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Ivellis
12-02-2011, 08:40
I hear this a lot around these forums and others in reply to people taking the game to seriously, and it's starting to bug me, especially when some people use it when a player has a valid complaint. A lot of players may overreact to new rules and new models or what have you, but people have to realize we all at least put a lot of money into this hobby, some of us also put a lot of time and thought into it. Sometimes blood and tears. (Knives and glue are dangerous friends)

It's not just grown men playing with toy soldiers. If it was we'd be going to the dollar store picking up a bag of plastic army men and then making pew pew noises at each other.

If people are allowed to care about books, movies, sports and video games we should be allowed to care about our hobby.

Anyone agree with me, or am I crazy?

metro_gnome
12-02-2011, 08:50
I say pew pew when I play...
if you cannot accept that you are a grown man playing with toy soldiers...
then you are probably not a grown man...

Rolf
12-02-2011, 09:00
Sort of. It's a very silly hobby, but it's a lot of fun as well. Bsaically we are grown men playing with toys with complex rules to disquise it.

On the other hand I agree you. The rule changes to fantasy have stoped me playing that game. Although in the main I like them, because they have all but make my woodelves unplayable, and I don't want to invest alot of money in a new army. So I'm now learning to play 40K properly.

Chapters Unwritten
12-02-2011, 09:05
I agree with Ivellis. I despise the term, in fact. It is as if, because we are adults and our game involves pieces instead of, perhaps, a pigskin oblong ball and pads, we are somehow immature for taking it at all seriously. I have often run into this problem with video games, as well.

How is us playing with figures any different from other grown men being paid millions to play with a bat and ball?

This game obviously is not meant for children, despite much chagrin to the contrary. It requires a rather serious volume of reading for a young child, not to mention a proportionally herculean volume of work, even for the most rudimentary armies. Who, if not strapping young guys in their 20s with some spare time, is supposed to be comfortable playing this game?

What scares me is when I hear other players speaking so nonchalantly in this fashion about themselves. If it is such a shameful game/hobby, why even play it with the rest of us cellar-dwelling momma's boys?

I've never seen a community so hell-bent on making itself look like losers as the 40k group is. It seems folks constantly try to acknowledge the "Fact" that this is a horrible nerdy thing to do. I know I once read here as a lurker that "We are all haunted by the scene in the 40 year old virgin" but, seriously people. Is anyone doing anything to counteract that image?

Also, for what it's worth, I don't see this as BEING our actual image. I have had my minis seen by everyone from old timers to young wannabe rap stars (my brother and his group are a bit confused....). Every person has reacted with nothing but amazement, both at the pieces and at my own alleged talent for building and painting them. I've even had one rap/gangster type ask me to build him one "just cause it's so ill, like." And I'm not even a good painter!

By the same token as the bat and ball analogy above, the painting is the same thing. You tell someone you paint pictures, you're an artist. You tell someone you paint models, and you're...well...the 40 year old virgin.

I think the dismissive attitude toward the game by its players is a shame. I sometimes feel like I am the only person on earth who plays this game who isn't completely ashamed of it. It is also extremely, extremely insulting to anyone who has put in as much work as I have toward having a good army and being a good hobbyist and player.

And for what it's worth, most of the time, I don't usually see the grown men spouting this. It's the youngish ones -- still desperate to walk the line between being considered the coolest dude all their friends know, and being who he'd rather be.

Chaplain of Chaos
12-02-2011, 09:06
I think all people should be aware of how absurd their daily hobbies or forms of entertainment are.

TheRatsInTheWalls
12-02-2011, 09:07
I could not agree more with your sentiment. The "toy soldier" put down has been quite possible the most irritating thing I have encountered since I have joined the online warhammer community. Yes I grant that we are all playing with little plastic soldiers, but they are little plastic soldiers that require a serious commitment of time and effort. The game does not actually suit your average juvenile, despite whatever the GW marketing team believes. I am sick of people using the fact that we play with toy soldiers to insult someone who takes it seriously. Think about it, how many people on this forum can actually be said to never take the hobby seriously? Doesn't the fact that there is a forum at all prove our point?

Wyrmwood
12-02-2011, 09:07
I think all people should be aware of how absurd their daily hobbies or forms of entertainment are.

In a sense, yes. See what I did there?

Hypaspist
12-02-2011, 09:10
I hear this a lot around these forums and others in reply to people taking the game to seriously, and it's starting to bug me, especially when some people use it when a player has a valid complaint. A lot of players may overreact to new rules and new models or what have you, but people have to realize we all at least put a lot of money into this hobby, some of us also put a lot of time and thought into it. Sometimes blood and tears. (Knives and glue are dangerous friends)

Knives are one of the least of your concerns... see here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4505237&postcount=13) (about 1/3 down) ;)


It's not just grown men playing with toy soldiers. If it was we'd be going to the dollar store picking up a bag of plastic army men and then making pew pew noises at each other.

If people are allowed to care about books, movies, sports and video games we should be allowed to care about our hobby.

Anyone agree with me, or am I crazy?

To be honest Ivellis, I only see people wheel out the, "Guys... seriously.,.. it's Toy SOldiers?" Comment when someone is people particularly over the top with their passionate comments. I don't think it comes from a place which is, "you have no right to get so passionate", I think it's more indicative that (for me at least) this is a hobby we should enjoy, and whilst we spend a lot of time, and money on it, and whilst we should rightly have opinions and critique things...

.. perhaps sometimes people go a touch overboard?

By all means care about it, but to become a frothing nutcase over the fact that the latest model is not quite as pretty as you would like is perhaps overkill :)

P.S. I do not play pew pew when I play... I leave that to my wife when she mocks my hobby ;) )

EDIT :
Lots of stuff about serious Hobby. For me Chapters, it's actually about not being ashamed of my hobby. Quite the opposite of wanting to hide it. I have often found, if you try to explain the hobby to someone, (especially when sans models) their eyes glaze over, and they simply don't get it/think you may be a bit odd. When using the simple to say term toy soldiers I find it gets it across nicely, and often they enquire what I actually mean, which then gives me permission to be more descriptive and keep their attention..

of course, Your Mileage May Vary :)

Chaplain of Chaos
12-02-2011, 09:33
Your Mileage May Vary

The only true thing here is that TvTropes will ruin your life.

Chapters Unwritten
12-02-2011, 09:36
Hehe. I prefer to describe it as "a cross between legos and a big boardgame."

Still, I would never refer to it in a derogatory term, even if someone is frothing angry about some bit of it. The term has a negative connotation to it, you know? In situations like that, it's got this sort of edge to it, like "Hey guy who actually CARES about this stuff -- get a clue, man."

I don't like the term for that very reason. I feel it really is derogatory to the player who does put in a lot of time and effort. Also, not for nothing, but this term acts as if, in the history of all the world, no one ever got upset about a game, and that such behavior is both uncommon and unreasonable...especially over such a silly game, which the term implies we should care so little about it, that we should feel nothing for it.

It is because of this game that I met my girlfriend, a person who helped pull me out of a dangerous downward spiral in my life. Inspired, I ended up starting a very successful local game group which is now very well known and prospering. The very army I play with was mostly bought with the money saved for an engagement ring for the girl who broke my heart prior to this. So I take it quite seriously!

Also -- and yes, this is a nitpick and a half -- we're not actually playing with the toys, per se`. They are the pieces by which we play the game. The rulebook and codexes, to me, are the game -- not the "toys" we use for visual aid. If we used paper markers or vassal or pennies, would it make it different?

Chaplain of Chaos
12-02-2011, 09:41
To me it would.

But technically no. So long as you are following the rules.

eldargal
12-02-2011, 09:47
Well, I think its possible to 'take the hobby seriously' and also maintain a sense of perspective. As much as I think GW neglect xenos, have numerous problems with the way Eldar technology is depicted in the codex, etc. etc. I find it very hard to get too worked up about any of it, simply because its a game I play to have fun. That blasted sense of perspective stops me getting too emotionally agitated over any of it.
I've actually seen adult men (if you consider a 24 year old male adult, its a point open to debate.:shifty:) come to blows over rules disagreements and 'what is in character for an army'. That is absurd, it is also an extreme case, I know.
At its most basic level it is toy soldiers, and there is nothing wrong with that.

nedius
12-02-2011, 09:50
Next time I see a world chess champion, I tell him he's playing with little wooden 'horsees'.

Next time I'm chatting to a passionate sports fan, I'll point out that it's not only a game, but a game that they are not, in fact, playing.

I was once with a friend viewing a rather famous Van Gogh to which their comment was "it's just a picture of flowers in a pot". People will always have differing ideas of what a thing/hobby/activity is.

However, I do agree that we're not just playing with soldiers. We are being designers, craftsmen, artists, literary critics, writers, tacticians, socialites, statisticians, logisticians...

This hobby is hardly 'play'. The play bit is the very tip of a large hobby iceberg. Compare the number of hours required to read the rules, learn the rules, read & understand the codex, write the army list, re-write the army list, earn the money to buy the army, buy the army, build it, convert it, paint it (learn how to do all that stuff in the first place), store it, transport it, socialise enough to find people wanting to play a game, discuss a game afterwards, evaluate your performance, re-write army list again, earn more money to buy new bits for adapted army list, buy them, build & convert them, paint them, store them... with the number of hours it takes to play a game. Yes, the ratio decreases over time, but that initial out lay is immense.

For just a 'time is money' analysis, consider how much it would cost to pay someone, at minimum wage, to do all those hours of work for you... Then remember a lot of it is not menial labour, but skilled labour, and adjust cost accordingly.

Then, consdier again how much of this hobby is play, and how much of it is actually 'work'. Enjoyable work, I'll grant, but work none the less.

So, to sum up, I'm not a huge fan of the 'playing with toys' point of view either! :)

Tavendale
12-02-2011, 10:01
I say pew pew when I play...
if you cannot accept that you are a grown man playing with toy soldiers...
then you are probably not a grown man...

Thread should have ended here. 'Nuff said really.

If we must continue, then yes, I have no doubt that some people take the game very seriously. Other people have jobs.

ehlijen
12-02-2011, 10:05
But we are playing with toy soldiers. Just because we're brand snobby about where we get our toy soldiers doesn't mean they're not toy soldiers. A car enthusiast is a car enthusiast whether he tinkers with a VW beetle or a Ferrari. The brand or price class doesn't change the core concept of what we do. We collect small replicas of soldiers made from plastic or metal for the purpose of having fun by playing with them. That means they're plastic toy soldiers (or metal).

Just because children most commonly play with toys doesn't mean adults can't.

Sure, there's more to it than that. There's assembling (though just because we use glue it's more mature than LEGO? Nope. This is more a compliment to LEGO though.), painting as the crafting part and the strategising during game. But at the end, we use small figurines to achieve personal amusement. A toy definition if I've ever heard one.

yabbadabba
12-02-2011, 10:06
Of course we are playing with toy soldiers - and its not just grown men as well.
Of course we should take our hobby seriously, especially after what we have to invest in it! What I have to question is why you feel offended by this? I am proud of my hobby and I am fully aware of how other people might see it - and I don't care. I work at a primary school and the kids there know I play with toy soldiers and believe me a 10 year old with a belief they have a hold over you can be persistent, even vicious in a clumsy way. There is nothing wrong with saying or being told you play with toy soldiers, I feel kind of sorry for those who feel thisis some sort of insult, or those who think they can use it as some sort of insult.

As for getting a cheap bag of soldiers to play with - well thats how some of us started out when we were kids. I'd also recommend this approach when playing HG Wells' Little Wars. Firing pieces of dowelling at your £40+ dragon just isn't funny.

So from a personal view no, I don't agree with you.

bossfearless
12-02-2011, 10:17
"We are all haunted by the scene in the 40 year old virgin" but, seriously people. Is anyone doing anything to counteract that image?


