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kargenetic
06-02-2011, 23:32
Hey y'all, I was looking at the Grey Knights rumors (something I've spent WAY to much time on lately), and one frequent question is, "Who Wrote It?" Then someone mentioned that GW hired more writers last year for their development team.
All this got me thinking, who are the Games Workshop writers, especially for 40k? I know Ward, Cruddace, and Kelly. They seem to be the only 40k writers that GW is using for 5th ed. So who else is there?

Dvora
07-02-2011, 03:48
If it's Matt Ward, I'm going to vomit in rage.

AngelofSorrow
07-02-2011, 04:11
If it's Matt ward I will cheer my heart out. I love his army books.
( no there is no sarcasm to be found here I'm being honest)

Azzy
07-02-2011, 04:17
If it's Matt Ward, I'm going to vomit in rage.

You just made me hope it is Ward...

If it is, you better get someone to video and youtube your rage-vomit.

Dvora
07-02-2011, 04:19
If it's Matt ward I will cheer my heart out. I love his army books.
( no there is no sarcasm to be found here I'm being honest)

I know right, I can't wait for the salamanders or Ultramarines to show up and save the Grey knights. And Azzy, that might be a promise you can hold me to :D

Friedrich von Offenbach
07-02-2011, 04:25
If it's Matt Ward, I'm going to vomit in rage.

I think quite a few people would probably agree with you, after........last time

Torpedo Vegas
07-02-2011, 04:27
I really wouldn't mind it if Ward wrote the book, his codexes aren't as bad ass everyone makes them out to be, and only that "They can NEVER be Ultramarines but still want to be thing" is infuriating, and even that can be good for fluff (My DE Archon is a fallen Exarch, who became a pirate when he realized he could never be an Ultramrine). I heard that Ward is writing the crons book though. Maybe Phil Kelly can will do it.

Mannimarco
07-02-2011, 04:28
The new GK book will be interesting indeed folks:

If its Ward then Stern will destroy a particularly nasty daemon, seeing as Kabanda was just defeated in the BA dex so I would expect Stern to single handedly kerb stomp Ang'grath. Gotta keep that fluff power escalation going.

If its Cruddace then Stern will kerb stomp Ang'grath but will do so with his special rules and not fluff escalation, he will have at least 5 unique rules which differ only slightly from USRs.

TheRatsInTheWalls
07-02-2011, 04:53
Hey y'all, I was looking at the Grey Knights rumors (something I've spent WAY to much time on lately), and one frequent question is, "Who Wrote It?" Then someone mentioned that GW hired more writers last year for their development team.
All this got me thinking, who are the Games Workshop writers, especially for 40k? I know Ward, Cruddace, and Kelly. They seem to be the only 40k writers that GW is using for 5th ed. So who else is there?

Just a reminder y'all, this is not another winge-fest thread. This guy asked who writes for GW now, not how much they suck. I'd answer, but I only know the three he mentioned already (who I believe are the only 40k writers until the new crop get their own projects).

Stickmonkey
07-02-2011, 06:24
Cruddace is primary on the next release with some of the new writers cutting teeth. So far as I know.

tezdal
07-02-2011, 06:31
All the writes worth a damn left

Reflex
07-02-2011, 07:25
speaking of which who is writing the necron codex?

Dvora
07-02-2011, 07:39
speaking of which who is writing the necron codex?

From what I hear from the rumor mongers, Matt Ward is.

Endobai
07-02-2011, 08:13
speaking of which who is writing the necron codex?

Unfortunatelly Ward...

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 08:25
Dunno. The worst books by a long stretch in the current 5th edition range are Imperial Guard (ridiculously broken, unbalanced and badly priced) and Space Wolves (the ultimate comical low of wolvy-wolf-wolfman-wolves). Neither was written by Ward. Not that his writing is perfect, but Ward is certainly far, far superiour to the works of "I-have-a-feeble-grasp-of-balance-and-rule" Cruddace and "I-totally-ignore-rules-JoTWW-and-spam-corny-descriptives" Kelly.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 08:30
The new GK book will be interesting indeed folks:

If its Ward then Stern will destroy a particularly nasty daemon, seeing as Kabanda was just defeated in the BA dex so I would expect Stern to single handedly kerb stomp Ang'grath. Gotta keep that fluff power escalation going.

If its Cruddace then Stern will kerb stomp Ang'grath but will do so with his special rules and not fluff escalation, he will have at least 5 unique rules which differ only slightly from USRs.

Is it?

As far as I am aware, it was Cruddace who's responsible of the "fluff-escalation" concerning Calgar's role in the War for Maccragge, first introducing Swarmy and than having Calgar walz through the Hive Fleets to punch him. Mat Ward writing about the War for Maccragge was 100% in-line with older fluff (including Calgar not taking "active" part in the actual fighting).

Lothlanathorian
07-02-2011, 08:52
Is it?

As far as I am aware, it was Cruddace who's responsible of the "fluff-escalation" concerning Calgar's role in the War for Maccragge, first introducing Swarmy and than having Calgar walz through the Hive Fleets to punch him. Mat Ward writing about the War for Maccragge was 100% in-line with older fluff (including Calgar not taking "active" part in the actual fighting).

What book did you read? The Swarmlord almost kills Calgar and there is a fighting retreat as his Honor Guard drag him off.

And the fight with the Avatar was Calgar vs. Avatar down to one wound. It had been shot up and abused before Calgar got to it. That fight was the equivalent of kicking a crippled old man.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 09:05
What book did you read? The Swarmlord almost kills Calgar and there is a fighting retreat as his Honor Guard drag him off.


That may be so. The point is, that prior to the new Nid-Codex, i.e. going back to the Hive War supplement, etc.., Calgar didn't fight at all (hand-to-hand) in the War for Macragge, nor, of course, did the Swarmlord even exist.

I can see the rationale behind it. They introduce a new super-Nid, they need to fold it into the story, and no Nid-story is more "iconic" than Maccrage. I also think the Avatar-story in the Space Marine dex is just fine and not in any shape or form the degredation of the Eldar Avatar people make it out to be (indeed, the Avatar has rarely been described so well, not only as a monstrosity on the battlefield, but also in its battle-deciding effect on the fighting-moral of the Eldar).

But, especially concerning Maccragge, people lay blame on Mat Wards feet for "changing" their cherished fluff, which is idiotic on two accounts. First, because the change only appeared in the Nid Codex long after Mat Wards Space Marine Codex. And second, it's not necessarly a bad change; or at least, a change understandable for marketing a new Nid-beast.

Reflex
07-02-2011, 09:18
yay the necrons will kill several avatars! who knows maybe necrons will get twin linked meltas and flamers! or our immortals will be scoring units! woo!!! thunderfire cannos for all!!! woo!!1

on a more serious note...
5th edition wont be so bad when all the codecies are updated. the stuff ups from 4th (eldar + chaos come to mind) just need to be rectified. While there are fluff blunders in 5th, i'd rather have that then the excuse they called some of the 4th ed codecies....

HerrDusty
07-02-2011, 09:36
Neither was written by Ward. Not that his writing is perfect, but Ward is certainly far, far superiour to ...... and "I-totally-ignore-rules-JoTWW-and-spam-corny-descriptives" Kelly.

Bloodstrike missiles. Skies of Blood. Bloodshard Bolts. Blood Talons. Blood Lance. No, not as bad as Phil Kelly for corny descriptives at all :rolleyes:

Hell, the worst one is Bloodfists, a corny new name for an already existing weapon, that didn't need a new name at all. At least Wolf Claws have slightly different rules to Lightning Claws to justify their corny name ;)

JoTWW though, I won't defend, it's a daft power that shouldn't exist, so I pretend that it doesn't and don't use it.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 10:26
Bloodstrike missiles. Skies of Blood. Bloodshard Bolts. Blood Talons. Blood Lance. No, not as bad as Phil Kelly for corny descriptives at all :rolleyes:

Hell, the worst one is Bloodfists, a corny new name for an already existing weapon, that didn't need a new name at all. At least Wolf Claws have slightly different rules to Lightning Claws to justify their corny name ;)

JoTWW though, I won't defend, it's a daft power that shouldn't exist, so I pretend that it doesn't and don't use it.

Well, as I said, Ward has his share of screw-ups (Vulkan, Mephiston, "shudder"). But to his defense, the armies he writes play by and large how they are supposed to play. Salamanders get nasty short-ranged firepower, Blood Angels excel being a fast army that needs to stay on the top of the assault.

Space Wolves in play on the other hand are the inverse of what they are supposed to be. The stories talk to me about great heroes that slay terrible monsters and dangerously cunning savage-Marines. But what do you get on the table? The most cravenly-defensive Marine-Army yet that never does anything but sit on the baseline, spamming the opponent with underpriced Long Fangs and broken JOTWW, confident that their counter-attack makes any offensive tactical acumen void and acute senses helps them outrange their opponent even under bad circumstances. Wolvy-wolf-lord-riding-his-thunderwolf-with-his-wolfclaws aside, Space Wolves these days play more like Tau unafraid of a counter-assault than Space Marines. I sometimes wonder if Phail Kelly ever even played a game of 40K before writing the Wolves Codex.

And whether or not one likes the notion of Wolf-riding Space Marine Cavalry, the implementation seems almost purpose build to bring out the worst in nagging, cheating, powergaming and rule-lawyering among players. Even he proverbial monkey with his typewriter could have probably written better rules for those guys.

HerrDusty
07-02-2011, 10:52
I agree with what you're saying Zweischneid, I think it's a shame people play the Wolves like that, it totally flies in the face of how they are. I personally like using very assault oriented armies, I run a lot of Wolf Guard Terminators using Logan Grimnar (I loves me some Terminators :) ), and a few Grey Hunter squads to hold home objectives while the Terminators run off and slice up anything holding my opponent's objectives. The temptation to stand there and blaze away and let my opponent charge me is great due to Counterattack, but I only really do that with the Grey Hunters sitting on my objectives, it makes sense, whereby the Terminators run around nutting anything worth killing.

Oh, and I only have one squad of Long Fangs, honest :p

I'm personally of the opinion that when writing the codex Phil Kelly intended the army to be led by great heroes adding to their lengthy Sagas, but unfortunately when he made the troops cheaper so you could take these expensive characters, everybody just noticed the cheap Grey Hunters and started spamming them. Boooooo.

Born Again
07-02-2011, 11:22
^ Perfectly reasonable. I often wonder how many "gaping flaws" in the books are actually just "massive abuses" on the parts of the players that the writers never intended.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 11:26
^ Perfectly reasonable. I often wonder how many "gaping flaws" in the books are actually just "massive abuses" on the parts of the players that the writers never intended.

:wtf:

Well, if Kelly "intended" players to use strong characters and fewer troops (Long Fangs, whatever), it wouldn't have been hard to make characters cheaper and troops (Long Fangs, whatever) more expensive.

Not exactly rocket science, now is it?

Where does this warped logic come from? Are they going to write the next Tau Codex with the "intention" of making them a good shooty army by giving them awsome, underpriced assault-troops so people have "points-left" for pricy guns? Tell you what.. not going to work.

HerrDusty
07-02-2011, 11:41
I get the impression sometimes that GW writes their rules in this bubble where no one tries to abuse anything and everyone plays nice, friendly games with pretty relaxed lists, all fun and thematic. I imagine this is how GW want their games to be played, but unfortunately the reality is harsher than this and people can and will abuse anything they can.

