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farfromsam
07-02-2011, 16:56
it has started to seem like Games Workshop is building the Salamanders up to be the tech superior marines over the Iron hands. I recognize that the Sallies do have an affinity with weapons that revolve around heat based weapons, even Thunder hammers, but when the painted demo on the back of a Thunderfire Cannon is a salamder scheme, as well as the venerable dred done up green, two units I had always thought were more IH than sally.

Any ideas as to why? (aside from green looks better therefore easier to sell [btw green is better as long as it dark green]) and what the future for the iron hands is?

Bonzai
07-02-2011, 17:08
Part of it is the popularity of Vulkan lists. GW see's them being popular, so they feed into the frenzy.

I don't see them as techno oriented. Craftsmen sure. But not so much technology based. Iron Hands are the red headed step children of the Space marines right now, as they are the only ones without a special characer or their own codex. Really, they are divergent enought to warrant their own codex, but do we really need another marine dex?

Dr.Clock
07-02-2011, 17:40
Sallies are about the resilience of the human form. Iron Hands are about its weakness.

Sallies hand-craft their own wargear. Iron Hands deliberately replace their own hands.

Both chapters aspire to cleanse themselves of impurity: the Iron Hands just take this far more literally than do the Salamanders. The purifying of the Salamander's soul is a metaphor... the alteration of an Iron Hand's body is the most concrete form of self-purification.

Iron Hands probably have newer equipment that is highly standardized and modular. Salamanders have older equipment that is maintained to the highest levels and forged in many cases by the Marine who uses it.

Basically, it's the difference between the finest artisanal workmanship and the most advanced robotic manufacturing.

I don't think that GW is making a case for Sallies being more advanced than the IH... just that they've had a bigger following since the 3rd ed. Armageddon book.

Iron Hands suffer from the fact that GW has still not satisfactorily incorporated techmarines into the codex. MotF is cool... but there needs to be a step above (+1 W, access to inv. save)... likewise elite techmarine is pointless (I suggest allowing them to take a pair of weapon platforms a la tarantula, rapier, mole-mortar along with servitor minders)...

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Lord Damocles
07-02-2011, 18:13
Or it might just be that the GW studio has a Salamander army painted up...


:shifty:

Korraz
07-02-2011, 20:00
Count how often Iron Hands get mentioned in the vanilla book. There's your answer.

IH got basically written into they grey (ultramarine blue?) mass of bland randomchapters.. They got reduced to a sidenote, on the same level as White Consuls. No, wait, on White Consuls is more fluff than IH. They are on the same level as chapters like Golden Gryphons. "Oh, yeah, those guys exist too. Here's what the look like, no go away." With some luck, they have accepted Calgar entirely as their spritual liege and stopped the whole bodymod thing. The old organisation with venerable dreads and everything is out of the question, you know, witht the Codex Astartes.

ehlijen
07-02-2011, 22:26
The Iron hands were never meant to be the super tech chapter. They were meant to be the chapter that most prefers tech over biology. Why send in a squad when a tank can level the building? Why heal a wounded marine when you can stick him in a dreadnaught?

This neccessitates a higher than usual number of techmarines to provide this tech and a higher average level of tech proficiency so the battle brothers can maintain their bionic parts. But at the end of the day it's about not falling to the weakness of the flesh, not about having awesome toys.

The Salamanders view crafting as a prerequisite skill for a battle brother and demand that any marine be able to look after his gear and be able to make replacements if need be and given the right tools. They are about making the best gear they can, because it shows their personal value to the chapter. But they don't throw away perfectly funtional biologic parts of themselves just because their primarch had an inferiority complex.

In a perfect world, the salamanders would be making the bionics the Iron hands then use.

Dr.Clock
07-02-2011, 22:49
Iron Salamander-hands FTW!

I actually have a soft spot for both Chapters... I just think that Salamanders are easier to identify with. I really like the fact that they take their 'protector of humanity' things so literally and actually go and spend time with the population of Nocturne.

The Sallies are like the guy with the classic car that will offer you a ride in it. The Iron Hands are the guys that soup up Hondas with all kinds of spoilers and massive engines with computer-controlled injection rigs and what not.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

TheMav80
08-02-2011, 00:36
The Salamanders were always artistic craftsmen. While the Iron Hands had some of that Pre-Heresy, afterwards they became much different. Considering their failure at Istvaan to be a sign of weakness inherent in their flesh. They are very very much like all the Mechanicum characters you see around.

They were supposed to be the closest to the Mechanicum out of any chapter.

TheLaughingGod
08-02-2011, 00:40
Yes. Because this is all a conspiracy to shun an imaginary faction in a children's miniature game.

I for one, would really like people to stop talking about Iron Hands.

We need LESS Meh-rines, not MORE. So until Xenos or Chaos gets more flavor, we really don't need to hear about "Obscure Chapter #038" not getting enough love.

/Get off my lawn

Hellebore
08-02-2011, 00:47
The salamanders were described in more detail before the iron hands were (salamanders appeared in codex Armageddon before the iron hands received their IA article). I was disappointed that they gave a lot of what was ostensibly Vulkan's character to Ferrus Manus in the heresy, because they couldn't come up with anything original for Manus.

Hellebore

-Loki-
08-02-2011, 02:39
I was disappointed that they gave a lot of what was ostensibly Vulkan's character to Ferrus Manus in the heresy, because they couldn't come up with anything original for Manus.

Hellebore


That annoyed me too. Like Horus has a sword masterfully crafter by Ferrus Manus. Vulkans the master craftsman he should be after to make a sword for him.

TheMav80
08-02-2011, 06:48
I feel like Vulkan was more of a blacksmith and Manus was more of an engineer. There is overlap, but they have distinct areas of expertise.

Then again...they are all Primarchs. They can all do anything they want and it will be awesome to the max. Cuz they are Primarchs.

AlphariusOmegon20
08-02-2011, 15:11
The simplest way to put it is Sallies are armorers (work on weapons), and IH are computer geeks.

Yes it's probably an oversimplification, but it's fairly close.

farfromsam
08-02-2011, 18:13
The simplest way to put it is Sallies are armorers (work on weapons), and IH are computer geeks.

Yes it's probably an oversimplification, but it's fairly close.

Well wouldn't that still leave Dreds, TFC's and stuff for IH?

my second question would be what other good fluff on the Iron hands are there aside from Fulgrim

Avatar_exADV
08-02-2011, 20:47
Hey, green is good! Just ask the Orks!

Honestly, I think the Salamanders have a big fluff advantage. There's umpteen chapters which are "in the grim darkness of the future, there is only grim war grimly fought in grimness". The Salamanders are "screw grim, we're heroes!" That's not to say that there's not something honorable in the way that most Marines are dedicated to the ideal of the Imperium, but the Salamanders' attitude is a little different. Being dedicated not just to saving the Imperium as a whole, but the little bit where you're standing at the moment, resonates with players. They may not have wisdom on their side (though you don't get a lot of idiot masters of the forge), but spiritually they're a breath of fresh air.

Iron Hands, by contrast, get a double dose of grim grimness.

IH is clearly not a popular chapter; the Salamanders are, to the extent that any chapter without its own book or a big gold U on blue can be called "popular". So, given that of the popular chapters they're the most tech-oriented, it's no surprise that GW can say "hey, look, it's high tech, it's endorsed by SALAMANDERS" and players will go "sweet!"

aka_mythos
08-02-2011, 20:50
The philosphical difference between Salamanders and Iron Hands is, the Salamander says "give me the best weapon that I may better serve the Emperor" while the Iron Hand says "make me a better weapon that I may better serve the Emperor.

The Iron Hands don't want to make better machines, they want to be machines. I tend to believe that GW's left Iron Hands for FW to cover, but if they were an army unto themselves their basic marines would probably have Feel No Pain, or something like it.

Their army would have a strong emphasis on Dreadnoughts and other instances of the melding of man and machine. In the most recent Imperial Armor FW book, an Iron Hands second founding Chapter is represented by a special character who makes a devestator squad slow and purposeful and better shooters since they're able to treat their heavy weapons as extensions of themselves.

If Iron Hands were there own army there would be an abundance of Techmarines. The most basic, with servitors as troop choice, a "MotF" level choice as an elite, and Iron Father's being given the full "chaptermaster" stat line and MotF options.

Terminators would be a 0-1 choice, since they're distributed evenly between the Clans. I wouldn't be surprised if because of they're given a little more "umph" but then again terminator armor and feel no pain might be enough. I could see the FnP save being adjusted based on how veteran they are since they'd be more and more machine.

I could imagine all or most vehicles with "PotMS" representing vehicles mind linked interfaced to the drivers.

They wouldn't have chaplains and their Libarians would be themed towards the machine and dreadnought emphasis of the army... things like Curse of the Machine Spirit or maybe an ability to reawaken fallen dreadnoughts. Make them into "machine whisperers" of sorts.

Meanwhile if Salamanders had their own list, they'd be represented with all their techmarines being masters of the forge. They'd have more master crafted weapons and master crafted vehicles.

igotsmeakabob!!
08-02-2011, 21:14
Probably 'cuz Ward didn't see fit to give the Iron Hands their proper place as a First-Founding chapter and relegated them to the back with the successors.

aka_mythos
08-02-2011, 23:42
More likely Mr. Ward just thought that given the limited way each chapter is represented and character driven the Master of the Forge was adequate.