Well I for one do my best to have as much anonymous sex in as many hot tubs as I can. I'm 28, and my "numbers" are at 52 and counting...

But what we do is so undeniably niche that I've found it more or less impossible to explain it to "mainstream" people, without resorting to crude analogies like, "a really complicated version of chess." If someone sees my figures, they usually see the artistry inherent in the hobby and want to paw through my whole collection. However if I describe what it is I play, well, not so much. Most people just don't get our hobby, and we have to come to terms with that by admitting to ourselves how infantile we look to outsiders.

But you know what we can do? Take showers. Dress ourselves properly. Hit the gym a couple times a week. I firmly believe that gamers ought to take the matter of breaking the stereotype into their own hands.

terradax
12-02-2011, 10:19
In almost every club i've been in, my opponents make car sounds when moving their tanks. Of course they are toy soldiers, but my Nikon D60 is also my toy, as is my computer, my PS2 and my bed (wich is actually a playground ;) ).

My point is that the only thing separating men from kids is the price of their toys.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
12-02-2011, 10:20
We are playing with toy soldiers. And I'm proud of the fact. I acknowledge that this hobby takes a lot of time and commitment and I'm also proud of this, but I have no qualms that I participate in this hobby simply for my enjoyment, not for any greater, more serious cause. I'm quite happy in myself that I play with toy soldiers, and I've never actually met someone who thought it was childish or silly, not that I would really be bothered if they did. I have met far more people who are annoying because they take the hobby very seriously, and seem to have missed the point about it being simply fun (Not directed at anyone here :)).

The Obdurate Bureaucrat
12-02-2011, 10:23
Wargames are niche hobby, and probably always will be, for the simple reason of accessibility. Anyone ca turn on a console and start playing video games - it doesn't exactly require much of an investment of time and effort. Similarly, because everything is up there on the screen with bright colours, impressive sound and pre-arranged plotlines laid out in nice, easily digestible chunks, it doesn't require that much of a cerebral investment either.

All wargames, especially 'fantasy' wargames are different. They are by necessity powered by imagination, and a sense of being able to appreciate the unreal. Not everyone is able to do this so easily, and even if they are, they're often not willing. Imagination and creativity have always been powerful tools, but they're often feared as well; and what people fear they either avoid, ridicule or at worst seek to destroy.

Yes, the minis we invest so much time and effort in are indeed toys, since the main definition of the word is "an item to play with", and of course we 'play' games with them. However, by that definition, a football, a tennis raquet, a cricket bat etc are also toys, albeit of a different kind - they are implements employed in the playing of a game. Stop being pretentious and calling them 'sporting goods'...they're playthings ;).

Wargaming can give you, or help you attain, just as many key skills as anything else. Even on the physical side, in subtle ways. We celebrate people for their ability to kick a leather sphere into a net, calling them skilled and disciplined. And yet, does it not require just as much skill, discipline and self-control (albeit in different ways, and to a different end) to accurately paint a pair of eyes on a small pewter statuette 30mm high? ;)

Mainstream 'culture' in the 'West' (and increasingly elsewhere) can be a horrible place to be if you don't fit. The world seems obsessed with physical attractiveness, which is why athletes or aspiring athletes can get away with being more self-absorbed and immature than the worst uber-geek, despite the fact that often the only thing that is different about them is the nature of their obsession. Imagination and creative thinking are themselves often seen as childish - and yet look at what our culture is turning into as a result. Grown men playing with toy soldiers shouldn't even register as a problem, compared with the effects 'acceptable' obsessions are having on society.

Sorry, that really turned into a rant, and probably didn't make much sense either :p

tuebor
12-02-2011, 10:26
I think it's less a matter of people taking the hobby too seriously than of people taking themselves too seriously.


What scares me is when I hear other players speaking so nonchalantly in this fashion about themselves. If it is such a shameful game/hobby, why even play it with the rest of us cellar-dwelling momma's boys?

You're fundamentally misunderstanding what's going on when people speak that way. When I tell people I paint and play games with plastic space dolls I'm not ashamed of it. It's what I do and if people don't like it I don't really care. I don't try to dress it up with flowery language in order to make myself feel better about it because I'm comfortable enough with who I am that I don't need to. It's not a matter of being ashamed about the hobby, it's a matter of being confident enough in oneself.

dantheogre
12-02-2011, 10:27
I'm happy to say I play with toy soldiers, and I love it!

Mirbeau
12-02-2011, 10:36
It's just little toy soldiers, which I have always thought are pretty cool.

Azzy
12-02-2011, 11:13
I think it's less a matter of people taking the hobby too seriously than of people taking themselves too seriously.

You're fundamentally misunderstanding what's going on when people speak that way. When I tell people I paint and play games with plastic space dolls I'm not ashamed of it. It's what I do and if people don't like it I don't really care. I don't try to dress it up with flowery language in order to make myself feel better about it because I'm comfortable enough with who I am that I don't need to. It's not a matter of being ashamed about the hobby, it's a matter of being confident enough in oneself.

Your post is made of win!

LonelyPath
12-02-2011, 11:42
Adding sound effects to your games is fun, it also helps get into the spirit of your army. I often see Ork players screaming "WAAAGH!" or saying "dakka dakka dakka" when shooting. Likewise I see Guard players simulating ordnance and artillery fire and the same with officers giving out orders over the vox. Heck, I start all my games with my K army with "I am the hammer" followed by the rest of the prayer ;)

I am not fond of the term "toy soldiers" when it comes to wargaming since multi-part models do not truly fit the descriptive, however they really fit other descriptives either and accept it.

Oh, and yes, I do play with LEGO (LEGO is also the plural) when I get the opportunity, heheh...

Born Again
12-02-2011, 12:24
I take my hobby seriously. Why shouldn't I? The key is to not take it too seriously, that's when the problems arise.

There's nothing wrong with it, after all, people taking kicking a pigskin around a field seriously. My mother takes digging holes, putting plants in them and watering them seriously. People take catching fish seriously. What's the difference?

Ville
12-02-2011, 15:31
There is nothing funny about the amount of money, time and effort invested in my hobby. I think most people that think otherwise will be hard pressed to display something about their lives that requires as much dedication and mental strength.

Well okay, raising children may be a bit harder, but still...:)

Depulsor
12-02-2011, 16:58
Playing with toy soldiers is niche hobby. And beeing the minority is very often a bad thing in society. It doesnt matter, what exactly you do, If you dont blend in you call for trouble. ;)
(The only way to escape that, is to go after the "higher goals" of that society. Then you can be in the minority without touble.)

Thalenchar
12-02-2011, 16:59
These are so toy soldiers. I love the hobby, I love playing the game, I am not ashamed of playing the game, and I'll tell anyone who asks this is one of my biggest hobbies, but these are so toy soldiers...

Sekhmet
12-02-2011, 17:19
I take a break from dealing with real soldiers all day by playing with toy soldiers on weekends. I know a lot of people that do the same thing.

Tamwulf
12-02-2011, 17:21
I hear this a lot around these forums and others in reply to people taking the game to seriously, and it's starting to bug me, especially when some people use it when a player has a valid complaint. A lot of players may overreact to new rules and new models or what have you, but people have to realize we all at least put a lot of money into this hobby, some of us also put a lot of time and thought into it. Sometimes blood and tears. (Knives and glue are dangerous friends)

It's not just grown men playing with toy soldiers. If it was we'd be going to the dollar store picking up a bag of plastic army men and then making pew pew noises at each other.

If people are allowed to care about books, movies, sports and video games we should be allowed to care about our hobby.

Anyone agree with me, or am I crazy?

No one is saying you can't care about them. Yes, we put a lot of time, effort, and $$ into this hobby. That's the key word though- it's a HOBBY. No matter how much time you spend on it, someone probably spends more. No matter how much effort you put into it, someone else has put in more. All that money you've sunk into it? Yup, someone else has probably sunk in more. Your fanatical dedication to your army and all things related to it? Someone else is devoted to them more.

It can't be your ONLY hobby. You have to strive for balance in all things. Otherwise, it becomes an obsession. Obsession leads to the Dark Side.

Those very feelings you have towards your little toy soldiers make you Nerd Rage when you blow a dice roll, or some curious onlooker picks up one of your mini's and drops it on the floor. You write scathing Troll Rage forum posts because the newest Toy Soldier Army is somehow better then yours. You go to the game store or buddies' house not to drink a beer, scarf down some pizza and have a good time, but to do battle, and you gird yourself not with a sword and armor, but the latest FAQ and borken models. Instead of a friendly game of fellowship, laughter, and fun to blow steam off and forget about life for a bit, you see yourself on the battlefield, the general of your armies. When you look across the table, you see your enemy, and they must DIE! All civility, all "fun" is forgotten in a haze of making them capitulate and bow down to your 1337 skillz on the battlefield.

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women".

Even Conan, many years later and a king by his own hand, sat on a thrown, troubled and still searching for the true meaning of life. And it wasn't from crushing his enemies.

Unless you are in the Gaming Industry, unless you make your livelihood from playing this game, then that's all it is. A table top game of little Toy Soldiers, and it should be treated as such. Respect your opponent, admire the amount of time, money, and effort he has put into his army as well as yours. Never, ever forget that.

The second you forget that this is a game of little toy soldiers, that there are far, far greater things going on in the world then you throwing some dice around on a table and moving models, you need to step away and get some perspective. Games are played to relieve stress, to have some fun, and help make real life more bearable.

If your life sucks so much that you escape so far into a game of Toy Soldiers that you forget about everything else but crushing your enemies... then I advise you to put the game aside and focus all that time, money and effort into making your life a little better.

It's a game of [B]Toy Soldiers[B]. Never forget that.

Sandlemad
12-02-2011, 17:45
Someone practically giving themselves an ulcer over how Avatars are treated in the background or the appearance of a new gunship is no less silly than someone doing so over Torres' transfer or a type of car being discontinued.:)

Bestaltan
12-02-2011, 18:19
I think all people should be aware of how absurd their daily hobbies or forms of entertainment are.

Heh. Every time my parents tisk at me for going to tournaments, I politely ask them how many hours they spent in front of the tv the day before.

Usually hushes them.

People never seem to realize they do it, but they without thinking place hobbies into "normal" and "not normal" categories. Sports, tv, certain computer games (people that would call me a geek for playing MMO's will spend hours at work playing solitaire :rolleyes:), racing.......These are "normal". Because our hobby is something that is rather unique, it quickly gets placed into "not normal". Which is funny, because I've seen the eyes of many a grown man light up with childhood glee when they see two nicely painted armies on a well-terrained table. But when I ask them if they want to learn more, I can see them back away from such a "not normal" hobby.

*Edit* But yea, I paint and play with toy soldiers.

Havock
12-02-2011, 18:25
I think we need a clear definition of a 'grown man'.

Is he married, does he have children, does he have a full time job? Is he beyond the age of X? Does he have a beard?

Thrax
12-02-2011, 18:31
Was it Twain who said adults are nothing more than obsolete children? ;)

yabbadabba
12-02-2011, 18:38
I think we need a clear definition of a 'grown man'.
Is he married, does he have children, does he have a full time job? Is he beyond the age of X? Does he have a beard?Does it matter?

TheWarmaster
12-02-2011, 18:45
I think it says in the law that an adult is over 18 years old and has a beard.

Havock
12-02-2011, 18:54
Does it matter?

Well, for the OP it does?

Inquisitor_Tolheim
12-02-2011, 19:16
Your post is made of win!

Indeed it is.

If you are offended that someone thinks you play with "toy soldiers", then maybe you should take a long hard look at why it matters to you what other people think. Who cares what other people think of the hobby?

I play with toy soldiers. I also play video games. And barbie dolls with my daughter, for that matter. Life is too short to waste it trying to make other people take you seriously.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
12-02-2011, 20:09
Life is too short to waste it trying to make other people take you seriously.

