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Aun'aart'al
01-02-2011, 09:13
Hi, I've been trying to find some information online relating to ork "kroosades," in relation to their fleet numbers and the number of orks taking part. I understand that it varies greatly, but the only numbers I have to go on are the ones published in the Armageddon 'dex some years back. I am trying to include these numbers for a campaign I am helping to organize, and it feels like a very lazy approach to just take the armageddon numbers and divide by 10, 20, 30, whatever. The goal for the size of this waaagh can only be so large, it needs to be its typical pain in the rear for the defenders across half a dozen worlds at most, each with populations well into the billions, but it cant simply walk over the defenders and proceed to "eat" them while they flee, you know?

like I said, I have been trying to find some numbers online, however everytime I have come by a lead, it turns out to be someone telling how they are starting their ork fleet, a fleet list, or people asking for opinions on which ships they should take

I don't really have much literature relating to orks, not much more than footnotes really. I was wondering if any of the ork players on WarSeer might either have some better understanding or better access to a hard copy that might hint at some numbers

for all I know the ork waaagh I am trying to have could contain anywhere from several 10's of thousands, to several hundred million orks *shrugs* I honestly do not know. Maybe someone knows of a location or something on the 'net that has this info? I'd greatly appreciate it :confused:

Vet.Sister
01-02-2011, 12:32
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Category:Battles_(Orks)

The lexicanum has some articles, not sure if they list numbers, but you might be able to extrapolate some figures from this page.

Aun'aart'al
02-02-2011, 01:03
I could be mistaken, but all I found from the articles available (excluding the 3 or 4 armageddon ones) were either hundreds to thousands of orks at one particular battle or another, but they were never involved in the same areas of the galaxy. I have a general idea of how many orks are typically in a warband thanks to the armageddon codex, but I have no clue how many warbands might be typically involved in a conflict that has grown to involve as many as half a dozen worlds within the same area of space

impala
02-02-2011, 01:12
Can you enlighten us how the numbers will be useful?

Aun'aart'al
02-02-2011, 01:19
Sure thing!

I will take the numbers and utilize them as part of the campaign to give each faction a clear image of just how large each is compared to the other. I could simply say "faction A is 3x larger than faction B," but how large is faction A to begin with? Basically I'm trying to do something along the lines of what was presented in the back of the Armageddon codex :)

Kulgur
02-02-2011, 01:20
I get the impression that a Waaagh is only classified as such by the administratum after it's done a certain amount of damage and has a certain amount of potential for more damage.

Waaagh Garaghak from IA8 only got declared a Waaagh a few conquered planets after the Kastorel Novem raid that the book covers, and that ran at an estimated 2 billion orks

Aun'aart'al
02-02-2011, 03:03
Waaagh Garaghak from IA8 only got declared a Waaagh a few conquered planets after the Kastorel Novem raid that the book covers, and that ran at an estimated 2 billion orks

that waaagh only conquered a few planets with a few billion orks? I dont understand, the Waaagh that attacked Armageddon numbered 1,144 warbands, and the book details how they can go anywhere from 600 to 3000 warriors, or 686,400 to 3,432,000 ork warriors, not including speed kult or artillery warbands, and that was supposed to be the largest concentrated ork attack in the Imperiums history (if memory serves me right), or has the author of IA8 just ignored that, like GW authors so frequently seem to do?

Kulgur
02-02-2011, 03:11
that waaagh only conquered a few planets with a few billion orks?

As I said, it was only declared a Waaagh AFTER taking those planets, one of which was the primary hive world for the sector and took 8 years to fall

Mannimarco
02-02-2011, 03:46
Theres a star map in IA apocalypse (or maybe apocalypse reloaded) showing how several warbands came together and formed a waaagh, I cant remember if it give fleet and troop numbers though.

Grubnar
04-02-2011, 13:29
I always imagine a Waagh being a bit like the German army that invaded the Soviet Union.
I think it was about 2 million strong, split into 3 army groups.
You can compare that to the unstoppable juggernaut that was the Red Army outside Berlin in spring 1945 come calling for revenge!!

If you are intereested in some real world examples that is.

Crazy Ivan
04-02-2011, 13:58
that waaagh only conquered a few planets with a few billion orks? I dont understand, the Waaagh that attacked Armageddon numbered 1,144 warbands, and the book details how they can go anywhere from 600 to 3000 warriors, or 686,400 to 3,432,000 ork warriors, not including speed kult or artillery warbands, and that was supposed to be the largest concentrated ork attack in the Imperiums history (if memory serves me right), or has the author of IA8 just ignored that, like GW authors so frequently seem to do?
Sounds like the normal GW numbers "fluff-up" to me. Probably the variation also depends on how dangerous the writer in question deems an individual ork to be: a hyper-agressive, super-resilient killing machine, or a technologically backward, unarmoured green barbarian?

However, considering that Orks are supposed to be more numerous than humans in the Milky Way galaxy (and that they can have about the same numbers as an Imperial Guard army on the table top), I'd say a Waaagh! of several billion ork to attack half a dozen medium-to-high population worlds sounds reasonably plausible.

Marovian
04-02-2011, 17:42
GW are awful at getting there fluff right for numbers.

