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AlphariusOmegon20
02-02-2011, 17:00
Looking at the Sallie Baal Pred I built using the Flamestorm Cannons and HF sponsons, the question occurred to me: Should the Sallies had gotten the Flamer Version of the Baal Predator?

It does beg to question why that was not given to them.

Previous to this codex, BA never were known as a flame heavy army. I do not begrudge them their Baal Pred with Ass Cannons. That has existed for a few editions now.

Had this been given to the Sallies, it would have possibly been the catalyst for finally giving them their own codex, finally representing them as the chapter they are, not some Ultramarine wannabes as they are portrayed now. Mat Ward missed a great opportunity to make a name for himself, leading the charge on such a project.

It's not like they do not have an abundance of characters to pull from. Vel'cona, He'stan, Tushan, Xavier, etc.... Such a project could have been done by now.

It's also not like they didn't have some precedent. They had a list in Codex: Armageddon that could be used as a start point for such a project. It merely needed to be fleshed out a bit more.

So your opinion. Should they have gotten it? Should they have their own codex sans Flamer Baal Pred?

Castigator
02-02-2011, 17:03
Short answer? No.

Bunnahabhain
02-02-2011, 17:04
Nope.
One marine codex, and all the complaints about chapter X not getting Option Y on vehicle Z dissappear.

I know it's revolutionary, but is there anything wrong with saying 'These are the noted chapter preferences for this chapter, use them as you will' and trusting people to apply them to the options?
There is no reason why Salamanders would always use Heavy flamer sponsons, and that ultramarines never would. Salamanders doing so more often? Fine

EDIT:
@Nixonasdaemonprince, see the current one marine codex thread " first founding codex chapters" I think, as to why many, many people think that fewer, not more marine codices would be a good thing, and why we think multiple marine books do exist...

NixonAsADaemonPrince
02-02-2011, 17:06
I would love to see a Salamander Codex, they are one of my favourite chambers. Flamestorm Predators do make perfect sense for Salamanders, and as you say there are plenty of other characters and units available for them.

What's the problem with multiple marine codices as well? Xenos are still being updated regularly, so what's the big deal? It adds more and more variety and interest to the hobby.

Mannimarco
02-02-2011, 17:18
Salamanders get enough love as it is. Whilst its true everybody wishes they were an ultramarine far to many marine armies are led by Vulkan. Who left the door to the cloning labs unlocked so Vulkan could go in and clone himself a few hundred times anyway?

Im with Bunnahabhain there on the "one codex to rule them all" approach, who knows, maybe with one marine dex it would cut down on all this "why does chapter x get this vehicle? my chapter y should have gotten it....oh well is it cool if I take it anyway? I mean a marine is a marine is a marine after all". Might even speed up the codex cycle as well.

Should they have gotten the Baal pred? No they shouldnt

Should there be a codex salamanders? of course there should, its right behind codex death guard, codex iron warriors, codex alpha legion, codex ulthwe, codex farsight enclave, codex tallarns, codex necromundan 8th "the spiders" and codex bad moons.

althathir
02-02-2011, 19:16
Its gonna sound hypocritical considering I play space wolves but I don't think Sallies really have enough justification to have their own codex.

Firstly the way they differ from codex astartes isn't trait based like space wolves/blood angels (gene seed leading to different table top effects) , black templars (vow system though I can see this being debatable), and grey knights (large number of psychers). There is reference to them being slower than other marines but still faster than normal humans which in game terms maybe the captains stay at int 4 but that isn't really noteworthy (plus i think vulkan does have int 5 :)).

The main difference between them and codex astartes is that they have a different company structure 6 of 120 and some scouts. Equipment wise they prefrer flamers and thunderhammers, and have more sets of artificer armor but in itself that doesn't really justify a codex.

edit: I really do think that the chaos legions should get a book, and I think the non-codex astartes marines could be condensed a bit

TheLaughingGod
02-02-2011, 19:21
Its gonna sound hypocritical considering I play space wolves but I don't think Sallies really have enough justification to have their own codex.

