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Orcboy_Phil
09-02-2011, 06:45
Having just read todays O&G rumours it got me thinking, the current rumour is that Boarboyz will be going down to 16pts with Savage Orcs being 18. Since 8th came out we've been proclaiming the death of Cavalry in favour of humongues sized units of Infantry. Now with such a drastic reduction in price for Boarboys (33% if I remember my O&G army book), could this herald the dawn of the Horde calvary army. For slightly more than current chaos and lizardman Deathstars you could have 30 (or 60 depending on what happens to tuskar charge) Str 5 attacks in an incredible quick unit. Your thoughts fellow warseers. Will other armies follow this pattern or is this just a rebalancing of a redicoulsely expensive unit? Will this herald the birth of the cavalrystar or will Clanrat hordes still be king?

ftayl5
09-02-2011, 07:17
I think that generally if something is really bad in one edition, it will be really good in the next. So the Boar Boyz go from really overcosted to quite cheap.
It's hardly time to be thinking about this IMO because we don't know what else will change in the unit.

Regardless, they have new/recent models which GW would like to sell, so obviously they're going to make them viable/good/very good.

As of now cavalry are too expensive. But the 'Cavalry-star' might begin to apply to more armies as their books are updated, we can only wonder.

ROCKY
09-02-2011, 07:21
well cavalry never really died, they just have different roles. dark riders, marauder horsemen, etc go for warmachine hunting. and as for things like empire knights, they are still very usable. in a large game (5000pts etc) i run a unit of 30 knights of the white wolf and i tell u they pack a punch, especially with a warrior priest. 31 S5 attacks with a 2+armor save is nothing to sneeze at especially when they charge the flank. also they will continue to grind down units like slaves, high elf spear guard, and other S3 guys. do to lots of S5 attacks and horse attacks and the 2+ armor will make YOUR casualties few and far between. now some armies like chaos cannot afford huge knight death stars due to their expensive points cost AND due to them losing out on attacks in the second rank. so yea you can horde units of nice armor saves and 1 attack cavalry models and get good results. and as for smaller and normal games take units of 12 or 15 and use them to charge things in the flank. not only will you kill quite a few guys but you will cancel their ranks and thus overrun their butts. so you just need to pick your battles better.

Wesser
09-02-2011, 07:56
We all wanna recreate the Rohan charge scene from LoTR....

Djekar
09-02-2011, 08:11
I don't think it's dead, and to be honest I'd wait to see if they are undercosting cav again until after the O&G book. Our cav was pants last edition, and that coupled with shiny new models means that they were bound to be good in this edition regardless of what 8th did to the unit type as a whole.

Rocky brings up some good points, and I think that the thing to remember is that in 8th *all* unit sizes got bigger. Cav went up to ~10 (unless you are blood knights/chaos knights - but try them in a unit of 10+ too sometime!) or 5 if you are relegating them to hunting warmachines/charging fleeing enemies/generating CR via a rear or flank combo charge.

Hordes of 1 attack, decent strength cav could be in the offing, but then that would seem par for the course in this edition where bigger is better. What a butt that unit would have though - 3 deep at least (to utilize the horde rule) and therefore at least 150mm deep - not terrible, but it doesn't inspire confidence in me either when there is that much frontage waiting to be flank charged with only 3 models to attack back.

Okuto
09-02-2011, 12:11
We all wanna recreate the Rohan charge scene from LoTR....

here here! Now my Brets can't do that, gotta take the peksy peasants along now....

scarletsquig
09-02-2011, 12:29
I can see units of 30 boarboys in horde formation having a lot of fun...

Okuto
09-02-2011, 14:50
gotta dust mine off though I'm excited about this new orc boyz upgrade

yabbadabba
09-02-2011, 14:56
Cavalry is not dead.

You bring on your army of humungous units, and once I have dropped my mortars, hellstorms and magic on them and turned them into small units, and my cavalry has chased off your war machines, skirmishers etc, then my regular units will turn your now considerably smaller units into mush with flanking/rear attacking cavalry adding support.

Cavalry has not died, but its role has changed.

