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Cheeslord
03-02-2011, 11:50
Recently reading through the battlereports I came upon this one:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289220

Now all credit to AngelLust, he voluntarily chose not to count his Valks etc. as flyers for the sake of a closer game (and its a good battle report anyway).

but it got me thinking - fliers just seem very, very good. And then I looked up the rules again to see if I had overlooked a weakness and found that I had forgotten they also get a 4+ cover save always (as well as being only hittable on a 6, add 12" to shooting range and immune to assault).

Supposedly they have lower armour values than vehicles to balance this, but the Guard has access to AV12 flyers for not much more than a Dreadnought, and as they can face any direction after moving (and generally have long range weaponry) then can strut up and down their own side of the field with their backs away from the enemy.

Anyway, the point being it seems a balanced army would tend to suck against mass air. Only bringing large quantities of dedicated AA (apparently Marines and Guard get lots of free AA (pintle mounted) guns on their vehicles, but some other races have few or no AA choices) seems to have a chance of bringing them down. OK flyers dont score, but with 5 or so turns of being able to blast the enemy with impunity (and Lascannons!) there wont be much left to challenge any troops that you have (especially if they're safe in the fliers till the last turn!)

So... the question is - are the Flier rules broken? Do you houserule them? And, given the rumours in other threads, would you like to see them in regular 40k using the Apocalypse rules?

Mark.

jt.glass
03-02-2011, 12:24
Not coincidentally, Mark & I were discussing this last night. While flyers are undoubtedly very strong, I do not think they are would be as overwhelming as he does - we have yet to see one fielded (although we might or might not see some in our next Apoc game on Saturday...).

I think the rules as written are fine for things like T-hawks - at 900 points and with the puntive damage table that super-heavy fliers suffer from, they need the protection. OTOH, applying the rules to Vendettas becomes a little problematic. There is also an issue of Rock/Papaer/Scissors about it, since their is a massive difference between the amount of AA available to armies.

I'm sure the rumoured "summer of fliers" supplement and/or inclusion of fliers in 6th will have different rules, and fliers will be fine (or broken in a different way).

None of the choices really match my opinion (although the third and fourth choices are both part of it), so I didn't vote.

EDIT: Skimmers get 4+ cover saves too, if they move as far as a flier has to. Of course, if they do that, they can't shoot...


jt.

sidcom
03-02-2011, 12:24
well, I think it is more than balanced with their point price, asi Nightwing costs even more than a fully upgraded Landraider

Gingerwerewolf
03-02-2011, 12:35
Im guessing that this is one of the reasons that this summer is going to be "The Summer of Flyers"

They are exceedingly powerful in Apoc, but then again I find that most flyers when used in 40k as Fast Skimmers tend to drop like flies.

jt.glass
03-02-2011, 12:44
well, I think it is more than balanced with their point price, asi Nightwing costs even more than a fully upgraded Landraider
The problem is things like Valkyries and (especially) Vendettas that count as fliers in Apoc but are obviously not priced with that in mind!


jt.

Satan
03-02-2011, 13:03
They should be introduced in 40k proper (as with the DE and IG books) so army lists would have to feature AA guns and equipment. Makes for a more dynamic game.

Of course this also means that there should be AA options available.

Inquisitor Kallus
03-02-2011, 13:14
They arent exceedingly powerful, i've been using them off and on since imperial armour 1 came out if im playing a themed game and its ok with my opponent. They are reasonably/over points costed most of the time, and dont usually sport the most amazing armaments compared to dedicated heavy weapons troops etc. Their key feature is they get where you need them to be, fast! They are also fairly fragile comparitively and make for some awesome games, which is why I also collect Aeronautica Imperialis. I can't wait for the Summer of fliers, although personally I think they should be used with a little restraint.

Hendarion
03-02-2011, 13:49
well, I think it is more than balanced with their point price, asi Nightwing costs even more than a fully upgraded Landraider
That's how I see it too. Not to mention they are easily shot down by low grade weapons. Some firewarriors already can get it down easily.

Dead7
03-02-2011, 16:15
i think flyers just dont have a place in standard 40k games, an aircraft would not be involved in such a small battle, and if it were it would just fly past and drop a bomb, not fly around like what we have.

