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jamesgurney100
05-02-2011, 11:48
Am i reading this right? can blood angel land raider REALLY deep strike. isnt that a bit OP.

Lothlanathorian
05-02-2011, 11:51
Not really OP. It hits the ground and has to sit there for a turn, could scatter into terrain, off the board, etc. Also, this topic has been done to death.

Zweischneid
05-02-2011, 11:52
Am i reading this right? can blood angel land raider REALLY deep strike. isnt that a bit OP.

First question: Yes.

Second question: No, though it would have been nice to see GW put a token 5 pt. price-increase or something like that on them to show/acknowledge that they are (slightly) more versatile than Vanilla/Wolf-Landraiders. Whatever the risk, they "have" the option to take that risk, which Vanilla-Marines/Wolves do not.

ehlijen
05-02-2011, 12:03
It's an option to risk being killed before you arrive in the game, to give up the chance to shoot for at least one turn and most of a second turn, to allow a squad to do something it could do for cheaper with jump packs or a droppod and to still not go anywhere you couldn't have gotten to in two turns of moving full speed and deploying right. I don't see why that needs a points boost.

The Marshel
05-02-2011, 12:03
seeing as anything that can make use of deep striking raiders can either deeps strike of its own accord, or via a drop pod (which is notably safer) its not really game breaking in anyway. the firepower of a dropped raider is no worse then that of a dropped dread, and you're just putting it right infront of the opponents melta weapons/railguns etc

Zweischneid
05-02-2011, 12:11
It's an option to risk being killed before you arrive in the game, to give up the chance to shoot for at least one turn and most of a second turn, to allow a squad to do something it could do for cheaper with jump packs or a droppod and to still not go anywhere you couldn't have gotten to in two turns of moving full speed and deploying right. I don't see why that needs a points boost.

Maybe. There is acounter to everything in 40K. But that is not the point. It is still an added option that gives you alternatives in deployment/strategy other comparable armies do not have and which may or may not be useful, even if only under highly specific circumstances. By and large, more options should cost more points. Whether you deem them useful to your style of play or not is irrelevant.

The Marshel
05-02-2011, 12:16
i wouldnt wanna force that point cost down blood angles throats though. It'd be fairer if they had the option to take a "thunderhawk transport drop" rather then having deep strike inbuilt and being forced to pay for an arguably stupid option they'll never use (plus, having it as an upgrade with such a name might clear some of the confusion and omg no way effect amongst players trying to wrap their heads around how a landraider teleports onto the field)

Lothlanathorian
05-02-2011, 12:26
More options added to something that also give it an equal number of draw backs while also existing in a slot with lots of other competition doesn't need an increase in points.

Zweischneid
05-02-2011, 12:28
More options added to something that also give it an equal number of draw backs while also existing in a slot with lots of other competition doesn't need an increase in points.

Unlike Vanilla/Wolf Landraiders, BA-Landraiders don't occupy a FoC-slot. This, arguably, could also justify another 5 pt. increase.

I do however agree that making it truly optional to "buy" a "Thunderhawk delivery" for each Landraider at 5 pts. would have been the best solution of them all.

Also, your logic of drawbacks doesn't make sense. Equipping a Space Marine with a Plasmagun instead (or even in addition in a combi-plasma) to his Boltgun has the drawback of perhaps getting a "get's hot". Should plasmaguns (or combi-plasmas) thus be free in unlimited quantities as a result?

Also, strictly, BA-Landraiders loose nothing for getting Deep Strike. They can still deploy like other Landraiders. Deep Strike is an OPTION they have at no costs (neither in points or loss of other things). If they get Deep Strike (which, yes, can be a risky manoeuver) but loose something in turn that other Landraiders have, than, yes, one could argue for a no-cost trade-off.

Lothlanathorian
05-02-2011, 12:33
No, but they also aren't as expensive as a S7 AP3 weapon would be without Gets Hot would be.

And while not occupying a FOC slot is no more a 'benefit' than if it did.

Zweischneid
05-02-2011, 12:38
No, but they also aren't as expensive as a S7 AP3 weapon would be without Gets Hot would be.


