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Frostea
26-01-2011, 11:02
Disclaimer: This thread is meant for power-gamers and rule lawyers.

The golden bossman may be a badass-looking character, but points-wise he seems to be really overpriced. I have yet to use him so here's what I think of him.

Lets break it down:

He is an assault marine with the addition of...

(Points are estimates)
4 extra WS - 15pt (Most assault troops have at least WS 4, therefore still 4+ to hit for them. Ergo, pointless)
1 extra BS (pointless, he does not have a ranged weapon)
1 extra S - 15pt
2 extra W - 30pt
2 extra I - 30pt
4 extra A - 45pt (Assault marines get the pistol bonus, Sanguinor does not since Glaive Encarmine is two-handed. Factored this into the point)
2 extra L - 10pt (He's Fearless for morale purposes anyways)

Eternal Warrior - 20pt (Average number of wounds for a god)
Fearless - 5pt (Losing AtsKnF makes me wonder if this is a +pt or -pt)
Furious Charge - 5pt

Glaive Encarmine - 15pt
Artificer Armor - 15pt
Avenging Angel - 10pt (Dubious benefits - Mech/Horde armies will typically not care)
Blessing - 10pt (Bad. D.C/Sang Guards/Honour Guards don't get sgts)
Unyielding Will - 15pt (Alright space jesus, you get a storm shield. How impressive.)
Aura of Fervour - 45pt (Chapter banner for 6". Not bad, but all you need is a vindicator or similar to ruin your day)

Total: 288 (Including base assault marine cost)

Since he does not have the I.C. special rule, nor any real rules to help him survive massed fire (T4 for a "Mortal-become-God"? Seriously?) I would subtract at least 20% off that total.

Any thoughts about this guy?

Bunnahabhain
26-01-2011, 11:21
And the rules question is?

shadow hunter
26-01-2011, 11:25
I dunno his normal cost, and I've not seen him play.

I think a true cost is how beneficial something is to the rest of the army. Is he in a squad or does he have to be alone?

You dont have to choose him. He's a special character I am guessing. Just leave it out, problem solved.

AngelofSorrow
26-01-2011, 11:27
I have to disagree IMNSHO sanguinor is absolutely amazing.
Having used him numerous times his blessing and aura are invaluable.
He is also a complete monster in combat. I have yet to lose him in a game and his abilities and combat prowess have time and again pulled my marines out of sticky situations.

The Marshel
26-01-2011, 11:45
I believe you have under vaulued furious charge. glaive encarmie = relic blade right? striking at s8 isn't exactly soft. you're wounding most monstrous creatures on at least a 3+ and instant deathing a vast majority of the multi wound models in the game, at initiative.

speaking of initiative, 7 with furious charge will outspeed anything that isnt an elder combat character. being able to throw out 6 s7-8 attacks before the opponent is again a lovely advantage.

fearless isnt as good as atsknf, but i'm not sure where you are getting these numbers in the first place. who says he pays 5 points for fearless?

eternal warrior on a character that cant join units is worth a fair bit more then 20 points imo.

I don't know what avenging angle does. is that one of the "permanently modify you opponents hq's profile" rules?

between ho the various benefits work together and the army surrounding a profile, its very hard to individually value each stat and rule of any one unit. one particular thing i think you have failed to note is how rules and stats combine.

Assuming i'm not mistaken about glaives being the blood angel eqiv of relic blades, the combination of furious charge, already high I and the ability to strike at s8 at that I is worth more then the 50 points you list it at. also not that while everything still hits you on a 4+, you hit a lot more on a 3+, which will often turn 3 hits into 4 hits (assume charge, so 6 attacks) against a hive tyrant or a broadside squad, that could make all the difference.

Also, the rules forum is more of a warseer FAQ. this is more of a general thread

Bloodknight
26-01-2011, 11:50
Eternal Warrior - 20pt (Average number of wounds for a god)

Why you had to buy EW in the last SM and CSM codex it was 35 points.

AngelofSorrow
26-01-2011, 12:09
Blades encarmines add no strength
Sanguinor is only S6 on the charge

HerrDusty
26-01-2011, 12:15
I believe you have under vaulued furious charge. glaive encarmie = relic blade right? striking at s8 isn't exactly soft. you're wounding most monstrous creatures on at least a 3+ and instant deathing a vast majority of the multi wound models in the game, at initiative.


Glaive Encarmines aren't Relic Blades, they are just Master Crafted two handed power weapons (they're a bit naff, really).