Firstly the way they differ from codex astartes isn't trait based like space wolves/blood angels (gene seed leading to different table top effects) , black templars (vow system though I can see this being debatable), and grey knights (large number of psychers). There is reference to them being slower than other marines but still faster than normal humans which in game terms maybe the captains stay at int 4 but that isn't really noteworthy (plus i think vulkan does have int 5 :)).

The main difference between them and codex astartes is that they have a different company structure 6 of 120 and some scouts. Equipment wise they prefrer flamers and thunderhammers, and have more sets of artificer armor but in itself that doesn't really justify a codex.

edit: I really do think that the chaos legions should get a book, and I think the non-codex astartes marines could be condensed a bit

Honestly, you need to remember that once upon a time, Space Wolves were regular marines who had fake fangs and Leman Russ was just some commander guy. It's only because those differences were given to you later on that you have the ability to say "Well, Space Wolves are different"

Zweischneid
02-02-2011, 19:23
Its gonna sound hypocritical considering I play space wolves but I don't think Sallies really have enough justification to have their own codex.

Firstly the way they differ from codex astartes isn't trait based like space wolves/blood angels (gene seed leading to different table top effects) , black templars (vow system though I can see this being debatable), and grey knights (large number of psychers). There is reference to them being slower than other marines but still faster than normal humans which in game terms maybe the captains stay at int 4 but that isn't really noteworthy (plus i think vulkan does have int 5 :)).

The main difference between them and codex astartes is that they have a different company structure 6 of 120 and some scouts. Equipment wise they prefrer flamers and thunderhammers, and have more sets of artificer armor but in itself that doesn't really justify a codex.

edit: I really do think that the chaos legions should get a book, and I think the non-codex astartes marines could be condensed a bit

Well, to be fair, Black Templars were a stock-and-file Codex Chapter until they got their Codex. So assuming Salamanders would get a Codex of their own, one would guess that they change them around enough to also justify a Codex of their own; perhaps centred around their galaxy-wide treasure-hunt or something along those lines.

Actually thinking about it, quite ironically, the existing Salamander-fluff might be the biggest reason against a Salamanders Codex: If GW wants to do a new Marine-Codex, I believe they might just as likely pick a Chapter with far less (ideally nothing but a pre-existing cool name) existing fluff than Salamanders, so they could go creatively wild on a new Dex.

Lord Damocles
02-02-2011, 19:26
God, no!

The Blood Angels don't need the flamer Baal, or their own codex, let alone ANOTHER variant list for slightlylessdarkgreenMarines.

Korraz
02-02-2011, 19:32
Well, to be fair, Black Templars were a stock-and-file Codex Chapter until they got their Codex.


They still are. Army-Wide rerolls (which will get sacked) and scouts in the tactical squad. You can fit that in one little passage. Just like "Our vehicles are fast, assaulties are troops", or "Our scouts have power armor, and our vets don't. Also, our Devastors can shoot in two directions and we don't like teleporters."

Salamanders don't need the Baal or a codex. They need one page in the main book, just like every other chapter.

Mcbruce
02-02-2011, 19:57
No. Sisters of battle on the other hand...maybe.

IAMNOTHERE
02-02-2011, 20:02
The only new MEQ dex I want to see is a Chaos one. In what way do the Sallies not follow the Codex Astartes? Can you but flamers/meltas for most squads?

Illiterate Scribe
02-02-2011, 21:04
Salamanders have literally no character beyond flame weapons, meltaguns and hammers. Any examples of a Salamanders army, squad, nay, even an independent character or squad member without one is a ridiculous travesty against the fluff; for the flamer template and the melta weapon characteristic belong to the Sons of Vulkan and them alone.

xerxeshavelock
02-02-2011, 21:14
Hmmm. Flame tank for the flamy marines. Probably. Don't think they need a codex though.

(as to the question of them being fast, or any Predator varient, that I have other opinions on. Ones that this thread doesn't cover)

Emeraldw
02-02-2011, 21:21
What's the problem with multiple marine codices as well? Xenos are still being updated regularly, so what's the big deal? It adds more and more variety and interest to the hobby.