Sure, and a Landraider Deepstrike without Scatter or Mishap would certainly be more pricy than 5 pts. But even with all its drawbacks, it's one more thing BA-Landraiders have that other Landraiders don't. If "X" costs 250 points, than "X+z" should cost 250+"p of z". Simple really.



And while not occupying a FOC slot is no more a 'benefit' than if it did.

Sure it is. FoC-slots are a "limited resource" in building lists just as "points" are. Being able to field something "without using a FoC-slot" is conceptually identical with being able to field something "without paying points for it". Either ignores one of the "limits" put into place to create "balanced" armies. Same applies for default-HS-Dreads. A BA-regular-Dread comes at an effective 100 pts.&1HQ-slot discount compared to Vanilla Marines as they need not take a MoTF.

If you think there is no benefit in not using a FoC slot, than why is there such thing as a FoC in the first place?

Lothlanathorian
05-02-2011, 12:56
So, since Vanilla Terminators can have Land Raiders as Transports, should they have to pay an extra 2 points for them when taken as such?

Zweischneid
05-02-2011, 13:02
So, since Vanilla Terminators can have Land Raiders as Transports, should they have to pay an extra 2 points for them when taken as such?

They probably should pay something, yes. I am not giving a definite answer on point values, but they give an added value that is not priced.

Or, perhaps as alternative, Landraiders bought without "cargo" at the expense of a HS-slot could come at a slight discount.

Lothlanathorian
05-02-2011, 13:17
Well, I'll give you one for being consistent :p

massey
05-02-2011, 16:02
Sure, and a Landraider Deepstrike without Scatter or Mishap would certainly be more pricy than 5 pts. But even with all its drawbacks, it's one more thing BA-Landraiders have that other Landraiders don't. If "X" costs 250 points, than "X+z" should cost 250+"p of z". Simple really.



Sure it is. FoC-slots are a "limited resource" in building lists just as "points" are. Being able to field something "without using a FoC-slot" is conceptually identical with being able to field something "without paying points for it". Either ignores one of the "limits" put into place to create "balanced" armies. Same applies for default-HS-Dreads. A BA-regular-Dread comes at an effective 100 pts.&1HQ-slot discount compared to Vanilla Marines as they need not take a MoTF.

If you think there is no benefit in not using a FoC slot, than why is there such thing as a FoC in the first place?

The ability is so minuscule that it is effectively worth 0 points. If you really must make an issue of it, Blood Angels LRs do not come with a searchlight, whereas Vanilla and Wolf LRs do.

BA LRs also suffer by being only dedicated transports. That means you can only purchase one when you buy a squad for it to carry. You can't do a "3 squads tacticals in razorbacks plus 3 LRs" list. You'd have to buy 3 extra troops squads. That is a limitation.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
05-02-2011, 16:06
Also Vanilla Marines get more legroom.

Wolf Lord Balrog
05-02-2011, 21:55
The ability is so minuscule that it is effectively worth 0 points. If you really must make an issue of it, Blood Angels LRs do not come with a searchlight, whereas Vanilla and Wolf LRs do.

1 point. Ok, not much, but we are only talking a 'token' charge, so I guess that works.


BA LRs also suffer by being only dedicated transports. That means you can only purchase one when you buy a squad for it to carry. You can't do a "3 squads tacticals in razorbacks plus 3 LRs" list. You'd have to buy 3 extra troops squads. That is a limitation.

That's not suffering much. You could instead take 3 Tact Squads each with a LR dedicated transport, and do whatever you want with the points you save on the Razorbacks. A couple Predators, a Stormraven, some Terminators ...

ehlijen
05-02-2011, 22:37
Remember that squads with jump packs (which get loads of free stuff in C:BA) can't have dedicated transports. So in order to get a deepstriking landraider, at least one squad has to give up Descent of Angels (and there's a jump pack squad in almost every slot that you could have taken to get it).

Clang
05-02-2011, 23:49
I'd love to see a BA LR modelled with StormRaven/DropPod-style thrusters to at least visually justify the deep striking - the whole 'drop them out of a Thunderhawk' thing just seems so silly.

The Marshel
06-02-2011, 03:33
its not really dropping them a couple hundred feet. i'd assume you've seen a thawk transporter (if not, its easy enough to find on forgeworld). they'd just be placing them down maybe 30-40 feet, but in the middle of a battle zone. its basically exactly the same how a thawk transporter would operate in Apocalypse, except now the thawk is abstracted

Hellebore
06-02-2011, 03:39
If deep strike really isn't worth anything then there is no reason they couldn't make every vehicle in the game deepstrike.

If it literally has 0 worth then it will self balance regardless of how many times it is used.

If you don't think that every marine vehicle deepstriking is an advantage regardless of the number, then there is no problem.

However, I very much doubt it will have a true 0 value.

Therefore, it has a cost.

Hellebore

SamaNagol
06-02-2011, 04:02
It's rubbish. It's in no way OP whatsoever

Infidel
06-02-2011, 04:59
It's rubbish. It's in no way OP whatsoever
Really? I for one, is a rare daemon player and although I have been conditioned to make the most of my deepstrikes, i think you'd be amazed how flexible an option deep-strking land raider is.

1. Let's not forget that even if you buy a dedicated transport, you don't have to start in it, so you just get the landraider at the cost of the guys inside legging it.
2. Regular deployment usually have you driving across the board for at least 2 turns before you can bring your LR where they really need to be (disembarking by turn 3), DSing means that it only takes a single turn (disembarking by turn 2). Even a land-raider would appreciate reducing the in-coming shooting by a full turn.
3. The tactical flexibility of being able to drop them anywhere on the board when they come out of reserve is absolute gold. Reinforcing vulnerable position, tank-shocking enemy objective-holders off objectives....list goes on.

If you don't see value in being able to deep-strike your landraiders at no extra cost, then you and I are not playing the same game.

Lothlanathorian
06-02-2011, 05:12
'Value' =/= 'OP'

Azzy
06-02-2011, 05:31
I'd love to see a BA LR modelled with StormRaven/DropPod-style thrusters to at least visually justify the deep striking - the whole 'drop them out of a Thunderhawk' thing just seems so silly.

You do realize that modern tanks have been airdropped on many an occasion (with little more than a strapped-on palette and a small gaggle of parachutes)? This can either be a higher altitude low velocity airdrop or very low altitude, high velocity extraction airdrop.

To 40K-ify this, just replace the traditional parachutes with disposable gravchutes for the high altitude drops. The low altitude drops don't really require it considering how THawks carry the tanks. the biggest difference from our reality is that the tank crews of the LR (probably) drop in the tank rather than 'chuting in separately. They're SM in power armor... they can do that crap and not worry as much. ;)

hawo0313
06-02-2011, 05:56
i for one find it funny that of all the comparisons that people can make between marine codices the pick that the land raider has deep strike while vanilla ones dont. I believe that as has already been mentioned the FoC is the real difference and as stated the lack of searchlights does not entirely make up for the inbalance however while good value i do not find it OP.

in response to infidel i find that having two turns of having your troop choices without a transport is not the best idea as while the land raider may appreciate not being shot at your troop choices will not appreciate that they have to fend for themselves for two turns (at least) it is next to impossible to win objective games if your enemy kills your troops having them in a relatively vulnerable position doesn't help you in your goals. my enemies would be happy if i kept at least 250 pts off the board so i could have footslogging troops. theyd have an easy KP or an easy troops unit to deal with rather than one of the toughest units in the game to get through

i wont deny that its flexible its just not OP

NixonAsADaemonPrince
06-02-2011, 09:30
How about this for a tactic: Stormraven with Locater Beacon boosts into enemy deployment zone turn 1. Land Raider with Multi Melta deep strikes next to it next turn. Now that is going to cause some damage. Especially as they can drop off 2 Infantry squads and a Dread as well, while the Raider can hopefully shield the Raven from fire for a turn (If it survived the previous turn to implement
this tactic of course).

hawo0313
06-02-2011, 10:03
How about this for a tactic: Stormraven with Locater Beacon boosts into enemy deployment zone turn 1. Land Raider with Multi Melta deep strikes next to it next turn. Now that is going to cause some damage. Especially as they can drop off 2 Infantry squads and a Dread as well, while the Raider can hopefully shield the Raven from fire for a turn (If it survived the previous turn to implement
this tactic of course).

cant argue with that strategy as you even covered its weaknesses. However lets how your raider comes first turn or strategies strength will diminish significantly because unlike most of the army land raiders do not have descent of angels therefore this tactic could possibly work better with assault squads with meltas if thats what you want. you could even get two vanguard squads (with only jump packs) for the price of a land raider, and then kit them out for the price of the squad inside maybe for less in addition it could support the units in the storm raven and you will have 4 units in assault turn 2.

I consider this tactic equally effective but then again i rarely use LR's so maybe i missed the point

Dag
06-02-2011, 10:08
The idea of DS'ing a land raider being bad is horrendously dumb.

whats the worste thing about your 8termies in your LRC? they have to drive for 2 turns getting shot at, whats better? can i deploy this from a beacon? yes... then no scatter, and the raider drops on u with NO chance of every possibly doing anthing to it regardless of your skill / deployment / luck, no matter what DS'ing LR's show up, deal ALL they're ranged dmg then next turn drop their termies on you, this is not a BAD idea, its not optimal for fighting orks, or another army you want your raider on the board but whata bout the 9lance eldar / de armies you laugh at as your rhinos that are just about as tuff as a raider vs all that, waves when the LR drops all in their candy.

its ignorant of common tactics to say dropping the HEAVIEST battle tank on your opponents lines is bad.

Gingerwerewolf
06-02-2011, 10:13
From a purely rules point of view this is an interesting point, in the fact that never before have any troops been given Deep Strike without any other upgrade at the same time.

IE In SM armies the troops that have DS always have other benefits given to them at the same time. A jump pack makes them Jump Infantry, AND gives Deep Strike as well. Terminator Armour gives them a massive save, relentless and adds on the old Deep Strike.

This is the first time the Deep Strike Option has just been added to the unit.

Thus if we analyse the Deep Strike Rule we should remove the reserves part from our thinking, as any troops can be placed in reserve. Its a well known Free ability.

Thus its the ability to arrive in the middle of the Battlefield. That Arriving deep in the battlefield comes with disadvantages. Scatter and possible destruction.

So basicly the question is: Is Deep Striking worth any points considering it allows you to do something with a large chance of critical failure?

I for one have no problems with the rules of a Deep Striking Landraider. Points wise its balanced and with the extra considerations mentioned above (no searchlight and the fact that a Landraider is ONLY a dedicated Transport option) Im of the opinion that it is fine.

Fluff wise I dont like the, "we've got loads of toys, so we can throw them out of the pram / thunderhawk transporter" attitude that Blood Angels are supposed to have, but thats more of a complaint about Matt Wards Fluff writing skills than anything else.

Dag
06-02-2011, 10:34
can dante ride in a land raider

Dag
06-02-2011, 10:37
lol, ok wait, deepstriking a landraider achillies just sounds AWESOME!

Gingerwerewolf
06-02-2011, 10:47
can dante ride in a land raider

No because he is Jump Infantry and as such cannot get into a Landraider.

Thats why they have Stormravens

The Marshel
06-02-2011, 11:01
lol, ok wait, deepstriking a landraider achillies just sounds AWESOME!

i dont recall i blood angles have it or not in the forgeworld rules, but i can guarantee ya no one will be letting you deep strike that thing. even if BA can take it forgeworld didnt put deep strike in its profile

ironically though, that might be some armies best bet against it, so maybe a few people will let ya deep strike it in.

wilsongrahams
06-02-2011, 11:08
I don't think that it really needs a point increase due to the drawbacks from using that option, and comparing it to other codices doesn't work either, as BA Techmarines can't take a Thunderfire Cannon, so should they be cheaper because they don't have that option available?

A Codex is balanced within itself, and the very close similarities to the other Marine Codices is not itself a reason to compare units from one to another as they will fit into the options available and your whole army in different ways.

Gingerwerewolf
06-02-2011, 11:17
i dont recall i blood angles have it or not in the forgeworld rules, but i can guarantee ya no one will be letting you deep strike that thing. even if BA can take it forgeworld didnt put deep strike in its profile

ironically though, that might be some armies best bet against it, so maybe a few people will let ya deep strike it in.