GW need to learn from this and write their rules to be more watertight and less abuseable.

Born Again
07-02-2011, 14:08
:wtf:

Well, if Kelly "intended" players to use strong characters and fewer troops (Long Fangs, whatever), it wouldn't have been hard to make characters cheaper and troops (Long Fangs, whatever) more expensive.

Not exactly rocket science, now is it?

Where does this warped logic come from? Are they going to write the next Tau Codex with the "intention" of making them a good shooty army by giving them awsome, underpriced assault-troops so people have "points-left" for pricy guns? Tell you what.. not going to work.

Erm... no. HerrDusty had already spelled it out perfectly clear in the post I was referring to:



I'm personally of the opinion that when writing the codex Phil Kelly intended the army to be led by great heroes adding to their lengthy Sagas, but unfortunately when he made the troops cheaper so you could take these expensive characters, everybody just noticed the cheap Grey Hunters and started spamming them. Boooooo.

To further shine some light on it:


I get the impression sometimes that GW writes their rules in this bubble where no one tries to abuse anything and everyone plays nice, friendly games with pretty relaxed lists, all fun and thematic. I imagine this is how GW want their games to be played, but unfortunately the reality is harsher than this and people can and will abuse anything they can.


It's an entirely reasonable approach, and it's not their fault if people want to abuse the list and create something entirely different from what they intended. It is true to an extent that they write rules in a bit of a "bubble"... although rather than a bubble, maybe you could just say they're not massive beards trying to wring every ounce of tourney pwnage from a codex. Car manufactures just want people to get from point A to point B in safety and comfort, yet it's possible for the them to go at speeds which can obliterate any one or thing in their path. Road fatalities certainly aren't their intent though... it's a by-product of idiot drivers.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 14:27
It's an entirely reasonable approach, and it's not their fault if people want to abuse the list and create something entirely different from what they intended. It is true to an extent that they write rules in a bit of a "bubble"... although rather than a bubble, maybe you could just say they're not massive beards trying to wring every ounce of tourney pwnage from a codex. Car manufactures just want people to get from point A to point B in safety and comfort, yet it's possible for the them to go at speeds which can obliterate any one or thing in their path. Road fatalities certainly aren't their intent though... it's a by-product of idiot drivers.

I don't see how plain stupid has anything to do with the fluffy/casual vs. competitive debate.

If Ferrari wants to sell more red Ferraris, because red is the "proper way" to have a Ferrari, whether "casually" to cruise around town or "competitive" on the race track, lowering the prices for green Ferraris so people "have more money left" for the "intended", but expensive red ones is still a brain-dead approach. "Casual" does not change that.

Aluinn
07-02-2011, 14:28
From what I hear from the rumor mongers, Matt Ward is.

That explains why they became pals with the BA in the BA codex. :rolleyes:

Chem-Dog
07-02-2011, 14:34
and "I-totally-ignore-rules-JoTWW-and-spam-corny-descriptives" Kelly.

That was an off day....He did Dark Eldar since which is a stunningly good book. I've yet to see a single serious complaint about any aspect of it.

As others have said elsewhere, it's hard to make an army stand out in the Baskin Robbins selection that is the Adeptus Astartes.


What book did you read? The Swarmlord almost kills Calgar and there is a fighting retreat as his Honor Guard drag him off.

If you read between the lines one of the bodyguard was shouting "Leave it Marn, 'E Ain't worth it!" and Marn could have "Totally had him" if he hadn't been stopped....:shifty:



Hell, the worst one is Bloodfists

Not least because it sounds like a particularly "Special Interest" Website....:shifty:


I get the impression sometimes that GW writes their rules in this bubble where no one tries to abuse anything and everyone plays nice, friendly games with pretty relaxed lists, all fun and thematic.


Which is very easy when the RAI are in the head of the guy in the next room ;)
I'm willing to accept a lot of the abuses we hear about are due to unforseen uses and unfortunate wording based on the basic premise that it's just a game and people play it for fun :wtf::rolleyes:

AmKhaibitu
07-02-2011, 14:36
Hell, the worst one is Bloodfists, a corny new name for an already existing weapon, that didn't need a new name at all.
.

Well Dusty, there is a slight difference between Bloodfists and DCCWs, and that is the Bloodfist can get a bonus attack when combined with a DFW.
But other than that no difference.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 14:43
That was an off day....He did Dark Eldar since which is a stunningly good book. I've yet to see a single serious complaint about any aspect of it.


The Dark Eldar book is a ***-***ing violation of old fluff like nothing I have ever witnessed by GW before. Cloning? "Soul-leeching"? Vect now a kid of the gutters? Captial Space-Ships crashing into some city.:wtf::wtf::wtf: Gimmie a goddam break. Someone seriously needs to get off the Star Wars Clone Wars TV-series while writing 40K books.

If you're happy with that, but complain about the comparatively quite more modest, and fitting changes Mat Ward did to the Blood Angels such as the Sanguinary Guard/Sanguinor or the alliance-of-exhaustion/respect with the Necrons in one battle (to accommodate the popular reality of double-tournaments in the 40K hobby), your measuring by two standards in the most hypocritical bias possible.

Gingerwerewolf
07-02-2011, 14:44
^ Perfectly reasonable. I often wonder how many "gaping flaws" in the books are actually just "massive abuses" on the parts of the players that the writers never intended.

Exactly what I have asked in my Topic Here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291097)

Chem-Dog
07-02-2011, 14:48
Well Dusty, there is a slight difference between Bloodfists and DCCWs, and that is the Bloodfist can get a bonus attack when combined with a DFW.
But other than that no difference.

Isn't that a nonsense comparison though? Don't Blood Angel Dreads alone currently have the option to sport two differing CCW's?
Does anything about a Dread CCW preclude the gaining of an additional attack from a second different CCW? You can't apply Powerfist logic to it.


If later Dreads have similar options should we expect them to have Blood Fists?

Could all of this been solved with simply adding a Caveat in the Furioso Libby Dread entry instead, or even handing over an additional base attack?


It's a pointless distinction that only serves to highlight a rather obvious problem within the book itself.


EDIT


The Dark Eldar book is a ***-***ing violation of old fluff like nothing I have ever witnessed by GW before.

Such a VAST body of fluff to mercilessly rape :rolleyes: one measly 3rd Ed Codex-pamphlette.
Virtually every other race in 40K has had a wealth of itterations in which to hone the character and feel of the army.


If you're happy with that, but complain about the comparatively quite more modest, and fitting changes Mat Ward did to the Blood Angels such as the Sanguinary Guard/Sanguinor or the alliance-of-exhaustion/respect with the Necrons in one battle (to accommodate the popular reality of double-tournaments in the 40K hobby), your measuring by two standards in the most hypocritical bias possible.

Erm...you may be confusing me with somebody else, I've made no mention of my views on the Blood Angels' Codex in this thread.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 14:50
Isn't that a nonsense comparison though? Don't Blood Angel Dreads alone currently have the option to sport two differing CCW's?
Does anything about a Dread CCW preclude the gaining of an additional attack from a second different CCW? You can't apply Powerfist logic to it.


If later Dreads have similar options should we expect them to have Blood Fists?

Could all of this been solved with simply adding a Caveat in the Furioso Libby Dread entry instead, or even handing over an additional base attack?


It's a pointless distinction that only serves to highlight a rather obvious problem within the book itself.

Nah, the book is fine. The best 5th Edition book yet by a large margin even. Blood Fists were, how did you phrase it, .. an off day!

And why don't Space Wolves have a good ol Iron Halo? Random, no-purpose name-changes were, if anything, invented by Phail Kelly.

AndrewGPaul
07-02-2011, 14:53
The Dark Eldar book is a ***-***ing violation of old fluff like nothing I have ever witnessed by GW before. Cloning? "Soul-leeching"? Vect now a kid of the gutters? Captial Space-Ships crashing into some city.:wtf::wtf::wtf: Gimmie a goddam break. Someone seriously needs to get off the Star Wars Clone Wars TV-series while writing 40K books.

That's not a "violation" :rolleyes:. As I understand it, it's new information. Before then, we didn't know anything about Dark Eldar society or Asdrubael Vect's life before being an Archon.

Mind you, Saturday morning cartoons sounds like the ideal level to aim for with the 40K background. More, please! :D

(and which cartoon did you mean; Clone Wars or The Clone Wars?)

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 14:55
That's not a "violation" :rolleyes:. As I understand it, it's new information. Before then, we didn't know anything about Dark Eldar society or Asdrubael Vect's life before being an Archon.


By that measure, Dante's encounter with the Silent King is simply new information as well, giving new insights into Necron (and BA) behaviour we did not know about previously.

Bartali
07-02-2011, 14:56
I don't get the vitriol directed towards the 5th edition codex writers. Are you all purely judging them on the fluff ? Not really bothered about the rules ? You should try getting a codex written by Jervis :rolleyes:

Bunnahabhain
07-02-2011, 14:58
The Dark Eldar book is a ***-***ing violation of old fluff like nothing I have ever witnessed by GW before. Cloning? "Soul-leeching"? Vect now a kid of the gutters? Captial Space-Ships crashing into some city.:wtf::wtf::wtf: Gimmie a goddam break. Someone seriously needs to get off the Star Wars Clone Wars TV-series while writing 40K books.

If you're happy with that, but complain about the comparatively quite more modest, and fitting changes Mat Ward did to the Blood Angels such as the Sanguinary Guard/Sanguinor or the alliance-of-exhaustion/respect with the Necrons in one battle (to accommodate the popular reality of double-tournaments in the 40K hobby), your measuring by two standards in the most hypocritical bias possible.

Surely the reason so much of the DE background stuff is new is that there was so little DE stuff before,a nd thatt is even compared to other newcomer races- i.e. Tau

The alliance was so bad for one simple reason.
Xenos come in two flavours;
Implacable threats that can never, ever be reasoned with, bargined with etc.: Necrons, Nids, Chaos
Not so implacable threats, that you can bargain with etc, at least in the short term; Tau, Orks, Eldar.

How hard would it have been for the alliance to have been against one of the implacable threats, not with one? To have Marines and Orks unite in killing Nids, say? It's not bad decisions, it is bad decisions that would have taken one seconds though to fix that annoy people.

Repeat 100+ times over in the BA book- fairly much every time the word blood is used, for a start.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 15:02
The alliance was so bad for one simple reason.
Xenos come in two flavours;
Implacable threats that can never, ever be reasoned with, bargined with etc.: Necrons, Nids, Chaos
Not so implacable threats, that you can bargain with etc, at least in the short term; Tau, Orks, Eldar.

How hard would it have been for the alliance to have been against one of the implacable threats, not with one? To have Marines and Orks unite in killing Nids, say? It's not bad decisions, it is bad decisions that would have taken one seconds though to fix that annoy people.

Repeat 100+ times over in the BA book- fairly much every time the word blood is used, for a start.


The problem is, as noted previously, that 40K gamers like to use the armies you classify as "implacable threats" in double-tournaments too. Thats why their fluff needs changing and why Mat Ward deserves all the praise he can get for taking the leap here.

