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Darth ryanus
04-02-2011, 07:56
Why do GW always treat Slaanesh like the poor brother of the other 3. In the Deamon books for both games we get the weakest basic troop and half as many characters as everyone else,we are the only one of the big 4 with no special greater deamon. In the warriors of chaos book again we have less charaters than everyone else. Then we have the chaos marine codex we have by far the least popular cult troops everyone else pays 4-5 points for fearless,a stat increase and a usr, we get to pay 5 points for fearless and +1I and the option to pay another 5 points for a better gun. Even forgeworld have forgotten us with just 1 lackluster Greater Deamon.

Anyone know why this is i mean why have 4 gods if 1 of them is so weak they cant ever compete.

Dvora
04-02-2011, 08:03
I suppose one could make the argument that, as a newer god, he/she/it isn't as strong as the other gods. But that's a cop out. Honestly, I suppose finding a buff for slannesh other then the extra I is kind of difficult.

Corrupted
04-02-2011, 08:06
Maybe Acute Senses USR ? And Sonic blasters for free for Noise Marines ? :)
Iam playing slaanesh and Iam happy, I like playing for outsiders...

theJ
04-02-2011, 08:09
not to nitpick here, but isn't Slaanesh kinda supposed to be the weakest?

Khorne is the strongest because the galaxy is filled to the brim with eternal slaughter. Nurgle is the second strongest because said slaughter brings nigh endless levels of despair. Tzeench is third, as ever so many desire the above to change, and even in the face of despair, some hope yet remains. Slaanesh is last, because in the face of eternal war, there is only so much time one can spare for excesses.

As for characters.... why not just make up your own? Write up some nifty fluff + rules, give it a reasonable points cost, and I'm sure you local game store won't mind if you use it :)

Xandros
04-02-2011, 08:11
Why do so many chaos players on warseer have a victim complex?

Dvora
04-02-2011, 08:12
..Because we love the waahmbulance?

MajorWesJanson
04-02-2011, 08:20
Good God-Emperor man! Slaanesh is the Chaos god of Love, and you want to feed it directly? Are you mad! The Eldar thought this way, and look what happened to them!

Dvora
04-02-2011, 08:25
*Gets this horrible image of slaanesh in a high chair and a bib on* So..s..should I say here comes the craft world to get he/she to open its mouth?

Mr. Ultra
04-02-2011, 08:45
Why do so many chaos players on warseer have a victim complex?

Try to read the CSM codex.

orz192
04-02-2011, 09:04
How about poison weapons?

Cheeslord
04-02-2011, 09:06
I don't think GW want to push Slaanesh too hard from a marketing point of view. They sell a lot of stuff to 12 year old kids and don't want to be seen as pushing soft porn / ideas about sex at children. It wouldnt surprise me if they replace Slaanesh / change it beyond recognition in the long run.

Mark.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
04-02-2011, 10:40
Cheeselord has got it there I think. Just looking at the current models, they are veering away from the whole sexual aspect to be more monstrous, and fill the more creepy and generally weird niche. They still have quite a lot of fluff retconning to do before they are acceptable though.

In game terms, this translates to the fact that they are they weakest units in all the books, and really do need some attention to try and bring them in line with the other gods. Obviously this won't happen until they are nice and acceptable and non offensive from both fluff and model points of view. Because of course we can let children immerse themselves in wanton slaughter as much as they like, but soon as they dreaded S word is even mentioned then people get on the GW are evil bandwagon.

Chem-Dog
04-02-2011, 11:27
Why do GW always treat Slaanesh like the poor brother of the other 3.

In simple terms, they don't know what to do with him/her. Same as most of us if presented with a hermaphrodite, I suspect. ;)
Problem is Slaanesh's (original) main realm of interest is a little beyond the acceptable for GW's current target audience. Additionally the main sphere of influence within the game has always been Ld, which is almost a redundant stat in current 40k.


In the Deamon books for both games we get the weakest basic troop and half as many characters as everyone else,we are the only one of the big 4 with no special greater deamon.

I'm not qualified to comment on WHFB bit for 40k I was a little dissapointed that N'Kari didn't show up.
Daemonettes aren't that bad, they might not be as punchy as 'Letters but you can get more for your money and they're fleet.


Then we have the chaos marine codex we have by far the least popular cult troops

Says you!


everyone else pays 4-5 points for fearless,a stat increase and a usr, we get to pay 5 points for fearless and +1I Point for point comparisons are pointless (pun intended :D) but you're right, they do come off a little worse by comparison.


and the option to pay another 5 points for a better gun.

This does stink, I get the Impression that this is inspired by the rather rubbish box (giving you the option) when everyone complains that the box is useless as you really want as many Sonic Blasters as possible as well as a Champ with a Doom Siren and a Guy carrying a Blastmaster.


Even forgeworld have forgotten us with just 1 lackluster Greater Deamon.

So Far (and in your opinion). I'll point out that Tzeench has as little coverage in FW's catalogue. Actually, marginally less. The Slaanesh camp has both an EC's Dread and a Noise Marine Dread.


Anyone know why this is i mean why have 4 gods if 1 of them is so weak they cant ever compete.

As I touched on above, Slaanesh hasn't really progressed from it's first outing when 40K (and WHFB) was quite a bit more adult. The god has been made marginally more PG (omg teh Prinz of Pr0n!!11!!!) but not expanded upon at all. This means nothing new has been generated for them and their previous existing "Favoured" are simply shoe-horned into what's seen as fitting by whichever writer at the time, simply becoming next edition versions of their previous encarnations.

How to change this?
A sensitive Games developed to put some thought into how to "Do" Slaanesh.

Lord Damocles
04-02-2011, 11:32
Why do so many chaos players on warseer have a victim complex?
Everybody knows that it's a communist zionist CIA religious fundamentalist conspiracy orchestrated by lizard people from outer space who deliberately target Chaos players by nerfing their rules, not giving them any new models ever, stamping on their pet dog, and breaking the leds in their pencils.