I agree. Contrary to the general belief, I think having Marine codex's is quite interesting. Especially with how hard they are to make each marine play differently. Blood Angels are far more now than "red marines" as Space Wolves are more than "slightly grey marines."

But no one asked me....

Gotten the Baal Predator? No, overcharged engines don't make much sense for Salamanders. Flamer based tank of some sort? Certainly, that seems much more Salamander-y. Devil Dog/Hell-hound esque might be more appropriate.

As for a Salamander Codex, well I personally would like to see a codex for all the First legions. Though thankfully you can use Blood Angels to get a pretty close Raven Guard if you want. But I would like to see one for the major chaos powers as well. I also wouldn't mind seeing models and a codex for a variety of things in the 40k universe. As long as each gets updated in a reasonable time frame (3-4 years too much to ask?) I don't mind.

Bonzai
02-02-2011, 21:24
While I did initially have a similar reaction when I saw the flamer option, I really don't think they need their own dex. Here is a cut and paste answer I made from another recent thread.

::Paste::
I voted no.

I would much rather have one huge codex with all the chapters listed with their various tweeks and modifications. I think the Chapter Tactics idea was a good one, but they botched it by attaching them to special characters.

They should have a couple page breakdown on each founding legion, with the hint that their special rules apply to their successors as well. All have the basic ATSKNF, Combat Squads, etc.., and be organized by:

Legion Name:
Chapter Tactics:
Special Tactics/Doctrin:
Special Equipement:
Special Characters:

For example, an entry for Salamanders.

Salamanders
Chapter Tactics: The Promethean Way (same as Vulkan's current chapter tactics)
Special Tactics/Doctrin: Tactical squads can chose to substitute their heavy weapon for an additional flamer or melta. This exemplifies that they prefer to be up close and personal and assault, instead of stand back and shoot. In addition Command squads and vanguard veterans may take artificer armor for 10 points per model. Special Librarian power: Fury of the Salamander.
Special Equipement: Hvy flamers are available as a free hvy weapons choice to Tac Squads, CC weapons for captains and chapter masters can be upgraded to Master Craft for additional points.
Special Characters: Vulkan, +?

There you go, a nice fluffy, representational, and doesn't take an entire codex to represent. Figure 4-6 pages would cover it.
Page 1: Describes the chapter.
Page 2: Historical time line of notable battles.
Page 3: Rules, tactics, doctrine.
Page 4+: Special Characters with one page each.

Do the same with the other chapters, and you have a nice big book that is probably selling for $50-6o, but covers everything. Odds are it will never happen with the new SW's and BA's being chuck full of wolf this, and blood that. Black Templar's would also be problematic. However it would be what I would like to see in the 6th edition marine dex. Which I would like to see repeated with the Chaos legions and Craftworlds.

::end paste::

Besides... do we realy want them to get a codex? Before we know it they will be half dragon, breathing fire, and riding giant flaming lizards into battle.

Wolf Lord Balrog
02-02-2011, 21:25
To answer the original question of the OP, yes Salamanders should have access to the Flamestorm Cannon version of the Baal. Only they wouldn't call it the Baal Predator, they'd call it the Nocturne Predator. :)

Edit: And to respond to the people saying 'BAs should have the Baal exclusively because they invented it and it distinguishes them from other chapters', useful fact: the Space Wolves invented the Annihilator-pattern Predator, but other chapters copied it in short order. The only reason the Baal is unique to the BAs is that other chapters don't find that it fits their combat style, not because the BAs have some special technical knowledge that the techmarines of other chapters couldn't duplicate.

As to the secondary discussion developing, about who 'deserves' a codex of their own, nobody does. Codices as they currently exist are an artifact of an anachronistic business model. Armybooks should be published as free PDFs online, containing nothing more than the basic army list information, and maybe one or two pages of pictures. That's it. All fluff and additional artwork should be published as a separate book through Black Library, in which there would be no problem at all combining pictures and fluff of multiple factions in one book.