TheMav80
09-02-2011, 00:22
They are left out of the backround entirely and there is one single model shown painted as Iron Hands.

CasaHouse
09-02-2011, 00:35
Hey, green is good! Just ask the Orks!

Honestly, I think the Salamanders have a big fluff advantage. There's umpteen chapters which are "in the grim darkness of the future, there is only grim war grimly fought in grimness". The Salamanders are "screw grim, we're heroes!" That's not to say that there's not something honorable in the way that most Marines are dedicated to the ideal of the Imperium, but the Salamanders' attitude is a little different. Being dedicated not just to saving the Imperium as a whole, but the little bit where you're standing at the moment, resonates with players. They may not have wisdom on their side (though you don't get a lot of idiot masters of the forge), but spiritually they're a breath of fresh air.

Iron Hands, by contrast, get a double dose of grim grimness.

IH is clearly not a popular chapter; the Salamanders are, to the extent that any chapter without its own book or a big gold U on blue can be called "popular". So, given that of the popular chapters they're the most tech-oriented, it's no surprise that GW can say "hey, look, it's high tech, it's endorsed by SALAMANDERS" and players will go "sweet!"

THIS. A thousand times this.

The Salamanders have a fundamentally different feel to most other marine armies.

The Iron Hands are just grimdark technophile pricks turned up to thirteen, where most marines are just grimdark technophile pricks turned up to eleven.

Edit: I don't think Salamanders are the new Iron Hands, because that would imply that the Iron Hands occupied the same niche as the Salamanders at some point. They didn't.

Salamanders are blacksmiths, with a spiritual connection with fire, who believe in self reliance and the protection of humanity.

Iron Hands are engineers, with an envious connection with machinery, who believe that they(and to a greater extent, humanity) will NEVER be good enough, and try to make themselves as inhuman as possible to reduce that.

thoughtfoxx
10-02-2011, 08:27
No one mentioned the Sons of Medusa? Iron hands successor chapter - boatloads of background in IA10 not to mention a special character that gives his army a combat tactics attribute and that they are specifically mentioned as one of the 2 chapters named that use the Marine siege army list [all marine chapters can but they are named specifically] that gives you dread talons [3 dreads] as troop choices, a number of Heavy support vehicle squadron choices, as well as the Land Raider Achilles. Oh and they are green too.

All that said the sallies got 2 named characters one of them an uber dread so I think they are still way ahead in the GW 'who gets the lurve' stakes...

AlphariusOmegon20
10-02-2011, 15:19
No one mentioned the Sons of Medusa? Iron hands successor chapter - boatloads of background in IA10 not to mention a special character that gives his army a combat tactics attribute and that they are specifically mentioned as one of the 2 chapters named that use the Marine siege army list [all marine chapters can but they are named specifically] that gives you dread talons [3 dreads] as troop choices, a number of Heavy support vehicle squadron choices, as well as the Land Raider Achilles. Oh and they are green too.

All that said the sallies got 2 named characters one of them an uber dread so I think they are still way ahead in the GW 'who gets the lurve' stakes...

LOL actually it's 3. You forgot Master Apothecary Harath Shen on the FW website for download.

LoreDraconis
10-02-2011, 15:27
IH is clearly not a popular chapter; the Salamanders are, to the extent that any chapter without its own book or a big gold U on blue can be called "popular". So, given that of the popular chapters they're the most tech-oriented, it's no surprise that GW can say "hey, look, it's high tech, it's endorsed by SALAMANDERS" and players will go "sweet!"

lol! so untrue...

Salamanders are everywhere because they let you play Space Marines with training wheels.

Iron hands got royally f-ed in the new codex, being the only founding chapter without a special char. That is why few people play them,particularly if theyre noob-marine min-maxers.

I invite you to take a look at the project logs on this site to see how many hardcore hobbyists are into Iron Hands. GW has simply dropped the ball on the rules/support end.

AlphariusOmegon20
10-02-2011, 15:39
lol! so untrue...

Salamanders are everywhere because they let you play Space Marines with training wheels.

Iron hands got royally f-ed in the new codex, being the only founding chapter without a special char. That is why few people play them,particularly if theyre noob-marine min-maxers.

I invite you to take a look at the project logs on this site to see how many hardcore hobbyists are into Iron Hands. GW has simply dropped the ball on the rules/support end.