AlphariusOmegon20
03-02-2011, 16:17
i think flyers just dont have a place in standard 40k games, an aircraft would not be involved in such a small battle, and if it were it would just fly past and drop a bomb, not fly around like what we have.

Tell that to Chopper pilots in the US Army. They do it all the time.

Sgt John Keel
03-02-2011, 16:38
The problem is things like Valkyries and (especially) Vendettas that count as fliers in Apoc but are obviously not priced with that in mind!


jt.

I would insist that anyone using Valkyries (or Vultures) as fliers would use the rules from Imperial Armour: Apocalypse.

Shamana
03-02-2011, 16:49
No Vendettas and 11/11/10 armor for valkyries ;) ?

Dead7
03-02-2011, 16:59
Tell that to Chopper pilots in the US Army. They do it all the time.

there is a large difference between choppers and jets. things like valks dont seem too bad (although imo they should be like choppers and have 10 all sides or open topped) but the new de stuff should not be in a 40k size fight.

Hendarion
03-02-2011, 17:22
Realism has nothing to do with 40k. Just coolness. Tanks are cool in 40k, but way too slow and way too small. Flyers aren't any different. They are cool and often part of strategie-games, even at computer-games. Realism < Coolness.

Vaktathi
03-02-2011, 19:20
The costs that FW has assigned fliers generally balances very well. The only problems are when GW has taken one (namely the Valk/Vendetta), uparmored it, and reduced the cost appropriate to that of a Fast Skimmer, then turn around and say "for Apoc Games use it as a Flyer".

Valk's were nearly 200pts or more after kit and only AV11 when they had Flyer rules, and the Vendetta didn't exist. Vendetta Flyers for less than the cost of a Leman Russ is a wee bit silly, but is an exception rather than the rule.

Jackmojo
03-02-2011, 21:02
I'm hoping we get a general re-write of the flier rules so that they're not nearly so aggravating for folks to engage with things other then fliers of their own.

Personally I'd drop the 'only hit on sixes rule' (since it penalizes better shooters worse then bad ones) and replace it with a 3+ or even 2+ cover save rule negated be anything which would negate the fast skimmer save. Then they could have higher armor values without being as hard to kill as they are now.

Jack

Hendarion
03-02-2011, 21:08
They won't get any AV-increase. So I'd really prefer to stick to the current protections instead.

Malorian
03-02-2011, 21:20
Personally I'd drop the 'only hit on sixes rule' (since it penalizes better shooters worse then bad ones) and replace it with a 3+ or even 2+ cover save rule negated be anything which would negate the fast skimmer save. Then they could have higher armor values without being as hard to kill as they are now.

Jack

My lootas disagree...

Col. Dash
03-02-2011, 22:10
Most of the rules work well in standard games of 40k. I think there needs to be more AA options for armies like most people on here have mentioned. It is kind of silly that only the Imperials have thought about AA on their vehicles aside from dedicated AA vehicles which at least 5 armies off hand have.(Tau, eldar, Ork, IG, Marines). Adding more AA would negate this I think and would I think balance armies better. You want a whole jump pack army? Ok, what happens versus a full Air Cav army, guess you should have brought that whirlwind with the AA missiles and pintle mounts. Oh you have all jump packs, I am not going into hover mode so I can disembark, are you kidding? Of course this also means I am not going to be able to score either since flying over the objective isnt the same as being on the objective.

Saying flyers dont have a place in a standard game of 40k because they wouldnt show up for such a small skirmish is a strikingly similar arguement as that against special characters lol. In the current GW mindset, yes they would and do show up for every little battle. Yriel and Eldrad are especially busy micromanaging the universe.

Jackmojo
03-02-2011, 22:53
They won't get any AV-increase. So I'd really prefer to stick to the current protections instead.

They already have though, with AV 12 Vendettas and Valkyries (and likely Storm Raven's to follow) if not by house consensus then via datasheets for Apocalypse.


My lootas disagree...

Funny that, one might even suspect I was thinking specifically of that unit when I was posting earlier, but that would only lead to paranoia...

Jack

-Loki-
04-02-2011, 05:54
My biggest annoyance with the apocalypse flyer rules is not letting them get into assault. I know it's there to stop something like someone trying to teleport TH/SS Terminators on top of a Thunderhawk, but it practically halves the effectiveness of the Harridan.

Reflex
04-02-2011, 06:52
I have 3 Pylons so meh...

