This is not a matter of "whose lasgun/plasmagun/meltagun" is better - divination on the strategic level is something that is fluffwise all but exclusive to the Eldar (and Tzeentch/Lords of Change). The fact that imperials can get some form of it I can live with - but they shouldn't be better or more efficient at it, imo.

sgtspiff
03-02-2011, 09:53
Ahh a wishlist without looking into "fixing" the current codex....

A warpteleporting tank.
Even better warpteleporting Wraith(something)... (their souls are already captured).

A gigantic sunrifle (on anything that'll take it) think S4 AP 5 Heavy 20, Large blast (to many shots would just make a large beam so they need to be spread).

Shamana
03-02-2011, 10:16
20 large blasts? :wtf: Dude, not only would this take a loooong time to calculate, but I can't imagine it on anything less than a titan. What are we, trying to out-IG the IG?

Sildani
03-02-2011, 11:46
I think the +1/-1 also stacks if you have two astropaths / MotF, too.

Now, divination and the like are supposed to be one of the Eldar's strong sides. Their "gimmicks," if you would. If the Imperial Guard or even Space Marines can outdo them in that field for the same or less points, something is not right. This is not a matter of "whose lasgun/plasmagun/meltagun" is better - divination on the strategic level is something that is fluffwise all but exclusive to the Eldar (and Tzeentch/Lords of Change). The fact that imperials can get some form of it I can live with - but they shouldn't be better or more efficient at it, imo.

I think the IG FAQ said multiple Astropaths/whatever they are don't stack. Only Autarchs do.

I agree with everything else you've said.

sgtspiff
03-02-2011, 12:58
20 large blasts? :wtf: Dude, not only would this take a loooong time to calculate, but I can't imagine it on anything less than a titan. What are we, trying to out-IG the IG?

Yeah, maybe I just flung a number into the air which happened to land in the post...
But atleast you get the picture of crazy laser rain.

Shamana
03-02-2011, 13:08
Yeah, but that's how imagine the prisms doing their large area shot - just a lot of individual lasers beaming over an area (or, as TV Tropes puts it, "beam spam"). Something like what you describe would imo be the province of the Sunstorm Squadrons (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1230513a_Eldar_Datasheet_-_The_Sunstorm) in apocalypse... Has anyone tried running one of those? The local club doesn't do games over 2k, but it sounds like those babies could get sick, in a very good way :p .

Kresterz
03-02-2011, 20:18
I vote for a new weapon, Ap 2 heavy 1/2 str 7/8 BS 5 tank :) no blast but ordnance and can link like a prism

so this is anti tank while prims are both, but mostly anti-infantry

Designer891
03-02-2011, 20:27
How about psychic powers?

Seems marines are getting guys who can do 2-3 powers a turn and having much more powerful powers attack wise. Most the people I play hate when I use fortune but its not OP IMO at all. I think we need a few new ones and i think the 6" range on most of them is lame, I think guide/fortune should have at least an 18" range.

Eldar are supposed to have the best psychic powers and definitly the best defensive powers of all. There are plenty of other armies that can re-roll saves... I am thinking demons right now where a few characters give a 12" radius that allows re-roll saves.

So what do you guys think? Are we OP as it is or do we need better and more choices in powers?

Kresterz
03-02-2011, 20:36
How about psychic powers?

Seems marines are getting guys who can do 2-3 powers a turn and having much more powerful powers attack wise. Most the people I play hate when I use fortune but its not OP IMO at all. I think we need a few new ones and i think the 6" range on most of them is lame, I think guide/fortune should have at least an 18" range.

Eldar are supposed to have the best psychic powers and definitly the best defensive powers of all. There are plenty of other armies that can re-roll saves... I am thinking demons right now where a few characters give a 12" radius that allows re-roll saves.

So what do you guys think? Are we OP as it is or do we need better and more choices in powers?

We are not OP in termsof powers, what we need however, is either boosts in certain abilities and also one more power that can help move units like the avvy or something of the like. IT would help make eldar moremobileor something like that. i mean the farseers can already control the fate, so why not alsocontrol faste using time?

Hendarion
03-02-2011, 21:06
Please try to stick to the initial topic - new unit wishlisting. Expansions and not fixes to already existing stuff.

Designer891
03-02-2011, 21:27
Please try to stick to the initial topic - new unit wishlisting. Expansions and not fixes to already existing stuff.

Sorry about that just figured everyone was talking about making units better... my bad.

In that case bring back the real seer council with 1-3 farseers or at least make a mini farseer/high warlock type with 2 wounds who can be in this group.

Shamana
03-02-2011, 21:43
Well, it's kinda hard to talk about those in vacuum, but you are right - I might have forgotten some of the OP statement :) .

Anyway, what would you think of the idea of having mini-farseers - weaker seers (1-2 wounds, single or two powers, can only cast one) of which you can take several in an elite slot, like how BAs can take sangunary priests? This could tie in with the boneseer unit, as a possible "upgrade" of the seers.

mercury14
03-02-2011, 22:35
I don't think Phoenix Lords should be cheaper, just more practical to use. Especially in medium-to-large games there's too much need to take two Farseers, meaning there's no room for a Phoenix Lord.

Likewise, Eldar have a huge logjam of units in heavy support. The new Spectres aspect will never get used due to what they compete with. The same goes for Reapers. :(

Also make units with a Phoenix lord count as troops.

Designer891
03-02-2011, 23:45
A mini seer I think is needed along with more types of powers to go with the mini seer like as stated by others:

Bone Singer: tech marine type/armor buffer maybe gives a unit +1 to their armor?
Spirt Seer: wraithlord/guard buffs
High warlock: more attack type psychics like marines - shooting/blasts

Also are we the only army left who doesn't have assault ramps? For such a big CC type army I think we should have them on some kinda tank.

Vaktathi
03-02-2011, 23:49
Personally, I'd just like them to fix costs on most of the units and include the recent Forgeworld units like the Hornet and Shadow Spectres.

Maybe expand on Harlequins a bit, and include a couple Exodite units (exodite riders would be cool to reinclude) and call it good.

Kresterz
03-02-2011, 23:59
They are fielded in 1-3 heavy support,

Walker unit that has range 12", str 7 called grav. Accelerator cannons

fast, scout, front/side 11, back 10 armour

They have a anti gravitic shields that will deflect any heavy shots, those shots recrochet will fly for 2D6, roll a scatter die to determine direction. All those in range must take a moral test, if passed, they have dodged it, if fail, roll to hit. This shield also damages any ennemy units within 6" of the squad. Only once the game, they can move 18" and tankshock. When doing this, the tank shocked units cannot do a death or glory, the units must also face a roll to hit which ignores any saves with the exception of invulnerable saves. The attack of this is str 8 with AP 4


OK, that tank shockmoveis a littleover powered,but I figured, what the heck its jokes

Eumerin
04-02-2011, 01:29
Maybe expand on Harlequins a bit, and include a couple Exodite units (exodite riders would be cool to reinclude) and call it good.


I'd *KILL* to get Exodite Knights on the table...

Sildani
04-02-2011, 01:45
Bring back the real Ulthwe Strike Force ruleset. I had so much fun with that list...

Designer891
04-02-2011, 01:46
Yuk, I maybe the only one but I don't like the idea of Exodites at all... Eldar riding dragons needs to stay in fantasy IMO.

I haven't read any of the novels or anything just what has been in the Eldar codex over the years.

TheLaughingGod
04-02-2011, 02:32
Yuk, I maybe the only one but I don't like the idea of Exodites at all... Eldar riding dragons needs to stay in fantasy IMO.

I haven't read any of the novels or anything just what has been in the Eldar codex over the years.

IG Roughriders, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Librarian Dreadnoughts, Trygons.

I think we should be allowed our Dragon Knights just on principle.

Vaktathi
04-02-2011, 03:32
Exodite Knights could be made to be pretty cool as long as they take a more Dino Riders (http://www.robotvsbadger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dino20riders.jpg) spin with lots of Eldar-y cybernetics and guns, something that's as much wraithbone as living mount, and less of a Thunderwolf stance where it's just a big wolf with a derpy Space Marine stuck on top.

insectum7
04-02-2011, 03:38
Yuk, I maybe the only one but I don't like the idea of Exodites at all... Eldar riding dragons needs to stay in fantasy IMO.

I haven't read any of the novels or anything just what has been in the Eldar codex over the years.

I'd prefer to see some Exodite units over more Aspect Warriors actually. It'd make for some really unique models imo.

While we're at it, get rid of Thunderwolf Cavalry. I hate to hate, but I think they're ridiculous. Wolfy McWolferson riding Wolfie the Wolf.... bleh.

@Vakathi "Harness the poweeeerr!!"

Designer891
04-02-2011, 04:27
Id rather them make new harlequin units then even try to add exodites.... I don't think the Thunderwolf cavalry was a good idea ether. Only races I can see with monsters are Chaos, Nids and Kroot. blah :)

Eumerin
04-02-2011, 06:25
Exodite Knights could be made to be pretty cool as long as they take a more Dino Riders (http://www.robotvsbadger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dino20riders.jpg) spin with lots of Eldar-y cybernetics and guns, something that's as much wraithbone as living mount, and less of a Thunderwolf stance where it's just a big wolf with a derpy Space Marine stuck on top.

That's not an Exodite Knight.

A Knight is a construct that's roughly mid-way in size between a wraithlord and a revenant. They appeared in Epic for many years providing support to the Craftworld armies, and are the only Exodite figures that have ever had rules published by GW.

http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2131epiceldarknights-m.htm

As you can see at the link, there were a total of three different types introduced. Two were standard humanoid models, while the third was centauroid.


Humans who settled in the same regions of space during the pre-Imperium era copied the Exodites and created their own Knights. When the Imperium established contact with the human settlers, the Knights were incorporated into the Titan Legions - and have apparently been mentioned in a couple of the Black Library novels.

The Ork Stompa was originally the orkish competitor to the human and eldar knights. But the kit that was released recently is NOT the same thing. The 40K Stompa is actually about the same size (proportionally) as an Epic Ork Slasha Gargant. I'm not sure why GW named it after the much smaller mini-Gargant.

sgtspiff
04-02-2011, 09:24
That's not an Exodite Knight.


As you can see at the link, there were a total of three different types introduced. Two were standard humanoid models, while the third was centauroid.


The Ork Stompa was originally the orkish competitor to the human and eldar knights. But the kit that was released recently is NOT the same thing. The 40K Stompa is actually about the same size (proportionally) as an Epic Ork Slasha Gargant. I'm not sure why GW named it after the much smaller mini-Gargant.

Centauroid knights would be lovely.

Cause "Stompa" must be the best name in the entire 40k universe.

Sai-Lauren
04-02-2011, 10:03
Missed this first time


Well, in the eldar codex, no eldar unit should be cannon fodder. You want specialized bullet catchers, get an IG regiment or an ork klan to do it for you . BTW, what would people think of Autarchs being able to get 1-3 "special" abilities, some applied to the squad they are in and others being army-wide, kind of like what the regimental advisors do for IG? Just some examples:

What about something that is illusory - a single unit of any type that you place and move as normal, maybe even taking "casualties", but the moment it gets into base contact, it's removed.

Basically, something to distract the enemy and get into their heads, whilst minimising losses.

Then you get the opponent ignoring a unit of Banshees because they've not fired, until they suddenly charge into combat and start chopping things up. :)



Please try to stick to the initial topic - new unit wishlisting. Expansions and not fixes to already existing stuff.

I think the problem with the question "what new units do you want?" is that for the most part, the diversity of units in the Eldar army list is fine.

That's not to say things like the Shadow Spectres aren't great, and I'm seriously thinking of getting a squad :).

The real problem is that some of their equipment is underpowered and a liability (shuriken catapults and paper thin armour), and most other races get to play in what should be Eldar territory (especially around psychic powers).

Anyway, I'd personally pull the Farseer back into their original role as the Chessmaster (gotta love Tv Tropes :)) - as we have the Autarch, they don't need to be the combat heroes anymore, and make Warlocks more like the Battle Mage archetype - then with enough powers to either go offensive or defensive.

Maybe even pay points to name the Warlocks original shrine which also gives them a specific power - a Scorpion Warlock might give a unit inflitrate, Spider Warlock might allow them to relocate a unit, a Reaper one a spirit of death that affects an enemy units morale (or even just sucks the life out of them) and so on.

And I'd also love to see Exodites, but in their own Codex.

Hendarion
04-02-2011, 10:13
I think the problem with the question "what new units do you want?" is that for the most part, the diversity of units in the Eldar army list is fine.
And that's why this is about wishlisting. There are so many things one could imagine. And each Codex is growing further and further in diversity. So why not asking for the ideas or wishes of others? :angel:

Vaktathi
04-02-2011, 10:21
That's not an Exodite Knight.

A Knight is a construct that's roughly mid-way in size between a wraithlord and a revenant. They appeared in Epic for many years providing support to the Craftworld armies, and are the only Exodite figures that have ever had rules published by GW.

http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2131epiceldarknights-m.htm

As you can see at the link, there were a total of three different types introduced. Two were standard humanoid models, while the third was centauroid.
.

Sorry, was thinking of the Exodite Dragon Knights from the 2E Eldar codex.


@Vakathi "Harness the poweeeerr!!" Indeed :D

Shamana
04-02-2011, 10:51
What about something that is illusory - a single unit of any type that you place and move as normal, maybe even taking "casualties", but the moment it gets into base contact, it's removed..

Wouldn't that be something of a psychic power? It doesn't work nearly as well now that there is no leadership test to shoot at the nearest objective, but it could be a power that makes an enemy take a Ld check or be unable to shoot (because they already shot at something else :) ) . Alternatively, it could be a warlock power similar to the Veil of Tears - it shouldn't be cheap, but it could make footdar a lot more feasible.


Anyway, I'd personally pull the Farseer back into their original role as the Chessmaster (gotta love Tv Tropes :)) - as we have the Autarch, they don't need to be the combat heroes anymore, and make Warlocks more like the Battle Mage archetype - then with enough powers to either go offensive or defensive.

Well, the trick is, Farseers can be former warlocks - iirc any eldar who is lost along the path of the seer is referred to as farseer, just as any who becomes obsessed with the warrior path is an exarch. Therefore, it is quite normal that a farseer might have combat-related powers and they might be much more potent than that of a warlocks. You may argue that a farseer with eldritch storm and, say, doom (or mind war, although imo it's more of a pure application of mental power) was just that - a former warlock. They will also relish bloodshed no less than most other eldar - just because their path might suppress those emotions doesn't mean they aren't present.

As I see it, farseers are far from the only eldar that work divinations - it's just that as the best seers of the craftworld, the farseers are the only ones whose divinations can be trusted to build a battle plan on. In fact, I wouldn't be too sad if there was a seer HQ (either the vanilla farseer or something like warlock champion - kinda like the wolf guard leader from the SW codex) with slightly more combat oomph. At present, the farseer is probably the only non-SC HQ with only 1 attack - while combat monsters like the primaris psyker or the ethereal have 3.

Sai-Lauren
04-02-2011, 11:55
Wouldn't that be something of a psychic power? It doesn't work nearly as well now that there is no leadership test to shoot at the nearest objective, but it could be a power that makes an enemy take a Ld check or be unable to shoot (because they already shot at something else ) . Alternatively, it could be a warlock power similar to the Veil of Tears - it shouldn't be cheap, but it could make footdar a lot more feasible.

I was thinking more of buying your army as normal, then getting some additional fake units to put on the table and move around normally, rather than just "roll a certain score on your psychic test, enemy unit can't fire this turn".

Enemy unit shoots them, well, they're not shooting the real troops that turn. Charge into them, surprise, they're not real, and they've just popped into line of sight of the Reaper squad over there.

But you could do it with banning a unit from shooting too.



