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sk8er-guy123456
01-02-2011, 01:27
Hey guys. I wanted to talk a little about things that have been on my mind. Im hoping im not the only one feeling this way:

so i bought SM models when i was in 6th grade, butchered them and sold them years later. but the fluff and lore always stuck with me and i found myself back in a hobby store to buy "just one box" and paint here and there. long story short, im now doing a Truescale fallen angel army. but all along, i noticed that the models are so much more expensive than they were when i was in 6th grade. i mean even then it was expensive. being in business school, i started noticing GW more and not so much the modeling stores. and my conclusion is theyre jerks. (i would use stronger language but i got warned earlier for avoiding the swear filter? lol my bad)

GW doesnt care whatsoever about us. like not at all. their whole philosophy is structured around the monopoly they created and operate. they know that they are the main guys in the tabletop modeling game and that we kinda have no choice so they slowly RACHET UP PRICES. its not just that.

EVERY SINGLE TIME a new model or army comes out, the rules are written for that model so it is better than the rest. so that player will win. then, after its not so new, it gets nerfed. im thinking of the blood angels death guard black guys. and of course those models cost more.why not? lets screw the consumer over as much as possible. i was on another site and some kid said he never played 40k but he stumbled on some tyranid lore that says this:

"Behind the Hive Fleets lie the barren husks of a dozen galaxies already consumed.

I think my imagination got stack overflow right now. How can you fight an enemy THIS powerful? Does the Imperium have any chance?"

now lets be serious for a second. it is unrealistic that all armies are equal. that they are all soooooo BAD and scary that the imperium could collapse from their threat at any moment. is this realistic? no, but any kid like that one who reads it instantly gets drawn in. again allllll about the profits. im not mad guys, just annoyed. i mean im a capitaliast and love business but cmon, theres a line between profits and keeping your customers well being in mind. and they dont know what that even means any more.... realistic story line??? or pump up each and every race so that they are the absolute baddest?? well the latter of the two will make us more money.... so ya that one.

just one college student's thoughts...

what do you guys think? am i being unfair?

Baneboss
01-02-2011, 01:33
If not for capitalism and business you would never have a hobby like that.

sk8er-guy123456
01-02-2011, 01:37
If not for capitalism and business you would never have a hobby like that.

you can have both of those without harming the consumer

Meriwether
01-02-2011, 01:37
How dare they make money? How dare they provide a product and service that people are willing to pay their prices for?

What a bunch of immoral chumps, making money by providing goods and services... They should be ashamed of themselves!

Edit: "Harming the consumer?" YOU'RE BUYING TOYS. Sheesh.

gloriousbattle
01-02-2011, 01:41
If not for capitalism and business you would never have a hobby like that.

So those equate to selling snake oil?

sk8er-guy123456
01-02-2011, 01:48
How dare they make money? How dare they provide a product and service that people are willing to pay their prices for?

What a bunch of immoral chumps, making money by providing goods and services... They should be ashamed of themselves!

Edit: "Harming the consumer?" YOU'RE BUYING TOYS. Sheesh.

youre missing the point. it has nothing to do with them making money. Im all for it. it has to do with the fact that if a space marine is worth $1, but they know you have no where else to buy space marines from, theyll charge you $3. and over time more and more. thats all. i told you, i love capitalism but as a consumer i get annoyed at these behaviors

FabricatorGeneralMike
01-02-2011, 01:58
I would suggest that you read the 'GW other' Fourm. Its got lots of topics like this. It all boils down to one thing. We (as in adults) are not their target auidence. Youths from 12-16 are what they concintrate on.

Does this make sence, yes it does. Their 'churn and burn' business model looks totally wack to us, but Mr Kirby must have a plan. Even if its 'sell all of my shares ASAP.

From what GW knows, they believe that 80-90% of the people will drop out after 2 years. So lets wallet rape them for those two years. EVERYTHING else is icing on the cake.

PS there is a price discussion thread here;

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209297

I know and I agree with you, its not the GW I used to know and love. The only thing that keeps me interested in GW is the old fluff, and that I play games only with a few good threads. So we can make the game WE want to play. Its your hobby, do what you want with it as long as other people are willing to play games with you.

traeplien
01-02-2011, 02:01
youre missing the point. it has nothing to do with them making money. Im all for it. it has to do with the fact that if a space marine is worth $1, but they know you have no where else to buy space marines from, theyll charge you $3. and over time more and more. thats all. i told you, i love capitalism but as a consumer i get annoyed at these behaviors

If I read correctly, you're a business student. As such, you should be incredibly familiar with the concepts of scarcity and supply and demand, as well as product mark-up. Don't be annoyed with GW if "these behaviors" offend you. Look to places such as your local cinema, where the markup on popcorn will be ~1000% on average. Or, even better, look to your pharmacies, where drugs are sold at up to a 5600% markup. In that latter case, that's something to be annoyed about; medication is way more important than toy soldiers.

However, let's be real. This is capitalism. It rewards those who have good ideas and want to, well, capitalize on them. If cost is too prohibitive, it becomes a luxury good, and that's that.

sk8er-guy123456
01-02-2011, 02:02
I would suggest that you read the 'GW other' Fourm. Its got lots of topics like this. It all boils down to one thing. We (as in adults) are not their target auidence. Youths from 12-16 are what they concintrate on.

Does this make sence, yes it does. Their 'churn and burn' business model looks totally wack to us, but Mr Kirby must have a plan. Even if its 'sell all of my shares ASAP.

From what GW knows, they believe that 80-90% of the people will drop out after 2 years. So lets wallet rape them for those two years. EVERYTHING else is icing on the cake.

PS there is a price discussion thread here;

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209297

I know and I agree with you, its not the GW I used to know and love. The only thing that keeps me interested in GW is the old fluff, and that I play games only with a few good threads. So we can make the game WE want to play. Its your hobby, do what you want with it as long as other people are willing to play games with you.

theres the answer. i dont know anyone who could have said it better than that. makes perfect sense

AFnord
01-02-2011, 02:08
It would be interesting to know how GW prices have changed compared to the inflation. Compared to the price of going to see a movie at the theatre the price of GW products seem to inch ahead (by roughly 3%, according to my calculations, more for some products, less for some other, and noticeably less for the product that I first compared it to (metal cavalry, which shared the price of going to the movies back when I first started, but now is nearly 10% cheaper)). It is very easy to look at increases in price in a vacuum, but compare it to other "luxury" services, and you will find that GW is simply an average offender.

It should be pointed out that, at least in northern Europe, the price of food has increased slower than the inflation.


EVERY SINGLE TIME a new model or army comes out, the rules are written for that model so it is better than the rest. so that player will win. then, after its not so new, it gets nerfed. im thinking of the blood angels death guard black guys. and of course those models cost more.why not? lets screw the consumer over as much as possible. i was on another site and some kid said he never played 40k but he stumbled on some tyranid lore that says this:
Not true. While you can't blame GW for having the most balanced game in the world, compare, the power curve seem to have peaked at around IG/SW, and went down again with BA/nids. Not by a large amount, but then again, IG/SW were not THAT much better than say vanilla SM, orks or Chaos marines (chaos marines suffers from the era of codexes that they were released in, and are thus not a very interesting army, but you can still put out some nasty builds with that codex). And with the blood angels death guard black guys, do you mean death company. I thought the consensus on those guys were that they were in fact a bit pants. Great models, poor rules. Rage is simply too easy to manipulate, in particular when the models costs twice as much as regular marines. Heck, Witch hunters can still put up a very good fight, and are only slightly behind the 5th ed armies as far as power goes. Necrons on the other hand suffers, not because the individual units are horrible, but because the army itself meshes together poorly in the current edition (so it is more a matter of edition creep than anything else).

impala
01-02-2011, 02:46
Lessee, since I started playing (over 20 years ago,) GW metal minis have gone a little over double in price, same as paperback books. In the same time, gasoline has more than tripled in price. And a loaf of bread has more than doubled in price in the last three years. So I think I am still getting a deal with my GW minis...

ehlijen
01-02-2011, 02:51
GW does not have a monopoly. They make toy soldiers. Many companies make toy soldiers. Many more companies make little toy figures that could be used as toy soldiers if you don't have any actual toy soldiers. GW makes amongst the best little toy soldiers. You don't like their prices you're always free to by from another company, you'll just have to deal with them not being as good/fitting. Or you could use coins of paper pieces to play the game with.
You might choose to only accept GW marines as acceptable for a marine army, but that is then your choice and it ignores the fact that a legoman with some kind of gunlike thing is just as useful (if not more so).

Axeman1n
01-02-2011, 03:04
I bought some models from a different game. Those models were 1/4 the price. They were 1/2 the detail or less. Personally, I'd rather have GW models. The game is nice, but the Hobby is why I'm in it.

Born Again
01-02-2011, 03:07
How dare they make money? How dare they provide a product and service that people are willing to pay their prices for?

What a bunch of immoral chumps, making money by providing goods and services... They should be ashamed of themselves!


This.

Don't like it, don't play. If you decide you want GW models, and you are willing to pay the prices for them, that is entirely your decision (though it should be noted there are plenty of places to get them cheaper online).

GW is founded upon a basis of older gamers playing with their friends on a sunday afternoon, a "beer and pretzels" game if you will. This is how it began and, in many ways, this will always be its heart, the people that will keep the game going no matter what. However, what has made it such a huge company with stores everywhere and video games and films made about it is their business model and parting youths from their disposable income. If you want to go back to the GW of the mid-late 80's, that's fine, but personally I like it better now.

Dr.Clock
01-02-2011, 03:11
While there is a degree of creep, there are certainly ways around it.

1) Don't play with or against lists that are obviously abusive. Capitalism is actually something that hurts people who don't HAVE the cash to shell out for the next best things or min/max transports and other super-expensive kits.

I have never had much in the way of income, and in school partying and eating take precedence (in roughly that order) - I buy models about every 18 months and about 3000 points at a time that focus on the core troops choices of a book. I know I'm going to be putting armies together for years at a time, I want to be sure that the feel of the list is just-so. I plan conversions in advance and look for ways to build cheap and effective conversions to stay on particular themes.

2) Buy used. There are quite a few decent larger sellers on ebay that will let you amass a sizeable force quite rapidly. Don't be afraid of OOP models and try to find the ones that everyone thinks are totally worthless, or buy the latest edition but-one. 10 dollar OOP warwalkers are hard to argue with - without them I still would not have any. Likewise, nobody likes vypers - buy some used ones for venoms - nabbed mine for a tenner a pop (CAD).

3) sync-up your opponents to the same edition. The eldar vs chaos battles I have today are totally worthwhile. Changing editions tends to actually level off the codecies of a previous edition. In addition, anything that came out around the same time will generally be quite close in format/style. If everyone in your area is on the BA/SW train, don't pick up Necrons. But, if your buddies are Eldar and SM, you could still pick them and cross your fingers for a book next year.

Anyway... I'm probably a bad person to talk to about this, as I think getting in to the hobby is one of the hardest parts. I think what separates the wargamer from other type of 'gamer' hobbyists is the non-gamer aspects of the hobby. You need to connect with your models in some fundamentally rewarding way that keeps you interested and productive, or I think you'll move on to more social or immediate hobbies that don't take 4 hours prep for every hour of gaming.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Bubble Ghost
01-02-2011, 04:09
I don't mind paying a premium for the minis, because they're great. It's the blasé, almost grudging attitude GW seem to have towards actual gaming these days that bugs me. You can almost picture today's GW suits grumbling about having to produce games at all, resenting customers for wanting something to actually do with the premium-grade lumps of plastic they're fleecing us for.