Here here. Life's for living.

LoreDraconis
12-02-2011, 20:20
honestly, if you feel like you have to defend your hobby then you're taking their bait. Let it roll off your back...it's a cheap shot because they dont have any better ammunition, and the reason people down others with crap like this is because they want to knock you down to their level of insecurity.

in summary, just ignore it. It's the best retaliation.

Chem-Dog
12-02-2011, 20:27
If it was we'd be going to the dollar store picking up a bag of plastic army men and then making pew pew noises at each other.

:shifty:

*shifts uncomfortably*

:shifty:

Isambard
12-02-2011, 21:24
I love my toy soldiers I am proud of my hobby and I am never ashamed of it; I will talk with my colleagues freely about my hobby (though I won't sperg out like I do with my fellow hobbyists about the more esoteric points of the game) but I have nothing to hide.

And they ARE toy soldiers and they are awesome.

As for the grown up bit, well, I am 31, married, I have a kid (18 day old son at the time of writing),a full time respectable job (maths/physics teacher at a rather good private school), a mortgage and I love BBC radio 4, so my grown up credentials are pretty good as well.

Anyone who tries to hide from the fact that they are to soldiers is ashamed of their hobby in some sad way :-(

Woodsman
12-02-2011, 21:58
I find this to generally be more of a problem for people who only have the one hobby. I tend to mock all my hobbies and yet know people that take all of them very seriously. I remember telling someone that I was going to spend a Saturday murdering pheasants and he got very excited about the noble pursuit of game and blah blah. Call a spade a spade and be done with it.

I love playing and watching football (soccer) but can't help but laugh at the fat fanatics who always know better what should have been done than the professionals they support

By extension why get offended by what someone anonymously posts on an online forum?

rodmillard
12-02-2011, 22:34
I think we need a clear definition of a 'grown man'.

Is he married, does he have children, does he have a full time job? Is he beyond the age of X? Does he have a beard?

I am married, have two children (and another one on the way), have a fairly senior position working for local government (newly appointed 3IC of the City Archaeology Unit), am over 30 years old, and have a goatee.

I stopped growing height-wise more than ten years ago (it's all been width since then...) so I suppose I meet the definition of a "Grown Man." My wife will be the first to tell you that doesn't make me a "Grown Up!"

I happily describe the hobby to outsiders as "playing with toy soldiers". I find it defuses the innevitable micky-taking if I get in there first ;) I also LARP, which is best described as "a sort of cross-country pantomime," and spent much of the winter working on a suit of chainmail ("knitting for Real Men")

The problem with any hobby is that the people who can't stand to have it belittled are the ones that most need reminding that it is something they do FOR FUN. If you start to forget that, then its time to find another outlet before the men in white coats take you away...

EDIT: @ Eldargal: "if you consider a 24 year old male adult, its a point open to debate." No debate at all. "Adult Male" is a contradiction in terms :p

Tower_Of_The_Stars
13-02-2011, 00:03
I think people take the mick out of this hobby for 2 main reasons:

Firstly, it does involve you playing with (passionately at times) toy soldiers.

Secondly, rightly or wrongly (rightly ;)) there is a stereotype associated with this hobby and if you play the hobby you are associated with this stereotypes. ,

Personally, I hold nothing against people who have a laugh at me for collecting, which includes my friends, my girl friend and my family and most of the time I'll laugh along with them. I mean come on! You've got to see the funny side to it surely?!

I've just realised though I've gone slightly off topic. Relating back to the OP I do agree with him to a certain extent. I also find it annoying, or can see why it could be annoying when you have been having a debate with ANOTHER HOBBYIST and they say after some discussion "but it's just a game of toy soldiers". Because whilst it might be to someone that doesn't play, it's not to you and it's not to them. I feel by saying something like this they are trying to take a "moral high ground" they have no right to take.

Brother Fenix
13-02-2011, 00:19
Interesting story. My wife calls Warhammer, my "nerd" game.

However, when people come over, she is always quick to point out to other people my painted miniatures and often raves about the difficulty to paint something so small, to such a high quality and seems to be very proud of my skill.

And I am not even that good of a painter.

cool-kid-on-the-block
13-02-2011, 00:31
[QUOTE=terradax;5308296]In almost every club i've been in, my opponents make car sounds when moving their tanks.QUOTE]

brum brum, piew piew, panic test, your turn.:D

DeviantApostle
13-02-2011, 00:54
There's a big difference as well depending on who makes the comment. As an adult who plays with toy soldiers, I often find myself beset by others who share the hobby but take it entirely too seriously and throw tantrums when they don't get their way, much like small children. At which point I might make such a comment to remind the other party that we're not curing cancer or forging world peace.

On the other hand, if a patronizing non-gamer said the same thing, I'd flay their skin off. Two different situations, equally valid responses.

Havock
13-02-2011, 00:55
Interesting story. My wife calls Warhammer, my "nerd" game.

I call it -my- nerd game/thing, if you mock it yourself, you take away all the mocking others can give you and show at the same time that you just do it because you like it, srs business goes elsewhere.

Private_SeeD
13-02-2011, 00:59
I'm on the fence, where I don't take it seriously. I did this when I was young and then was introduced to booze and women, so this got left behind. I started buying stuff becasue of my long hours alone with nothing to do. In my local GW it'll get attacked/abused roughly 3 times a week from idiots, but that could just be the city I live in. But if I'm being honest I usually go for the social aspect, when my girlfriend is away at Uni I'll spend my day's off at GW painting stuff and helping out. Even if that ranges from putting out new stock, chasing away retarded chav's to making gaming boards. Just wish our toy soldiers weren't so expensive

spiderman5z
13-02-2011, 02:08
you can't take the game too seriously I mean we are playing with toy soldiers after all.

Born Again
13-02-2011, 05:57
These are so toy soldiers. I love the hobby, I love playing the game, I am not ashamed of playing the game, and I'll tell anyone who asks this is one of my biggest hobbies, but these are so toy soldiers...

Hmm, I just checked a box to be sure, and they've changed it. It now says "Citadel Miniatures are fine scale models designed for gamers and collectors". Back when I first started playing, though, I'm pretty sure this was preceded with "This is not a toy" ;)


Was it Twain who said adults are nothing more than obsolete children? ;)

I like this!


I think it says in the law that an adult is over 18 years old and has a beard.

I am several years over 18, but refuse to attain the other qualifications to be an adult!

Wishing
13-02-2011, 08:22
This is a very enjoyable thread, great points all round. :)

yabbadabba
13-02-2011, 08:54
In my local GW it'll get attacked/abused roughly 3 times a week from idiots, but that could just be the city I live in.Land of the Sheep? Gettin abused 3 times a week?


Has to be Newport, Wales? And it isn't a city, its a warzone :D

Rolf
13-02-2011, 09:42
As for the grown up bit, well, I am 31, married, I have a kid (18 day old son at the time of writing),a full time respectable job (maths/physics teacher at a rather good private school), a mortgage and I love BBC radio 4, so my grown up credentials are pretty good as well

Your not only grown up, your too grown up and horrendously middle class. :D

I donít think even the most blind of us would admit it isnít geeky. (Although we don't take ourselves as seriously as those that re-enact real battles) but in the end Ivellis has a point, we put lots of money and passion in to these games, we should get up set when someone in Nottingham changes the rules around you.

Spacker
13-02-2011, 10:21
I'm almost 40, married, 2 children (11 and 6), an honours degree in Mechanical Engineering, a full time job (Senior IT Analyst/Web Developer for a major book wholesaler/retailer in the UK, with 16 years in the job so far), a mortgage, a goatee, and long hair. I can code in VB, ASP, PHP, C++, Fortran, T-SQL, Javascript, and occassionally tinker with C# and Java. I have more PCs sat in my attic unused and as spare parts than my employer used to have in the office.

I have all the Star Wars movies on VHS (both originals and special editions of the original trilogy, and the NTSC limited boxed set of Ep I including frames from a film reel), DVD (original trilogy first boxed set, and the more recent re-releases with both original and special editions, as well as the prequels, all in region 2 as well as AoTC in region 1 as over here we had the headbutt cut out), as well as a sizeable collection of Star Wars stuff in the attic (the LEGO is gradually being sold off though, I just don't have the space for it any more).

I've been "into" 40k since 1988, and have almost all the 3rd, 4th, and 5th ed codexes as well as the RT rules, Slaves to Darkness + Lost and the Damned, all the Chapter Approved books, Index Astartes, all the FW IA books up to volume 8 (will get 9+10 shortly), and a bookcase of Black Library novels, along with Space Hulk (the new version, I sold the original + expansions a few years ago), and Aeronautic Imperialis. I've got around 50,000pts total of 40k armies including 4 titans and 10 super heavies, and a large amount of FW models and conversion kits. I run both my own 40k related forum/gallery site with 2 meetings at Warhammer World each year, as well as the AB40k site, and I'm also a part owner of a GW independent retailer.

Am I geek, or a nerd? I guess both, although at work I tend to refer to myself as a geek :)

Ianos
13-02-2011, 12:50
Grown men with toy soldiers eh? How about grown men running like crazy around a ball? or grown men playing with completely abstract soldier pieces on black and white squares?

I for one consider wargamers closer to "advanced chess" players, those of course who cannot cope call them nerds. Which i guess is true to the extent that we use much more of our brains for a lot less the financial reward.

What if in the future though, top players earned huge money and status?

Razhem
13-02-2011, 13:13
Grown men with toy soldiers eh? How about grown men running like crazy around a ball? or grown men playing with completely abstract soldier pieces on black and white squares?

I for one consider wargamers closer to "advanced chess" players, those of course who cannot cope call them nerds. Which i guess is true to the extent that we use much more of our brains for a lot less the financial reward.

What if in the future though, top players earned huge money and status?

So you respond to being belittled by belittling others, classy.

Yes, we play with toy soldiers, yes they play with soccer balls, yes he plays with big cars. It's the thing, we are all playing, no sense in being mean to the others just because we are sore about the rep we get unless the other guy is strictly being a dick, because you certainly aren't inherently better than the guy playing a sport for playing warhammer or viceversa.

Also, calling warhammer advanced chess is quite a stretch, the reason chess is what it is is because it is close to the most balanced strategy game you can ever achieve thanks to it's simplicity and how both players use the same set of tools. Warhammer and all wargames are more like complex (and complex does not mean better, nor more tactically engaging, it just means it has more rules to keep in mind) boardgames that require collecting pieces.

Cosmic_Girl
13-02-2011, 13:20
I was considered "cool" in high school and at university, my ex-boyfriend who got me into the hobby was considered "cool", in that he was an athlete, charming, handsome, was in relatively successful local covers band, drove a vintage restored car, worked the graveyard projectionist shift at an indi movie theatre etc... but the most amazing thing about him was that he did volunteer work at a local children's hospital teaching children with developmental problems how to play and model 40k miniatures as part of their arts program.

I hold a BSc in Molecular Genetics, currently completing a BSc in Dental Health science, part time modelling, work as a croupier, have heaps of friends and an active social life, yet the "coolest" thing I do, in my opinion is volunteering at the same children's hospital teaching kids how alternate ways of expressing themselves using 40k as a medium. I don't conisder my hobby at all "uncool" or for the socially retarded.

C-girl.

shin'keiro
13-02-2011, 13:22
Anyone agree with me, or am I crazy?

We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. ;)

I'm 30 going on 13! We are grown men and women playing with toy soldiers... but theres nothing wrong with that!

DarkMark
13-02-2011, 13:41
Men don't grow up, their toys just become more expensive.