And the Dark Eldar book isn't a Kelly-typcial train-wreck because there was nothing to wreck? Great, I guess I'll file it under "blind chicken" than and hope they never, ever, ever, again let him work on anything with even the smallest inkling of established fluff.

And the repeating excersise? Feel free to do it with the word "Wolf" in Kelly's Magnus Opus. Honestly, these naming conventions for Space Marines strike me as GW-policy, rather than the writers fault. Simply because the phenomenon appears consistent across all writers from Wolves (Kelly), Blood Angels (Ward) and, by everything I have read, soon Grey Knights (Cruddace).

HerrDusty
07-02-2011, 15:02
And why don't Space Wolves have a good ol Iron Halo? Random, no-purpose name-changes were, if anything, invented by Phail Kelly.

If you're referring to the Belt of Russ, it's been around since at least the 3rd edition book, if not before (so it's not Phil Kelly's fault), the Space Wolves just choose to put their personal force fields into belts, rather than Iron Halos. There's at least established fluff to support them having a piece of wargear that does the same thing, but with a different name. Blood Fists are just Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons (the ability to stack with a Force Weapon aside, not sure if they needed a fancy name to do that), and no other army or codex has the need to give them a fancy thematic name. Hell, they don't even look any different.

-Edit

And yes, I agree with you that this is all probably a GW policy rather than any choices on the part of the writers. I personally think Matt Ward writes good rules, I just think his fluff is a bit dodgy.


The problem is, as noted previously, that 40K gamers like to use the armies you classify as "implacable threats" in double-tournaments too. Thats why their fluff needs changing and why Mat Ward deserves all the praise he can get for taking the leap here.

Tournament player's don't need fluff reasons to make unusual team-ups in doubles events. I for one do not see this as anything even like a valid reason to come up with such daft fluff as Necrons and Blood Angels tag teaming Tyranids, then not resuming their fight afterward because of battle weariness and distaste toward turning on your temporary allies. As noble as the Blood Angels are, surely they see the Necrons as a terrible threat to be destroyed wherever they are found? And Necrons, battle weary? they're machines! :wtf:

Chem-Dog
07-02-2011, 15:08
And why don't Space Wolves have a good ol Iron Halo? Random, no-purpose name-changes were, if anything, invented by Phail Kelly.

To be fair, the re-naming of everything the SW's use started with their previous Codex outing, where normal SM's need a Narthecium the SW's just rub a bit of ointment on it.


By that measure, Dante's encounter with the Silent King is simply new information as well, giving new insights into Necron (and BA) behaviour we did not know about previously.

Sorry Zweischneid, you seem to be arguing yourself round in circles, you're the one who bought up Dante/Necron tag teams as an example of how Ward (who you were defending) screwed the fluff and then seem to be arguing it as a good thing...I'm quite, quite lost.:confused:

For what it's worth I don't think the Sanguinor was necessary inclusion, Sanguinary Guard could have been included simply as Honour guard (who have been seperate from the rank and file AND painted gold for quite some time now).

AdamR
07-02-2011, 15:09
And why don't Space Wolves have a good ol Iron Halo? Random, no-purpose name-changes were, if anything, invented by Phail Kelly.

Because Wolves have always had Belts of Russ - certainly back to 3rd edition, possibly back to 2nd, I dont recall - and at least its not called the Wolf Belt, or the Lupine Girdle...

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 15:12
Sorry Zweischneid, you seem to be arguing yourself round in circles, you're the one who bought up Dante/Necron tag teams as an example of how Ward (who you were defending) screwed the fluff and then seem to be arguing it as a good thing...I'm quite, quite lost.:confused:

For what it's worth I don't think the Sanguinor was necessary inclusion, Sanguinary Guard could have been included simply as Honour guard (who have been seperate from the rank and file AND painted gold for quite some time now).

Where did I ever say the Necron-story was a bad thing? I always thought it great.

And likewise do I think DE did not need the whole Wracks, Grotesque, Freak-circus collection of units which neither fits their style and is totally out of place IMO. Not to mention.. *cough* you know Thunder.. *cough* ..wolf.. *cough* ..cavalry!!

HerrDusty
07-02-2011, 15:18
Either Grotesques or Wracks were in the previous Dark Eldar book, just in a different form (I've not read the book, but this I'm pretty sure of). I for one like the whole stitched together monstrosities that the Haemonculi come up with, it fits their calling as mad professors obsessed with fleshcraft and necromancy. To be honest the Dark Eldar had so little fluff previously that I think it's fine that they've been heavily reworked in places, they needed it in some areas to make them a full, interesting army (I couldn't stop reading the fluff in the new codex).

Thunderwolf Cavalry for me are a daft, but somehow still cool idea, I'm waiting on GW to see if they do them in plastic though before I invest in any.

bignbadbum
07-02-2011, 15:20
The problem is, as noted previously, that 40K gamers like to use the armies you classify as "implacable threats" in double-tournaments too. Thats why their fluff needs changing and why Mat Ward deserves all the praise he can get for taking the leap here.

And the Dark Eldar book isn't a Kelly-typcial train-wreck because there was nothing to wreck? Great, I guess I'll file it under "blind chicken" than and hope they never, ever, ever, again let him work on anything with even the smallest inkling of established fluff.

Previously established Dark Eldar fluff before the current codex? Surely you jest? How are they supose to write about something if there is nothing to write about except by forming new fluff that previously never exsisted with which to establish the army's position and attitude. Your right, there was nothing to wreck. So therefore they had to establish new fluff, what do you want them to do? Leave the army book blank except for models and rules?

The fluff may not be well written based on opinion, but saying it is bad because they ruined established fluff is somewhat ridiculous considering there was already next to no fluff on the army.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 15:23
Either Grotesques or Wracks were in the previous Dark Eldar book, just in a different form (I've not read the book, but this I'm pretty sure of). I for one like the whole stitched together monstrosities that the Haemonculi come up with, it fits their calling as mad professors obsessed with fleshcraft and necromancy. To be honest the Dark Eldar had so little fluff previously that I think it's fine that they've been heavily reworked in places, they needed it in some areas to make them a full, interesting army (I couldn't stop reading the fluff in the new codex).


Fair enough, but to me it seems daft. I do, on the other hand, quite like Ward's treatment of the BA's and particular the encounter between Dante and the Silent King.

There is no point in arguing aesthetics, but if you deride one, you shouldn't praise the other.

Chem-Dog
07-02-2011, 15:26
Where did I ever say the Necron-story was a bad thing? I always thought it great.

My bad, I thought you were being sarcastic.

I return you to our scheduled programming.....


Either Grotesques or Wracks were in the previous Dark Eldar book, just in a different form


Grotesques by name, Wracks pretty much by nature.

HerrDusty
07-02-2011, 15:28
It will be interesting to see how GW change the Necron fluff, who knows, they may be changed quite considerably from how they are now, and the whole Dante/Silent King episode might not seem so daft then.

Aren't they supposed to be giving Necron Lords more of a personality? the encounter in the BA book to me doesn't gel with the whole Necrons as silent, unstoppable killing machines as they are portrayed in the current codex, but if they give Lords more personality, it's plausible that the Silent King felt the same distaste as Dante did at turning on his temporary allies so quickly after fighting alongside them, and so they went their own seperate ways.

Gingerwerewolf
07-02-2011, 15:29
I get the impression sometimes that GW writes their rules in this bubble where no one tries to abuse anything and everyone plays nice, friendly games with pretty relaxed lists, all fun and thematic. I imagine this is how GW want their games to be played, but unfortunately the reality is harsher than this and people can and will abuse anything they can.

GW need to learn from this and write their rules to be more watertight and less abuseable.

I agree, however I see your solution as a shame really.

HerrDusty
07-02-2011, 15:32
I agree, however I see your solution as a shame really.

As do I, but it's not like the players are going to change their ways, so GW may as well try to make it harder for them to abuse the game. If they can do it right though (fat chance), it doesn't neccesarily mean making the game any less fun though.

Bunnahabhain
07-02-2011, 15:35
I agree, however I see your solution as a shame really.

I agree.

If you write core rule that are less prone to having units people pull unstoppable 'gotcha' ( massive alpha strikes, turn 1 assults etc) tricks, then the problem goes away.

If you write better balanced codices, then abusing stuff doesn't get you nearly as much of an advantage.

Stricter limits in codices mean you've failed at the top two, which are better solutions,a s they promote better game play naturally

Gingerwerewolf
07-02-2011, 16:17
I agree.

If you write core rule that are less prone to having units people pull unstoppable 'gotcha' ( massive alpha strikes, turn 1 assults etc) tricks, then the problem goes away.

If you write better balanced codices, then abusing stuff doesn't get you nearly as much of an advantage.

Stricter limits in codices mean you've failed at the top two, which are better solutions,a s they promote better game play naturally

Surely though having Codicies abstracted from the main rules by 4th Edition Codecies being used in 5th edition, you are getting that problem exaggerated or made more extreme?

Back on Topic though Im not aware of any new writers. In fact I thought that they were cutting down last year, and thats why Mr Thorpe is now freelance.

Poseidal
07-02-2011, 16:35
RE: Blood Angels and the Necrons.

The Blood Angels recruitment process kills hundreds (if not thousands) of Imperial Subjects. Suffice to say, they don't care much for the life of a human Imperial Subject.

However, not moving to destroy one of their mortal enemies (who will kill Imperial settlements and destroy the Emperor's resources) because it would be 'distasteful' after a brief alliance of convenience is sort of jarring.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 16:39
RE: Blood Angels and the Necrons.

The Blood Angels recruitment process kills hundreds (if not thousands) of Imperial Subjects. Suffice to say, they don't care much for the life of a human Imperial Subject.

However, not moving to destroy one of their mortal enemies (who will kill Imperial settlements and destroy the Emperor's resources) because it would be 'distasteful' after a brief alliance of convenience is sort of jarring.

I disagree. "Mortals" demand no respect from arrogant fighting-machines like a Blood Angel Marine. That a Necron Lord does need not contradict it.

In any case, far less jarring than Dark Eldar suddenly turning into clone-troopers lead by Asdrubael Skywalker from his humble beginnings with is I will ****-you-over special rule.

Poseidal
07-02-2011, 16:46
So in effect, the Blood Angels are fighting for the Necrons?

Vect always had humble beginnings. The early fluff before has him as a sacrificial slave in his recount, the fact that he was a slave for a bit later before planning his rise doesn't contradict that.

They aren't explicitly clones either, just grown in vats where the parents don't have the luxury of raising children, which considering Commorite culture (both represented before and after) makes sense.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 16:48
So in effect, the Blood Angels are fighting for the Necrons?


Where does it say that? Have a quote/source?

Earthbeard
07-02-2011, 16:48
I disagree. "Mortals" demand no respect from arrogant fighting-machines like a Blood Angel Marine. That a Necron Lord does need not contradict it.

In any case, far less jarring than Dark Eldar suddenly turning into clone-troopers lead by Asdrubael Skywalker from his humble beginnings with is I will ****-you-over special rule.

Take off the blinkers, it's shocking how much you can see without them.

I'll leave you to carry on your passive/agressive trolling, toodle pip.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 16:54
Take off the blinkers, it's shocking how much you can see without them.

I'll leave you to carry on your passive/agressive trolling, toodle pip.

Wait? Let me get this right. I am passive/agressive trolling but this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5294094&postcount=2), this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5294126&postcount=4), this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5294140&postcount=8) and this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5294544&postcount=19) is not?

