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Lanparth
30-01-2011, 21:50
"Space Marines get the Storm Raven"

I've been seeing this all around, everywhere, all the time and I just have to know. Why?

I don't play Blood Angels nor do I have an over abundant want to. I don't play Flesh Terrors or any of their successor Chapters. I don't play a custom chapter with the Blood Angel's Geneseed.

I play Codex: Space Marines.

And Orks and ect ect, but as far as Space Marines are concerned I play Blood Ravens, a vanilla Codex Marines army. Is everyone just assuming we'll get the StormRaven in some kind of update? Is everyone just assuming that, or am I missing something important?

I just find it annoying that for rumors such as Summer of Flyers people go "Well, the Marines get the Storm Raven." Uhm, unless there is something I don't know about, no, no we don't.

sabreu
30-01-2011, 21:55
There is no actual good reason why space marine and variants get different vehicles at all.

Tavendale
30-01-2011, 21:57
I wouldn't be surprised if something comes up on the website or WD to give the Stormraven to all Space Marine chapters.

Charistoph
30-01-2011, 22:05
There is no actual good reason why space marine and variants get different vehicles at all.

With the exception that the rules and FOC are in different armies/books... If we can mix and match, does that mean Black Templars can field Long Fangs now?

I remember similar things happening when Codex: Chaos Daemons came out. People kept claiming that they could Assault from Deep Strike. I kept remembering that the codex specifically states that they can't. Later reviewing the Codex: Chaos Space Marines I found that their Lesser Daemons COULD Assault from Deep Strike. People get things mixed up all the time.

Now, rumor has it that there is going to be a new game expansion for fliers coming in this summer, and the said flier could be in the Space Marines group, so all well and good.

Of course, there is the end caveat that you can do whatever you want in a friendly game, including dropping Necron Heavy Destroyers from a Tau Manta while the Carnifex Deep Strikes in behind enemy lines. They are your games, so you can do what you want with them, just make sure your opponent agrees before plopping them on the table.

Angelust
30-01-2011, 22:09
Lan - Summer of flyers itself is a rumor. If you're dubious of rumors, ignore them. What's the problem?

sabreu
30-01-2011, 22:15
With the exception that the rules and FOC are in different armies/books... If we can mix and match, does that mean Black Templars can field Long Fangs now?

1.) I specifically mentioned vehicles, which Long Fangs are not.

2.) I was also being background specific. There is no good reason why x chapter has access to y dreadnaught, which just has a different weapon mount.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
30-01-2011, 22:16
There's been nothing put out stating that all SMs get the Storm Raven. Until then you'll be happier assuming they'll never get it. Granted, if you and your opponent are cool with it, anyone can field the Raven.

Charistoph
30-01-2011, 22:18
1.) I specifically mentioned vehicles, which Long Fangs are not.

2.) I was also being background specific. There is no good reason why x chapter has access to y dreadnaught, which just has a different weapon mount.

That is why I started with, "With the exception of..." And from that perspective, it doesn't matter if it's infantry, vehicles, or monstrous creatures, the statement still applies as it is the concept.

Wolf Lord Balrog
30-01-2011, 22:33
That is why I started with, "With the exception of..." And from that perspective, it doesn't matter if it's infantry, vehicles, or monstrous creatures, the statement still applies as it is the concept.

Except that you are describing a concept broadly applied to the point of absurdity. This is one specific unit, that is clearly a Space Marine vehicle, which is implied by GW themselves in the WD article to be ultimately meant for all SM forces.

I foresee the era of BA/GK exclusivity to be relatively short, a year at the absolute most, probably less. There will be, at some point in the not-very-distant future, a WD or online article giving access to the Stormraven to every Space Marine chapter. For there not to be makes no sense on any level, and in the meantime my friends and I are already allowing it.

Doesn't mean anybody else has to of course, but I'm pretty confident on where this issue will ultimately go.

ForgottenLore
30-01-2011, 22:36
and to settle the argument; the feb white dwarf will let it be used in all marine chapters, not just BA and GKs.

There were a couple statements along these lines from reliable rumor people like Frgt/10 here stating that all SM would get access to the SR in a WD article.

More recently

apparently GW have done a bit of a last minute back-flip and decided that the stormraven will NOT be useable in all marine armies after all (apoc excluded of course).
This completely goes against what i heard a few months back regarding it so im not sure what exactly they're playing at....
indicating that GW changed there mind at the last minute and/or rearranged something, but a lot of people seem to have missed that.

That's why everyone has been assuming (for months) that the SR will be available to all SMs, because reliable rumormongers said so.

Classic example of how things can change at the last minute though.

orz192
30-01-2011, 22:41
I play Codex marines and Blood Angels but I would rather have the Codex Marines not have access to the storm raven.
I like there being differences in the equipment available to marine variants.
But if there were a lot more units in the Codex marines' codex like Tyrannic war veterans that were not available in other marine codex I would be all for it.

Wolf Lord Balrog
30-01-2011, 22:48
I play Codex marines and Blood Angels but I would rather have the Codex Marines not have access to the storm raven.
I like there being differences in the equipment available to marine variants.
But if there were a lot more units in the Codex marines' codex like Tyrannic war veterans that were not available in other marine codex I would be all for it.

Even if they lost exclusive use of the Stormraven, BAs would still have:
Furioso Dreadnoughts
Death Company Dreadnoughts
Flying, Psyker Dreadnoughts (almost forgot them)
Fast Rhinos
Fast Razorbacks
Deep Striking Land Raiders
Fast, Scouting Baal Predators
Fast normal Predators
Fast Vindicators
Fast Whirlwinds (for whatever that's worth)

And that's just the unique vehicles they would retain, not even getting into non-vehicle units. I don't think the BA armor pool is in any danger of looking too much like other SM forces.

Korraz
30-01-2011, 23:10
To be pedantic, those are the same miniatures, with a little rule attached. The only unique models would be the Baal and the Furioso (and Marines got that one covered with the Ironaclad.) I'm not complaining.

Anyway, anything new or flashy in a variant codex will be put into the next vanilla dex.

impala
30-01-2011, 23:22
So if I miss that issue of WD I can't field it? Kind of like the Night Spinner?

Sparowl
30-01-2011, 23:26
The assumption is generally based on the idea that the Ultramarines will eventually have the cool new toy that other chapters have in their new book.

This one was specifically because of the rumors mentioned above, but even without those rumors, most people would assume that the Ultramarines book would eventually get it.

ForgottenLore
30-01-2011, 23:31
So if I miss that issue of WD I can't field it? Kind of like the Night Spinner?

Weren't the night spinner rules recently put on the web site as a PDF download?

If (IF) vanilla marines get the SR before their next codex I would expect a similar treatment, rules can be down loaded a few months after the WD article.

Nocculum
30-01-2011, 23:34
Even if applied to all Marine Chapters, Blood Angels have the benefit of the Raven's long-winded multi-drop in conjunction with Descent of Angels, and I'd assume that'd keep it relatively Blood Angel-centric.

sabreu
30-01-2011, 23:55
That is why I started with, "With the exception of..." And from that perspective, it doesn't matter if it's infantry, vehicles, or monstrous creatures, the statement still applies as it is the concept.

I'm not trying to be anal about semantics, so forgive me if I sound aggressive. My only point I was trying to make is that thematically, the exclusiveness of vehicles (particularly those that are standard with just equipment swaps - ala dreadnoughts) is a bit ridiculous from a background perspective.

From a rules perspective (and for game balance) it makes perfect sense.

cromanobtroir
31-01-2011, 00:09
If you look in thew spacemarine codex its says you can use any character from any of spacemarine codex this applies to other codexes and vehicles but you have to have the relevant codex to use eg: marinus calgar and ezekiel could lead an army with death company i have a blood angel variant chapter my hq choices are mephisto and pedro kantor and its perfectly legal so yeah if you want use the storm raven go ahead also case in point you can this in a legal army as your troop choices 1 space marine scout 1 imperial guard platoon 1 sisters of battle 1 grey knight and 1 sanguinary guard and 1 space marine all you need is to have an inquistor as a hq and dante does that help

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
31-01-2011, 00:14
Even if they lost exclusive use of the Stormraven, BAs would still have:
Furioso Dreadnoughts
Death Company Dreadnoughts
Flying, Psyker Dreadnoughts (almost forgot them)
Fast Rhinos
Fast Razorbacks
Deep Striking Land Raiders
Fast, Scouting Baal Predators
Fast normal Predators
Fast Vindicators
Fast Whirlwinds (for whatever that's worth)

And that's just the unique vehicles they would retain, not even getting into non-vehicle units. I don't think the BA armor pool is in any danger of looking too much like other SM forces.

And BA still lose:
Ironclad Dreadnoughts
Cheap Rhinos
Cheap Razorbacks
Cheap Predators
Cheap Vidicators
Thunderfire Cannons
Land Speeder Storms

That said, your argument is nonsensical. You're saying "Why not?" when the easy counter is "Why?" I see no reason it should be allowed outside the codices that have it, and all I keep hearing is "But I want it with my Space Wolves!"

Wolf Lord Balrog
31-01-2011, 00:33
And BA still lose:
Thunderfire Cannons
Land Speeder Storms


Fixed that for ya. BAs already have more than suitable replacements for everything else on your list. And are you really missing the Thunderfire or LS Storms, really?


That said, your argument is nonsensical. You're saying "Why not?" when the easy counter is "Why?" I see no reason it should be allowed outside the codices that have it, and all I keep hearing is "But I want it with my Space Wolves!"

We've had this discussion already, I'm not having it again. The people I play with see things my way, that's all that really matters.

Ozybonza
31-01-2011, 01:04
If you look in thew spacemarine codex its says you can use any character from any of spacemarine codex this applies to other codexes and vehicles but you have to have the relevant codex to use eg: marinus calgar and ezekiel could lead an army with death company i have a blood angel variant chapter my hq choices are mephisto and pedro kantor and its perfectly legal so yeah if you want use the storm raven go ahead also case in point you can this in a legal army as your troop choices 1 space marine scout 1 imperial guard platoon 1 sisters of battle 1 grey knight and 1 sanguinary guard and 1 space marine all you need is to have an inquistor as a hq and dante does that help

1. No it doesn't.
2. Grammar is your friend.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
31-01-2011, 01:49
Fixed that for ya. BAs already have more than suitable replacements for everything else on your list.

Um, no. Hand-waving an argument away doesn't mean you win.

Chem-Dog
31-01-2011, 03:14
OK.
In an attempt to swing this thread back around to the original point....

The MAIN logic that's given rise to this "Storm Ravens for All" warcry is simple.

People were decrying the Stormraven's total overpowered-ness around the time of the Blood Angels codex release. People get a whif that their Marine faction will get hold of this new alphastrike "superweapon" that breaks the game and obviously any power armoured army that hasn't got one is automatically gimped into uselesness.

Lanparth
31-01-2011, 03:26
I personally don't need a StormRaven. I think the advantage of flyers is highly overstressed, flyers still burn when hit by Melta and Las, know what I mean?

However I've just been confused how so many post as if its a given that ALL Marines just magically have the Storm Raven, which I've seen no evidence to back.

ForgottenLore
31-01-2011, 03:41
They certainly don't have it yet, but until recently all the reliable rumor mongers were saying that they would eventually, which is what I was saying above.

What the story is now, who knows, but until recently all the evidence we had was that the SR would be made generally available.

neko
31-01-2011, 04:04
Even now the evidence points towards the chibihawk being a marine flyer in general. They even talk about it as such in the current White Dwarf. It just looks to be more of a case of GW just not letting the other chapters use it yet.

Disclaimer: I do not currently play marines, and if I do start I'll be collecting Grey Knights. It won't affect me if marines in general never get the chibihawk. Hell, it will probably be better for me if my opponents never get access to them...

Charistoph
31-01-2011, 04:26
Except that you are describing a concept broadly applied to the point of absurdity. This is one specific unit, that is clearly a Space Marine vehicle, which is implied by GW themselves in the WD article to be ultimately meant for all SM forces.

Taking a concept to the point of absurdity and back-tracking from there is one step in balancing an issue. I've seen people take 'normal' and 'balanced' and turn it on its hind end far too often to preclude a warning just because someone else thought it was absurd.


I'm not trying to be anal about semantics, so forgive me if I sound aggressive. My only point I was trying to make is that thematically, the exclusiveness of vehicles (particularly those that are standard with just equipment swaps - ala dreadnoughts) is a bit ridiculous from a background perspective.

From a rules perspective (and for game balance) it makes perfect sense.

And I agree with you. I may take semantics too far at times because I deal with computers as part of my job, and you know how anal they can be. It's been part of my mindset too long to identify and cross-shift to a paradigm where people know what they're talking about and the little exceptions are always known.

-Loki-
31-01-2011, 06:25
We've had this discussion already, I'm not having it again. The people I play with see things my way, that's all that really matters.

This really is the whole point until they release rules stating otherwise. If your group of friends thinks it's okay for you to use a Stormraven, just buy one and use it. Just don't plan on using it at tournaments.

t-tauri
31-01-2011, 08:39
Already had this in the Stormraven threads. Thread closed.