Unlike those Necron players who get all the love and support :mad:

Cheeslord
04-02-2011, 11:51
When I started collecting Daemons I had an ambition to make a Slaanesh/Tzeentch army. Given up on that now. My other army is Necrons and I want something that has a chance (I won't go as far as to take the stupid, stupid unique heralds though ... not yet anyway ...)

Mark.

Born Again
04-02-2011, 11:58
Hmm. Funny, this... not too long ago there was a thread asking the exact same question in regards to Nurgle. Nurgle: the only Chaos power that still has it's main daemonic infantry in metal.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
04-02-2011, 12:07
Yeah but at least Nurgle is still competitive in game terms. And Plaguebearers aren't exactly hard to convert. Though it does seem weird that Nurgle doesn't have a single unit in Plastic, especially with the popularity of Plague Marines and Bearers. No one at GW fancied sculpting pus and guts.

Crazy Ivan
04-02-2011, 12:17
Because Khorne bashed his/her head in! And then took the skull for his Skull Throne!! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! BLLOOOODDDD!!!!


Ahem.

I was going to comment on the "this has been done for Nurgle too"-thing, but as that already has been said above: it seems to me that Slaanesh is the most difficult from a marketing point of view, because people don't want that for their kiddies. However, I am under the impression that all Chaos marks/daemons/gods, except for Khorne, are getting the short end of the stick. Khorne is easy, 'cause he's all about violence which is the core of the game in any case. The others (yes, Tzeentch too) all have "weird" daemons, traits, and cult troops that make them difficult to market, to (re)design (new) units for, and to write creditable background for.

Gingerwerewolf
04-02-2011, 12:22
I don't think GW want to push Slaanesh too hard from a marketing point of view. They sell a lot of stuff to 12 year old kids and don't want to be seen as pushing soft porn / ideas about sex at children. It wouldnt surprise me if they replace Slaanesh / change it beyond recognition in the long run.

Mark.

The above is probably a large part of the reason, and I personally see that Slaanesh is loved, at least as much as the Others. They've got good rules, good background (more than Mr Angry, Mr Quixotic and Mr Nosepicker)

Its a case of Selective Viewing Im afraid.

Hellebore
04-02-2011, 12:25
Why no love for Slaanesh?

Slannesh gets plenty as it is, thankyou very much.

The whole codex will be redone in 5th ed style. Half the background section will be a list of exploits by the main special characters and the book will have tonnes of new pointless units as well as pointlessly retconned background. Maybe we'll discover that chaos marines don't use the warp to travel EITHER, instead riding obliterators on superstring galactic traintracks powered by the tears of ether bugs. Cuz it's new yo.

Basically, everything in the current codex will be changed, bloated and fluffed out. So I don't think you need to worry about Slannesh not getting enough attention. If however you wanted QUALITY attention, well you'll probably have to invent a time machine and go back before the suck set in.

Hellebore

Pawn of Decay
04-02-2011, 12:30
THe issue is, as people have pointed out, they are steering away from the more sexual orientation of Slaanesh. It has now simply become the Chaos God of excess. Whilst it is a fairly cool idea... how do you show talents of the excess in gaming turns? Thats the problem the gamedesigners seem to be having.

Although Slaanesh wil eventually be the most powerful Chaos God. Because everything that is done in the 40k realm is excessive. War being the most obvious. :D

Tymell
04-02-2011, 12:37
Why do so many chaos players on warseer have a victim complex?

This (and before anyone jumps me, I'm a Chaos player too).

Which "[Chaos god] doesn't get enough love from GW" thread will be next do we think? (maybe Malal just to be different? :p)


THe issue is, as people have pointed out, they are steering away from the more sexual orientation of Slaanesh. It has now simply become the Chaos God of excess. Whilst it is a fairly cool idea... how do you show talents of the excess in gaming turns? Thats the problem the gamedesigners seem to be having.

To be fair, how do you show the sexual side in gaming turns? :p

I like the idea of the focus expanding (as it was originally) to more than just "God of sex". It gives them more scope.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
04-02-2011, 12:39
At least it makes a change from the constant "Marines have too many codicies" threads......

Mr. Ultra
04-02-2011, 12:57
The whole codex will be redone in 5th ed style. Half the background section will be a list of exploits by the main special characters and the book will have tonnes of new pointless units as well as pointlessly retconned background. Maybe we'll discover that chaos marines don't use the warp to travel EITHER, instead riding obliterators on superstring galactic traintracks powered by the tears of ether bugs. Cuz it's new yo.

I hope Gods heard you! :D:evilgrin::D

Born Again
04-02-2011, 14:52
To be fair, how do you show the sexual side in gaming turns? :p

Took the words right out of my mouth :D

AlphariusOmegon20
04-02-2011, 15:01
To say that Slaanesh's domain is too explicit for the younger crowd is a cop out.

Anyone here play 2E Forgotten Realms D&D? Remember Loviatar, goddess of Pain and Agony??

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Loviatar

D&D got far more risque with what they put in modules about the activities of the priests of Loviatar and they suffered no backlash. I don't see why GW would either, provided they walk that line similar to what TSR did with Loviatar.

Castigator
04-02-2011, 15:45
D&D got far more risque with what they put in modules about the activities of the priests of Loviatar and they suffered no backlash. I don't see why GW would either, provided they walk that line similar to what TSR did with Loviatar.

D&D too has become far more coy in what they put on illustrations and covers.

There is a difference to what you write in prose, and to what you display in pictures and miniatures. The latter is far easier to drag in front of a camera for a quick-shock headline by some concerned parent. Reading to page 158 of the latest rulebook in their kids pile of dog-eared fantasy-stuff is another matter entirely.

AlphariusOmegon20
04-02-2011, 15:57
D&D too has become far more coy in what they put on illustrations and covers.

There is a difference to what you write in prose, and to what you display in pictures and miniatures. The latter is far easier to drag in front of a camera for a quick-shock headline by some concerned parent. Reading to page 158 of the latest rulebook in their kids pile of dog-eared fantasy-stuff is another matter entirely.

Oh please.

I don't remember even a blip on the radar of the mainstream media when GW released the prior daemonettes, the ones they supposedly got "in trouble" over. So much for that theory. If it were that bad, we would have seen some cause and effect by now.

Have you even seen some of the Reaper minis? They go far beyond the Daemonettes as risque sculpts and I've seen 12-14 year old kids buying and painting them. Looked at a TV lately? I can name 5 shows right now that 12 -14 year olds commonly watch that go way far beyond risque than anything GW's ever done. Don't even get me started on movies. Yet I see little in the way of backlash against these things.

12 -14 year olds are neither stupid nor naive anymore. So let's not kid ourselves.

Johnnyfrej
04-02-2011, 16:12
The Current Chaos Marine Codex is a bad example, as it suffers from horribly bad internal balance. If all the cult marines were 20 points exact per model (which isn't really underpriced, since they are all over-priced) with Noise Marines starting with a Sonic Blaster/Bolt Pistol and CCW they would be a much more viable option.

As for Fantasy goes, I'm not much a fan of the WoC as they too suffer from poor internal balance (I blame Phil eternally for ruining that book).

AlphariusOmegon20
04-02-2011, 16:26
The Current Chaos Marine Codex is a bad example, as it suffers from horribly bad internal balance. If all the cult marines were 20 points exact per model (which isn't really underpriced, since they are all over-priced) with Noise Marines starting with a Sonic Blaster/Bolt Pistol and CCW they would be a much more viable option.

As for Fantasy goes, I'm not much a fan of the WoC as they too suffer from poor internal balance (I blame Phil eternally for ruining that book).

I disagree with you on the internal balance of WoC, but that's an issue for a different thread in a different section of the forum.

Sythica
04-02-2011, 16:36
It's easy to say that GW doesn't want to make models of naked ladies, but Slaanesh has always had more to offer than just sex. I fell in love with Slaanesh back in second edition, when the fluff indicated that the Noise Marines needed to paint their armour it crazy loud colours because they were so tripped out they couldn't see straight. They had guns that were fricking guitars because they liked to rock out!

Then GW took the silly factor away, pink and black became the paint scheme, and suddenly we were left with S&M marines.

Unfortunately, in the current social clime, GW could probably get away with adding MORE sex to Slaanesh than returning the insane pleasure drug use to the fluff. Fine. Then at least give us back our hair metal marines.

massey
04-02-2011, 16:44
Well, Slaanesh has a few problems. For one, all the cool stuff that Slaanesh had was PG-13 or better. And yes, toning it down so kids can play has reduced the amount of... let's say Slaanesh-specific activities that can be shown. Slaanesh was the god of sex, drugs, and rock and roll, and that's much more appropriate for a group of 15-17 year olds than it is 10-12 year olds.

Plus, we're no longer in the 80s, so a group of guys playing demon-possessed guitars and blowing up their enemies with The Power of Rock! doesn't really fit current musical trends.

Overall, the problem is that it's easy to think of stuff for Khorne. Kill kill kill! Lots of blood. Make them good in hand to hand and you're done. Nurgle? They're tough, Make them hard to kill and you're good. Slaanesh? Tzeentch? Umm... ? We've already got "kills stuff" and "hard to kill", in a wargame you've got the easy stuff covered. Anything else is going to require more thinking during play, which most people are going to see as underpowered. "What? I have to think? Inconceivable!"

Lord Inquisitor
04-02-2011, 17:05
Why do GW always treat Slaanesh like the poor brother of the other 3. In the Deamon books for both games we get the weakest basic troop and half as many characters as everyone else,we are the only one of the big 4 with no special greater deamon. In the warriors of chaos book again we have less charaters than everyone else. Then we have the chaos marine codex we have by far the least popular cult troops everyone else pays 4-5 points for fearless,a stat increase and a usr, we get to pay 5 points for fearless and +1I and the option to pay another 5 points for a better gun. Even forgeworld have forgotten us with just 1 lackluster Greater Deamon.

Anyone know why this is i mean why have 4 gods if 1 of them is so weak they cant ever compete.
Well, Noise Marines trail behind Plague Marines and Bezekers but they're still competitive. Not the best choice, a little overcosted, but not terrible either.

Bear in mind that Slaanesh has a long tradition of having one item the verges on the most broken thing in the game.

Old CSM - the Siren minor psychic power. A minor power that people would pay 60+ points just to get.
New CSM - Lash. Codex: CSM has dropped behind the codex creep curve so people don't whine about it so much, but lets not forget this was the single most powerful thing in the game when it came out, and singlehandedly forced most armies to load up on transports and psychic defences.
WFB Daemons - Masque (most broken 90 points in Warhammer), Siren Song. Cheese on a stick.
Warriors - maybe not now, but in 7th everyone ran nothing but Slaanesh-marked troops, because it gave you all the advantages of ItP and none of the disadvantages.

Don't get me wrong, I have noticed the lack of love Slaanesh gets too, but Slaanesh has a long history of the designers saying "let's give Slaanesh a power that affects enemy movements, that won't be so powerful because it doesn't kill stuff".

It hasn't been too bad in model releases recently either. Yes, Daemons were conspicuously lacking in a Slaanesh special character greater daemons, which is distinctly odd because one of the only named Greater Daemons that has long existed in the background was N'Kari, who would have been an obvious choice. Forgeworld seem to be spurning Slaanesh and Tzeentch, we have multiple daemon engines and troop types for Nurgle and Khorne but nothing for the other two beyond the giant GDs. But on the other hand, we got TWO new plastic kits (daemonettes and seekers) plus new fiends and masque. They may not be the most loved kits ever but Slaanesh actually got more Daemon releases than any other god. Khorne got two new plastic kits, Tzeentch got a plastic kit and a couple of characters. Nurgle got... new beasts? So in terms of mainline releases Slaanesh has done very well.


I don't think GW want to push Slaanesh too hard from a marketing point of view. They sell a lot of stuff to 12 year old kids and don't want to be seen as pushing soft porn / ideas about sex at children. It wouldnt surprise me if they replace Slaanesh / change it beyond recognition in the long run.
Slaanesh is about desire and excess. Always was. There's a lot of ways that they can get this across without resorting to boobies. Prince Sigvald I think is a very cool Slaanesh character. "We don't want boobies" firstly seems to be fairly moronic when the majority of their player base are quite enamoured with boobies, but even accepting that there's so much that can be done with Slaanesh and pushing them aside due to not thinking a little further seems lazy.


Slannesh gets plenty as it is, thankyou very much.

The whole codex will be redone in 5th ed style. Half the background section will be a list of exploits by the main special characters and the book will have tonnes of new pointless units as well as pointlessly retconned background. Maybe we'll discover that chaos marines don't use the warp to travel EITHER, instead riding obliterators on superstring galactic traintracks powered by the tears of ether bugs. Cuz it's new yo.

Basically, everything in the current codex will be changed, bloated and fluffed out. So I don't think you need to worry about Slannesh not getting enough attention. If however you wanted QUALITY attention, well you'll probably have to invent a time machine and go back before the suck set in.
Yes, I fear this day too. :( I really hope you're wrong, but I don't think you are.

You're so right about not using the Warp. Urgh. Spend 20 years coming up with a degree of verisimilitude to interstellar travel and then grind it into the dirt.

Zweischneid
04-02-2011, 17:05
Overall, the problem is that it's easy to think of stuff for Khorne. Kill kill kill! Lots of blood. Make them good in hand to hand and you're done. Nurgle? They're tough, Make them hard to kill and you're good. Slaanesh? Tzeentch? Umm... ? We've already got "kills stuff" and "hard to kill", in a wargame you've got the easy stuff covered. Anything else is going to require more thinking during play, which most people are going to see as underpowered. "What? I have to think? Inconceivable!"

Overall great analysis there.

But it be actually fairly easy to cover if GW moves beyond Disease=Tougher. Nurgle being harder to kill never made sense IMO and should be replaced by effects of infectious and/or poisonous nature. Poison weapons, area effects that reduce strenght, initiative, number of attacks, things like that. The FnP-schtick in Chaos could well go to Noise Marines who are more likely to be dead (or adapted) to physical sensations. Add to that "overwhelm-the-senses" special effects (pinning stuff, reducing weapon range through vision-impairments, etc.. or perhaps even "stupidity" through sexual distraction) as part of their weaponry, and your done. Tzeentch gets the Wiz-kid stuff obviously.

TheMav80
04-02-2011, 17:36
Slaanesh gives Slaanesh all the love s/he could ever need. :shifty:

Johnnyfrej
04-02-2011, 19:26
There is some hope. Take a look at the new Dark Eldar codex, there is a lot of 'questionably' child-friendly material.

TheMav80
04-02-2011, 21:20
not to nitpick here, but isn't Slaanesh kinda supposed to be the weakest?

Khorne is the strongest because the galaxy is filled to the brim with eternal slaughter. Nurgle is the second strongest because said slaughter brings nigh endless levels of despair. Tzeench is third, as ever so many desire the above to change, and even in the face of despair, some hope yet remains. Slaanesh is last, because in the face of eternal war, there is only so much time one can spare for excesses.

As for characters.... why not just make up your own? Write up some nifty fluff + rules, give it a reasonable points cost, and I'm sure you local game store won't mind if you use it :)

Is Slaanesh the weakest? Slaanesh is the Lord of Excess...which all the other chaos gods feed.

Khorne is excessive violence and slaughter
Tzeentch is excessive scheming and quest for excessive power and knowledge
Nurgle is excessive despair and excessive (perverted) life and growth

Soon, the student will become the master. :p

Minudra
04-02-2011, 22:32
how do you show talents of the excess in gaming turns?

I can see a bunch of deamons or marines with sooo many weapons strapped all over them like Rambo. Each one running around looting all the dead bodies looking for more weapons... and when you run out of dead bodies... make more dead bodies!

youngsamwise
04-02-2011, 22:54
In the Daemons of Chaos book, each god seems to have one thing sewn up:

Khorne - best HQ (bloodthirster)
Nurgle - best troops (plaguebearers)
Tzeentch - best Heavy Support(tzeentch daemon prince)
Slaanesh - best Fast Attack

Three of the four gods compete for best Elite spot as, situationally, the bloodcrusher, fiend, and flamer (who is definitely third in the list) all provide very different but very useful abilities.

In my opinion, Nurgle probably got the worst deal:
-All metal models.
-The Daemon Prince is okay, but pales in comparison to a bloodthirster for straight up killing, and he comes in at a pretty hefty price for what he does.
-Beasts aren't even very good in an all-Nurgle army, let alone compared to the other elite choices.
-The Great Unclean One is just a budget HQ. He should have been T7 and should have had 6W, so he rarely sees play above 1000 pts as the other GD's have T6, a 4++ or better, and better Initiative. All he gets is FNP and an extra wound, but I2 and SNP, in addition to a lack of fleet or wings.
-Kugath is just an expensive version of a great unclean one. A REALLY expensive version that craps out free kill points and can shoot something that doesn't hurt tanks. Yippee!
-Epidemus makes all-Nurgle somewhat playable, but takes up half an HQ slot and you spend your entire game protecting him. He should be taken as an elite, not HQ.
-Herald of Nurgle is the worst unit you can take in any list.
-Fast Attack? What fast attack?