Well, the trick is, Farseers can be former warlocks - iirc any eldar who is lost along the path of the seer is referred to as farseer, just as any who becomes obsessed with the warrior path is an exarch. Therefore, it is quite normal that a farseer might have combat-related powers and they might be much more potent than that of a warlocks. You may argue that a farseer with eldritch storm and, say, doom (or mind war, although imo it's more of a pure application of mental power) was just that - a former warlock. They will also relish bloodshed no less than most other eldar - just because their path might suppress those emotions doesn't mean they aren't present.

Question then becomes whether they can afford to split their attention from battlefield divination into causing someone's brain to dribble out of their ears - Doom I'd keep, because that could reflect the Farseer picking an enemy, then manipulating their future and telepathically guiding other Eldar so that they'll be killed. The others only seem to be with the Farseer because they're too powerful to have Warlocks spamming them out all over the place, and could probably be lower powered versions for them (Eldritch Squall or Mind Wedgie perhaps? :angel: ).

There's also the old fluff that they begin to become one with the craftworld, eventually becoming statues in the Dome of Crystal Seers, they slow down, and lose their phsyical abilities, whilst increasing their mental ones.

Then again, I remember the original RT-era Eldar list, where Farseers were just that, and not combat monsters (which would really be part of the Exarch's and Autarch's roles), although you could also say that they use their divination in combat like Jedi use the force, to block and evade, then strike. :)

Hellebore
04-02-2011, 12:15
If they actually had the path history of the units affect their prowess it might mean more. Right now a guardian squad could be made up of all sorts but they end up with identical stats.

Similarly, a farseer could have been a warlock, bonesinger, seer or any other type of psyker.

If these backgrounds were like space wolf honours or something then you'd get the ability to say 'this farseer was a warlock and is thus more offensively orientated - +1WS +1I and can choose from X list of powers'.

Or exarchs who were once on different paths.

I mean, they say the autarch has been along several warrior paths, but theoretically a single exarch could have mastered every single warrior path before becoming trapped on one. Yet the autarch is still better. :eyebrows:

Similarly, a Farseer could have followed every single warrior path, then became a warlock (tied to the warrior path concept) and THEN became a farseer (who still gets his helm from the aspect shrine). But the game dumbs these intricate and important aspects of eldar identity down into non existence.

I personally would rather see the current units rebuilt in a new way, than entirely new units. The idea of the warrior aspects is very ephemeral, they're different warrior philosophies rather than hard rules. The phoenix lords and the exarchs do not use weaponry identical to their shrines which proves just this. So long as your style fits the warrior philosophy to which you adhere, you can use almost anything. There is no reason that the Path of the Destroyer MUST be represented by using a rapid firing rocket launcher whilst wearing a skull mask. Destroying can be interpreted in many different ways.

Thus the many different aspects mentioned may well be just variants on the same aspect as the most common ones. The slicing Orbs of Zandros for example could be a different interpretation of the Banshee aspect, inspired by Jain Zarr's triskele to use bladed ranged attacks (the wierdly terrifying concept could be their take on what the banshee mask represents).

If instead of 'Heavy Support - Dark Reaper Squad' you had 'Aspect of the Destroyer Squad' in which were several different weapon options and skills to represent several different shrines of the same aspect, you not only increase the number of units without actually increasing the page count, you also add more depth the background, get to release more models and can make a multitude of units that fulfil similar but distinct roles in the army.

If they can release 20 different vehicles in the imperial guard army all with slightly different weaponry, then having 3 different versions of the Aspect of the Stalker/Slayer/Destroyer or whatever is hardly difficult.

Not adding 10 new entries into the codex is also an advantage.

As an example, let's take the Striking Scorpions. You can swap the squad's weapons to represent a shrine that focuses on massive strength to kill the foe, with chainglaives and shuriken manibles. Or you can swap them for dual chain blades, small daggers used to deliver multiple strikes at once in silence, sacrificing strength for speed. The unit could then take Withdrawl towards the nearest cover to represent them melting back into the shadows.


Hellebore

Leonathion
04-02-2011, 12:50
- New Avatar model
- New plastic Wraithguard
- Harlequin Troupe Leader as HQ with more option
- Options for Warlocks to join aspects (like previous statements)
- New Warpspider models
- Portable vehicle like wraithgate (big)
- An option for Firedragons, Banshees and Scorpions to go Troop
- Assault ramps on Waveserpents
- Plastic Revenant (like the stompa)
- New jetbikes

FORGEWORLD
- That Warlock Titan please
- Slizing Orbs
- Star Eagles
- Bonesinger
- Some nice special characters, maybe 2
- Eldar Pirates (on path of the outcast)
- Exodite riders

APOCALYPSE DATA SHEETS
- Combination of all eldar armies in one, like the good old days, perhaps with mandatory harlies

Gazak Blacktoof
04-02-2011, 13:14
Whilst the current version of aspect warriors doesn't allow lots of different weapon options I think that you'd struggle to prevent massive overlaps between the aspects if you allowed them to do so.

If power armoured guys with rocket launchers doesn't adequately represnt "aspect of the destroyer", what does? Should they be allowed melta guns to destroy the enemy at close range? What then happens to fire dragons?

Even if you kept reapers as a long ranged unit by allowing them to take a different heavy weapon, shuriken cannons for example (so that they more closely match their phoenix lord), doesn't that then bring them too close to stepping on the toes of the dire avengers?

I don't have a problem with it in principal as it fits the background but I'm not sure that it would bring anything to the game, though I like your examples for the scorpions. I think you'd need a finalised list with several choices for each aspect before you could see if overlaps could be avoided. What I wouldn't want is minute adjustments to characters, I don't like upgrades that aren't modelled on as they simply confuse your opponent.

Hellebore
04-02-2011, 13:23
Whilst the current version of aspect warriors doesn't allow lots of different weapon options I think that you'd struggle to prevent massive overlaps between the aspects if you allowed them to do so.

If power armoured guys with rocket launchers doesn't adequately represnt "aspect of the destroyer", what does? Should they be allowed melta guns to destroy the enemy at close range? What then happens to fire dragons?

Even if you kept reapers as a long ranged unit by allowing them to take a different heavy weapon, shuriken cannons for example (so that they more closely match their phoenix lord), doesn't that then bring them too close to stepping on the toes of the dire avengers?

I don't have a problem with it in principal as it fits the background but I'm not sure that it would bring anything to the game, though I like your examples for the scorpions. I think you'd need a finalised list with several choices for each aspect before you could see if overlaps could be avoided. What I wouldn't want is minute adjustments to characters, I don't like upgrades that aren't modelled on as they simply confuse your opponent.

This sort of thing will happen if you add ostensibly different aspect squads to the army anyway. the shadow spectres made by forgeworld are the bastard children of fire dragons and dark reapers and suck.

The game doesn't have enough granularity to support many distinctively different playing styles. There are currently 8 different aspects and even they can't help but tread on each other's toes because of this. That or you end up with schizophrenic units that have wildly opposing abilities in order to invent a whole new 'aspect' of fighting.

Currently the different marine codicies list several very similar but slightly different units that all make up a single army.

I really don't see much of a problem if they can do that.

Adding new aspects will just get more and more forced, so rather than do that, you can simply say that your new aspect is represented by the Aspect of the Hawk variant that uses multiple grenade packs and laser mines.

The thing is, if you add an entirely separate unit entry it needs to justify its existence or it might as well not be there. The FW shadow spectres could easily have been a brightlance toting Destroyer aspect, but they tried to make them different and in the process produced some of the dumbest rules I've ever seen.

Instead if you accept that the current 8 aspects are different enough to be separate from one another and then just create slight variations on those, you don't have to forcibly insert new aspects into the army list, you just say that the aspect is one of the variants.

EDIT: Basically what I'm saying is that there isn't enough distinction in the game to allow for more totally separate aspects to exist, so rather than try and force it, it would be easier and better to create a few different flavours of each aspect (which would be as simple as saying 'the unit may replace X weapons with Y weapons for Z points) and funnel all new aspect variants through those concepts. Otherwise you just get silly units like the shadow spectres where you try and foce differences in units by creating pointlessly convoluted rules to generate effects that hide the underlying inferiority of the unit behind a facade of complexity.

Hellebore

Sai-Lauren
04-02-2011, 13:58
If they actually had the path history of the units affect their prowess it might mean more. Right now a guardian squad could be made up of all sorts but they end up with identical stats.

Similarly, a farseer could have been a warlock, bonesinger, seer or any other type of psyker.

If these backgrounds were like space wolf honours or something then you'd get the ability to say 'this farseer was a warlock and is thus more offensively orientated - +1WS +1I and can choose from X list of powers'.

Or exarchs who were once on different paths.

I think for most units, that wouldn't be applicable, IIRC, the paths are designed so that they learn about it whilst in the path, then lock that knowledge away when they go to the next path, although certain aspects of it will seep across into their new path.

For the Autarch and Farseer, maybe the honours idea would work, and the Warlock Aspect power I suggested earlier might help for them.

If you start getting into veteran guardians with exarch powers and so on, it'll just get too much IMO.



If instead of 'Heavy Support - Dark Reaper Squad' you had 'Aspect of the Destroyer Squad' in which were several different weapon options and skills to represent several different shrines of the same aspect, you not only increase the number of units without actually increasing the page count, you also add more depth the background, get to release more models and can make a multitude of units that fulfil similar but distinct roles in the army.

Hmm, interesting. So you'd have HS-Aspect of the Destroyer, with Dark Reaper, Shadow Spectre and anything else they wanted to add.

Although you might have to cross boundaries as Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders (both Elites) might also fit in there, and Banshees and Hawks might go together as well (Elite and FS).

With the WFB Core/Special/Rare, it'd be a lot easier.



As an example, let's take the Striking Scorpions. You can swap the squad's weapons to represent a shrine that focuses on massive strength to kill the foe, with chainglaives and shuriken manibles. Or you can swap them for dual chain blades, small daggers used to deliver multiple strikes at once in silence, sacrificing strength for speed. The unit could then take Withdrawl towards the nearest cover to represent them melting back into the shadows.

That might be a better way - keeping the generic unit type, but changing the way they fight - Banshees armed with mini-vibro cannon for ranged use of the masks, Hawks with talons to swoop in, grab and abduct enemies (then drop them from a couple of hundred feet :)), and so on.

Hellebore
04-02-2011, 14:30
That might be a better way - keeping the generic unit type, but changing the way they fight - Banshees armed with mini-vibro cannon for ranged use of the masks, Hawks with talons to swoop in, grab and abduct enemies (then drop them from a couple of hundred feet :)), and so on.

Yes that's exactly what I mean. Obviously the currently listed aspects - striking scorpions, dark reapers, etc are the most common representations of that aspect of khaine and would be the default choice in the entry. Then as simple as having one extra option line in the entry you can swap their theme for one of two different sets each focusing on a different theme within that aspect.

So the two I gave as examples were strength and speed. These are represented by equipment changes and perhaps unit special rule replacements and/or exarch power replacements (like the aforementioned withdrawal to represent the speed scorpions disappearing back into cover).

Hellebore

Kal Taron
04-02-2011, 15:33
- get rid of the Autarch in its current form. The whole path of command thing is crap IMO.
- give us Menshad-Korum instead
- Phoenix Lords for the missing aspects
- split Farseers and Warlocks into two different types of Psyker that have both a trapped and non-trapped version, some for Spiritseers and Bonesingers
- Exarchs as HQ with matching stats and for each Aspect unit you may take an Exarch of that Aspect that doesn't take up a slot. Exarchs are IC but may only join units of their aspect
- Exarchs may take up to 4 different powers that improve their fighting abilities
- Aspects may take up to 2 of 4 different powers that represent the teachings of their shrine. Weapon options for Aspects would be really cool indeed. Might make balancing difficult though.
- New type of Guardian with Lasblaster. Options depend on number of Guardians in the unit. Lasblaster = platform, ShuriCat = Melter/Flamer/other close range stuff, CCW and Pistol = Power Weapon/Fist/other CC weapons
- CC oriented Wraith Guard
- new Falcon variants

AlexHolker
04-02-2011, 19:10
I was thinking more of buying your army as normal, then getting some additional fake units to put on the table and move around normally, rather than just "roll a certain score on your psychic test, enemy unit can't fire this turn".
This is the kind of thing that works in a computer game but not on the tabletop. It's just too open to shell game shenanigans.

brightblade
04-02-2011, 19:52
Menshad Korum! I had totally forgotten...

Awesome. I definitely would like Exarchs getting buffed a bit to reflect their fluff. Interesting to see how many people want a cc wraithguard...

TheRatsInTheWalls
04-02-2011, 20:48
...

Archites yes, although even for them being able to outfence the likes of Granny Jenn (a.k.a "Jain-Zar") tends to go a bit too far. Yet archons are constantly described as machinators, schemers, politicians of sorts - their combat prowess is almost added as an afterthought. While they would probably be a cut above the average kabalite, their power depends on intrigue, maneuvering and leadership - it's perfectly fine for them to maintain their position by having someone else kill the challengers, and iirc . Now, granted, I haven't read the new codex fluff on the topic - I just read the unit descriptions - but I wouldn't be surprised if a SM chapter master has more combat experience and training than the average archon.

I will grant that an Archon would have no problem having an underling do the killing, but they also live in an environment where others feel the same way. Assassination attempts must be extremely common in Dark Eldar society, and any Archon who would actually trust his bodyguards to defend him probably isn't going to last long. They also had to rise to a point of supremacy in the ultra-violent mofia family that is a kabal. They may not be as good as Phoenix Lords, but they must certainly be better than Chapter Masters (who don't have to constantly defend themselves from subordinates as well as enemies). The Phoenix Lords should be improved, not the other way around.


...

What about something that is illusory - a single unit of any type that you place and move as normal, maybe even taking "casualties", but the moment it gets into base contact, it's removed.

...

Maybe even pay points to name the Warlocks original shrine which also gives them a specific power - a Scorpion Warlock might give a unit inflitrate, Spider Warlock might allow them to relocate a unit, a Reaper one a spirit of death that affects an enemy units morale (or even just sucks the life out of them) and so on.
...

I like these ideas although I have some doubts about how the former could be applied in a balanced way. There would need to be some way of indicating the false unit consistently, which means the opponent would basically have to know.
The problem with Warlocks using their earlier aspect selves is that they lock out those personalities when they shed their shrine's masks. I doubt enough bleeds through to justify this type of thing (but see below). Perhaps if a couple of fluff lines were added to allow the intentional blending of paths such that a Scorpion could remain on his path while adding a bit of the Witch Path to become a Scorpion-Warlock. Such a model would have to be a unit upgrade however.


...

Currently the different marine codicies list several very similar but slightly different units that all make up a single army.

...

EDIT: Basically what I'm saying is that there isn't enough distinction in the game to allow for more totally separate aspects to exist, so rather than try and force it, it would be easier and better to create a few different flavours of each aspect (which would be as simple as saying 'the unit may replace X weapons with Y weapons for Z points) and funnel all new aspect variants through those concepts. Otherwise you just get silly units like the shadow spectres where you try and foce differences in units by creating pointlessly convoluted rules to generate effects that hide the underlying inferiority of the unit behind a facade of complexity.

Hellebore

Lets not go looking to Marines for our Eldar ideas. Marines are supposed to be a tactically flexible force with each unit capable of performing multiple roles if necessary. Eldar are supposed to be ultra-specialized, and thus need to rely on integrated support. I am personally very fond of this distinction and would like to see it maintained.
That said, I do like your idea for variation on individual aspect's themes to a certain extent. The current weapon options on aspects do seem strangely limited when you look at Exarchs and Phoenix Lords. If some variation could be added without eliminating the ultra-specialized feel of the army, then I'd be all for it.