Consider this: An imperial world, 10 billion population. Industrial so not feral, cut off, or anything exotic like that. Say, 1% of the population is in the PDF, that's 100 million troops. Then figure in reservists and militia, lets say 300 million available in a short time. So your Orks have got to get past the system defences, any ships that might get in the way, and the planterary defences, before they take on 300 million troops. True, these are not IG or Marines, but they can still shoot and resist. And if the campaign lasts longer than a few weeks, not only will out of system reinforcements arrive but there will be a draft, so the numbers just keep going up. Australia put 1 in 7 of it's population into uniform during WW2, so think about it in those terms. After all, this planet is fighting for survival and is likely to give everyone a gun.

So just for that one planet, an invasion of several 100 million orks is not unlikely, and they're going to need reinforcements as the campaign progressed...

iPaint
06-02-2011, 07:52
Not to mention that, as word gets out of a good scrap, more Orks flock to the fight and the Waaagh! gets bigger.

In terms of numbers, I'd say the sky's the limit. Find me one person who would argue against your numbers, and I'll show you one person who's looking into the matter entirely too much. Go with what you feel seems reasonable for the scale you are planning your campaign.

~iPaint

Aun'aart'al
06-02-2011, 08:12
Not to mention that, as word gets out of a good scrap, more Orks flock to the fight and the Waaagh! gets bigger.

In terms of numbers, I'd say the sky's the limit. Find me one person who would argue against your numbers, and I'll show you one person who's looking into the matter entirely too much. Go with what you feel seems reasonable for the scale you are planning your campaign.

~iPaint

Ok, so then say ~40 billion Orks spread across 5-9 planets wouldn't be too much? Would they still be limited at 600-3000 warriors/warband?

Marovian
06-02-2011, 08:24
I can't see why they would. Ork warbosses attract followers based on their success and strength, so it doesn't make sense that a really successful warboss would only attract 3000 warriors.

Avatar_exADV
06-02-2011, 08:41
It's a problem of management. You've got one great big mighty warboss up at the top, but he doesn't have time to deal with every little thing, he's got a waaagh to plan. So he's got other bosses who follow him (so long as 'e's winnin', heh), and then they've got bosses under them, etc, etc. IA 8 talks some about the politics of the waaagh, how Big Mek Buzzgob rose to the importance he has (basically, by making nice dreads and lots of 'em), and how there are other bands in the area under different bosses, all of which have a complicated relationship to Buzzgob's operation.

Just keep in mind that not all orks are combatants. I mean, sure, if you drop on them they'll grab choppas and shootas and scream their lungs out while chargin' at ya, but that doesn't mean that an invasion involves taking every ork on one planet and dropping them on another. Plenty of orks get left behind (much to their disappointment!) and they build up strength to send supplies and reinforcements, not to mention defend the place against drop infantry and Raven Guard...

Aun'aart'al
06-02-2011, 08:49
I just find it difficult to avoid going past the ork numbers from the Armageddon codex, because that was supposed to be the most successful ork warlord, with the most Orks assembled in one waaagh

Marovian
06-02-2011, 10:19
It's GW not really getting to grips with the scale of planetary invasion. Like a couple of companyies of Marines taking a planet, or a few regiments of guard doing likewise. A planet is a big place, with lots of people and soldiers who all need killing. Going to take some time.

LonelyPath
06-02-2011, 18:28
It's GW not really getting to grips with the scale of planetary invasion. Like a couple of companyies of Marines taking a planet, or a few regiments of guard doing likewise. A planet is a big place, with lots of people and soldiers who all need killing. Going to take some time.

Taking a planet doesn't necessarily mean what you put though. it can be as simple as displacing the current government and putting their own in place instead. Conquering a Hive World would require alot of world (taking all of the main hives for one thing, each populated by a possible a billion or more people (often less though)), now that would require a full siege campaign. But most worlds, as I initially stated could be taken alot more easily.

shadowhawk2008
07-02-2011, 09:39
It's GW not really getting to grips with the scale of planetary invasion. Like a couple of companyies of Marines taking a planet, or a few regiments of guard doing likewise. A planet is a big place, with lots of people and soldiers who all need killing. Going to take some time.

You also have to understand that sometimes taking a planet involves only deposing the current leadership and cutting out its main military strength. The rest is done by the threat of further reprisals against the populace if they interfere. Also the marines are a rapid-response force and once they subdue the planet for a while, the Imperium no doubt moves in other forces afterwards to take care of the remaining process.

Aun'aart'al
07-02-2011, 09:40
You also have to understand that sometimes taking a planet involves only deposing the current leadership and cutting out its main military strength. The rest is done by the threat of further reprisals against the populace if they interfere. Also the marines are a rapid-response force and once they subdue the planet for a while, the Imperium no doubt moves in other forces afterwards to take care of the remaining process.

you are assuming of course, that space marine support would be available

Marovian
07-02-2011, 11:00
I was referring mainly to an ork style invasion where you are likely to get organised resistance from the whole populous. I agree, in the case of a rogue government who declared independence without telling the population, or without popular support, they would be Marine fodder. If, however, the whole planet was rebelling and willing to fight, killing the government is unlikely to work, so a large scale invasion would be needed.

shadowhawk2008
07-02-2011, 11:29
you are assuming of course, that space marine support would be available

If the SM are in the area and happen on the scene or their aid is requested by the Segmentum Command then yes.