Slaanesh on the other hand, sports a servicable HQ in the herald of slaanesh, the best fast attack and arguably the best elite. All of which are cavalry/beast, high initiative, rending, volume attacks. Yes, they have the worst Greater Daemon in the Keeper of Secrets and the worst troop choice and a horrible model in Daemonettes, and pretty much nothing in terms of uniques and heavy support. On the other hand, I view Skarbrand as a Slaanesh HQ, not a Khorne HQ. If he were 60 pts less (to account for the lack of wings) he would probably see more play, despite the fact that he helps your opponent. And then there is the masque that would be great if either she used lash of submission instead of pavane, or she were an IC (preferably the latter.) Seekers are an awesome looking model, masque is okay, and the old daemonettes were fantastic. Fiends are pretty meh for $20 each though. Lack of herald model makes for a good excuse to convert (it's not like you would ever use more than two anyway...)

Khorne gets a great HQ, arguably the best elite, bad fast attack, horrible Heavy Support and a troop choice that is awesome and awful at the same time. Look, I can kill anything with my bloodletters...unless it shoots me...or is in cover...or is far away... Skulltaker is probably my favorite thing in the book and he is not even needed when you are fielding bloodletters and bloodcrushers. And of course Khorne has the Unique Greater Daemon that should never be fielded with a Khorne army (fluff reasons, but also for tactical reasons.) Plastic bloodletters and bloodcrusher kits! On the other hand, the bloodthirster is just silly looking, as is skulltaker.

Tzeentch is the only shooting and sports a perfectly balanced Greater Daemon, cost effective Heavy Support in the Daemon Prince, a weaker but none-the-less good elite in flamers, a servicable but overpriced troop choice in horrors, and a usuable fast attack in screamers. It's the only god that can use all of it's slots. And I didn't even mention Fateweaver. Yeah, they suck in combat.

Korraz
04-02-2011, 23:12
Daemonettes were also ridiculously good in the short time between the Codex release and the 5th edition. Deep Striking, sprinting, multi attack, I6, RENDING models? Holy mother of god, we are all dead.

I also find it highly amusing that Slaanesh is always called the "Problematic God, PG wise", while the other three are about slaughter and killing, living decay, desease and the third about blank madness, High Octane Nightmarefuel Body Horror and despair.

nightgant98c
05-02-2011, 00:44
I tried to love Slaanesh, but it went very badly for me.

TheMav80
05-02-2011, 01:24
I tried to love Slaanesh, but it went very badly for me.

At first it hurts, but then it feels good...real good.

Brettila
05-02-2011, 03:12
Well, Slaanesh was really good in 4th. A charge from Demonettes or Steeds meant 30-40 attacks at S4 with any 6's doing a rend. Marines were fearless I+1; including Termies, etc. I am not sure why they were weakend so much in 5th. Rending's change was enough that the reduced strength seems unnecessary. I have no idea why Noise Marines are the most expensice cult. They should probably come with sonic blasters, and only pay for doom sirens and blastmasters. That would drop a unit of 10 with a powerfist to 300, which is right in line with Nurgle and Tzeentch. But 345 points for a squad with no invulnerable save is a tad bit ri-GD-diculous.

Axeman1n
05-02-2011, 05:31
Maybe it's to compensate for the best Psychic power in the game, which nearly single handedly launched the Mechanized revolution. I love Slaanesh as much as the next guy, but that thing is broken broken broken. The Pavane is better, only because it has shorter range.

I do think that the guns should be cheaper, especially when you see they say you can "Upgrade" a gun to an inferior sonic version on some of the vehicle upgrades. IMO the best place for a Slaanesh player right now is Apocolypse. You can take what elements of the CSM you like, and combine them with those you prefer from the CD. They even have nifty cost cutting Formation (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1181495_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Emperor's_Children_Warband.pdf) for easy download off the GW web site.

AmKhaibitu
05-02-2011, 16:37
Relic have given us some Slaaneshi loving in Dawn Of War 2 Retribution with Noise Marines.
In multiplayer it's a 3 man? unit which can be upgraded with a blastmaster and then acts similar to a plasma cannon (needs to set up and so on).

They also have an ability which when triggered places a slaanesh symbol over the target unit, in pink no less :D

igenstilch
06-02-2011, 18:02
I don't think GW want to push Slaanesh too hard from a marketing point of view. They sell a lot of stuff to 12 year old kids and don't want to be seen as pushing soft porn / ideas about sex at children. It wouldnt surprise me if they replace Slaanesh / change it beyond recognition in the long run.

Mark.

I asked Forge World about if and when they would come out with a Slaanesh and emperors children conversion pack a few weeks back, no response yet. ;_;

From a design perspective, They should probably start at the race that birthed slaanesh. The new dark eldar would offer plenty of model and rule ideas to use for slaanesh. use "intense interaction" as a theme. And skim by the sexual aspect.

-CC focused units (some champion variant?). Infiltrate, stealth, furious charge, fleet. (the surprise butt sex special)
-Poison weapons
-combat drugs

off the top of my head rules ideas
-Excess in all the senses. assaulting a unit of slaanesh worshipers is an intense experience. Either from the blinding colors and patterns on the armor, their bizarre screaming, or even the wide range of smells. Units in assault with a slaanesh cult must pass a leadership check (to maintain focus) or loose 1 attack per model assaulting (to a minimum of 1). This applies only to the first round of combat.
-Siren song (for slaanesh daemons and sorcerers) models that have declared a shooting attack against this model / unit must pass a leadership test to continue as normal, if failed the attacking units shooting automatically results in all misses for this phase (no effect on vehicles).
-Immune to poisons. After hundreds of years of self inflicted chemical experimentation. Slaanesh worshipers can survive even the most potent of toxins (and come back for more). Weapons / units with Poison will roll to wound at there Str value. If no Str value is given, the weapon is given a Str value of 1.

