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yshabash
11-02-2011, 01:32
As the title suggests I want to know if you would let me use forge world rules. I am talking specifically about an IG variant. I am leaning towards kreig but am also considering elysians, regular and tallarn. That also bring me to my second question for you (if you can answer this one) which variant (or regular) of IG do you think is best? Explain your reasoning as much as possible. Thank you very much.

impala
11-02-2011, 01:35
I have no problem with Forgeworld rules. As to which IG is the best, I have no idea.

baphomael
11-02-2011, 01:41
I'd have no problem, notably because I'd be wanting to use the Tyrant's Legion list anyways so I'd be a bit of a hypocrite :p

Aiwass
11-02-2011, 01:43
Yes i would. Actually, GW is becoming BANDAI and Forgeworld the true 40k, so I have no problem with FW rules.

Inquisitor Engel
11-02-2011, 02:19
Yes i would. Actually, GW is becoming BANDAI and Forgeworld the true 40k, so I have no problem with FW rules.

An interesting take, sir!

I wouldn't have any problem with a whole FW list or using FW-approved units in games (those in the IA books). I often use FW units as stand-ins for GW ones (all my Crisis Suits in my Tau army are XV-89s) because the models really are beautiful.

This doesn't extend to competitive games though. FW's lists (and units in general) are designed in the context of the book they're presented in. They range from fairly well balanced to CRAZY powerful. They're not meant to be used in tournaments, plain and simple.

Spacker
11-02-2011, 02:26
Personally no problem from me - but I'm biased, given that I have a truck load of FW stuff :)

Stormfather
11-02-2011, 02:37
Forgeworld? Bring it on!

yshabash
11-02-2011, 02:38
Thank you for the comments so far! I also have a question to ask of anyone that is able of answering it, what is vanilla guard?

Mannimarco
11-02-2011, 02:45
Not only would I allow you to (hypocritical if I didnt as im running a servants of decay from IA 7 list) but I would actively encourage you to and point out to any naysayers how it opens the game up and provides a lot of new units. Remember that new units = new options = new gameplay. It keeps the game interesting if you arnt fighting the same lists time and time again. Nothing makes the game quite as stagnant as "and heres fat dave....fat dave with his blood angels....the same fat dave with the same blood angels I fought last week.....has he....nope its the exact same list, oh joy".

DKOK are an interesting army; there are several people on here who play them and many have painting logs so there will be plenty of inspiration to draw on. There has been a few good discussions about them with some sound tactics detailing a few of their builds, some of which are surprisingly powerful if not as hyper competitive as codex guard. They are actually one of the more common guard lists (compared to elysians) so they dont really have the same "wow factor" when you put them on the table. The list plays completely different to the codex list so dont buy into this "if nobody likes it then just switch it around to a codex list and your ok".

"Vanilla guard" just means "standard guard". Vanilla basically being basic and average, nothing overly fancy.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
11-02-2011, 02:46
I don't mind the FW at all. I encourage my friends to go Caestus instead of pretending their 'nilla marines can use a 'raven.

DuskRaider
11-02-2011, 03:35
Coming from a FWaholic, I would let you use FW everyday of the week.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-02-2011, 05:26
I'm ok with FW rules. As to the second part of your post, take a serious look at Tallarn. It's an army you don't see that often on the gaming tables, thus making yours should you get one very unique.

Toadius80
11-02-2011, 06:17
As everyone else, I also don't have a prob with fw list. Make a nice change and shows a little thought and effort. You may find the different specialisation of the different guard fw list a little bit of work against some opponents, but usually it's not a huge issue.
The death corps list is possibly the best guard list out at the mo IMHO.
Though I must say that Codex:Imperial guard is still a pretty mighty list.

Hendarion
11-02-2011, 06:22
If you'd let me field FW in return, I won't have any problem with it. Even in games where I'm not taking any, I'd allow you too as I'd hope you would allow me to use mine even if you aren't using yours ;)

Azzy
11-02-2011, 08:07
As the title suggests I want to know if you would let me use forge world rules. I am talking specifically about an IG variant. I am leaning towards kreig but am also considering elysians, regular and tallarn. That also bring me to my second question for you (if you can answer this one) which variant (or regular) of IG do you think is best? Explain your reasoning as much as possible. Thank you very much.

The only time I think I'd have a problem with FW rules is bringing Superheavies, Fliers and the like into a regular game (without specifically arranging for this before hand). Other than that it wouldn't really be an issue with me.

Of course it's better to ask the people that you'll actually be gaming against rather than us here online. ;)

As for the IG variants... I really love the look of the Elysians and I also dig the Vahallans (I once consider do them, but the all metal troops turned me off). I agree that the Tallarn are hardly ever seen... I know one player that collects Mordians (hasn't ever fielded them, though) and another who plays with Praetorians.

daboarder
11-02-2011, 08:12
I'm all for FW rules with the dubious exception of the Achilles and the Lucifer drop pod.

Lowmans
11-02-2011, 08:27
Yes.

So my renegades can make the sweet, sweet loving to your guard. ;)

As for what's best..... Clearly the answer is Vraksian renegades.

From your list I would say DKoK edge it over Elysians, for me.

They've got some of the very best infantry models (basic dudes, Grenadiers and combat engineers are all awesome).

Fantastic unique(ish) gear - Centaurs (Bren gun carrier) is one of the best looking things made by FW IMHO. Plus some lovely arty models.

Incredibly cool character model in the Quartermaster (cue evil laugh).

Unique and funky playstyle....

Did I miss anything..... Yes, I did - Death Rider dudes.... Pure class.

mughi3
11-02-2011, 08:59
I cannot stop you, other than refusing to play a game agianst you. FW is a legal part of GW and part of 40K. my LGS group allows FW all the time so it really is a non issue. so would i allow you to use it is kind of a "duh" question.

In the end it depends onthe group you play with. some people have negative pre-conceived notions about FW even before they play with/against it.

Lion El Jason
11-02-2011, 09:34
Yep, agree with the majority. It says in black & white right there in the imperial armour books that FW models are not considered "Optional" or "Variant" models, the books are all GW books made for 40k so you don't need anyones permission.

Its usually best to point out what you have though, I think springing surprises on someone may be a bit unsportsmanlike.

So really the question isn't "Would you let me use FW" as nobody has any right to stop you...
More you're asking "Would you play against my forgeworld stuff?" and anyone who says no should be taken outside for a shoeing and then have the concepts of "Game" and "fun" explained to them.
Also Forgeworld do a lot more playtesting than GW so their stuff is actually much more balanced, they also kind of have to prove that, so some of their models are actually overcosted on purpose so there could be no complaints.
"You think this is powerful... it costs X!"
"The model costs X, but its so awesome I'll pay the extra points anyway!"

jt.glass
11-02-2011, 09:44
I'm going to join the chorus and say "of course"!

I've never quite understood the notion that a lot of people have that FW stuff is somehow special and different; AFAIC one GW publication is as good as another. You don't get threads saying "would you play against the Ork Codex, do you? :confused:


jt.

Baragash
11-02-2011, 09:53
Ofc. Working on Vraksian lists myself, then plan to do Astral Claws (C: SM) and adding units to use the Tyrant's Legion list.

Hypaspist
11-02-2011, 09:59
Well I'm currently building a Dreadmob list, so I'd be a complete Hypocrite if I were to say no!

However on a more generic note, I think that the Forgeworld lists give a really nice variety to the game, (which is never a bad thing). They are very well thought out, and even when there are lists with incredibly sparkly goodies... the points (as stated previously) are a good limiting factor.

I would be more than happy to play against more Forgeworld lists on a regular basis. :)

Bunnahabhain
11-02-2011, 11:30
No Flyers or super heavies without notice. Past that, of course.

I have a fair amount of it myself, in resin, kitbashes of GW/3rd party plastics, or scratchbuilds.

It's fun to use, and if people have no idea what you're going to bring, it keeps a whole load of variety in the game..... Oh, I've brought the 9 heavy mortar list.... now am I playing the logan-wing or green tide?

orkmiester
11-02-2011, 11:42
i would, my regular opponents like to have fun and regularly pull stunts, one uses some chaos stuff that is awesome indeed.

i have to admit though i did 'accidentally' decide to try a baneblade in 2000 pts in a 5 way game, they were a little suprised (why didn't i think of that came up!) and shock when i showed them that i could use the big template for the main cannon (IA1 update you see someone disagreed until i showed him the self same rules he had been using a few weeks before) other than that it was fun and everyone enjoyed the game. By the way some cheeky nurgle marine git blew the damm thing up on turn two by rolling this lmao 6,6,5 on the table suffice to say we all laughed.

i am considering getting the ork warboss on a warbike though its very cool and i want to do some nobz bikers to go alongside him (i'll use the plastic bikers for those)

Mini77
11-02-2011, 12:41
As a club we have a blanket allowance on IA units (barring Superheavies/Flyers). As many have said it encourages people to try different things and keeps it varied. We've always taken the line that if you have the models, why not be free to use them.

Wade Wilson
11-02-2011, 12:51
I would love to play against someone with forgeworld models. Alas in my gaming group they are not very popular(or at least i havnt had luck finding anyone with them)but the models look fantastic and the rules seem fair (overpowered but hey you pay for it) :)

Brother Loki
11-02-2011, 14:31
Absolutely. I honestly can't understand the 'codex only' mindset.

Erwos
11-02-2011, 14:46
I'm all for FW rules with the dubious exception of the Achilles and the Lucifer drop pod.
You have unfortunately just touched a sore point of mine. I have a bunch of friends who "love FW", but promptly say no if I bring something that's not in the codex. I'm not advocating Deathstorm Drop Pod spam, but take a position that's not completely arbitrary, please. "You can take FW, but only if it screws you" is a pretty lame position.

That's what I'm naturally suspicious when I read threads like this. I'd rather hear when you've said no, not just a claim that you've said yes.