Riiiiiight.....:wtf:

Poseidal
07-02-2011, 17:01
Where does it say that? Have a quote/source?

It's not stated outright, but they have been demonstrated to value Necron 'life' over that of their own potential recruits for instance.

This is a force known for unrelentingly attacking Imperial assets and destroying all life of those they attack.

If the 'mortal' Imperial Subjects are below the Blood Angels to protect, while the life of a one-time 'ally' Xenos (known to wipe out Imperial assets) is worth keeping safe, who are they fighting for? What are they defending?

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 17:05
It's not stated outright, but they have been demonstrated to value Necron 'life' over that of their own potential recruits for instance.

This is a force known for unrelentingly attacking Imperial assets and destroying all life of those they attack.

If the 'mortal' Imperial Subjects are below the Blood Angels to protect, while the life of a one-time 'ally' Xenos (known to wipe out Imperial assets) is worth keeping safe, who are they fighting for? What are they defending?

They didn't form a 1000-year alliance with them. They parted with a grudging respect for each other momentarely after coming through alive of a Hive Fleet attack. At no point does it state that Blood Angels would hestiate to defend Imperial assets if threatend. All marines have been known to "ally" with Xenos at one point or another. Sometimes war happens to includes "strategic alliances", sometimes over long times, sometimes only for a few moments as in this case.

Spiney Norman
07-02-2011, 17:10
Cruddace is primary on the next release with some of the new writers cutting teeth. So far as I know.

Interesting, rumours on the fantasy section say cruddace is writing WFB Tomb Kings at the moment, is he working on two concurrent projects for different systems?


What book did you read? The Swarmlord almost kills Calgar and there is a fighting retreat as his Honor Guard drag him off.

And the fight with the Avatar was Calgar vs. Avatar down to one wound. It had been shot up and abused before Calgar got to it. That fight was the equivalent of kicking a crippled old man.

Have you actually read the offending piece? There is no mention of how many wounds either was down to. The Avatar goes to decapitate Calgar with the Wailing Doom, Calgar catches the mighty blade of destruction with his glove and punches the avatar down. Thats a bit like deflecting a direct hit from a Dark lance off your shiny helmet, because, you know, its extra-shiny.

They just don't make Wailing Dooms like they used to...

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 17:14
Have you actually read the offending piece? There is no mention of how many wounds either was down to. The Avatar goes to decapitate Calgar with the Wailing Doom, Calgar catches the mighty blade of destruction with his glove and punches the avatar down. Thats a bit like deflecting a direct hit from a Dark lance off your shiny helmet.

They just don't make Wailing Dooms like they used to...

Did you read the Avatar piece. It states fairly quickly that the Avatar was going for the coup-de-grace and that NOTHING known to the Imperium could have halted that blade but the Dark-Age-of-Technology-artifact-gauntlets passed down to Calgar. If Eldar get the magic-trinket-sword, why shouldn't Marines get a magic-trinket-glove to cancel it. There is certainly no "inferiour" quality in a piece of writing that gives Calgar a magic glove than there is in the writing that gave the good old always-angry-all-the-time-tin-man a cut-everything-magic sword in the first place.

Poseidal
07-02-2011, 17:20
Because the Avatar is so much bigger, as a monstrous creature.

The Gauntlets being strong enough wouldn't have stopped Calgar being launched off his feet, or the gauntlets coming off at the weakest joint, along with his arms.

Especially in the context that the Avatar had just shrugged off and/or dispatched a bunch of TH/SS Terminators and Lascannon shots.

Zweischneid
07-02-2011, 17:27
Because the Avatar is so much bigger, as a monstrous creature.

The Gauntlets being strong enough wouldn't have stopped Calgar being launched off his feet, or the gauntlets coming off at the weakest joint, along with his arms.

Especially in the context that the Avatar had just shrugged off and/or dispatched a bunch of TH/SS Terminators and Lascannon shots.

What? You're comparing game-stats now? Re-roll to wound powerfists certainly hit as hard, if not harder than Thunderhammers or Lascannons. Without a doubt harder than a S6 Avatar. No discrepancy here. And size differences are the meat of heroic stories. Certainly this is nothing compared to .. say.. Straken taking out a Landshark from inside or all the ridiculously outlandish stuff pulled by .. say.. Maugan Ra. If stuff like this offends you, 40K certainly sounds like the wrong game/universe for you.

Hell, Maugan Ra defeats a Tyranid Swarm SINGLE-HANDIDLY (!!!!) and you complain about Blood Angels and Necrons forming a forced, temporary alliance of survival that leads to a passing, grudging acknowledgement of martial skill.

kargenetic
07-02-2011, 17:30
Back on Topic though Im not aware of any new writers. In fact I thought that they were cutting down last year, and thats why Mr Thorpe is now freelance.

Hey guys, all very interesting, but this is the sort of thing I was hoping to hear. Does anyone know about this sort of thing?

Spiney Norman
07-02-2011, 22:40
Did you read the Avatar piece. It states fairly quickly that the Avatar was going for the coup-de-grace and that NOTHING known to the Imperium could have halted that blade but the Dark-Age-of-Technology-artifact-gauntlets passed down to Calgar. If Eldar get the magic-trinket-sword, why shouldn't Marines get a magic-trinket-glove to cancel it. There is certainly no "inferiour" quality in a piece of writing that gives Calgar a magic glove than there is in the writing that gave the good old always-angry-all-the-time-tin-man a cut-everything-magic sword in the first place.

I'm sorry dude, but if Mr Ward can't come up with anything better than "magic gloves" to stop the incarnation of the Eldar god of war then he needs an imagination transplant, this is 40K, not D&D, there is a wealth of background material that really ought to be respected rather than trampled over in an attempt to make your latest character look 1337! I can just imagine the last thought to go through the Avatar's mind - " Oh great, I would have to pick the only git in the whole frickin' Imperium with those damn magic gloves..."

I guess we just have different ideas on how much strain can be placed on the background material before it falls apart, and I have a somewhat depressing feeling that Mr Ward's next marine codex will include a battle where the chapter master single handedly kills a C'tan, or even a Chaos god.

There are those of us who still believe that there are things in the 40K universe that should be able to defeat even a space marine chapter master, apparently Eldar Avatars are now off that list.

Stickmonkey
07-02-2011, 22:48
Interesting, rumours on the fantasy section say cruddace is writing WFB Tomb Kings at the moment, is he working on two concurrent projects for different systems?

The GK dex has been done for some time. It's already been/being printed. So he very well could be working on TK for WFB. All I know is they had some new writers/interns working with him on it last year. How much they were apprenticing versus copy writing...who knows. But given our track record of GW's typos, my guess would be more the former than later.

Speaking of WFB, with the O&G book rumored to be coming out hardcover next month, I've been peppered about whether we will see the same treatment in 40k. I don't know. Strongly suspect it might be something looked at once 6E is released, but a lot will depend on all the other influencing factors in the business. But I don't have any insight whatsoever here, that is all just my best guess.

Bunnahabhain
07-02-2011, 22:55
There are those of us who still believe that there are things in the 40K universe that should be able to defeat even a space marine chapter master, apparently Eldar Avatars are now off that list.

Heavy weapons fire has long been the answer to this that dare not speak it's name.

You charge forwards with a squad to take on a whole army in heroic combat? Fine.
Just use some supporting fire to take out the enemy big guns first, or don't be surprised when you get to blown to little bits, fancy armour or not.

Hellebore
07-02-2011, 23:41
Did you read the Avatar piece. It states fairly quickly that the Avatar was going for the coup-de-grace and that NOTHING known to the Imperium could have halted that blade but the Dark-Age-of-Technology-artifact-gauntlets passed down to Calgar. If Eldar get the magic-trinket-sword, why shouldn't Marines get a magic-trinket-glove to cancel it. There is certainly no "inferiour" quality in a piece of writing that gives Calgar a magic glove than there is in the writing that gave the good old always-angry-all-the-time-tin-man a cut-everything-magic sword in the first place.

And an oven mit will protect my hand from a hot oven tray, it won't help much when said tray is coming down over my head with a force measured in hundreds of thousands of newtons.

Those gloves give calgar a lot of damage potential, but they don't give him a reinforced spine or legs, nor do they make him capable of supporting the weight of a tank over his head.

There is no issue with having magical technology gloves resist the damage of a a magical warp sword (although regardless of how much people keep pushing this whole 'dark age of technology' angle, they still act, look and work like a power fist), the issue is whether a human could catch a weapon swung by a creature three times their size.

Your argument would have gretchin catching chapter master swords on the downswing so long as their hands were protected from damage.

Except that it only applies in some subjective fashion you've invented yourself whereby the position something holds within its army dictates its physical properties...:rolleyes:

Hellebore

LonelyPath
08-02-2011, 00:51
Because Wolves have always had Belts of Russ - certainly back to 3rd edition, possibly back to 2nd, I dont recall - and at least its not called the Wolf Belt, or the Lupine Girdle...

Aye, very true and IIRC the Wolftails and so on appeared in 2nd edition.

As for the Lupine Girdle, I think you answered the eternal question as to exactly how the chubbier Sisters of Battle manage to squeeze into their power armour ;)

Personally, the love/hate relationship and opinions we gamers have with the codex designers is truly down to basic personal preference. I'm a fan of Kelly's books in general, but I did grown at some of the "wolf" things in the current SW codex, same as I did later with Ward's BA by seemingly having to squeeze the word "blood" about 3 or 4 times onto every page (I know it's not THAT bad, but it seems it).

If you want travesties in 5th edition codices, look at Crudance for both IG which he admitted to being a fan of and it turns out to be a very good book, though some internal balance issues and Nids, which he even stated in WD that he had very little interest in and the codex reflects it. It is as bad as Ward's "every marine is dying to be a Smurf" but worse since it not only effects the fluff, but the actual tabletop abilities and strength of the army as a whole. Not saying that Nids are a weak army since mine win pretty often, but it made the book much harder to get to grips with. Thankfully it seems to have avoided most attempts for power gaming with it :)

ehlijen
08-02-2011, 01:13
the issue is whether a human could catch a weapon swung by a creature three times their size.


No. The issue is whether a bionic 6 million dollar hercules armed with magic artefact gloves and clad in strength enhancing super armour can catch a weapon swung by a creature three times his size.

Calgar is not a human. He was slightly more than just a human before he was genetically modified far beyond his natural limits, stuffed in super armour, given high tech tools fo death and then having major parts of his body rebuilt using the finest bionics available. And he still almost lost to the avatar.

This was not a man vs god fight. It was a demigod and his army vs almost god fight.

Hellebore
08-02-2011, 01:20
Belts of russ and wolf tail talismans as items existed in 3rd ed. The tails were on models in 2nd ed, but they didn't exist as an item with a name until the 3rd ed codex.

Going back to 2nd ed you see that there were fewer unit/wargear types in general, so having a few campy names didn't really become that noticable. Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers, whirlwinds, cyclone missile launcher. That was the extend of marine campy names in 2nd ed.

But alongside the need for new things to sell, they needed more unit names. But they decided they needed thematic names. Unfortunately that meant scraping the bottom of an already almost empty barrel.