Yep you are spot on there. Its in the Blood Angel rules that Land Raiders can deep stike. Thus since the Acillies isnt in the BA Codex, no deepstriking Im afraid.

ehlijen
06-02-2011, 11:45
From a purely rules point of view this is an interesting point, in the fact that never before have any troops been given Deep Strike without any other upgrade at the same time.

[...]

This is the first time the Deep Strike Option has just been added to the unit.


Not actually true. In the 3.5 IG codex all guard infantry could gain deep strike for free without paying a point or gaining any other rule. And it was generally considered worthless for anything other than special weapon squads (of which an army could have two).

massey
06-02-2011, 15:53
Here's a video of how they did this in real life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgg3iRaVnbw&feature=related

Now, I'm not going to say this ability is absolutely worthless. Obviously you don't have to use the deep strike rule, so it doesn't harm anything, and theoretically there's a clever strategy out there somewhere to make use of it. I just haven't seen one yet.

There are several problems with counting on turbo-boosting Stormravens with locator beacons. Problem #1: Even if it works, you're spending hundreds of extra points to make use of this ability. Even if the Stormraven goes on to do other things (instead of getting shot down on turn one or two), it's not getting to shoot at things turn one, and to make it work you're also locked into a particular style of build. Problem #2: Stormraven gets shot down, now you deepstrike with no locator beacon protection. Problem #3: What if the Land Raider doesn't come in immediately? Problem #4: Once the Land Raider does come in, you've got to wait an additional turn before the guys inside can do anything.

Deep Striking carries with it a high level of risk. In this particular case, you've got 250 points plus cargo being risked for what advantage? The Land Raider can deploy it's cargo to nearly any position on the board by turn 2 by simply driving there. Yes, people can shoot at you, but with armor 14 and good deployment it's probably safer than deep-striking.

Of ALL the things in the Blood Angel codex that I would like for my marines, deep striking Land Raiders is down there with "snazzy red paint scheme."

SamaNagol
06-02-2011, 17:22
Land Raiders don't really fear long ranged weapons. They fear being up close to melta.

So DSing them in up close but not being able to have the units get out is completely contradictory to the LRs strength.

Driving them up 12" one turn and firing the TL Assault Cannon then driving another 12", dumping out your Terminators 2" then charging 6" is far better.

Gingerwerewolf
07-02-2011, 14:11
Here's a video of how they did this in real life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgg3iRaVnbw&feature=related


That video is brilliant.

However it now makes me think, why arent there rules for smearing the enemy units with a Landraider shaped missile?

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 14:22
Land Raiders don't really fear long ranged weapons. They fear being up close to melta.

So DSing them in up close but not being able to have the units get out is completely contradictory to the LRs strength.

Driving them up 12" one turn and firing the TL Assault Cannon then driving another 12", dumping out your Terminators 2" then charging 6" is far better.

Which nobody denies. But giving BA-Landraiders Deep Strike did not strip them of their ability to drive up 12", etc.. etc,.. as you've described it. They can choose to do either. Non-BA Landraiders can only do one of the.

If BA were FORCED to deploy by Deep Strike, the argument would be different. But as it is, they get an additional ability, no matter how circumstancial or marginal its utility may be, at no additional costs.

massey
07-02-2011, 20:20
Which nobody denies. But giving BA-Landraiders Deep Strike did not strip them of their ability to drive up 12", etc.. etc,.. as you've described it. They can choose to do either. Non-BA Landraiders can only do one of the.

If BA were FORCED to deploy by Deep Strike, the argument would be different. But as it is, they get an additional ability, no matter how circumstancial or marginal its utility may be, at no additional costs.

It's very marginal. But they also lost searchlights (and can get them back for one whole point), and they follow a different FOC, which is theoretically limiting as well. Does that make up for it? Honestly, the deep strike ability is so risky, it remains nearly unused. That in and of itself seems to show that it's not overpowered.

Personally, I think giving them deep strike for even 5 points would be an option that people would not voluntarily take. If you made them base 255 points and gave them deep strike, you'd hear players saying "that rule sucks!" and complaining about it. The next time I see a Blood Angel player deep strike a Land Raider will be the first time I've seen it.