Yep, agree with the majority. It says in black & white right there in the imperial armour books that FW models are not considered "Optional" or "Variant" models, the books are all GW books made for 40k so you don't need anyones permission.
FW explicitly reversed this position in IA:Apoc and/or IA:Apoc 2, probably after someone at GW proper kicked them in the ass for writing in the first place. Moreover, the books have "expansion" written all over the front now. They're clearly optional, unless you think I can force you to use Spearhead rules, too.

Cheeslord
11-02-2011, 15:05
In my experience FW is generally better balanced than core GW codices. Thats said they occasionally do something really stupid and nobody seems to notice (I'm thinking of the Damocles Rhino rules for Apocalypse specifically - then again our Apocalypse is heavily houseruled anyway)

Mark.

Mannimarco
11-02-2011, 15:14
You have unfortunately just touched a sore point of mine. I have a bunch of friends who "love FW", but promptly say no if I bring something that's not in the codex. I'm not advocating Deathstorm Drop Pod spam, but take a position that's not completely arbitrary, please. "You can take FW, but only if it screws you" is a pretty lame position.

That's what I'm naturally suspicious when I read threads like this. I'd rather hear when you've said no, not just a claim that you've said yes.


FW explicitly reversed this position in IA:Apoc and/or IA:Apoc 2, probably after someone at GW proper kicked them in the ass for writing in the first place. Moreover, the books have "expansion" written all over the front now. They're clearly optional, unless you think I can force you to use Spearhead rules, too.

Its nice to see more Vraksian lists appearing.

Erwos, buddy I know you use this stuff and speak from personal experience and not the usual mantra of "I know a guy who played a guy who read about a guy on the net and besides, its optional because thats the way its always been so thats the way it is".

Im not a fan of this "You can take FW, but only if it screws you" position, I much prefer "I'll play your FW stuff but only if its not the (admittedly few) sickeningly overpowered things that could screw the game up for your opponent". Much in the same way as I might say "yeah Ill play your IG list if its not crammed full of the sickeningly overpowered things that could screw the game up for your opponent". Cheese is cheese, whether it comes from a codex or an IA book and Im going to decline a game against a cheesy list whether its codex or IA book citing opponents consent and I dont consent to getting my ass handed to me by a cheese list, sorry its just not fun.

Its an interesting paradox: to completely switch from "its part of the universe so feel free to use it, if you have permission to play a game you have permission to use the vehicles in this book" to "the codex is official, everything else is up to you and your opponent to decide upon before you start playing". Unfortunately this has given some players the idea of "no you cant use it, its opponents consent and Im saying no, no im not going to look at your book to see if its overpowered or anything. Opponents consent and im sayng no so jog on". The thing is the entire game is opponents consent anyway: Nobody can force anybody to play anything they dont want to (which I could cos im pretty big and im good with knots but I digress ;)) but because the IA books actually use the words opponents consent and the core rule book does not then we have the belief that you can knock back anything from IA but not core rulebook. Seriously whens the last time you seen "hmm Orks......nah I dont want to play against orks right now and the game is opponents consent anyway so no im not playing you, no im not going to look at your codex to see if they are overpowered. Opponents consent and Im saying no so jog on".

And yes while spearhead/planetstrike/apocalypse/IA books all have "expansion" plastered on the front of them I put it to you that theres a difference between them. A codex guard army playing a codex orks army in a planetstrike game will still present a lot more new stuff to learn than an IA DKOK list playing against a codex ork list in a standard game. Its a small difference but worth mentioning that there should be a distinction between "expansion rules to make the core game different" and "expansion units and army lists to be used with the core game".

But yes in a thread like this I love hearing why people have knocked back a game against this stuff and trying to provide a counter point to their reasoning. The most common (after its opponents consent) are "its not GW" and "its all cheesy and overpowered and not playtested properly" and "because its apocalypse only and I dont want to play apocalypse".

Shadow Reaper
11-02-2011, 16:23
Absolutely, I would.

Ville
11-02-2011, 16:36
As the title suggests I want to know if you would let me use forge world rules. I am talking specifically about an IG variant. I am leaning towards kreig but am also considering elysians, regular and tallarn. That also bring me to my second question for you (if you can answer this one) which variant (or regular) of IG do you think is best? Explain your reasoning as much as possible. Thank you very much.

Go right ahead, man! A little variety never hurts.

I don't know much about the variant IG lists, but I am under the impression that you can get the most powerful (and predictable:o) builds with the vanilla Guard, due to their wide range of troops, equipment and vehicles.

madden
11-02-2011, 16:54
I have no problems with FW stuff as long as I can read the rules of things first so no nasty shocks, this is due to the fact that I can get my hands on the codexs but not the IA books and I'm not going to shell out 50 odd quid per book on the off chance someone will use it while I'm there and want a battle, I think this is the main reason people dislike FW rules in pick up games.

ColShaw
11-02-2011, 17:04
I personally like the thought of going up against a Krieg force, or one of the Badab War lists. I think it'd be fun.

Super-heavies, of course, generally have no business outside Apocalypse, but that holds for the plastic kits as well as the FW ones.

Asher
11-02-2011, 17:08
Certainly!

Honestly, I'm quite frustrated that still so many turnament organizers are banning FW rules.

Sure, there are some questinable units like the Drop Pod you can assault out of, etc.; but there are also lots of characterful lists and units.

Lord_Squinty
11-02-2011, 17:22
Yep as long as you weren't ripping the a*53 out of it with things that were clearly broken like the drop pods.

Although - why are you asking a random bunch of people on t'interweb??
Surely you would be better asking people you are actually likely to play?!?!?

Baragash
11-02-2011, 17:52
Im not a fan of this "You can take FW, but only if it screws you" position, I much prefer "I'll play your FW stuff but only if its not the (admittedly few) sickeningly overpowered things that could screw the game up for your opponent". Much in the same way as I might say "yeah Ill play your IG list if its not crammed full of the sickeningly overpowered things that could screw the game up for your opponent". Cheese is cheese, whether it comes from a codex or an IA book and Im going to decline a game against a cheesy list whether its codex or IA book citing opponents consent and I dont consent to getting my ass handed to me by a cheese list, sorry its just not fun.

:yes: And some words

Shnerg
11-02-2011, 18:20
I'm one of the many people who sing choruses of praise for FW rules. FW is the better one. All I see GW as is a bad prequel, like The Phantom Menace.

Still Standing
11-02-2011, 18:33
Of course you can use FW rules. I never understood why people would object to it, except maybe out of some misguided sense of subconscious jealousy.

As to the best type of Guard... I have a Krieg army, a Tallarn army, a Vostroyan army, and a small Elysian force. So pick one of those. :)

Col. Dash
11-02-2011, 18:34
Super heavies aside, I say bring it. Let me know in advance and I wouldnt have a problem with fliers either.

Chem-Dog
11-02-2011, 19:34
An interesting take, sir!

I wouldn't have any problem with a whole FW list or using FW-approved units in games (those in the IA books). I often use FW units as stand-ins for GW ones (all my Crisis Suits in my Tau army are XV-89s) because the models really are beautiful.

This doesn't extend to competitive games though. FW's lists (and units in general) are designed in the context of the book they're presented in. They range from fairly well balanced to CRAZY powerful. They're not meant to be used in tournaments, plain and simple.


Sums it up for me but the FW argument will rage forever.
Personally I'm all for using FW variant lists, I'd even be happy to let you run a FW army without the models (pending acceptable, unconfusing proxies) but FW models are "ringers" and can sometimes mess the game up. I myself have refrained from using various FW kits because they were a little bit OTT.

Curiously this question pops up most of the time, seldom do we hear "can I uses Elysians as regular Guard" or "Can I use FW Variant Tank X as a regular Codex Tank Y".

Still Standing
11-02-2011, 19:38
GW rules also go from "fairly well balances" to "CRAZY powerful". Are you telling me that Repentia and Stormshield Terminators are equally well balanced?

Navar
11-02-2011, 19:55
I 100% would. I am working on a Siege Assault list out of IA 10 right now, and plan on doing a Vraksian Nurgle list from IA 7 as well. I think they are fantastic and I don't get the "codex only" crowd either.

Also to everyone who is saying "the Achilles is broken" you need to look at the changes from the play test article to the actual entry in IA 10. (more or less it costs more points and only takes -1 from penetrating hits.) They are extensively play tested and they actually listen to the feedback they receive from the player base.

I am down with FW being the true 40k (epically so if some of the rumors about Codex: Grey Knights turn out to be true.)

Based on the two posters above me what FW rules are "CRAZY powerful" with the exception of a couple of drop pods that are easily abused?
(I feel the need to add that this is a genuine question as I only really know the FW stuff from IA 6 or so on, though I have heard about Lucius pattern and deathwind Drop Pods.)

Avatar_exADV
11-02-2011, 20:14
The biggest problem I have with it is validation. I'm not familiar with the Forge World books I don't own (i.e. almost all of them) and the army lists they have aren't just including new units, but also excluding certain older ones, and with different options for certain units.

For example, in the IA 8 list, boyz can't take a nob. You can take a Mek, but that still leaves you with no bosspole and no PK. In the context of the list it makes sense, and boyz aren't your troops of choice in a dread mob list in the first place. But does my opponent KNOW that? If I just plop a dread mob down on the table and say "this is all out of IA 8", is he going to know "oh hey, there's no PK hidden in the boyz squad!" or is he going to treat it like it's got the usual nob in it? For that matter, if I put the nob in there even though it's illegal to do so, is he going to know to call me out on it?

In a situation where you're among buddies, and you've got the book handy, and you're willing to tell them the ins and outs of certain units BEFORE the game, that doesn't pose a problem at all. But we've all seen the guy who goes into a game and claims that his entire Marine army has Feel No Pain, or that a particular unit has stats it definitely isn't supposed to have, or a special rule that it doesn't have but would be really convenient if it did.

Using Forge World lists means my opponent has a lot more opportunity to pull that kind of thing off, and I wouldn't know when he was trying to pull a fast one. Either the game bogs down as I'm constantly flipping through his rule book, or I'm getting blindsided by units with rules I didn't know existed. (Or I end up running against a list that has all the advantages of a Forge World army list, but the disadvantages are overlooked...)