Hrw-Amen
13-02-2011, 13:42
Well it is playing with toy soldiers as my wife often points out. Actually I don't really even play I just collect and make/paint/store. But although I accept it is a bit nerd like to a point, it is no worse (At least in my view.) than many of my friends who go on about football and other sports that they themselves are passionate about, moreover do not actually get involved in beyond watching on television.

That is really strange to me, they are not actually even taking part, they are getting worked up over something somebody else is doing for them and all they have to do is sit around drinking beer.

So whilst I accept it is a nerdy/geeky hobby I still do not like it when those people point this out to me as what they are doing is at least just as bad.

People who do actually take part in things may have some point to make, but having said that although W40K (GW games in general.) is my main hobby it is by no means my only hobby. I also swim several times a week, write, and I enjoy getting out taking photographs (Although I'm not that good at it.) and I was an avid cyclist until my hip gave out a few years back. Maybe some people think all of those things are a bit nerdy, I don't know?

As for being a grown man, well I am in my mid 40's so I guess if anything I will probably start shrinking soon.

Ianos
13-02-2011, 13:51
So you respond to being belittled by belittling others, classy.

I am not belittling anyone, i also play a lot of sports and love competition. I just find it unfair that wargamers are judged as of lower competence just because they are different.

As for the inherent value of a wargame i do believe that they can require much higher thought process and the more intelligent you are the better you become at them. As for 40k i just love this game and consider it to be one of if not the best.

Cry of the Wind
13-02-2011, 14:20
Sure I play with little toy soldiers, so? Just because at the end of the day when you take a step back and look at it and see bits of plastic shaped like little soldiers doesn't mean you can't take it as seriously as any other hobby. Just like any hobby some people can take it too far and unfortunately those in our hobby who do so have created a stereotype with the negative nerd connotations (I'm talking about the sweaty no shower or social life outside the game nerd here).

In the context of this forum the use of the ďItís only toy soldiersĒ seems to come up most often in rules debates in my experience here. I feel in that case it is someone misunderstanding the point of the rules forum and believing that the discussions there would be had around a gaming table too. Most people debating rules here are not looking for how you would play the game in real life but what the actual letter of the law in the rulebook is. When you forget that itís easy to see how someone might think the other person is taking the game way too seriously (for example the old 3rd Ed Marine Codex Terminators not wearing Terminator armour, clearly everyone played that they do but by the rules they did not).

Another place this comes up is in strange army proposals. Sure I donít like the idea of female Marines because the fluff over the years has been consistent that they do not. However, if you want to make your army of female Marines that is fine by me, your money and all. If someone else on the forum tells that person it is not ok and is insistent about it there is a good chance someone will pull the ďtoy soldiersĒ card as a defence of the female Marine player.

In real life sure Iíll say I play with toy soldiers. Iíve worked in some rough towns and had equally rough co-workers and roommates and have never had anyone bash the hobby when they find me sitting at a painting table (or at least not anyone worth the air the breath). I wonít go around talking about it to random people but then I donít talk about technical aspects of my work with random people either unless they ask. I was a quite kid in school because I thought I was too nerdy to be one of the cool kids (and not just because of Warhammer though I must say Iím a useless nerd who loves internet culture but can struggle to find the on switch for some electronics...). Since growing up Iíve found that people in the adult world are a lot more accepting of hobbies and other things so I am a much happier and more rounded person. Iíve even met some people who play that you would never expect. Heck if you met me and my morning reporter at work youíd probably be surprised to hear us talking about 40k while flying over the city doing traffic and breaking news.

@ Cosmic_Girl, thatís awesome what you do with those kids. I met an elementary teacher in a small oil town who did a similar thing with his students. They may not have developmental problems but exposing any kid to a new way of expression and learning is something worthwhile. That you can combine a hobby with volunteering is a great example to everyone.

XmarvX
13-02-2011, 14:47
I expect that the people who can only see 'toy soldiers' when they look at any miniatures (rather than just GW ones) are the very same people who loose their childhood imagination as they grow up.
Many if not all of the hobby'ists that love the warhammer universe, continuously excercise their imaginations, reading the fluff, dreming up poses, conversions, paint schemes, army lists, battle plans/strategyies etc, everything to do with this hobby relies heftily on us having a little something called imagination.
Im not about to condem those who lost the use of their childlike imaginations but lets face it many people do, and its these people who look at us and just plain dont get it....
I dont mind persay, because i look at professional football and think to myself 'seriously.... who the ***** cares if that ball goes in that net? or if that seemedly lazy guy who stands still while the others chase a ball will actually stop it :S and continue to wonder why they deserve the whopping paychecks they get for it... but i dont make dun of the people who do enjoy the game just because i personally cannot see the enjoyment. Because quite clearly there is some, all those people cant be idiots can they? (hehe welll maybe they can- but seriously they probably arent)

Iv been away from the hobby for a few years but will soon be getting back into it, I've been called all the geeky names you cna think of for playing with my toy soldiers but it never got to me, when someone insists that im a geeky nerd playing with toy soldiers... I put it to them that they have zero imagination,or appriciation of the true artistic flare of the model designers and the painting involved. and ask if they ever had an idea that the TV didnt show them? :P
I find that most people think of us as pushing little toy soldiers around a table frantically rolling hundreds of dice and neglect the other half (more like 90% for me) of the hobby which is the books, assembling and painting of mini's and making things look just plain cool :)
I have won people over by explaining that there is infact some skills in painting the eyes of a man that stands 3cm tall!!

Try not to be bothered by it, you may find most human beings make fun of that which they dont understand, if you have a laugh about it with them and casualy show them that its not all stats and toy soldiers they might not see it as such a kids thing.

Dont get offended, I'm positive that a professional football player wouldnt be that offended if you heckeld him and told him that he's a dumb jock and only plays sports cus he sucks at academics... chances are he doesnt suck at academics completely and will pity you for having such a backwards opinion :P

I have a similar pity for those who have lost the use of imagination, but do make an effort to instill some into people now and then :)

Cosmic_Girl
13-02-2011, 15:23
@ Cosmic_Girl, that’s awesome what you do with those kids. I met an elementary teacher in a small oil town who did a similar thing with his students. They may not have developmental problems but exposing any kid to a new way of expression and learning is something worthwhile. That you can combine a hobby with volunteering is a great example to everyone.

Thanks! :) They don't all have developmental problems, a great many have behavioural problems and can be a huge handful, but it gives me a lot of satisfaction. There's one girl who has "self image problems" and a f*#& you attitude to the whole world (basically Gen Y written all over her) who I came a hair's bredth from punching out last month because she's smart enough to push the buttons of everyone around her. But don't let that dissuade you if you're thinking about volunteering your time!

Just an aside, if anyone out there has miniatures or any hobby supplies they're trying to get rid of, donating them to pediatric units of your local hospitals is a really great idea. Also if the hospital in question is a registered charity, you can get tax benefits as well as doing something great for others!

C-girl.

PS: you go to any gaming store and look around, you have to admit the average gamer does kind of fit the description of "man-child". It doesn't do a lot for the image of the rest of us.

IcedCrow
13-02-2011, 17:36
I went to a tournament yesterday. Not to play in, but to watch.

The stereotype exists for a reason. But that's ok. Athletic gym-rats also have a stereotype for a reason.

If it's your crowd it's your crowd. Don't participate in a hobby because you want to be cool or are afraid others will make fun of you. Participate in a hobby because you enjoy the hobby. Eff what other people have to say about what you do for hobbies.

Bestaltan
13-02-2011, 17:40
Heh. This conversation reminds me that some of my students have asked if I would start up and sponsor a chess/gaming club at the high school where I teach. They have NO idea of what they are gonna get into.....:D

Private_SeeD
13-02-2011, 18:32
Land of the Sheep? Gettin abused 3 times a week?


Has to be Newport, Wales? And it isn't a city, its a warzone :D

Lol, so your from Newport then?
One thing that goes against our hobby is the lack of females, Well bar C-girl but it seems to be true aroundthe stores around me, my girl friend has a talent for painting models but She would never go into GW by herself and when she comes in with me the ppl there will leer/stare at her or look amazed that a girl entered GW, also ice seen GW scramble when a female enters there store it's cringe worthy

IJW
13-02-2011, 19:34
Hmm, I just checked a box to be sure, and they've changed it. It now says "Citadel Miniatures are fine scale models designed for gamers and collectors". Back when I first started playing, though, I'm pretty sure this was preceded with "This is not a toy" ;)
Citadel/GW packaging did indeed say 'This is not a toy' many many years ago, but that's because at the time they contained lead...

The current wording goes back to at least 1997, I just checked a couple of oldish blisterpacks.

Gobsmakked
14-02-2011, 03:11
We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. ;)
Shin’keiro is exactly right! I'm 47 and I really don't care what anyone else thinks about whatever it is that I am doing. I have an active imagination still and can laugh at myself quite easily, so I think that I am doing better than a lot of other people nowadays. I'm also a professional librarian and a senior manager, so again not really the stereotypical gamer image.

I got into this hobby through my son , who is now 13. I used to build models when I was his age and now I enjoy the degree of satisfaction I get from building them and the peace of mind I get from painting them. It's a hell of a lot better than watching reality TV and no worse in any respect than any other hobby.

I also game with a local gaming society where they play any and every type of tabletop game each month. One member, a woman, teaches game design at a local college and her students will bring new games for us to test. Hardly geeky.

I won't play in a GW store and neither will my son, he only plays at our gaming society. Not only does he benefit from the intellectual challenge of the game itself, he also enjoys hanging out with adults (I'm probably close to the average age of the membership) and learning from them. Thus his maturity level benefits as well, and he's not at home staring at the computer all the time.

I also have to say that Cosmic Girl's volunteer program is without a doubt the coolest thing I have heard related to this hobby, but I'm also not surprised by it. My wife and I have always played games as a family with our kids on a regular basis and recognise how this helps them in different ways, as it did us once upon a time. That combined with what I observe about my son playing 40K, I can readily see it helping kids in less fortunate circumstances.

Born Again
14-02-2011, 03:19
Citadel/GW packaging did indeed say 'This is not a toy' many many years ago, but that's because at the time they contained lead...

The current wording goes back to at least 1997, I just checked a couple of oldish blisterpacks.

97? it was that long ago? Now I feel old... :(

Anarch_Sek
14-02-2011, 04:39
you should have heard what happen before the metrotown GW closed 3 17ish year olds came in drunk yelled at everyone to grow up and then they knocked over all the models on the display table everyone was like:wtf:

Private_SeeD
14-02-2011, 04:55
you should have heard what happen before the metrotown GW closed 3 17ish year olds came in drunk yelled at everyone to grow up and then they knocked over all the models on the display table everyone was like:wtf:

That's nothing, everytime some kids that are dressed in a certain way enter my LGW they have to be watched because they will most likely try and steal something, break the intro models or intimidate the young 'uns

Azzy
14-02-2011, 06:58
you should have heard what happen before the metrotown GW closed 3 17ish year olds came in drunk yelled at everyone to grow up and then they knocked over all the models on the display table everyone was like:wtf:

And I bet they failed to see the irony of their actions. Dumbasses.

----

@C-Girl: You and your ex rock. Thank you for trying to bring some hope and joy to the lives of others.

Born Again
14-02-2011, 10:10
And I bet they failed to see the irony of their actions. Dumbasses.


I assume, that you are implying the drunks are immature, but I can also read your sentence to say that by just standing and staring, the guys in the store are reinforcing their image. In response to that, I know of a similar incident happening, except a guy in the store (fairly big, strong guy) grabbed the hecklers and almost literally carried and threw them out of the store. They never proved a problem again.

chromedog
14-02-2011, 10:15
They are NOT "toy soldiers" (unless I am speaking to an Airport security type who wants to know what is in the case. To them, "toy soldiers" is a good enough description.).

They are my warbarbies, mandollies or wardollies when I am speaking with my peers (gamer and non-gamer alike).