Hellebore
07-02-2011, 00:05
I asked Forge World about if and when they would come out with a Slaanesh and emperors children conversion pack a few weeks back, no response yet. ;_;

From a design perspective, They should probably start at the race that birthed slaanesh. The new dark eldar would offer plenty of model and rule ideas to use for slaanesh. use "intense interaction" as a theme. And skim by the sexual aspect.

-CC focused units (some champion variant?). Infiltrate, stealth, furious charge, fleet. (the surprise butt sex special)
-Poison weapons
-combat drugs

off the top of my head rules ideas
-Excess in all the senses. assaulting a unit of slaanesh worshipers is an intense experience. Either from the blinding colors and patterns on the armor, their bizarre screaming, or even the wide range of smells. Units in assault with a slaanesh cult must pass a leadership check (to maintain focus) or loose 1 attack per model assaulting (to a minimum of 1). This applies only to the first round of combat.
-Siren song (for slaanesh daemons and sorcerers) models that have declared a shooting attack against this model / unit must pass a leadership test to continue as normal, if failed the attacking units shooting automatically results in all misses for this phase (no effect on vehicles).
-Immune to poisons. After hundreds of years of self inflicted chemical experimentation. Slaanesh worshipers can survive even the most potent of toxins (and come back for more). Weapons / units with Poison will roll to wound at there Str value. If no Str value is given, the weapon is given a Str value of 1.

So basically dark eldar harlequins on crack belting out a rock solo whilst tearing your head off with their pleasure centres?

Quick! To the awesome mobile!

Although it would be just like GW for them to have space marines out do the race that created Slannesh...

Hellebore

Wraithseer
07-02-2011, 00:53
I don't really see a problem, it is not that I would not like some more range of minis, or some tougher troops, or...ect. The fact is I have them.:evilgrin: Any good Slaaneshi knows that your best troops are foolishly on the other team; you just have to remind them who they truly serve. Jokes aside, I have had a lot of fun converting Slaaneshi 'zerks, Drugged up plague marines, and Rubric dolls. GW may have given me weak "Slaaneshi" units, but they gave me Fluff that tells me to corrupt everything I can get my mits on. I try and put some work into it, you will never just see a purple GuO, I will at least resculpt it into The Grimace, because icons of gluttony are very Slaaneshi.:p

Born Again
07-02-2011, 05:27
Plus, we're no longer in the 80s, so a group of guys playing demon-possessed guitars and blowing up their enemies with The Power of Rock! doesn't really fit current musical trends.


Well, they could bring back a chaos version of the old Squat Musicians, that had synthesizers... that'd cover the terrible electro stuff going on these days. And a Doom Siren is clearly just a hyped-up version of auto-tune :p

Hellebore
07-02-2011, 05:33
I don't think I could cope with GW trying to get the new crowd by turning noise marines into Ghetto BlastaZ that beatbox their opponents to death with lyrics describing how hard life was in the Crusade...:cries:

Hellebore

AlphariusOmegon20
07-02-2011, 06:30
LOL I'd like to see FW take a shot at making a Subjugator titan as well as Vraksian style products.

Johnnyfrej
07-02-2011, 09:42
I don't really see a problem, it is not that I would not like some more range of minis, or some tougher troops, or...ect. The fact is I have them.:evilgrin: Any good Slaaneshi knows that your best troops are foolishly on the other team; you just have to remind them who they truly serve. Jokes aside, I have had a lot of fun converting Slaaneshi 'zerks, Drugged up plague marines, and Rubric dolls. GW may have given me weak "Slaaneshi" units, but they gave me Fluff that tells me to corrupt everything I can get my mits on. I try and put some work into it, you will never just see a purple GuO, I will at least resculpt it into The Grimace, because icons of gluttony are very Slaaneshi.:p
I agree with this guy (who I have never met), although mine tend to be khorne-skewed.

Lord Inquisitor
07-02-2011, 17:09
So basically dark eldar harlequins on crack belting out a rock solo whilst tearing your head off with their pleasure centres?

Quick! To the awesome mobile!

Yeah! :evilgrin:

Hellebore to write the next Chaos Codex!

Korraz
07-02-2011, 20:06
I don't think I could cope with GW trying to get the new crowd by turning noise marines into Ghetto BlastaZ that beatbox their opponents to death with lyrics describing how hard life was in the Crusade...:cries:

Hellebore

That would be the late ninties, early 2000s. A bit late for that. :rolleyes:


As much as I love musical references (I still have to convert all those Up To Eleven Ork-Things I have in mind. An UTE-Monsta-Megablasta for a Stompa, an UTE-Mega-Powaklaw....), it's not really Chaos any more. 40k isn't the Space Parody it used to be. Except...maybe for the Tainted Coil of Brütal Legend. I always thought the Coil would make an awesome chaos army.

massey
07-02-2011, 20:30
40k isn't the Space Parody it used to be.

But it should be. :) I always liked that Slaanesh was the Satan of the 1980s that your mom warned you about, the one that put demonic spells in the lyrics to heavy metal albums played backwards.

Now, of course it's possible to get too silly with that sort of thing (good parody needs to take itself seriously), but you don't want to play it so straight that no one gets that there's a joke in the first place. Lately things have been too serious. It needs to be somewhere between "Andy Kaufman impersonates Johnny Cash" and "Andy Kaufman wrestling women" as far as letting the audience in on the joke.

Mit Gas
08-02-2011, 11:11
They are NOISE marines, not MUSIC marines. So what's this crap about rap and death metal. They don't play music, they just produce gibberish, hella loud and disharmonic noise.

massey
08-02-2011, 13:18
They are NOISE marines, not MUSIC marines. So what's this crap about rap and death metal. They don't play music, they just produce gibberish, hella loud and disharmonic noise.

Just like rap and death metal. ;)

Axeman1n
08-02-2011, 15:10
It's not gibberish. Didn't you Watch Dune?

big squig
08-02-2011, 15:59
In the Deamon books for both games we get the weakest basic troop

Wait what? Daemonetts are amazing!

AlphariusOmegon20
08-02-2011, 16:18
In the Deamon books for both games we get the weakest basic troop


Wait what? Daemonetts are amazing!

I missed that one before.

Off topic:

Yeah, I'd certainly like to know how in WFB having ASF with rerolls, armor piercing weapons, being one of the fastest units in game, and a initiative equal to or higher than most HE is "weak" in 8th ed.

8th ed. made Daemonettes BETTER, not worse.

Oakwolf
08-02-2011, 18:41
I disagree.

Just play a slaaneshi demonic army in either of the 2 main games and you'll see how deficient the god is, especially core troops.

aka_mythos
08-02-2011, 19:01
I think given GW's attempt to turn slaanesh Disney safe... I would say demphasize the sex and pleasure aspects and turn them more into a theme of manipulation. The way those things are perverted; emphasize that aspect of it. Some of the slannesh special rules already rely heavily on that, so it just needs to be taken to a level where it is further accentuated.

The whole thing of noise marines not coming with sonic blasters is only because they're packaged with bolters and not enough sonic weapons. I'm betting next revisit to the codex, they'll get a plastic box and GW will just tell people to use there bolter equiped noise marines as the regular Chaos marines.

Lord Inquisitor
09-02-2011, 00:09
I disagree.

Just play a slaaneshi demonic army in either of the 2 main games and you'll see how deficient the god is, especially core troops.

I've got plenty of tournament wins to show a pure* Slaanesh daemon army works just fine in WFB, both in 7th and 8th. Can't comment on pure Slaanesh in 40K.

*Or almost pure, I do take furies and the occasional Tzeentch herald for magic.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
09-02-2011, 00:34
Slaanesh Daemons are strong across the board in Fantasy, though not so much in 40k due to the nerf to Rending. The Slaanesh marks in both the WoC and CSM books are underpowered though.

Lord Inquisitor
09-02-2011, 00:41
Well, as I said earlier, WoC don't take the Slaanesh mark any more in 8th but in 7th it was standard issue. So Slaanesh had it's time in WoC as the dominant mark and the edition shift just made it obsolete. In 40K the Noise Marines and the Slaanesh Icon are workable even in competitive lists, just about. It takes some skill and certainly troops like Plagues are probably more points-effective and certainly more forgiving, but Slaanesh CSM can be competitive too.

AlphariusOmegon20
09-02-2011, 02:29
Well, as I said earlier, WoC don't take the Slaanesh mark any more in 8th but in 7th it was standard issue. So Slaanesh had it's time in WoC as the dominant mark and the edition shift just made it obsolete. In 40K the Noise Marines and the Slaanesh Icon are workable even in competitive lists, just about. It takes some skill and certainly troops like Plagues are probably more points-effective and certainly more forgiving, but Slaanesh CSM can be competitive too.

I wouldn't say it's obsolete. I'd say it's situational now. I've seen a plethora of Hellcannons pop up recently in WoC armies. MoS helps greatly against them.

cailus
09-02-2011, 02:39
GW doesn't like sex cause parents of young children find it offensive. So if they make Slaaneesh unappealling they can eventually retcon him out! :p

Remember murder and slaughter is good, liking girls is not. :eek:

AlphariusOmegon20
09-02-2011, 02:46
liking girls is not.

Well, that would explain why there are so few female 40K players.....

cailus
09-02-2011, 03:31
Well, that would explain why there are so few female 40K players.....

Tis a shame for the more socially challenged wargamers. They could meet ladies and make little nerdy wargamers. :wtf:

igenstilch
09-02-2011, 23:12
Reading over the 3rd ed chaos codex, seemed Slaanesh got plenty of love there. If they brought that codex up to date and gave Slaanesh some model range love, I would be satisfied.

aka_mythos
10-02-2011, 14:17
Speaking of past edition slaanesh... the 3rd edition noise marine champion had the big crab claw as did some other clearly slaanesh RT era models... It was just left as a generic count as weapon... but you'd think that's the sort of thing that could have been expanded upon to give slaanesh followers something distinctive.

Hellebore
10-02-2011, 14:37
Those models were 2nd ed models. afaik it was just a power claw/fist in 2nd ed.

Hellebore

sgtspiff
10-02-2011, 14:39
GW doesn't like sex cause parents of young children find it offensive. So if they make Slaaneesh unappealling they can eventually retcon him out! :p


It's crazy that killing killing killing and manipulation and corruption is ok but the pleassure based stuff it's just not possible.

I would love too see more of slaanesh out there. Specially when pink is a perfect color against all green and grey boards (almost can't see the enemy when playing nurgle).

aka_mythos
10-02-2011, 14:53
Those models were 2nd ed models. afaik it was just a power claw/fist in 2nd ed.

HelleboreWell they were used into 3rd. I tend to think of the Guitar-holding noise marine as the 2nd ed models.

I realize it was just a power claw/fist... but my point was it was distinctive, just as plague knives and chainaxes could have been left as just generic weapons they were made into more (then kinda unmade)... just it was a little thing that could have been the tiniest way to do a smidgen more with slaanesh. A powerfist on a model who's main advantage was "I" never made too much sense... even if pragmatic.

AlphariusOmegon20
10-02-2011, 15:05
I disagree.

Just play a slaaneshi demonic army in either of the 2 main games and you'll see how deficient the god is, especially core troops.