I mean, if you hadn't actually seen the Land Raider Achilles statistics, would you believe it? 14 all around, immune to melta, immune to lance, -1 on damage rolls ("what do you mean, it CAN'T explode?") If the first time I saw that thing was after I'd fired three dark lances into it, I'd be pretty unhappy with my opponent.

So would I play someone with a Forge World list full of models I'd never seen before? Only if I had the opportunity to check out the list first, against the book, hopefully with helpful explanation from my opponent. I mean, it's not that so many of the items are broken, but my ability to call shenanigans is reduced by a lot. Not that the people I play with are prone to pull fast ones or anything, but that all comes down to trusting the guy across the table.

Navar
11-02-2011, 20:33
Well to be fair, if someone sat down across from me with a Tau or Eldar list for example then I would be equally ill prepared to deal with them as I would a Dread mob list. (As I don't own IA 8) I know about Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Witchhunters, etc. because they are played in my club, but noone plays Tau or Eldar.

If, Avatar, your point is that you know every codex backward and forward then that is awesome. I don't think that is the norm however.

With that said I am one of the types that when I sit down to play I bring a list generated by Army Builder (TM) for my opponent (and one for myself as well) and go over every one of my units with my opponent to make sure they understand what is what. "This is the first tactical squad on my army list. They are Combat Squadded and the sergeant and 4 normal bolter marines are in this Razorback while the other 5 have been deployed here", etc.

LonelyPath
11-02-2011, 21:10
I always find myself up against people using FW models and rules so it's welcome on the table against me :)

FashaTheDog
11-02-2011, 21:53
As far as Forgeworld goes, I generally like hitting things I've never seen before and I trust my opponents to be honest, so the possibility I'm being cheated along the way never crosses my mind. I have yet to get any books past Krieg (Games Day will remedy that) and if I were to get a pick up game against one of the new books with units I have yet to have even seen the rules or, I'd be giddy in anticipation over it. Getting back into Fantasy since 3rd edition has been quite a treat in that respect for me, so this is clearly a mentality I have for all games. However, I digress.

There are probably only four units from Forgeworld I would disallow outside of large games (~10,000 points) or specific scenarios and those are the Greater Daemons whose point values were determined entirely by fluff and not what the unit can do. Past that, if someone presented a list for a pickup game against me any Forgeworld units would be allowed as long as it fit in the FOC. As for super-heavies, if there is a FOC spot for it then I see no problem with using it. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the Gorgon in the Krieg Armored Battle Group and anyone fielding one of those in 1,850 is severely handicapping themselves for fluff. And flyers are annoying to face without anti-air, but still fun and different. In fact, I wish more people used them so more people would bring anti-air to the table. As to the army lists, there are a few strong builds, but overall most of the lists are weaker than their contemporary codices, especially if you start taking things because they are cool and not optimizing for pure effectiveness.

Havock
11-02-2011, 23:34
This doesn't extend to competitive games though. FW's lists (and units in general) are designed in the context of the book they're presented in. They range from fairly well balanced to CRAZY powerful. They're not meant to be used in tournaments, plain and simple.

That makes them different exactly how from normal codex armies?
GW doesn't playtest for ****, the difference between FW and GW is that one has the mindset of "what do we want to sell/push hard?" and the other "what would be fun/appropriate for it".

While they made some (massively) overpowered stuff, alot of the time they sort of fixed it (see also: infernus shells, which were hilarious to pop on someone's head, once, and then houserule it) FW sort of assumes you are mature enough not to take advantage of it in an unsporting way.
In tournaments, pretend it actually has to do anything with skill as your spanking new (codex-legal!) Blood Angels effortlessly shred a (codex-legal!) Necron army.

Mannimarco
12-02-2011, 00:16
That makes them different exactly how from normal codex armies?
GW doesn't playtest for ****, the difference between FW and GW is that one has the mindset of "what do we want to sell/push hard?" and the other "what would be fun/appropriate for it".

While they made some (massively) overpowered stuff, alot of the time they sort of fixed it (see also: infernus shells, which were hilarious to pop on someone's head, once, and then houserule it) FW sort of assumes you are mature enough not to take advantage of it in an unsporting way.
In tournaments, pretend it actually has to do anything with skill as your spanking new (codex-legal!) Blood Angels effortlessly shred a (codex-legal!) Necron army.


I approve of this message, from the GW playtesting issues (its funny people still maintain GW playtest their stuff much better than FW) to the comparison of GW sales mentality of "ramp up the power level then watch the people rush out to buy it (REF: how many people bought a carnifex for 4th ed? how many shelved them to buy trygons for 5th) to FW sales mentality of "make it look freaking uber cool so the people will rush out and buy it". If your buying FW models for the most part your not going to be doing it because theyre super powerful uber mega units that will win you the game with no talent or skill involved. Look at some of the stuff coming out these days: Theres an increasing amount of units who will win you the game not through any tactical acumen you may possess but simply because they are incredibly powerful and a no brainer choice because of simply being really powerful, undercosted or with an abusive rule set.

As the power level of codex units increases (lets not kid ourselves on here) the previously "cheesy broken not playtested FW stuff" isnt really that bad after all.

Fair point about it not being for use in a tournament though, given the choice between codex guard and DKOK I know who Id be taking, the IA8 dredd mob and codex orks, the 3 renegade lists from IA 5-7 or codex guard, the red scorpions or codex SW or BA. As much as I love the lists (and I do) if I was to go to a tourny I wouldnt take them cos.....well Id like to have a chance at winning it.

MajorWesJanson
12-02-2011, 02:29
My vote would be sure, with the caveat of advanced warning, as if we are playing FW, I would love to use some of mine as well.

TheMav80
12-02-2011, 03:13
On the subject of being familiar with rules for things, reminded me of something funny (to me at least).

Met a guy not too long back that was new to the game store. Only played with his mates...none of whom played Space Marines (of the non-spikey sort). So he had no idea what any of the standard Space Marine stuff did. Had never seen a Landspeeder before, for example.

It was...surreal.

Dwane Diblie
12-02-2011, 03:44
There is only 1 thing from FW I will not play against and that is a furioso in a dread drop pod. Way too powerful in my oppinion. Put that down to bad experiance. But anything else is fun to play against/with reguardless of who is wining.

TheLaughingGod
12-02-2011, 03:44
Yes. Any sane person who isn't a WAAC cheese monkey neckbeard will let you use all FW stuff.

It's just as officially as the GW stuff. Don't let anyone tell you different.

FabricatorGeneralMike
12-02-2011, 03:48
I have no-problem and actively encourage it. Only thing is if you take super heavys or titans then I get to take mine also.


I would rather play againsted a nicely modeled and painted forgeworld army( I find most people paint there FW stuff as apposed to the usual SM grey legion of this week BA's next week SW's in two months GK's.) then the usual suspects at a GW. I guess since the guys I play againsted most of the time own FW armies ( WE army which is freaking nice looking) and DG army I have np playing againsted it.

If it was a pick up game in a FLGS I would still have np with it as long as I can look over your list and you explain or show me the rules for units with which im unfamalor with.

I find that if you talk to your opponent before a game instead of just jumping into a pick up game, both players will have a more enjoyable time.

Firmlog
12-02-2011, 06:05
For some reason when I read the title to this thread I though: "Would you let me use forge world rules? I'd let me use forge world rules." Then Some skinny dude pulls out lipstick and dances in front of the mirror.

Yes and no. In Apocolypse I say anthing goes; as alt. model proxy as long as it was clear what the models were, generally I'd say no Problem. As standard games of FW rules vs. GW rules in a pick up game, I'd usually shy away from. Not that I don't like the idea of using them but I don't have any of the books, never really read through them, don't know them and would have fears of cheating and problems with target priority in all likelyhood. Many players play a denial of information game to "win" and that can feel off putting.

In a game with a regular play I know, as fun games, why not. I know their playstyle and gaming behaviors. And I can adjust accordingly. I know if I ask about something they'll tell me the what, how, why and when of the rules. Also if I was also using FW rules, no problem.

This goes in line with playing friends with "homebrew" lists. In a pick up game, no way. Against a regular opponent of course. I have been thinking of suggesting a demon player to build and set up an army in standard fashion instead of the usual drop demon list to see how it would play out.

The Highlander
12-02-2011, 11:07
As long as you ask me beforehand and let me have a look at the rules (assuming I donít know them already) then Iím happy for you to bring anything you want.

Castigator
12-02-2011, 12:03
I think the FW-guys make it pretty clear by themselves.

yshabash
12-02-2011, 16:13
wow guys incredible! Probably going to go ahead with the kreig list. I only have one regret... WHY DID THEY TAKE THE PRELIMINARY BOMBARD RULE AWAY FROM KREIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh yeah right cause it was hilariously op :D. There's one for all of you that say play testing never happens for like 100 points I could make a str9 ap 2 d6 hits on every squad in your whole army. Oh well it was fun while it lasted :D

Mannimarco
12-02-2011, 16:35
For some reason when I read the title to this thread I though: "Would you let me use forge world rules? I'd let me use forge world rules." Then Some skinny dude pulls out lipstick and dances in front of the mirror.

Yes and no. In Apocolypse I say anthing goes; as alt. model proxy as long as it was clear what the models were, generally I'd say no Problem. As standard games of FW rules vs. GW rules in a pick up game, I'd usually shy away from. Not that I don't like the idea of using them but I don't have any of the books, never really read through them, don't know them and would have fears of cheating and problems with target priority in all likelyhood. Many players play a denial of information game to "win" and that can feel off putting.

In a game with a regular play I know, as fun games, why not. I know their playstyle and gaming behaviors. And I can adjust accordingly. I know if I ask about something they'll tell me the what, how, why and when of the rules. Also if I was also using FW rules, no problem.

This goes in line with playing friends with "homebrew" lists. In a pick up game, no way. Against a regular opponent of course. I have been thinking of suggesting a demon player to build and set up an army in standard fashion instead of the usual drop demon list to see how it would play out.

Excellent movie reference there. "Id let me me use FW rules, Id let me use FW rules hard" walking away from the camera backwards and opening an IA book as Goodbye Horses playes in the background.

Theres always that fear that your opponent will spring some new and unheard of rule from his IA book that you never expected so there might be some trepidation about actually allowing them but isnt this the same as playing against a new codex? Denial of information to win exists in obscure codexes and IA books from people who will play an uncommon list and "oh yeah that squad now has an invulnerable save now cos....faith points! and that one you killed last turn? well here she is deepstriking onto the board again! faith points!" Flippant remarks aside I havnt played SOB, I know they have faith points but havnt got a clue what they do or how they are used, if you buy them with points or gain them in some other way. I could (but never would) refuse to play them because I dont know their rules, instead I would ask to see the codex before the game and during the game if anything "funny" started happening. If we use the blanket refusal of "I dont know it so you cant use it" for IA then we must also do the same for the codex stuff we are unsure of, we must refuse to play the new DE when they were released because we didnt know their rules 100%. We should have refused to play daemons because they have a new style of deployment rules. I may even refuse to play some marine armies because even after all this time their owners still dont know how ATSKNF works.



wow guys incredible! Probably going to go ahead with the kreig list. I only have one regret... WHY DID THEY TAKE THE PRELIMINARY BOMBARD RULE AWAY FROM KREIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh yeah right cause it was hilariously op :D. There's one for all of you that say play testing never happens for like 100 points I could make a str9 ap 2 d6 hits on every squad in your whole army. Oh well it was fun while it lasted :D


I for one look forward to the army list.

riotknight
12-02-2011, 17:41
I think the idea that someone can bust out an army I've never seen or read the rules for is awesome. Why? Because it adds a bit of cool unintended narrative to the game.
"Alright here is my Space Mehrine army. What are you playing...wait, WTF IS THAT?!"
"Oh that? That's a breaching drill"
"Cool! My Marines have never faced an army with one before! This will test their tactical acumen!"

Or some such thing. Also, I'm doing a heavily FW influenced Tau army, most of my friends have no problem with it. The only caveat (and this is just my personal pet peeve) is if they don't have the book, I don't want to play them. If I have to take their word for it (in any environment), I'm more inclined to lean towards the side that they can easily cheat or misunderstand the rules. (this goes towards any book really though. Most stores have copies of codex's to look up, I don't think ANY have IA books for public use. WD lists etc as well).

I do agree that in Tournaments it should be monitored, even though MOST FW stuff is over costed on purpose (XV9s are cheap so long as you don't give them anything but the Burst Cannons + Target lock)

Lord_Squinty
12-02-2011, 23:25
If, Avatar, your point is that you know every codex backward and forward then that is awesome. I don't think that is the norm however.


I would disagree, from my experience I've found that most gamers do know every codex (and most buy every codex purely on a know thy enemy basis).
Maybe not every rule and every weapon - but at least 99% of the stuff most gamers are familiar with.

Only buying and learning certain codexes certainly seems strange to me... :wtf:

Erazmus_M_Wattle
12-02-2011, 23:32
See for a friendly game I see no problem. It just adds to the narrative of the games. So yeah I would.

Reinholt
12-02-2011, 23:32
My thoughts on this one...

I am against fliers and super-heavies outside of apocalypse.

I'm usually fine with playing against FW stuff, but if I don't know what it is, I'm going to want to take a careful read through first and then probably ask about 8 million questions about the list before we play, as I want to make sure I understand what everything is and how it works. So as long as you are willing to explain, I don't have a problem with it.

I will have a problem with people who are bringing stuff from books I haven't seen and don't know well, and don't have the book with them. If you are going to use something, I think it is incumbent upon you to also bring the rules for the other person to see. That point is not specific to FW, though.

Last, I would echo the point that the latest FW stuff (Badab, IA8, etc) seem to actually be more interesting to me than GW stuff lately. I really like what FW is doing with adding flexibility to the game (often in ways that really should have been in the core book to begin with, like a lot of the marine variants in IA9) without going over the top on most stuff.

So, in short, yes, minus super-heavies and fliers.

Nezalhualixtlan
13-02-2011, 01:50
No to fliers and super-heavies outside of Apocalypse, or a super-heavy as per the Spearhead expansion rules, or the one Battle Mission scenario that opens them up. For non-super-heavies / flyers, probably so long as it was a friendly game. If it was a competitive game that counted for something I'd have no problem with you using FW models so long as your list was legal per whatever armies Codex you were using, but the list would have to be Codex legal and the units in it would need to be using those legal rules and roughly the right size for TLoS. In a tournament, I'd be fine so long as we were all using whatever the tournament said was legal and we all agreed to in order to play it FW or no-FW.

FashaTheDog
13-02-2011, 01:57
Many people complain that they would play against any Forgeworld that is not a flyer or super-heavy. I can understand the flyers to a degree, but what is the issue with super-heavies?

To my knowledge the only super-heavy that can be taken as part of a standard FOC is the Gorgon. As I stated in my prior post, I have some catching up to do with the Imperial Armour past Krieg, but what are these other super-heavies that can be taken in a regular FOC? All others, such as Baneblades, Titans, and the like all lack a place on the FOC. Only in Spearhead can you field one of those normally and I have yet to hear any complaints about a super-heavy in Spearhead. Am I missing something?

LoreDraconis
13-02-2011, 02:12
All others, such as Baneblades, Titans, and the like all lack a place on the FOC.

That was my understanding too...so it seems rules wise that its pretty cut and dry. If something is sanctioned for normal 40k, it clearly states which FoC slot it occupies. If it has no FoC slot, then you can't field it...seems simple enough to me.

As for the rest, if it's chapter approved then it's clearly rules legal expansion material for the regular 40k game.

I think people dont like including it because they dont want to adapt their strategies to how FW changes some parts of the meta-game. But by that logic you should just ban all new codex releases too. The biggest issue is that tournaments have for some reason set the precedent of making FW illegal by blanket statement.

I wish GW would give some kind of decree for people to cut the crap and stop cherry-picking rule-sets, at least when it involves tournaments.

Firmlog
13-02-2011, 02:13
I don't think the issue is super heavies and such. It would seem more relevant for non-super heavy vehicles and specialized units. Also not the models but the rules for the models as published by Forgeworld.

These admittedly cool vehicles and units (that what forgeworld is, cool unusual stuff) and the rules for them which may or may not diverge significantly from established GW rules. My take on that is while the rule of cool is seemingly fun I've seen it taken too far. Sometimes for the sake of "narative" sometimes to make things more efficient.

For example: Many if not most of the vehicles GW makes for standard armies are inefficient vehicles. Some weapons are meant for killing tanks, some for small units of elite troops and some for horde units. Often one or more of these weapons would be wasteful in firing at a particular enemy. Take the Leman Russ Battle Tank. If you fire at a vehicle, in all likelihood the heavy bolters won't be much use. Is this the way it always is, no, some vehicles like the predator annihilator have weapons for which all are targeted for a specific task. I personally worry how "efficient" some of these vehicles are, especially since I've never actually read any of the rules.

In a pick up game, narrative will likely not even be an issue, as it will most likely be a competitive game or a game of social interaction, meeting new players. Constantly springing up new (possibly) unheard of rules during such a game tends to create schisms in the social interactions, in my experience. I find this especially true in Warma-hordes where rules can vary so drastically. That is the concern with specialized rules from other companies or fandex's.

Mannimarco
13-02-2011, 02:46
These admittedly cool vehicles and units (that what forgeworld is, cool unusual stuff) and the rules for them which may or may not diverge significantly from established GW rules. My take on that is while the rule of cool is seemingly fun I've seen it taken too far. Sometimes for the sake of "narative" sometimes to make things more efficient.


More often than not they dont diverge significantly, a FW heavy stubber is a heavy stubber, a FW lascannon is a lascannon, a FW russ with twin linked lascannons still uses the GW proper rules for a russ and twin linked lascannons. Couple of exceptions to the it of course but if it exists in codexes and IA books the rules are are the same.




For example: Many if not most of the vehicles GW makes for standard armies are inefficient vehicles. Some weapons are meant for killing tanks, some for small units of elite troops and some for horde units. Often one or more of these weapons would be wasteful in firing at a particular enemy. Take the Leman Russ Battle Tank. If you fire at a vehicle, in all likelihood the heavy bolters won't be much use. Is this the way it always is, no, some vehicles like the predator annihilator have weapons for which all are targeted for a specific task. I personally worry how "efficient" some of these vehicles are, especially since I've never actually read any of the rules.


I wouldnt worry to much about the efficiency of the IA models, its like what it says in the start of the books about them being overcosted to represent their rarity. Ive yet to see a codex say "yeah theres stuff in here that costs to much for what it does". For the most part the FW stuff isnt in the same league as the power level of codex proper stuff (especially the newer books).

GW might make some multi purpose vehicles but the more specialised FW units are exactly that: more specialised. The leman russ annhilator with its twin linked lascannons and hull lascannon might be a better vehicle killer than a standard russ but will do nothing to an infantry swarm. Personally Id rather have a multi purpose MBT than a dedicated tank killer.




In a pick up game, narrative will likely not even be an issue, as it will most likely be a competitive game or a game of social interaction, meeting new players. Constantly springing up new (possibly) unheard of rules during such a game tends to create schisms in the social interactions, in my experience. I find this especially true in Warma-hordes where rules can vary so drastically. That is the concern with specialized rules from other companies or fandex's.

The rules are pretty much identical to codex anyway, those that arnt will take all of 1 minute to learn: "oh DKOK arnt like regular guardsmen? they have WS4 and a couple of doctrines like the old codex guard? noted and understood.....whats that little one there? cyclops demolition vehicle? a demolition charge on tracks that explodes if I penetrate its armour? noted and understood, leman russ with twin linked lascannons on its turret? its the same as a codex russ and codex lascannons? noted and understood".