I'm 42 going on 17.
When pressed on my age, my usual response is "Old enough to know better - young enough not to care.".

Nomrana Est
14-02-2011, 11:40
I play with toy soldier and I am damn proud of it! I may not take some of the aspects of the hobby as seriously as others, such as the gaming side of things, but I do take the modelling and painting aspects quite seriously. I will happily spend hours working on one tiny detail on my models, but I won't cry if it explodes spectacularly in the first turn of a game. It's meant to be fun, and playing with a bunch of similarly minded people reinforces that.

I'm of the opinion that growing old is madatory, whereas growing up is optional. :D

Godzooky
14-02-2011, 12:23
At the end of the day we are all going to die in fairly short order. Might as well spend that time doing stuff you enjoy, no matter how gimpy it may seem to some others.

orkmiester
14-02-2011, 12:45
I don't see what the problem is, you can do what you like and tell anyone to 'bugger off' if they are having a go. I have had many great times at my gaming club (warlords of walsall if anyone is interested) the GW shops are ok to start with but i wouldn't play there unless i was going with my mates for the reason that some of the people are idiots and don't know what they are talking about (most of the time). These days there are loads of how can i say it... young teenagers (there very pc) there, ok they are the future but if i ever got dragged in to play I would just accept the challenge without any bragging that i have got this and that- it does my head in.

i also think maturity helps us in some respects, there are no petty arguments about rules (ahem...) and you can have decent civil conversations with people, i may have been brought up around adults most of my life but they are the best.

Lol for the girl who helps out, good on you doing something for the communtiy, on that note i seem to remember at a GW store not to far from me on the odd ocassion two girls worked there it was a bit odd at first but hey i have no problems.

Godzooky
14-02-2011, 12:52
Lol for the girl who helps out, good on you doing something for the communtiy, on that note i seem to remember at a GW store not to far from me on the odd ocassion two girls worked there it was a bit odd at first but hey i have no problems.

Yeah, they'll be getting the vote next. Good on 'em. :D

Lord of Divine Slaughter
14-02-2011, 13:37
PS: you go to any gaming store and look around, you have to admit the average gamer does kind of fit the description of "man-child". It doesn't do a lot for the image of the rest of us.

I personally give all the credit to online shops for helping me getting back into the game. Walking into a gaming store will quickly assure you that the games are for loud kids, young men in their early 20ies with a very slacky attitude, and some 40+ers, who sees themselves as men in their early 20ies with a very slacky attitude.

Not really a group you relate to, when you're 30, educated and working a job, family and the rest of it. Luckily there are 'grown-ups' out there with enough disposable income to relive their childhood fantasies - while sipping micro brews, beer nuts and vinegar crisps ;)

Can't say, I have any issues with being grown up and playing with toy soldiers, though I obviously have issues with those who refuse to grow up just to play with toy soldiers - get a bath :)

FabricatorGeneralMike
14-02-2011, 13:51
you should have heard what happen before the metrotown GW closed 3 17ish year olds came in drunk yelled at everyone to grow up and then they knocked over all the models on the display table everyone was like:wtf:

Wow, I wish something like that happened when I worked there...;)

Great thing about the Metrotown GW was the door on the side that lead to the 'back' of the mall and the loading bays, nice and easy to get lost in there... :skull:

Hey, I have fun doing this. I have been doing this since I was 12, im now 33, altho if you ask the Girl Friend she will say I act more like the 3 year old grandson...:rolleyes:

"The only difference between men and boys is the price of our toys."

Easy E
14-02-2011, 14:00
Toy Soldiers! That is absurd! I prefer the term "War Dollies" (Patent Pending).

All people geek out about certain things. Most people just can't figure out what to geek out over, so they let someone else tell them. Sadly, the person that told you what to geek out over was a nerd. Sorry, and better luck next time.

Adra
14-02-2011, 19:50
Toy Soldiers! That is absurd! I prefer the term "War Dollies" (Patent Pending).

My GF calls them "your little men"....

I only have man-love for plastic men thank you very much! ;)


Anyway I'm not sure if I'm reading this thread right. Is it non-table top wargamers calling us names thats upsetting people, or other table top wargamers making fun of themselves thats the upsetting thing?

I make fun of myself a bit, its healthy. I mean you cant be a fanatic about anything and take yourself too seriously. You need to take a step back or you end up one of them guys who gets really angry about your hobby over tiny things.

Forget its 40k, lets say its football. If your a football fanatic you could be mocked and i guess thats not very nice but you also see the funny side. Yeah I am a bit obsessed...lol oh well...its all good fun.

Everyone has a drum to beat and some of us become fanatics. As long as we learn to laugh at ourselves a little and chill out then no amount of mocking can hurt us and the more fun everyone has.

adeptusphotographicus
14-02-2011, 19:58
I agree, these are just toys albeit very cool toys and we all seem to enjoy the whole aspect of them.. collecting, building, painting, creation of theme etc.. and playing against each other. what is not to like?

well like you I find sadly there are a lot of folks in this hobby genre who are for most part lacking in social skills. we all know the types.. unpleasant to be around let alone game against. I suppose it is the nature of things that such dysfunctional people do tend to collect in fringe niche groups like ours.. seems to just be a fact of things..

I find the solution is simple. I avoid these folks.. people who forget this is a fun hobby and while the fun is a good competitive game, really those fights to the death are awesome, the point is to have fun. I like to win sure, but watching my army get destroyed has a certain pang to it sure.. but I think ok this is when the XYZ company got wiped out.. so the next game I think how angry and bitter these men are that their comrades were wiped out.. sort of a narrative element which brings it together.

the point being the game is fun mainly since it looks so cool. seeing models on a table is cool. seeing what my opponent made and fielded is cool .. that is why I like the game not just to win at all costs..
I think some players just want to win period and do not care about the feel of the game or frankly the point. they would be better off with video games or hockey or paintball for that matter. I wonder how many people playing 40K really enjoy it? seems like those who winge all the time rarely do.

Still think the solution is simply chose who your associate with and things turn out great. ignore the posts from the power players and the rules lawyers, ignore the really unpleasant folks and ignore the people who .. well some posts are just stupid.

Azzy
14-02-2011, 20:31
I assume, that you are implying the drunks are immature, but I can also read your sentence to say that by just standing and staring, the guys in the store are reinforcing their image. In response to that, I know of a similar incident happening, except a guy in the store (fairly big, strong guy) grabbed the hecklers and almost literally carried and threw them out of the store. They never proved a problem again.

Yeah, I meant that telling others to grow up while yelling, destroying property and being drunk and disorderly in general is pretty ironic. Spoiled children. Bleh.

I think the appropriate response to that sort of behavior is simply to call the cops and press charges (if they want to play at being grown ups they can face grown up repercussions). Of course, if the dumbasses get violent, it's more than reasonable to defend yourself and others.

gwarsh41
14-02-2011, 20:40
I think all people should be aware of how absurd their daily hobbies or forms of entertainment are.

Yelling at the TV and crying because a sports team did not win a game is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard of.

You can also look at tabletop another way. 40k is a very advanced version of chess. (well, hordes and warmachine is closer as you kill one piece you win)
So in that sense, chess is a very childish game. Sports are usually just people playing catch.

I also happen to collect nerf guns, I have no shame at all in admitting that I am a 24 year old toys are us kid. I will never grow up!

FlashGordon
14-02-2011, 21:09
Hey, at least we are not out on the streets using drugs. ...right?

the_yuk
14-02-2011, 21:13
At least my 40k hobby dosnt get me treated like a criminal. Im also a sporting shooter here in Australia and beleive me its far worse people assuming that your violent, unstable and likly to become a serial killer just because you own a gun. Thank you John howard. Ive done a bit of hunting (for food) but I never knew that paper targets had feelings.

Id much rather be called a nerd or whatever else people get called for playing 40k then be treated like a criminal by the masses and by the government to a lesser extent.

Thalenchar
14-02-2011, 22:08
Hmm, I just checked a box to be sure, and they've changed it. It now says "Citadel Miniatures are fine scale models designed for gamers and collectors". Back when I first started playing, though, I'm pretty sure this was preceded with "This is not a toy" ;)

Lol, I remember that. Good point. Still, health department mandated product description aside... ;)


Citadel/GW packaging did indeed say 'This is not a toy' many many years ago, but that's because at the time they contained lead...

The current wording goes back to at least 1997, I just checked a couple of oldish blisterpacks.


97? it was that long ago? Now I feel old... :(

You and me both!
Man, we've been playing with toy soldiers for a looooong time! ;)

New Cult King
15-02-2011, 03:13
It's about putting it all into perspective.

Nerd rage is real, and living in the internets. People blow things out of all proportion and say and do ridiculous things. Saying "Remember man, it's just toy soldiers" is a way of saying "Remember man, you don't have cancer/live in a warzone/whatever".


I also happen to collect nerf guns, I have no shame at all in admitting that I am a 24 year old toys are us kid. I will never grow up!

So does most of my RPG group :D Many a session has devolved into a duck-and-cover-behind-the-sofa as Nerf darts fly :D I'm oddly proud of the fact :D

Mike3791
15-02-2011, 03:36
Next time I'm chatting to a passionate sports fan, I'll point out that it's not only a game, but a game that they are not, in fact, playing.


I agree with this, in fact I will add that I think it is actually more silly to spend money on tickets to watch a sports game or concert then investing money on an activity/hobby that you can actually participate in and be a part of..

gwarsh41
15-02-2011, 15:25
So does most of my RPG group :D Many a session has devolved into a duck-and-cover-behind-the-sofa as Nerf darts fly :D I'm oddly proud of the fact :D

I am really sad they discontinued the N-strike series. The next wave is fully battery powered and called nerf tag. I have learned that a titan missile to the chest really hurts. That thing has serious destructive power for a nerf gun.

Private_SeeD
15-02-2011, 17:28
Tbh thinking about it, I get more flak of family members when they find out a I'm a fan of Anime/Manga... Saying that last christmas I took my Grandmother to a GW so she could get me some Hellions, unfortunately when paying she kinda exploded only the way OAP's can and I'm now banned from asking anything GW related in the future

MarshalFaust
15-02-2011, 18:16
My name is MarshalFaust and I play with man dollies.

my wife asked me just the other day how do I know when I have enough of "those little army guys?" and I just stared blankly back at her as if I could not comprehend what she had just uttered.

Its just a hobby for fun and i could care less what anyone else thinks about it and i try not to take anything hobby-wise too seriously. dont get me wrong, i spend a lot of my free time thinking about, and working on my various warhammer armies but at the end of the day they are plastic toys and just because i am almost 30 and have a beard doesn't mean i have to enjoy them any less than i would if i were a kid or be ashamed of that.

I still enjoy a pudding cup from time to time and i am not ashamed.

I still enjoy drinking chocolate milk and a cookie now and then and im not ashamed.

I still like to dress up and play soldier on the weekend(civil war re-enactor) and im not ashamed.

I do the things that I like to do.

Excessus
15-02-2011, 18:34
why should I be embarrassed about my hobby? Why should I even care what they think?

They are random bipedal carbon-based lifeforms, like 6 billion others on this planet, why are they arrogant enough to think that their unimportant opinions about what I am doing should matter to me?

(but if they EVER would scrape off some colour or make an arm come off one of my CSM, I'd hurt them...)

Chapters Unwritten
17-02-2011, 00:09
That is a nice idea and all, that you don't have to care what others think.

Someday a woman you really love will leave you over it, and maybe it will matter more. That is what happened to me. Granted, the girl had some issues and somehow thought because I played this game once a week, I somehow loved the game more than her. She left me as I saved up money to buy her an engagement ring and pay for a big proposal scheme; she loved baseball, and it so happens I had a bid in on some Yankees/Red Sox ALCS tickets and planned to do it on the big screen at Fenway Park.

It was this that made me angry about the whole thing. My game is stupid, but her game -- which she watched at every opportunity, much more often then I played 40k -- wasn't. So that is why I am not do dismissive of the attitude. When someone important to your life decides you are some kind of social miscreant because of this game, it can be quite devastating.

I dislike rationalizing it with the "So what? I can do whatever I want!" attitude many in this thread take. I believe the depicting of us as gigantic nerds who are playing with toys is far from the mark. After all, the game we are playing is in a book, and honestly, could be played without a single one of these little toys. And let's face it, it is the TOYS people are hung up on -- telling them I go play a game every week with friends is not so socially horrifying. It's when they see your collection that they are weirded out.

Not caring if people think you are a psychopath or not, doesn't really help the image much. And it's only useful insofar as dealing with distant people. When your friends, family, and loved ones think you are crazy it can cause more problems then just a subtle roll of the eyes at the mention of the game.

MasterDecoy
17-02-2011, 00:27
That is a nice idea and all, that you don't have to care what others think.

Someday a woman you really love will leave you over it, and maybe it will matter more. That is what happened to me. Granted, the girl had some issues and somehow thought because I played this game once a week, I somehow loved the game more than her. She left me as I saved up money to buy her an engagement ring and pay for a big proposal scheme; she loved baseball, and it so happens I had a bid in on some Yankees/Red Sox ALCS tickets and planned to do it on the big screen at Fenway Park.

It was this that made me angry about the whole thing. My game is stupid, but her game -- which she watched at every opportunity, much more often then I played 40k -- wasn't. So that is why I am not do dismissive of the attitude. When someone important to your life decides you are some kind of social miscreant because of this game, it can be quite devastating.

I dislike rationalizing it with the "So what? I can do whatever I want!" attitude many in this thread take. I believe the depicting of us as gigantic nerds who are playing with toys is far from the mark. After all, the game we are playing is in a book, and honestly, could be played without a single one of these little toys. And let's face it, it is the TOYS people are hung up on -- telling them I go play a game every week with friends is not so socially horrifying. It's when they see your collection that they are weirded out.

Not caring if people think you are a psychopath or not, doesn't really help the image much. And it's only useful insofar as dealing with distant people. When your friends, family, and loved ones think you are crazy it can cause more problems then just a subtle roll of the eyes at the mention of the game.

So do you really want to be with someone who looks down on you for your pass time activitys?

Doesnt sound like she was much of a catch to me..... Just saying.

My fiancee doesnt really want to hear me talk about it to her cause she really inst that intrested about 7->8ft tall supersoldiers ripping other peoples arms out, She doesnt give a damn that I choose to build, paint and play with little army guys.

I have made it clear with all my girlfriends that this is what I do to pass idle time, and they can like it or hate it but it wont stop me from doing it.

New Cult King
17-02-2011, 00:31
Yeah in Chapter's case, I'm pretty sure it was the girl who was crazy, not him.

I've been playing/collecting/painting for 15 years. I've been with my fiancťe for the last 9 of those, and she doesn't have a problem with it. She'd rather me be downstairs painting and playing with my mates than boozing it up at a pub and coming home reeking of alcohol and cheap perfume :p


Why should I even care what they think?

They are random bipedal carbon-based lifeforms, like 6 billion others on this planet, why are they arrogant enough to think that their unimportant opinions about what I am doing should matter to me?

If my sig wasn't already fairly full, I would sig this. Utter gold. Consider it a spiritual sigging :D

Easy E
17-02-2011, 13:14
why should I be embarrassed about my hobby? Why should I even care what they think?

They are random bipedal carbon-based lifeforms, like 6 billion others on this planet, why are they arrogant enough to think that their unimportant opinions about what I am doing should matter to me?

Because human's are social animals. If they weren't we wouldn't have a society.

In the real, competitive world; perceptions matter.... more than most people are comfortable admitting.

carlospictor
17-02-2011, 13:23
They are my warbarbies, mandollies or wardollies when I am speaking with my peers (gamer and non-gamer alike).


LOVE this! :D Please may I use these terms next time I'm chatting with my friends about this hobby?

From my perspective, I still get embarrassed and sometimes have to psyche myself to go into a GW store (though more to endure the hard sell tactics. Every. Time. I. Look. At. A. Box.)

All my friends and family who come round my house love looking at my finished models on the shelves, asking me about them, impressed with the painting etc. Everyone has the things that interest them, absorb their skills and give them fun.

It's all good! :)

Freakiq
17-02-2011, 13:30
My motto is "laugh at yourself lest others do it for you". ;)

I have no delusions about my hobby, my warhams are on the same level as the Turtles and Star Wars toys I had as a kid.
Except maybe a bit more demanding and social.

Godzooky
17-02-2011, 13:31
In the real, competitive world; perceptions matter.... more than most people are comfortable admitting.

In the real, competitive world perceptions matter... alot. They matter more than most people are comfortable admitting.

So good he said it twice. :shifty:






:p

ewar
17-02-2011, 13:50
Thread should have ended here. 'Nuff said really.

If we must continue, then yes, I have no doubt that some people take the game very seriously. Other people have jobs.


Love it. Sigged.

OT: yes it's a very involved hobby - and something I've been doing now for basically as long as I can remember (ages 9 - 30), but really, some people go overboard. Yes it's complicated and artistic, but ultimately we're grown men playing with toy soldiers. Bloody expensive toy soldiers, but toy soldiers none the less.

Easy E
17-02-2011, 17:41
So good he said it twice. :shifty:

:p

Sorry, computer problems.

Fixed!

Inquisitor_Tolheim
17-02-2011, 23:25
Because human's are social animals. If they weren't we wouldn't have a society.

In the real, competitive world; perceptions matter.... more than most people are comfortable admitting.

While this is true, there are enough people on the planet that if you meet up with a group who do not approve of you (or your hobby, or whatever), then really all you need to do is walk a block or two till you meet up with someone who does. It's not that being around people who don't approve of you isn't hurtful, but rather that there are plenty of people out there who will accept you for who you are. If you spend all your time with people who look down their noses at you then you can only blame yourself for being unhappy.

Chapters Unwritten, I honestly think you dodged a bullet with that girl. As a married dude myself I can tell you that you need someone who is willing to embrace you for who you are, as you are. Anything less and you are going to be in a world of misery when the honeymoon is over, so to speak. If she had hangups about you painting plastic soldiers and hanging out with your friends once a week, then your marriage would have been a prison.

[lexus]
17-02-2011, 23:38
Some people love watching other people chase a ball around on a big field. They consider that to be a great way of spending their time. Good for them. I paint plastic miniatures and I make shooting noises when I play with them. Good for me. Screw everyone who says Im an idiot, they probably like watching people chasing balls. Like thats any better.

Excessus
18-02-2011, 00:03
Because human's are social animals. If they weren't we wouldn't have a society.

In the real, competitive world; perceptions matter.... more than most people are comfortable admitting.
yes, humans are social animals, but we can choose what "animals" we socialize with...

I don't know about you, but I sure can handle not being social with every person alive...

Besides, we aren't talking about our glorious opponents, but some random unintelligent kids that goes around behaving like they weren't properly raised...

Dreamseru
18-02-2011, 00:26
well, Im going to just post my thoughts on this without looking at the other posts (except the OP)

how do we define childish?

how are video games, anime, manga, wargaming and RC cars any different to books, movies, cooking, gardening and going out for a drink, which is directly negative to your health?

is it that these things are new?

is it that these things are hard to understand without getting into them?

is it that people eat up the mis en scene about these things? (mis en scene is a theatre technique in which the characters are dressed and wear make up, with different background music depending on what they want the audience to think)

or maybe not mis en scene but stereotypes?

and although it is true that we are grown men playing with toy soldiers(depending on definition of toy) what is wrong with that? it is said in a negative way, but what is it that is bad about it?

why is it that something a child can enjoy is bad for an adult to enjoy?

Ozendorph
18-02-2011, 00:39
Personally I can laugh at myself and my quirky hobbies, and I'll let non-gamers think whatever they'd like.

To me, the "grown men playing with toy soldiers" line is most often just a glib way of saying "lighten up and keep things in perspective, brochacho." That said, it can be rather irritating if it's used in an attempt to diffuse or bypass legitimate, serious rules discussion. Example:

Player 1: "I don't think you can target my unit because they're embarked on a vehicle."

Player 2: "It doesn't say in the power's description that I need LOS so I think I can do it."

Player 3: "Hey man, toy soldiers, so whatever!"

Players 1 & 2: ...:eyebrows:

Azzy
18-02-2011, 07:32
Because human's are social animals. If they weren't we wouldn't have a society.

In the real, competitive world; perceptions matter.... more than most people are comfortable admitting.

Those who deviate from social expectations tend to fall into one of two groups: Outcasts or leaders.

Take musical genres, art or fashion, for instance, a new style appears because someone is unashamed and self-confident enough to break with the established mores do something different.

Do something with enough panache and confidence and people will stop thinking that you're weird and start think that maybe they're weird if they don't follow suit. Moxie: It makes a difference. ;)

And, honestly, if someone is going to judge you poorly because your hobby involves playing war with toy soldiers then they're not exactly the sort that you'd want to associate with. At least with our hobby we have something to show for our money--and that something can be used again and again. Compare that with drinking, smoking or drugs.

Easy E
18-02-2011, 14:07
Those who deviate from social expectations tend to fall into one of two groups: Outcasts or leaders.


Yup... I wonder what the ratio is between the two?

Also, the idea that you can just walk over and always pick your associates is a bit... not realistic. If you could always pick your associates, no one would complain about work. Same goes with any social hobby. Sure, you always have the choice of game/no game; but you can't choose who will be there willing to play.

The idea that there is always someone else to play maybe true... in some areas.

Rogerio
18-02-2011, 17:27
I think its an interesting hobby thats for sure, i used to play the game every week at a club and spent hundreds on models between the ages of about 11-17 and used to be totally into it, i also played football and rugby quite alot and had some varied interests.

When i was 17 i really got into my football and became quite laddish then went to uni to study sports management and football studies when i was 19 for 4 years and did the whole "jock" thing playing sports relentlessly slept around and drank ALOT, but i still read the black library books and stuff and people would sometimes comment on it as it was so out of my character.

Now ive finished uni and im 23 im still obsessed with sports and im a football coach professionally, my mates are not into the hobby at all but i have slowly been drawn back in and have been collecting and painting a guard force recently and really enjoy reading about the hobby and making my own guys to one day POSSIBLY play with it again.

Thats the strength of the hobby, traditionally i am about as far away from a wargamer these days as you can get and i still have been dragged back into it because its so interesting and fun.

Mit Gas
18-02-2011, 18:13
I'm both geekish (knowing way too much about fiction and movies) and nerdish (like enjoying being asocial for many days) and completely normal at times as well. I'm proud to say that I'm into weird stuff and never felt like not talking about it if someone asked me - I don't feel bad for it and also love to joke about it. I generally like to laugh about myself. Only insecure dolts can't (and sadly most people are insecure).

The key is to not talk about it when nobody asks you about it or act like a nerd when you're around people in general. I come off as fairly normal I think. I wear expensive clothes and most people would think of me as the arrogant, aloof posh type (nickname Dorian Gray) when this is the direct opposite of what I really am. I just like to wear nice shirts and wear classic clothes when going out, I'm also not the type for extravagant clothes like artsy-clothes or gangster stuff (I'm boring and that's fine!) and never felt drawn to sub-groups so I wear conservative clothes. I often heard how people at first thought I was like this or that and then changed their opinion. But no matter what you do, people will label you.