However understandable this may be from a hurrah-for-the-free-market-and-all-that-jazz kind of standpoint, it is kind of dishonest, and that sort of thing is obviously going to foster resentment. Rolling out a deceptive red carpet in the scramble for newcomers' cash while giving loyal customers the finger is the same kind of approach used by high street banks and insurance companies, and goodness me aren't they popular... Admittedly in those cases, they're simply taking loyalty for granted, rather than not actually caring about it at all GW-style, but it's similarly irritating.

Meriwether
01-02-2011, 04:21
youre missing the point.

No, I'm not. I'm disagreeing with your point (and your premise). That's not the same thing as missing it.


theres the answer. i dont know anyone who could have said it better than that. makes perfect sense

Ah, so you weren't looking for discussion, you were looking for validation of your opinion. Have fun with that.

TheLaughingGod
01-02-2011, 04:21
Oh I get it, you're a whiner; welcome to Warseer. You'll fit right in. :rolleyes:

Hellebore
01-02-2011, 04:24
I've only ever been into these games because of the setting. GW is doing IMO horrible things to that setting as the writing gets more juvenile and simply a veiled advertisement for the miniatures they describe.

Hence why I find less and less of what hooked me still there to actually enjoy. I can't pick up a codex without finding some stupid fappery about Bob Bobson the mighty indestructible warrior and his awesomeness. That's not why I liked 40k and it's not what they sold me.

So... yeah. GW are doing what they want how they want. It's not what I want, so I'm not exactly jumping at the chance to purchase it. Isn't that how it works? I'd love for them to turn back to a form of writing that wasn't just cheap pulp advertising but they clearly believe it's the best way (or the least effort required) to get their money so...

Hellebore

Winterfell
01-02-2011, 04:33
To the OP,

I think your right. Prices are exceptionally high.

I personally cannot afford a Lamborghini so I do not buy them. I cannot afford season tickets for my favorite NFL team so I do not buy them either.

Currently however I can afford Warhammer. When that ceases to be the case I will stop buying this as well.

Or until something better comes along.

TheLaughingGod
01-02-2011, 04:34
I've only ever been into these games because of the setting. GW is doing IMO horrible things to that setting as the writing gets more juvenile and simply a veiled advertisement for the miniatures they describe.

Hence why I find less and less of what hooked me still there to actually enjoy. I can't pick up a codex without finding some stupid fappery about Bob Bobson the mighty indestructible warrior and his awesomeness. That's not why I liked 40k and it's not what they sold me.

So... yeah. GW are doing what they want how they want. It's not what I want, so I'm not exactly jumping at the chance to purchase it. Isn't that how it works? I'd love for them to turn back to a form of writing that wasn't just cheap pulp advertising but they clearly believe it's the best way (or the most effort required) to get their money so...

Hellebore

I agree, but I'm holding out hope that things will change. The Dark Eldar codex is one of the greatest codexes ever in my opinion as far as rules and lore go. It made me very, very happy. If Ward just went away I'd be much happier. Cruddance I can deal with. At least he has an appreciation for history (which he hides in his lore, the cheeky devil)

prometheus
01-02-2011, 04:42
Ahh its my old naysayer meriweather. While yes I agree with everyone on here in the "if you don't like it then don't play it", I do NOT agree with the prices. If GW scaled back their prices a LITTLE, then the people who WOULD play but CANT due to money will be more interested in the game, and therefore spend their money. My local game store is in a military town, they blow money like its oxygen. However, many a customer has read a book, played dawn of war, saw something online, and when they FINALLY come to buy their first minis it hits them....average price of a boxed set is as much as a computer game and an army works out to a computer PLUS a plethora of games. If they sell for cheaper then their will be an initial profit loss but it will turn into a gain as soon as the new customers purchases hit.

stompzilla
01-02-2011, 04:43
GW is so expensive because it is commited to keeping it's manufacturing based in the UK, rather than using cheap labour from the far east. Hence a higher price for your toy soldiers.

Meriwether
01-02-2011, 04:47
Ahh its my old naysayer meriweather.

...and you are? :eyebrows:


While yes I agree with everyone on here in the "if you don't like it then don't play it", I do NOT agree with the prices.

Lots of people don't agree with the prices. I would prefer it if it were cheaper, too.

One presumes that some of the people at GW who get paid to make decisions on this kind of stuff at least pretend to know what they're doing, though... And they owe it to their stockholders and to their employees to be as successful as possible at wringing money out of the likes of us.

Hellebore
01-02-2011, 04:48
I agree, but I'm holding out hope that things will change. The Dark Eldar codex is one of the greatest codexes ever in my opinion as far as rules and lore go. It made me very, very happy. If Ward just went away I'd be much happier. Cruddance I can deal with. At least he has an appreciation for history (which he hides in his lore, the cheeky devil)

I thought so to until two things changed my mind. The first is that they have said that the dark eldar codex was being worked on for the last several years, one number was even 8. Then they released an FAQ for the codex that included things not in this edition of the game.

So what says to me is that the Dark Eldar codex was written and rewritten over the last X years to the point where previous edition game mechanics were left in it.

Thus the reason it's not as full of that kind of stuff is because the background wasn't written (or not all of it) under the current stupid regime of design. Hell, the space marine heroics in the book where they (although used by vect) still come out victorious in their own way could well have been a piece of pap added to fit the current design.

Basically there is far too much precident and I've given far too much benefit of the doubt for me to care much any more.