My personal pet hate was the Shadowsword superheavy tank model. To increase sales they invented a whole swathe of new vehicles that were literally just a different configuration of the 3 barrel components of the volcano cannon.

And thus were invented the Doomhammer, Banesword, Banehammer and Stormsword...:eyebrows:

Then we get the 'devil dog' and 'banewolf' as names for different 'hellhound' weapon options, just you know, to stay in theme. :rolleyes: I mean really, there's a point at which you have to bend over so far backwards to stay in theme the theme itself just looks stupid.

EDIT:

No. The issue is whether a bionic 6 million dollar hercules armed with magic artefact gloves and clad in strength enhancing super armour can catch a weapon swung by a creature three times his size.

Calgar is not a human. He was slightly more than just a human before he was genetically modified far beyond his natural limits, stuffed in super armour, given high tech tools fo death and then having major parts of his body rebuilt using the finest bionics available. And he still almost lost to the avatar.

This was not a man vs god fight. It was a demigod and his army vs almost god fight.

You're really going to use that argument Ehlijen? I didn't think you would, of all people. Space marine muscle is objectively described as simply denser HUMAN muscle (see creation of a space marine). No magical muscle, just more human muscle. A space marine has NEVER been the physical equal of a greater daemon, EVER. Not in background OR rules. Calling a space marine a 'demigod' doesn't make them the equal of a greater daemon, otherwise any literary device used to add emphasis or to make something 'cool' becomes a literal description and we get into all sorts of silliness.

Space marines are still made of meat and that meat has been explicitly stated as being human. They have better blood clotting, denser muscle tissue, but that's still better HUMAN blood clotting and better HUMAN muscle tissue.

So no matter how much people try to make the literary expression 'demigod' or 'superhuman' into literal terms with objective values, they are still not the equal of greater daemons. Your argument would have marneus calgar win in an arm wrestle with a greater daemon, because stopping the full force of a downward swing from something larger and stronger is much harder than trying to arm wrestle said creature.

If you think that a single space marine is the equal physically of a greater daemon then you are going against the two decades of background produced. I feel sorry for all the grey knights that get slaughtered taking on greater daemons then, because no one told them they could do it solo (even easier for them as they're specifically designed to fight daemons).

A greater daemon is made of magic and there are no precedents or measures for which we can compare that. Calgar is beholden to the human metric he is built from. The warp bypases reality and physics. A greater daemon is larger, stronger, more resilient and all around superior physically to a space marine.

If GW starts making single space marines the match for a greater daemon then they have jumped the Charcharodon more thoroughly than I would have deemed possible.

Hellebore

Born Again
08-02-2011, 03:04
Please people, stop feeding the troll! At this point it's better to just walk away, it's arguing for the sake of arguing.

Sparowl
08-02-2011, 06:03
To the OP: I really think the three you named are the only writers nowadays. Honestly, though, looking at what they offer to pay, and what the requirements for the jobs are, I doubt they get many applications.


If you think that a single space marine is the equal physically of a greater daemon then you are going against the two decades of background produced. I feel sorry for all the grey knights that get slaughtered taking on greater daemons then, because no one told them they could do it solo (even easier for them as they're specifically designed to fight daemons).

Hellebore

No, no, that would be silly. A single Grey Knight can't kill Greater Daemons single handedly.

What do you think they are? Ultramarines?

Cause they absolutely can defeat Greater Daemons single handedly. Remember, they're the best!!!1! of the all the Space Marines!!!1!

Azzy
08-02-2011, 06:39
A) Don't bring anything approaching physics into 40K. Tyranid Hierophant. End of story.

B) The cartooniness of 40K started in Rouge Trader, wore especially loud clothing in 2nd edition, went public in 3rd ed., continued unabated in 4th ed., and is nothing freaking new in 5th edition. C'mon chainswords and power fists and space elves for crying out loud! At what point did any of you think that was anything different than He-Man and the Masters of the Universe with a dark sense of humor and some social satire thrown in? Really?!?

ehlijen
08-02-2011, 07:18
You're really going to use that argument Ehlijen? I didn't think you would, of all people. Space marine muscle is objectively described as simply denser HUMAN muscle (see creation of a space marine). No magical muscle, just more human muscle. A space marine has NEVER been the physical equal of a greater daemon, EVER. Not in background OR rules. Calling a space marine a 'demigod' doesn't make them the equal of a greater daemon, otherwise any literary device used to add emphasis or to make something 'cool' becomes a literal description and we get into all sorts of silliness.

Space marines are still made of meat and that meat has been explicitly stated as being human. They have better blood clotting, denser muscle tissue, but that's still better HUMAN blood clotting and better HUMAN muscle tissue.

So no matter how much people try to make the literary expression 'demigod' or 'superhuman' into literal terms with objective values, they are still not the equal of greater daemons. Your argument would have marneus calgar win in an arm wrestle with a greater daemon, because stopping the full force of a downward swing from something larger and stronger is much harder than trying to arm wrestle said creature.

If you think that a single space marine is the equal physically of a greater daemon then you are going against the two decades of background produced. I feel sorry for all the grey knights that get slaughtered taking on greater daemons then, because no one told them they could do it solo (even easier for them as they're specifically designed to fight daemons).

A greater daemon is made of magic and there are no precedents or measures for which we can compare that. Calgar is beholden to the human metric he is built from. The warp bypases reality and physics. A greater daemon is larger, stronger, more resilient and all around superior physically to a space marine.

If GW starts making single space marines the match for a greater daemon then they have jumped the Charcharodon more thoroughly than I would have deemed possible.

Hellebore

We're not talking space marines, we're talking one of the best space marines ever. And why is he 'beholden' to physics and human metrics and what not? He's part super robot in addition to wearing strength enhancing armour and he has the blood of a primarch flowing through him, which in turns comes from the emperor, who apparently while 90% dead can still keep the entire eye of chaos at bay. And he's wearing magic gauntlets. Why can't he be allowed to have a little magic on his side?

It's a classic hero story (ancient greece had plenty of those). The champion of mankind takes on an arguably superior foe, but unusual strength and resolve allows him to overcome the arrogant beast and triumph.

Zweischneid
08-02-2011, 08:01
I'm sorry dude, but if Mr Ward can't come up with anything better than "magic gloves" to stop the incarnation of the Eldar god of war then he needs an imagination transplant, this is 40K, not D&D, there is a wealth of background material that really ought to be respected rather than trampled over in an attempt to make your latest character look 1337! I.


How did he trample over the background with a magic glove if it's the same very background that starts out with an angry tin-man and his magic-sword to begin with. If 40K is not supposed to be D&D, blame Rick Priestly or whoever started that dim-wit Avatar with his magic slicer in the first place. Not to mention that Calgar had his power-gloves long before Ward took up the pen.

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 09:25
@ ehlijen

Are you implying Calgar is a daemon prince or gifted like they are in Chaos?

EDIT: To add, the way the Gauntlets were added were very much Deus Ex Machina in the way it was put in, considering how the Avatar shrugged off Thunder Hammers and Lascannons in the paragraph before.

HOWEVER: They are the gauntlets of a Chaos Champion taken. Maybe they weren't so 'purified' after all and this was a very clever Checkov's Gun?

Zweischneid
08-02-2011, 09:34
@ ehlijen

Are you implying Calgar is a daemon prince or gifted like they are in Chaos?

EDIT: To add, the way the Gauntlets were added were very much Deus Ex Machina in the way it was put in, considering how the Avatar shrugged off Thunder Hammers and Lascannons in the paragraph before.

HOWEVER: They are the gauntlets of a Chaos Champion taken. Maybe they weren't so 'purified' after all and this was a very clever Checkov's Gun?

Ever heard of dramatic narrative? Would you have preferred to have the Avatar go down to a random Lascannon shot by some unnamed Devastator? Or trip over a anti-super-heavy-tank mine and blow to pieces? Clearly you would perhaps be better off playing FoW. 40K is a game of heroic, cinematic action, that is what Ehlijen is implying, and Calgar vs. the Avatar is a clash of heroic proportions, of Hercules vs. the Hydra, of Odysseus vs. the Cyclops, of St. George vs. the Dragon, etc.. ..

I am not sure where you're reading a Chaos reference in this. Please provide a source and quote if you do.

Thalenchar
08-02-2011, 09:38
*wonders if it might be mentally impossible for (us) warseerites to go off topic in a thread to do with GW writers* And almost right off the bat as well...

OT: I have no idea who else is writing for GW, but I think it's not a bad thing if they would have some more people who could (help with) doing some of the rewriting of the older books. There's still about half a dozen 40k books to be brought into 5th proper, not to mention most, if not all, the books in Fantasy too.
More writers = more books written sooner? Or is that just me applying logic too liberally?

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 09:49
I am not sure where you're reading a Chaos reference in this. Please provide a source and quote if you do.
It's simple deduction from what we know:

(1) The Avatar's power comes from the Warp, the stuff of Chaos though channelled through in his own way (being deity of a sort himself).

(2) For the Magic Gauntlets to be literally magic, they have to be the same.

(3) We have nothing stating they are warded by Ordo Malleus or anything like that, furthermore, they are stated to be taken by Roboute from a defeated Chaos Champion (which is unusual as that's more of a Wolf thing, but what's written is written) in the 2nd edition Codex at least.

(A) With this knowledge, the simplest explanation is the Gauntlet are still powered by the ruinous powers to be able to be able to keep his arms in their sockets like that from a strike coming from a greater daemon.

(B) There is no evidence of any other source, and it's the simplest viable explanation without adding anything to the pre-existing material (ie fanfiction).


40K is a game of heroic, cinematic action



To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of those times. It is a universe you can live in today - if you dare - for this is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort or hope. If you want to take part in the adventure then prepare yourself now. Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods.

But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed...

ORKY ARD BOYZ
08-02-2011, 09:56
Ever heard of dramatic narrative? Would you have preferred to have the Avatar go down to a random Lascannon shot by some unnamed Devastator? Or trip over a anti-super-heavy-tank mine and blow to pieces? Clearly you would perhaps be better off playing FoW. 40K is a game of heroic, cinematic action, that is what Ehlijen is implying, and Calgar vs. the Avatar is a clash of heroic proportions, of Hercules vs. the Hydra, of Odysseus vs. the Cyclops, of St. George vs. the Dragon, etc.. ..

I am not sure where you're reading a Chaos reference in this. Please provide a source and quote if you do.

I think most people are fine with heroic, cinematic action (I know I am) but as long as its portrayed in a suitably believable fashion that doesn't break their suspension of disbelief.

Besides, I don't particularly see Calgar's catch of the Avatar's sword to be particularly the stuff of legends. It's hardly grim dark if we have chapter masters that can stand in the way of Eldar demigods. The Imperium should have reconquered the galaxy at this point if it was so.

Zweischneid
08-02-2011, 09:58
It's simple deduction from what we know:

(1) The Avatar's power comes from the Warp, the stuff of Chaos though channelled through in his own way (being deity of a sort himself).

(2) For the Magic Gauntlets to be literally magic, they have to be the same.


That is stupid. So a random ex-machina I-can-cut-everything-sword is OK as long as said ex-machina is explained by "it's the Warp dude", but I-cannot-be-cut-gloves are not OK unless they stick the same "it's the Warp dude" explanation to it? That is really the difference that is needed? Seriously? Come on, "the Warp" is just as much a cop-out as "it's from the future" or "it's magic" or "it's crafted by some god of the smithers".