Once you reduce the 'codex' to just the basic army list information (which in modern armybooks seems to take no more than around 15-20 pages), the need to 'justify' whether one faction or another 'deserves' its own army list disappears, and diversity flourishes.

Lothlanathorian
02-02-2011, 22:30
I think they shouldn't. However, I would concede to allowing them a Predator with a Flamestorm (ie: Not a Fast vehicle). Or to allow them to have Heavy Flamer sponsons on their Preds.

PatchOnMyShoulder
02-02-2011, 22:41
I voted no because they definitely don't need it with the Fast rule which is pretty BA themed, and we don't need another 'dex for a Army that's basically Ultramarines except for a few exceptions they can already do with a pretty butt kicking special character.

That said it would be cool to see a WD or something version of the Predator with say a Heavy flamer and Melta's or something for them... though given it could be stacked with Vulkan either make it twin linked already (so it's not stacking), or point cost it in accordance to the fact in most Sally lists it will effectively be TL'd. In a pinch yeah a BP with flame options and the Fast off would work, but I think if we're talking the Salamanders, a forge oriented chapter, we can do one better and give them more flair then just a partial rip off of another chapters special vehicle. [Unless for fluff reasons their's some BA/Sally connection either existing or desirable. The Chapters are both artisans after all]

A long while back in a storyline game that was going on, a Salamander player had to torch as many Tyranid eggs as he could in a game before the nids got him. We let him use Hellhounds to do it because the game was already beyond the core rules [he had only d3+1 turns, and had a nid force 3x his side against him], but at the time it was even discussed how could an army that's said to be master smiths and experts in a way on flame and melta weapons have not slapped a few onto their vehicles.
[Pintle mounting flamers and meltas was also discussed]

Obviously for real 40k though, it'd be cool to see this done... and maybe a jeep style vehicle for White Scars, etc... but I'd have to ask myself "Who's on staff writing the official stuff aht goes in WD these days?". GW's got some writers that could do an awesome job doing stuff like this, and some that would make me fear for the metagame.

Lothlanathorian
02-02-2011, 22:46
A long while back in a storyline game that was going on, a Salamander player had to torch as many Tyranid eggs as he could in a game before the nids got him. We let him use Hellhounds to do it because the game was already beyond the core rules [he had only d3+1 turns, and had a nid force 3x his side against him], but at the time it was even discussed how could an army that's said to be master smiths and experts in a way on flame and melta weapons have not slapped a few onto their vehicles.
[Pintle mounting flamers and meltas was also discussed]


So, what you are saying here is that, for fun, fluffy reasons, you let someone use a unit from a different Codex? :shifty:

Nezalhualixtlan
02-02-2011, 22:49
So, what you are saying here is that, for fun, fluffy reasons, you let someone use a unit from a different Codex? :shifty:

That's a different thread, isn't it?

Lothlanathorian
02-02-2011, 22:52
That's a different thread, isn't it?

It is, and I must apologize for dragging it into here. Also, honestly, that sounds like a pretty nifty scenario.

And I totally agree with everything he said in his post. Sallies with non-Fast burninator tanks would be acceptable.

Korraz
02-02-2011, 22:54
Edit: And to respond to the people saying 'BAs should have the Baal exclusively because they invented it and it distinguishes them from other chapters', useful fact: the Space Wolves invented the Annihilator-pattern Predator, but other chapters copied it in short order. The only reason the Baal is unique to the BAs is that other chapters don't find that it fits their combat style, not because the BAs have some special technical knowledge that the techmarines of other chapters couldn't duplicate.


They didn't invent it. And no, the othe Marines didn't choose to leave it alone because "It didn't fit their style." In fact, the Baal-Pattern engines are produced from a STK the Angels never shared with the Mechanicus. The other chapters would love to get them and the Mechanicus would kill to get their oily claws on those things, leading to battles between retrieval teams and Mechanicus "explorers."