I recently realised that I have yet to buy a single codex for 5th edition. The marine codex background broke me and despite popular belief it wasn't just the avatar - things like randomly changing the way marine recruitment progression works into the most ridiculous convoluted specialist to generalist 'change for change's sake' also contributed.

I own every codex printed since 2nd edition and yet every time I went to get a 5th ed codex the background just burned my eyes with its vapidity.

This isn't the 40k setting that I liked and as such I unconsciously never bought a single book except the rulebook. It's funny, the rulebook must have been written during the 4th ed paradigm because it has far more of a balanced approach to the setting. Then the codicies came out and started retconning what was written in the rulebook to make factions look uber.

It gets to the point where we aren't even talking about the same setting anymore. Where arguments aren't over bits of fluff, but over the setting itself. It says X now, but it never used to and X doesn't seem to be in keeping with the original concepts. So should it be X or not?

Meh, whatever. GW have stopped caring, so have I.

Hellebore

spiderman5z
01-02-2011, 05:00
Gw is quite pricey and sometimes for no good reason but in general the sculpts are really nice and the sculptors/designers do a really god job with them and deserve every penny. Other miniature companies are cheaper but the models don't have as many customizable options and aren't as nice as gw ones in general.

Azzy
01-02-2011, 05:12
Yes, the prices could be lower. The thing that annoys me is the yearly increase... it's not necessary and much more noticeable when it's so frequent.

That said, look at other hobbies... I almost got into paintball until I too stock at the start-up and maintenance costs (let alone compared to how much time would actually be spent playing). Video games are the same (to a lesser degree). Having an alcohol/drug habit... um, yeah.

The thing I've found is that the amount of enjoyment (measured in time) that I get for the price I pay (even at those sucky prices) is still at a great ratio. The the enjoyment in the model building, in the painting, in the planing, in the gaming, in the socializing during the gaming... and I get to use the models again and again (some of my models I've been playing with for 7 years).

So, yeah... The pricing does suck as far as initial value goes, but the long term value is nowhere near as bad as all that.

rabblerouser
01-02-2011, 05:34
I think it offers good value considering that you can build the model, paint it, and then play with it. Used models retain their value, and sometimes increase in value if they are nicely painted or rare. Don't forget that GW also has a network of stores to support that hobby.

Hobbies are luxuries and will always be expensive. Model trains aren't cheap. Quality models cars/airplanes/tanks are not cheap either. Paintball isn't cheap. Photography isn't cheap. RC airplanes/cars/helicopters are not cheap. I could go on...

My other hobby is motorcycle racing... don't get me started on what a set of tires costs... not to mention track fees, fuel, maintenance... and if i crash!! huge $$$

If you want a cheap hobby, subscribe to WOW. Then you can spend hundreds of hours grinding for a set of gear that will be obsolete as soon as the next patch comes out.

minitrol
01-02-2011, 05:45
e.

I recently realised that I have yet to buy a single codex for 5th edition. The marine codex background broke me and despite popular belief it wasn't just the avatar - things like randomly changing the way marine recruitment progression works into the most ridiculous convoluted specialist to generalist 'change for change's sake' also contributed.

I own every codex printed since 2nd edition and yet every time I went to get a 5th ed codex the background just burned my eyes with its vapidity.

This isn't the 40k setting that I liked and as such I unconsciously never bought a single book except the rulebook. It's funny, the rulebook must have been written during the 4th ed paradigm because it has far more of a balanced approach to the setting. Then the codicies came out and started retconning what was written in the rulebook to make factions look uber.

It gets to the point where we aren't even talking about the same setting anymore. Where arguments aren't over bits of fluff, but over the setting itself. It says X now, but it never used to and X doesn't seem to be in keeping with the original concepts. So should it be X or not?

Meh, whatever. GW have stopped caring, so have I.

Hellebore

I don't really get where you are coming from. I, like you have brought codexes from 2nd through to now and I have to say the 5th edition ones are the closest to 2nd edition and in some cases they surpass them. I personally love the Blood Angel one, for instance, it illuminates some more background and has far more detail than the old Angels of Death codex did. I guess I can understand any dislike for ret-con if that is your dislike but I prefer the changing it up. I think back to when I started and the things like Librarian Dreadnoughts and Stormraven would have blown my little 12 year old brain :p.

minitrol
01-02-2011, 05:46
Apologies for my terrible quote editing Hellebore!

Stickmonkey
01-02-2011, 06:01
Look at it this way. Figure out your entertainment dollar baseline. How much do you pay for a movie and all the fixings. Movie, drink and popcorn easily set you back $20usd per person these days, unless you are cheap. If you base your entertainment dollar on this, then you can compare the cost of other entertainment. And a hobby is entertainment. So $20usd for 2 hours of entertainment. A video game is what? $50usd there now, but it might take you 10 hours to complete it. So it's cost basis is $5/hr, compared to a movie at $10/hr.

So what about 40k. A starter army complete might set you back $200. If each game takes 2 hrs, and you play 10 games before being "done" with that army...I'm being way conservative here, but there are those who like to paint only, and those who like to play, and many in between. It's rare someone will drop money on a starter army and then decide they hate the game completely. So with this hypothetical, you are coming out the equivalent of movie going at $10/hr...and it could be different for you...but it's a dropping weighted cost, if you like the painting and playing aspects both you get more bang for your buck...

Now go back to look at the first space marine box set and what the game cost in the 80s...In the same scenarios I can tell you the cost was roughly equivalent to my comparable movie cost. The box set plus the rule book set you back easily $50usd and youd likely get the same playability out of it then...even add a few blisters for heroes to lead your troops. And a movie night might have cost $10, so both work out about 5$/hr.