(3) We have nothing stating they are warded by Ordo Malleus or anything like that, furthermore, they are stated to be taken by Roboute from a defeated Chaos Champion (which is unusual as that's more of a Wolf thing, but what's written is written) in the 2nd edition Codex at least.


It's written in the 4th Edition Codex too, by Pete Haines & Graham McNeill, where it also states that "No one has been able to penetrate the thick adamantine shell of the fists to study the workings inside. While not in use, the Gauntlets are stored within a crystal case at the Fortress of Hera, inside the Temple of Correction's "Shrine of the Great Primarch". The 'Gauntlets of Ultramar' are only worn by Marneus Calgar, the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.". So again, their "impenetrability" has been pre-established. Mat Ward simply used pre-existing fluff to write a story.




(A) With this knowledge, the simplest explanation is the Gauntlet are still powered by the ruinous powers to be able to be able to keep his arms in their sockets like that from a strike coming from a greater daemon.


The simplest explanation? This must not be the true explanation. Also, I know of now other Chaos artifact with like or similar powers. For all I know, most Chaos Artifacts/Weapons known are of a more offensive capability, not to mention no gauntlet has ever been among them.



(B) There is no evidence of any other source, and it's the simplest viable explanation without adding anything to the pre-existing material (ie fanfiction).

It is simply the property of the gauntlets. There doesn't need to be an explanation, especially considering that "it's Chaos" is no explanation either, but a renamed ex-machina "it's magic" taken to the 40K universe.

Zweischneid
08-02-2011, 09:59
I think most people are fine with heroic, cinematic action (I know I am) but as long as its portrayed in a suitably believable fashion that doesn't break their suspension of disbelief.

Besides, I don't particularly see Calgar's catch of the Avatar's sword to be particularly the stuff of legends. It's hardly grim dark if we have chapter masters that can stand in the way of Eldar demigods. The Imperium should have reconquered the galaxy at this point if it was so.

Why not? What makes Eldar demigods so special that they should auto-defeat one of the greatest heroes (and not some random Chapter Master either) of the Imperium wielding the weapon of a Primarch?

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 10:11
That is stupid. So a random ex-machina I-can-cut-everything-sword is OK as long as said ex-machina is explained by "it's the Warp dude", but I-cannot-be-cut-gloves are not OK unless they stick the same "it's the Warp dude" explanation to it? That is really the difference that is needed? Seriously? Come on, "the Warp" is just as much a cop-out as "it's from the future" or "it's magic" or "it's crafted by some god of the smithers".

First off, that's not ex-machina but the backbone of the entire setting. The Warp is responsible for:

FTL Space Travel for almost every race in the Galaxy
Psykers
The Emperor
The corruption of the Primarchs and the Horus Heresy
The Fall of the Eldar
Seclusion of races (e.g. Tau)
Mutations beyond the basic genetic
Most Teleportation Technology
Etc.. (there are more examples that don't come to mind immediately)

In setting mechanics terms, it's internally consistent and makes sense. It has been around since the start, is still used and the entire setting more or less revolves around it.

It also binds all races by it's rules; the only ones exempt are the C'Tan and Necrons, who waged war against it in effect and are threatened by it's presence.


It's written in the 4th Edition Codex too, by Pete Haines & Graham McNeill, where it also states that "No one has been able to penetrate the thick adamantine shell of the fists to study the workings inside. While not in use, the Gauntlets are stored within a crystal case at the Fortress of Hera, inside the Temple of Correction's "Shrine of the Great Primarch". The 'Gauntlets of Ultramar' are only worn by Marneus Calgar, the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.". So again, their "impenetrability" has been pre-established. Mat Ward simply used pre-existing fluff to write a story.

Adamantine has been stated to be not as tough as Wraithbone. Secondly, all it says is no one has broken it open to see the insides of it; there are only two explainations:

(1) Admech do not want to risk breaking it, so they don't. It is stated to be made of Adamantite; this is a KNOWN material to them with known properties - they could break it with the correct tools and are unwilling as it's more valuable unbroken.

(2) Something supernatural (ie Magic / Warp based) stops them from breaking it with their own tools (which can be made of the same, known material)

Zweischneid
08-02-2011, 10:17
First off, that's not ex-machina but the backbone of the entire setting. The Warp is responsible for:

FTL Space Travel for almost every race in the Galaxy
Psykers
The Emperor
The corruption of the Primarchs and the Horus Heresy
The Fall of the Eldar
Seclusion of races (e.g. Tau)
Mutations beyond the basic genetic
Most Teleportation Technology
Etc.. (there are more examples that don't come to mind immediately)

In setting mechanics terms, it's internally consistent and makes sense. It has been around since the start, is still used and the entire setting more or less revolves around it.

It also binds all races by it's rules; the only ones exempt are the C'Tan and Necrons, who waged war against it in effect and are threatened by it's presence.


Adamantine has been stated to be not as tough as Wraithbone. Secondly, all it says is no one has broken it open to see the insides of it; there are only two explainations:

(1) Admech do not want to risk breaking it, so they don't. It is stated to be made of Adamantite; this is a KNOWN material to them with known properties - they could break it with the correct tools and are unwilling as it's more valuable unbroken.

(2) Something supernatural (ie Magic / Warp based) stops them from breaking it with their own tools (which can be made of the same, known material)

By all means... if explaining Calgar's gauntlets by ex-machina-warp-magic helps you see 40K in ways that it appears "internally consistent and makes sense" (muhahahahahahahahahahah!), go for it.

IMO, it never made sense by trying to fit it through some "warped" alternate-universe physics. 40K only makes sense in the way an action movie makes sense.. always has been that way (which, btw, doesn't contradict the "grimdark" setting as a backdrop for heroic action.. which has a long tradition in heroic fantasy/sci-fantasy > the bleaker the world, the more illustrious the heroics of the "great individuals" that duke it out with glowing swords before suitably grimdark-gothic ruins highlighted by the blood-red light of the setting sun).

Gingerwerewolf
08-02-2011, 13:44
Erm Topic anyone?

Can anyone list the current writers, both Fantasy and 40k ofArmy Books or Codecies? That might help with the OPs Question

AlphariusOmegon20
08-02-2011, 16:11
And why don't Space Wolves have a good ol Iron Halo? Random, no-purpose name-changes were, if anything, invented by Phail Kelly.


If you're referring to the Belt of Russ, it's been around since at least the 3rd edition book, if not before (so it's not Phil Kelly's fault), the Space Wolves just choose to put their personal force fields into belts, rather than Iron Halos.

The Belt of Russ was created by guess who and when? Jervis Johnson, Andy Chambers and Gav Thorpe in 2000. If anything , Zweischneid should be complaining about the Iron Halo being a cheap aftercopy of the Belt of Russ.

But then that would require he would actually know what he's talking about.

Spiney Norman
08-02-2011, 16:29
This was not a man vs god fight. It was a demigod and his army vs almost god fight.

Aha, so chapter masters have now been awarded "demi-god" status, if the Emperor had the ability to care about such things I'm sure he'd judge that to be an abominable heresy.

Egads those traitor primarchs that traded away their humanity in order to become demon-princes must be kicking themselves when they discovered that demi-godhood could have been theirs so much more easily if only they'd thought to set up their own chapter...

I'm sorry that when I think of uber-powerful beings that can wipe out the universes most powerful monsters with ease my mind doesn't immediately think of space marine bosses with magic gloves.

Castigator
08-02-2011, 16:35
Aha, so chapter masters have now been awarded "demi-god" status, if the Emperor had the ability to care about such things I'm sure he'd judge that to be an abominable heresy.

Egads those traitor primarchs that traded away their humanity in order to become demon-princes must be kicking themselves when they discovered that demi-godhood could have been theirs so much more easily if only they'd thought to set up their own chapter...

I'm sorry that when I think of uber-powerful beings that can wipe out the universes most powerful monsters with ease my mind doesn't immediately think of space marine bosses with magic gloves.

I don't think the status "demi-god" needs to be awarded, or does infact mean anything other than "classical hero".

What is the difference between Calgar (a mostly-bionic-man clad in impenetrable metal with a magic glove) and the Avatar (a piece of molten slack clad in impenetrable metal with a magic sword)? The fact that Space Elves like to sing kumbahayaa when they see the latter?

I am sure many less-than-literate citizens of the empire consider Chapter Masters, or even regular Space Marines, to be demigods, perhaps even full-blown gods on planets where the Ecclesiarchy isn't watching too closely. It's not that far fetched I think.

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 16:40
The difference is that the setting and spoken by the omniscient narrator:

The Avatar really is literally a fragment of a real 'war god', who once strode amongst his now-fallen pantheon.

Marneus Calgar is ultimately (despite his greatness) just a mortal man with some cool gear.

Castigator
08-02-2011, 16:43
The difference is that the setting and spoken by the omniscient narrator:

The Avatar really is literally a fragment of a real 'war god', who once strode amongst his now-fallen pantheon.

Marneus Calgar is ultimately (despite his greatness) just a mortal man with some cool gear.

EDIT: The above is obvious from the background; I'm not actually sure the post I responded to was serious or not now.

And? Calgar is a real "God of War" too (and not just a fragment either). And Avatars have always been mortal too (as have war gods in 40K, otherwise there wouldn't be fragments of them). I still fail to see the distinction. There're plenty of "Gods" in 40K, both on the table and in the fiction that have gotten a solid beating. The term "God", to my knowledge, doesn't imply immortality or unbeatable martial skills by any means.

EDIT: And I guess it is half-serious, but "(heroic-)man-besting-(half-)god" is not an unknown narrative in heroic fiction or (sci-) fantasy; especially if we consider multitheistic phantheons like the 40K-universe.

Bloodknight
08-02-2011, 16:45
If anything , Zweischneid should be complaining about the Iron Halo being a cheap aftercopy of the Belt of Russ.

Yeah, the Iron Halo used to be the rank badge of an SM corporal that had no effect whatsowever, it was usually painted on the armor (or usually worn by corporals. It's in 2nd ed. Ultramarines, but I can't check ATM).

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 16:54
And? Calgar is a real "God of War" too (and not just a fragment either). And Avatars have always been mortal too (as have war gods in 40K, otherwise there wouldn't be fragments of them). I still fail to see the distinction. There're plenty of "Gods" in 40K, both on the table and in the fiction that have gotten a solid beating. The term "God", to my knowledge, doesn't imply immortality or unbeatable martial skills by any means.

The Avatar is an Avatar of Khaine, a Warp Entity. He has a different set of rules to the normal denizens of the Galaxy in 40k, and follows the rules more similar to the likes of Khorne, Tzeentch and pals. Functionally, the Avatar behaves like a Greater Daemon.

Referring to 'mortal', Calgar is still an ordinary man. He has no supernatural powers (unless he has chaos gloves), and is bound by the laws of the physics in the 40k universe. He does not have greater daemons and cannot split off a part of his power/himself in to lesser version.

His 'God of War' rule is used either as a literary term or was just badly thought through.

x-esiv-4c
08-02-2011, 16:58
It it's Ward expect the following:

1). Grey-Knights aspire to one day be Ultramarines because they are the best and ultimate chapter evar.

2). 300 Grey-knights, lead by Brother Leoniadadas fought a bazquillion Perzhunite cultists and won.

3). Brother Captain Greygar is Calgar's brother and aspires to be him.

Castigator
08-02-2011, 17:03
The Avatar is an Avatar of Khaine, a Warp Entity. He has a different set of rules to the normal denizens of the Galaxy in 40k, and follows the rules more similar to the likes of Khorne, Tzeentch and pals. Functionally, the Avatar behaves like a Greater Daemon.

Referring to 'mortal', Calgar is still an ordinary man. He has no supernatural powers (unless he has chaos gloves), and is bound by the laws of the physics in the 40k universe. He does not have greater daemons and cannot split off a part of his power/himself in to lesser version.

His 'God of War' rule is used either as a literary term or was just badly thought through.

Again, "Warp Entities" get pounded all the time in the 40K universe. They are not immune to knifes and bullets; from tiny nurglings all the way up to Tzeentch and Khorne themselves, nothing I know ever states that they could shrug off physical damage or prevent their death.

Given, some of those are more powerful than others, with the Avatar or Greater Daemons playing in the "more-powerful" league. But it is the logic of heroic sci-fantasy narratives, that such beings are dramatically overcome by heroic mortals; mortals moreover who are often "gifted" or "blessed" with a specific item or weapon that allows or assists them in their "heroic deed".

As such, the Calgar-vs.-Avatar story is in the strong tradition of epic tales and pulp-fantasy where heroes go out to slay dragons, krakens, daemons or balrogs, etc.. . Indeed, the very point of inventing "scary things" like these in a heroic fiction (or wargame) is so they can be overcome by the protagonist. If something is unbeatable, it would serve no point in a story (or wargame). If Avatars were unkillable, than they shouldn't be in the fluff (much less the game), because writing about (or playing with) something that cannot be killed in a story (game) about bloody conflict is a rather mute point.

It is the very fact that they achived something implausible, or "against the odds", that makes heroes heroic in the first place (think of Maugan Ra and his "deeds").

Torpedo Vegas
08-02-2011, 17:13
Doesn't Calgar have robotic arms and legs?
I'm surprised n one has brought up the bit in Fulgrim where Fulrgim strangles an Avatar to death.

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 17:17
When it's done, you'd rather it be written well though, and plausible?

'Epic' isn't the word I'd use to describe that fight.

I have under no circumstances said it would be unbeatable. But the way it was written is just not plausible (unless Calgar had the ruinous powers on his side); it would be better if he had not gone into detail and left the throwaway line that the Avatar was defeated.

Castigator
08-02-2011, 17:17
Doesn't Calgar have robotic arms and legs?


He did back in Rogue Trader days when Ultramarines also had a half-Eldar Librarian, Maccragge was a dust planet, Ultramarines a second-founding chapter and Calgar originally born as slave on a Tyranid-slave-fleet.

Not sure if the robotic-arms and legs even made it into 2nd Edition.

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 17:20
He did back in Rogue Trader days when Ultramarines also had a half-Eldar Librarian, Maccragge was a dust planet, Ultramarines a second-founding chapter and Calgar originally born as slave on a Tyranid-slave-fleet.

Not sure if the robotic-arms and legs even made it into 2nd Edition.

Ironically, if that was the case the fight would be much more believable the way it was written.

Castigator
08-02-2011, 17:20
When it's done, you'd rather it be written well though, and plausible?

'Epic' isn't the word I'd use to describe that fight.

I have under no circumstances said it would be unbeatable. But the way it was written is just not plausible (unless Calgar had the ruinous powers on his side); it would be better if he had not gone into detail and left the throwaway line that the Avatar was defeated.

I do think it is written rather well and plausibly. Mind you, it'll not win the nobel price for literature, but its a catchy story. And the drama comes precisely from the "blade-catch" at the moment when all hope seems lost. That is what gives it the nice "turn-around" after, to be frank, the Avatar up to that point has been rampaging all over the Ultramarines, including Calgar (which is also the reason the Avatar is not described as being heavily wounded beforehand.. it would ruin the "twist", so to say).

If you don't like it, fine, but it's not a bad story by any objective standard IMO.

Castigator
08-02-2011, 17:22
Ironically, if that was the case the fight would be much more believable the way it was written.

Why would that be? How are "super-robo-arms" more plausible than "mysterious-primarch-gauntlet"?

Torpedo Vegas
08-02-2011, 17:23
Why would that be? How are "super-robo-arms" more plausible than "mysterious-primarch-gauntlet"?

Because TECHNOLOGY. It really doesn't matter. Applying logic to 40k is a bad idea to begin with. Its cool for the sake of cool.

Poseidal
08-02-2011, 18:34
Why would that be? How are "super-robo-arms" more plausible than "mysterious-primarch-gauntlet"?

Because the force of something the size of the Avatar, and weight of the sword would take Calgar's arm clean off it's socket even if the Gauntlets weren't penetrated at all.

Castigator
08-02-2011, 18:40
Because the force of something the size of the Avatar, and weight of the sword would take Calgar's arm clean off it's socket even if the Gauntlets weren't penetrated at all.

That is why Space Marines wear powered exo-armour, in this case even the mighty Tactical Dreadnaught Armour. Simply by the bulk of material, these are far superiour to any bionic replacement of body limps, no matter how well crafted. Infact, Space Marines in Terminator Armour have been stepped on by Titans and come away fresh as a peach.

Surely, a suit of mastercrafted Terminator-Armour can hold the weight (if it is not pierced, this is what the Wailing Doom is about, it cuts through ... anything). And surely a bicep-sized piece of metal (even if its a Space Marine biceps) wouldn't make much difference here one way or another.

Zweischneid
08-02-2011, 19:29
Seriously? People think it is "implausible physics" that Calgar could hold the blow of an Avatar (with or without badass gauntlets and Terminator Armour)?

Why don't we take a comparative look at an example from Phil Kelly's ostensibly so brilliant Dark Eldar Codex, shall we?



Asdrubael Vect tricks his would-be rival Archon Kelithresh into opening a casket that has ostensibly been presented as tithe. Held precariously in the collapsing field of the casket is the unstable essence of a black hole. Kelithresh's entire realm is plunged into a howling, yawning vortex.


Soooooo? What is the essence of a black hole? How was it put into a box? And why does opening the box not eat the whole of Commorrah?

Did Phil Kelly even bother to google-up what a god damn BLACK HOLE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole) actually is? Really? And Mat Ward is criticized for being out of touch with hard-core, down-to-earth physics? Really?

I am sorry, but there seem to be some serious cases of "hypocritical double standards" going around here.

Azzy
08-02-2011, 19:42
Referring to 'mortal', Calgar is still an ordinary man. He has no supernatural powers (unless he has chaos gloves), and is bound by the laws of the physics in the 40k universe.

You mean the same 40K laws of physics that allow a biotitan (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-HIEROPHANT-BIO-TITAN.html) (and indeed titans in general) of such incredible size and mass that is distributed to such a tiny surface area to not sink up to its belly or for its spindly limbs to not rip from the sockets? Riiiiight.

You want a justification, here: Heracles versus the Hydra. Sigurd versus Fafnir. Beowulf versus Grendel. He-Man versus Skeletor. Big damned hero beats (alien) monster. That's it. That's all the justification it needs.

Kresterz
08-02-2011, 20:46
Well, physics are almost useless concepts in 40K. So does imagination that is allowed to go rampant and is usually nothing more than, he jumped on monster, takes out knife that he had lost in previous monster and then does epic one sided combat o.O Need I say more? If you really cared, Iyanden, inquistor czevack andthe black library. Lady malys and some guy who may or may not have been the laughing god :shifty: ( my suspicion.)

Sparowl
08-02-2011, 22:07
Soooooo? What is the essence of a black hole? How was it put into a box? And why does opening the box not eat the whole of Commorrah?

Actually, to answer the whole "why doesn't it eat commorrah":

If a black hole with of 2200 lb mass (1000 kg mass) suddenly appeared a meter away as you walked down the street, it would pull you toward it with a force of roughly 10-6 lb (5 x 10-6 newtons). In other words, you would not even feel the force. Yes, the 1000 kg black hole would still "eat" nearby matter, but the key word is nearby, very nearby. It would not be capable of drawing in matter from any appreciable distance.

On the other hand the temperature of a black hole is inversely proportional to the mass. While black holes containing billions of times the Sun's mass are near absolute zero, a 1000 kilogram black hole would be far hotter than the surface of the Sun 1. At such temperatures it would evaporate by emitting very short wave length ionizing radiation--the kind that can cause everything from a nasty sunburn to death. For that reason you wouldn't want to stand near it although you would be in no danger of being pulled into it. Fortunately, small black holes will tend to evaporate faster than they grow.


So, it wouldn't pull everything in, being so small that it fit in a box, but it would probably fry everyone within a respectable distance and then evaporate. Its one of the reasons the universe isn't all one big black hole.

The real question to ask is:

How god damn heavy was that box? They must've had multiple anti-grav devices just to move it.


You want a justification, here: Heracles versus the Hydra. Sigurd versus Fafnir. Beowulf versus Grendel. He-Man versus Skeletor. Big damned hero beats (alien) monster. That's it. That's all the justification it needs.

The problem is that doesn't jive with the 40K motto of: "The Universe is a big place. You will not be missed."

Super-heroic-heroic-super-heroes isn't what 40k is about. At least, it wasn't, and looking at the front of the rulebook, it still shouldn't be. That's the whole point of the grimdark.

FabricatorGeneralMike
08-02-2011, 23:08
Ever heard of dramatic narrative? Would you have preferred to have the Avatar go down to a random Lascannon shot by some unnamed Devastator? Or trip over a anti-super-heavy-tank mine and blow to pieces? Clearly you would perhaps be better off playing FoW. 40K is a game of heroic, cinematic action, that is what Ehlijen is implying, and Calgar vs. the Avatar is a clash of heroic proportions, of Hercules vs. the Hydra, of Odysseus vs. the Cyclops, of St. George vs. the Dragon, etc.. ..

I am not sure where you're reading a Chaos reference in this. Please provide a source and quote if you do.


And just like today we 'gloss' over the faults of those 'Hero's'. Do we remember why Hercules had to do his quests? He killed his family in a drunken rage. Do we remember why Odysseus had to wonder around for 20 years? etc etc...

I personally think that this;

"For more than a hundred canturies the Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium, for whom a thousand souls die everyday, for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh- the stuff of which the Imperium is made.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of those times.

It is a universe you can live in today-if you dare- for this is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort or hope. If you want to take part in the adventure then prepare yourself now. forget the power of technology,science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an etirity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods.

But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed...." says it all.

I don't see 40k as a cinimatic heroic game. I see it as mankind doing any dirty deed that is necessary to survive one more day.

" The greatest man is but a ripple on the surface of space"

So, the God-Emperor is the only constant, but Calgar can do stuff that would make a Primarch screem "Power Gamer!!1!!1".