I'll agree with you that GW and Mat Ward dropped the ball on an IH SC, but to say Sallies have training wheels for players is incorrect. If you build a fluffy Salamander correct list, they most certainly DO NOT have training wheels. Half of the units that have flamers and Meltas in the Blue Book are not fluffy in a Sallie list. Even a few TH units aren't.

Second, ever had the fun of painting snot green on a large area of model? It doesn't cover either black or white primer very well. Rarely will you ever see anyone that is NOT a veteran, play Sallies for this reason alone. Hence why you see more younglings painting up Ultramarines, all of the blues cover primer better.

In my experience, it's the veterans that are playing the green flamey ones, not the noobs.

LoreDraconis
10-02-2011, 16:04
If you build a fluffy Salamander correct list, they most certainly DO NOT have training wheels.

While this is true, I see more people that build lists to abuse Vulkan than people who builld their Sallies fluffy, so that's more or less irrelevant.

One thing I will say is that I think IH need a bit more development on their colorscheme and iconography. If GW actually tried to develop them better, the IH could be unique enough to warrant their own codex, which cant be said of many chapters.

AlphariusOmegon20
10-02-2011, 17:16
While this is true, I see more people that build lists to abuse Vulkan than people who builld their Sallies fluffy, so that's more or less irrelevant.

If GW actually tried to develop them better, the IH could be unique enough to warrant their own codex, which cant be said of many chapters.

Legitimately, the same could be said for the Salamanders, who already HAD a list at one time and are far enough divergent from the Codex to warrant one, than say the Dark Angels.


Abuse of Vulkan is the fault of the one using him, not Mat Ward. I'm fairly sure his intention was for him to be used in Sallie armies, not Ultramarine ones. However, that being said, Lysander, Pedro, and others are also open to such abuses. Vulkan just gets the bad press, because to his abilities and popularity of such abilities due to the plethora of Mech lists out there.

thoughtfoxx
10-02-2011, 17:28
LOL actually it's 3. You forgot Master Apothecary Harath Shen on the FW website for download.

Argh! so I did! :rolleyes: Note to self; "Self remember to put copies of the downloads into the Badab War books dammitall!"]

aka_mythos
10-02-2011, 18:18
An Iron Hand apothecary would be a funny special character... he doesn't patch you up he lops off the affronting appendage and simply replaces it. Paper cut-Bionic finger! Bullet in the foot-Bionic leg! Headache-Bionic-...! :p

I guess such a character would allow you to ignore the first failed FnP roll the unit takes.

Avatar_exADV
10-02-2011, 19:03
Remind me not to take a kid in to that doc for a circumcision...

Korraz
10-02-2011, 20:00
lol! so untrue...

Salamanders are everywhere because they let you play Space Marines with training wheels.

Iron hands got royally f-ed in the new codex, being the only founding chapter without a special char. That is why few people play them,particularly if theyre noob-marine min-maxers.

I invite you to take a look at the project logs on this site to see how many hardcore hobbyists are into Iron Hands. GW has simply dropped the ball on the rules/support end.

Bitter voices might say, that nobody plays Iron Hands. There are only Ultramarines players that paint their guys black and give some of them bionics.:angel:

LoreDraconis
10-02-2011, 21:02
Bitter voices might say, that nobody plays Iron Hands. There are only Ultramarines players that paint their guys black and give some of them bionics.:angel:

Right you are sir...and one of those is yours truly...although there's a little red in there too. It just makes me sad that there are successor chapters that get more support than them. Missed opportunity if you ask me. Even their own successor chapter has more support than them now that IA 10 is out, although I wont complain about that, at least it's a move in the right direction.

I have a feeling though...i think theres something coming for them on the horizon. I'm thinking gamesday...im thinking IA 12 or 13. Here's hoping!

BlackLegion
10-02-2011, 21:34
If the Salamanders replace anything then it's the Imperial Fists.
Originally the Imperial Fists were the siege specialists. Now GW paints the Thunderfire Cannon and the Ironclad Dreadnought green and the first battle repord in WD featuring the Salamanders with just these units in a defensive army.

And the Imperial Fists turned into a Terminator-shock-and-awe army.

As for differences between Salamanders and Iron Hands:
The Salamanders take technology and create something beautiful but also functional.
The Iron Hands take technology and use it enhance their bodies. Also i don't think that they would alter their euwipment in any way due to their ties to Mars. Instead they would preserve old technology. Older Mks of armour and Dreadnoughts. New things like the Land Raider Redeemer or Land Speeder Storm would be heretek technology to them.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-02-2011, 05:20
If the Salamanders replace anything then it's the Imperial Fists.
Originally the Imperial Fists were the siege specialists. Now GW paints the Thunderfire Cannon and the Ironclad Dreadnought green and the first battle repord in WD featuring the Salamanders with just these units in a defensive army.