So here's an idea I've been toying with for a while: How about an Eldar Paragon as a new HQ choice? Basically such a character has so perfected the discipline of The Paths that he can either switch between his different selves at will (Dollhouse Echo style) or simply allow them to blend together without fear of the chaotic mania that provokes in lesser Eldar. The Paragon would probably replace the Autarch entry as the combat/leader, and have limited access to options from all the paths in the book. (This idea does borrow a little bit from the implications the Autarch fluff, but takes it to it's logical conclusion). The character could then be used to represent aspect-Warlocks, current Autarchs, and the intended ultra-Eldar. Of course such a choice would either be expensive or overpowered, but I believe it would be workable. The Exarchs and Farseers would retain their more powerful specializations as Eldar lost on their path, while the Paragon would be limited to the basic options of those Eldar who only temporarily follow a path, but in combination. There are also the kit/conversion opportunities to consider.

TheRatsInTheWalls
04-02-2011, 20:54
Also, what would be the point of making Exarchs HQ choices? I don't see how that would add anything that keeping them unit upgrades while improving the stats and options would not. Warlocks and Exarchs are less irritatingly complicated as unit upgrades. I did not enjoy the notational issues involved in splitting Warlocks off back in 3rd ed. and would not like to see them return. (Yes I know that wasn't such a big deal, but it still wasn't a better system than what we have now.)

Designer891
04-02-2011, 21:01
Menshad Korum! I had totally forgotten...

Awesome. I definitely would like Exarchs getting buffed a bit to reflect their fluff. Interesting to see how many people want a cc wraithguard...

Well a 200+pt squad of wraithguard get caught in CC quite often and once they are they are stuck they are in CC the rest of the game even against an IG squad.

If we do get a CC wraithguard I think we still need to add a different weapon options for the shooty type wraithguard we have now..or options for other weapons/warlock who can actually get a power weapon/more attacks. A 12" wrathcannon is kinda lame cause you just get charged if you play against a good player. We can just take 2x as many fire dragons which will do way more damage to a tank I would take 5 melta guns over 5 wraithcannons any day.

Only time wraith cannons see better is vs a monolith type which I am never concerned with.

TheLaughingGod
04-02-2011, 21:21
I think before we talk about making new units we need to realize that there are two common misconceptions about how the eldar work.

A) Eldar are a "glass cannon" army
B) Eldar are ultra-specialized

Neither of these are true or ever HAVE been true.
Exhibit A) Eldar have better armor saves, tougher vehicles and higher toughness monsters than the majority of other armies. Glass cannon myth: Busted.
B) Eldar have access to a wide variety of heavy weapons, vehicles and powers for many situations and enemies. Even Exarchs have options for powers and weapons that allow Aspects to function entirely differently than their base weapons would suggest. Specialization myth: Busted.

If we could proceed from the idea that they are highly skilled, technologically advanced, supernatural and mystical elite warriors, we'd have a much better idea how to design new units for them.

Kresterz
04-02-2011, 21:29
I think a change in weapons insteadof justthe exarch is a great idea, and so is adding more fluff for the paths, that also means possibly more ways to incorporate that into eldar army? I also think it should not be guardians driving war machines... I mean, does the U.S. army go out and draft civilians to drive f17's? Or even allow them access to tanks? No! They are trained in camp and given standard guns...

Therefore, why don't Eldar make a path of vehicles? Sort of like, path of vaul's etc? That way, we could boost BS on tanksand Ws on walkers, (which would boost this: :D;) [not like I want tomake them more OP:shifty::evilgrin:]



They are fielded in 1-3 heavy support,

Walker unit that has range 12", str 7 called grav. Accelerator cannons

fast, scout, front/side 11, back 10 armour

They have a anti gravitic shields that will deflect any heavy shots, those shots recrochet will fly for 2D6, roll a scatter die to determine direction. All those in range must take a moral test, if passed, they have dodged it, if fail, roll to hit. This shield also damages any ennemy units within 6" of the squad. Only once the game, they can move 18" and tankshock. When doing this, the tank shocked units cannot do a death or glory, the units must also face a roll to hit which ignores any saves with the exception of invulnerable saves. The attack of this is str 8 with AP 4


OK, that tank shockmoveis a littleover powered,but I figured, what the heck its jokes )

TheLaughingGod
04-02-2011, 21:36
I think a change in weapons insteadof justthe exarch is a great idea, and so is adding more fluff for the paths, that also means possibly more ways to incorporate that into eldar army? I also think it should not be guardians driving war machines... I mean, does the U.S. army go out and draft civilians to drive f17's? Or even allow them access to tanks? No! They are trained in camp and given standard guns...
...what is an F17? :wtf:

Also, Eldar Guardians, as if I needed to say this AGAIN. Are trained at least to the level of your average guardsman. They are actually trained soldiers. Just because they spend most of their time as civilians does not make them green or inexperienced. They are actually well trained reserve soldiers and accomplished pilots, gunners and vehicle commanders.



Therefore, why don't Eldar make a path of vehicles? Sort of like, path of vaul's etc? That way, we could boost BS on tanksand Ws on walkers, (which would boost this: :D;) [not like I want tomake them more OP:shifty::evilgrin:]
Eldar. OP? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA *snort* HAHAH. Wow. I needed a good laugh.

TheRatsInTheWalls
04-02-2011, 21:40
...
B) Eldar have access to a wide variety of heavy weapons, vehicles and powers for many situations and enemies. Even Exarchs have options for powers and weapons that allow Aspects to function entirely differently than their base weapons would suggest. Specialization myth: Busted.
...

Many comments issued by GW have described the army as such, which at least implies that they are intended to be ultra-specialized. Eldar units also do usually work better when synchronized with other units and equipped for specialized roles and have since at least 3rd ed. (not as much in this edition, but still somewhat). While Exarchs do provide a little versatility to Aspect Warriors (the Eldar's main military force), the squads themselves do still focus on performing a single role very efficiently. The other choices (Weapons, vehicles, and powers) do allow Eldar to cover a wide variety of situations, but how often do you put different types of options in the same unit? Farseers are usually given powers to support specific units in an army. Heavy weapons are selected based on what type of enemy the unit will be sent to wipe out. Warlock and Exarch powers are only purchased to supplement or allow for a specific plan with the squad they are purchased for. The only truly versatile units are Dire Avengers and Warwalkers, but even these units usually see specialization toward one role.
This has been a defining trait of the army for years, why discard it now?


I do agree with you on the glass-cannon issue though.

Designer891
04-02-2011, 21:42
I think before we talk about making new units we need to realize that there are two common misconceptions about how the eldar work.

A) Eldar are a "glass cannon" army
B) Eldar are ultra-specialized
.\

I agree but in order for that too happen our units need to have better weapons or a real use for each unit (swooping hawks, reapers, shinning spears...I think wraithguard fall here too).

Spiders actually don't follow the "glass cannon" rule and nether do wraith constructs (there are probably more units as well I can't think of right now) I think that "glass cannon" role is more the DE theme now. I think Eldar should be B) ultra specialized high point cost - what they were supposed to be originally I believe.

TheLaughingGod
04-02-2011, 21:46
I agree but in order for that too happen our units need to have better weapons or a real use for each unit (swooping hawks, reapers, shinning spears...I think wraithguard fall here too).

Spiders actually don't follow the "glass cannon" rule and nether do wraith constructs (there are probably more units as well I can't think of right now) I think that "glass cannon" role is more the DE theme now. I think Eldar should be B) ultra specialized high point cost - what they were supposed to be originally I believe.

Well, they never were glass cannons. Neither were they ultra-specialized. Ritualized, maybe. But ultra-specialized. No. There's always been flexibility inherent in their build. They have always been intended to work well in concert, but they weren't supposed to just fall apart if left unsupported.

Lots of people get this wrong, so they propose horribly unbalanced ideas which would make Eldar ONLY work in very specific situations and only with the exact right combination of units, but die horribly otherwise. This is completely against the theme of the army and the lore.

But of course, not everyone understands that. They are really a synergistic smallish elite army. They do what they do REALLY well and everything else reasonably, when combined with a couple other good choices they do basically everything REALLY well.

Eumerin
04-02-2011, 22:28
...what is an F17? :wtf:


I'm guessing that it's a stablemate to the well-known MiG-28.

;)

Sir_Turalyon
04-02-2011, 22:42
A non-vehicle, not-character unit that was not covered in 2nd Edition Codex would be great. That was the last time the army had an idea behind it, since then it was rewritten with more attention to what units rules were like before, and less to their battlefield role. A new Aspect with no dead weight of old rules at all would be interesting; I don't think we've seen any of these since Shining Spears (who, IIRC, had 2nd ed rules too, just no models). The old units should be rewritten with less attention to baggage of post-3rd ed rules and more to their intended effect in 5th, like Codex:Imperial Guard or Dark Eldar.

The shuriken catapult some attention, it's lacks of purpose illustrates state of the army. They used to be better storm bolters, then short ranged but rapid firing, before ending as just short ranged. I admit I have no idea how to improve it without turning it to monster it was in 2nd; perhaps making them assault 1 or heavy 2, same way as sonic blasters, with range of 18 or even 24"?

My personal preference is keeping them as they are and giving lasblasters to Guardians, as free alternative to catapults. Now that Eldar lasgun has been redesigned into something workable for Swooping Hawks, it would be good to give it to unit they work on, and one that originaly used them. The alternatives of short ranged powerful fire support and long ranged light firefights, both mobile and with high rate of fire, should bring some purposey to the unit that really needs it.

Dr.Clock
04-02-2011, 22:50
New units? I think a few decent one's have been mentioned: Menshad Korum and CC wraith-constructs are definitely at the top.

I think a good way to think about the potential in the Eldar list is to look at the traditional craftworld variations and make sure they all run reasonably well.

So, in lieu of this, some food for thought on possible improvements to help effectively render some of the old craftworlds.

Ulthwe: Guardians. Some people run Black Guardians as DA. I say nix to this.

The allure of the guardian squad is the allure of the SM and IG plattoon together in one unit: flexible wargear that's beyond the capabilities of the Guard, plenty of bodies and an eldar's natural speed.

My solution: increase unit flexibility by introducing some mechanic akin to Combat Squads / platoon-style unit make-up.

Have the unit start at ten and and give us more the option of adding a single special-weapon squad (5 guys, 2 specials or heavy squad (6 guys, weapon platform) outside the FOC. These units may also blob-up with the main unit for serious heavy fire-power or burny-storm-goodness. I run 16-man guardian squads as it is - sinking another 20 points in for a couple flamers in my SL units would be a huuuuuge help in keeping those units responsive to deep-strikers/people who get through the line etc. Dual star-cannon squads would actually be pretty cool.

These units could be expensive, but will create some more interesting mechanics in the pre-game (to blob or not).

[Ulthwe also have seers: warlocks as an elite-choice, 1-3 as 2W ICs]

Alaitoc: Rangers. A hard one to be sure. The ranger rules need to improve. Having some effect on other scouts/infiltrators might be cool. Effective boobytrap upgrades to help guard blind-spots or delay the enemy (tanglefoot).

Iyanden: afore-mentioned CC-guard and ability to take second wraith-sword on Lord for additional attack. Possible HQ super-wraith (4W, two heavy weapons, sword).

Biel-tan: Aspects

Menshad Korum is 1-3 elite choice ICs with 2W, T4, Eternal Warrior, benefit from any aspect's powers they are joined with, vast wargear possibilities. This unit is basically there to provide the possible tipping-point assault guy to buff assault and defensive units or try and snipe/tie-up blade-storm survivors. Somewhere between/above Death-cult assassins/Lone Wolves/BA elite chaplains

Autarch: Allow access to single exarch-level weapon that provides the ability to take a single unit of that type to be chosen as troops.

These two together can give you crazy-specialized lists with more flexibility not along the lines of individual units, but in organizational flexibility and granular IC-infantry synergy.

Saim-hann: jetbikes

It's been said: fold vypers into 2w jetbike unit upgrades or as separate unit - retain cannon upgrade so that it actually makes sense. Decent shining spears (also benefit from Autarch's ability above). Hornet in FA.

Mmmmm... wishlisting.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

AlexHolker
04-02-2011, 22:53
The shuriken catapult some attention, it's lacks of purpose illustrates state of the army. They used to be better storm bolters, then short ranged but rapid firing, before ending as just short ranged. I admit I have no idea how to improve it without turning it to monster it was in 2nd; perhaps making them assault 1 or heavy 2, same way as sonic blasters, with range of 18 or even 24"?
I say they should be turned back into a monster. Or at least 18" Assault 2.

Hellebore
05-02-2011, 00:44
Lets not go looking to Marines for our Eldar ideas. Marines are supposed to be a tactically flexible force with each unit capable of performing multiple roles if necessary. Eldar are supposed to be ultra-specialized, and thus need to rely on integrated support. I am personally very fond of this distinction and would like to see it maintained.
That said, I do like your idea for variation on individual aspect's themes to a certain extent. The current weapon options on aspects do seem strangely limited when you look at Exarchs and Phoenix Lords. If some variation could be added without eliminating the ultra-specialized feel of the army, then I'd be all for it.


I wasn't looking at marines for ideas so much as using them as an example that shows that similar units already exist in the game (and marines aren't the only army that has this) and they still work so having variations on one entry isn't really unprecedented. GW has just created wholely separate entries instead of making them variants.

It also fits in with the way new aspects are supposed to be created and exarchs teach their students. Each has their own style with its own emphasis. Some exarchs also use different weapon types that are at odds with their shrine's own weaponry, indicating that their own personal style is not necessarily the normal style for that aspect. And new aspects don't just pop out of thin air. They'd need to be founded by someone and there is no mention of new Temple of the Asur's popping up to generate new masters of new aspects. Which, although it's never said, infers to me that these new aspects are actually started by exarchs or aspect warriors from preexisting aspects that develop their own fighting style in a different direction to the point where it's no longer their original shrine's style.

It is said that shrines are started by Exarchs and you can't become an exarch of a non existing aspect (the only case of this happening was the origin of the aspects themselves with the first exarchs but they had Asurmen as a teacher), so it would make sense to me that an exarch of a preexisting aspect may uninentionally diverge in their fighting style given enough time and create an entirely new aspect.

But because it's only diverging from within an already existing aspect it isn't a wholy separate one but a different way of doing the same thing. Hence my idea that the wierd aspects that have been mentioned (slicing orbs and shadow spectres) are actually just offshoots of the original school and still follow the same warrior path just expressed differently.

IMO that would give the aspects a far greater 'kung fu school' feel where new schools pop up based on older ones.

It also has the other advantages of not adding 10 new units to the eldar army list (which is already pretty massive) and giving the subtleties of the eldar paths and psychologies more presence in the game.

Hellebore

Eumerin
05-02-2011, 01:57
I admit I have no idea how to improve it without turning it to monster it was in 2nd

To which I say, "What's the issue with turning them back into monsters?"

So long as the weapon costs the right amount, I don't see that there's an issue.

Squallish
05-02-2011, 02:12
I would like to see "small" War Walker squadrons, using an interesting system within the rules.

Think Wraithguard sized walkers on Terminator bases, manned by Guardians. Each suit comes with a single shuricannon and the following Stat line:

WS 3, BS 3, S4, I4, A1, FA 8, SA 8, RA 8

It uses lower AV to make them function like infantry in terms of "wounding", but their save comes in the form of the damage table (4+ you're dead, 1-3 you're weakened for a turn).

Make them like 15-20pts/model, and a Troops choice.

Raibaru
05-02-2011, 02:33
An assault vehicle.

Allowing slow and purposeful units (wraithguard, thousand sons) to shoot their ranged weapons in close combat.

BS 4 on vehicles and platforms.

Fleet on scorpions.

6+ invuln on banshees.

Brettila
05-02-2011, 02:57
How about just a simple change? Make an Autarch cause aspect squads to be scoring. It makes Biel-Tan viable again (I'm sorry, but relying upon Dire Avengers is pretty tenuous), and gives one a reason to play an Autarch. Right now they are more than 100 points of near uselessness.

Hendarion
05-02-2011, 07:39
Please try to stick to the initial topic.


... and now I have to get offtopic a bit myself:


Exhibit A) Eldar have better armor saves, tougher vehicles and higher toughness monsters than the majority of other armies. Glass cannon myth: Busted.
Simply not true. Never had been true and probably never will be. You are taking some examples from the army-list and compare them to others like:
- Rhino vs. Falcon
- Scorpions vs. FireWarriors

Now we could turn this upside down:
- Devilfish vs. Falcon
- LandRaider vs. Falcon
- Guardians vs. FireWarriors
- Banshees vs. Sisters of Battle
- Scorpions vs. Terminators
- Serpent vs. Leman Russ
- and so on...

Exaggeration and wishlisting: Busted.

You can't take just some examples and say that this is an overall relation. That simply isn't true.
Go make a list of the "majority of other armies" and an overall ratio of the units they include and the AV or armour saves they got. The result might shock you. Or maybe the "majority" you are talking about are only IG-infantry and Space Marine light transport vehicles?
I don't wanna say that Eldar do not have some tough stuff, they indeed do. But they do not outclass the "majority" of other armies when it comes to armour saves or vehicle armour value. Eldar ever since had been mentioned to "sacrifice high armours to increase their speed" not to mention that they "supposedly" refuse to use higher armour values, as they have themselves enough ways to counter it. (although the latter sounds dumb... I'll leave my cevlar at home when I go battle medieval archers? Why should I? Maybe I can counter cevlar, but hell, THEY can't)

TheRatsInTheWalls
05-02-2011, 07:47
I wasn't looking at marines for ideas so much as using them as an example that shows that similar units already exist in the game (and marines aren't the only army that has this) and they still work so having variations on one entry isn't really unprecedented. GW has just created wholely separate entries instead of making them variants.
...

You have me convinced. This is a pretty good idea if done with some serious consideration. I don't really think there needs to be new aspects, but I'm still sold on aspect variation.


I would like to see "small" War Walker squadrons, using an interesting system within the rules.

Think Wraithguard sized walkers on Terminator bases, manned by Guardians. Each suit comes with a single shuricannon and the following Stat line:

WS 3, BS 3, S4, I4, A1, FA 8, SA 8, RA 8

It uses lower AV to make them function like infantry in terms of "wounding", but their save comes in the form of the damage table (4+ you're dead, 1-3 you're weakened for a turn).

Make them like 15-20pts/model, and a Troops choice.

An interesting idea. There is the issue of the Main Rule Book saying that 10 is the minimum armor value, but that's basically a bookkeeping hiccup and the unit would still work. Would these walkers still scout? How about weapon upgrades; would it be 1/unit or 1/walker? Why not use the usual damage table?



So, how about other Eldar on The Path of the Outcast? How could we make that work?

Sir_Turalyon
05-02-2011, 11:03
To which I say, "What's the issue with turning them back into monsters?"

So long as the weapon costs the right amount, I don't see that there's an issue.


The issue is, they are carried by T3 Sv5+ Guardians. We would get a true glasscannon unit with survivalibity of Guardsmen but firepower of Terminators / Noice Marines. It would be hard to balance their point values; they'd be dieing to easily for their points, have too much firepower for their points, or both with "right" price. Neither makes a good basic Troop choice, and breaking the basic Troop choice further won't help the army. Bear in mind the Guardians are already expansive for their survivability.

I again dare saying that free lasblasters (S3 AP 5 24" assault 2) option is the way.

Squallish
05-02-2011, 11:34
An interesting idea. There is the issue of the Main Rule Book saying that 10 is the minimum armor value, but that's basically a bookkeeping hiccup and the unit would still work. Would these walkers still scout? How about weapon upgrades; would it be 1/unit or 1/walker? Why not use the usual damage table?

I think codex exception to the minimum AV rule in the BRB could work, especially in a new book near an edition change, which we'll likely see again with Codex Eldar.

Scout would probably be available, yes. Probably have 1 walker per X able to upgrade their weapons. It would use the usuall damage table, I was just showing how the damage table as it exists kind of works like a 4+ Save, but if you "pass", you are still somewhat crippled.

Kresterz
05-02-2011, 17:02
I think we should get a vehicle that can go through the warp like spiders can...and make it a transport with low AV and fast speed with a basic Tl shurkicannon?

Hendarion
05-02-2011, 19:52
That would be very unfluffy. Warp-Spiders are already unfluffy. Eldar have warp-engines, but they avoid them whenever possible.

Vaktathi
05-02-2011, 20:14
That would be very unfluffy. Warp-Spiders are already unfluffy. Eldar have warp-engines, but they avoid them whenever possible.How are Warp Spiders unfluffy? They've had their fluff for almost two decades now relatively unchanged, as long as most of the other Eldar stuff.

Hendarion
05-02-2011, 20:38
Yea, of course. But it doesn't fit every other fluff which speaks about how carefully and rarely Eldar are using warp-drives and how the seers utilize runes to access warp energies.
How exactly does a warrior fit in there, a warrior that teleports directly into and out of the warp? Actually it doesn't in my eyes.
Both things imo contradict each other. But it isn't my choice, GW invented it ;)

theJ
05-02-2011, 20:49
@Hendarion: The "Aspect of the Spider" is the "aspect of risking anything to gain a victory". The Eldar, as always, like making their points clear. When they say "risk anything", they don't come to a fight with a gets hot weapon or with inferior armour - They come THROUGH HELL and jumps straight into the middle of the enemy army before blasting anything that moves (as well as some stuff that doesn't move) before jumping back into hell again. Note; "hell" is a fairly accurate way to describe the warp :P

In fact, I don't think their rules are quite crazy enough... :p

It's quite fluffy once you manage to wrap your head around it. It's just a bit hard to understand at first.

Hendarion
05-02-2011, 20:52
@Hendarion: The "Aspect of the Spider" is the "aspect of risking anything to gain a victory".
Is it? From where is that taken? Or you're making some kind of a joke?

theJ
05-02-2011, 20:59
Is it? From where is that taken? Or you're making some kind of a joke?

I don't think it's the exact wording, but no, it's no joke.

I thought it was mentioned in the codex, but after looking through it just now it is merely said they are the bravest of the aspect warriors because they risk not only their lives but also their souls...

so... I'm fairly sure I've got some sort of source laying around somewhere, I just can't find it. Feel free to disbelieve me if you'd like, as it doesn't seem like I'll be able to really prove it.

Sildani
05-02-2011, 22:14
@Hendarion: The "Aspect of the Spider" is the "aspect of risking anything to gain a victory". The Eldar, as always, like making their points clear. When they say "risk anything", they don't come to a fight with a gets hot weapon or with inferior armour - They come THROUGH HELL and jumps straight into the middle of the enemy army before blasting anything that moves (as well as some stuff that doesn't move) before jumping back into hell again. Note; "hell" is a fairly accurate way to describe the warp :P

In fact, I don't think their rules are quite crazy enough... :p

It's quite fluffy once you manage to wrap your head around it. It's just a bit hard to understand at first.

In William King's Farseer novel, the Eldar word for the Warp does translate into Hell. So there's that going for you.

SeaSwift
05-02-2011, 22:19
Is it? From where is that taken? Or you're making some kind of a joke?

It's in Path of the Warrior, IIRC. They make a special point of the Warp Spiders being batshit crazy for even trying warp jumps like they do.

Bubble Ghost
05-02-2011, 22:35
Not so much a new Eldar unit, as a rule that would in effect turn Dire Avengers and Guardians into new units without actually changing them at all. I'd like to see a slightly tweaked version of Fleet in a new Eldar book, which could be used as the new Fleet USR in any new edition of the rulebook. It would be something like this:


If the unit shoots with no weapons other than pistols or assault weapons in the shooting phase, it can then also make a Run move afterwards, rather than having to choose one or the other as less mobile units must. If the unit does not shoot at all, it may Run in the shooting phase and still make an Assault move in the assault phase.


Basically it bypasses the way 40K's turn sequence roots you to the spot to wait for the retaliation to come lumbering in once you've pulled the trigger - and that, not the weapon itself, is the real problem with shuriken catapults. It would also be much more appropriate to Eldar character than merely running faster. Instead it would let Eldar core units at least attempt to fight in the way their background has always told us they do - attacking then ghosting out of range of retaliation, leaving the enemy swinging at thin air.

Making it the new USR wouldn't hurt either, because I can't think of many units other than Eldar ones who would benefit that much from it.

Hellebore
05-02-2011, 22:54
Basically it bypasses the way 40K's turn sequence roots you to the spot to wait for the retaliation to come lumbering in once you've pulled the trigger - and that, not the weapon itself, is the real problem with shuriken catapults. It would also be much more appropriate to Eldar character than merely running faster. Instead it would let Eldar core units at least attempt to fight in the way their background has always told us they do - attacking then ghosting out of range of retaliation, leaving the enemy swinging at thin air.

Making it the new USR wouldn't hurt either, because I can't think of many units other than Eldar ones who would benefit that much from it.

Don't see how that will change anything. They will get to 12" range with their catapults, shoot and then move between 1 and 6" away. Which is still in range of enemy retaliation and even lasguns annihilate eldar. A unit that moves 6" will then be between 7" and 12" away from them, enabling rapid fire and the destruction of the unit. The only thing that rule will do is protect them in some very small cases when enemy heavy weaponry is just far enough away from them that if they move they will put themselves out of range. But that would almost always be 36" ranged wepaons, anything with a longer range is unlikely to be far enough away.

It also produces a rather (IMO) dumb image of eldar running up to people's faces shooting because their guns have such a deliberately and illogically short range, and then trying to run away because they had to get so close.

Hit and run tactics shouldn't have to require getting suicidally close to the enemy just to actually hurt them and then running as fast as you can to get out of their range. Hit and run should be about positional changing and being able to manoeuvre quickly.

No matter how you slice it, 12" ranged standard infantry weapons are ridiculous for such a technologically advanced race and one that covets the lives of its people.

That they might be able to run away from the enemy with a special rule is only required because their gun is stupid in the first place.

To me that looks like a patch to the rules to try and retain something that's should never have existed in the first place.

Hellebore

Bubble Ghost
05-02-2011, 23:09
Of course it's a patch! But seeing as GW are never going to update the archaic core rules to any significant extent, patches are all we can hope for. For what it's worth, I don't think making all shuriken catapults have a range of 18" would hurt either.

AlexHolker
05-02-2011, 23:50
Of course it's a patch! But seeing as GW are never going to update the archaic core rules to any significant extent, patches are all we can hope for.
The problem is not the core rules, it's the army list. And it has been since 3rd edition.

Kyrolon
05-02-2011, 23:51
I think Bubble Ghost has the right idea, but the execution needs to vary a bit. Before I go further I hope Hendarion doesn't mind new rules here in addition to new units.

Therefore, I propose a new Eldar full army rule (after all, most other armies have army wide rules, right?). My working title would be "tactical agility." All Eldar units may use the movement and fire phases interchangeably. This would allow the shorter ranged troops to fire and then fall back. To me this makes more sense than running up and then having to make a run roll and chance only falling back 1". It would also be less powerful than something like Jump shoot Jump mechanics (which while very appropriate for Eldar skimmers would be a little too good with the current skimmers).

As for totally new units, one hole I'd like to see plugged is a jump capable assault aspect. Right now Eldar look kinda like fools. They give the flight packs to the troop with the longest ranged basic weapon in the army, and make the HTH troops run through a hail of fire. I'd like to see an aspect with jump packs (maybe grav packs?) and equipped with a pair of CCW maybe with rending (mostly because I want to keep the 100% PW aspect to banshees). As an alternative give them 2 Attacks and two handed weapons. Potential name: Harpies.

Gazak Blacktoof
06-02-2011, 00:45
As I'm writing my own eldar codex at the moment I've been inspired by Hellebore to expand on the aspect warrior variants idea.

As I said before, I don't think its worth adding anything in if it encroaches so far into the utility of another aspect warrior type so as to make them redundant at their own specialty. With that in mind I've come up with a couple of ideas that I feel would be suitable and remain consistent with the philosophy of their parent aspect.


Dire avengers- noble defenders

Knights of asuryan- equipped with pistols, swords and force shields they emphasise durability and the warrior as a stoic fighter, able to bear the brunt of the most violent assault.

These would act as a holding unit able to delay assaulters and prevent them attacking juicier targets.



Dark reapers- khaine the destroyer

Unnamed unit for support fire- Tempest launcher (or equivalent for aspect warriors) equipped warriors. Their tempest launchers allow them to rain death on the enemy from unseen positions. Though they still wear the same armour as their parent aspect they do so more deference to their phoenix lord and due to its load bearing capacity, than for defence.

Unnamed unit more closely tied to their phoenix lord (tactical terminator equivalents- sort of)- Equipped with shrieker cannons they are the most mobile of the reaper variants, striding about the field of battle terrorising foes with their deadly weaponry. The shrieker's toxin loaded munition causes targets to explode showering their comrades in gore and viscera

I think those sound deadly enough to be dark reapers and simply broaden the availability of wargear available currently whilst filling niches not covered by the current aspects.


If this takes the thread too far off topic, as we're heading into unit creating rather than wishlisting, then feel free to PM me with ideas.

Designer891
06-02-2011, 01:22
Therefore, I propose a new Eldar full army rule (after all, most other armies have army wide rules, right?). My working title would be "tactical agility." All Eldar units may use the movement and fire phases interchangeably. This would allow the shorter ranged troops to fire and then fall back. To me this makes more sense than running up and then having to make a run roll and chance only falling back 1". It would also be less powerful than something like Jump shoot Jump mechanics (which while very appropriate for Eldar skimmers would be a little too good with the current skimmers).


Guardians with cats would have to be exactly 12" away to even have an effect so they don't get charged right? Seems like its over complicated to fix an easy problem.

Lets just give guardians las blasters (assualt2 S:3 ap:4) lower the cost unless BS goes to 4 and make normal catapults at the minimum storm bolters maybe even with ap4/ap3 as well for dires. I think that fixes most of the problem.

I agree about having an assault jump pack type. I wish they would just change swooping hawks to have jet packs instead. Makes more sense like they are always hovering with their wings then they can make use of long rang weapons and hide. it will leave room for a new jump pack assault aspect.

Honestly if they just tweak the units we have add a few forgeworld type tanks/aspects I don't think we will need anything new except models of course :)

Kresterz
06-02-2011, 01:50
I think Bubble Ghost has the right idea, but the execution needs to vary a bit. Before I go further I hope Hendarion doesn't mind new rules here in addition to new units.

Therefore, I propose a new Eldar full army rule (after all, most other armies have army wide rules, right?). My working title would be "tactical agility." All Eldar units may use the movement and fire phases interchangeably. This would allow the shorter ranged troops to fire and then fall back. To me this makes more sense than running up and then having to make a run roll and chance only falling back 1". It would also be less powerful than something like Jump shoot Jump mechanics (which while very appropriate for Eldar skimmers would be a little too good with the current skimmers).

As for totally new units, one hole I'd like to see plugged is a jump capable assault aspect. Right now Eldar look kinda like fools. They give the flight packs to the troop with the longest ranged basic weapon in the army, and make the HTH troops run through a hail of fire. I'd like to see an aspect with jump packs (maybe grav packs?) and equipped with a pair of CCW maybe with rending (mostly because I want to keep the 100% PW aspect to banshees). As an alternative give them 2 Attacks and two handed weapons. Potential name: Harpies.

Isn't that funny? The most immobile units are Darkreapers and they need a overhaul (as with almosteverythingelse)! We also need a lot more mobility as our serpents are exopensive heck they can cost as muchas guardians o.o

That and we also need toreviseour weapons... The splinter rifle has 24", kabalites could camp in a spoat and snipeus out for twoutrns or so and we can donothing except shoot ONE WEAPON or counter AAFTER TW OTURNS AT LEAST!!! (guardians and DA)

Thats pathetic...

Our weapons need buffs in rangeand also the aspects need revised weaponry as currntly our fastatk and elites are sorta messed up. Shining spears for example...

Kyrolon
06-02-2011, 04:50
Guardians with cats would have to be exactly 12" away to even have an effect so they don't get charged right? Seems like its over complicated to fix an easy problem.

Lets just give guardians las blasters (assualt2 S:3 ap:4) lower the cost unless BS goes to 4 and make normal catapults at the minimum storm bolters maybe even with ap4/ap3 as well for dires. I think that fixes most of the problem.

I agree about having an assault jump pack type. I wish they would just change swooping hawks to have jet packs instead. Makes more sense like they are always hovering with their wings then they can make use of long rang weapons and hide. it will leave room for a new jump pack assault aspect.

Honestly if they just tweak the units we have add a few forgeworld type tanks/aspects I don't think we will need anything new except models of course :)

You're off a little on the calculation there designer. The guardians could end up up to 18" away. They'd shoot in the movement phase at between 6 and 12". Then in the shooting phase they would move 6" further away. This would put them 12-18" from the target unit. The only troops that could catch them are other fleet units, or fast movers like bikes or jumpers. Those types should be able to catch basic foot troops anyway.

This would mean that non "fast" units would have to work in concert to take down a guardian unit since a single foot unit would just be playing chase. Also remember this applies to the whole Eldar army. The skimmers could shoot and scoot, then next turn reposition unless the opponent chased them. To me that would feel very Eldar like. You could even make this the Eldar equivalent of Chapter Tactics granted by an Autarch with special Craftworld specific characters replacing it.

I agree it would have made more sense for the guardians to have the lasblaster, but I wouldn't want to see them get it now. I'd have far too many guardians to either convert or be rendered obsolete. It's not quite the same as the old lasgun guardians being used as counts as shuricats since there are other shuricats available in the list. I just don't see it happening.

Hellebore
06-02-2011, 05:01
Except even then it isn't going to work. In order for running away to actually have any affect they need to be able to move 7"+.

If the enemy is within 12" to fire catapults then they are also within rapid fire range, whether you run 6" or not (as the enemy can then just move 6" and rapid fire). In order for you to be out of rapid fire range you have to move 7" so that at least the enemy is 13" away. Then instead of being rapid fired to death you are simply shot once per model.

Basically unless you can move greater than 6" that extra movement does not portray eldar speed or hit and run tactics at all as it makes virtually no difference to follow up shooting.

Thus, why bother. Unless the rule actually makes up for the stupidly short range all it does is add complexity to hide inferiority.

Although that seems to be the current GW paradigm for eldar rules anyway (see Shadow Spectres).

@Gazak, they sound pretty cool. Originally my idea centred around different 'schools' of the aspects - that each exarch taught an emphasised different things within the aspect they followed. One would favour brute force over subtly, another speed over firepower etc.

Then I realised you could also apply the same concept to new and unusual aspect types, they would just be another step removed from the classic aspect.

Hellebore

Designer891
06-02-2011, 05:08
Exactly Kyrolon, you would have to at the beginning of your turn be 6-12" away. I find with guardians I have to move up to get to 12" away not the other way around most the time is what I meant.

It's rare people are charging into my guardians since they simply suck and bolters usually take them out. The problem is when we move them up to get 12" then in the opposing players turn they get charged.

I think that new army wide rule may cause problems with other rules and can cause conflicts with things not being in order as well. So I say increase the range.

So back on topic about new units, how would you design a new jump CC troop? We got scorpions (good armor S:4), banshees (power weapons).Maybe we could have somthing to do with electricity a CC unit that has haywire and some special haywire CC weapon that reduces a unit strength 1/2 as well as attacks? I am not sure.

Edit: @Gazak I like the reapers with shirken cannons been dying to get something mobile like that, I wonder if it would be that unfluffy to give them 2+ saves?

AlexHolker
06-02-2011, 06:02
I agree about having an assault jump pack type. I wish they would just change swooping hawks to have jet packs instead. Makes more sense like they are always hovering with their wings then they can make use of long rang weapons and hide. it will leave room for a new jump pack assault aspect.
Personally, my starting point would be to give Swooping Hawks and the new unit jump packs and jet packs and Hit and Run.

They're the Eldar - grav tech and harassment is their speciality.

Kyrolon
06-02-2011, 07:15
Exactly Kyrolon, you would have to at the beginning of your turn be 6-12" away. I find with guardians I have to move up to get to 12" away not the other way around most the time is what I meant.

It's rare people are charging into my guardians since they simply suck and bolters usually take them out. The problem is when we move them up to get 12" then in the opposing players turn they get charged.

I think that new army wide rule may cause problems with other rules and can cause conflicts with things not being in order as well. So I say increase the range.

So back on topic about new units, how would you design a new jump CC troop? We got scorpions (good armor S:4), banshees (power weapons).Maybe we could have somthing to do with electricity a CC unit that has haywire and some special haywire CC weapon that reduces a unit strength 1/2 as well as attacks? I am not sure.

Edit: @Gazak I like the reapers with shirken cannons been dying to get something mobile like that, I wonder if it would be that unfluffy to give them 2+ saves?

You have a good point about the rapid firing units, but my guardians are usually in cover. I'd accept some casualties if the marines (we'll use them as the prototypical rapid firing unit) came within range for me to fire back and then fall back while they get countercharged by something nastier than a tac squad. This is still a problem with orks though since GW rather stupidly gave the shoota an 18" range.

@ hellebore- I realize increasing the range is the simplest solution, but I was thinking more along the lines of a playstyle change than a unit buff. As far as complexity of the concept, I've played lots of game systems that give a unit X number of activations (usually only one of which can be shooting) that work just fine.

Back to the unit design for jump assault infantry it would look something like this. I like your ideas for an electrical theme.

Shocking Elementals (yes the name needs work)-aspect warriors 20 pts
unit size 5-10 Unit type: Jump Infantry
WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 5 A 2 LD 9 SV 4+

Wargear: Grav Pack, Haywire Grenades, Plasma Grenades, Shock Glaive
Grav Pack = Jump Pack
Shock Glaive: 6" Range S4 AP4 Assault 1 ignores cover weapon usable as a two handed CCW (+2 S).
Special Rules: Hit and Run, Fleet

May upgrade 1 elemental to an exarch for 12 pts.
Exarch Powers
Surprise Assault 20 pts: the unit may assault after Deep Striking
Shocking Aura 15 pts: any unit left unengaged after the elementals perform a successful hit and run is automatically pinned (even if otherwise immune to pinning). Vehicles are automatically stunned if engaged by elementals in the previous close combat phase. (note this represents physical shock therefore no amount of fearlessness helps similar to getting out of a wrecked vehicle).

Exarch Weapons (replace shock glaive)
Lighting Projector S5 AP3 Assault 1 Template 10 pts
Shock Lance S4 AP4 assault 1 6" Range ignores cover +2 Str Power Weapon 10 pts.

That's a rough draft. I'm sure it could use tweaking.

Hendarion
06-02-2011, 07:28
If the unit shoots with no weapons other than pistols or assault weapons in the shooting phase, it can then also make a Run move afterwards, rather than having to choose one or the other as less mobile units must. If the unit does not shoot at all, it may Run in the shooting phase and still make an Assault move in the assault phase.

I like it. It is giving back what Eldar had always been advertised for: speed.


Don't see how that will change anything. They will get to 12" range with their catapults, shoot and then move between 1 and 6" away. Which is still in range of enemy retaliation and even lasguns annihilate eldar.
But still it is outside of assault-range. You can't expect to get some rule that will keep your minis always out of reach for rapid-fire and out of reach for assaults. If you want that, maybe Tau is your better choice.


Hit and run tactics shouldn't have to require getting suicidally close to the enemy just to actually hurt them and then running as fast as you can to get out of their range. Hit and run should be about positional changing and being able to manoeuvre quickly.
I totally disagree. After having played so many RPG- and RTS-Games, I can assure you that Hit&Run is exactly about that: Go in and hit hard, but try to drop out before you get smashed in close combat or by other ranged weapons.


No matter how you slice it, 12" ranged standard infantry weapons are ridiculous for such a technologically advanced race and one that covets the lives of its people.
Still true.


That they might be able to run away from the enemy with a special rule is only required because their gun is stupid in the first place.
Not entirely true. It will give back speed and allow a good volley of shots even from Avengers which would be able to lay down nice fire at 18", but then drop back to stay out of range for ANY rapid-fire weapon that wants to move forward in its turn.
And I doubt we should see FireDragons with more than 12" range. That ability will keep them out of close combat. Seriously useful in my eyes, as every enemy who tries to rapid-fire Dragons will get a bad headache the turn after.

Bubble Ghost
06-02-2011, 13:46
Basically unless you can move greater than 6" that extra movement does not portray eldar speed or hit and run tactics at all as it makes virtually no difference to follow up shooting.

Thus, why bother. Unless the rule actually makes up for the stupidly short range all it does is add complexity to hide inferiority.

You're right. But there's inferiority here regardless, whether you see that as being with the shuriken catapult itself or with what the rules allow the Eldar to do with it, and one or both is going to need some sort of ugly patch. Personally I think it's a bit of both - like I said on the last page, I personally think shuriken catapults could all do with being 18" range, which would allow something like Eldar troops working like mini-jetpacks to have a meaningful effect, not to mention a unique and very appropriate one to their character.

Anyway, I just think it's depressingly unambitious (or perhaps new toy lust) that people want the answer to these nimble Eldar warriors allowing themselves to be mown down point blank by lumbering barbarians not to be to make them more mobile, but to give them preposterously powerful guns so that their inappropriate lack of moblity matters less. It's dealing with a headache by slamming a mallet down on your fingers - there has to be a better way.

Shamana
06-02-2011, 14:08
I agree with the idea of giving eldar on foot a shoot+move... I'd normally make it 1d3, with an option for 1d6 (i.e. an autarch ability). We've already have 2 codices that give something like that, as an order and psychic power, so it's not out of the question imo - it could be a wide (not universal) ability like the DE's power from pain. Still, if harlequins get it there should be a note retroactively giving it to the DE codex harlies.

BTW, I am generally in favor of the aspects having the choice of several wargear options, such as banshees choosing between S4 glaives and more attacks, dragons between meltas and flamers, etc. Would it bother you if reapers get the choice of several heavy weapons (EML, starcannon, shuriken cannon) and become simply heavy weapon specialists? On one hand, I think it certainly ties with their "death from afar" principle... on the other, it kinda feels like they become Devastator copies.

Hendarion
06-02-2011, 16:27
on the other, it kinda feels like they become Devastator copies.
That is exactly what I thought. Better add another aspect instead, based on these weapons or give the Exarch that option. Devastors are not really what should be created I think.

Shamana
06-02-2011, 16:42
...or give the Exarch that option.

That's part of the problem - the exarch already can pack up an AI (shuriken cannon, EML plasma) or AV (EML krak) option, but the rest of the squad can't really support him/her there. Reapers are in the strange position of having half the exarch gear and the PL weapon function in a somewhat different role from their main one. As it is, they aren't all that good at what they do anyway due to the amount of cover, FnP, and the overall fragility of the unit itself, and if the exarch chooses anything except a reaper launcher or tempest launcher, his weapon fulfills a role in which the rest of the squad can't do much.

If we make reapers better at their main job (anti-heavy infantry), they'd imo need a slight buff in strength and/or AP 2 to punch through TEQ and FNP - which is basically starcannon territory already. I feel that giving the aspect the option to choose between several loadouts might be the simplest way out of their predicament - no need to introduce another aspect with essentially the same theme ("death from afar" => high-power, long-range weaponry).

Zaonite
06-02-2011, 17:23
I'm all in for the idea of Aspect variants from the Parent aspects.

I think you could interpret the new Aspect from forge world in this way, with the Shadow Spectres being a Dark Reaper Variant.

I think it would add character to the codex without adding new units/pages and only slight modification is needed to the existing kits.

Kresterz
06-02-2011, 19:39
This is also tactically better because right now, only the DA exarch can pack a sword or powerweapon and only the exarch can do a certain thing with the other units just stand there because they are not effective enough

Shamana
06-02-2011, 20:53
I'd rather see Dire avengers as a eldar version of the grey hunters - possibly a point or two more expensive than they are now, packing avenger catapult, CCW and a pistol? (or true grit) to get an extra attack in melee, and with some extra abilities (WS 5, hatred, or something else) to make sure that anything they don't drown in a storm of blades, they can take apart (or at least hold down) at swordpoint.

If the idea of somewhat flexible aspects does make it to the codex, you could make them shootier, more damaging in CC or harder to take down (especially as you combine them with the right exarch), but the idea is the same - when you want to hold the line, come what may, you call on the guys with the greek helmets.

BTW, what do people think of falcon varieties included in the codex as the LR ones are in the IG codex - the regular falcon, firestorm, possibly prism, spinner and warp hunter... what other ones can we come up with? I think we already have most covered, except possibly the "absurd number of attacks" one - perhaps a heavy 3 large blast with S4 AP 4 pinning profile, an eldar plasma MLRS? Or perhaps we could have upgunned lances, like the dark kin on their voidraven bomber?

Gazak Blacktoof
06-02-2011, 21:19
Isn't a tank with an absurd number of attacks covered by the firestorm with its multi-scatter laser AA mount?

Shamana
07-02-2011, 01:05
Not really, iirc. It's a TL heavy 6. With a shuriken cannon on top of that, it is equal in number of shots to a falcon with scatter laser and shuriken cannon. A Valkyrie with heavy bolter sponsors already has more shots, even before you throw in the multiple rocket pods.

I was thinking about something to rival the Heavy 20s in the IG and Tyrannid codex, maybe slightly less if BS 4 or TL. If you could get 2 firestorm triple-scatter laser mounts, that could work. However, I think a "katyusha" plasma missile falcon could be an interesting way to put something new on the falcon basis. It's kind of a pity - mechanically, the eldar pretty much have only two mechanized non-walker chassis, the Vyper (which, if it doesn't become an attack bike of sorts, could kinda share a chassis with a Venom), and the falcon/serpent. Right now, the Eldar have a total of 2 "bases" for mech units, compared to, what, 4 for IG (12/10/10 chimera/artillery, hellhound/banewolf/devil dog - same as before but with 12 side armor, valkyrie/vendetta heavy skimmer, Leman Russ) and 5 for marines (rhino/razor/whirlwind, drop pod, predator, speeder (open-topped and closed-top variants), land raider).

I suppose it's a bit of a problem since eldar skimmers are supposed to be light to medium, and an AV 13 from the frong may move them in heavy category, and possibly step on the toes of the Tau. It still gets on my nerves that practicaly everything that isn't a vyper is on the falcon body, though. The hornet from IA 11 would be a good way to spice things a little, providing a light-but-not-that-light skimmer that the army would certainly appreciate. I'd appreciate something new for variety's sake - a 11/11/10 hornet-like tank, 13/12/11 heavy skimmer tank, 10/10/10 close-topped skimmer, etc.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-02-2011, 18:56
Not really, iirc. It's a TL heavy 6.

That's just absurd, with 3 scatter lasers it should have 18 shots, plus those from any underslung weapons.

Eumerin
07-02-2011, 19:02
I suppose it's a bit of a problem since eldar skimmers are supposed to be light to medium, and an AV 13 from the frong may move them in heavy category, and possibly step on the toes of the Tau. It still gets on my nerves that practicaly everything that isn't a vyper is on the falcon body, though. The hornet from IA 11 would be a good way to spice things a little, providing a light-but-not-that-light skimmer that the army would certainly appreciate. I'd appreciate something new for variety's sake - a 11/11/10 hornet-like tank, 13/12/11 heavy skimmer tank, 10/10/10 close-topped skimmer, etc.

Well...

Hopefully we'll get a flyer before long, which would add another hull. But I do understand where you're coming from.

Vaktathi
07-02-2011, 19:27
That's just absurd, with 3 scatter lasers it should have 18 shots, plus those from any underslung weapons.No combined weapon in the game like that has the full number of shots from all barrels (e.g. TL Lascannons don't have 2 shots). It may be more accurate, slower firing from each weapon but higher RoF when combined than a single scatterlaser, or something of the like.