But thats the great thing about 40k, its a big galaxy, so your 40k and my 40k might vary but neither of them are wrong. As for the Space Wolf 'wolfy mcwolfinson with wolfy wolf wolf stuff' thats been going on since 1st ed RT days. They have always been kinda, daft, and over the top. It's their stick. As to the Blood Angel stuff tho....come on.....come on....:rolleyes: YMMV :cheese:

N0-1_H3r3
08-02-2011, 23:36
Did Phil Kelly even bother to google-up what a god damn BLACK HOLE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole) actually is? Really? And Mat Ward is criticized for being out of touch with hard-core, down-to-earth physics? Really?
Firstly, Eldar technology is frequently established to be essentially magic in its sophistication and incomprehensibility. If Eldar or Dark Eldar background describes something scientifically impossible achieved through technology, chances are it's deliberate. Frankly, the same notion can be attributed to almost anyone in 40k to varying degrees - in 40k, Technology = Magic.

Secondly, 40k is to science what a fancy dress costume of a nurse is to the medical profession - a thin and entirely unconvincing game of dress-up used more for theme and flavour than anything even remotely resembling authenticity. Bouts of apoplectic rage are far less frequent once you come to terms with the idea that 40k is science fiction in the same way that I'm a gorilla in a trench-coat - the same basic shape, but very different in practical terms.

Mannimarco
08-02-2011, 23:37
Although the fluff power level of characters has risen dramatically since the earlier versions of the game to the point where their feats rival the "true heroes of old" like the Primarchs.

Look the old story of the world eater who saluted Ulrik the Slayer after he single handedly killed 3 berserkers. For the time that was considered quite impressive, now unless the character destroys somthing of a daemon princes caliber then its not worth mentioning.

Kabanda, the big bad bloodthirster who kicked the crap out of Sanguinius (Primarch) then wipes out 500 BA marines and is later defeated by Sanguinius at the siege of Terra is defeated by Sanguinior (who may or not be Sanguinius anyway but if he isnt then we now have an entity on power level with a Primarch).

Calgar catches a weapon weilded by somthing bigger and stronger than him, the blow from that downward swing should have at the very least shattered some bones or dislocated a shoulder, remember that amount of force would be pretty jarring you would imagine.

At least in the Fulgrim incident (he didnt strangle it BTW, just pinned it down then pounded its face in) had the decency to go around with horribly scarred hands for a while afterwards and thats even with his super daemon flesh.

Then we have things like a titan standing on a space wolf who promptly picks himself up and dusts himself off so theres somthing to be said for the protective abilities of TDA if it can support hundreds of tonnes coming down on top of you and not turning you into a pancake.

The fact remains that fluff escalation is alive and well and will only increase as time goes on leading us to scenarios where the protagonists will begin to do somthing....anything that makes them more uber than the guys in the last book even if it puts them on "GOD MODE!"

Azzy
09-02-2011, 00:07
The problem is that doesn't jive with the 40K motto of: "The Universe is a big place. You will not be missed."

Super-heroic-heroic-super-heroes isn't what 40k is about. At least, it wasn't, and looking at the front of the rulebook, it still shouldn't be. That's the whole point of the grimdark.

I strongly disagree. First, the grimdark thing is the background to which big shiny, ultra-colorful superheroes and supervillains (not to mention bad puns) are juxtaposed. Secondly, look at the amount of characters doing superheroic things from the Emperor and his Primarchs down to Macharius, Yarrick, Eldrad, Nazdreg, Mephiston, etc.... These are the movers and shakers of the 40K setting. The Universe may be a big place, but they've all left indelible marks and scars upon it. These are the 40K equivalent to the heroes of myth and legend.

Zweischneid
09-02-2011, 07:50
The problem is that doesn't jive with the 40K motto of: "The Universe is a big place. You will not be missed."

Super-heroic-heroic-super-heroes isn't what 40k is about. At least, it wasn't, and looking at the front of the rulebook, it still shouldn't be. That's the whole point of the grimdark.

I do not think there is a contradiction there. Middle Earth is also a big place where you will not be missed. As is Star Wars. Or whatever. That's the point of grimdark... a bleak, miserable place of suffering and/or oppression is what makes heroes shine; and it does so in 40K since Rogue Trader days. Why, otherwise, would you even need named characters and/or Space Marines as "the elite" of mankind who stand on the forefront of the Imperiums battlelines?

Poseidal
09-02-2011, 07:50
The first Space Marine hero was considered such for fighting Orks off a farm and getting ten men to safety.

Zweischneid
09-02-2011, 07:53
Calgar catches a weapon weilded by somthing bigger and stronger than him, the blow from that downward swing should have at the very least shattered some bones or dislocated a shoulder, remember that amount of force would be pretty jarring you would imagine.


Again, not more jarring than a goddam TITAN stepping on a Terminator. And that's been established since long, long, long before Mat Ward entred the company that a suit of Terminator armour can withstand that kind of force (and keep the guy inside alive through it).

The Avatar's schtick is not brute force, it's a magic, blinky sword that can cut anything, anything but Calgar's gauntlets which (since 4th edition at least) cannot be cut by anything. The "strenght" of the Avatars blow in this encounter is negligible (if measured by all existing, pre-5th edition fluff).

Zweischneid
09-02-2011, 07:54
The first Space Marine hero was considered such for fighting Orks off a farm and getting ten men to safety.

Source and links please.. my Rogue Trader book reads rather differently.

Poseidal
09-02-2011, 07:56
You just mentioned the source. Didn't you open the batts at the farm at the end of the book?

Ulrig
09-02-2011, 08:20
Didnt Kelly write the Ork Codex? All codexes should be modeled after that.

Voss
09-02-2011, 08:34
And the fight with the Avatar was Calgar vs. Avatar down to one wound. It had been shot up and abused before Calgar got to it. That fight was the equivalent of kicking a crippled old man.

And of course, based on stats and abilities (Calgar's rerolls in particular), thats a perfectly reasonable result for a straight fight between the two, even without plot armor or a wounded Avatar. I'm not quite sure, what with all the really terrible things GW is doing to the established background these days, why people get upset about that in particular.


Zweishchneid- I think Sparowl has a good point with that 'you will not be missed' quote. Super heroes and major characters were a later edition to the game- it certainly didn't start out that way. The 40K universe isn't a place were heroes shine, its a place were everyone gets dragged down in the red tide of war... or something even worse happens to them. Space Marines were a necessary evil- to take men and make them something other than human, and sacrifice them continually so humanity has something resembling a fighting chance. They weren't intended to be heroes at all (speaking from an RT perspective)- they're psychopathic, bigoted zealots, unleashed upon the enemies of man without the slightest pity or mercy. From both a rules and background perspective, I'd say the profusion of special characters, particularly 'heroic' ones, has weakened the game immensely.

AndrewGPaul
09-02-2011, 08:36
So, it wouldn't pull everything in, being so small that it fit in a box, but it would probably fry everyone within a respectable distance and then evaporate. Its one of the reasons the universe isn't all one big black hole.

Or is it? There are cosmological theories which state the universe is exactly that - and we're viewing it from the inside. If you calculate the mass of a black hole with an event horizon the diameter of the universe, you end up with ... about the mass of the universe. :)


The problem is that doesn't jive with the 40K motto of: "The Universe is a big place. You will not be missed."

Super-heroic-heroic-super-heroes isn't what 40k is about. At least, it wasn't, and looking at the front of the rulebook, it still shouldn't be. That's the whole point of the grimdark.

The "grimdark"* needs the light, too. In any case, that quotation only says you won't be missed. You're not Chapter Master of the Ultramarines. :)

* and remember, "grimdark" is an insult, not a good thing.

Zweischneid
09-02-2011, 08:55
Zweishchneid- I think Sparowl has a good point with that 'you will not be missed' quote. Super heroes and major characters were a later edition to the game- it certainly didn't start out that way. The 40K universe isn't a place were heroes shine, its a place were everyone gets dragged down in the red tide of war... or something even worse happens to them. Space Marines were a necessary evil- to take men and make them something other than human, and sacrifice them continually so humanity has something resembling a fighting chance. They weren't intended to be heroes at all (speaking from an RT perspective)- they're psychopathic, bigoted zealots, unleashed upon the enemies of man without the slightest pity or mercy. From both a rules and background perspective, I'd say the profusion of special characters, particularly 'heroic' ones, has weakened the game immensely.


That may be your take on it. Fair enough; though I tend to disagree.

But neither interpretation changes the fact that there are far more ridiculous things out there (Maugan Ra, Straken, etc.., Vect in its newest incarnation, Titans stepping on Terminators) than the Calgar-vs.-Avatar story, as well as plenty of precedent for Marine/Xenos "respect" (e.g. Wolf Priest & Khorne Berzerker) before Dante acknowledged the fighting prowess of the Necrons, that the singleminded determination by which people seek to lay the blame for their own disillusionment with a childhood hobby at the feet of Mat Ward seems rather far-fetched.

Gingerwerewolf
09-02-2011, 09:50
Zweishchneid- I think Sparowl has a good point with that 'you will not be missed' quote. Super heroes and major characters were a later edition to the game- it certainly didn't start out that way. The 40K universe isn't a place were heroes shine, its a place were everyone gets dragged down in the red tide of war... or something even worse happens to them. Space Marines were a necessary evil- to take men and make them something other than human, and sacrifice them continually so humanity has something resembling a fighting chance. They weren't intended to be heroes at all (speaking from an RT perspective)- they're psychopathic, bigoted zealots, unleashed upon the enemies of man without the slightest pity or mercy. From both a rules and background perspective, I'd say the profusion of special characters, particularly 'heroic' ones, has weakened the game immensely.

Sorry Id disagree with that statement:
The RT Era Space Marines were juts like Marines in todays society. If you remember Rogue Trader has some Marines in a pub in a couple of pictures.

It wasnt untill the suppliments that Space Marines became the Super Human Warriors of the 41st Millenium and it was then that they became the Poster Child of the Imperium. Space Marines were created to do what you say but were shown to the average populace as being Super Heros who defend the human way of life. Yes they were Trained Bearly Human Psychopaths, but they are OUR Trained Bearly Human Psychopaths.

In Game Terms Space Marines started getting the Hero's with Rogue Trader as well with your Character Models having a vast swathe of weaponry and skills at their disposal. They were definately heroic. The only difference was that there wasnt any rules for specific special characters, only stories of them.

There have ALWAYS been Heros in 40k and there always will be because thats what sells.

I can understand that you dont like Heros in a wargame, but this is a Fantasy Game. 40k is a Dark Fantasy setting that just happens to be in the future.

Try Warhammer Anchients if you prefer a more realistic - no hero based game.

Gingerwerewolf
09-02-2011, 09:55
That may be your take on it. Fair enough; though I tend to disagree.

But neither interpretation changes the fact that there are far more ridiculous things out there (Maugan Ra, Straken, etc.., Vect in its newest incarnation, Titans stepping on Terminators) than the Calgar-vs.-Avatar story, as well as plenty of precedent for Marine/Xenos "respect" (e.g. Wolf Priest & Khorne Berzerker) before Dante acknowledged the fighting prowess of the Necrons, that the singleminded determination by which people seek to lay the blame for their own disillusionment with a childhood hobby at the feet of Mat Ward seems rather far-fetched.

Marine and Chaos respect existed all the way back in RT era and there are an amazing series of stories about Brother Karlsson of the Thousand Sons.

All the stories in 40k are rediculous. Just like Hercules and insert any other Greek or Roman hero here, its the stupid over the top tales that people want to hear.

So now that thats sorted can we get back on topic? ;)

Where did GW hire the writers from? Were there Adverts on their job pages?