LOL I have a WFB Slaanesh Daemon army, as well as Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch. I have no issues with winning with it. In fact, I had to shelve my daemons BECAUSE I won so often with them, it was hard to get games with people.

Axeman1n
10-02-2011, 15:26
I was told that 7th edition Daemons were OP, but 8th edition are meh. I do think that this is mostly talking about Slaanesh in 40k however, and they have been getting boned by the nerf bat for a few years now.

ago syb
10-02-2011, 19:10
Daemonettes were cool in 4th ed because of the way rending worked back then and also the way casualties were removed in combat, not to mention lash, so I don't think its fair to say slaanesh doesn't get love.

It would be neat if they moved slaanesh to a smaller, more elite force. The background always describes his/her warriors as nearing perfection. I agree an I bonus doesn't really cover that statement. Game terms talking fleet, fnp, furious charge, higher I and Str and even wound count. Between giving that amount of power to something as brutal as a space marine and the immense arrogance that likely comes hand in hand with it feels like it would make sense to me. Maybe some manner of drawback like them experiencing vertigo or withdrawals or something radical and fun like that. This is all for slaanesh themed marines btw, GW has made a pretty deliberate attempt to separate them from daemons. Can't make any deals with the devil you can really trust, after all.
Daemons-wise, they have bounced here and there for the aesthetic. Big thing I want is a new Keeper of Secrets model more in line with the artwork in one of the high elves books and the 40k daemons book. Just more humanoid and lithe, the bull and squid thing has me scratching my head sometimes. That and the fact that they were spawned by the eldar pretty much shoves the daemons themselves into the high I T3 niche for the wide spectrum of daemons.

Either way, if they are in fact doing specific legion books (not-so-near future, I'd imagine), I look forward to what they do with them. Their designs usually leave me presently surprised as they develop and move the different factions in more specific directions.

Oakwolf
10-02-2011, 19:32
I agree that WFB is easier on slaanesh than 40k, but there's been a big change in 8th. Now it's Khorne Demons that got the real palm, when it comes to efficiency. Then you got Tzeentch magicians which are pretty good to obscene with Fateweaver.

For example, a Bloodletters Horde of 40 is a beast of a troop indeed. Demonettes are far from there and by a large margin. Hordes do not benefit Demonettes and at the same time, ensure that the unit will suffer loss in return. Fiends and Keepers are what make the slaaneshi legion stand a chance, coupled with Siren Song. There is the Ld bomb strat with the Masque and icon of despair.

In 40k, the situation is not as grey...it's dark black. Demonettes are the least effective core troop by a ridiculous distance. They, at best, will stall a unit into a slow attrition fight, which invariably make the nettes pay dearly for whatever they can scratch. Fiends are the pride of Slaanesh in 40k, but that's all there is.

Axeman1n
10-02-2011, 19:38
I think the Mark of Slaanesh should give WS5

NixonAsADaemonPrince
11-02-2011, 00:07
I think the Mark of Slaanesh should give WS5

A purely close combat advantage like that is more Khorne's thing, Daemonettes should be faster, harder to hit like Wyches and have other powers to represent their alluring nature.

Axeman1n
11-02-2011, 04:36
When I was reading the HH, the Emperors Children had unparalleled martial prowess. They sought perfection in everything.
WS/BS +1? I think they should be more skilled is all.
Having the aura is enough for defense on Daemonettes. Personally I think they are perfect.
I'll take them in my CSM please. Oh, I'd like to have access to Fiends too.
I think i speak for most when I say, why doesn't the sacred number appear anywhere in either codex?

cailus
11-02-2011, 04:43
It's crazy that killing killing killing and manipulation and corruption is ok but the pleassure based stuff it's just not possible.



It's bizarre. But sex is taboo in our culture.

It's why violent movies ala SAW are considered ok but porn is not.

It's proof humans are retarded - killing is ok but procreating is not.

Lord Inquisitor
11-02-2011, 04:59
I hate to be the voice of reason because the general societal values associated with sex and violence is one of my pet rants ... but we're talking about sex with violence, and we're talking about peverse sex with violence. We aren't talking about making love here... ;)

Slaanesh is all about sating dark and horrific desires. Not really kiddie-friendly stuff.

OneMeanDuck
11-02-2011, 05:12
Noise Marines have always sucked though... even in the last codex they sucked... Nothing new... I do like to use the mark of slaanish with terminators alot...

As for slaanesh not being well represented in the new codexes i will bring to light the codex chaos marines... Noise marines suck, ok, but when is the last time you have seen a sorceror lord or daemon prince that wasnt using lash? And I find myself running slaanesh terminators most of the time cause its cheap and 1I is huge if you need to take on other terminators, sangy guard, and such.

If you look at the most competative chaos builds the only god pressent is slaanesh (IMHO)
2x lash princes,
regular chaos marines in rhinoes
obliterators
termicide squads.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-02-2011, 05:18
Noise marines suck, ok, but when is the last time you have seen a sorceror lord or daemon prince that wasnt using lash?

I don't use it in my Alpha Legion List. I run Undivided across the board.

Yunaris
11-02-2011, 22:23
Probably because GW are terrified of nipples and too busy making new Space Marines.

Lord Asgul
16-02-2011, 02:41
I don't use it in my Alpha Legion List. I run Undivided across the board.

Same for me. I don't use Lash Princes and never have. Obliterators yes. But only 1 squad of 3 in a 4000 points army.

Just going by the title of the thread. You would think Slaanesh would get a lot of love...albeit dark, kinky, twisted love...

AlphariusOmegon20
16-02-2011, 02:53
Same for me. I don't use Lash Princes and never have. Obliterators yes. But only 1 squad of 3 in a 4000 points army.


LOL I don't even use the Oblits with my AL.

In my IW army, sure, but not in my AL.