I'm just myself and I like being myself for the most part. The most important thing is to stay true to yourself and be a mix out of everything you like and not a stereotype. Now most of my friends don't care that I like videogames or Warhammer and they don't enjoy those hobbies themselves - I'm fine with that as there's so much different stuff to talk about or do in life. And if you can talk about normal stuff with "normal" people who are not into geekish stuff, then they'll accept that you have your geeky/nerdish side, even girls. They might make a joke but ultimately none of my friends thought less of me when they learned that I dig Warhammer. Warhammer (Fb, 40K etc) is a cool hobby and one of my interests. It wouldn't be the first thing I'd talk about with a person I do not know but if asked or it fits, I'll gladly mention it. If you are secure about who you really are, people will love you.

Just look at the old story of girls digging total ******** and ******. Most of them ahve nothing to offer but being happy about themselves, justified or not. People are drawn to you as we're all a bit insecure at times. Know what is good about you an be proud of that and people will accept you if you're a nice bloke, even if you have weird hobbies in their eyes.

So yeah, I'd say not all wargamers are alike. I've seen handsome faces, jocks, cool guys or even just regular joes play almost as often as fat, nerdy, greasy, smelly guys in wargame or roleplaying games. And videogames are totally "normal" these days anyways. They have girlfriends, aren't virgins and can socialize. It's true that many people in this
hobby are weird nerds but just as many are totally normal guys.

Now LARP guys are usually the weirdest and nerdiest though. ;)

Inquisitor_Tolheim
18-02-2011, 19:12
Also, the idea that you can just walk over and always pick your associates is a bit... not realistic. If you could always pick your associates, no one would complain about work. Same goes with any social hobby. Sure, you always have the choice of game/no game; but you can't choose who will be there willing to play.


Well, whoever is playing Warhammer against you probably won't be looking down on you for playing wargames. That's rediculous.

As for work (and other social circles) if you're going around and waving your models in the faces of people who couldn't care less then of course you're going to suffer derision. This is true of ANY hobby. If someone comes up to me at work and starts talking sports statistics I politely hint that I could care less. If they continue then I am more blunt. If wargaming is ALL that defines you and all you could possibly talk about then sure, you might be hurting for someone to talk to at work. But I guarantee that you have common ground in other areas, just talk about those instead.

Chapters Unwritten
18-02-2011, 20:05
To me, the "grown men playing with toy soldiers" line is most often just a glib way of saying "lighten up and keep things in perspective, brochacho." That said, it can be rather irritating if it's used in an attempt to diffuse or bypass legitimate, serious rules discussion. Example:

Player 1: "I don't think you can target my unit because they're embarked on a vehicle."

Player 2: "It doesn't say in the power's description that I need LOS so I think I can do it."

Player 3: "Hey man, toy soldiers, so whatever!" I think this is part of why I am so passionately against this sort of thing. This is how it is used all the time where I am at. As an example, just the other day, a Tyranid player complaining about JotWW got the toy soldiers line.

I have never heard of it in terms of calming someone's inevitable freakout, though maybe that is just because we have never really had an inevitable freakout at my group.

Of course, if that was the context, I'd still much rather hear "Hey man, easy, it's just a game" then the toy soldiers line. It has this facetious, mocking context, as if to say, "Well we're all sad little man-children with no lives here, no sense making a big deal about this one pitiful thing in our lives that we do...it isn't as if we sink hours of arduous work into it or anything..."

chromedog
18-02-2011, 22:48
LOVE this! :D Please may I use these terms next time I'm chatting with my friends about this hobby?



Go for it. I stole it from someone else.

One of our podcasts talking about the local tourney scene is called "Mandollies:Serious Business" in an ironic kind of way.

As for self-deprecation:
We armour ourselves in our own mockery, this way the slings and barbs of them can't 'hurt' us.

"Hey man, no-one takes-the-p*ss out of me better than I do."

KronusDaSneaky
18-02-2011, 23:03
I say pew pew when I play...
if you cannot accept that you are a grown man playing with toy soldiers...
then you are probably not a grown man...

I would be more diplomatic but I am confident enough not to worry overly about how people perceive my hobby. I have great time and so what if I make pew pew sounds or make a whooshing sound when my storm raven flies across the table.

There was a time I was more self conscious and I did worry about how I presented myself to the world. This shows up in the fact I had no GW cases. Of course I still don't but thats because I don't like them overly. Now I find I am quite open on the matter and don't worry how people perceive me or my hobby.

Demrush
18-02-2011, 23:16
I agree with Ivellis. I despise the term, in fact. It is as if, because we are adults and our game involves pieces instead of, perhaps, a pigskin oblong ball and pads, we are somehow immature for taking it at all seriously. I have often run into this problem with video games, as well.

How is us playing with figures any different from other grown men being paid millions to play with a bat and ball?

This game obviously is not meant for children, despite much chagrin to the contrary. It requires a rather serious volume of reading for a young child, not to mention a proportionally herculean volume of work, even for the most rudimentary armies. Who, if not strapping young guys in their 20s with some spare time, is supposed to be comfortable playing this game?

What scares me is when I hear other players speaking so nonchalantly in this fashion about themselves. If it is such a shameful game/hobby, why even play it with the rest of us cellar-dwelling momma's boys?

I've never seen a community so hell-bent on making itself look like losers as the 40k group is. It seems folks constantly try to acknowledge the "Fact" that this is a horrible nerdy thing to do. I know I once read here as a lurker that "We are all haunted by the scene in the 40 year old virgin" but, seriously people. Is anyone doing anything to counteract that image?

Also, for what it's worth, I don't see this as BEING our actual image. I have had my minis seen by everyone from old timers to young wannabe rap stars (my brother and his group are a bit confused....). Every person has reacted with nothing but amazement, both at the pieces and at my own alleged talent for building and painting them. I've even had one rap/gangster type ask me to build him one "just cause it's so ill, like." And I'm not even a good painter!

By the same token as the bat and ball analogy above, the painting is the same thing. You tell someone you paint pictures, you're an artist. You tell someone you paint models, and you're...well...the 40 year old virgin.

I think the dismissive attitude toward the game by its players is a shame. I sometimes feel like I am the only person on earth who plays this game who isn't completely ashamed of it. It is also extremely, extremely insulting to anyone who has put in as much work as I have toward having a good army and being a good hobbyist and player.

And for what it's worth, most of the time, I don't usually see the grown men spouting this. It's the youngish ones -- still desperate to walk the line between being considered the coolest dude all their friends know, and being who he'd rather be.

I'm not here to bash your whole post because the majority of it, I agree with. However, I must ask...are you seriously comparing football to a toy soldier hobby?...Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a miniature wargaming lover as everyone else on these forums BUT I can't let this ridiculous analogy go by me...

Football is a real "sport". At high levels, it involves tremendous conditioning, skill, discipline and raw talent. You can't tell me that our hobby can be compared to what the likes of Wayne Rooney accomplish in Old Tafford...He gets paid in accordance with his talent and guess what...When you are in the top 99th percentile of a sport that's practiced by millions around the world, you better damn be famous and rich! If anything, I could argue that at the very least, practicing football as a hobby keeps you in good shape and we all know that our health is the most precious thing we've got...Right!?

Spell_of_Destruction
19-02-2011, 02:22
I'm not here to bash your whole post because the majority of it, I agree with. However, I must ask...are you seriously comparing football to a toy soldier hobby?...Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a miniature wargaming lover as everyone else on these forums BUT I can't let this ridiculous analogy go by me...

Football is a real "sport". At high levels, it involves tremendous conditioning, skill, discipline and raw talent. You can't tell me that our hobby can be compared to what the likes of Wayne Rooney accomplish in Old Tafford...He gets paid in accordance with his talent and guess what...When you are in the top 99th percentile of a sport that's practiced by millions around the world, you better damn be famous and rich! If anything, I could argue that at the very least, practicing football as a hobby keeps you in good shape and we all know that our health is the most precious thing we've got...Right!?

I'd like to add, why not do both? Just because one is not sporty and prefers gaming and other non strenuous hobbies isn't an excuse for not taking care of yourself. I look at a of gamers and think they would do well to take better care of themselves and more pride in their appearance (I'm not saying they need to become metrosexuals and start using a lot of skin and hair products). Like it or not, people will make a strong judgement in the first few seconds after meeting you. I'm not a great athlete but I enjoy running and playing soccer and I'm in decent physical shape as a result.

The hobby does attract a fair share of socially awkward people. Unfortunately it's a fact of life that being the best player on the soccer team is more socially rewarding then being able to win a GT or a Golden Daemon. This is a hangover from days when being the best hunter, fighter etc. made you a more desirable mate and more likely to have a prominent position in the community.

Saying that I don't make any great effort to hide my hobby (I don't go out of my way to bring it up either as I assume that most people won't be interested). I have enough self confidence that I don't really care about getting a ribbing from my friends who think it's sad. I just take it in good humour and make sure I always have plenty of ammunition for a comeback.

What I'm saying is that the hobby itself doesn't make you a loser. I've known plenty of guys who play who are the antithesis of a loser and they're always the most laid back about the hobby. If you lack self confidence and are ashamed of playing the hobby maybe you need to work on you social skills or physique or whatever's holding you back because shelving the minis certainly isn't going to solve your problems.

DeviantApostle
19-02-2011, 03:13
Football is a real "sport". At high levels, it involves tremendous conditioning, skill, discipline and raw talent.
While I'm not about to bash sport as a means of entertainment, nor the skill of those involved, in the end high end sportspersons (not to be sexist) earn millions of dollars for something that doesn't really advance the human race. It's not like they're out there curing cancer or building a hygrogen engine.

While such sports are bigger business than more casual games like 40K, the thing that really irks me when a sports-lover goes on about their teams and will then scorn gamers is that essentially, they're doing the same thing we are, it's just that their hobby is more culturally accepted at the moment. We may have gamers that take things too far (and I am as guilty of this as the next gamer) but I've yet to see a wargamer inflict as much damage as a soccer hooligan.

Sir_Turalyon
19-02-2011, 13:55
I was under impression we're discussing watching football as hobby, not playing it. Top football players are paid professionals, not hobbyists.

Back to the topic, I used to keep my hobby out of sight of my friends, only to notice I have no reason to do so. Yes, they adapt the term "toy soldiers" as often as "miniatures", and tend to upplay the collecting / painting / scupulting part, but fortunately treat it as seriously as their own bizzare hobbies:

-So how are your toy soldiers?
-Great, i recently bought what looked like mundane old piece for mere 4$, then after striping the paint it turned out to be rare, limited christmas edition from 88'.
-Sounds great.
-And how is your chorus/climbing club / dancing / child? ...
-[A description I don't really understand]

I also catched one of my friends asking me in detail about painting techniques, different purpose brushes etc in the morning, then using the knowledge to impress a girl evening few hours later. Were still together when I last saw them.

Johnmclane
19-02-2011, 17:29
I don't really see the parallell between playing/painting toy soldiers with your friends with the same interest, and being socially awkward. It's probably more about being forced hanging out with people you would not choose if it wasn't for the common interest.

And the fact that everyone needs to belong somewhere and socially awkward people (and everyone else as well), and guys more than girls, seek out some special interest to meet friends and likeminded people.

Are you interested in sports, you start playing sports, meet friends there and form your own sub-culture, if you like thai-boxing, you start to train thai-boxing. The soccerplayer, thaiboxer and tabletop-gamer all have their own subcultures, and don't really understand eachother.
If you are a geek that likes to remember every player in a soccerteam, thats gonna be more socially accepted as that hobby is bigger than remembering the stats for an eldar exarch.
The difference that impresses people is that we have to actually do stuff, paint and build models. And our hobby is actually not expensive compared to many hobbies, but it's hard for most people to understand why we buy the stuff. Easiest way for me is to compare it to going to the movies, and how much entertainment I get for my cash.

Excessus
20-02-2011, 09:19
I just found an old Games Worksshop mailorder box, and on the bottom of that it says "THIS IS NOT A TOY"... :)

spurker
20-02-2011, 09:41
Um, isn't football a game? It has players, it is played. We're all grown men playing with boys toys, I just think that wargamers (at least in my experience) are a bit more honest with themselves that what they are doing is playing.
Anyway, painting is a skill that requires as much practice as football, and people can earn a hell of a lot of money by being a painter.

adeptusphotographicus
20-02-2011, 10:28
Painting is a skill, not unlike any skill. but in terms of similar skills it really just involves hand eye coordination and a degree of artistic ability.

football, is a sport and a athletic sport at that so is nothing at all like gaming or painting. paintball, would be a similar wargame sport.

you cannot compare the two in anyway , well meaningful way.

MvS
20-02-2011, 10:43
I think the best comparison is with computer games.

Due to their massive popularity, computer games aren't generally considered 'geeky' or childish any more, but they can have just as 'silly' backstories, are just as submersive and, frankly, are less social (Wii not withstanding) than wargaming or collecting and painting miniatures.

Our hobby is submersive and social and requires the development of certain skills to 'do' well. I suppose the main difference is that miniature toy soldiers don't come ready assembled, painted and moving around (unlike videogame sprites) and so require more imagination up-front in order to picture them as they could be with a bit of time and effort invested. In fact I think the entire wargaming hobby requires more imagination than video-gaming.

All of that said, there are certainly 'Warhammer nerds' who are in their thirties and forties, only talk about the hobby, don't seem to have friends outside of the hobby and rarely seem to wash, but then this phenomenum is not restricted to GW hobbyists.

There are plenty of computer game nerds who rarely leave their consols and football nerds who only talk about football while shovelling kebabs/curries down their throats, and so on and on, it's just these are more common and so perhaps less of a 'niche' target.

Chapters Unwritten
20-02-2011, 10:44
Football is a real "sport". At high levels, it involves tremendous conditioning, skill, discipline and raw talent. You can't tell me that our hobby can be compared to what the likes of Wayne Rooney accomplish in Old Tafford...He gets paid in accordance with his talent and guess what...When you are in the top 99th percentile of a sport that's practiced by millions around the world, you better damn be famous and rich!While obviously it is incredibly difficult to become a master at a sport, and it can take a lifetime of dedication, I ask you to imagine a hypothetical "Wayne Rooney of 40k" that is in the top 99th percentile of Warhammer. Playing, painting, building and converting. Now, ask yourself, could a person with that level of skill have invested 20 years of their life into 40k, the way someone could invest 20 years of their life into a sport?

Now granted it's a lot harder to get into an entry-level position in football than it is to Warhammer, of course. But there is another factor to consider: You can play 40k if you are, say, a poor painter. But you can't play major league ball if you aren't at least worth fielding. Now imagine a world where the only people allowed to use/buy 40k products were people who painted them to a standard for, say, consideration for the Golden Demon. Suddenly, with the barriers to entry comparable, the skillset becomes similarly comparable, at least in terms of scale. (it is always going to be harder to take a hit on the football field then it is to paint a model because one hurts!)

My point overall is that it has much more in common with a sport then a simple board game or video game.


What I'm saying is that the hobby itself doesn't make you a loser. I've known plenty of guys who play who are the antithesis of a loser and they're always the most laid back about the hobby. If you lack self confidence and are ashamed of playing the hobby maybe you need to work on you social skills or physique or whatever's holding you back because shelving the minis certainly isn't going to solve your problems. This is sort of my overall view. Most of the people I play with fit this bill. And in fact, because of that, we have a very cool thing at our club; social opportunities that no other medium offers. Where else will a grown man show respect to an adolescent child and shake his hand because he defeated him handily? Where else would, as it is in my club, a socially awkward guy make friends and gain respect when normally he would be treated as worthless because he can't throw a ball?


While such sports are bigger business than more casual games like 40K, the thing that really irks me when a sports-lover goes on about their teams and will then scorn gamers is that essentially, they're doing the same thing we are, it's just that their hobby is more culturally accepted at the moment. We may have gamers that take things too far (and I am as guilty of this as the next gamer) but I've yet to see a wargamer inflict as much damage as a soccer hooligan. This is sort of my point. What we are doing is no different than what "they" are. I understand that a sport on TV watched by millions is perfectly more acceptable to speak about in social context, but I never understood what makes me a loser for discussing 40k strategy, by a guy who in the same breath is talking about his fantasy baseball league plans.


I used to keep my hobby out of sight of my friends, only to notice I have no reason to do so. Yes, they adapt the term "toy soldiers" as often as "miniatures", and tend to upplay the collecting / painting / scupulting part, but fortunately treat it as seriously as their own bizzare hobbiesThis is how I feel it should be, at least by default. But so many people are ashamed of the hobby, they don't ever make it a known-enough portion of their social dealings for it to ever be respected in this manner.

Trasvi
20-02-2011, 12:20
I tell annoying jocks to 'go have a play outside with your ball'. I know I play toy soldiers, but other people don't seem to understand that their 'fashion' hobby is just an adult version of 'playing dress-ups', and football is just 'go have a play outside with your ball'

One thing that annoys me is how maintaining spreadsheets and rules for Fantasy Football leagues are comparatively acceptable to mainstream, but having spreadsheets and rules for Fantasy Warhammer is not...
(Sorry I didn't read the whole thread)

Cosmic_Girl
20-02-2011, 12:31
Gamers do plenty of sterotyping of their own. Every time I go into gaming stores, its pretty much assumed, I'm lost on my way to a shoe store or looking to buy for a nephew/brother/boyfriend etc... and that I have no idea what I'm doing. Add to the fact that they all pretty much talk to my chest, its turned me off GW stores, plus online shopping is way cheaper.

C-girl.

spurker
20-02-2011, 12:51
Cosmic girl, this seems to be the experience of both my wife and mother in law. They walk in knowing what they want to get me and the GW employees look at them like they are speaking another language, then tell them what they already knew...

KarlPedder
20-02-2011, 13:23
Football is a real "sport". At high levels, it involves tremendous conditioning, skill, discipline and raw talent. You can't tell me that our hobby can be compared to what the likes of Wayne Rooney accomplish in Old Tafford...He gets paid in accordance with his talent and guess what...When you are in the top 99th percentile of a sport that's practiced by millions around the world, you better damn be famous and rich! If anything, I could argue that at the very least, practicing football as a hobby keeps you in good shape and we all know that our health is the most precious thing we've got...Right!?

Um sorry the only difference is the popularity (especially the popularity as a spectator sport) and that one is physical the other is mental, if you don't believe that a highy skilled tactician is as impressive as a highly skilled athelete maybe this isn't the right hobby for you....


Gamers do plenty of sterotyping of their own. Every time I go into gaming stores, its pretty much assumed, I'm lost on my way to a shoe store or looking to buy for a nephew/brother/boyfriend etc... and that I have no idea what I'm doing. Add to the fact that they all pretty much talk to my chest, its turned me off GW stores, plus online shopping is way cheaper.

C-girl.

I don't know that its stereotyping so much as a statistical annomaly pure and simple fact is the gender ratio amongst games is extremely one sided yes its getting better but gaming is still a sausage fest for the most part and there is a tendency amongst alot of gamers towards social awkwardness alot of which is the result of the social stigma assosciated with not just gaming but many of the other "dork" hobbies that gamers commonly pursue so when a female comes into their midst they often cant help but goggle at the boobs take if for what it is a compliment.....

MvS
20-02-2011, 13:28
Cosmic girl, this seems to be the experience of both my wife and mother in law. They walk in knowing what they want to get me and the GW employees look at them like they are speaking another language, then tell them what they already knew...
I think it depends on the shop. My wife has never had this problem and is a closer friend of the local GW employees than I am - despite the fact that she isn't involved in the hobby herself at all.

Moriarty
20-02-2011, 14:58
Add to the fact that they all pretty much talk to my chest, its turned me off GW stores.
C-girl.

I have the same problem - but that is just because I'm tall. Look on the bright side, they'll never see that flank attack coming :-)

Andy p
09-03-2011, 18:20
Gamers do plenty of sterotyping of their own. Every time I go into gaming stores, its pretty much assumed, I'm lost on my way to a shoe store or looking to buy for a nephew/brother/boyfriend etc... and that I have no idea what I'm doing. Add to the fact that they all pretty much talk to my chest, its turned me off GW stores, plus online shopping is way cheaper.

C-girl.

That's a shame although maybe it depends on the shop you go to. Where I used to play, until it moved, 3 of the 5 staff were girls and were far more knowledgable about the game than I was.

sever14
09-03-2011, 21:46
All I have to say is that if a man doesnt like playing with toy soldiers hes not a man and ashamed of himself. Also I like the book written by HG Wells Little Wars

Little Wars is a set of rules for playing with toy soldiers, written by H. G. Wells in 1913. Its full title is Little Wars: a game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books.

Tokamak
09-03-2011, 21:50
It's the general perception that grown ups shouldn't play games of any kind that is the problem here. People, no matter how old, should be more playful and creative.

prowla
10-03-2011, 00:52
Interesting story. My wife calls Warhammer, my "nerd" game. However, when people come over, she is always quick to point out to other people my painted miniatures and often raves about the difficulty to paint something so small, to such a high quality and seems to be very proud of my skill.

Yeah.. it's kinda weird, I've heard many so-called normal girls comment that it's "cool" to have a skill like painting miniatures, including my current GF who isn't into nerdy stuff at all. I've heard that many girls like men who can do stuff crafty stuff with their hands, so I guess it falls into that category.


I love my toy soldiers I am proud of my hobby and I am never ashamed of it; I will talk with my colleagues freely about my hobby (though I won't sperg out like I do with my fellow hobbyists about the more esoteric points of the game) but I have nothing to hide. And they ARE toy soldiers and they are awesome.


Exactly! Personally I consider them to be "scale models with a gaming function", but I've thought that it's the fact that they're toy soldiers that makes it so much fun. It's a bit nerdy and a bit childish, but come on, people do love the same stuff they did when they were kids. I mean, have you ever seen a grown man say no to a chance to poke his friend with a plastic toy sword? :D

One of the best things about wargaming is that there's so many things about it. It's a social game that requires some skill and intelligence, a craft that requires practice and dexterity, plus you get to be creative, too. There's a ton of hobbies that don't give you nearly as much.

WetAndCold
10-03-2011, 11:53
Hi, first post on these forums. I've just been reading through this, with great interest actually. I've kind of just started warhammer (well, unless you can consider joining the 'warhammer club' at school when I was 8 starting :D)

I've bought and painted some models (some not warhammer) and it has confused me a bit as to how many people say they put arduous amounts of time/work/money into the hobby. I've found the hobby to be an easy thing to do, I don't really have to think that much. Just read the codex, and glue and paint some models. The tactical gaming side of it looks fun, but again, not really something I would have to put too much mental effort into. It's a game isn't it? My games workshop is 20 miles away and since I cycle, I thought, if I'm not doing anything else on a weekend (i.e. if it's raining) I could fling a ruksack over my shoulder, cycle their and play a game for an hour or so. But the way some people talk about it, it appears to take up all of their time and mental ability. Is it more 'full on' than I'm assuming it will be?

On the 'other sports' bit. My 'main hobbies' (if you can call them that) are cycling and rock climbing, and these take a hell of a lot more effort; mentaly and physicaly than making models (in my albeit limited experience with miniatures). They are also a lot more expensive. Although overpriced imo, to collect an army costs ~£250 Thats nothing in the cycling or rock climbing world. It's less value obviously (plastic miniatures vs something that can save your life while climbing :p) but it's not expensive.

So, is it really such a challenging/hard/time consuming hobby? Because I didn't really think it was...

Xandros
10-03-2011, 12:32
Maturity is realizing that you're not.

Knowing that you never will be.

Memento te esse mortalum.