And the Imperial Fists turned into a Terminator-shock-and-awe army.

As for differences between Salamanders and Iron Hands:
The Salamanders take technology and create something beautiful but also functional.
The Iron Hands take technology and use it enhance their bodies. Also i don't think that they would alter their euwipment in any way due to their ties to Mars. Instead they would preserve old technology. Older Mks of armour and Dreadnoughts. New things like the Land Raider Redeemer or Land Speeder Storm would be heretek technology to them.

LOL Sallies are not a defensive army. They ARE the shock and awe army....

VanirX
11-02-2011, 06:56
If an Ad-Mech codex was made. Mayby it could be an Iron Hands / Ad-Mech codex?

thoughtfoxx
11-02-2011, 07:27
Remind me not to take a kid in to that doc for a circumcision...

That made me laugh. :) - Space Truckers for the win.

Bonzai
11-02-2011, 14:22
Remind me not to take a kid in to that doc for a circumcision...

Mel Brooks in Men in Tights ::"Trust me... the women love it!"

LoreDraconis
11-02-2011, 16:16
If an Ad-Mech codex was made. Mayby it could be an Iron Hands / Ad-Mech codex?

Sweet baby jesus yes. If they do this it will complete me. <3

Brother Fenix
12-02-2011, 00:15
From a Codex perspective, I have to agree that Iron Hands are being surpassed by Salamanders. Not being familiar with Salamanders background, was their Chapter Master always called a "Forgefather"? Does sound rather Iron Handy to me, a little to close to "Iron Father".

That aside, GW does still offer the IH Tactical Squad, for the time being, with customizable IH only parts. Also FW has added a IH transfer set, Icons, Etched Brass, and Rhino and LR doors.

-Loki-
12-02-2011, 00:36
From a Codex perspective, I have to agree that Iron Hands are being surpassed by Salamanders. Not being familiar with Salamanders background, was their Chapter Master always called a "Forgefather"? Does sound rather Iron Handy to me, a little to close to "Iron Father".

Vulkan He'Stan isn't the chapter master, and his fluff says nothing of the kind. He's a marine chosen to seek out the 9 artefacts left behind by Vulkan. The chapter masters title is chapter master, his name is Tu'Shan.

TheMav80
12-02-2011, 00:37
Iron Hands are cooler than the other chapters for one reason: Cyborgs.

Cyborgs are cool.
Genetically Engineered Super Humans are cool.
Power Armour is cool.

Put them all together and you have 11 (see what I did there) cool points! :chrome:

MajorWesJanson
12-02-2011, 04:15
The chapter masters title is chapter master, his name is Tu'Shan.

And he is Awesome Incarnate

Azulthar
12-02-2011, 10:58
Iron Hands are too grim. Salamanders fit the new 'heroic' image of 40k more.

Goatboy
12-02-2011, 20:26
TBH I think the Iron Hands may have got the better deal in the long run. Not having a SC in the vanilla codex leaves them open for expansion. If GW or Forge world decided to do an IH specific book(yeah I know its a long shot) there's no conflict with the existing Marine codex.
The Salamanders on the other hand have lost there own varient list and been absorbed into the vanilla codex.

LoreDraconis
12-02-2011, 20:35
yeah i think you're right Goatboy.

And it's not as far fetched as you may think. FW has recently expressed a lot of interest in the IH, including saying that they are very interested in exploring them, particularly because their organization is so divergent from standard marines. The inclusion of the Sons of Medusa in IA 10 is also a good sign...seems to me like they're warming up to the task.

For how little support they have, GW and FW either doesnt give a crap about them, or they're holding off for something bigger, and with the slow trickle of IH related stuff coming out of FW lately, I'd put my money on the latter.

Brother Fenix
12-02-2011, 23:05
yeah i think you're right Goatboy.

And it's not as far fetched as you may think. FW has recently expressed a lot of interest in the IH, including saying that they are very interested in exploring them, particularly because their organization is so divergent from standard marines. The inclusion of the Sons of Medusa in IA 10 is also a good sign...seems to me like they're warming up to the task.

For how little support they have, GW and FW either doesnt give a crap about them, or they're holding off for something bigger, and with the slow trickle of IH related stuff coming out of FW lately, I'd put my money on the latter.

From a marketing perspective, the amount of sales they get from FW IH products and the like, may determine whether GW or FW pursue it further.

If there is enough interest. It now makes me curious about the sales numbers of Vulkan vs. other special characters that were released at the same time or even those re-released with the new SM Codex.