Also, Relic Blades strike at S6, they do not add to the wielder's strength, so Furious Charge will not make a Relic Blade (or any other weapon that strikes at a set strength) any stronger, as per the rulebook FAQ:


Q: Does the Furious Charge special rule give +1 Strength
to attacks made with a close combat weapon that strikes
at a specific strength value? For example are hits from
Gabriel Sethʼs Blood Reaver resolved at Strength 8 or 9
when he has Furious Charge? (p75)
A: No. Hits from Gabriel Sethʼs Blood Reaver would still be
resolved at Strength 8.

Frostea
26-01-2011, 12:45
And the rules question is?

Its more of a "How does his points justify his rules" kind of thread (or vice versa), not purely a rule-based one. :)


I believe you have under vaulued furious charge. glaive encarmie = relic blade right? striking at s8 isn't exactly soft. you're wounding most monstrous creatures on at least a 3+ and instant deathing a vast majority of the multi wound models in the game, at initiative.

Glaive Encarmine is a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. The 5th edition version of master-crafting means you get to reroll one to-hit dice.


speaking of initiative, 7 with furious charge will outspeed anything that isnt an elder combat character. being able to throw out 6 s7-8 attacks before the opponent is again a lovely advantage.
Furious charge was 3 points on veterans in 4th marine codices. I wrote 5 points to make it easier counting. Morever, furious charge can be granted by sanguinary priests (apothecaries) for approx 15 points (refer to honour guards), along with FnP. and D.C models get it as default. Not to mention that ork boyz get it as default. :D


fearless isnt as good as atsknf, but i'm not sure where you are getting these numbers in the first place. who says he pays 5 points for fearless?

As mentioned, the points are estimates. Since Sanguinor already has Ld 10, the Fearless rule naturally has less weight. If you do not believe that it is worth 5 points, do justify with example.


eternal warrior on a character that cant join units is worth a fair bit more then 20 points imo.
So, Eternal Warrior on an I.C is worth a lot less? That makes no sense. :wtf:


I don't know what avenging angle does. is that one of the "permanently modify you opponents hq's profile" rules?

It allows Sanguinor to reroll to-hit and to-wound against a specified enemy HQ unit when he is placed onto the board. The rule you are thinking about is Dante's Death Mask of Sanguinius.


Why you had to buy EW in the last SM and CSM codex it was 35 points.
That was generally for I.C.s and by the way, Adamantine Cloak does not protect against force weapons :)

Also, I mentioned that Sanguinor does not have four wounds, thus the weight on his Eternal Warrior goes down, IMO. But you do have a point. Still, consider that even if I upped that part it will not make space jesus more costly (in my estimated costs) by a large percentage.


I have to disagree IMNSHO sanguinor is absolutely amazing.
Having used him numerous times his blessing and aura are invaluable.
He is also a complete monster in combat. I have yet to lose him in a game and his abilities and combat prowess have time and again pulled my marines out of sticky situations.

Yeah, I think we can all agree that a 6" aura of +1A is pretty sweet. But how do normally you deal with the likes of large blasts? Also, I fail to see how useful the blessing is. What if it is randomed onto, say, your tactical/scout squad sgt?

Nocculum
26-01-2011, 12:59
Then your Tactical Sergeant has 4 attacks, an extra wound and becomes badass?

Frostea
26-01-2011, 13:32
Then your Tactical Sergeant has 4 attacks, an extra wound and becomes badass?

Definitely, the said sergeant will kickass in CC. The problem is that you'd probably already have specialist CC elements, and the tact/scout squads are there for fire support. Therefore, the blessing has a chance to be wasted unless you do not take any of them.

insectum7
26-01-2011, 17:19
The sum is greater than the parts. It's like more expensive weapons for Devastators. Because they can get more, each one costs more, so your estimations of what each of those items/characteristics are worth is off.

Bookwrak
26-01-2011, 17:31
Disclaimer: This thread is meant for power-gamers and rule lawyers.

The golden bossman may be a badass-looking character, but points-wise he seems to be really overpriced. I have yet to use him so here's what I think of him.

Lets break it down:

He is an assault marine with the addition of...

(Points are estimates)
4 extra WS - 15pt (Most assault troops have at least WS 4, therefore still 4+ to hit for them. Ergo, pointless)
1 extra BS (pointless, he does not have a ranged weapon)
1 extra S - 15pt
2 extra W - 30pt
2 extra I - 30pt
4 extra A - 45pt (Assault marines get the pistol bonus, Sanguinor does not since Glaive Encarmine is two-handed. Factored this into the point)
2 extra L - 10pt (He's Fearless for morale purposes anyways)

Eternal Warrior - 20pt (Average number of wounds for a god)
Fearless - 5pt (Losing AtsKnF makes me wonder if this is a +pt or -pt)
Furious Charge - 5pt

Glaive Encarmine - 15pt
Artificer Armor - 15pt
Avenging Angel - 10pt (Dubious benefits - Mech/Horde armies will typically not care)
Blessing - 10pt (Bad. D.C/Sang Guards/Honour Guards don't get sgts)
Unyielding Will - 15pt (Alright space jesus, you get a storm shield. How impressive.)
Aura of Fervour - 45pt (Chapter banner for 6". Not bad, but all you need is a vindicator or similar to ruin your day)

Total: 288 (Including base assault marine cost)

Since he does not have the I.C. special rule, nor any real rules to help him survive massed fire (T4 for a "Mortal-become-God"? Seriously?) I would subtract at least 20% off that total.

Any thoughts about this guy?
His price is about right as it is, for the reasons you laid about above. A 20% reduction would be ridiculous for what he brings to the table.

Nezalhualixtlan
26-01-2011, 17:50
He also needs to be reasonably priced relative to other units in the codex, internal balance is important. Currently I think his price reflects that. He isn't an obvious choice like he would be at your estimate * .8, but he is also not hideously overpriced to the point you would not think of fielding him, I think that's means he falls within the acceptable realm of tolerance for appropriate cost range.

Chimaera2000
26-01-2011, 18:41
Like you'd imagine, the Sanguinor's cost-effectiveness depends greatly on the points level of your army. It's accurate to say that Mephiston is generally a more effective close combatant at a lower point cost than the Sanguinor. It's inaccurate to say that Mephiston will always contribute more to your army than the Sanguinor; his power is in his army buffs, not solely in close-combat or durability.

The usual example I've heard is having the Sanguinor run alongside one or more units of Assault Terminators. If you cram a seven-man squad inside your Crusader (leaving room for a Priest), you're granting yourself an additional seven attacks in each assault phase. As a comparison, if you had an Independent Character who was hitting with seven S9 thunder hammer attacks on the charge, you'd be pretty stoked. That is part of the Sanguinor's offensive output beyond the S6 power weapon attacks he's dealing out himself... and the higher your points level, the better his ability gets.

Likewise, I've found his Sergeant-buffing ability to be highly useful. Of course it would be lovely if the selection wasn't random, but it's still a great bonus. An extra Wound gives you that much more insurance against your (typically) most important squad member being sniped. The extra WS will be the difference between hitting on a 3+ instead of a 4+ against most infantry, generating 33% more hits. If he's armed with a power weapon, that I5 gives you the opportunity to strike down a few models before they can even attack. And if he's "only" armed with a power fist, slamming another S8 attack against any target is another wound blasted off a Monstrous Creature or another Penetrating Hit dealt against an enemy vehicle.

My in-game experience with the Sanguinor is that he can die easily and definitely needs a Priest babysister at all times. My experience has likewise been that his army boosts can (and will) win you games with the right list.

Designer891
26-01-2011, 19:06
Wait, all these abilities and you think he is worth 20% less?

I play Eldar/Dark Eldar and this guy makes any of our high point ICs/Characters look silly.

At a reduced cost of 20% that makes him:

Same cost as Asureman who only has EW and a +4 inv and rerolls in CC. That's it, he doesn't buff anyone other then having standard exarch powers and can't join any units that arn't his aspect. Not to mention S:4 3 wounds

Same cost as Drazhar: possible S:6 furious charge 4 attacks same toughness and other rules as Asur above minus a +4 inv save.

Cheaper then vect, has some cool rules great in CC but no Etrenal warrior T:3 can die from 1 S:6 shot.

I see the Sanguinor as being better then all of above which cost around 230-240 points. he has far more abilities as well as being very hard to kill. Now its impossible to compare armies as they buff different but I think it's obvious the Sanguinor is very nasty..not only does he have awesome CC skills and buff other marines he is pretty hard to kill even for a T:4 character.

bork da basher
26-01-2011, 19:09
hes overcosted when you place him next to his direct competitor in the codex mephiston who for 25pts cheaper is 10 times as useful and generally all around better in every way.

Nezalhualixtlan
26-01-2011, 19:18
hes overcosted when you place him next to his direct competitor in the codex mephiston who for 25pts cheaper is 10 times as useful and generally all around better in every way.

Except as mentioned Chimaera2000, which is a significant difference and potential benefit that can make the Sanguinor trump Mephiston. You are thinking too linearly.

Designer891
26-01-2011, 19:59
hes overcosted when you place him next to his direct competitor in the codex mephiston who for 25pts cheaper is 10 times as useful and generally all around better in every way.

That's a Codex issue, why punish other armies with a cheaper price just cause BA have other good HQs to choose from.

ehlijen
26-01-2011, 21:28
Lets break it down:

He is an assault marine with the addition of...

[I](Points are estimates)
4 extra WS - 15pt (Most assault troops have at least WS 4, therefore still 4+ to hit for them. Ergo, pointless)
1 extra BS (pointless, he does not have a ranged weapon)
1 extra S - 15pt
2 extra W - 30pt
2 extra I - 30pt
4 extra A - 45pt (Assault marines get the pistol bonus, Sanguinor does not since Glaive Encarmine is two-handed. Factored this into the point)
2 extra L - 10pt (He's Fearless for morale purposes anyways)

Eternal Warrior - 20pt (Average number of wounds for a god)
Fearless - 5pt (Losing AtsKnF makes me wonder if this is a +pt or -pt)
Furious Charge - 5pt

Glaive Encarmine - 15pt
Artificer Armor - 15pt
Avenging Angel - 10pt (Dubious benefits - Mech/Horde armies will typically not care)
Blessing - 10pt (Bad. D.C/Sang Guards/Honour Guards don't get sgts)
Unyielding Will - 15pt (Alright space jesus, you get a storm shield. How impressive.)
Aura of Fervour - 45pt (Chapter banner for 6". Not bad, but all you need is a vindicator or similar to ruin your day)



You basically made up points cost on the spot to suit your expectation.

Let's try it with my opinion on what stuff's worth :)

Let's start with a captain as the base (much closer to how this guy operates):

2 extra points of WS: This guy hits Logan and Calgar on 3s while they hit on 4s. It's an offensive upgrade, not a defensive one. It's about a 16% increase in attack and a 16% increase in defense against WS3 or less (which btw includes carnifeces). 25 points
No extra BS
1 extra S, fair enough, at 15 points
Same wounds, but EW and Storm shield + Arti armour = 70 total (shields 20 points in C:BA and Arti armour 15 points in C:SM, EW 35 for space wolves
Jump pack: 25 points
FC: 15 points (the 3 points in past models were per model if bought for squads, no single model ever paid that little for it).
Fearless: No points as ATSKNF is about as good.

Glaive 15 points.
Avenging angel: 25 points. This is good. Even horde armies often have warbosses or hive tyrants leading them and this guy is meant to take out beasties like that.
Blessing: 50 points (if you assign blanket values to all the sanguinors stat bumps, those blanket values should be used here as well, and the sarge gets 4 stat bumps)
Aura of fervor: 30 points (chapter banner)

Not an IC: -50 (It does make him a lot more vulnerable)

Leaves me with 340 points. Ie a lot more than he costs. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in between, probably near his actual cost.

Xarian
26-01-2011, 21:38
The Aura of Fervor is probably the sole reason why he costs so much.

With regards to some other things:
Ld 10 seems pretty standard on anything that has Fearless.
ATSKNF is a bit better than Fearless, so that's a strike against him
High WS is more for defensive purposes than offensive purposes (consider the Eldar Avatar with WS 10)
Even with Eternal Warrior he seems a little squishy (thanks to not having the Independent Character rule and his average T)

Take away Aura of Fervor and he's quite obviously overcosted. With Aura, though... I don't know, probably still too expensive. GW probably expects that you will keep 3 or so squads close to him so you will get a bunch of extra attacks, but as you said, that tends to be a tactical liability.

Sarevok
26-01-2011, 22:03
I think Orks are overpriced, they are Space Marines with

(Points are estimates)
2 less BS - (-10 pt)
1 less S - (-15pt)
2 less I - (-30 pt)
1 more A (+15 pt)
1 less Ld (-10 pt)
3 less Sv (-45pt)

clearly Orks should be -80 points each
Ive never played Orks but so what, you cant argue with the cost formula

Designer891
26-01-2011, 22:34
I think Orks are overpriced, they are Space Marines with

(Points are estimates)
2 less BS - (-10 pt)
1 less S - (-15pt)
2 less I - (-30 pt)
1 more A (+15 pt)
1 less Ld (-10 pt)
3 less Sv (-45pt)

clearly Orks should be -80 points each
Ive never played Orks but so what, you cant argue with the cost formula

You made me laugh a little :D

Bunnahabhain
26-01-2011, 22:37
And on those grounds, my Guardsmen are -100pts each, and so giving me thousands of points to spend on Russ squadrons and vendettas. And chimeras. And some more chimeras. What a shame....

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
26-01-2011, 23:29
I can't wait to see the cost comparison of the Sanguinor v. the Eldar Avatar.

Minsc
26-01-2011, 23:43
(Points are estimates)
4 extra WS - 15pt (Most assault troops have at least WS 4, therefore still 4+ to hit for them. Ergo, pointless)
1 extra BS (pointless, he does not have a ranged weapon)
1 extra S - 15pt
2 extra W - 30pt
2 extra I - 30pt
4 extra A - 45pt (Assault marines get the pistol bonus, Sanguinor does not since Glaive Encarmine is two-handed. Factored this into the point)
2 extra L - 10pt (He's Fearless for morale purposes anyways)


I'm sorry OP, but comparisons like theese are just silly.

Let's forget about sanguinior and compare a assault marines to a captain with a jumppack (125 pts), using your calculations shall we?

Base marine cost with jumppack (XX pts)
2 extra WS (10 pts - probably worth more on a IC.)
1 extra BS (5 pts)
2 extra wounds (30 pts)
1 extra I (15 pts)
2 extra A (22,5 pts)
2 extra Ld (10 pts)
Sum: ~110 pts. Clearly the actual captain is overpriced!?

Korraz
27-01-2011, 00:05
Well, the captain is overpriced and kinda useless. The saving grace for him his the Relic Blade in the vanilla book. In BA he is just plain useless.
Just like the Blade Encarmine...

Nocculum
27-01-2011, 05:00
The problem with the Captain is not that he's overpriced, but more that the librarian is horribly underpriced.

Frostea
27-01-2011, 08:00
You basically made up points cost on the spot to suit your expectation.

Let's try it with my opinion on what stuff's worth :)

Let's start with a captain as the base (much closer to how this guy operates):

2 extra points of WS: This guy hits Logan and Calgar on 3s while they hit on 4s. It's an offensive upgrade, not a defensive one. It's about a 16% increase in attack and a 16% increase in defense against WS3 or less (which btw includes carnifeces). 25 points
No extra BS
1 extra S, fair enough, at 15 points
Same wounds, but EW and Storm shield + Arti armour = 70 total (shields 20 points in C:BA and Arti armour 15 points in C:SM, EW 35 for space wolves
Jump pack: 25 points
FC: 15 points (the 3 points in past models were per model if bought for squads, no single model ever paid that little for it).
Fearless: No points as ATSKNF is about as good.

Glaive 15 points.
Avenging angel: 25 points. This is good. Even horde armies often have warbosses or hive tyrants leading them and this guy is meant to take out beasties like that.
Blessing: 50 points (if you assign blanket values to all the sanguinors stat bumps, those blanket values should be used here as well, and the sarge gets 4 stat bumps)
Aura of fervor: 30 points (chapter banner)

Not an IC: -50 (It does make him a lot more vulnerable)

Leaves me with 340 points. Ie a lot more than he costs. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in between, probably near his actual cost.

Captain is a bad point of comparison. Captains already come with iron halos (4+ invul). In addition, they come with the I.C. rule as default. It is difficult to gauge the worth of I.C, therefore the need for this thread to begin with.

Avenging angel is still useless against mech. Depending on the situation, it can be awesome or suck. Therefore I'll put much less weight in it since 5th ed is about spamming vehicles for the win.

As for the blessing, you did not factor in the random roll and the fact that key CC units are unable to make use of it, unless terminators are included in the equation. And then that means you need a land raider to transport them. More costs that could be better spent else where.

The aura should cost more since chapter banner is limited to the squad only. (And attached ICs) I think you are placing far too little weight on the I.C. status.

Picture it this way: If he has the I.C. rule, you can place him with say, a 10 men assault/D.C./Sanguinary squad. This gives him ablative wounds against shooting, and at the same time, guarantee that his aura will benefit at least one squad.


I think Orks are overpriced, they are Space Marines with

(Points are estimates)
2 less BS - (-10 pt)
1 less S - (-15pt)
2 less I - (-30 pt)
1 more A (+15 pt)
1 less Ld (-10 pt)
3 less Sv (-45pt)

clearly Orks should be -80 points each
Ive never played Orks but so what, you cant argue with the cost formula

You are missing the point of the thread, which is to determine why Sanguinor is so costly for what he does. You do not have to agree with the points assignment, but you aren't providing a realistic point of comparison to facilitate your argument. And yes I know what are trolls. :p

jumai
27-01-2011, 21:02
This looks fun. Can I try?

Sanguinor vs Daemon Prince; wings, warptime, mark of tzeentch, bolt of change

Shared: eternal warrior, jump pack, fearless, non-IC

Sanguinor: +1 WS, +1 A, 1 reroll
Daemon Prince: +1 Str
(2.6 vs 2.2 wounds to MEq not counting special rules)

Sanguinor: 2+/3++
Daemon Prince: 3+/4++, +1 T, +1 W
(36 vs 36 bolter hits, 10.8 vs 9.6 pfist hits, 21.6 vs 9.6 krak missile hits, 21.6 vs 14.4 autocannon hits, 54 vs 72 lasgun hits, 18 vs 24 S4 power weapon hits)

Sanguinor: Aura of Chapter Banner, Furious Charge
Daemon Prince: Warptime
(call it a wash, about +2 MEq kills each?)

Sanguinor: assault grenades, +1 I
Daemon Prince: move through cover?
(sanguinor wins)

Sanguinor: choppy vs IC's
Daemon Prince: choppy vs vehicles
(call it a wash?)

Sanguinor: sgt buff
Daemon Prince: bolt of change (24" S8 AP1 assault 1)
(mean effect that sometimes does nothing, wash?)

Sanguinor: descent of angels
Daemon Prince: perils of the warp! oh wait...


Sanguinor: +75 points


Sanguinor is situationally tougher, and situationally MUCH tougher near a blood chalice, is reliable to deep strike, never hurts himself, and can cause single rounds of massive aura payoff. He's probably a bit easier to block LoS to, I guess. He can charge into cover without going last.

The Daemon Prince is more able to threaten AV and operate alone.


Assuming the DP is fairly costed (arguable), Sanguinor looks a bit pricey.

Vedar
27-01-2011, 22:17
Blood Angel players should be happy they get two mini Daemon Princes. It is all the rage now, even the IG get a mini MC, Cononel Straken.

I'd say The Sanguinor point is just about right if people are complaining about it and still taking him. Once you make him too cheap he becomes a no brainer like Eldrad and Vulkan.

Designer891
27-01-2011, 22:52
Once you make him too cheap he becomes a no brainer like Eldrad and Vulkan.

Well Eldrad is only because Eldar have nothing in the way of a solid HQ other then the Avatar pts wise so not sure that is fair. If we beef up a farseer he comes out to around the same points as Eldrad and still kinda sucky. Once Eldar get a new codex with some real HQ choices you wont see him much I am sure. FYI I never take him myself but i can see why people do to be competitive.

ehlijen
28-01-2011, 05:18
Captain is a bad point of comparison. Captains already come with iron halos (4+ invul). In addition, they come with the I.C. rule as default. It is difficult to gauge the worth of I.C, therefore the need for this thread to begin with.


Why does that make it a bad base for comparison? They are both HQ choices that are single models. I took into account the Storm shield vs iron halo by using the captain's cost for it. Yes, he pays 20 points for a shield. And I did also take into account the IC status. If it's 'difficult to gauge' then so is everything you say about the difference between a random squad member from the troops slot and an HQ slaying HQ unit.



Avenging angel is still useless against mech. Depending on the situation, it can be awesome or suck. Therefore I'll put much less weight in it since 5th ed is about spamming vehicles for the win.


Even mech armies have HQ choices that are not vehicles. If he keeps his HQ unit inside a tank out of fear of you, he's not using it to kill stuff either. Win for you.




As for the blessing, you did not factor in the random roll and the fact that key CC units are unable to make use of it, unless terminators are included in the equation. And then that means you need a land raider to transport them. More costs that could be better spent else where.


What about assault squads? Your troops that are going to be in the thick of fighting? The ones who can use the boost the most because they're not alraedy elites?




The aura should cost more since chapter banner is limited to the squad only. (And attached ICs) I think you are placing far too little weight on the I.C. status.


Fair enough.




Picture it this way: If he has the I.C. rule, you can place him with say, a 10 men assault/D.C./Sanguinary squad. This gives him ablative wounds against shooting, and at the same time, guarantee that his aura will benefit at least one squad.



You are missing the point of the thread, which is to determine why Sanguinor is so costly for what he does. You do not have to agree with the points assignment, but you aren't providing a realistic point of comparison to facilitate your argument. And yes I know what are trolls. :p

You are missing the point of his reply: Your points cost are made up on the spot to show ahat you want them to show. Yes, we could have all phrased it in nicer ways, but the point remains: your comparison works off the wrong base and using wrong cost assumptions to reach a predetermined goal.

riotknight
28-01-2011, 07:52
Pretty sure there is no formula to how they cost things in the books anymore. At least there hasn't been in some time. Gav Thorpe and Phil Kelly both said as much in interviews with Bad Dice if I recall correctly.
So all this talk about under or over priced based on math is speculation on some antiquated system of costing

shabbadoo
28-01-2011, 08:04
Blessing - 10pt (Bad. D.C/Sang Guards/Honour Guards don't get sgts)
10 points to upgrade a Vet. Sgt. to a 2 wound HQ class character. Yeah, that's totally worth only 10 points. Not. Try substantially more than 10 points.


Aura of Fervour - 45pt (Chapter banner for 6". Not bad, but all you need is a vindicator or similar to ruin your day)
Any unit with even 1 model within 6" of The Sanguinor gets +1 Attack, not every model in the unit must be within 6" of The Sanguinor to get the benefit. That can be the entirety of your army if you deploy your units in a remotely intelligent manner. Being able to give +1 Attack to dozens of models is rather awesome, and yes, it's going to take a bit more than just a Vindicator shell to dent that unless it blows up The Sanguinor to begin with. Aw, but he's got Eternal Warrior, so that is not going to happen.

rabblerouser
28-01-2011, 08:07
Maybe mephiston is just underpriced, making the sanguinor look too expensive

Gu Long: Ancient Dragon
28-01-2011, 08:50
Mephiston doesnt have an Inv save which IMO makes him a tad annoying due to the lack of IC. Anyone with enough lascannons (or equiv) can make short work of him and can defo kill him before he makes combat. Sanguinor has the inv save and is much faster but doesnt have the profile of a GD. So bout equal but with all the buffs that Sanguinor give out he is worth more. Mephi is more killy, but also a lot more of a fire magnet. Sanguinor give better bonuses, is reasonably killy and isnt so much of a fire magnet imo

Vaktathi
28-01-2011, 09:17
Disclaimer: This thread is meant for power-gamers and rule lawyers.

The golden bossman may be a badass-looking character, but points-wise he seems to be really overpriced. I have yet to use him so here's what I think of him.

Lets break it down:

He is an assault marine with the addition of...

(Points are estimates)
4 extra WS - 15pt (Most assault troops have at least WS 4, therefore still 4+ to hit for them. Ergo, pointless)
1 extra BS (pointless, he does not have a ranged weapon)
1 extra S - 15pt
2 extra W - 30pt
2 extra I - 30pt
4 extra A - 45pt (Assault marines get the pistol bonus, Sanguinor does not since Glaive Encarmine is two-handed. Factored this into the point)
2 extra L - 10pt (He's Fearless for morale purposes anyways)

Eternal Warrior - 20pt (Average number of wounds for a god)
Fearless - 5pt (Losing AtsKnF makes me wonder if this is a +pt or -pt)
Furious Charge - 5pt

Glaive Encarmine - 15pt
Artificer Armor - 15pt
Avenging Angel - 10pt (Dubious benefits - Mech/Horde armies will typically not care)
Blessing - 10pt (Bad. D.C/Sang Guards/Honour Guards don't get sgts)
Unyielding Will - 15pt (Alright space jesus, you get a storm shield. How impressive.)
Aura of Fervour - 45pt (Chapter banner for 6". Not bad, but all you need is a vindicator or similar to ruin your day)

Total: 288 (Including base assault marine cost)

Since he does not have the I.C. special rule, nor any real rules to help him survive massed fire (T4 for a "Mortal-become-God"? Seriously?) I would subtract at least 20% off that total.

Any thoughts about this guy?
The Stormshield points are off, as in all honesty these are generally *under*costed in C:BA and C:SM. That really should be a 30pt wargear item at least.


Likewise, WS8 make a lot more difference than you think it does, as anything WS3 hits him on 5's, and he's hitting anything that isn't an Avatar, Bloodthirster, Hive Tyrant, etc the Sanguinor is hitting on 3's, including such mighty combatants as Abaddon, Kharne, Daemon Princes of all stripes, and Eldar Phoenix Lords. That WS8 means a lot if engaging enemy characters and anything WS3.

Likewise you have very much undercosted the blessing. You're basically making a Sergeant into a mini-HQ, effectively another Chaplain in terms of stats (though obviously not special rules or wargear).

Furious Charge on a character like that again is likely worth more than 5pts, as that pushes him to I7, beyond pretty much anything that isn't an Eldar Phoenix Lord, Yriel, Greater Daemons of Slaanesh, and Dark Eldar HQ's, potentially allowing him to wipe expensive and Init reliant characters before they can attack. It also ups his S to 6, allowing him to ID T3 characters (those guys that rely on their Init 6/7), become a real potent threat to vehicles (6 S6 attacks on AV10 rear armor is quite effective at taking out tanks), and wound T4 models on 2+.

Eternal Warrior's probably worth at least 30 on there.

Also, the utility of the mobility offered by the jump pack is far greater on a character like this than it is on a single assault marine. This isn't factored into the above calculations at all. A standard marine with a jump pack is rather fairly priced at 18ppm, a 3pt increase. However that's a 20% cost increase over a basic SM. On a character like this, that mobility is all the more important, and thus should be factored in as such and be included as a cost in there over and above what a basic Assault marine gets it for.

I'd say the Sanguinor is about right where it is. It's expensive enough not to be thrown in every army but rather be tailored around or used only in Apoc, as such a character should be. He's too expensive to go in just any list, but then again, he shouldn't be cheap enough for that anyway.

Zweischneid
28-01-2011, 10:21
Mephiston doesnt have an Inv save which IMO makes him a tad annoying due to the lack of IC. Anyone with enough lascannons (or equiv) can make short work of him and can defo kill him before he makes combat. Sanguinor has the inv save and is much faster but doesnt have the profile of a GD. So bout equal but with all the buffs that Sanguinor give out he is worth more. Mephi is more killy, but also a lot more of a fire magnet. Sanguinor give better bonuses, is reasonably killy and isnt so much of a fire magnet imo

Well, no Librarian has an inv. save. If you substract the cost for the Librarian (i.e. psychic hood defense) you likely want in most armies (-100 pts) anyways and his super-Epistolarian abilities (-50 pts, though it likely should be more), Mephiston gives you a DP-style killy-unit for a mere 100 pts. Not bad is it? Substract the point-costs for the Plasma-Pistol and Artificer Armour.. and he becomes even cheaper for a murder-statline. With the Sanguinor, you get a nice killer-unit, but you still need a Psy-hood (and a unit to babysit said Psy-hood if it isn't Mephy), so a straight up comparison between Sanguinor and Mephiston should consider the added cost of needing to add a Librarian if you opt for the Sanguinor to achieve similar table-effects.



Or, perhaps the other way around as popular in this thread:

100 pts. - Librarian
+50 pts. - Epistolarian upgrade
+50 pts. - another Epistolarian upgrade
+20 pts. - Artificer Armour
+15 pts. - Plasma pistol
+15 pts. - +2 Weapon Skill
+10 pts. - +1 Ballistic Skill
+15 pts. - +2 Strenght
+15 pts. - +2 Toughness
+30 pts. - +3 Wounds
+30 pts. - +3 Initiative
+15 pts. - +2 Attacks
+15 pts. - Mephy's Gaze
--------------------------
380 pts.

As he lacks IC, we give him a generous 20% discount, making Mephiston fairly priced at around ~ 300 to 310 pts.

Sarevok
28-01-2011, 17:28
With regards to the Storm Shield price, its relativley cheap because a SM Captain already has a 4++ Iron Halo.
Using the original "formula" of an assault marine, the cost for a 3++ would actually be much higher, because they don't have any inv save to start with.

thoughtfoxx
28-01-2011, 17:58
I think he brings a great deal to the party - his real advantage is with his buffs he brings [as has been mentioned before]
That said I think it is just one butt ugly model. i will be bringing a converted astorath to the table instead.
- anyone know where I can get a pile of little goblets? I need them for my sanguinary priest conversions as well -

TheLaughingGod
29-01-2011, 04:35
tl;dr version

Some people are unhappy with new units in Warhammer 40,000.

Hendarion
29-01-2011, 09:43
Disclaimer: This thread is meant for power-gamers and rule lawyers.

The golden bossman may be a badass-looking character, but points-wise he seems to be really overpriced. I have yet to use him so here's what I think of him.

Lets break it down:

He is an assault marine with the addition of...

(Points are estimates)
4 extra WS - 15pt (Most assault troops have at least WS 4, therefore still 4+ to hit for them. Ergo, pointless)
1 extra BS (pointless, he does not have a ranged weapon)
1 extra S - 15pt
2 extra W - 30pt
2 extra I - 30pt
4 extra A - 45pt (Assault marines get the pistol bonus, Sanguinor does not since Glaive Encarmine is two-handed. Factored this into the point)
2 extra L - 10pt (He's Fearless for morale purposes anyways)

Eternal Warrior - 20pt (Average number of wounds for a god)
Fearless - 5pt (Losing AtsKnF makes me wonder if this is a +pt or -pt)
Furious Charge - 5pt

Glaive Encarmine - 15pt
Artificer Armor - 15pt
Avenging Angel - 10pt (Dubious benefits - Mech/Horde armies will typically not care)
Blessing - 10pt (Bad. D.C/Sang Guards/Honour Guards don't get sgts)
Unyielding Will - 15pt (Alright space jesus, you get a storm shield. How impressive.)
Aura of Fervour - 45pt (Chapter banner for 6". Not bad, but all you need is a vindicator or similar to ruin your day)

Total: 288 (Including base assault marine cost)

Since he does not have the I.C. special rule, nor any real rules to help him survive massed fire (T4 for a "Mortal-become-God"? Seriously?) I would subtract at least 20% off that total.

Any thoughts about this guy?

You know that you can't simply add points values from somewhere to a random model and say that is correct. Tell me, would you make an upgrade "Furious Charge - 5pt" also cost 5 points of the guy who shall receive it is a greater demon? No? Why not? Because the expensive base model benefits much more from it than a cheap one.
I therefore think your entire calculation and estimation is baseless as the example of 5 (lol?) points for furious charge.