Ill also go off on a slight tangent here and remind everybody that forgeworld are neither a seperate company or a fandex.

FabricatorGeneralMike
13-02-2011, 03:04
I don't think the issue is super heavies and such. It would seem more relevant for non-super heavy vehicles and specialized units. Also not the models but the rules for the models as published by Forgeworld.

These admittedly cool vehicles and units (that what forgeworld is, cool unusual stuff) and the rules for them which may or may not diverge significantly from established GW rules. My take on that is while the rule of cool is seemingly fun I've seen it taken too far. Sometimes for the sake of "narative" sometimes to make things more efficient.

For example: Many if not most of the vehicles GW makes for standard armies are inefficient vehicles. Some weapons are meant for killing tanks, some for small units of elite troops and some for horde units. Often one or more of these weapons would be wasteful in firing at a particular enemy. Take the Leman Russ Battle Tank. If you fire at a vehicle, in all likelihood the heavy bolters won't be much use. Is this the way it always is, no, some vehicles like the predator annihilator have weapons for which all are targeted for a specific task. I personally worry how "efficient" some of these vehicles are, especially since I've never actually read any of the rules.

In a pick up game, narrative will likely not even be an issue, as it will most likely be a competitive game or a game of social interaction, meeting new players. Constantly springing up new (possibly) unheard of rules during such a game tends to create schisms in the social interactions, in my experience. I find this especially true in Warma-hordes where rules can vary so drastically. That is the concern with specialized rules from other companies or fandex's.

What I have a problem with is if super heavys are allowed, then we get into structure points and D-strength weapons....and thats just a whole nother ball game

yshabash
13-02-2011, 03:55
sorry there seems to be an issue with one of my questions, when I was referring to super heavies or fliers I was not referring to large ones like banblades or titan and I was talking about things that kreig allow like marauders (2 structure points and macharius (2 structure points) and the gorgon (almost weaponless and 2.. well you get the idea.) Even I myself would never play in a non apoc game against a titan or something with 3 or more structure points (unless justified by a very high points cost or a special houserule.) Hope that helps.

I also have the following questions

if I play kreig can I take any missing units from codex: imperial guard?
if I play kreig can I take things from other IG varients
if I play kreig can I take named characters from codex: imperial guard (seeing as kreig is lacking any of those)

Thank you

Mannimarco
13-02-2011, 04:04
No theres no distinction really. A superheavy is a superheavy. Im all for them personally (in spearheads I run a malcador defender with my Vraksians) but I wouldnt use it in a regular game even though its......well its actually pretty crappy, not as much as the gorgon but still.

The thing about flyers is they can mess the game up pretty badly due to the limited amount of units the enemy can actually use to hit them, even though they dont really do much damage (maybe its just my hellblades and hell talon) they are still annoying as hell for your opponent to be buzzing around with him unable to even touch them.

Superheavies of all descriptions need that superheavy detachment slot, I forget what level you need to be playing at to open that.

FashaTheDog
13-02-2011, 04:17
Yshabash, the answer to all of your questions is no if you are using the Forgeworld army list. They are stand alone lists and what they have access to is all they can normally field in a standard game. The Krieg Armored Battle Group from IA7 allows Gorgons to be fielded as a dedicated transport for Platoon Command Squads (an Elites choice), but doing so means paying 430 points for a 3 structure point transport that is slow and lightly armed in a list where you are already fielding a half dozen or so Leman Russ tanks (HQ, Elite, & Troops options). In nearly any game, you're taking a Gorgon to be able to say you have a mechanized force since your only other transport option is Centaurs, but those are limited to your HQ and Elites. Granted your Infantry Squads have no transport options, but you can say that is how they got to the battlefield.

orkz222
13-02-2011, 06:35
Yes, super heavies and flyers in apoc only though.

Squallish
13-02-2011, 15:57
I will say this up front. I enjoy tournaments and competitive play. As such, and since in all stores save one in the area, FW is not allowed in tournaments, I generally don't play against FW. Also, my first experience against FW was *not* a good one. I avoid the store that allows it because it simply is a big unknown what I will face, and for that reason, I don't want to take the time to learn 8 more wild and crazy books.

If, however, you really want to play FW, I know ahead of time, and you send me rules to learn such that I know what to expect when building my own army, then sure.. we'll play FW. But coming in with a regular FW list puts all the power in the FW player's hand, since they know more than you, and can assume you're not knowledgable.

I'd love to trust my fellow players, but as I said my first FW experience was a negative one, as summarized below:
- some Imperial Guard Artillery piece, unknown IA
- first turn, fires and hits my Avatar, 2 Guardian squads (so all were Fearless)
- I had deployed backline, to avoid fire and due to terrain placement, but this gun was a barrage
- was told that I *must* fall back, despite telling him I was Fearless
- all three units lost in one shot in one shooting phase
- as I was already playing a gimp list (Ulthwe) with my required centrepiece gone, the game was over for me

That kind of situation makes me avoid FW like the plague.

Bunnahabhain
13-02-2011, 16:09
I'd love to trust my fellow players, but as I said my first FW experience was a negative one, as summarized below:
- some Imperial Guard Artillery piece, unknown IA
- first turn, fires and hits my Avatar, 2 Guardian squads (so all were Fearless)
- I had deployed backline, to avoid fire and due to terrain placement, but this gun was a barrage
- was told that I *must* fall back, despite telling him I was Fearless
- all three units lost in one shot in one shooting phase
- as I was already playing a gimp list (Ulthwe) with my required centrepiece gone, the game was over for me

That kind of situation makes me avoid FW like the plague.

Ahhh, the OLD IA heavy mortars, with inferno rounds. Yes, they were badly broken. They were also changed ( A faq, IIRC) to avoid being able to drive people off the board....

They were then updated again, to bring them into line with normal guard heavy mortars, just as an artillery mount.


They join one of a very few small list of FW units that are broken and made it past their trial rules stage- the others being Marine drop pods. There have been several bits like the LR achillies that the trial stage caught...

Relative to GW main, three broken units over 10 years is rather good.

gorfang113
13-02-2011, 16:39
I would be fine with FW models, I would encourage it, as it makes the game much more interesting. As for the guard, I don't know which is the best to take, but Elysians are my favorite.

Mannimarco
13-02-2011, 16:53
I will say this up front. I enjoy tournaments and competitive play. As such, and since in all stores save one in the area, FW is not allowed in tournaments, I generally don't play against FW. Also, my first experience against FW was *not* a good one. I avoid the store that allows it because it simply is a big unknown what I will face, and for that reason, I don't want to take the time to learn 8 more wild and crazy books.

If, however, you really want to play FW, I know ahead of time, and you send me rules to learn such that I know what to expect when building my own army, then sure.. we'll play FW. But coming in with a regular FW list puts all the power in the FW player's hand, since they know more than you, and can assume you're not knowledgable.

I'd love to trust my fellow players, but as I said my first FW experience was a negative one, as summarized below:
- some Imperial Guard Artillery piece, unknown IA
- first turn, fires and hits my Avatar, 2 Guardian squads (so all were Fearless)
- I had deployed backline, to avoid fire and due to terrain placement, but this gun was a barrage
- was told that I *must* fall back, despite telling him I was Fearless
- all three units lost in one shot in one shooting phase
- as I was already playing a gimp list (Ulthwe) with my required centrepiece gone, the game was over for me

That kind of situation makes me avoid FW like the plague.

Forgeworld is only allowed in some tournaments, not all but its still worth pointing out the argument "FW isnt tournament legal not now not ever" is false.

Those would be the Infernus shells from years ago which havnt worked like that in a good long while? They were fixed pretty quickly after it was discovered just how broken they were.

You dont even need to learn 8 or more crazy books seeing as how the majority of IA rules are actually the same as codex. Do you have a fully comprehensive knowledge of every codex? If not you should refuse to play any codex you are unsure of as its not really fair on you if you turn up for a game and have to learn all these new crazy rules.

Ive never understood this "Ill play you but only if I can see your rules and list a while before we play". Its in my experience that kind of thing changes a list from an all comer to being heavily tailored to fight the big bid FW list. Can we do the opposite? Send me your list so I can tailor my list to play against it?

Want to know what my first experience of fighting the current Chaos dex was? I has a squad who I couldnt move, they all moved forward then bunched up and got nuked by an obliterator squad, then another squad did that. That kind of thing should put me off the cheesy broken mess that is lash spam but I still play.

Infernus shells were fixed quickly, a few years in and you can still lash/oblit spam.

The "FW is broken" debate usually centres on 3 units, 2 of which are drop pods and one which you havnt even been able to do for a good few years now. Thats 3 things compared to any number of codex units.

Squallish
13-02-2011, 17:20
Replies in red.


Forgeworld is only allowed in some tournaments, not all but its still worth pointing out the argument "FW isnt tournament legal not now not ever" is false.

I didn't say that. I said it's not allowed here, and since I play competitively, I'm not going to practice or seek games playing against things I will not see in a tournament.

Those would be the Infernus shells from years ago which havnt worked like that in a good long while? They were fixed pretty quickly after it was discovered just how broken they were.

First impressions mean a lot.

You dont even need to learn 8 or more crazy books seeing as how the majority of IA rules are actually the same as codex. Do you have a fully comprehensive knowledge of every codex? If not you should refuse to play any codex you are unsure of as its not really fair on you if you turn up for a game and have to learn all these new crazy rules.

Are we not up to IA8? Yes, I have a fully comprehensive knowledge of all regularly played books. I don't see Black Templars or Sisters very often, but I do know the gist of what they're capable of.

Ive never understood this "Ill play you but only if I can see your rules and list a while before we play". Its in my experience that kind of thing changes a list from an all comer to being heavily tailored to fight the big bid FW list. Can we do the opposite? Send me your list so I can tailor my list to play against it?