HerrDusty
02-02-2011, 23:01
They didn't invent it. And no, the othe Marines didn't choose to leave it alone because "It didn't fit their style." In fact, the Baal-Pattern engines are produced from a STK the Angels never shared with the Mechanicus. The other chapters would love to get them and the Mechanicus would kill to get their oily claws on those things, leading to battles between retrieval teams and Mechanicus "explorers."

Which makes the fluff behind Blood Angels getting eary access to the Stormraven even dafter. So, they won't share the Baal STC with the Mechanicus for whatever petty reason, yet the Mechanicus are allowing this insular, selfish Chapter early access to a newly sanctified vehicle in the armouries of the Imperium, so they can test it?

I'm not sure Matt Ward thought this one through properly :rolleyes:

Wolf Lord Balrog
02-02-2011, 23:03
They didn't invent it. And no, the othe Marines didn't choose to leave it alone because "It didn't fit their style." In fact, the Baal-Pattern engines are produced from a STK the Angels never shared with the Mechanicus. The other chapters would love to get them and the Mechanicus would kill to get their oily claws on those things, leading to battles between retrieval teams and Mechanicus "explorers."

So you are saying, despite the ingenuity shown by SW Iron Priests in constructing the Annihilator, that there is no way at all they could copy the Baal if they wanted to? That in the entire 10,000+ year history of all Space Marine chapters, not one techmarine, ever, could ever figure out how to copy the capabilities, if not the exact design, of BA fast engines? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

It makes much more sense that they did a kind of cost/benefit analysis, looked at how such vehicles fit into their combat doctrine, and what resources it would take to manufacture, use, and maintain such vehicles, and they said, 'No thanks.'

Vaktathi
02-02-2011, 23:07
The salamanders certainly don't need their own codex. The Baal honestly being BA only is simply there to hamfist artificial differentiation to justify the existence of a distinct BA codex. Far more extensive retcons have occurred than making the Baal available to all.

ehlijen
02-02-2011, 23:20
So you are saying, despite the ingenuity shown by SW Iron Priests in constructing the Annihilator, that there is no way at all they could copy the Baal if they wanted to? That in the entire 10,000+ year history of all Space Marine chapters, not one techmarine, ever, could ever figure out how to copy the capabilities, if not the exact design, of BA fast engines? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

It makes much more sense that they did a kind of cost/benefit analysis, looked at how such vehicles fit into their combat doctrine, and what resources it would take to manufacture, use, and maintain such vehicles, and they said, 'No thanks.'

In the 40k universe, there is no such thing as 'trying to figure out how something works'. You either find old plans that tell you how to do it or you don't do it. The space wolves innovated the Predator once in an hour of desperate need. And even then, they were careful not to change the basic chassis. They just had a situation where they had more lascannon than marines left to use them, so they stuck 2 to a tank. They did not stick an entirely different engine into their predators, as the blood angels did.

If you build something new, you have a) no idea it will hold up in combat conditions, b) noone will want to try it in combat conditions unless you hold up the piece of paper that says 'grandpa approves' and c) you won't find spare parts anywhere but in your one personal factory. Sure, emergencies can overrule those, but no space marine has ever complained that he had more assault cannons than terminators to carry them.

It doesn't make sense to you because you weren't indoctrinated by a brutal regime paranoid of change because the god of change is trying to kill your saviour.

Colonel Kolm
02-02-2011, 23:21
I like the salamanders but really they are supposed to be a pretty standard chapter these days, and i think they have enough attention as it is. would it be neat for them to have something like that, yes it would, but i just don't really think it would add enough in general to make a huge difference, and in the end if they got it why shouldn't every other chapter in the regular space marine codex. so in the end no i just don't think its worth it or justifiable.

AlphariusOmegon20
03-02-2011, 08:34
A quick note: I never considered keeping the over charged engines for the Sallies.

I merely assumed they would use normal Pred engines and it would move from being a Fast Attack in BA book to a Heavy Support for the Sallies.

Jind_Singh
03-02-2011, 08:34
Nah = keep it the way it is - I would LOVE ravens in my army or some of the other things in other books - but why? The Space Wolves and Blood Angels don't get some of the codex units - so why go the other way? Codex chapters are less inclined to create variants - hence they are codex chapters.

The only thing I would have changed was if the HQ (not blooming special character) of a specific chapter, say Imperial Fists, would replace the generic combat tactics with a chapter specific rule - hence we wouldn't see SO many games with the special dudes being...well not so special as more common!

vahouth
03-02-2011, 08:56
I voted No.
If someone reads the story behind the Baal Predator, will know that the BAs have it, they don't share it and other Marine chapters are not interested in it because it contradicts the Codex Astartes.
Besides even if somehow the Salamanders got their hands on it, without Lucifer Engines and/or Scout, I don't see how usefull could it be...
For now they can complement their lists with Redeemers and HF Razorbacks.
They could use an option for pintle mounted meltas or flamers on Rhinos though that could be interesting.
More fitting for them than the Baal could be the use of some kind of special incendiary blasting ammo for their Predators.
Just a few thoughts...:angel:

Elhier
03-02-2011, 12:18
new codex? NO, but they should defo of got it. i think that the chapter tactics from the previous marine dex would solve this problem perfectly, a few tweaks ect nd it would allow varient lists like salamanders to be made.

OR

maybe army wide special rules should be paid for, like wargear, but for your entire army, so for a salamanders army, the option would be: for x points all ur units get the following chapter tactics, mayne unlocking special wargeer for ur chapter masters ect.

Sparowl
03-02-2011, 12:34
No, a vehicle with flamers mounted on the side should've gone to SoB.

Or Orks, to help represent an Arch-Arsonist army.

Casper Hawser
10-02-2011, 21:21
I feel pretty bad sayin no after aruguing for every space marine chapter to get the StormRaven but no
I do think chapters like the raven guard, salamanders, iron hands,fists should all get a little bit more say:
All Raven gaurd and successors get jump infantry as troops
Salamanders and successors get the rules vulkan offers and can stick a flamestorm cannon on a Predator
Something along those lines.

Minsc
10-02-2011, 21:57
We really don't need more Loyalist chapter codexes.
We still have armies that got 3d/4th Ed. codexes, and I'd much rather see that they get new codexes than 'yet another space marine codex'.

XmarvX
10-02-2011, 22:13
Rather than seeing another marine codex, I would much rather see all marine codeci's combined into one.
They could even keep the unique chapters with some sort of geneseed design system... like pick a primarch from the origional 20 for your chapter traits... they could whip up a list of 20 chapter traits on a page that denotes what changes each one can make to the standard marine army list. This could cover every possible space marine chapter.
The only reason I can see to warrent the seperate books is to incorporate the chapter specific fluff. which could be included into my imaginary book, potentially making it quite a chunky book. I remember the 2nd edition Angels of Death Codex for BA and DA, Im sure it contained considerably more fluff than both of the new books combined and it was chunkier than any of our current codeci's, and it never occured to me that it being a decent sized book is a problem.

Ofcourse games workshop would have less books to overprice this way, so we will never see a user friendly all marines under one title book I suspect.

The possibility of your Salamanders book remians because it would be another product for gw to sell us. but currently there isnt enough fluff to make a book, nor are the chapters traits particularly special from index astartes.

Hey I also think we should do away with special characters on the table top, Do we all really like to stare at pedro kantor all the time? just cus the player wants sternguard troops. We could have a character building system for us to create our own unique characters without them being necessarily overpowered if only games workshop would give us some official creation rules... something like the primarch traits I said about would probably do. Or even it could be part of the same set of traits.

Chem-Dog
10-02-2011, 22:21
Sallies need a twin Multimelta Pred with Melta Sponsons.

And Ceramite armour.

Or perhaps a pred that fires thunderhammers....

Weapon based "theming" is boring.

Justicar_Freezer
10-02-2011, 23:31
I don't think the Sallies should have gotten the flamestorm baal pred. The baal pred has always been a BA vehicle ever since it's introduction in 3rd edition back when there wasn't much more on sallies then a paintscheme and a name. I don't really think the BA's needed it either. In my games that I have had with the new codex I've used the flamestorm option once.