Angelust
04-02-2011, 08:02
I would insist that anyone using Valkyries (or Vultures) as fliers would use the rules from Imperial Armour: Apocalypse.

Problem with that is that the newer, more 5th edition friendly IAA:2 lists Vultures as fliers and gives them the upgraded, AV12 hull, Punisher options, and the reduced cost found in the IA1 update pdf.

Also, there are at least a couple formations that allow your regular Valkyrie/Vendettas to become fliers at very minimal cost. The Elysian formation in IA:A1 actually seems to make your infantry fliers, which is extremely ridiculous. (Says everyone in the platoon is a flier...um...the 2+ infantry = part of the platoon...)

Personally, I think any Apoc game needs to be policed by the players to make an even match. The Imperial vs. Daemon game wasn't evenly matched because my friend hadn't played in a year, we just kind of picked a day and a point cost, and he ended up bringing Daemons instead of his Iron Warriors list which I didn't expect.

In regular 40k I would love to see actual flier rules instead of fast skimmers, but I also realize that there would need to be a significant update or rules alteration to allow many 40k armies to deal with them. i.e. a dedicated supplemental rule book which allowed gave Daemons with wings a strategem that made it feasible to assault voidravens, etc. It would be great to see some rules to help the Storm Raven be a little more useful for a BA army as well.

Kurisu313
04-02-2011, 08:20
I have 3 Pylons so meh...

So, you don't have to construct additional pylons?

...Sorry.

OT, I agree with Vaktathi that the main problem is the huge points drop and armour upgrade the fliers are getting as fast vehicles does not translate into just 'letting them be fliers' in apoc. You should probably use FW rules and points to be fair.

Reflex
04-02-2011, 08:42
yea.. you should be sorry for that.. :P

I know some IG players who tried to say their valks and vendettas were flyers using the codex rules. these same players tried to get away with the codex version of the hydra being aa. no...


you have to be your own police when it comes to apoc. yes, you can still cheat in a game that is as open as apoc.

flyers are hard, but I dont have problems because necrons have such a fantastic turret unit.

Angelust
04-02-2011, 08:46
Again, the problem is that FW has already released updates to their previous IA books through pdf releases on their website that bring identical stats and point costs to IG valkyries, only with the added * to treat Valkyries/Vultures as fliers in Apoc games. The Vulture has also been updated to AV12, been made cheaper, and has been given more weapon options.

It's totally fine to dismiss the update and use the 4th edition rules, but then, you might as well assign your own personal point values to them because FW's official rules are already the same as the IG codex rules, only with added flier status in Apoc.

Angelust
04-02-2011, 08:51
Reflex - They are fliers with hover mode in Apoc games.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA1update28AUG.pdf - Specific rules for Valkyrie and Vulture. (Page 16)



http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m530559a_LA_Valkyrie.pdf - Also, general "soft" rules by GW concerning Valkyries/Vendettas in Apoc as counting as fliers. (Page 2)

FW and GW have both approved of them being used as fliers in Apoc with no point adjustments.

However, I'd just like to repeat that Apoc games are meant to be balanced between players. Nothing is stopping someone from taking 10 Callidus Assassins in a formation with 10 Defense Lasers and dozens of Elysian Drop Troops with melta guns...nothing except the players that is.

Edit: You'll also notice on page 11 of the IA1Update28Aug.pdf that they also list the Hydra as having the exact same stats as its IG equivalent (points cost included) while having the additional rule of AA mount. So yes, Hydras can have AA mount in Apoc games, assuming you allow FW rules.

Cheeslord
04-02-2011, 08:56
The costs that FW has assigned fliers generally balances very well. The only problems are when GW has taken one (namely the Valk/Vendetta), uparmored it, and reduced the cost appropriate to that of a Fast Skimmer, then turn around and say "for Apoc Games use it as a Flyer".

Valk's were nearly 200pts or more after kit and only AV11 when they had Flyer rules, and the Vendetta didn't exist. Vendetta Flyers for less than the cost of a Leman Russ is a wee bit silly, but is an exception rather than the rule.

QFT
I think this sums it up pretty well. Most flyers (e. g. Imperial Armour ones where they havent copied the Broken across from GW) arent so bad, but the cheap (priced to be good for their cost if treated as skimmers), well armoured, well armed Guard flyers just kill face all over the place.

Mark.

Reflex
04-02-2011, 09:29
holy crud!

thats terribad (and not the album)!

these guys didnt have these documents, nor did they quote them. I better not let them get out... :shifty:

thats a bit rank though. Apoc is not suppose to be fair, but its not suppose to be spastiaclly imba either. there is a line.

Angelust
04-02-2011, 09:47
Ref - Yeah, the V/V/V (Valk/Vend/Vult) are all the new breed of flyers, while the Thunderbolt and Lightning are left in yesteryear. I personally think AA hydras are a good thing, since it's one of the only ground options that really put a scare on Flier faces.

It's just too bad that GW/FW are releasing more and more flier models without subsequent AA models for armies across the board.

Perhaps an Apoc asset called "Apocalyptic Storm" or some such. Roll a d6 at the beginning of each turn. On a 1-4, fliers count as moving in dangerous terrain. On a 5-6, fliers may move normally.

Cheeslord
04-02-2011, 10:52
We are thinking of rewriting the "Long range Ack Ack" strategic asset to inflicting a S8 hit on an enemy flyer every turn (still not great as they'll save half of them with their cover saves and it will not put much of a dent in Mass Air).

An alternative houserule I might suggest in future is that any model that normally counts as a skimmer but counts as a flier in Apocalypse at no extra cost, actually counts as a skimmer and we all stick pins in some sort of effigy of GW.

Bonzai
04-02-2011, 14:58
I think that they are fine, and add an extra dimension to the game. However where FW and GW have fallen short is providing ample AA for all races.

Right now, only the Imperial Guard are where they should be. They have lots of options, and some are decently priced. Then you look at Daemons of Chaos, and they are absolutely boned by them.

I think a 3rd apoc book should be worked on. Updating all armies, new formations, etc.. but special attention made to balancing out AA options for all armies.

Oh... and I would add a rule that flyers hit other flyers with their normal BS skill (dog fighting).

Cheeslord
04-02-2011, 15:19
Oh... and I would add a rule that flyers hit other flyers with their normal BS skill (dog fighting).

Most "fighter" style flyers now have AA mount as standard for their weapons to allow this (there was one notable exception, cant remember the name but is was described as an air-air fighter and DIDNT have AA mount, then it got reprinted in a later book exactly the same but with AA mount included. Whoever can tell me which this model was gets a Bonus Point). Flyers that are more dedicated air-ground attackers (bombers or =helicopter gunships) probably shouldnt have AA mount weapons.

Mark.

I also think flyers without hover mode should have to move in a single straight line, and end up facing the direction they moved.

Col. Dash
04-02-2011, 15:53
Chees, they may not have to move in a straight line, but they do have to be min 36" from where they started in straight line distance which hampers them a little.

AlphariusOmegon20
04-02-2011, 16:40
there is a large difference between choppers and jets. things like valks dont seem too bad (although imo they should be like choppers and have 10 all sides or open topped) but the new de stuff should not be in a 40k size fight.

Not really. Jets, starting with Vietnam, now loiter high in a battle area to lend instant support if need be.

A10 Thunderbolts are well known to do it.

jt.glass
04-02-2011, 17:21
(there was one notable exception, cant remember the name but is was described as an air-air fighter and DIDNT have AA mount, then it got reprinted in a later book exactly the same but with AA mount included. Whoever can tell me which this model was gets a Bonus Point).IIRC, it was the Lightning. I can't check beacuse someone has my books ATM! :p


An alternative houserule I might suggest in future is that any model that normally counts as a skimmer but counts as a flier in Apocalypse at no extra cost, actually counts as a skimmer and we all stick pins in some sort of effigy of GW.I'd prefer we charge a points surcharge for the upgrade (somewhere between 20 & 50%). I have enough trouble getting all the models assembled for Apoc, without having to make effigies as well. :D


jt.

Bigbot
04-02-2011, 17:28
Fliers, no they're not over powered.

Thunderhawk is, it can be a total game winner

jt.glass
04-02-2011, 17:37
Fliers, no they're not over powered.

Thunderhawk is, it can be a total game winnerThunderhawk? Seriously?

Don't get me wrong, I'll buy a 'hawk or two for my marines the moment it comes out in plastic*, but for pure power I'd much rather have half-a-dozen Vendettas.


jt.

(*No, I don't know anything, but it is bound to one day, isn't it?)

Cheeslord
05-02-2011, 00:34
IIRC, it was the Lightning. I can't check beacuse someone has my books ATM! :p




jt.

Congratulations, sir ... you win a Bonus Point (though not in the Apocalypse game tomorrow!)



Mark.

P. S. Since you're sitting in the lounge right now this is a very inefficient way to communicate.

Vaktathi
05-02-2011, 01:35
yea.. you should be sorry for that.. :P

I know some IG players who tried to say their valks and vendettas were flyers using the codex rules. these same players tried to get away with the codex version of the hydra being aa. no...to be fair, any time you'd be playing with Flyer rules you'd use the AA Hydras. FW updated them, being identical in all ways to the codex one, just with the AA rule. It'd be...very silly to not allow a Hydra Flak Tank to be an AA unit...considering the only reason the codex doesn't have it is that they didn't want to put Apoc rules in a codex, and the fact that it was created as an AA unit (IIRC the first one to have the AA rule) and is specifically designed to be an AA unit to counter Flyers.

Though yeah, Valks and Vendettas should not be Flyers out of the codex (or really at their current Codex points)

TheLaughingGod
05-02-2011, 01:42
Frankly, I'm not sure I see how people are using IG codex Valks and Vendettas in Apoc as Flyers. There are no rules for them as such. There ARE rules for Flyer Valks in Imperial Armour: Apocalypse.

The 12/12/10 Fast Skimmers are supposed to be up armoured Valks that do NOT have the speed or manueverable of a true Flyer.

Thus, I would never allow someone to use them as a Flyer. (They can however, use the IA:A rules, which are much more reasonable)

GirathonB
05-02-2011, 02:16
Frankly, I'm not sure I see how people are using IG codex Valks and Vendettas in Apoc as Flyers. There are no rules for them as such. There ARE rules for Flyer Valks in Imperial Armour: Apocalypse.

The 12/12/10 Fast Skimmers are supposed to be up armoured Valks that do NOT have the speed or manueverable of a true Flyer.

Thus, I would never allow someone to use them as a Flyer. (They can however, use the IA:A rules, which are much more reasonable)

Imperial Armour Volume 1 update, page 254 http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA1update28AUG.pdf

Angelust
05-02-2011, 03:22
Please refer to my previous links laughing god. They are to be treated as fliers by both Gw and fw.

jt.glass
05-02-2011, 09:07
Imperial Armour Volume 1 update, page 254 http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA1update28AUG.pdfNot to mention every Valkyrie related data sheet in WD, and other FW publications...


jt.

Aesaar
05-02-2011, 12:35
Separate types of flyers: Fast Movers, and Gunships.

A Fast Mover would use a variant of the old FW flyer rules: It enters the table on the start of the enemy shooting phase, during which the enemy can target it. It's hit normally, 2+ dodge save, 2+ obscured save. AA mounts reduce dodge to 4+ and nullify obscured. During the owning player turn, draw a straight 36" line between the flyers position and the table egde (obviously, the line has to point at the flyer).

Non-heavy/assault 1 weapons front mount weapons will cause d* hits to any unit within 6" of this line (one shot weapons excluded). Heavy/Assault 1 and ordnance weapons can target any one unit within 6" of the line. Missiles can target anything within 9" of the line. Turreted weapons fire normally.

* = however many shots that weapon would fire normally.

Strafing runs FTW. Adds another dimension to the game, trying to maneuver your enemy's forces into a position vulnerable to a devastating strafing run. A little complex, but works pretty well once you're familiar with it.

Makes Marauder Destroyers and Thunderbolts scary as hell, though.

Gunships would be similar to the current rules, but with a max move of 48", hit normally, a 3+ dodge save, and the skimmer 4+ obscured save when they move the required distance. AA guns reduce dodge to 6+ and ignore the skimmer obscured save. No assaulting if the gunship moved more than 24" last turn, and no assaulting in general unless assaulters have jump or jet packs.

I separate gunships and typical skimmers because they operate differently. A gunship should be darting around the battlefield providing support where it's needed. A skimmer will operate more slowly because of the obstacles at ground level. Eldar and DE fast skimmers should probably be allowed to count as gunships once or twice per game, though.

I don't think dogfights can be decently done with the 40k ruleset. I'd suggest an Aeronautica Imperialis tie-in turn if you have the time.