18 TL S6 Ap6 36" shots would almost be a superheavy weapon. One will notice the "20" shot weapons in C:IG and C:Tyranids are either 24" S5 AP- or S4 AP5 and IIRC 12". Neither of these weapons are particularly capable of hurting vehicles (being either S4 or AP-) and are very short ranged, not TL'd and aren't wounding anything on 2's, or on particularly fast platforms, generally costing 200-250something points.

Shamana
07-02-2011, 19:31
That's just absurd, with 3 scatter lasers it should have 18 shots, plus those from any underslung weapons.

ACtually, I can understand where the 6 TL shots come from: it's main armament is a set of three scatter laser guns. Normally, 2 guns just stacked together are considered a twin-linked weapon, so 3 thus become 1.5 twin-linked guns. Weird, I guess, but there you go. Here's (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/xlarge/firesconv.jpg) the picture, if you want to check.

It's a bit of a pity that unlike fliers, which almost never have armor higher than 11 (and even 11, like what the Valkyrie had, was quite rare) skimmers often have 12+, which limits the AA uses of the scatter laser somewhat. With Eldar falcon-chassis skimmers, IG vendettas/valkyries, the new BA/GK skimmer and some of the Tau skimmers having 12+ (I'm not counting the Monolith here), front and often side armor, the Hydra's two TL autocannons might be a lot more useful in many cases. Not to mention the price tag the firestorm iirc had (although if they give it somewhere around 10-12 TL SL shots I wouldn't mind a starting price in the 130-160 range) - iirc it could cost as much as a land raider when you put spirit stones, holo-fields, and, oh, let's say vectored engines on it. Well, anyway, let's see what the "summer of fliers" will bring in terms of AA options.

TheLaughingGod
07-02-2011, 21:42
Now we could turn this upside down:
- Devilfish vs. Falcon
- LandRaider vs. Falcon
- Guardians vs. FireWarriors
- Banshees vs. Sisters of Battle
- Scorpions vs. Terminators
- Serpent vs. Leman Russ
- and so on...

Exaggeration and wishlisting: Busted.

Oh sorry, Hendarion, I'm gonna have to prove you wrong.

Falcon Grav tank
2nd Edition:Falcon was always out of LOS with Pop-up attack
3rd Edition: 1/36 chance of even a Railgun killing a Falcon (holofields)
4th Edition: 1/36 chance AT BEST of killing a Falcon (with holofields)
5th Edition: 1/72 chance of killing a Falcon moving flat-out.
Falcon with Holofields is one of the hardest to kill vehicles in the game.
Land Raiders die easier.

edit: disclaimer, my math is only an approximation, but Falcons with Holofields are still harder to kill than almost anything

Wave Serpent: Cannot be penetrated on anything better than a 5+. PERIOD. Immune to Melta. Incredibly hard to kill.

Armor saves by army (majority)
Space Marines 3+
Witchhunters 3+
Tau 4+
Ork 6+
Dark Eldar 5+
Imperial Guard 5+
Craftworld Eldar 3+
Daemons --
Tyranids 5+

Army with most 4++ invulnerable saves:
Craftworld Eldar (Warlocks & Farseers)

Army with the highest Toughness unit
Craftworld Eldar (Wraithlord)

Army with the highest toughness Troops Choice
Craftworld Eldar (Wraithguard)

Craftworld Eldar is an elite highly protected army.

Also, you notice that your "Eschews armor for speed" quotes are from White Dwarfs predominatley, and don't exist in codices, or rulebooks. It's just marketing jumbo.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-02-2011, 21:59
No combined weapon in the game like that has the full number of shots from all barrels (e.g. TL Lascannons don't have 2 shots).

Except the warwalker of course, which mounts two guns side by side and doesn't count as twin linking. There are also several vehicles with sponson mounts that have two guns of the same type firing to full effect. The wraithlord is also similarly equipped being able to have either two catapults or two flamers firing at full effect.

Oh and erred before, a firestorm would be 12 shot if all three guns fired at full strength:o. That's 4 more shots than a warwalker with 2 scatter lasers or half the firepower of a fully loaded scatter laser squadron. Couched in those terms it sounds perfectly reasonable.

If you're still concerned about breaking the "normal" conventions for 40K, you could obviously just give it a new name and call it a firestorm battery which would have a single weapon profile with 12 shots.

EDIT- I realised you also thought I'd suggested twin linking, but that wasn't and isn't the case. A firestorm with 12 shots (or another similarly high number) needn't be twin linked, and probably shouldn't be.

Dr.Clock
07-02-2011, 22:39
While the point is well taken, TheLaughingGod, I think it's overstated somewhat.

Majority 3+ save in eldar armies? I'd try that again... 11 out of 25 unit entries in the back of the book is not a majority. Aside from that, including unique HQs and exarchs in that count is a little dubious. Eldar usually have 3+ saves at the expense of fleet... or as a result of riding a jetbike.

Likewise Wraithguard. Really? You have to spend almost 400 points on that troop choice and it has 12" range and cannot be transported. Fine... it has the highest toughness out of any 'possible' troop infantry unit. This should not suggest that it is a mainstay eldar unit or that other armies are hurting in having resilient troops (is a tervigon not T6 3+?).

Highest T unit. Sure. Also, it has the minimum number of W usually assigned to an MC.

Most 4++? Surely that honour would go to 1kSons and Tzeentch in general?

Eldar have VARIETY of options along the tough-weak scale... this is true... but it is also the reason why combining the options into a viable list has been historically quite difficult and usually leads to stupid spam lists (the min/max star-cannons of yore... current mech-dragon spam). There really is no 'average' eldar...

Eldar have WEIRD rules... Their weapons are usually either totally overkill or pretty useless. Their units are either tougher than nails or blow away in a strong breeze. It is a list of extremes and will likely remain so.

What the designers have failed to do for some time is give them a solid, easily-communicated theme that gives clear direction to the player.

'Speed' has been thrown around alot, but this doesn't translate anymore when a) everyone can run, b) the speed of the tanks means not doing anything else effectively and c) every 5th ed. list has been getting faster and faster choices and/or more ways to outflank and deepstrike. 'Technology' used to be it... before Necrons and Tau and DE showed up to ruin everything. Our basic weapon is now the same as a shotgun, and where we once were up to twice the speed of orks or humans on foot, we're now the same speed (except that we can get into assault faster... with our defensive troops).

Eldar need a fresh start... we have over 20 years of history and numerous cool units that need to be consolidated into a list that makes sense as a unified force and not a hodgepodge of units tossed at random into an FOC.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

TheLaughingGod
07-02-2011, 23:41
Majority 3+ save in eldar armies? I'd try that again... 11 out of 25 unit entries in the back of the book is not a majority. Aside from that, including unique HQs and exarchs in that count is a little dubious. Eldar usually have 3+ saves at the expense of fleet... or as a result of riding a jetbike..
That number total is skewed with entries for 4 different Harlequin models and such. Ignoring models who's only save is invulnerable or who are named ICs
You have
Guardian
Ranger
Dire Avenger
Howling Banshee
Swooping Hawk
Fire Dragon
-VS-
Dark Reaper
Autarch
Avatar
Warp Spider
Jetbike
Shining Spear
Striking Scorpion
Wraithguard
Wraithlord
Exarch

Clear 3+ majority




Likewise Wraithguard. Really? You have to spend almost 400 points on that troop choice and it has 12" range and cannot be transported. Fine... it has the highest toughness out of any 'possible' troop infantry unit. This should not suggest that it is a mainstay eldar unit or that other armies are hurting in having resilient troops (is a tervigon not T6 3+?)..
The effectiveness of the unit is not really in question here, simply that it HAS those stats when no one else does. And it's still 11 Wounds at T6 3+ (and 5+ cover, likely)



Highest T unit. Sure. Also, it has the minimum number of W usually assigned to an MC.. With the exception of Tyranids (who just recently got 6 wounds) I don't think there are many 4 wound MCs, are there? Daemons have some, maybe?




Most 4++? Surely that honour would go to 1kSons and Tzeentch in general?. Well, Tzeench isn't a codex. Chaos Daemons/Space Marines is. And they're just a single entry. In addition, I don't think 1kSons is 4++, they're 5++ I believe.




Eldar have WEIRD rules... Their weapons are usually either totally overkill or pretty useless. Their units are either tougher than nails or blow away in a strong breeze. It is a list of extremes and will likely remain so..




What the designers have failed to do for some time is give them a solid, easily-communicated theme that gives clear direction to the player. . Agreed, thrice over.




Eldar need a fresh start... we have over 20 years of history and numerous cool units that need to be consolidated into a list that makes sense as a unified force and not a hodgepodge of units tossed at random into an FOC. I fully agree. There are a lot of Eldar players who have fanon interpretations of Eldar as being glass cannons, even though they have never been and certainly should not become! So with a complete redo, their technology and speed should certainly be played up. Fast elite units with advanced armour, fields, quick redeployment, effective long ranged weapons and devastating psychic abilities should be our angle.

Psychic to the Necrons Tech
Nimble to the Dark Eldars speed
Precise to the Tau's brute force

Hellebore
07-02-2011, 23:50
The problem with the idea of 'speed at the expense of armour' is that the game doesn't actually have a system to represent that.

It's either:

Slow, well armoured
Fast (no additional protection), well armoured
Slow, lightly armoured
Fast (no additional protection), lightly armoured

In the end, the rules make a slow, lightly armoured unit just as vulnerable as a fast, lightly armoured unit.

If the game allowed for a model to get a cover save when it Runs, or if the eldar had a rule where they got one for running, then you could legitimately claim that they are giving up armour for speed as a different form of protection.

But at the moment, reducing armour simply makes something worse, not better.

Not that I think the eldar actually should be reduced in armour. You only have to look at Aeuronautica Imperialis and BFG to see eldar technology with equivalent armour and better everything else than their opponents (eldar aircraft and craftworld fleets).

T3 and a 3+ save isn't particularly tough. Toughness has always played a more important role in the game than Sv, because the number of things in the game that actualy IGNORE toughness are pretty small (larger now with the dark eldar), whilst ignoring Sv is par for the course.

Hellebore

Kresterz
07-02-2011, 23:57
I agree, We actually have someof the most outdated units...somebordering on longer than 2 centuries? And some without rule changes in general... That isn't lack of good units, just a lack of good revising after each codex to see what is wrong... We see a lot ofrandomunits that are just there tosay we have been making units. But how many hark squads are there? They still carry "Lasblasters!" That is an imperium weaponandinstead theyshouldcarry something like a sky rilfe...a\ at least the name sounds better.

Most of our Phoenix lords could be remolded, theyare still here from quite a long time... Heck, many of our things could be remolded

AlexHolker
08-02-2011, 00:00
Not that I think the eldar actually should be reduced in armour. You only have to look at Aeuronautica Imperialis and BFG to see eldar technology with equivalent armour and better everything else than their opponents (eldar aircraft and craftworld fleets).
You apparently haven't actually read the BFG rules. They've got the worst armour in the game, less hit points, no shields and suffer more critical hits. Their only defensive advantages are their holofields and maneuverability - in other words, not getting shot.

Hellebore
08-02-2011, 00:11
You apparently haven't actually read the BFG rules. They've got the worst armour in the game, less hit points, no shields and suffer more critical hits. Their only defensive advantages are their holofields and maneuverability - in other words, not getting shot.

:rolleyes: I said craftworld fleets http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1280014_BFG_Doom_of_the_Eldar.pdf. Craftworld fleets have 5+ armour (except the 4+ on the single escort, which is the same as the Imperial Cobra to their cruisers). You're talking about the corsair fleets.

Their holofields are excellent against everything and provide the only save mechanic in the game, normal shields only ignore a number of points equal to their value, which is mostly set at 1-2. I'd take a 2+ save against ALL non WB attacks over ignoring 1-2 hits per turn any day.

Hellebore

TheLaughingGod
08-02-2011, 00:22
You apparently haven't actually read the BFG rules. They've got the worst armour in the game, less hit points, no shields and suffer more critical hits. Their only defensive advantages are their holofields and maneuverability - in other words, not getting shot.

I chuckled at the accusation that Hellebore wasn't familiar with something related to Eldar. :D

Kellindel
08-02-2011, 02:32
And maybe dead Exarchs put into specialist Wraith constructs (like a Striking scorpion exarch in a giant wraithscorpion construct etc.)

Ahhh .... Exarchs are already in "Wraith" Constructs. The Exarch Armor houses each Exarch soul as each one wears the same armor and dies in said armor.

Only each soul is still present when the new wearing dons the armor and the wearer takes on the identity of the original Exarch.

The Pheonix Lords armor is similar, only the Exarch that "wears" the armor is consumed by the Pheonix Lord so only he exists.

Wraith CC is an insteresting idea, but Eldar society would refuse to put such a distruptive soul that belongs to an exarch into a Wraith shell.

Dr.Clock
08-02-2011, 03:38
@ TheLaughingGod:

I appreciate the time taken to address my post point-by-point. I disagree slightly with some of the points you raise, but it's off-topic and minor to the fact that I see we're pretty much in agreement as to the more important issues at stake.

As far as new units are concerned, I'd propose that Eldar actually suffer from having more units than it knows what to do with, at least when it comes to anything with a T value.

Shifting around the FOC a little to reflect the increasingly mechanized nature of the game is the first port of call for me:

Falcons should be dedicated transports for aspects.

This would also free up Heavy Support for squadrons of Hornets. I would buy that in a second.

Turret weapons should be able to combine their fire (who else has two weapons on a single turret that aren't twin-linked - aside from lazplaz?... dual shuri falcon was a little abusive in 4th... but only the pulse-laser on the move? really?)

New unit: There should be an option to take the bird-themed vehicle upgrade-aspect for a simple BS4 on vehicles (falcons mostly...). I would even take that as a Heavy-Support selection if we had falcon transports.

I disagree with an entire new tank for assault-purposes. This is better dealt with by the one unit I feel warrants assault-vehicle capability (Banshees) just getting it as an optional upgrade.

I really like the idea of mini-walkers. Guardians on stilts.

Looks like a FA unit to me though. Give them scout, in units 3-6, T5, 2W, 3+, shuriken cannon and jet-pack (you actually might just fall-down if you linger in broken ground... down-gunned, less flexible, tougher Crisis) or introduce 'nimble' as an infantry-based move-shoot-move mechanic. Love the image of a unit of walkers and a unit of 'stilties' at their ankles flanking the dug-in guardians.

As far as Webway support is concerned, I don't think an entire vehicle, that is Tank, is the answer.

The ability of the Autarch, say, to buy a deep-striking webway portal would certainly make me think long and hard about farseer vs. autarch... and I'd be more likely to at least have two of each available to switch it up now and again... hence I'd probably double the number of HQs I buy (nudge-nudge wink-wink).

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Kresterz
08-02-2011, 03:47
@ the good doctor

Hornets are fast attack o.o

BUt I agree on the falcon being turned into pure transports... I just fail to see why we would because they can both filed pulsars o,o.

Dr.Clock
08-02-2011, 04:01
Oh right... it was spectres that were HS no? Well... they should switch places. This just in: vypers should make sense.

Both field pulsars? I'm confused as to what you're referring to. Why would we take falcon transports? Because they're awesome?

They should be filling the razorback's role... they just need to be EFFECTIVELY up-gunned serpents, not have a useless gun that you can't fire if you want to use your holo-field.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Hendarion
08-02-2011, 04:21
Oh sorry, Hendarion, I'm gonna have to prove you wrong.
Once again you have picked ridiculous examples and actually they already got proven wrong or you have grouped different unit entries (Guardians are 1 choice? I see at least 2) to your favourite to represent a choice of units that isn't existing (it's like saying C:SM has only 1 choice: Space Marines).


However, I am not going to discuss this in detail, as this is by far not what I had created this topic for and I strongly recommend to return to the original discussion. Please. The other stuff is *not* what I had created this topic for or what I am interested to discuss or read.

Shamana
08-02-2011, 08:56
Falcons should be dedicated transports for aspects.

This would also free up Heavy Support for squadrons of Hornets. I would buy that in a second.

Turret weapons should be able to combine their fire (who else has two weapons on a single turret that aren't twin-linked - aside from lazplaz?... dual shuri falcon was a little abusive in 4th... but only the pulse-laser on the move? really?)

New unit: There should be an option to take the bird-themed vehicle upgrade-aspect for a simple BS4 on vehicles (falcons mostly...). I would even take that as a Heavy-Support selection if we had falcon transports.

I don't see why we need aspects when the uberadvanced eldar tech can just make decent targetting systems, like what the Tau have. Get those space-pot-smoking bonesingers off their lazy eldar behinds and get them to work already! Eldar are dying because they have been slacking off after finishing the fire prism. BTW, are there "aspects" for eldar aircraft like nightwings? I think those are BS 4 too.

Apart from that, I'm not too keen on falcons being dedicated transports, what with their great transport capacity. They can already put out more shots than most other vehicles of their class. I feel it kinda makes a mockery of the idea of what a "dedicated transport" should be. Then again, BTs have land raiders as dedicated transports, so you could argue for falcons from a more mech-oriented craftworld like Saim-Hann.


I disagree with an entire new tank for assault-purposes. This is better dealt with by the one unit I feel warrants assault-vehicle capability (Banshees) just getting it as an optional upgrade.

I don't really see the point, when in all other cases the ability to assault after disembarking depends on the transport. What's the problem to just make it a vehicle upgrade on serpents? If it also provides another access point in the front, it would be well worth 10-15 points.

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 09:17
I find the problem with making the Falcon a transport option is it has a tank chassis as opposed to a transport one, and takes the tank upgrades.

It's purely aesthetic, but I wouldn't put those there.

However, if it was to stay Heavy Support, I would have the following:

Allow the transport capacity to be replaced by a Webway Portal; it allows an option for an infantry unit in reserve to enter (regardless of how otherwise they would enter) as if it were a table edge.

Now in 2nd edition, the Vyper could be made a 'chariot' mount for some characters. I could imagine a Vyper variant similar to the Venom (with different loadouts) as an alternative to an expensive Wave Serpent. Maybe slower than the Venom (unless given Star Engines) but better armoured?

Shamana
08-02-2011, 10:59
Wasn't the venom supposed to be based on the vyper chassis anyway? I think the two should be nearly identical, except possibly for the armament. Then again, if it is a harlequin weapon, I don't see any problems with either the flickerfields or the poison guns.

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 11:01
It's not a Harlequin weapon anymore (they can't choose it as a dedicated transport), as it seems to have a much bigger 'Dark Eldar' theme now.

Shamana
08-02-2011, 11:16
Well, it might not be exclusively harlequin, but since the troupes travel around throughout the eldar sects it is possible that they have equipment from the different eldar groups as well. I'd expect the Shrieker cannon's poisons weren't invented on a craftworld, either.

Sai-Lauren
08-02-2011, 12:27
No matter how you slice it, 12" ranged standard infantry weapons are ridiculous for such a technologically advanced race and one that covets the lives of its people.

Agreed. Stick them back to 24" like the rest of the ranged weapons.

Or even dual stat them, say 18" or even 24" Rapid Fire/ 12" Assault 2 (and before anyone says it, yes, I know ;)). But that then gives Guardians the option of a few ranged shots, or a close in storm of shots before they assault what's left of the enemy unit.



That they might be able to run away from the enemy with a special rule is only required because their gun is stupid in the first place.

To me that looks like a patch to the rules to try and retain something that's should never have existed in the first place.

Sounds like most of the rules that came in for 3rd edition... :rolleyes:



If we make reapers better at their main job (anti-heavy infantry), they'd imo need a slight buff in strength and/or AP 2 to punch through TEQ and FNP - which is basically starcannon territory already. I feel that giving the aspect the option to choose between several loadouts might be the simplest way out of their predicament - no need to introduce another aspect with essentially the same theme ("death from afar" => high-power, long-range weaponry).

Actually, thinking back to the difference in the two Scorpion shrines in Path of the Warrior here, what about having them as Exarch powers rather than different aspects?

So rather than the ones we currently get (or maybe in addition to), have a single choice of more expensive ones that really buff the unit - say Reapers get one that gives an extra shot for dealing with horde armies, one forces armour save rerolls and so on.

And maybe also boost the Exarch from their current veteran sergeant position and make them more expensive - I'd be tempted to remove them from their squads to non-org slot HQ choices (like Commissars), but you can only take a maximum of one per aspect squad taken, and they have to be of one of the taken aspect (back to the RT era list).



'Speed' has been thrown around alot, but this doesn't translate anymore when a) everyone can run, b) the speed of the tanks means not doing anything else effectively and c) every 5th ed. list has been getting faster and faster choices and/or more ways to outflank and deepstrike. 'Technology' used to be it... before Necrons and Tau and DE showed up to ruin everything. Our basic weapon is now the same as a shotgun, and where we once were up to twice the speed of orks or humans on foot, we're now the same speed (except that we can get into assault faster... with our defensive troops).

Eldar need a fresh start... we have over 20 years of history and numerous cool units that need to be consolidated into a list that makes sense as a unified force and not a hodgepodge of units tossed at random into an FOC.

Ding, we have a winner.

The vast majority of the Eldar army was designed for RT and 2nd edition, where they were designed around higher movement rates than everything else and armour save modifiers (not to mention masses of weapons with following/sustained fire).

In fact, what was the most recent unit to be added before the Autarch was, Shining Spears? Which were, IIRC, very late 2nd edition.

3rd edition was basically designed around MEQs, and Eldar have kind of been crowbarred in.



You apparently haven't actually read the BFG rules. They've got the worst armour in the game, less hit points, no shields and suffer more critical hits. Their only defensive advantages are their holofields and maneuverability - in other words, not getting shot.

Who wrote both BFG and 40k 3rd edition? Was it by any chance Andy Chambers? ;)

Who wrote AI?

BFG holofields can be great, but shields are more reliable - I've the debris field of an Eclipse that tried a shoot and scoot to show for that one :).

N3p3nth3
08-02-2011, 12:55
Well, I'd like to see this branch out a bit, get some more harlies and exodites in.

Of course, I'd also like them to keep the approach where harlies are pretty much identical between CW and Dark Eldar, so I think I'll hope for a WD update that would give both armies access to a Mime Troupe. :)

BigBarryJazz
08-02-2011, 15:27
In fact, what was the most recent unit to be added before the Autarch was, Shining Spears? Which were, IIRC, very late 2nd edition.

Shining spears were in the original codex, near the start of 2nd ed. I think pretty much all the eldar tanks have been added since then. Was the falcon in the codex? I can't remember.


We don't really need any new units as we have rather a lot already (although the firestorm would be a nice addition). Just give me rules that make them all worth taking rather than making some obvious candidates to be left behind.

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 15:53
Falcon and Prism were not present in the 2nd ed Codex, and had Datafax sheets with the original boxes.

The Vyper was present, but had no model and little if any artwork.

Eumerin
08-02-2011, 19:02
The Wave Serpent was an immigrant from Epic, iirc.



So rather than the ones we currently get (or maybe in addition to), have a single choice of more expensive ones that really buff the unit - say Reapers get one that gives an extra shot for dealing with horde armies, one forces armour save rerolls and so on.

Different amunition types, perhaps, each with its own special ability? How about a rule that at the start of each game, you can pick the type of ammunition that your Reapers will use for that game? That would allow you to customize your Reapers for use against specific enemy types without having to spend a bunch of extra points on abilities that wouldn't be of much use during that game.

Dr.Clock
08-02-2011, 19:02
The main reason to make falcons a dedicated transport is to free up HS choices.

I'm not in favour of eldar tank squadrons, but HS IS overencumbered.

I haven't bought any of the brilliant new Prisms as my current force simply can't fit them. I never leave home without a WL and I usually augment this with either a pair of falcons, falcon and walkers, or occasionally Dark Reapers.

Falcons need a buff... to be sure... but having access to one or two outside HS makes for more varied lists than what we usually have now: tonnes of serpents and prisms.

I think a list of 2 serpents, 2 falcons and 2 prisms would really highlight the advanced-tech elite nature that GW keeps harping on about. I know this could lead to spamming in certain cases though... so I'd say do it like the terminators in most SM books: 1 aspect unit of a given type may take a falcon transport... that is as long as you take different aspects, you could have 3 falcons in elite and one in troops. This eliminates the sextuple DAVU list that would surely anger people. The most you could get would be four, with no room for any other HS (if they left it as a HS choice as well).

The Falcon used to be our MBT. It does not classify as anything near that these days and needs help from the list organization to ever see the field in serious play.

I with Sai-Lauren in that the easiest way to differentiate aspect units of the same type is just to have mutually exclusive 'major abilities' for each aspect.

Reapers can either ignore cover or add a shot to the unit.

Banshees get either furious charge or 5++ in combat.

Scorpions get either Stealth or Preferred Enemy.

DA get either Bladestorm or Counter-attack. [totally in favour of pistol/CCW/catapult]

Fire Dragons get Tank Hunters or ignore cover. [Tank Hunters might seem superfluous, but it makes taking smaller squads a little more viable]

Warp Spiders get Scout or re-rolls to dangerous terrain.

Hawks get Skyleap or jet-packs (give them Rending and their firepower actually becomes effective as mobile snipers).

Shining Spears Get Hit and Run or Preferred Enemy.

This essentially makes the player think long and hard about the role of the aspects in an army and will be able to plug holes more readily and suit the aspects under his command to how he plans to use them. Of course, having some 'minor abilities' as well wouldn't hurt either(Defend, Stalkers, Skilled Rider etc.). Such a system of mutually exclusive unit-wide upgrades will mimic the ways in which units from other codecies have access to wargear modifications on single models. Since aspects do not change their weaponry, the strategic flexibility that can be gained by varying unit upgrades is largely lost to eldar.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Eumerin
08-02-2011, 19:25
Had a stray thought.

Fluff states that Imperial plasma weapons frequently blow up. The Eldar, well aware of that, decided that the risk wasn't worth the gains and created the safer but less powerful Starcannon instead.

Fluff also states that Imperial plasma weapons that are mounted on vehicles have sufficient safeguards built in that they don't spontaneously combust. Ergo, the reason for making the Starcannon weaker isn't needed - provided that it's mounted on a vehicle.

Would it be worthwhile, do you think, to add a "Heavy" Starcannon that is exclusively vehicle mounted?

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 19:48
I'd just make the Starcannon like the Heavy Plasma but with no Gets Hot. There's no point in making it any more different at this point.

While I'm at it, I'd rename every single Imperial Codex that says 'Plasma Cannon' with 'Heavy Plasma'. The Plasma Cannon is a superheavy weapon like a defence laser.

*rant over*

LususNaturae
08-02-2011, 22:18
Had a stray thought.

Fluff states that Imperial plasma weapons frequently blow up. The Eldar, well aware of that, decided that the risk wasn't worth the gains and created the safer but less powerful Starcannon instead.

Fluff also states that Imperial plasma weapons that are mounted on vehicles have sufficient safeguards built in that they don't spontaneously combust. Ergo, the reason for making the Starcannon weaker isn't needed - provided that it's mounted on a vehicle.

Would it be worthwhile, do you think, to add a "Heavy" Starcannon that is exclusively vehicle mounted?

Tau did that one. Hence why Tau Plasma Rifles are S6. Eldar are described as having mastered plasma tech. "...only the Eldar have truly mastered its potential. To the Eldar it is further testament to the idiocy of Man that he has created a weapon that frequently maims or even kills the wielder."

Of course, this just shows the laughably poor job Starcannon rules do at following fluff. Agree with Poseidal - make it like a Heavy Plasma, no "Gets Hot". At least.

Ravariel
09-02-2011, 02:46
My own Eldar wishlists have less to do with new units as with re-working the ones we have. For instance:

Dark Reapers, same stat line, same guns, 25-28 pts/model, squad size 3-8, Exarch power Crack Shot works for entire unit, but only forces a re-roll of successful cover saves. Fast Shot removed (too much like DA), Exarch can also buy the ability to independently target another unit.

Wave Serpent, 65 points, may take Energy Field or Assault ramp for 25 pts. Rest the same.

Falcon: May be chosen as a Dedicated Transport by one squad of HB, FD or Harlies.

Banshees: War Shout power for 15 points grants Furious Charge, Banshee Masks count as assault grenades that reduce enemy's I by 1 in first round of combat. Combined gain of 2I in first round will all but guarantee going first against any opponent outside of Broodlord, keeps the theme of the mask with some actual utility against MEQ, gives you a reason to take mirrorblades (or the now S6 on the charge Ex). Second power can be the reduce WS to 1... call it piercing shriek or something.

Scorps: Infiltrate and MTC for free. Scout and stealth as exarch powers. Cannot choose a dedicated transport (they are the vanguard, sneaky guys after all... kinda obvious when a big, bright tank carries them in).

Hawks: Give their guns Rending.

Walkers: Move to FA

Spears: 30 pts, squads of 3-8, Skilled Rider for free, Laser Lance now 12".

Spiders: Take Away Surprise Assault and give them an exarch power that reduces or eliminates scattering after DS.

Guardians, 18" guns, ability to take a HWP for every 10 models in the unit. 6 or 7pts/dude.

DA: Guns are 24", Shimmershield gives unit a 5+ cover save vs shooting and 5+ Inv in CC. Or maybe just let any unit purchase a Warlock as a unit upgrade?

Shadow Specters: Put them in FA so they're not competing with the Tank that their guns are modeled after.

Wraithlords: 4 wounds, 3 attacks base, 4 with wraithsword.

Wraithguard: Give them a shield/ccw option and give us plastics.

Bonesinger: Similar to tech marine for wraith constructs. Eliminate Wraithsight and restore a lost wound on a roll of 6. Perhaps some other bonus if taken in a Wguard squad. make them a non-IC unit upgrade (separately-targetable if babysitting a 'Lord).

I dig the ideas of multiple wraith constructs (with perhaps an HQ variety, maybe let him count all Wguard as troops (instead of sseer upgrade) and eliminate w-sight?), as well as an Avatar that reflects the Aspect that summoned him. Talk about moneyz for GW with new, large, expensive kits (see: Nids with 4e fexes and 5e trygon variants).

Add in the new hulls that we already know are coming, perhaps some tweaks to psychic powers, and maybe give the Eldar the ability to run during the assault phase to appease the speed argument (which I agree with now that everyone can run) and I think we'd be good.

TheLaughingGod
09-02-2011, 04:42
Here's a friend's take on the Everguard.

Everguard (Cian-Esthi)
0-1 Troops Choice, May Never Be Taken To Meet Compulsory Troops Choices


Everguard walk the lengthy Path of the Sentinel. They are very special warriors, not like the Aspect Warriors who daily defend the Craftworlds and the Eldar people, Everguard have a different purpose. They are the last line of defense for the Eldar. They are the brave souls who hold the Webway gates against endless tides of daemons, the stalwart guardians who stand on Sacred ground on a Maiden world and slay all who would seek to defile it. It is their chosen duty to defend the sacred places of the Eldar, their Craftworlds and their People. They are protected by ancient suits of ceremonial armour from long before the Fall. They have mastered an ancient fighting discipline that too predates the Craftworlds themselves, Saearath-uah, “The spear-staff that lives.” They are armed with their distinctive, long, slender pointed spear-staves. Capable of powerful thrusts and devastating swings and slashes, the weapons are meant for defending choke points and can slay warriors in even the heaviest armour with contemptuous ease. The Everguard are often the final Path chosen by Eldar before their death.
It is said that those who walked the Exile Path often return after millennia and become the Everguard, as only one who has seen the horrors this universe has to offer can truly be ready to defend against them. When they are not standing watch, they act as guides to younger Eldar, counselors and sages. They impart a sort of wisdom gained from lifetimes of observation and experience. Some Everguard become lost on the Path of the Sentinel and become Eternal Guardians. This is most likely to happen near the end of the Eldar's natural lifespan. As they begin to crystallize and become one with the spirits. Once this happens, the Eldar will begin to meld with his own armour and weapons. Becoming fused to them in body as well as spirit. They become strengthened by the ancestor spirits in the armour, and their own physical transformation. Making them near impossible to destroy completely.
Eventually, they fade way. Their bodies become solid crystal, bonded with their armour and weapons and become statues.
The Bonesingers and Everguard tell of a time in the future, when the Craftworlds will all be greatly threatened, and the Eternal Guardians will move with life and purpose again and fall upon their enemies with a terrible and great determination. In the Eldar Myth-cycles, the Everguard are mentioned in Rhana Dandra as implacable sentries who give up their lives in defense of the Webway, taking countless foes with them and buying enough time for the Phoenix Lords to mount their final assault.
The Everguard are rarely encountered by non-Eldar as they restrict themselves to Eldar sacred places. However, they have been known to land in places far from the Eldar, even appearing once in an Imperial Hive City. What they do when they wander from their posts, none but they can say.




Everguard
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 4 3 3 1 5 2 9 2+
Eternal Guardian
6 4 4 4 2 6 3 10 2+

Squad: 10-20 Everguard
Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Everguard Fighting Style, Fleet of Foot, Agile, Perfect Guardian
Wargear: Spear-staff, Armour of Eternity, Everguard Shuriken Catapult


Spear-staff: (Saearath) The trademark Spear-staff is as much a symbol of the Everguard as it is a deadly weapon in the hands of those who know how to use it. It is nearly twice the height of an Eldar, and a fourth of the weapon is a double-edge blade. The weapon itself is crafted of a light, flexible and durable material similar to other Eldar psychoreactive metals. It has a perfect monomolecular edge and has been seen to cut through power armour and the hulls of tanks. The Spear-Staff is a two-handed close combat weapon that grants +1 Strength and counts as a power weapon. In the hands of a model with the Everguard Fighting Style special rule, it also re-rolls failed to-wound rolls and grants +1 Attacks . In addition, it rolls 2D6 armour penetration against units with an armour value.

Armour of Eternity (Sis’Emwapartean) (“Eternal Skin”): This suit of elaborate armour is usually concealed between the robes of the Everguard. It is modeled on the traditional armour of the Tower Guardians in ancient times, and is now primarily used by the Everguard. It is similar in composition to Exarch armour, though perhaps more ornate. It is main distinguishing feature is a crested helm of Wraithbone. It provides a 2+ armour save without denying the Fleet of Foot ability.


Everguard Shuriken Catapult: This is a modified version of the standard Shuriken Catapult employed by Eldar militia and on vehicles. The impelling structure is cut much shorter, decreasing effective range but increasing portability and rate of fire.. However, this can be compensated for by added an improved sight-oracle and stabilizer. The end result is a faster firing Shuriken Catapult with the range of a normal design, but almost half the size. The hail of shurikens they can unleash literally fills the air, shredding anything unlucky enough to fall under the sheer volume of fire. They are typically concealed beneath the robes of the Everguard.


Everguard Catapult
18” S4 AP5
Assault 2, Rending



Perfect Guardian: The Everguard have already seen much of the galaxy and have been instilled with a deep sense of duty and devotion to the Eldar race, and put the defense of their people above their own lives. Everguard are Stubborn and confer this USR to any ICs who join them. Additionally, any Independent Character who joins the Everguard, may never be targeted, or have wounds allocated against them in anyway until they either leave the squad or the number of ICs in the unit is greater than the number of Everguard. They throw themselves in the way of any and all attacks, trusting on their skills to protect themselves and their wards. Finally, when Everguard claim a location to hold, they must be slain to a man to move them from that spot. No unit or model may ever contest an objective claimed by a unit of Everguard until the Everguard move far enough away that they cannot claim it or are destroyed.

Everguard Fighting Style: The Fighting style of the Everguard has it's roots in prefall Eldar, and shares some similarities with the mysterious Harlequins. Those who know it's secrets engage in battle as the warriors who fought in the War in Heaven once did. They are taught to make the weapon an perfect extension of the body and senses. They see their own moves and their enemies moves before they happen and watch the entire battle unfold before the first blow is struck. They become masters of defense and counterattack using body language, poise and guards that invite the enemy to attack prematurely. They developed defense known as Trilhtren'azhin “The blade that cleaves the spear” They gain +1 initative, count as having defensive grenades and if armed with a power weapon (or a weapon that counts as one) they gain a 4+ invulnerable save.

Ravariel
09-02-2011, 05:14
Sweet jeezus, those would have to be 40+ points to be balanced.

TheRatsInTheWalls
09-02-2011, 05:21
Don't these Everguard basically take the current role of Dire Avengers and add the notion of Eternal Guard from the Wood Elf Fantasy army?
Remember also that only Farseers crystallize like you describe.

TheLaughingGod
09-02-2011, 05:45
Don't these Everguard basically take the current role of Dire Avengers and add the notion of Eternal Guard from the Wood Elf Fantasy army?
Remember also that only Farseers crystallize like you describe.

Not exactly. They're defensive. Dire Avengers are more flexible, and cheaper. And can be compulsory Troops. Rather, Everguard would be more like how Terminators are to Tacticals. They don't take the same role, but they ARE more expensive.

They're Troops to make them scoring (so they can hold a position) though, I suppose they could be Elites (or even HQ) with the ability to score.

Eternal Guard, yes.

As for crystallization, all that's known is that Farseers crystallize, not that ONLY that path has that quirk.

Hendarion
09-02-2011, 06:20
Really nice post. Although I think that unit is extremely powerful. I'd expect 40+ points, although when comparing them to CC Terminators, 35 should be fine, since they are only S4, T3 and can't deep strike.

Dr.Clock
09-02-2011, 07:09
Really great idea... I like the fact that it isn't just an aspect.

One suggestion might be that this unit takes the place of the long-discussed combat WG.

Thinking of them as part-construct, part-eldar is very enticing. I'd just give them straight-up WG stats with a power-weapon, 2A and defensive grenades (really nice touch) with counter-attack.

Similar to WG they are a unit of 5-10, with 10 being available as a troop choice. Always count as scoring.

Not sure the Catapult is necessary... but it might go nicely as a smaller version of the WL's secondary weapons. Options for TL catapult, single flamer or melta???

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

TheRatsInTheWalls
09-02-2011, 07:17
Here's a friend's take on the Everguard.

Everguard (Cian-Esthi)
...
Everguard Shuriken Catapult: This is a modified version of the standard Shuriken Catapult employed by Eldar militia and on vehicles. The impelling structure is cut much shorter, decreasing effective range but increasing portability and rate of fire.. However, this can be compensated for by added an improved sight-oracle and stabilizer. The end result is a faster firing Shuriken Catapult with the range of a normal design, but almost half the size. The hail of shurikens they can unleash literally fills the air, shredding anything unlucky enough to fall under the sheer volume of fire. They are typically concealed beneath the robes of the Everguard.


Everguard Catapult
18 S4 AP5
Assault 2, Rending

...

This means they basically do everything Dire Avengers do, but better. The only thing Avengers have over them is Fleet and cost.

Sorry, I don't mean to be a downer. I like the idea of a tough defensive unit, but this really is too much.

TheLaughingGod
09-02-2011, 07:33
Sorry, I don't mean to be a downer. I like the idea of a tough defensive unit, but this really is too much.

Well, I think that was chosen to make it so they could hold a position and enemy units couldn't just blast them from rapid fire range with no reprise.

TheRatsInTheWalls
09-02-2011, 07:38
Well, I think that was chosen to make it so they could hold a position and enemy units couldn't just blast them from rapid fire range with no reprise.

Because the Eldar never use other units to support each other? I'd say a nearby unit of Warwalkers, or even well placed Guardian Defenders could do that well enough.
Removing the guns would cut down on the cost of the Everguard as well.

Hendarion
09-02-2011, 07:42
Removing the guns would cut down the costs of the Everguard itself, but will create new costs as you will require a Guardian squad as assistance (as you said yourself).
The Everguard had been designed on purpose that way by TheLaughingGod and I think with that concept in the mind, it is a great result. Sadly GW will never take it over or not under 55 points per model :p

Paedan
09-02-2011, 15:38
Quick question: Has anyone else read the "Path of the Warrior" novel?

Spoiler Alert....

... cos inside there is mention of an Aspect called "Crystal Dragons". Obviously, I'm hoping that it isn't a typo for Fire Dragons. For my Eldar wishlist, I would want an Aspect of close up warriors, like 40K versions of the Swordmasters of Hoeth. They can be like the "good" version of Incubi, wielding large two-handed Crystal Swords (you have to admit, the current mechanics of the Incubi very closely resemble the Aspect Warriors with an Exarch mechanic).

naloth
09-02-2011, 15:45
The only real addition that's needed is the inclusion of the FW units so that the models they have produced could be fielded as intended. Other than that the Eldar book just needs some FOC positions altered, exarch powers modified, and point tweaks.

Poseidal
09-02-2011, 15:49
I don't think it's likely they'll be seen (and probably more of a slicing orb flavour aspect), but regardless I wouldn't like to see them as an Incubi clone.

TheRatsInTheWalls
09-02-2011, 17:58
Quick question: Has anyone else read the "Path of the Warrior" novel?

Spoiler Alert....

... cos inside there is mention of an Aspect called "Crystal Dragons". Obviously, I'm hoping that it isn't a typo for Fire Dragons. For my Eldar wishlist, I would want an Aspect of close up warriors, like 40K versions of the Swordmasters of Hoeth. They can be like the "good" version of Incubi, wielding large two-handed Crystal Swords (you have to admit, the current mechanics of the Incubi very closely resemble the Aspect Warriors with an Exarch mechanic).

There is a lot of fluff/rules which suggests that Incubi are essentially a Dark Eldar aspect shrine. They have a special character with Phoenix Lord stats, and even worship Khaine.
Were the Crystal Dragons described in the book in any detail?


Removing the guns would cut down the costs of the Everguard itself, but will create new costs as you will require a Guardian squad as assistance (as you said yourself).
The Everguard had been designed on purpose that way by TheLaughingGod and I think with that concept in the mind, it is a great result. Sadly GW will never take it over or not under 55 points per model :p

I admit that the concept has some serious potential. It has way too many rules and bonuses for my liking though. Why not just T5-6, 2+, A2 with powerweapons and counter attack? Maybe no Fleet and something that actually penalizes them for charging?
A unit you are likely to buy anyway does not increase the price of the unit it supports. Eldar are intended to work that way (although it's a bit debatable about how much they actually do).
Still, I'm glad we're actually discussing a wishlisted option rather than just reading each other's posts and moving on.

Eumerin
09-02-2011, 19:32
Were the Crystal Dragons described in the book in any detail?


No. They merely get a quick mention as an aspect, and we don't know anything about them beyond a name.

Dr.Clock
09-02-2011, 21:10
I think Poseidal brings up a good point: just porting in an incubi clone must be avoided at all costs.

Although: WFB has High Elf Sword-Masters and Dark Elf Executioners... their roles overlap quite a bit.

Still: Scorpions are closer to the Incubi aspect - it is hinted in certain places that Arhra is the progenitor of the Incubi.

We need to start thinking outside the box methinks, if we are going to come up with a unit that doesn't tread too hard on other units' roles. The Everguard seem to be somewhere between Seer Council, Wraithguard and DA... what they bring to the table, though, is effective power-weapons. Eldar for some reason struggle to field decent numbers of these.

Thinking more broadly about possible battlefield roles might be helpful...

It appears that Eldar are lagging slightly when it comes to 'extreme' infiltrators and deep-striking.

Most lists have better access to deep-strike... we have it available only in Fast Attack. This makes sense from a certain perspective: Autarchs can make our reserves more accuarte and the aggregate speed of lists allows reserves to quickly reach their objectives. Still, it seems a little odd that Eldar, who have access to the Webway, are so limited in this fashion.

Likewise Infiltrators/Scouts. We have 2 units with access to infiltrate and one scout unit. Used together, they are pretty good, but with no real 'ace in the hole' Deepstrike or bizarre deployment units, you can't really build an effective non-linear list.

Slicing Orbs or somesuch: could make them our answer to Ymgarls or Mandrakes. Give them poison weapons to differentiate them from both banshees and Scorpions and give them a non-risky deepstrike ability. Alternatively, make them a short-ranged horde-clearance unit to keep your pathfinders alive - Eldar Poison Wind Globadiers???

I just realized that no basic aspect warrior has a blast or template weapon.

The Faceless: Aspect profile, 4+ armour
Armament: Slicing Orbs - 12" Assault1 Blast, S4 AP5, Rending
Defensive Grenades
Special Rules: Infiltrate
in CC: S4, rending (1A)
Options: Exarch may take Stealth, Hit and Run, Assault 2 Slicing Orbs and/or +2A in CC (for 4 Attacks before charging)

These Aspect Warriors follow Khaine in his aspect of Dissembler, focussing on misleading and confusing the opponent. Known to operate largely alone, far in advance of most Eldar formations, the Faceless attack and evade with equal ease. While their movements may seem unconsidered to the untrained eye, they are always aware of the needs of the broader Eldar strategy, drawing off the opponent's strength in fruitless pursuit, or striking mercilessly at the most vulnerable areas.

The favoured weapon of the Faceless is the Slicing Orb. A self-contained weapon of extraordinary power, it conveys the deceptive ethos of the Faceless. At first appearance, a simple crystal or glass orb, when thrown it explodes with deadly result. Filling the air with a deadly mixture of toxins, corrosive acids and slashing crystal fragments, even the most sophisticated filtration systems can be overcome by the variety of caustic substances the orbs unleash.

Assaulting a position held by the Slicing Orbs is a daunting task. Immune as they are to the effects of their own weapons, they have no fear of throwing orbs directly into the faces of their assailants or simply at their own feet, the better to effect an escape from brutish physical combat.

Elites choice.

Rationale: I think these guys could go great in a Scorpion/Ranger/Spider infantry list - they bring some decent close-in firepower to supplement long-range sniper fire, and they can coordinate well with scorpions to draw the enemy into ambushes. They are something of a threat to everything - but have quite limited range.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

CelestialDragonKing
09-02-2011, 21:39
Many have mentioned the inclusion of a Bonesinger. Which I think is cool. But if he's not an IC how about the inclusion of their version of servitors? Small wraithbone constructs similar Wraithlord/guard. They help the Bonesinger to perform his work by lifting, guarding, and fixing things. Size-wise I'm thinking of the old hunter/killer Ghostwarriors from RT days.

Note: I think maybe there should be a thread of it's own about Eldar aspect creations.

AlexHolker
09-02-2011, 21:59
I just realized that no basic aspect warrior has a blast or template weapon.
This is deliberate - the Warp Spiders had template weapons up until the start of 3rd, when GW decided it took too long to work out. If you want a blast or template Aspect, give the Warp Spiders theirs back.

Xarian
09-02-2011, 22:10
This is deliberate - the Warp Spiders had template weapons up until the start of 3rd, when GW decided it took too long to work out. If you want a blast or template Aspect, give the Warp Spiders theirs back.

As it stands now, Spiders just pump out a lot of S6 shots (which is effective but overlaps quite a bit with other units in the army).

Making the weapons use a template is not a bad idea at all. If you want to get closer to their original wording, make them wound against I, as well, and perhaps the Rending rule to bring them in line with the Night Spinner. Raise the cost a bit and lower the unit size and you're looking at a very similar approximation (though not nearly as ridiculous) as the 2nd edition versions.