As for the whole do marine chapters need their own codex's I'd say yes. Personally I'd like to see a codex for each of the first founding chapters that also covers their successor chapters. Then again I'd also like to see Rules for representing the Ork Clans, The Craftworlds, the Traitor Legions, The Kabals of the DE, heck even different hive fleets of the nids. To me the more variety there is the more fun it will be.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-02-2011, 05:22
Sallies need a twin Multimelta Pred with Melta Sponsons.



*scratches chin*

Hmmm, I feel a model conversion coming on..... :evilgrin:

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2011, 10:16
but currently there isnt enough fluff to make a book,

Tell that to the Dark Eldar, Necrons, Black Templars and every other army that has ever existed, since, at some point, they didn't have much fluff at all. Then someone decided to create some and put it in a book.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-02-2011, 17:24
Tell that to the Dark Eldar, Necrons, Black Templars and every other army that has ever existed, since, at some point, they didn't have much fluff at all. Then someone decided to create some and put it in a book.

The stupid thing of it is Sallies and BT had their lists in the same book! The laughable part is Sallies have existed far longer as a official chapter than BT have, but BT got the book.

The Sallie list was very unique at the time. 0-1 assault units, Chappies with TH's, a unique psychic power.... all the makings of the start of a codex... and GW dropped the ball.

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2011, 17:43
Yeah. Of the two, they are the one I'd have rather seen with their own full on Codex, personally.

Vaktathi
11-02-2011, 18:37
The stupid thing of it is Sallies and BT had their lists in the same book! The laughable part is Sallies have existed far longer as a official chapter than BT have, but BT got the book.

The Sallie list was very unique at the time. 0-1 assault units, Chappies with TH's, a unique psychic power.... all the makings of the start of a codex... and GW dropped the ball.

They didn't need their own codex, neither did BT's. Psychic powers change every codex update, and a couple wargear swaps and unit restrictions can be handled well within the parameters of a single codex.

AlphariusOmegon20
12-02-2011, 15:44
They didn't need their own codex, neither did BT's. Psychic powers change every codex update, and a couple wargear swaps and unit restrictions can be handled well within the parameters of a single codex.

Unfortunately, Chaplains can't have TH's anymore., so no, not all the changes can be handled in one codex.

LoreDraconis
12-02-2011, 20:06
Somebody call the whaaaaambulance!

...we've got a BA envy emergency.

Vaktathi
12-02-2011, 20:13
Unfortunately, Chaplains can't have TH's anymore., so no, not all the changes can be handled in one codex.
It *could* have been done though, but regardless it's not something that Sallies *must* have to play a fluffy chaplain or a fluffy army by any means, and is an insignificant detail in the greater scheme of things, certainly not something that would demand its own book. The availability of wargear to any particular unit changes from edition to edition, a single CC weapon option like that is not something that should really matter all that much.

Brother Fenix
12-02-2011, 22:59
No predator, and no to a codex, and I play Dark Angels and Iron Hands. DA got a codex, and now unless you play double wing, they have so many disadvantages to the other chapters. Iron Hands got pretty much no mention in the last SM codex, they were the only first founding not even to get a special character.

Here's the thing, I like the suggestion of one Big SM codex and a page or two for each of the first founding chapters with different rules in it. Throw in the Stormraven, Baal Predator, Wolf Guard, etc, all the units. Just put it in the codex "BA only" for their items. Create one page for each chapter that is, "Chapter rules," include all the special rules for that chapter.

I liked the traits system from the previous codex, but it really didn't capture the spirit of each chapter since it was very generalized.

The thing is, I bought the BA codex, but I have no intention of playing BA. As long as people are doing that GW will continue to produce single chapter codex's. If they thought they could sell a Salamanders codex to people who don't play SM, they would have made a codex for them, but they apparently didn't think that, which is why instead they got a really cool model in the SM Codex.