I didn't ask to see your list, I asked to see your *rules*. I don't want to tailor, I want to know what to expect. If you're bringing something that's impossible to deal with (my virgin FW experience, for example), then I want to know that so I at least deploy properly.

Want to know what my first experience of fighting the current Chaos dex was? I has a squad who I couldnt move, they all moved forward then bunched up and got nuked by an obliterator squad, then another squad did that. That kind of thing should put me off the cheesy broken mess that is lash spam but I still play.

Lash/Oblit spam is actually weak now in 5th Ed Mech edition. Although when it came out, it was annoying, granted, it could also be dealt with via deployment if you *know* it's coming, *know* it's range and bring psychic defense or vehicles (of which only a few old armies can't).

Infernus shells were fixed quickly, a few years in and you can still lash/oblit spam.

A few years does not sound quick to me. Lash/Oblits can be dealt with.

The "FW is broken" debate usually centres on 3 units, 2 of which are drop pods and one which you havnt even been able to do for a good few years now. Thats 3 things compared to any number of codex units.

Introducing new rules unknown to a good %age of players in a WAAC environment tends to cause havoc. Give me Lash/Oblits, 3++ Shields and Thunder Wolves over god knows what that I have to special order from a website not affiliated with my store any day.

adeptusphotographicus
13-02-2011, 17:50
Should be 100% no problem with any 40K fan, or friends group, or game shop games day.. should all be awesome.
Only trouble would be if you wanted to play in a tournament.. those folks tend to only want the real vanilla lists and frankly play for the thrill of victory and not the fun of the game.. for the most part in my experience they have no interest in the fellowship/friendship aspect either. just win period, to heck with the spirt of the game, and the fun part.. Of course they find it fun playing with such low regard for sportsmanship and the fun factor that well.. if you like that sort of thing, and or to win period then tournaments are likely for you.

If tho you enjoy the hobby and the game and the friendship with fellow 40k fans.. then go for it. especially FW.. nothing looks as cool as a whole table of lovely painted resin.. oh yeah!

Spacker
13-02-2011, 19:22
Are we not up to IA8?

IA10 has been out a couple of weeks now - you're 2 books behind :p

Spectral Dragon
13-02-2011, 20:23
I'm going to re-iterate a few points I have seen made here.

There is nothing "Illegal" in a pick up game so long as it is from GW. I see people using forgeworld stuff fairly often in our store, others however simply won't play against anything that isn't strictly codex. The choice is theirs, some people love it others don't, not my place to determine how they want to go about their own hobby.

You are spending a LOT of money on a model that you are hoping to use, so by golly use it! I know I want to use my future purchase of the Tomb Stalker in games.

Finally, just let people know you are using forge world beforehand and also what the rules are.

Vaktathi
13-02-2011, 21:09
I didn't say that. I said it's not allowed here, and since I play competitively, I'm not going to practice or seek games playing against things I will not see in a tournament. This sounds like the most boring, repetitive, restricted way to play 40k ever with the smallest number of potential players to get a game with. Especially considering that 40k is nowhere near a balanced, competitive ruleset, and the game lives and dies by its visuals and background, most certainly not its rules. The majority of the playerbase will never play in a tournament, and only the tiniest fraction will play in anything like a GT.

If you're into 40k strictly for competitive tournament style play, you're in the wrong game, there are better choices. Playing strictly "competitive" 40k is like playing strictly competitive "War" with a deck of cards, competitive "Mario Party" or competitive "Chutes and Ladders". Tournaments of such games can be fun, but they shouldn't be taken too seriously (if "practice" games are all you play, you're taking them too seriously), aren't what the game is about nor are such games particularly balanced enough for them to mean anything.

Also keep in mind many FW units are finding their way into codecies. Pirhanas, Skyrays, Hydras, Manticores, Medusas, Valkyries, etc.

All those FW units exist within the 40k universe. The game exists and is popular because of its IP, not its rules. What's wrong with portraying them?

Finally, nowhere in the rules does it say that "codex+brb" is the only thing legal for normal play, and most of the FW rules are available online for free from FW's website.

Spacker
13-02-2011, 21:17
Finally, nowhere in the rules does it say that "codex+brb" is the only thing legal for normal play, and most of the FW rules are available online for free from FW's website.

I'm all for for FW, but I felt the need to correct you here. Since IAA2 FW's stance has been that rulebook + codex are the only official rules for normal play, it's right there in black and white in the books and has already been posted by Castigator in post 57: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5308439&postcount=57

And as for the second part of your post, only a few rules are available for free. There are the IAv1 and IAv2 updates, the DK Siege regiment update, and some trial rules (which are made obsolete once the printed rules come out), but the vast majority of FW rules are not available online and are only in the printed books.

Vaktathi
13-02-2011, 21:32
Ah, I don't have IAA2. However in IA:8 or 9 at least I don't see anything stating that one needs permission or that Codex+BRB is the only "official" stuff. I may be blind, but all I see is a reference saying that in order to use some of the content you'll need a copy of the rules and a couple associated codecies, but this has been in every IA book IIRC.


And as for the second part of your post, only a few rules are available for free. There are the IAv1 and IAv2 updates, the DK Siege regiment update, and some trial rules (which are made obsolete once the printed rules come out), but the vast majority of FW rules are not available online and are only in the printed books. IA 1/2, DKoK siege regiments, the trial rules, and the Renegades and Heretics lists I think do seem to cover most models they make that require rules. It covers all the IG stuff, I think all the Imperial Navy stuff, most if not all Space Marine and Inquisition stuff, and most of the Chaos units.

Yes there's a lot of stuff not covered of course, but I do believe most of FW's models are covered by those PDF's if I'm not mistaken.

Spacker
13-02-2011, 21:53
Ah, I don't have IAA2. However in IA:8 or 9 at least I don't see anything stating that one needs permission or that Codex+BRB is the only "official" stuff. I may be blind, but all I see is a reference saying that in order to use some of the content you'll need a copy of the rules and a couple associated codecies, but this has been in every IA book IIRC.

I haven't got IA9 and IA10 to check, but I can't see it in IA8 either. Note however that IA8 also doesn't include a "these rules are all legal" statement as the earlier books did.


IA 1/2, DKoK siege regiments, the trial rules, and the Renegades and Heretics lists I think do seem to cover most models they make that require rules. It covers all the IG stuff, I think all the Imperial Navy stuff, most if not all Space Marine and Inquisition stuff, and most of the Chaos units.

Yes there's a lot of stuff not covered of course, but I do believe most of FW's models are covered by those PDF's if I'm not mistaken.

Most of the trial rules don't match the final printed rules, so you can pretty ignore much most of those. So even for IG, that's units like the Sky Talon, Drop Sentinel, Elysian las-cutters and other Elysian specific rules (such as lasguns with integral grenade launchers), containment fences, Anphelion base, LR Annihilator, Macharius and Malcador and their variants, Gorgon, Minotaur, and that's just off the top of my head. And how about all the Eldar units? For a comprehensive list I'd need to get all the IA books out and put a list together, but it's pretty sizeable. I'd take a guess at least half of the models don't have current rules in PDF form on the FW site.

Vaktathi
13-02-2011, 22:58
Hrm, yeah I guess it doesn't have the rules for some of the Elysian stuff. Maybe it doesn't have as much as I thought :p, but there's still rules for a very large proportion of FW's models online for free (especially much of the more popular stuff), and players should have their rules available for perusal by an opponent if they want to play a game even with just their codex anyway.

FashaTheDog
14-02-2011, 01:46
The majority of the playerbase will never play in a tournament, and only the tiniest fraction will play in anything like a GT.

Thank you, you made me feel like I'm in some exclusive club of 40k players with that. :)

As for having to buy the Imperial Armour books to get all the rules someone might toss at you in Forgeworld allowed games it is not as daunting as task as buying or even reading all 12 books (Volumes 1-10 and the two Apocalpyse ones). Much, but not all, of the first two volumes have already been reprinted in other books, both GW and FW. Imperial Armour 3 has been seen a heavy update by volume 8 sans the Tau and Tallarn lists, while the Vraks series has nearly all of the units featured in them also covered in the Apocalypse books. What the three Vraks volumes have is the Krieg Armored Company, the Khornate Guard, and the Nurglitch Guard lists and some great fluff (some of my favorite). The two lists from volume 5, siege Krieg and vanilla Traitor Guard, are now on the website as others have mentioned. Imperial Armour 4 has D-99, which is an Ordo Xenos list based off of the prior volume's Elysian list, but far more elite (and underpowered). Much of volume 4's units have been updated by codex and Apocalypse books (GW and FW), especially the Tyranids stuff. Then you have the newer books (8-10).

In short, the two Imperial Armour Apocalpyse books will get you the most Forgeworld units that are not already in a GW book. Forgeworld's site (DKoK & Renegades and Heretics), Imperial Armour volumes 6 (Servants of Slaughter & Red Scorpions (minor change to Codex Space Marines)), 7 (Armored Battlegroup & Servants of Decay), 8 (Elysians & Dread Mob list), and 9 (Tyrant's Legion) all have the army lists you are likely to encounter.

Granted they are not cheap books, but they are very nice and if you are a one of those bibliophile gamers, then the price is not going to deter you past the order in which you buy them. Otherwise, you can probably swing it with just the Apocalypse ones and ask to look at the army list and units you haven't seen prior to the game. Some might even photocopy their list out of the book to let you review at your leisure prior.

For those with no desire to play against Forgeworld, this entire post has probably been skipped completely, but those looking for an idea of where to start brushing up on your resin units, hopefully this can be of some help.

doubleT
14-02-2011, 14:50
Very interesting thread, since I play Death Korps of Krieg.

I read through all of it and I cannot hold back from making some comments:


I am leaning towards kreig but am also considering elysians, regular and tallarn. That also bring me to my second question for you (if you can answer this one) which variant (or regular) of IG do you think is best?

First of all: PLEASE stop saying/writing "Kreig"! It's "Krieg"! (Sorry, but I'm German and I think it's absolutely horrible to see 5 "Kreig" in 3 sentences. ;) )

2nd: The Death Korps has the big advantage if having a complete and relatively new Army List, while the Elysians for example (very cool idea and models) don't.


I have no problems with FW stuff as long as I can read the rules of things first so no nasty shocks, this is due to the fact that I can get my hands on the codexs but not the IA books and I'm not going to shell out 50 odd quid per book on the off chance someone will use it while I'm there and want a battle, I think this is the main reason people dislike FW rules in pick up games.

As for the Death Korps, this is an argument that I refuse to accept. The Death Korps list is available on the FW website as PDF - for free!

When I play against someone, I usually point this out to them, offer them a link or even send them the PDF myself. When I play, I allways have copy of the original pdf and even a translated version (as I am German) that I give them - they can even keep it.

Still I think of this as a very friendly move of myself, since I don't know all codices - and I don't even want to know all the other codices by heart. I know roughly how the other armies are built and what I have to look out for, but that's it. And every opponent of me knows: Krieg = IG regiment, that is all you really have to know to adjust your army. Infantry and tanks ...

+ see the quote of Mannimarco below


I don't want to take the time to learn 8 more wild and crazy books.[quote]

You don't need to read all IA to learn about the Death Korps. One single book, the IA 5, would be enough. Even the downloadable PDF would be enough. There are no updates from book to book and I can easily play the Death Korps without reading all the other IA's.

@ madden, Firmlog and Squallish:
If I'd mistrust every player I don't know, thinking "He might cheat!" I would have no fun playing. I can only quote Mannimarco here, because it's excactly what I think about this:

[QUOTE=Mannimarco;5311289]Do you have a fully comprehensive knowledge of every codex? If not you should refuse to play any codex you are unsure of as its not really fair on you if you turn up for a game and have to learn all these new crazy rules.

Ive never understood this "Ill play you but only if I can see your rules and list a while before we play". Its in my experience that kind of thing changes a list from an all comer to being heavily tailored to fight the big bid FW list. Can we do the opposite? Send me your list so I can tailor my list to play against it?
[quote]


--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--

[QUOTE=riotknight;5309052]I think the idea that someone can bust out an army I've never seen or read the rules for is awesome. Why? Because it adds a bit of cool unintended narrative to the game.
"Alright here is my Space Mehrine army. What are you playing...wait, WTF IS THAT?!"
"Oh that? That's a breaching drill"
"Cool! My Marines have never faced an army with one before! This will test their tactical acumen!"

That is nearly exactly what a friend of mine said and describes how I myself play. I don't study the other codices to know everything about them. Unfortunately, this is a disadvantage for me in the first game, but I think I'm a relaively good strategist, so I'd adjust relatively fast and surprise him maybe in the middle of the game or at least in the 2nd game.


I personally like the thought of going up against a Krieg force, or one of the Badab War lists. I think it'd be fun.

Everyone I played against so far loved to have the Death Korps as opponent. When we play in a GW store, there are usually a lot of people that stand around the table and look at the miniatures. Another good thing: People with unpainted or badly / hardly painted armies feel not worthy enough to field their armies to confront my Death Korps. :evilgrin: So I usually see a good painted enemy - and this makes the games more fun.


I never understood why people would object to it, except maybe out of some misguided sense of subconscious jealousy.

I suspect this, too. + See my next answer.



I do agree that in Tournaments it should be monitored, even though MOST FW stuff is over costed on purpose (XV9s are cheap so long as you don't give them anything but the Burst Cannons + Target lock)

This. Alot of people assume that FW = better looking miniates = better stats. Now, when they really have better stats, they usually come at a very high price! Of course this makes FW lists a bit "elitist", but also really pricey. This way the FW player usually has only few but specialised units while his opponent can usually field more units that can addapt to the situation far better.


--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--

ugh, this turned out to be a rather long post. Sorry for that. :D

Now, regarding the initial question, "Would you let me use forge world rules?", I have one thing to say that annoyed me for some time now:

I know this is rather "elitist" and won't make me a lot of friends, but I think, FW rules - and specially the Death Korps list - should only be used if you really field FW models.
I have seen people use the Death Korps Army List with armies that consisted of conversions only, or even complete IG models. I think these don't deserve to be called DK or played as them - but that's just my (admittedly rather radical) oppinion. And I don't like DK played as IG lists with Valkyres and Chimeras ... ;) I don't think that I'd refuse to play against them but I'd tease my opponent, forcing him to stop calling it "Death Korps". :evilgrin:

Castigator
14-02-2011, 14:54
Ah, I don't have IAA2. However in IA:8 or 9 at least I don't see anything stating that one needs permission or that Codex+BRB is the only "official" stuff. I may be blind, but all I see is a reference saying that in order to use some of the content you'll need a copy of the rules and a couple associated codecies, but this has been in every IA book IIRC.

It tends to say the word "Expansion" on the front cover in big bold letters. Consequently, it fills the same "category" as Planetstrike or Spearhead-formations or Cities of Death.

Mannimarco
14-02-2011, 17:17
Ive posted my 2.5k FW list im going to be taking to a local tourny here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293155

Despite almost every single model there being from an IA list I think youd be hard pressed to find anybody who will say they dont have a clue what any of this stuff is and it isnt fair on them having to play that. A FW autocannon is a GW autocannon, a chimera is a chimera, a lascannon is a lascannon and if it looks like a russ with a twin linked lascannon on top of it then its safe to assume it uses russ and lascannon rules.

Although they are both listed as expansions there should be a distinction between "additional units added to the main game or its expansions" and "additional rules to make the main game different".

Again, look to my list I posted. I challenge anybody to look at that stuff and claim playing against that would require as much additional learning new rules, reworking lists and forward planning as city fight or planetstrike or apocalypse.

We shouldnt pretend a FW list or unit is going to give its user tonnes of new options that their opponent will never have heard of. At worst its no different from playing against a codex you arnt 100% familiar with, at best its like playing a subtle variation of the preexisting codex units.

FabricatorGeneralMike
14-02-2011, 17:26
It tends to say the word "Expansion" on the front cover in big bold letters. Consequently, it fills the same "category" as Planetstrike or Spearhead-formations or Cities of Death.


Yeppers it does. Does that mean it's not official? Does that mean planetstrike or CoD is not 'official'. As with all games of 40k, it's up to you and your opponent to come to a 'contract' on how the game will be played. Of course YMMV to mine.

Neither one of us is wrong, we just want get different thinks out of 40k. So you can go play againsted the ' this week SW, next week BA, in two months GK grey legions of unpaintness' and I will go play againsted a nicely painted DKoK againsted my Sisters of Battle. Because those guardsmen must be up to something if the Sisters want to take them out. ;)

Navar
14-02-2011, 17:27
It tends to say the word "Expansion" on the front cover in big bold letters. Consequently, it fills the same "category" as Planetstrike or Spearhead-formations or Cities of Death.

Not so much as Mannimarco says better than I could.


And yes while spearhead/planetstrike/apocalypse/IA books all have "expansion" plastered on the front of them I put it to you that theres a difference between them. A codex guard army playing a codex orks army in a planetstrike game will still present a lot more new stuff to learn than an IA DKOK list playing against a codex ork list in a standard game. Its a small difference but worth mentioning that there should be a distinction between "expansion rules to make the core game different" and "expansion units and army lists to be used with the core game".

Castigator
14-02-2011, 17:30
Yeppers it does. Does that mean it's not official? Does that mean planetstrike or CoD is not 'official'. As with all games of 40k, it's up to you and your opponent to come to a 'contract' on how the game will be played. Of course YMMV to mine. Neither one of us is wrong, we just want get different thinks out of 40k. So you can go play againsted the ' this week SW, next week BA, in two months GK grey legions of unpaintness' and I will go play againsted a nicely painted DKoK againsted my Sisters of Battle. Because those guardsmen must be up to something if the Sisters want to take them out. ;)

:wtf::wtf::wtf:

I never said I wouldn't play FW. I just answered a question of a previous poster, noting where infact FW put the "notice" on how/what "they" consider it.

Lay of the preaching guy... seriously. It's getting creepy.

FabricatorGeneralMike
14-02-2011, 17:43
:wtf::wtf::wtf:

I never said I wouldn't play FW. I just answered a question of a previous poster, noting where infact FW put the "notice" on how/what "they" consider it.

Lay of the preaching guy... seriously. It's getting creepy.



Sooo, 5 pages in, ive made a few posts. You have posted one thumb-nail and a quick little blurb about your conclusions and im being preachy and creepy?

"It tends to say the word "Expansion" on the front cover in big bold letters. Consequently, it fills the same "category" as Planetstrike or Spearhead-formations or Cities of Death."

As I said in my post, if thats the way you view it all the power to you. As long as your having fun thats all that matters in the end isn't it? I never said the way your play 40k is wrong or that my way is right. If fact I believe I said different strokes for different folks. In the end there is no right or wrong way to play 40k. If you want to make rules for the Emperor and use him all the power to you. As long as you can find a opponent anything fair game.

In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter does it? It seems like you are trying to troll for a flame-war, is this your intent?

Erwos
14-02-2011, 18:35
In short, the two Imperial Armour Apocalpyse books will get you the most Forgeworld units that are not already in a GW book. Forgeworld's site (DKoK & Renegades and Heretics), Imperial Armour volumes 6 (Servants of Slaughter & Red Scorpions (minor change to Codex Space Marines)), 7 (Armored Battlegroup & Servants of Decay), 8 (Elysians & Dread Mob list), and 9 (Tyrant's Legion) all have the army lists you are likely to encounter.
THANK YOU. And, let me add one other thing: the IA:Apoc books aren't even expensive. They are $33 each from GW USA, which, incidentally, is pretty much the same cost as a new codex and less expensive than the original Apoc book. I have very limited sympathy for the "no information about FW units" argument when it comes to units in these two books, or in the updated lists on FW's website.

Let it be said that I still fall into the "expansion means optional" camp, but the justifications for not allowing reasonable FW usage in an ostensibly friendly game are not so myriad as they might appear.

Havock
14-02-2011, 19:39
Another good reason: compare the new leman russ executioner with the old FW rules.

Which one tends to cause more tears?

adeptusphotographicus
14-02-2011, 19:43
Wow..
Lots of angst and "tears" over FW army lists and models. who knew that more of the good stuff would cause such consternation amongst us gamers.

I think after reading these posts that for the most part people like FW, like the models and the new rules, enjoy the expansion of the hobby.. all good stuff.

Seems tho there are a few people who just plain do not like FW, and resist the rules and seem to decline to play against people who use them.
Good for them! frankly if they do not want to play against FW stuff fine.. better to have these unpleasant folks remove themselves from the likes of the happier more open minded crowd anyways.. win win.
let the winge kings go enjoy their own brand of competition and leave the fun hobby game play to those of us who really enjoy 40K.

win win.

Vedar
14-02-2011, 21:56
I don't like forgeworld. Why?, because it seems the forgeworld stuff I've played against gives an unfair advantage. Who would not want more options to fine tune a list? Do IG really need tons more options?

If you play forgeworld stuff and asked If you can use it, I'd give you a fair shot, but don't be all ******** if I say I'd rather not play agaist some Forgeworld stuff I've never heard of.

Ddraiglais
14-02-2011, 23:00
It depends. I would always allow FW rules if there aren't any other rules out there. A lot of FW rules have found their way into GW rules and Apocalypse. I usually put the FW rules as third after GW and Apocalypse/CoD/other GW expansion rules. Fourth would be a reputable fan site like BoLS. Lastly would be house rules if they were fair and added to the game.

Dvora
14-02-2011, 23:05
As long as it's not incredibly broken, I don't mind.

FashaTheDog
15-02-2011, 01:32
Actually Vedar, the three Forgeworld loyalist Guard lists change rather than increase the number of options as they are specialized lists. Krieg is an artillery regiment, the Armored Battlegroup is a tank company, the Elysians are drop troops. Out of curiosity, what Forgeworld stuff have you been burned by, if I may ask? Has it been from a list or extra units?

I ask as much of the problem people have about Forgeworld is the way it comes off to them. Granted this has already happened to two people I know with the current Dark Eldar codex, neither one of which have actually played against them, only watched parts of my games with them, so it is not isolated to Forgeworld alone. I am still curious as to how they were a bad experience for you?

-Loki-
15-02-2011, 02:39
I don't like forgeworld. Why?, because it seems the forgeworld stuff I've played against gives an unfair advantage.

May I ask, by what? Not many Forgeworld units give an unfair advantage. Most are overcsted for their usefulness, and while offering a new option, are generally detrimental to the person useing the Forgeworld model rather than the person fighting it.

The only Forgeworld units that offer unfair advantage happen to be Space marine units. The Land Raider Achilles has ridiculous firepower and is practically invincible. The Caestus Assault ram is way too powerful, and the Lucius pattern drop pods that let you assault after disembarking are nasty. They're the only units I can think of from the top of my head.


Who would not want more options to fine tune a list? Do IG really need tons more options?

While IG get a lot more stuff than the rest, there's some really nice new units for other armies. Eldar have gotten quite a few, same with Space Marines, Chaos, Tau and even Necrons. I'd personally like to see updated rules for the Malanthrope and a couple of newer Tyranid models that aren't gargantuan creatures though.


If you play forgeworld stuff and asked If you can use it, I'd give you a fair shot, but don't be all ******** if I say I'd rather not play agaist some Forgeworld stuff I've never heard of.

Well that's kind of the thing. Most people with Forgeworld models ask if they can use it first and offer the book so you can see the unit/list in question, they don't try to sneak an Achilles into their list as a surprise.

Grimbad
15-02-2011, 02:39
Would you let me use forge world rules?

Yeah, feel free. I love forgeworld.
It's like normal GW but with better imagination, writing, depth, realism, community interaction, and, with a couple exceptions, models. Their only failings are price and spellchecking.

The rules add scope to the 40k universe like Chapter Approved used to. 40k's rules aren't much as a game, but combined with the minis make a good visualization aid in my opinion. 5th Edition tried to make this better, but the codexes are the problem. You can't visualize a Sanguinary Priest curing the wounds of everyone within a twelve-meter radius. I played Feral Orks because I could imagine the thundering stampede of squiggoths and the pounding charge of boarboyz. There was an army that played true to its background on the table.
With the increasing hyperbole of the codex background and simplification of the army list process, that's harder to find. Forgeworld offers diverse but believable background and reflects it well in its rules.
The Death Korps list, for example, feels like a precisely planned mass assault. The heavy artillery that skips turns to reload makes the whole bombardment feel orchestrated. The breaching drills always arrive on the same turn.
On paper, it's as though the strategist-statisticians behind the trenches have been working this out for months, and now you will see if their grim mathematics will hold up to reality, and how many human lives comprise their margin of error. I don't even play death korps, but their army list screams this and it showed when I proxied my guard to try it out.

FabricatorGeneralMike
15-02-2011, 03:22
Yeah, feel free. I love forgeworld.
It's like normal GW but with better imagination, writing, depth, realism, community interaction, and, with a couple exceptions, models. Their only failings are price and spellchecking.

The rules add scope to the 40k universe like Chapter Approved used to. 40k's rules aren't much as a game, but combined with the minis make a good visualization aid in my opinion. 5th Edition tried to make this better, but the codexes are the problem. You can't visualize a Sanguinary Priest curing the wounds of everyone within a twelve-meter radius. I played Feral Orks because I could imagine the thundering stampede of squiggoths and the pounding charge of boarboyz. There was an army that played true to its background on the table.
With the increasing hyperbole of the codex background and simplification of the army list process, that's harder to find. Forgeworld offers diverse but believable background and reflects it well in its rules.
The Death Korps list, for example, feels like a precisely planned mass assault. The heavy artillery that skips turns to reload makes the whole bombardment feel orchestrated. The breaching drills always arrive on the same turn.
On paper, it's as though the strategist-statisticians behind the trenches have been working this out for months, and now you will see if their grim mathematics will hold up to reality, and how many human lives comprise their margin of error. I don't even play death korps, but their army list screams this and it showed when I proxied my guard to try it out.

Exactually, I am reading the Seige of Vraks books right now and I am highly enjoying them. When I looked at the army lists it just 'made sence' to me. And wow, the Dkok had it bad at Vraks. I am only at book two, but damn, they had it bad.

kaimarion
15-02-2011, 03:37
I wouldn't have a single problem with my opponent using a FW list, I personally find that FW create far more interesting army lists and scenarios than GW do, this of course is just my opinion but look at the pile of poo that is battle missions then look at the scenarios/game types like the boarding missions FW provides in the back of their latest books.

Mannimarco
15-02-2011, 03:39
Exactually, I am reading the Seige of Vraks books right now and I am highly enjoying them. When I looked at the army lists it just 'made sence' to me. And wow, the Dkok had it bad at Vraks. I am only at book two, but damn, they had it bad.

Dont worry, they turn it around in the 3rd book and claw back a victory. Granted its a victory that costs them millions of soldiers and the entire Vraks planet is wasted with no way to ever use it ever again the world is effectively quarantined.

I must warn you: As much as the IA books portray a more realistic (as realistic in 40k gets anyway) there is a couple of "fluff escalation" moments that make the Calgar/Avatar kerb stomp look tame.

Stern going toe to toe with Scabbiethrax after an inquisitor just melted by standing to close to him and Hector Rex duking it out with Ang'grath after he chops up a GK dreadnought...and a land raider....and a bunch of guardsmen....and a GK master IIRC. Nice little showdown near the end where Arkos turns up and kills the Angels of Absolution chapter master but is then defeated by Chaplain Belphagor showing that Arkos is the single most dangerour Chaos lord we have ever seen having killed 1 chapter master and being seconds from killing the chapter master of the Dark Angels Azrael. Nice way to finish the series though, a massive daemon legion is summoned to defend the citadel and fought the GK and rex, Xaphan turns up, we see some loyalist survivors and theres a little insight into the politics between the ordo Malleus and Heriticus

FabricatorGeneralMike
15-02-2011, 04:40
Dont worry, they turn it around in the 3rd book and claw back a victory. Granted its a victory that costs them millions of soldiers and the entire Vraks planet is wasted with no way to ever use it ever again the world is effectively quarantined.

I must warn you: As much as the IA books portray a more realistic (as realistic in 40k gets anyway) there is a couple of "fluff escalation" moments that make the Calgar/Avatar kerb stomp look tame.

Stern going toe to toe with Scabbiethrax after an inquisitor just melted by standing to close to him and Hector Rex duking it out with Ang'grath after he chops up a GK dreadnought...and a land raider....and a bunch of guardsmen....and a GK master IIRC. Nice little showdown near the end where Arkos turns up and kills the Angels of Absolution chapter master but is then defeated by Chaplain Belphagor showing that Arkos is the single most dangerour Chaos lord we have ever seen having killed 1 chapter master and being seconds from killing the chapter master of the Dark Angels Azrael. Nice way to finish the series though, a massive daemon legion is summoned to defend the citadel and fought the GK and rex, Xaphan turns up, we see some loyalist survivors and theres a little insight into the politics between the ordo Malleus and Heriticus

Wow, i had already read the army entry for Hector Rex, he seemed like something out of Matt Wards wet dreams. I fugured that the story might get a little silly at the end, but what the hell its 40k. It's kind of nice to see a good ol' big shoot them up, then X shows up, then Y shows up and then all have a huge fight.

It does sound like a good read tho. Thanks for the heads up.

the_yuk
15-02-2011, 05:27
I dont mind FW rules but Im a DKOK player. All i will do is print off some extra copies of the PDF and give one to my oponents before a game, just so they know what to expect. If they dont want to play me thats there loss.

Eryx_UK
16-02-2011, 16:23
I'd be more than happy to play against FW. I've never seen them be too powerful. I think FW units add a much needed addition to the game.