This is all made up hypothetical semi calculative anecdotal jumbo jumbo to just say...everything is more expensive today. And either you accept it and understand companies are trying to make a profit. So they can make better products to make more profit...etc...or you become embittered and naive. And begin believing in conspiracies that all big business is out to screw you over. And we will see your crazed naked PETA face protesting outside a Jamaican oilskin tshirt factory on the news one day.

Hellebore
01-02-2011, 06:03
I don't really get where you are coming from. I, like you have brought codexes from 2nd through to now and I have to say the 5th edition ones are the closest to 2nd edition and in some cases they surpass them. I personally love the Blood Angel one, for instance, it illuminates some more background and has far more detail than the old Angels of Death codex did. I guess I can understand any dislike for ret-con if that is your dislike but I prefer the changing it up. I think back to when I started and the things like Librarian Dreadnoughts and Stormraven would have blown my little 12 year old brain :p.

They blow my brain into single digit IQ points for the hamfisted approach and obvious sales tactics.

I suggest rereading the 2nd ed codicies to see just how different they are. 2nd ed was not about how many times Marneus Calgar/THE sanguinor or Fred the Next Expensive Toy was awesome at Fight McWindom.

The beginning of the book has said since 1st edition that being a person in 40k is to be among untold billions and no one will miss you. The current game is being designed around comic book superheroes that go completely against the facelessness of the setting. Names and characters are good, but not to the point where a book is more about their exploits than the army it's actually about.

But this is my opinion and not yours. I can't take the current background at all seriously.

Hellebore

The Orange
01-02-2011, 06:06
To OP, yes I came to pretty much that realization many years ago. I suggest looking at other companies if you feel that strongly about it. For me Privateer Press earned my respect (despite the setting). Yes there a for profit company like GW, but at least they take their rules development seriously, and put out IMO great books. I'm still a hobbyist at heart and GW does put out some good mini's but it'll be a long time before I jump into building a army again.

Maybe a little off topic but seeing as table top gaming is a social hobby (something you want to play with friends) it has always confounded me that GW continually reduces the accessibility of the hobby, thereby reducing the amount of people playing. If several of my friends kept playing I might have kept investing in the hobby, but everyone I know dropped 40k, thus there's little incentive for me to keep it up beyond the occasional fun project.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
01-02-2011, 06:14
Hey OP, do they teach you how to capitalize the first word of sentences in business school? That's much more troubling to me than Games Workshop's business practices.

It sucks that their miniatures are expensive. But it makes a lot of people focus on one or two armies, lavishing attention on them and becoming very familiar with their background and other information. There are many, many ways to get cheap miniatures (check eBay and you can get whole armies for pennies on the dollar) and the best way to "stick it to the man" is to not buy their product. Obviously many of us believe it is worthwhile to purchase GW products, and I'm afraid until the world economy collapses sometime next year (prediction!:)) Games Workshop is going to stick with what works.

MOMUS
01-02-2011, 07:22
so i bought SM models when i was in 6th grade, butchered them and sold them years later. but the fluff and lore always stuck with me and i found myself back in a hobby store to buy "just one box" and paint here and there. long story short, im now doing a Truescale fallen angel army. but all along, i noticed that the models are so much more expensive than they were when i was in 6th grade.

GW doesnt care whatsoever about us. like not at all. their whole philosophy is structured around the monopoly they created and operate. they know that they are the main guys in the tabletop modeling game and that we kinda have no choice so they slowly RACHET UP PRICES. its not just that.

now lets be serious for a second. it is unrealistic that all armies are equal. that they are all soooooo BAD and scary that the imperium could collapse from their threat at any moment. is this realistic? no, but any kid like that one who reads it instantly gets drawn in. again allllll about the profits. im not mad guys, just annoyed. i mean im a capitaliast and love business but cmon, theres a line between profits and keeping your customers well being in mind. and they dont know what that even means any more.... realistic story line??? or pump up each and every race so that they are the absolute baddest?? well the latter of the two will make us more money.... so ya that one.

I underlined the bits that really stood out to me. I dont think you are really angry about the prices which most people seem to be focusing on.

You are not angry that GW doesnt care about customers you are angry the dont care about you. GW is a buisness, its literally thier job to suck money out of us. Nothing personal. Once you realise this i think you will be less offended.*

The little 'kid' in your example is (knowingly or unknowingly) you.
You got sucked into buying overpriced little toy men with an unrealistic storyline. Twice.
Now you feel angry at GW because you have put lots of your time, effort and money into what you now consider an illogical pursuit.

Long story short, you are angry at yourself not GW.




*This is quite a common occurence, perhaps i could find a way for GW to make money from offended hobbyists. Plastic-crack helpline? I should so work for GW.:evilgrin:

Avatar_exADV
01-02-2011, 08:24
I think a number of people here are reading things into GW that might say more about the posters than they do about GW.

Fact is, I haven't seen a lot of oh-my-gawd codex creep lately. Yeah, the Space Wolves got a crazy-good book, and IG are hard as nails and cheap as dirt, points-wise. But the Blood Angels aren't an I-win button, the Dark Eldar are threatening but not indomitable, and the 'nids aren't half bad either. (At the last doubles tourney at the FLGS, the BA did not perform well - saw 'em go down to demons, to 'nids, to DE, even to Tau!)

As far as the fluff... well, everyone gets to be awesome in their own codex. I might wish that they'd put a little more effort into editing, to catch some of the really out-there stuff, but they're still pretty good reads.

And I've got nothing to complain about with respect to the models - they look great. I see some of the old stuff that people used to be perfectly happy with and I've got to just shake my head.

I don't think that GW has the best business model out there - clearly running retail stores as well as being a manufacturer creates tensions that affect their business. And I might wish that White Dwarf was fewer ads and ad-articles and more about paintin' interestingly weird models. And yeah, I guess cheaper wouldn't hurt anything. But I'm not fed up or disenchanted or even annoyed, and I don't imagine that there's some ideal company out there that's being "kept down" by GW's evil, evil sales tactic of selling me stuff I wanna buy. (Just hearing the guy at the friendly local game store yell at the Privateer Press people for not shipping him things he wants to sell...)

minitrol
01-02-2011, 08:29
@Hellebore

I see your point. I guess I do like the comic book larger than lifeness more than the old nihilism of the 80's. I think both are valid but I do understand what you meant now.

I think MOMUS is also partly correct. With age and now kids of my own there comes a point when you have to say what am I investing in here? For me it is still the community of friends and the ability to pass the time and not just drink till I black out like everyone. else down here : ).

Entertainment baseline is also an excellent idea. I know for me the contrast between the cost of a night out or buying a more Eldar, the Eldar win I just get more value out of it.

Mojaco
01-02-2011, 10:11
youre missing the point. it has nothing to do with them making money. Im all for it. it has to do with the fact that if a space marine is worth $1, but they know you have no where else to buy space marines from, theyll charge you $3. and over time more and more. thats all. i told you, i love capitalism but as a consumer i get annoyed at these behaviors
And you're in business school? If people are willing to pay $3, than it's worth $3. The worth of objects is abstract, depending solely on what people believe/decide something is worth. Is your time spend washing dishes worth $10 an hour? It is if you decide it is.

Games Workshop is just trying to get the best prize for their product. Something EVERY COMPANY IN THE WORLD does.

Poseidal
01-02-2011, 10:24
I also think a lot of quality and care of writing has gone in the current fluff too.

Reading some of the old fluff gives shivers down my spine; reading the new stuff makes me think 'Well, sure.'

I'm not sure it's nostalgia of youth; I never read WD127 until a couple of years ago and was introduced in 2nd ed, with the 2nd ed Eldar Codex and there was something phenomenal about it. Rick Priestly's writing on Power Armour and the Rogue Trader rulebook also carried that weight.

Maybe it was the process of the creation of something genuinely new? The closest I've seen was the Dark Eldar this edition, which may be the best since 1998 for me.

The above sounds wishy-washy, but there's something genuinely lacking in the current writing which I can't put my finger on.

Lord Damocles
01-02-2011, 10:41
GW doesnt care whatsoever about us. like not at all.
Welcome to the real world.


their whole philosophy is structured around the monopoly they created and operate. they know that they are the main guys in the tabletop modeling game and that we kinda have no choice so they slowly RACHET UP PRICES.
We [you] have choices other than GW. You just need to hunt them out.

Also, you can get GW [and/or equivalents] much cheaper if you shop around a little.


EVERY SINGLE TIME a new model or army comes out, the rules are written for that model so it is better than the rest. so that player will win. then, after its not so new, it gets nerfed.
Incorrect. Ref: 5th ed. Dark Eldar.


im thinking of the blood angels death guard black guys. and of course those models cost more.why not? lets screw the consumer over as much as possible.
Death Company are NOT overpowered. The kit also isn't bad by GW standards - you get a LOAD of bits.


i was on another site and some kid said he never played 40k but he stumbled on some tyranid lore that says this:

"Behind the Hive Fleets lie the barren husks of a dozen galaxies already consumed.

I think my imagination got stack overflow right now. How can you fight an enemy THIS powerful? Does the Imperium have any chance?"
Because every galaxy is as well defended as the Milky Way? :eyebrows:

Zweischneid
01-02-2011, 10:57
youre missing the point. it has nothing to do with them making money. Im all for it. it has to do with the fact that if a space marine is worth $1, but they know you have no where else to buy space marines from, theyll charge you $3. and over time more and more. thats all. i told you, i love capitalism but as a consumer i get annoyed at these behaviors

Well, they do so because consumers are willing to pay premiums on brands and names they know, trust and, crucially, identify with.

This is nothing unique to GW. Why is Nike charging stellar prices for sneakers or t-shirts that are at best marginally better than the no-name equivalents at the local pound-store that might quite likely even come from the same Bangladeshi Sweat-Shop? Why is Apple charging high premiums on simple flashdisc-music-players that can be build and shipped for pennies these days? You said you're at a business school.. than look up companies like Proctor & Gamble who run a Fortune 500 business doing little more but building "brand indentification" and than charging premiums for that.

GW can charge what it does because GW is GW (or 40K is 40K). You pay for it precisely because they managed to "hook" hobbyists with their "fluff" and "brand" which fosters identification of consumers with their purchase to the point where people on this board talk of "their" army (not meaning the models purchased, but the faction/race/etc.. more generally) and actively strife to emulate the provided background as closely as possible.

Wolf Lord Balrog
01-02-2011, 11:05
See here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5276651#post5276651) for what GW needs to do to get back on track financially, as well as giving better value for the customer's dollar.

The company's current practices are a prescription for a slow death, sure as the sun rises. Change is constant, the wise adapt.

Godzooky
01-02-2011, 11:19
and my conclusion is theyre jerks. (i would use stronger language but i got warned earlier for avoiding the swear filter? lol my bad)

Hmmm, still it seems you've managed to successfully evade the naive-world-viewpoint filter. :rolleyes:

Bunnahabhain
01-02-2011, 11:28
The current background writing is, on average, awful. The DE book has dragged that average up from really aweful.

GW have some major assets:

Their IP. The Universe they created, and are currently wrecking.

Customer loyalty. Which they seem to want to get rid of, as far as I can tell from their business practices, designed to promote short term interests.

Their moulds. (Only a few of which should be dropped) These rep[resent a huge investment, and a very useful one for anyone trying to make money from the universe.
---------------------------

As far as I can see, the shareholders have no long term confidence in the management, so pressure them for short term returns, which filters down to the design team, and pricing policies.
A decent medium term management plan ( ~5 years) that gave more focus to retaining customers would be much better for the company over that term, and much better for the games. Most companies put considerable effort into keeping existing customers,a s it's easier than getting new ones.

Better written rules ( simpler, deeper, more balanced) and better background writing are the keys.

Get them correct, and they work at two levels at once.
Simpler rules can be taught faster, so as to get people playing faster, and as you learn them properly, they get more depth. The current set, as you learn them properly, you can speed up play, but there is no more depth to find...

TimLeeson
01-02-2011, 16:12
For me, and only speaking for myself here - I've simply become bored of the "current" armies. After 16 years, im just yearning for something truly new and exciting, the DE release was nice - but not enough for me. My aesthetic taste is quite niche these days and GW havent produced an army that cater to that. Luckily my gaming group are very happy with counts-as and using other companies miniatures, so I have been able to play my enslavers, ulumeathi ect.

As for the backround, its much the same. The races I find interesting are the backround ones, especially from the FFG books - and to me the ones with models are just painfully boring nowadays. I cant count the number of times ill read a tidbit of fluff or see a picture of some new alien race and think "wow, thats so awesome" and then be like "oh wait..theres no models though". maybe my taste just wouldnt get enough customers though - and thats fair enough, they are a company, but id certainly like to see a few collectors models or see FW do a few kits at the most.

tezdal
01-02-2011, 16:19
For me, GW prices arn't worth it, I used to play 40k/FB/BFG but....the amount of money they charge I can buy multiple armies for multiple non-gw systems....but to each his own, if you think a plasic terminator is worth 10 bucks, more power to you.

For mankind
01-02-2011, 16:51
Okay this ain't new, it apperas regulary, but to me it always seems like it comes to a certain point.

GW wants money, to much money, and everybody at GW is to blame, exept for the customers, who buy it.
Right now I am a quite annoyed by myself, for ordering stuff worth 77€, althoug I alerady have enough, enough unfinished, and enough in the works right now.

Yep, but it's clearly my fault, because I had this insane idea to convert dark eldar females into sororitas.

So isn't there a small chance that we are angry at ourselfs for not being abel to resist? Resist to buy some more, build some more?
Nobody HAS to buy GW stuff it is complet optional, it's not like food or electric power or gas, which you really need. (at least most of us)

It is a certain small LUXUS, to collect and/or play with GW miniatures.

Well, I know a lot of you won't share my view on this, but still it seems to me
you are angy at yourselfs, for falling the temptation of GW.

INFO: This is my personal point of view, I can't back it up with satistical data
or sientific facts, or theories, you can agree, disagree, and have your very
own point of view.
There is no need to outrage about this post!

GrogDaTyrant
01-02-2011, 17:04
Customer loyalty. Which they seem to want to get rid of, as far as I can tell from their business practices, designed to promote short term interests.


Besides the rules and fluff issues, the destruction of Customer Loyalty has been the most readily apparent problem in my area. A year or 2 ago, we had a solid community at the local GW stores in my area. Smash cut to present after a good buddy of mine opened an independent store, and now that same community is building armies for other systems or has gone back to playing Magic. Most of them were notably non-loyalist marine players, and shared a similar dislike for the lopsided codex release schedules as well as the growing antiquity of their armies.

In the GW stores... all you pretty much see is marine players, newcomers, and the occasional die-hard.

yabbadabba
01-02-2011, 17:15
Surprised this hasn't been shut down or moved yet.

As for the OP - there are inconsistencies within your text that undermine your point. You have a point worth noting but your supporting evidence just doesn't bear up to scrutiny.

As for the replies - funnily enough there is enough on here to track both the evolution of GW as a business and to justify both GW and their ex-customers decisions.

Zweischneid
01-02-2011, 17:15
Besides the rules and fluff issues, the destruction of Customer Loyalty has been the most readily apparent problem in my area. A year or 2 ago, we had a solid community at the local GW stores in my area. Smash cut to present after a good buddy of mine opened an independent store, and now that same community is building armies for other systems or has gone back to playing Magic. Most of them were notably non-loyalist marine players, and shared a similar dislike for the lopsided codex release schedules as well as the growing antiquity of their armies.

In the GW stores... all you pretty much see is marine players, newcomers, and the occasional die-hard.


Which makes it evident why GW sees Marines as the more reliable, higher-margin business. You cannot please everyone, so why not please those whose tastes are less fickle, more predictable, and more loyal to the very core of your IP rather than its more generic/less trademarkeble fringes?

BattlePainter
01-02-2011, 17:20
my conclusion is theyre jerks. (i would use stronger language but i got warned earlier for avoiding the swear filter? lol my bad)

GW doesnt care whatsoever about us. like not at all. their whole philosophy is structured around the monopoly they created and operate. they know that they are the main guys in the tabletop modeling game and that we kinda have no choice so they slowly RACHET UP PRICES. its not just that.


I don't know man, coming onto a forum full of people who are here because they love the hobby that GW supplies them and then telling them that GW are jerks seems like your asking for an argument...

That being said sure the models have gone up in price but hasn't the quality of the models, the diversity of the rules and the number of stores that you can go into and play games for free in gone up to...

I think you need to realize that sure games workshop is out to make a profit like every company out there but that doesn't mean that because they have raised there prices that they don't care about there customers and see them all as nothing other then walking wallets.

TheWarmaster
01-02-2011, 17:26
But what else is there that's 40k like and supported with new rules and miniatures? I know theres Kings of War for fantasy, but I haven't seen anything scifi related ever.

yabbadabba
01-02-2011, 17:32
But what else is there that's 40k like and supported with new rules and miniatures? I know theres Kings of War for fantasy, but I haven't seen anything scifi related ever.HammerSlammers, Stargrunt, Urban War/Metropolis

Asher
01-02-2011, 17:41
While I completely agree on the free market notion; there is a good reason why kids became GWs target audience.

While they don't have as much money most grown-ups, they can be persuaded much easier to spend the moeny they have.

First time visiting a GW shop, just recently, I was suprized by the avid way GW staff wanted to stell me stuff. Nothing like I have ever seen in an other shop before.

GrogDaTyrant
01-02-2011, 17:46
Which makes it evident why GW sees Marines as the more reliable, higher-margin business. You cannot please everyone, so why not please those whose tastes are less fickle, more predictable, and more loyal to the very core of your IP rather than its more generic/less trademarkeble fringes?

In the short-term eyes of GW's shareholders, that is indeed how it would appear.

Except this community was made up of long-time supporters of the local GW stores (myself included), who have only recently become dissatisfied enough to move on to better game systems (and companies). We're talking a community that was dedicated to building terrain (on their dime), running store campaigns, running local tournaments, and actively supporting GW in it's endeavors. Many of them had several armies, and were dropping hundreds of dollars a week on their personal favorite faction. Again... myself included.

If all GW wants is newcomer marine players... well... they certainly achieved that.

archont
01-02-2011, 18:07
GW gets on my nerves

what do you guys think? am i being unfair?


People like you get on my nerves, and you're just being short sighted.

So what off it if my Eldar-Collection cost some 5000€? I've been playing this game for 15years come the 14th, with just one game a week that would've cost me like 1,50 a game, while in reality I do like 5 games a week - 30cents a game or something, get a grip, you pay more for coffee, cigarettes whatever

Nobody forces you to play
It's only expensive short term with insane value over time (unless you go and sell your models off anytime you loose some interest in the hobby - tough luck bying that army over and over again)


I have zero sympathy for you or your opinion, as far as hobbies goes this is cheap


Whats much worse is to have a "GW-is-expensive"-whinethread at least every couple of years


A good day to you sir :)

faithinanarchy
01-02-2011, 18:14
Aye, prices have gone up but so has everything else in ....except wages in the UK, thanks Tories, you're done it again. Politics aside, buy your models from somewhere other than GW shops. you can get them online cheaper, through amazon cheaper, gumtree, and last but not least: ebay!! I restarted playing this game about about three years ago after a 8 year break and have bought less than a dozen items from an actual GW shop. It is a capitalistic world so work with it!! pros and cons. supply and demand. would you rather live else where? [well, that does depend on where you actually live and i would rather live in Australia]

Nezalhualixtlan
01-02-2011, 18:29
what do you guys think? am i being unfair?

As a business student you should have some basic understanding of economics.

Games workshop is a business. They are not your friend. They are not here to care about you except to cater to the trends of the majority which they expect will bring them the best returns. They owe you nothing. They are in this to make money. Specifically, as a business, they are in this to maximize their long term profits.

There's nothing wrong with that. That is in fact what keeps them making these little pieces of plastic which you can enjoy if you are willing and able to shell out the money for them.

As a company, they probably enjoy some market power, though they are not a monopoly. Then can, and should increase their prices to what the market will bear for an efficient return and maximized profits. Regardless of that market power, they still need to contend with a downward sloping demand curve, and as a purveyor of plastic miniature toys which are not essential to anyone's life probably have to deal with a highly elastic price elasticity of demand for a luxury product.

If that doesn't work for you, you are free to vote with your dollars and opt not to buy their product, as someone either unwilling or unable to meet whatever equilibrium price the market has reached. You're also free to whine and groan about it, and I'm free not to read it or listen or respond if I don't care to. Assuming you are in a relatively free country, you are also free to pursue better work and a higher level of education to get more money to become able or more willing to shell out the prices they set.

That's how business works. It's cold, calculating, methodical, and wonderful in its efficiency if it is any good. Deal with it.

Joustarr
01-02-2011, 19:04
There has been alot written about 'good business practices' here. But nothing about customers. Whatever the plan is, it's nothing without satisfied customers.
If you look at GW's financial stuff for the current financial year, you wont see a shinning example of profitable commerce. Looking at the posts in this and a number of other threads, indicates GW has not only 'got on customers nerves' it has alienated them. Having worked in the industry, my proffessional opinion is that the above points are linked.

Simo429
01-02-2011, 19:05
I agree with the OP I wrote a blog entry last week http://clawsandfists.blogspot.com/2011/01/dirtiest-word-in-british-40k.html

on how I thought GW continually annoyed their most profitable market by going for the kids.

The hard sell
the overpricing
the availability of their products elsewhere at a fraction of the price

all add up to GW not caring about twentysomething gamers.

And yet their stock continues to fall and they do nothing but put up prices.

Godzooky
01-02-2011, 19:12
I agree with the OP I wrote a blog entry last week http://clawsandfists.blogspot.com/2011/01/dirtiest-word-in-british-40k.html

on how I thought GW continually annoyed their most profitable market by going for the kids.

The hard sell
the overpricing
the availability of their products elsewhere at a fraction of the price

all add up to GW not caring about twentysomething gamers.

And yet their stock continues to fall and they do nothing but put up prices.

You ever thought the reason they go for kids is because they, not you, as a twenty-something, are their most profitable market? Let's face it, they're not going after them for sparkling conversation.

Simo429
01-02-2011, 19:13
I don't believe that kids who have to ask mum and dad for the money to buy models are bigger sales than your hardcore gamers with thousands of points and multiple armies.

t-tauri
01-02-2011, 19:14
Price complaints go here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209297). Thread closed.