Okuto
09-02-2011, 14:57
I still can never win watchtower with my brets though even if my cav sweeps the field

exodes
09-02-2011, 15:48
Brets definately might have some issues, but what about a paladin, bsb and 8 knights going in with the flamming banner?

Also, even though it says right in the rules, a lot of people seem to miss that a watchtower for the watchtower scenario doesn't have to be a watchtower. It could just be a single piece of terrain such as a hill, forest, throne of skulls, etc.

MarshalFaust
09-02-2011, 16:09
I dont see cav being dead at all. they just have a different role in 8th than they did in 7th, for the better I believe. you can no longer expect your small 5 man unit of cav to steamroll a block of infantry to the front which is fairly realistic. they are now used for harassing, coordinated flank charges and if in large enough units breaking small elite units.

now this creates a few pricing problems with old books andd i think thats why we are seeing such a drop in price for boar boys.

Earthbeard
09-02-2011, 17:46
My Chaos Warrior cavalry force still performs very well, takes longer to break people, but such is life :D

Korraz
09-02-2011, 18:45
Cavalry died? Why wasn't I invited to the funeral?

It didn't die, it got put back into it's place. Cavalry charges are devastating, but riding into hundreds of guys IS suicide. However, two huge untis can whack each other's heads for an eternity. Cue cavalry charge. The infantry negates steadfast and your knights make your game.

I, for one, don't miss the times of autowin cavalry charges.

Don Zeko
09-02-2011, 19:17
Cavalry died? Why wasn't I invited to the funeral?

It didn't die, it got put back into it's place. Cavalry charges are devastating, but riding into hundreds of guys IS suicide. However, two huge untis can whack each other's heads for an eternity. Cue cavalry charge. The infantry negates steadfast and your knights make your game.

I, for one, don't miss the times of autowin cavalry charges.

Exactly. Deep, narrow infantry unit + 7th edition style MSU cav will break a horde on the charge. Plus, cavalry continue to benefit from lots of attacks per frontage, thanks to their mounts, and great armor that limits attrition over protracted combats.

Storak
09-02-2011, 19:33
Having just read todays O&G rumours it got me thinking, the current rumour is that Boarboyz will be going down to 16pts with Savage Orcs being 18. Since 8th came out we've been proclaiming the death of Cavalry in favour of humongues sized units of Infantry. Now with such a drastic reduction in price for Boarboys (33% if I remember my O&G army book), could this herald the dawn of the Horde calvary army. For slightly more than current chaos and lizardman Deathstars you could have 30 (or 60 depending on what happens to tuskar charge) Str 5 attacks in an incredible quick unit. Your thoughts fellow warseers. Will other armies follow this pattern or is this just a rebalancing of a redicoulsely expensive unit? Will this herald the birth of the cavalrystar or will Clanrat hordes still be king?

your analysis is based on a misunderstanding of the rumour that this point cost is based on. the post said, that boars would be 16 points NAKED.
that would make them 19 points with LA, shield and spear. and would place them ABOVE the cost in 6th edition.

and boars were not dominating the scene in 6th edition, which was much more cavalry friendly, had no steadfast, few hordes, good ways to avoid animosity and no striking in ini order.

without an other major change (beyond choppa rules for cav spears, which i assume will happen), boars will be horrible in 8th edition.

-------------

but let us assume you were right. boars go down to 16 points with full equipment. this would place them at the price of a chaos warrior with halberd (or the elite elf infantry). but the boar boys would only do similar damage during the first combat phase IF they got the charge. if they don t get the charge (or in later combat phases), they still have similar defence to the chaos warriors, but the offensive capacity of empire free company.

and the point cost? 5 boars would cost about what a boar chariot costs. and the chariot would be better in combat, but slower.

even at the lower price, boars would be useless.

R Man
09-02-2011, 22:32
but let us assume you were right. boars go down to 16 points with full equipment. this would place them at the price of a chaos warrior with halberd (or the elite elf infantry). but the boar boys would only do similar damage during the first combat phase IF they got the charge. if they don t get the charge (or in later combat phases), they still have similar defence to the chaos warriors, but the offensive capacity of empire free company.

I think something is missing here. Namely that a boar boy would be faster than a Chaos Warrior and thus flee and pursue more quickly. That does count for something.

Anyway, I think I worked out that Boar Boyz were about 5 points overpriced in 7th edition. So lowering the cost to 16 seems about right though they could go as low as 15. Though it does depend on other changed to the Orc army itself such as animosity.

UberBeast
10-02-2011, 02:03
Well, unless they also beef up the orc cavalry rules, it's still going to be too pricey at 16 and 18 points. I'd hate to see GW recognize this too late and then end up pricing superior cavalry in later books correctly only to leave orc cav in the dust with overpriced garbage again.

Shimmergloom
10-02-2011, 05:53
If boar boyz are 16pts, then wolf riders and spiders should be less than 10pts each.

R Man
10-02-2011, 07:45
If boar boyz are 16pts, then wolf riders and spiders should be less than 10pts each.

Sure. If they need it, why not? I think 7 points for Wolf Riders and 8 for Spider Riders. I think that would be right.

Unless they redesign these units. Personally I'd like to see them armed with Javelins. I wonder what that would do?

Gatsby
10-02-2011, 07:46
cavalry aren't dead.... they just have a different role.... just like battleships aren't dead... they just have a new role... museums.

unless they intend to re-cost cavalry for everyone, cavalry based lists are pretty much dead.

IGoblinego
10-02-2011, 12:11
Ogre Rhinox Riders never die!

(oh wait they haven't never officialy born....right)

Lord of the End Times
10-02-2011, 12:53
As many people have said, cavalry isn't dead but just needs a bit more finesse to use. My most successful unit using my bretonnians is 15 knights of the realm with full command and the battle standard bearer. this unit has a static combat resolution of 6, 4 extra ranks and invariably controls the charge, enough to bring the pain on most things. If an enemy is really deep I just combine them with 10 ranks of men at arms, usually does the trick. Small units of cavalry are now relegated to a supporting role against infantry blocks IMHO though, although they have other uses.

Urgat
10-02-2011, 13:25
Iirc, second rank mounts don't strike. That's like a major weakness especially for boar riders.

ROCKY
10-02-2011, 16:23
I think something is missing here. Namely that a boar boy would be faster than a Chaos Warrior and thus flee and pursue more quickly. That does count for something.

Anyway, I think I worked out that Boar Boyz were about 5 points overpriced in 7th edition. So lowering the cost to 16 seems about right though they could go as low as 15. Though it does depend on other changed to the Orc army itself such as animosity.

except when a chaos unit has sopophoric musk and you flee discarding the highest roll ^_^ in which case you will be run down, also this is a very bad comparison. chaos warriors are there to kill, hounds, horsemen, discs, booby worms, and Justin B are there to run your butt down.

giant stegadon
10-02-2011, 23:19
You also have to remember there's going to be a group always declaring X is dead whatever edition it is. I think its more they refuse to adjust how they use X or their more concerned with super min/maxing.

Stonewyrm
11-02-2011, 08:28
My Cavalry still kills a lot more models than my infantry (WoC,Brets). With Brets that's obvious but with WoC it was suprising. My Chaos Knights may not break a lot of steadfast units but while they flank a block and then wait for my infantry to catch up and "un-steadfast" them they rack up a lot of dead models.

I know that just killing models wont get me anywhere, the blocks have to break and get run down to get points and Cavalry is not as good at that because of the lack of static CR. But they still rack up the highest headcount while being very hard to kill. They have the speed to reach behind the enemy lines and take down warmachines ect. as well as getting flank and rear charges to deny attacks back. All my armies have at least 2 units of heavy cav (or Stegs) and they still win me games.

No they are not dead.

HAMMERSTACHE
12-02-2011, 02:17
Also, as the newer army books come out, I'm expecting massive point drops in the less valuable cav units. Heck, boar boys are now eight slaves while savage ones are nine!

Rogzor87
12-02-2011, 04:00
I know when the New O&G book comes out i'm going to be fielding Mostly spider themed armies. I currently have 50 spider riders. Maybe I should Horde it up (: