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Souleater
11-02-2011, 08:39
A couple of weeks ago I was thinking of starting a Marine army. Perhaps chaos for the gnarly figures. Perhaps Grey Knights for something very elite and the polar opposite of my usual Nid or DE hordes.

Being an army tart I just couldn't decide. Then I remembered those whacky guys who swap dexes or a different codex for each company in their DIY chapter. I could use a mix of loyalist and chaos figures and whichever codex I liked on the day.

Going further with the Chaos theme I thought that I could use CSM for Black Legion. Khonre would Space Wolves (Lone Berzerkers always made more sense to me), TWC would be Jugger Riders, Mark of the Wulfen a mutation or blessing or Khorne, etc.

For Tzeentch the amazing psychic powers and daemonprince of the upcoming Grey Knights seems almost perfect.

For Slaanesh we have a codex focusing on a chapter that loves artful armour, swift attacks and seemingly the thrill of speeding into battle.

For Nurgle...well ForgeWorld is their bitch so they can pipe down. :)

Today I saw this in another thread:


GW seems to think it's easier to give marines the units and themes from other armies rather than actually make those other armies popular. Soon we'll just have marine armies fighting marine armies varied by whether they're a mecha/fast attack or whatever marine army...:rolleyes:

Hellebore

And it struck me as very true. The loyalist legions may have had some of those traits already but they have been pushed to what seems like a level of self-parody in order to make them more distinct from each other.

I'm not even sure I have a point with this but it does strike me as odd.

Zweischneid
11-02-2011, 08:54
As I have argued elsewhere, I think the observation comes from a (in my opinion) misconception of Chaos.

Loyalist Marines have always pushed one theme or another. As such, these books have always fit mono-God/Legion armies better (which doesn't deny a trend to push towards a cartoony end).

What Chaos Marines (should) excel at, in my opinion, is precisely the mix of themes reflected in the .. for lack of a better word ... chaotic (not random) nature of Chaos and their ad-hoc alliances of formerly separate Legions.

A good Chaos army IMO has BOTH Slannesh and Khorne units, or BOTH Tzeentsch and Nurgle units, along with ideally some modern version of old-school animosity-rules to represent the fragility of a typical Chaos alliance.

That, I think, is the jump to make from fluff to game: there is no point in GW writing about inter-Chaos-god enemity and animosity, if players do not bring precisely this animostiy to the table. A Chaos Marine Player fielding a Khorne army without Slannesh units is, IMO, missing/neglecting a major and important element of the fluff; namely the general antagonism between Slannesh and Khorne despite still being on the same "side", so to speak.

In short: leave specialization to a theme to the Loyalists. And make Chaos Chaos!

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2011, 10:12
You know, I think I could get behind what Zweischneid said there.

All the other stuff, mono-god warmachines and formations, could be saved for Apocalypse. Which, well, they already have rules for some.

Also, there was a previous CSM codex thread where people were talking about what the crux of CSMs are and the perspective to take when trying to redo them. I offer this as food for thought:



"I murdered thousands for the Emperor and he gave me nothing but his damning silence. Now his lapdogs yap for every life I take, while the gods promise me the galaxy."


Svane Vulfbad

Grimtuff
11-02-2011, 10:20
As I have argued elsewhere, I think the observation comes from a (in my opinion) misconception of Chaos.


Um, no. This is YOUR misconception. People want the Legions and monotheistic CSM armies are more the norm with practically every CSM player I know. It seems to be only you that wants the "Space pirates with daddy issues" incarnation of the CSM from the current codex, yet you can't accept that this opinion is in a major minority by a country mile.

AlexHolker
11-02-2011, 10:26
Once again, Zweischneid says something I oppose utterly. The concept that some worshipper of Slaanesh that hates Khorne is going to drag some worshippers of Khorne along with him to battle if he can possibly avoid it cannot be justified by anything but metagaming. It's like saying the Space Wolves should always take Inquisitors or else you're "missing/neglecting a major and important element of the fluff".

DarkstarSabre
11-02-2011, 10:27
To be perfectly frank.....Renegades and Legions should always have been different codexes anyhow. Simply because the tactics used, the equipment used and the organisation should be different.

Think about it. Renegades (i.e. the supposed focus of the current Codex) are supposed to be less 'veteran' yet with more modern equipment and greater numbers.

The Legions are supposed to be hardened veterans using archaic equipment but with closer links to the Gods.

4th edition codex gave us.....

Less veteran troops using archaic equipment. Right. Suuuuuure.

I'm sure when a Chapter turns traitor they crack out the Reaper Autocannons they had in storage because they magically forgot how to use Assault Cannons.

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2011, 10:42
I can see an Undivided Lord having units from any of the gods in his force and those units not getting along so well.

Now, if your Lord were to have a Mark other than Undivided, this should, of course, affect your army composition.

Zweischneid
11-02-2011, 10:44
Think about it. Renegades (i.e. the supposed focus of the current Codex) are supposed to be less 'veteran' yet with more modern equipment and greater numbers.

The Legions are supposed to be hardened veterans using archaic equipment but with closer links to the Gods.
.

That is not at all how it is suppose to be.

Many Renegades are well into their 10th Millenium of life and have participated in the Heresy itself (e.g. the Purge, etc..). Many also fight under the banner of more recently fallen Lords/Champions like Huron (who commands a Flagship from the Word Bearers).

Many "Legion" marines are quite recent turncoats (e.g. Zufhor).

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2011, 10:47
I am unfamiliar with Zufhor's history. Could someone give me a brief history lesson?

Zweischneid
11-02-2011, 10:55
I am unfamiliar with Zufhor's history. Could someone give me a brief history lesson?

Zhufor (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zhufor)



Originally, Zhufor was known as Balzach, a sergeant of the Storm Lords Chapter. During a battle against the World Eaters for the hives of Paramar, he was wounded and taken captive by the enemy. Balzach was drugged, tortured and underwent psycho-corrective surgery which rearranged his brainwave patterns. When his ordeal was over, he was reborn as Zhufor and joined the World Eater's ranks as a psychopathic Berzerker.


Zhufor is notable also because he rose to rank and power, becoming both a Chaos Lord and, rumours have it, a close ally of Abbadon. But his induction into the "Legion" is likely not untypical to how the World Eaters (or other Legions) keep their ranks.

There is nothing in the Codex Chaos Space Marines stating that any given "Legion-Marine" in "40K" would, on average, be even a day older than any given Renegade. Also note the way it states that the Eye of Terror messes with time in the first place.

And, from a game-design-perspective, the point of Renegades was not to create a "different breed" of Chaos Space Marines that would be older/younger or have better/newer/different equipment, but rather to motivate players to make Chaos Space Marines inspired by the official/pre-given Legions but of their own styling, paint-job and background (somewhat inline with the 4th Edition Space Marine Codexes emphasis on DIY-Chapters; which admittedly, also went away with 5th).

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2011, 10:58
Well, courtesy ADB and his Night Lords novel, we know anyone with something to offer can join the Black Legion. And with Zufor's story, it's probably a good bet the World Eaters have had that kind of party before.

Wishing
11-02-2011, 11:28
From previous threads as well as this one, we know that Zweischneid thinks mono-legion and mono-god armies are unfluffy and unnatural, and that all chaos armies should be mixed. While I respect this view and agree that the potential for mixing is very iconic for chaos, I think there should be just as much potential for going mono-god, simply because armies with a thematic focus just look and feel great and can be equally iconic. Personally I feel that the best way to make chaos feel like chaos and not just like loyalists with a different paint scheme is to integrate cultists, mutants and beastmen into the lists.

Zweischneid
11-02-2011, 11:37
From previous threads as well as this one, we know that Zweischneid thinks mono-legion and mono-god armies are unfluffy and unnatural, and that all chaos armies should be mixed. While I respect this view and agree that the potential for mixing is very iconic for chaos, I think there should be just as much potential for going mono-god, simply because armies with a thematic focus just look and feel great and can be equally iconic. Personally I feel that the best way to make chaos feel like chaos and not just like loyalists with a different paint scheme is to integrate cultists, mutants and beastmen into the lists.

There's mixing two arguments.

You (We) may know that I think mono-Legion/God armies are unfluffy (unless you're playing Heresy-area "historic" 40K, or better 30K). True. But I also acknowledge that this is my opinion. (and hey, I am not starting these threads, am I? Why are others allowed to repeat their opinions but I am not?)

Also, there is this notion that Renegades are a "different breed" to Legion-Marines, younger, less experienced, with more contemporary equipment.

Unlike the former, which is a difference between opinions, this latter point is simply an outright wrong/false reading of the background as far as I am aware of it.

Wishing
11-02-2011, 11:45
To be honest, this thread doesn't seem to be about anything in particular, mainly proxying chaos armies for imperial armies and the implications of doing so. But it's always fun to air one's opinions. I agree about the legion/renegade thing though, that legion marines can easily be younger than renegade marines... the difference is just that the legions have an atmosphere of seniority about them that renegade marines don't.

Armchair General
11-02-2011, 12:19
Personally I have no problem with the forces of opposing gods fighting on the same battlefield, especially if they are fighting against an Imperial army. The whole background of the animosities stems from, for instance, Khorne worshippers thinking that the followers of Slaanesh are effete ponces, while Slaaneshi individuals will look down on Khornate warriors as uncivilised and brutal (or something like that). The key thing though is that these antagonisms take the form of 'looking down on' the followers of another god, not a personal kind of hatred as if they'd killed your grandma. After all, arrogance is not an uncommon trait among CSMs now is it, and they are all *nominally* on the same side.

I personally (and this is my personal view, with no evidence to back it up) is that Khorne and Slaanesh would *relish* the opportunity to fight alongside each other, to prove to the other one how much better they were. Now, sure, if I was a Slaanesh worshipper I wouldn't want to encounter three Khorne Berzerkers in a dark alley, and we know that conflicts do arise on between opposing gods' forces (although I'm sure Khorne and Nurgle, for instance, fight as well). However, surely they'd rather butcher the servants of the false Emperor than each other? Tbh, I reckon it depends entirely on the character of the particular Chaos lord - seeing as how basically all Chaos armies are ruled by fear, if the Lord wants the Slaanesh and Khorne forces to fight side by side, I'm sure they will - after all, they all want to win the battles.

If this were fantasy, I'd think that something along the lines of units not being allowed to use the leadership of an opposing god character, but also being able to ignore panic caused by opposing god units running away would be suitable. This being 40k, were leadership is somewhat redundant, I don't know. Maybe make it so that if a Khorne unit (say) is able to assault a unit that is already in combat with a Slaanesh unit, then it must assault (and vice versa) but gains preferred enemy for that turn? I dunno - this wasn't a rules development thread...

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2011, 12:26
Undivided characters can join any unit. Characters with a God Mark can only join units with that Mark/Icon. Tah dah. Make Marked units (see: Cult Units) Elites and CSM squads with options for Icons as troops. Lord has a God Mark, units with the same Mark count as troops. Simple enough and it fits within the current rules paradigm.

Mercutius
11-02-2011, 12:42
Big rant, sorry for that, take your's a cup of coffee... :-)

When I started with WH40k it was in the beginning of the 3d. I had' no idear of what is what, just saw some Elder from a friend who gives me an short indroduction of the game.
I went immediatly into the next GW and buy a Starterbox. Read through the book, just from the modells in there, there could be only one army to play: CSM

I think they had the best models of all 40k armis at that time. And a lot of that models are still used in the codex, ore be interchanged for a rel. short time. For example: the Termis. And the Termis are a good example for my biggest problem which I have with the CSMs since the latest codex.

Ok, the old pewter Termis were small and static in their pose. But in every other way they're far imperior to the new ones, at last IMO! Jes, I can convert them now, much esier, but why cant GW put the same effort into the CSM models as they are doin with the actual SMs?

It's not entirely true, ok, the new obliterators are a very big improvement, Huron is also good, but most of the newer stuff is not better, often more worse than the very old ones. Ahriman, Fabius Bile, Abbadon, the old general, etc, etc, are still better than a lot of our new stuff we get the last years.

Also the basic troops, apart from converting, the old pewter ones aren't bad compared with the new ones.

So, when I started with CSM I could by CSM minitures, paint them and had an very on top lookin' army. Nowadays, I have to by a lot more stuff, put enormous effort into converting to reach the same level. Ok, its part of the hobby and makes a lot of fun, but Its also more time consuming and also more expensive.

The other big problem besides of that is the following: the absolute power of the book/army is not so interesting for me, even if I went to GTs when I was younger :-), but the Kodex should give me the opportunity to field that army that I wanted to field, that I want to play and on which I'm now workin' on for a lot of years (have not so much time for this).

As I already told you, startet with the third, the Kodex at that time was realy good, but, it becomes even better, every kodex* wich followed (and by that I ment not only the 'normal' Kodex, all additional books and games, BFG, Streetfights, APO and so on), becomes better and better! An with better I mean: the background was developed, and the rules allows you to field an army that you wanted. There were realy great options for every possible CSM-army that you wanted to play. CSM community that I knew, was all satisfied and happy.

The latest Codex changed that all: quality of the minis went down (as I allready explaint, IMO), but more worse than that: background changed drastically, where in all the years before it was only developed and that also followed always the same direction, it is now totaly crap for someone who reads the books and all the backgroundstory and also holds most of the special Stuff from the black library for chaos.

I feel that GW hacked the head off from CSM! Powerwise it may work, but it has lost all his personality, greatness, darkness, diversity and all what it makes it unique.

How I see 40k now ist that: GW just takes all the grand lines from the CSM and build with that the new SM Chapters. From a fluff point of view (I know, I will be get killes when I say that, but anyway :-)), the SMs are all so simmilar, one Kodex would have been enough. But I also know that SMs are the big sellers, so they get all the stuff.

Jeah, live with it ore leave it, I know. But its hard, CSM went all the years straight upwards and now it falls down. From a fluff point of view, that fits the Chaos very well :-)).

But nowadays I can realy understand why so many CSM Players just take one of the SM Codieces and plays their army with that rules, because there are a lot of the legions ruleswise...

I'm very sory if I can't make my point clear, I'm not an native speaker. And that is all only my oppinion, don't want to go against anybody here :-).

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2011, 12:48
If I got your point, then you are saying what a lot of Chaos players think, it lacks diversity. It has no character. Or, at least, it certainly feels that way.

I own every Codex currently except Witch Hunters. I don't play all of them, of course, but I like to own them, read them and know the rules. I also enjoy sitting and writing up army lists for fun. Just to get myself thinking. A thought exercise. Except I have yet to actually be able to finish a Chaos list. It just feels so...boring.

Castigator
11-02-2011, 12:53
, but more worse than that: background changed drastically, where in all the years before it was only developed and that also followed always the same direction, it is now totaly crap for someone who reads the books and all the backgroundstory and also holds most of the special Stuff from the black library for chaos.


I keep hearing that over and over (and over and over) and over again when people talk about the 4th Edition Chaos Dex.

But noone ever elaborates. Where exactly did they change direction? What is so different? What backstory was changed or retconned?

Sure, no Codex (Chaos or otherwise) can ever give the detail and depth of hundreds upon hundreds of pages of BL-novels, but I think the 4th Edition CSM book does cover all the bases, as well as adding a sufficient amount of "close-ups" concerning specific events (Skalathrax, Wolf of Fenris, etc..) that mark the character of specific characters or units.

Souleater
11-02-2011, 13:25
Chaos has had mono-legions since Slaves to Darkness and The Lost & The Damned.

AlexHolker
11-02-2011, 13:30
I personally (and this is my personal view, with no evidence to back it up) is that Khorne and Slaanesh would *relish* the opportunity to fight alongside each other, to prove to the other one how much better they were.
They're not rival sports teams, you know.


Now, sure, if I was a Slaanesh worshipper I wouldn't want to encounter three Khorne Berzerkers in a dark alley, and we know that conflicts do arise on between opposing gods' forces (although I'm sure Khorne and Nurgle, for instance, fight as well).
Sure, if you count little squabbles like Skalathrax, where a Champion of Khorne single-handedly destroyed the World Eaters as an organisation because they let a little thing like death stand between them and killing Slaanesh-worshippers.

Zweischneid
11-02-2011, 13:39
They're not rival sports teams, you know.


Sure, if you count little squabbles like Skalathrax, where a Champion of Khorne single-handedly destroyed the World Eaters as an organisation because they let a little thing like death stand between them and killing Slaanesh-worshippers.

Kharn did not destroy the World Eaters because they were not killing Slannesh-worshippers.

Kharn destroyed the World Eaters because they were not killing. Full stop.

Indeed, Kharn did (and does) not kill Slannesh-worshippers with any more or less relish than he does killing anyone else, including World Eaters and Khorne-worshippers, and vice versa. That sort of defines the guy, does it not?

Armchair General
11-02-2011, 14:17
They're not rival sports teams, you know.


They might as well be - competing for the ultimate prize of daemonhood.


Sure, if you count little squabbles like Skalathrax, where a Champion of Khorne single-handedly destroyed the World Eaters as an organisation because they let a little thing like death stand between them and killing Slaanesh-worshippers.


I realise it may be easier to just go 'Khorne + Slaanesh = KILL!!!' But personally I think it is more interesting to think about the how and the why this rivalry may occur. The fluff gives us the reasons behind this animosity. It's there, written down. Basically it comes down to who's 'killing right.' All I said was that they may well compete in ways other by directly fighting each other, especially given the presence of enemy forces.

Let's say there is a Bezerker and a Noise Marine in a room. There's probably going to be a battle. Ok. Now let's say there's a Noise Marine, a Berzerker and a Loyalist in the room. Surely the Chaos followers will put aside their mutual animosity first and get the Loyalist before turning on each other, especially if they went into the room specifically to kill him? Now let's say a powerful Chaos lord walks in just after the Loyalist is dead, and orders the other two to leave off the fighting because they're about to (for instance) attack an Imperial world. Is this scenario not even vaguely feasible?

Consider this - if the followers of Khorne prefer killing Slaanesh worshippers more than killing anyone else, why do we ever see Bezerkers outside the Eye of Terror? Why bother travelling all the way to attack an Imperial world just to say 'well this is fun, but I could have just stayed home and fought some Noise Marines'?

Personally I think this stems somewhat from the idea that all followers of Khorne are crazy psychopaths who hack up anything that comes anywhere near them. Which is patently ridiculous - even Kharn needs someone to fly his spaceship...

Having said all this, the wonderful thing about the 40k universe, and particularly Chaos, is that your interpretation is no less valid than mine. I'm just trying to explain what I think. Personally, I like the idea of a highly charismatic Chaos lord having bonded together a warband from the various disparate forces that make up 'Chaos.'


Incidentally, we always talk about Khorne and Slaanesh in these discussions, but in theory at least, Nurgle and Tzeentch should be no less opposed. How old is the background regarding the rivalries between gods? And was Nurgle/Tzeentch included at the beginning with as much prominance as Khorne/Slaanesh?

:)

AlexHolker
11-02-2011, 15:07
They might as well be - competing for the ultimate prize of daemonhood.
No, they aren't. Worshippers of Chaos Undivided might be, since presumably any or all of the Chaos Gods could sponsor his ascension to daemonhood, but the only one a Champion of Khorne is going to worry about pleasing is Khorne.


Now let's say there's a Noise Marine, a Berzerker and a Loyalist in the room. Surely the Chaos followers will put aside their mutual animosity first and get the Loyalist before turning on each other, especially if they went into the room specifically to kill him?
Your scenario can only work as a hypothetical. A Noise Marine, a Berzerker and a Loyalist cannot be in the same room without each first entering the room, and any way you cut it, this is going to involve the Noise Marine and Berzerker having the opportunity to start killing each other before they have any reason to work together.


Now let's say a powerful Chaos lord walks in just after the Loyalist is dead, and orders the other two to leave off the fighting because they're about to (for instance) attack an Imperial world. Is this scenario not even vaguely feasible?
I agree that a lord of Chaos Undivided (like Abaddon) can get them to serve in the same army. But Zweischneid's argument relies either on lords of specific gods not existing, or cultists of one god serving a lord that worships their rival. Which is absurd.


Incidentally, we always talk about Khorne and Slaanesh in these discussions, but in theory at least, Nurgle and Tzeentch should be no less opposed.
I'd expect their rivalry to involve them working at cross purposes more than open warfare. Tzeentch's plots are less likely to come to Nurgle's attention than one of Khorne's "Kill everything between here and here" plans, and sorcerers and dust explicitly protected from the physical corruption of the Warp are unlikely to get caught directly by one of Nurgle's plagues.

Stronginthearm
11-02-2011, 16:10
I keep hearing that over and over (and over and over) and over again when people talk about the 4th Edition Chaos Dex.

But noone ever elaborates. Where exactly did they change direction? What is so different? What backstory was changed or retconned?

Sure, no Codex (Chaos or otherwise) can ever give the detail and depth of hundreds upon hundreds of pages of BL-novels, but I think the 4th Edition CSM book does cover all the bases, as well as adding a sufficient amount of "close-ups" concerning specific events (Skalathrax, Wolf of Fenris, etc..) that mark the character of specific characters or units.

The previous codex had something along the lines of 8+ different armies and rules for such (admittedly the alpha legion and light lords rules were a bit... eh) you could field a mono slaanesh list with pure slaanesh items and toys and get bonuses for it, or you could field bits and pieces of other things thrown together black legion style. The point was that there was so much diversity, actually I think there was less "fluff" (defined here as storys within the codex), but there was so much stuff for the army, and there was none of this, "Im going to field Typhus with a bunch of berzerkers" stuff there were certain things that you could NOT do because they made no sense

Wishing
11-02-2011, 16:15
They might as well be - competing for the ultimate prize of daemonhood.

I quite like the analogy of rival sports teams too, with the caveat that they also represent the hooligans of each team who love nothing more than to beat each others' brains out.



Incidentally, we always talk about Khorne and Slaanesh in these discussions, but in theory at least, Nurgle and Tzeentch should be no less opposed. How old is the background regarding the rivalries between gods? And was Nurgle/Tzeentch included at the beginning with as much prominance as Khorne/Slaanesh?

Well, nurgle and tzeentch were in the second (and better) RoC book, where khorne and slaanesh were in the first book. Also, khorne seems to be the most popular god overall, so I guess that's why he's always in the examples. But yes, nurgle and tzeentch were just as much rivals back then. One of my favourite pieces of artwork from their book depicts a diseased nurgle champion grabbing a winged tzeentch champion and trying to whack him with his axe.

Armchair General
11-02-2011, 16:51
I quite like the analogy of rival sports teams too, with the caveat that they also represent the hooligans of each team who love nothing more than to beat each others' brains out.

Yeah, I agree - I was going to try to include that in my response, but it became too waffley.


Well, nurgle and tzeentch were in the second (and better) RoC book, where khorne and slaanesh were in the first book. Also, khorne seems to be the most popular god overall, so I guess that's why he's always in the examples. But yes, nurgle and tzeentch were just as much rivals back then. One of my favourite pieces of artwork from their book depicts a diseased nurgle champion grabbing a winged tzeentch champion and trying to whack him with his axe.

Ah, ok. It sort of feels, at times, that the nurgle/tzeentch one was sort of shoe-horned in afterwards as a kind of 'oh, yeah, and these guys hate each other too,' and not really developed as much as the khorne/slaanesh one.

Armchair General
11-02-2011, 17:10
They might as well be - competing for the ultimate prize of daemonhood.
No, they aren't. Worshippers of Chaos Undivided might be, since presumably any or all of the Chaos Gods could sponsor his ascension to daemonhood, but the only one a Champion of Khorne is going to worry about pleasing is Khorne.

Ok, I don’t really see what you’re getting at here. I’m not suggesting (because I agree, it would be stupid) that a Khorne Champion is going to be interested in the patronage of anyone but Khorne. Only that Khorne might look favourably on a Champion who makes a Champion of Slaanesh look stupid by demonstrating how much better at fighting the Khorne way is. The opportunity to make your rivals lose face before their god might be worth taking?




Now let's say there's a Noise Marine, a Berzerker and a Loyalist in the room. Surely the Chaos followers will put aside their mutual animosity first and get the Loyalist before turning on each other, especially if they went into the room specifically to kill him?

Your scenario can only work as a hypothetical. A Noise Marine, a Berzerker and a Loyalist cannot be in the same room without each first entering the room, and any way you cut it, this is going to involve the Noise Marine and Berzerker having the opportunity to start killing each other before they have any reason to work together.

Congratulations – you win first prize in the ‘How to not answer the question’ competition. Are you a politician by any chance?
Light-hearted ribbing aside (;)) , how about this for an alternative. Instead of a room, it’s a planet. A squad of berzerkers and a squad of noise marines deploy in separate dreadclaws and when they arrive they find themselves equidistant from each other and from a squad of loyalists.
What happens?




Now let's say a powerful Chaos lord walks in just after the Loyalist is dead, and orders the other two to leave off the fighting because they're about to (for instance) attack an Imperial world. Is this scenario not even vaguely feasible?

I agree that a lord of Chaos Undivided (like Abaddon) can get them to serve in the same army. But Zweischneid's argument relies either on lords of specific gods not existing, or cultists of one god serving a lord that worships their rival. Which is absurd.

Ok, this is fair enough – I hadn’t got that impression from this thread, and haven’t been following any others. But I think it is possible for it to work in terms of the ‘your battle is just part of a larger campaign’ exercise. Maybe the undivided super-lord (although I always thought that a tzeentchian lord would be particularly good at getting his underlings to work together despite their other natures) has told a slaanesh squad to fight under the directions of a khorne lord, and that we’re only seeing that part of the battle / campaign. But I agree it’s tenuous, and I don’t like it much. I’ve been mostly assuming Undivided, or at least not strongly opposed, lords.




Incidentally, we always talk about Khorne and Slaanesh in these discussions, but in theory at least, Nurgle and Tzeentch should be no less opposed.
I'd expect their rivalry to involve them working at cross purposes more than open warfare. Tzeentch's plots are less likely to come to Nurgle's attention than one of Khorne's "Kill everything between here and here" plans, and sorcerers and dust explicitly protected from the physical corruption of the Warp are unlikely to get caught directly by one of Nurgle's plagues.

That makes lots of sense, and in many ways opens up more unusual avenues for exploration than the khorne/slaanesh divide. Hmm – may have to do some thinking about that one…
(see, we can agree! ;))

Maybe I'll write something explaining my interpretations of (bits of) the nature of Chaos and the way they might fight - might help to clear some of the confusion resulting from different viewpoints.

Incidentally, and I'm not accusing you of this AlexHolker, does it strike anyone as odd that, whilst people who advocate multi-god armies do not typically accuse mono-god armies of being unfluffy, the reverse does not hold true?

Souleater
11-02-2011, 17:23
Mono god Legions came into existence with the Slaves to Darkness + The Lost and the Damned books. Arguing that they don't represent the correct idea of 'Chaos' is ridiculous.

Sometimes the Legions fight each other, sometimes they fight alongside each other. That is irrelevant.

I'm asking if GW has - unwittingly or not - given us codexes that fit some of the Legions while trying to make 'unique' codexes for the loyalist chapters.

AlexHolker
11-02-2011, 17:32
Ok, I don’t really see what you’re getting at here.
I'm saying that they're not in competition for the same prize.


Congratulations – you win first prize in the ‘How to not answer the question’ competition. Are you a politician by any chance?
Light-hearted ribbing aside (;)) , how about this for an alternative. Instead of a room, it’s a planet. A squad of berzerkers and a squad of noise marines deploy in separate dreadclaws and when they arrive they find themselves equidistant from each other and from a squad of loyalists.
What happens?
It cannot happen in a vacuum. Either they are from the same fleet under the command of the same Chaos Undivided lord, or they would be from two separate fleets coming to attack the same planet, and as much a threat to each others' plans as the Imperials are.


Incidentally, and I'm not accusing you of this AlexHolker, does it strike anyone as odd that, whilst people who advocate multi-god armies do not typically accuse mono-god armies of being unfluffy, the reverse does not hold true?
No. You'd have to be a complete idiot to claim that mono-god armies are unfluffy, while there are some pretty obvious examples of multi-god armies that would be off even if they were close allies.

Armchair General
11-02-2011, 17:55
I'm saying that they're not in competition for the same prize.


It cannot happen in a vacuum. Either they are from the same fleet under the command of the same Chaos Undivided lord, or they would be from two separate fleets coming to attack the same planet, and as much a threat to each others' plans as the Imperials are.


No. You'd have to be a complete idiot to claim that mono-god armies are unfluffy, while there are some pretty obvious examples of multi-god armies that would be off even if they were close allies.


Hmmm, well, all I'm trying to say is, to each his own. We obviously like different things about the background. I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise; simply to explain where I'm coming from. I think part of the problem is that there are so many possible combinations of circumstance that it is impossible to make any hard and fast rules either way. Which, if I may say so, is where the 'Khorne and Slaanesh should never be on the same side' argument falls down - never is a very strong word.

Wishing
11-02-2011, 21:23
I'm asking if GW has - unwittingly or not - given us codexes that fit some of the Legions while trying to make 'unique' codexes for the loyalist chapters.

Many players would say so. I personally don't. When you do "counts as", after you've stripped the list of all names and descriptions and are left with just raw numbers, you can pretty much argue that anything fits anything else if you want. To me, a chaos list is one that has marks of chaos, daemons, spawn, mutations, etc.


Ok, I don’t really see what you’re getting at here. I’m not suggesting (because I agree, it would be stupid) that a Khorne Champion is going to be interested in the patronage of anyone but Khorne. Only that Khorne might look favourably on a Champion who makes a Champion of Slaanesh look stupid by demonstrating how much better at fighting the Khorne way is. The opportunity to make your rivals lose face before their god might be worth taking?

My view as well. As I see it, chaos warbands compete for attention of their gods all the time in the eye of terror. If a strange artifact is discovered, several warbands might flock to the site to claim it and fight it out, and only the winner gets the praise and rewards of their chosen patron - the losers get only scorn and indifference.

DeeKay
11-02-2011, 23:53
I seem to remember a quote from one of the Chaos books reading through this thread: "Many have debated the true nature of Chaos and all have died insane." Okay, I can't recall the quote word for word, but the message stands.

Chaos should be about 3 things.

1) Variety. You like mix and match? Bam, you have it. Maybe you prefer the mono-God idea? That should be cool too. Whether there are rules to support mono-God lists to make up for a loss of tactical flexibility or not is hard to say, especially after people start hating on the 3.5 Codex. (Yes, it was abusable. We get it.)

2) High risk, high reward. Let's be honest, I can't think of any marine player willing to use the current CSM book to represent their loyalist marine chapter, but many Chaos players have jumped from SW to BA and I know of at least some who are looking forward to the new GK book in April. A Chaos book should represent a huge amount of power, enough to humble even the mighty Mephiston, but there should be an appropriate level of risk involved too. Pushing your luck should allow a player to win big or lose big. Either way, the risk-reward element needs to be re-introduced.

3) The Champions of the Gods. Sorry to rain on the secular parade here, but Chaos Space Marines are mortal servants of the Chaos Gods. You know, the title should give it away. Anyway, even from the earliest fluff, the forces of Chaos have been about one or more champions leading their forces to damnation, whether in triumph or defeat is down to them and their success or lack therof.

As for Huron, I think as it stands, he probably belongs as something for Apocalypse games, where mix and match equipment is fair game. Failing that, as a Marine character with a rule that disallows any other marine SC.

With regards,
Dan.

Wyrmwood
12-02-2011, 00:43
I can understand both points of view, from a fluff respective. But the Codex doesn't communicate it well/enough.

In a more Renegade focussed Codex, Legionaries from the Crusade/Heresy should be given an almost mythical overtone; these are the guys that burned entire worlds, lived and fought in a time of galactic carnage not rivalled since; when the Emperor and the Primarchs themselves walked and fought and died in the conflict. Hell, some of them were even confidant to the Primarchs - may have fought in Honour Guards, as Captains and Commanders; even conversed and fought with the Emperor.

These are the guys that incited wars across the galaxy and butchered thousands; their geneseed pure, perfectly refined and not degraded- unlike current Astartes.
The guys that fought in the War in Heaven; set foot on Terra, on Calth, on Istvaan and other almost mythical worlds of angels and demons.

These are the guys that *survived*.
The Great Crusade, the Horus Heresy and the Scouring.
The best of the best.

And if they're to take a background role (as in, almost absent/extinct - but for Lords etc), the threat of the original Legionnaires *must* be emphasised in a prophetic, apocalyptic; reverent and legendary/mythical tone - like dead gods from a dead age when even the lowliest Space Marine was a hero to rival Veterans. But the Codex doesn't paint them in that light, or anything similar.
So it fails. On both fronts, by comparison.

Those that survived, are Titans of that age; genius' - some broken and insane, nevertheless -, warriors with burning gazes and a nauseating presence, for their passion; that *demands* respect. Lords, Chosen all.

It doesn't even emphasise that some- most- are broken, regret filled and hopeless; bitter, but still they fight with a burning hatred *unrivalled*. That split should be crossed with the 'faded glory of emerging, bastardised Legionnaires resorting to piracy for resupply - but falling on the Imperium and newborn alike with a ferocity unmatched, reminding all that these were warriors now without peer. That carved the galaxy, and then again in two; a brutal reminder to all of the fear and power of the Legions.'... Or something.

Not that Renegades are useless etc, and they all have their reasons for leaving the Imperium, but the comparison needs to be there; that these guys are pale reflections, while still Astartes - still mighty, they are not on the same level as the Legionaries.

Mannimarco
12-02-2011, 00:49
Wyrmwood to write the next Chaos codex!

brother arkio
12-02-2011, 00:59
I would like to hereby pledge my support of Mannimarco's proposal for my friend and neighbour to write the next chaos codex. His points match my own thoughts exactly on the subject of the difference between renegades and really members of the legion from the heresy.

Lord Asgul
12-02-2011, 01:34
Personally I think that the equipment issue (archaic weaponry in Legions only) doesn't really count for Iron Warriors, since I believe in their Index Astartes or their mention in the 3.5 Codex states that they take care of their weapons and equipment, hell they even recover Imperial wrecks and use them in their armies. I've even added that into my new Chaos Warband that I started 6 months ago; it is a contingent of Word Bearers, Alpha Legion (very small amount to account for the AL Cells), Night Lords (which I've yet to start) and Black Legion (5 Chosen, called the Eyes of Abaddon); all these are led by the Iron Warriors, all the tanks are Iron Warriors including the Shadowsword (except the Word Bearers Rhino). I don't have any renegades chapters or forces in my army since I feel that the older Legions, especially Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion would probably kill them and take the relatively new equipment (hence one of my 5-man Iron Warrior Havocs being armed with 4 Plasma Cannons). Before anyone says anything, I don't play tournaments, just against mates and people I know. Also I am in the process of converting an Obliterator-Carnifex hybrid (I was inspired by the Iron Warriors Hive Ship with the Obliterator Virus). Anyways on to the point.
I also have a small allied Chaos Daemons force (more allied to the WB and BL than the other 3) which; as it stands, is all Khorne: 28 Bloodletters and 2 Heralds. But I do plan to add a Slaaneshi and a Tzeentchian element to this force, because the daemons will stop squabbling and attack other armies/civilians/grox together when the needs arise. The same goes for the Legions, doesn't nearly (not all) every Black Crusade kind of show that they will fight together to mash the Imperium. Out of the times of these Black Crusades, the forces do tend to go round in warbands of predominately one legion only, however they can call in favours per se. Hence why my force is led by an Iron Warrior Warsmith but has allies in the Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Black Legion. Some of the Allies have allies themselves (Word Bearer's Daemonic Allies). So this allies with their own allies would inevitably lead to the forces of different gods working together for a period of time.

What I am trying to say is this. Neither side is wrong. There are times when there will be armies with so many different Legions, Renegades and Daemons in that there would be less colours in oil floating on water when you look at it from a certain angle. Then there will be times when huge warbands from one legion or renegade army just appears and hand your **** to you on a plate and scream "EAT IT" at you until you do, then they kill you with the plate.
When it comes to equipment, for chaos their armouries are probably full with random weapons from the Unification Wars to the Great Crusade to the Heresy to the 13th Black Crusade and all points in between since; I believe, Legionaries and Renegades aren't fussy when it comes to looting battlefields of ammo and anything useful because to be honest; when you are fighting against a galactic empire that outnumbers you (most of this paragraph doesn't count for Daemons), you'll need everything weapon you can find even if the galactic empire can take a century to launch a counter-assault. You aren't going to pass up a chance to use an assault cannon or plasma cannon when your reaper autocannon has ran out of ammunition and there is said assault cannon on the corpse of a loyalist marine next to you.

Lunk
12-02-2011, 02:32
As a player of Chaos since second edition, I think some of you are missing the point. I used to believe like some of you, why would a new renegade give up his assault cannon? Because this isn't a game about supply lines and manufactured equipment. The fluff has it's purpose, but we shouldn't be consumed by it. We have reapers because we are not regular marines.
The problem I have is our current codex isn't fun, and other than a few builds, isn't very viable on the field. To illustrate my point, the daemon prince's lack of options. Space Wolves have more options with their lowest hq choice, wolf guard battle leader has almost as many options as the wolf lord. I was told at the beginning of second edition play chaos if you like to convert and build miniatures. I like to do that.
The Space Wolf codex is fun, and I have decided to make Skyrar's Dark Wolves army. I am even considering some type of tzeentch disc to represent land speeders. I would make them the appropriate size. I was told this was cheesy because Chaos doesn't get speeders. The fluff should influence the game, not hinder it, or restrain it.

FabricatorGeneralMike
12-02-2011, 02:51
As a player of Chaos since second edition, I think some of you are missing the point. I used to believe like some of you, why would a new renegade give up his assault cannon? Because this isn't a game about supply lines and manufactured equipment. The fluff has it's purpose, but we shouldn't be consumed by it. We have reapers because we are not regular marines.
The problem I have is our current codex isn't fun, and other than a few builds, isn't very viable on the field. To illustrate my point, the daemon prince's lack of options. Space Wolves have more options with their lowest hq choice, wolf guard battle leader has almost as many options as the wolf lord. I was told at the beginning of second edition play chaos if you like to convert and build miniatures. I like to do that.
The Space Wolf codex is fun, and I have decided to make Skyrar's Dark Wolves army. I am even considering some type of tzeentch disc to represent land speeders. I would make them the appropriate size. I was told this was cheesy because Chaos doesn't get speeders. The fluff should influence the game, not hinder it, or restrain it.

Why not make Silver towers of Tzeentch? Fluffy and makes total sence to me.

Personally, I think wyrmwood should right the new dex. He captures the feel of the 'I made my choice and by khorne im going to live with it.'

Lunk
12-02-2011, 03:55
Silver towers are big. There is a data sheet for them for apocalypse. They are tougher than a speeder also. I like the idea of a disc/chariot being pulled by some type of flying daemon.

Mannimarco
12-02-2011, 04:05
like the Tzeentch chariot they showed a conversion of in WG for the old SOC campaign.

It was a big disc being pulled by a pair of screamers with a couple of blue horrors on top of it.

Ironwarrior177
12-02-2011, 05:21
As I have argued elsewhere, I think the observation comes from a (in my opinion) misconception of Chaos.

Loyalist Marines have always pushed one theme or another. As such, these books have always fit mono-God/Legion armies better (which doesn't deny a trend to push towards a cartoony end).

What Chaos Marines (should) excel at, in my opinion, is precisely the mix of themes reflected in the .. for lack of a better word ... chaotic (not random) nature of Chaos and their ad-hoc alliances of formerly separate Legions.

A good Chaos army IMO has BOTH Slannesh and Khorne units, or BOTH Tzeentsch and Nurgle units, along with ideally some modern version of old-school animosity-rules to represent the fragility of a typical Chaos alliance.

That, I think, is the jump to make from fluff to game: there is no point in GW writing about inter-Chaos-god enemity and animosity, if players do not bring precisely this animostiy to the table. A Chaos Marine Player fielding a Khorne army without Slannesh units is, IMO, missing/neglecting a major and important element of the fluff; namely the general antagonism between Slannesh and Khorne despite still being on the same "side", so to speak.

In short: leave specialization to a theme to the Loyalists. And make Chaos Chaos!

So let me get this straight. Your vision of a perfect chaos viewpoint, is total order.... not CSM doing what ever they want (i.e. Iron warriors being overly paranoid to the point where they rarely work with other CSM, World eaters completely hating anything to do with magic as their lord commands, or Tzeentch and Nurgle working together even though one is completely right wing while the other is left winged.

Chaos is chaos, chaos does not coincide with chaos or order, that's why its chaos, that's why Khorne Berzerkers will turn on themselves when their not in battle just to please khorne,

DarkstarSabre
12-02-2011, 06:00
Also, there is this notion that Renegades are a "different breed" to Legion-Marines, younger, less experienced, with more contemporary equipment.

Unlike the former, which is a difference between opinions, this latter point is simply an outright wrong/false reading of the background as far as I am aware of it.

So....you're telling me they drop the Assault Cannons, Land Speeders, Multi Meltas and Plasma Cannons and go pull the rusty old Reaper Autocannons and Autocannons out of the back of the armory?

Wait. This is another one of those threads where you criticise the idea of Mono-Legion Chaos armies which have been present since, well, Rogue Trader.

Renegades are a different breed. There is a distinct difference between Legion and Renegade - the key one being that the Renegades don't even have to be aligned to Chaos in the slightest where all the Legions are. Their equipment, organisation and resources are all different. And the current Codex doesn't do justice to that, with the 'Mark' system being killed off by 'icons' which the 5th ed. wound allocation rules can crippled fairly quickly.

Zweischneid
12-02-2011, 09:14
So....you're telling me they drop the Assault Cannons, Land Speeders, Multi Meltas and Plasma Cannons and go pull the rusty old Reaper Autocannons and Autocannons out of the back of the armory?

Renegades are a different breed.

They are not. Some examples....

- The Purge, Renegade Marine Chapter, noted to fight at least since M37/38 (3000 years before S. of Vraks), but are rumored to be former Death Guard Marines.

- Apostles of MinthRas, Renegade Marine Chapter, first raided from the Eye of Terror in M33.

- Red Corsairs, Fell to Chaos after the Badab War (M41). Under Huron, the Chaos Dex has confirmed that they include sizable numbers of Word Bearer and Death Guard Legion Marines.

- The Reborn, Renegade Chapter, noted specifically for using armour and equipment even more antiquated than the Heresy Legions. Origin unknown.

- The Sanctified, Renegade Chapter, fought in the Heresy and split from the Word Bearers after the Horus Heresy to follow the worship of Khorne.

- Silver Guards, Renegade Marine Chapter, fought during the Obscuran Uprising (Late M34).

- Sons of Vengance, Renegade Marine Chapter, fought during the Obscuran Uprising (Late M34).

- Warriors of Aggannor, Renegade Marine Chapter, noted specifically to include large numbers of former Night Lord and Word Bearer Marines.


Unlike, to name the example again, Zhufor and his skulltakers who became World Eaters Legion Marines only in M40, I see none of those guys having much modern equipment.

I see your argument that the odd Landspeeder or Assault Cannon could/should have made its way into the Eye of Terror by now. But there is no reason to believe this equipment is more likely to be found among, say, Silver Guards than among, say, Night Lords. If anything, those with the best access to "modern" 40K equipment should be the Black Legion after the 13th Black Crusade.

Ironwarrior177
12-02-2011, 16:25
They are not. Some examples....

Unlike, to name the example again, Zhufor and his skulltakers who became World Eaters Legion Marines only in M40, I see none of those guys having much modern equipment.

I see your argument that the odd Landspeeder or Assault Cannon could/should have made its way into the Eye of Terror by now. But there is no reason to believe this equipment is more likely to be found among, say, Silver Guards than among, say, Night Lords. If anything, those with the best access to "modern" 40K equipment should be the Black Legion after the 13th Black Crusade.

Firstly they are different, even the codex separated them

CSM are Space Marines that give their lives to chaos while Renegades are Space Marines Corsairs and raiders who become Tyrants with their own space fleets who raid planets for personal wealth.

Yes most of the time they are gifted by the chaos gods not because they worship the gods, but because the gods reward those who please them.

Hell, from what im aware the space marines have a semi-renegade chapter. Legion of the Damned who are named by the Imperium as a "renegade chapter."

Zweischneid
12-02-2011, 16:49
Firstly they are different, even the codex separated them

CSM are Space Marines that give their lives to chaos while Renegades are Space Marines Corsairs and raiders who become Tyrants with their own space fleets who raid planets for personal wealth.

Yes most of the time they are gifted by the chaos gods not because they worship the gods, but because the gods reward those who please them.


Got a source? Page number?

Mannimarco
12-02-2011, 17:08
Zweischneid: For the most part you are correct (Ill never get used to saying that ;)) however:



They are not. Some examples....

- Red Corsairs, Fell to Chaos after the Badab War (M41). Under Huron, the Chaos Dex has confirmed that they include sizable numbers of Word Bearer and Death Guard Legion Marines.

Thats a painting guide to show you a sample army, the same codex also shows the ultra paranoid Iron Warriors who dont really like to work with daemons or even other CSMs are perfectly ok with fighting alongside plague marines, khorne berserkers, rubrics and noise marines. We shouldnt use a painting guide or a sample army pic as proof that this army contains a sizeable number of these troops. Do they have ties to the WB? Yes they do, the WB gave them a ship after all. Do they make pacts and alliances with other CSM forces? The rulebook shows they hired some Night Lords to aid in an attack against some loyalist chapter (Marines Errant?) but theres no way we can say "The red corsairs have large numbers of plague marines and word bearers because this sample army pic shows a unit of plague marines next to Huron"




- The Reborn, Renegade Chapter, noted specifically for using armour and equipment even more antiquated than the Heresy Legions. Origin unknown.



I see antiquated weapons and armour, I dont see even more antiquated than the Legions.





- Warriors of Aggannor, Renegade Marine Chapter, noted specifically to include large numbers of former Night Lord and Word Bearer Marines.



painting guide showing sample army doesnt mean large number of former night lords and word bearers following this Aggannor guy.




Unlike, to name the example again, Zhufor and his skulltakers who became World Eaters Legion Marines only in M40, I see none of those guys having much modern equipment.



Zhufor is a latter day renegade, the Skulltakers did not turn at the same time as him: They are a breakaway faction of the WE Legion who captured and turned him. Your mistake is assuming Zhufor and the Skulltakers turned to WE marines at the same time, they did not.

A large number of what we see as latter day renegades are actually breakaway factions of the Legions much like chapters. There will be the occasional loyalist who joins their ranks.

Zweischneid
12-02-2011, 17:20
I see antiquated weapons and armour, I dont see even more antiquated than the Legions.


Fair enough, my bad.



painting guide showing sample army doesnt mean large number of former night lords and word bearers following this Aggannor guy.


Admittedly did that on the fly with Lexicanum. Says "The Warriors of Aggannor is a Chaos Space Marine warband. It is an amalgamation of marines from many Chapters and Legions, such as the Night Lords and Word Bearers, who have sworn allegiance to the Chaos Lord Aggannor. The Warriors of Aggannor are noted for an attack on Calibos III during the Reign of Blood."

It references the CSM Codex and the Sisters of Battle Codex for the Reign of Blood. Don't have my books with me and will need to double-check.





Zhufor is a latter day renegade, the Skulltakers did not turn at the same time as him: They are a breakaway faction of the WE Legion who captured and turned him. .

I think the Zhufor-story is important because it shows the distinction between "Marine" and "Faction". The Skulltakers (or even the original World Eaters) are an old "Faction", but (to me) it seems silly to assume everyone (or even the majority) who belong to the "Faction" do so since its inception/original corruption. Zhufor's story is indicative of how even a 10.000 year old faction like Khorne Berzerkers renews its ranks in "contemporary" 40K. And, precisely this differentiation between "faction" and "Marine" would also settle many of the disputes on why there are no seperate statlines for Legion Marines and other Chaos Space Marines: i.e. even in a list emulating an old "Faction" like Death Guard, World Eaters or Iron Warriors, the majority of rank-and-file Chaos Space Marines/Cult Marines will not be 10.000-years old, though of course senior characters, Daemon Princes and the like may well be.

Inversely, even a recently "fallen" Loyalist Chapter may find itself under the Leadership of some wily 10.000-year old Chaos Lord, Daemon-prince or the like, their inner circle included.

And finally even recently fallen, younger Marines may be far more powerful than older Heresy-Marines (or, to mirror that, Calgar is far more "powerful" stat-wise than the far older, more experienced Cassius). I.e. "age" and "experience" in 40K do not correlate with superiour stat-lines.

Ironwarrior177
12-02-2011, 19:37
Got a source? Page number?

page 17 of the new codex has a separate entry entitled chaos renegades and renegade chapters and describes what a chaos renegade is entirely.

It specifically says that their space marines who turned from the imperium for personal conquest and that eventually they will turn to the chaos gods to grant them more power.

and if you meant the source for legion of the damned then its as listed

White Dwarf US/UK 99, Index Astartes: Legion of the Damned by Rick Priestley
To Cleanse The Stars by Andy Chambers and Matt Keefe.
Index Astartes I – The Cursed Founding.
Chapter Approved 2003
Games Workshop Online
White Dwarf US 223
White Dwarf 195, Legion of the Damned: Veteran Sergeant Centurius, by Ian Pickstock
Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition), p.95

susu.exp
13-02-2011, 05:02
I think 2nd Eds Post Heresy Equipment rule should make a come back. It has the disadvantage of being multi-book - so that may be one reason not to include it in it´s old form. But the equipment pieces of loyalists should be available at a steep points increase. Termies may take assault cannons at - say - 90 points, Storm shields - 50. Land speeders at a base cost of 150 points, weapon layouts accordingly (H.Flamers and Bolters low price, AC, TML and MM at high costs). There´s already a lot of overlap, so this´d be 5 or 6 entries at most (Attack bikes, Speeders, Ironclads, Whirlwinds, Razorbacks, what am I missing?).

I would like to see a Codex with both mono and mixed god list options. Tseentch probably needs two cult options - Thousand Sons are rubric, but there are probably very devoted covens of Tseentch Worshipping Marines. The rubric option could be extended to some more units. I don´t think it´s neccessary for other the other options. At the point a marine ends up as a cult marine they drop their original function. You can´t play sonic solos when you´re in clumsy Termi armour...

Icons should be changed somewhat. While it makes sense to require the Icon as a visual aid to show opponents which units have what marks, having it as a piece of equipment for a particular member makes no sense. A simple fix would be to state that "whenever the icon bearer would be removed as a casualty remove another model from the unit if possible". At the same time the icom bearer stops counting as a seperate wound group.

The focus of the background should not be the heresy. A short summary is enough here - if you want more there are multiple sources. I would like to see some background on how more recent groups turn from the imperium and on how the legions replenish their ranks. The gods should be a major focus though.

Finally: Make the Mark of Tseentch something more exciting than an invulnerable safe. An idea I though about is allowing units with the MoT entering play from reserve to choose the mode of entry when they become available. I.e. you can pick whether they outflank, deep strike or enter on your table edge. Add a dice roll, which on a 1 or 2 lets your opponent decide instead. For HQ models with the MoT allow the Chaos player to change the mode of entry for a single opponents unit per game on a roll of 5+, alternatively two units that can only enter trough deep strike and arrive in the same turn swap places on that 5+ On a roll of 1 treat the character as if it was entering via deep strike and had rolled a 3 on the mishap table. It´d make Tseench more fickle and actually a changer of the ways.

Nurgle needs little changes, though the spread of FNP means that PMs might need some small boost, possibly T5 rather than T4(5), allowing them to retain FNP against S8 weapons.

Khorne doesn´t need that many changes either. The bonus attack is rather powerful as it is.

Slaanesh might need some changes. While +1I is nice, it´s an option you don´t need to spread around your army that much - it only benefits some units.

Some additional options would certainly help, mainly in the mobility department. Chaos-specific STC variations would also be nice. Psychic powers could be more diverse and of course Lash be gone.

A return to 3.5 wouldn´t be good IMHO - little background, cluttered rules layout and list building that was in some ways hillariously open to abuse and in others wierdly restricted (the book of Nurgle mandated no Heavy wepons on marines with the MoN. This was justified through Mortarions preference for the basic infantryman [because all followers of Nurgle were around at the heresy...] and written right next to an illustration of a Pleague Marine firing a heavy Bolter...). Stuff like the free Champ for holy numbers should not make it to a Codex because it´s highly silly (either the Champ is overcosted otherwise, or the holy numbered unit is undercosted). The idea that anything mentioned in the fluff must have a rule was a bad one (it didn´t merely pleague the 3.5 dex, giving purity seals and iron halos wargear status was the same bad idea for the loyalists).

Souleater
13-02-2011, 10:07
I understood Chaos Marines being limited in wargear when they could take monstrous creatures, powerful Daemons, better psykers, etc but currently loyalist marines eclipse them in this regard.

Instead of having older gear why not explore the idea of them having invented new gear while within the Eye of Terror?

The Obdurate Bureaucrat
13-02-2011, 12:42
I think 2nd Eds Post Heresy Equipment rule should make a come back. It has the disadvantage of being multi-book - so that may be one reason not to include it in it´s old form.

Well, multi-book isn't necessarily anathema anymore. The option for Harlequins exists in both the CE and DE books now.

And after all, what is most of that 'post-Heresy equipment' other than statlines? Apart from the Land Speeder, everything else is just weaponry of some kind, mounted on units that aren't fundamentally different.

Instead of charging huge amounts of points for it (thus ensuring that it may well simply become dead space in the book) post-Heresy equipment might come with reliability issues, to represent the fact that demanding maintenance regimes aren't always observed. So, multimeltas and assault cannons used by CSMs might be subject to the 'Gets Hot!' rule, Storm Shields may only provide a 4++ save, Land Speeders might first need to roll over X on a D6 to turbo-boost, that kind of thing.

AlphariusOmegon20
13-02-2011, 15:36
They are not. Some examples....

- The Purge, Renegade Marine Chapter, noted to fight at least since M37/38 (3000 years before S. of Vraks), but are rumored to be former Death Guard Marines.

The key word there is "rumored". It's just as possible they have no former association with the Death Guard. Until further information presents itself, that confirms or denies that, one can not say either way.


- Apostles of MinthRas, Renegade Marine Chapter, first raided from the Eye of Terror in M33.

The first Renegades, possibly. However, if they are the first, then where did they come from? They most certainly are not associated with the former legions.


- Red Corsairs, Fell to Chaos after the Badab War (M41). Under Huron, the Chaos Dex has confirmed that they include sizable numbers of Word Bearer and Death Guard Legion Marines.

The Corsairs have far more former Loyalists than they do former Legionnaires. That is canon and has been for a very long time now. Remember the red X's?


I see your argument that the odd Landspeeder or Assault Cannon could/should have made its way into the Eye of Terror by now. But there is no reason to believe this equipment is more likely to be found among, say, Silver Guards than among, say, Night Lords. If anything, those with the best access to "modern" 40K equipment should be the Black Legion after the 13th Black Crusade.


Wrong Legion.


If any Legion would be likely have modern equipment, it would not be Abby and his bunch, it would the offspring of Alpharius, due to raiding armory stockpiles on a regular basis to replace any losses.

Abby has access to Xana II, a daemon forge world. Alpha Legion does not, because they do not live in the EoT. AL would raid Imperial Forge Worlds, Weapons Shipment Transports, Arbites Precinct Houses, so on, so forth.... to get the weapons they need.

They would steal vehicles from battle fields, like the Razorback and Rhinos. Through raiding forge worlds and stockpiles, they would most likely also have Chimeras and the like also.

That old list of using loyalist weapons at an additional cost was written almost as much for AL as it was for any "renegades".

AlphariusOmegon20
13-02-2011, 15:49
Personally I think that the equipment issue (archaic weaponry in Legions only) doesn't really count for Iron Warriors, since I believe in their Index Astartes or their mention in the 3.5 Codex states that their take care of their weapons and equipment, hell they even recover Imperial wrecks and use them in their armies.

This +1000.

This is the exact reason why I do not understand why Chaos does not have razorbacks in our book. We even have fluff to support having them.

Between IW salvaging them, and AL stealing them, we should HAVE them.

Zweischneid
13-02-2011, 15:53
The key word there is "rumored". It's just as possible they have no former association with the Death Guard. Until further information presents itself, that confirms or denies that, one can not say either way.


Fair enough. But "no one can not say either way" includes claims that Renegades are not as old as any Legion Marine.




The first Renegades, possibly. However, if they are the first, then where did they come from? They most certainly are not associated with the former legions.


Certainly not the first, see for example "the Sanctified".




The Corsairs have far more former Loyalists than they do former Legionnaires. That is canon and has been for a very long time now. Remember the red X's?


Noone denies that. But for a Renegade Chapter barely thousand years old, not to mention the "poster-child" Renegade Chapter, they DO include a sizable number of Legionnaires. So older Renegade Chapters will do likewise, as will (by default) all DIY-Renegade Chapters 40K players come up with in the image of the "default/poster-child" renegade chapter that are the Corsairs.

AlphariusOmegon20
13-02-2011, 16:06
Fair enough. But "no one can not say either way" includes claims that Renegades are not as old as any Legion Marine.

No. We do not have enough information to suggest they are that old either. We simply do not have enough information.





Certainly not the first, see for example "the Sanctified".

Not neccessarily. We do not know when this split between the Word Bearers and The Sanctified happened. It could have happened shortly Pre-Vraks, just as well as it could have happened pre-M33. Again, there is not enough information of the issue.





Noone denies that. But for a Renegade Chapter barely thousand years old, not to mention the "poster-child" Renegade Chapter, they DO include a sizable number of Legionnaires. So older Renegade Chapters will do likewise, as will (by default) all DIY-Renegade Chapters 40K players come up with in the image of the "default/poster-child" renegade chapter that are the Corsairs.

Define "sizable". " Sizable is subjective.

5 would be "sizable" if you have 20 men, however, 5 is a drop in the bucket if you have 200.

Which is roughly the current estimated strength of the Corsairs.

The exact number of former Legionnaires in the Red Corsairs is unknown. Thus we can not say it is "sizable" until more proven, exacting numbers present themselves.

susu.exp
13-02-2011, 18:47
Well, multi-book isn't necessarily anathema anymore. The option for Harlequins exists in both the CE and DE books now.

That´s not what I meant. I was thinking about refering to other books. 2nd Ed. Chaos had a rule allowing them to use any equipment from Codex Space Marines at +50% cost. 3rd Ed. had these things as well, LatD refers to C:IG and C:CSM for instance, the marine chapter books refered to the Marine Codex, Orks could use Vehicles from the IG and SM codex as looted, Lootas could take the options of Devastators. This is gone these days and Harlequins have their own unit entry in C:DE. And of course Rhinos are found in all the Marine books and the Inquisition ones.


And after all, what is most of that 'post-Heresy equipment' other than statlines? Apart from the Land Speeder, everything else is just weaponry of some kind, mounted on units that aren't fundamentally different.

Well, some of it has special rules. The old one was more widely applicable - not only did you get access to weapons, but to all other types of upgrade as well. Jump Packs from the C:SM could be taken, as could Chaplain specific gear. It´s quite a few weapon profiles and special rules.


Instead of charging huge amounts of points for it (thus ensuring that it may well simply become dead space in the book) post-Heresy equipment might come with reliability issues, to represent the fact that demanding maintenance regimes aren't always observed. So, multimeltas and assault cannons used by CSMs might be subject to the 'Gets Hot!' rule, Storm Shields may only provide a 4++ save, Land Speeders might first need to roll over X on a D6 to turbo-boost, that kind of thing.

I´m not sure I like this. It´d produce a lot of additional special rules. The point surcharge was an easy way to allow people to include this equipment, but not to make it standard fare. Gets hot isn´t such a big disadvantage - hey I have to take a 2+ save every couple of turns, doesn´t make it significantly worse on Chaos termies and on Vehicles Gets hot has no effect. A Chaos Dread getting fire Frenzy with AC would be rather powerful and suffer no disadvantages from GH. A high points cost would restrict the use to people who want to include a cool conversion, or have a fluff reason. Let me master craft my Slaanesh Lords Power Sword, for he did it himself and his aim for perfection was what made him stumble. Let me have that Landspeeder of Brother Ammemnoael, the unforgiven who was convinced by Balthozael of Caliban that the fallen were on the right side. With the rules you give for them at the cost of the loyalist Codex, Landspeeders would be no brainers in the current Codex. The access of Chaos to modern toys should be strongly restricted, so that they are genuinely different from SM. But if one absolutely wants the occassional piece of modern equipment it should be possible. Not effective but possible.

Lord Asgul
13-02-2011, 21:04
This +1000.

This is the exact reason why I do not understand why Chaos does not have razorbacks in our book. We even have fluff to support having them.

Between IW salvaging them, and AL stealing them, we should HAVE them.

Exactly my point. Not all of the Legions would stick to using archaic weapons. The Iron Warriors fluff says that they use mass artillery (currently there is only the defiler and the vindicator; and neither are really long range artillery) and they can rebuild imperial wrecks, like basilisks and the like. Therefore we should have access to these. Also weaponry-wise, again the Iron Warriors probably would have multi-meltas, plasma cannons and assault cannons since all of those are very effective at breaching and clearing ramparts and it doesn't take a genius superhuman to think that those weapons aren't that far derived from other weapons that they already maintain and have in their armouries.
I mean if they do raids on imperial worlds, forgeworlds and space marine fortress-monastries, they don't just say "we'll dump our troops here in this big opening". From a tactical point of view, you would set target priorities such as armouries, barracks, manufactoriums, factories, civilian housing, etc. If say, you were the Warsmith of a large group of Iron Warrior Legionaries and you are getting a little bit low on vital supplies and you were quite a distance from the Eye of Terror. What is your best bet? Attack an Imperial World. Of course, you may have some allies; e.g Captain Alpharius of the Amoeba Cell of the Alpha Legion, The Dark Apostle Elyjah of the Word Bearers, Lord Phelgm-gut Sewer-Breath of the Death Guard. You get them to bring their allies to this isolated planet of the Imperium. You discuss tactics (never bring any of the World Eaters to a discussion of strategy, you know what their tactic is...), you discuss target priorities, the priority is the Manufactorium and the Armouries. The Alpha Legion would probably be the advance force, sowing confusion and sabotaging enemy defences, distracting the PDF away from the Armouries and the Manufactorium in the most mind-raping way possible. Then you, Elyjah and Phelgm-Gut invade, you get the elite forces to deep strike (teleport or dreadclaw) near the objectives. You then get the Death Guard to hold back the enemy forces and form a defensive perimeter around the areas that you have taken whilst you help by erecting a formidable defensive curtain along said perimeter; whilst the Word Bearers start enslaving and sacrificing the local populace for the aid of more daemonic allies. After the defences have been erected, you can then start shipping as many supplies as you can to your ships in orbit whilst the PDF is trying to react. At this point the Alpha Legion comes into it's own, they can keep the enemy reacting to them and stop any decent strike getting through. If you can keep them back longer enough, you could enslave enough workers to get the manufactorium working and building something useful (like more ammunition). Then you leave before Imperial Reinforcement can arrive, the Word Bearers and Death Guard would probably say behind and with the help of their Daemonic Allies, do some killing for the Ruinous Powers. Whilst the Alpha Legion and the Iron Warriors have got what they came for. They might stick around and erect some pretty hardcore defences but I'm guessing the Alpha Legion would leave for their own schemes.

AlphariusOmegon20
14-02-2011, 05:05
The Alpha Legion would probably be the advance force, sowing confusion and sabotaging enemy defences, distracting the PDF away from the Armouries and the Manufactorium in the most mind-raping way possible.

Whilst the Alpha Legion and the Iron Warriors have got what they came for.

but I'm guessing the Alpha Legion would leave for their own schemes.

You, sir, get a cookie. ;)

Hellebore
14-02-2011, 06:20
I posted an idea for using loyalist equipment in the rules design forum a month ago:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288185

I would probably have to change it slightly for wargear that isn't a weapon - maybe a storm shield rolling a 1 for its save causes a wound on the model holding it (so gets hot! for a piece of wargear rather than a weapon).

My rationale is in that thread.

Hellebore

susu.exp
14-02-2011, 07:00
Well, see above. I don´t think gets hot solves the issues (in particular for storm shields which would mostly be used on single wound models: If you failed your save the additional wound won´t hurt...), mainly because the rule doesn´t apply to vehicles and an AC on a Chaos dread could be rather sick, as could be the Rifleman configuration. If we want a simple way to use them, +50% points still seems good. It´s not what GW would do under the current design paradigm where refering to other books isn´t an option. But that´s a good house rule.

HK-47
14-02-2011, 07:21
Why are we having this conversation again? Anyway I think I'll just re-post my response to one of Zweischneid posts in another thread.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291338

Actually for the legions only the Horus Heresy is talked about in detail. The "Long War" section immediately sates that the Legions have broken into war bands and them talks about Renegades and the Constantius Iconoclasm. After that only small engagements or inter fighting between war bands are talked about. The Black Crusades only get two paragraphs at the end of the section. Only the Black Legion is talked about in detail, we only get the paint schemes for the other legions/war bands, in the space marine codex a good six pages is dedicated to describe the various codex chapters, see the "Codex Chapters" section on page 24-29, where many chapters have their paint scheme and a little info about them given. I feel the chaos legions/war bands should be given the same treatment.

I also feel that Chaos in 40k should be become more like it is in Fantasy, in Fantasy Chaos isn't just Empire with spikes, it's it own unique faction. Chaos in 40k has been become Imperial with spikes it needs to become its own thing. The less it's like a Space Marine codex the better, but at the same time it has to have units and rules that is common with them, since the faction evolved out of the Horus Heresy. I try to think of it as this, one side is the Space Marine codex and the other is the Daemon Codex. The Chaos Marine codex as to stay in the middle if it's too close to one side it becomes just Space Marines with spikes, if it becomes too close to the other to be called "Chaos Marines".

Also, sorry I keep saying also, I feel the dichotomy between Legions and War Bands is a false one. You can have the two exist in the Fluff with no problem at all. You think there should be more non legion special characters in the codex? That’s fine! I put those in my wish list because those where the first to pop into my head. Who says they cannot coexist, Gav Thorpe? Like he cares! The fact of the matter is that if the mortal armies of chaos want to pose a true threat to the Imperium they need to be organized, that’s what the Legions are. At the same time you can have guys that just want to travel the galaxy and smash stuff, raid planets for loot, or just hang out with like minded people and go carry out some lovecraftian agenda that has nothing to do with anything with Abaddon, or anyone else, that’s what war bands are. Think of it has the relationship between the British Union of Fascists, and the Taisei Yokusankai; both where fascist groups that spread, or wanted to spread, Fascists ideals in their countries, but they never meet each other or took orders from a larger group.

Lord Asgul
14-02-2011, 16:34
You, sir, get a cookie. ;)

YAY! Cookies!... But is this cookie a part of an Alpha Legion plot to destroy my bowels...

Excessus
14-02-2011, 19:06
YAY! Cookies!... But is this cookie a part of an Alpha Legion plot to destroy my bowels...

ofc it isn't... *whistles*

AlphariusOmegon20
15-02-2011, 04:43
YAY! Cookies!... But is this cookie a part of an Alpha Legion plot to destroy my bowels...


ofc it isn't... *whistles*

Of course not... We sent those to the Ultrasmurfs last week....Marneus might be able to falcon punch an Avatar, but he's defenseless against an Ex Lax filled Chocolate Chip cookie.... :evilgrin:

Lord Asgul
16-02-2011, 02:39
Of course not... We sent those to the Ultrasmurfs last week....Marneus might be able to falcon punch an Avatar, but he's defenseless against an Ex Lax filled Chocolate Chip cookie.... :evilgrin:

*forms finger pyramid of evil contemplation* goooooooood :evilgrin: