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View Full Version : So, whatcha think of the new O&G AB?



theorox
12-02-2011, 20:16
So far, i mean. ;) I'm looking forward to it.

Theo

Jind_Singh
12-02-2011, 20:20
It's a resounding 8.5 out of 10 for me :D

sssk
12-02-2011, 20:32
As a goblin player, I'll miss the staff of sneaky stealing, and the one 'it wunda (for the name, not really the effect).

Everything else (as in every single other thing) which will affect me (as a goblin only player) which has come up so far seems an improvement (to some extent).

There's nothing more to it really

Malorian
12-02-2011, 20:38
As a goblin player, I'll miss the staff of sneaky stealing, and the one 'it wunda (for the name, not really the effect).

I'm going to miss that item too, but then again I look forward to stealing dice when I cast little waaagh spells ;)

jthdotcom
12-02-2011, 20:47
The only thing that disappoinmts me is the lack of shiny stuff (magic items). Although there are loads of items in the BRB, if all the new AB's are going this way, every character you ever see will be tooled up exactly the same way, it seems the 2character2is going to be lost from our characters

wolsey
12-02-2011, 20:48
I am very disappointed with the book, for me it has barely changed seems a very lazy effort. I do like the change in animosity but overall the book seems very much the same as the old one.

Tadite
12-02-2011, 20:49
Should have had a option to pick that it's crap. Preferring the old one isn't harsh enough not when the old one was one of the worst books in the game.

Gork or Possibly Mork
12-02-2011, 20:54
I will miss some things but overall Im excited.

decker_cky
12-02-2011, 21:03
Only disappointment is the magic items. Much better book overall than the last one. Lots of characterful little bits.

Urgat
12-02-2011, 21:13
I can't really say I'm disapointed since I started being pessimistic, but there's way too many odd design choices for me to celebrate.

Avian
12-02-2011, 21:16
It's really annoying that in a couple of army books' time, they will have reversed the dull idea of having a tiny amount of magic items. :(


I'm somewhat indifferent. Not nearly as excited as I had hoped to be.

Zaonite
12-02-2011, 21:18
I really like the look of the new style Army Book. I think it's taking a step back to the roots of warhammer. Certainly looks like it to me. Love it.

Colonel Kolm
12-02-2011, 21:19
all told im very excited. the lack of magic items will be sad but since ive always been about the boyz and regular units it wont effect me as it would some. but i definitly like the new additions as well as the reduction in points for some units

Malorian
12-02-2011, 21:23
Those who are sad because of the magic items should look at the four pages worth in the main rule book...

I'm I sad to see all the old options go? Sure I am, but I can see why they did it.

rob_appo
12-02-2011, 21:41
The hard back thing is awsome but the 22 price hike is a sneaky money grabbing trick.

BorderKing
12-02-2011, 21:47
I'm happy that O&G only got 8 magic items as I don't play them, but I don't like the precedent this has set.

Lorcryst
12-02-2011, 22:19
As a Night Goblin player with a fondness for Squigs and Fanatics, I'm excited ...

A bit disapointed perhaps about the 8 magic items (that's really few), but since I only used the Staff of Sneaky Stealing and the Magic Mushrooms (plus a couple of scrolls from the BRB), I think I'll survive without problems.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
12-02-2011, 23:53
I'm not to sure, some weird things have happened with the book in my oppinion. I still need to have a closer look under the belly to make a conclusion.

Cheers,
G

ftayl5
13-02-2011, 00:45
I'm going to miss that item too, but then again I look forward to stealing dice when I cast little waaagh spells ;)

Yeah seems like a pretty fair trade off to me.
Will miss the Amulet of Protectyness and the Trisksy Trinket and Wollopa's one hit Wunda and...
Hope Maad's Map is still there (but it probably isn't.)

Overall I'm pleased though, nice big spider, some sneaky little common goblins, cool sounding animosity, cheaper goblins, chariot 'units.' Sounds pretty cool so far, haven't got a chance to read it myself though yet :(

Storak
13-02-2011, 07:58
i am disappointed by the stuff that i know so far.

i think the book did a good job at internal balance (at least you can see they tried to accomplish this) and it is more fitting to the O&G character. ("fluffy" if you want to use that term. for example an aggressive animosity table)

i think they did a very bad job on two different aspects. (all based on the stuff we know so far)

1. they did not fix normal cavalry.
this was the big task for the first army book. boar boys were completely useless and the book was the one single opportunity to change this. i think they did not.

2. external balancing
i think they did a very bad job on this. point costs went up. many players who are currently happy with some of the new gimmicks will soon realise, that their old army will cost MORE points now. orcs became more expensive, NG became more expensive and characters and command groups got more expensive. your army will shrink in size, if you want to add any of the new stuff.

it is rather difficult to evaluate the new animosity, but i expect that a forced charge against the closest enemy will still cause problems quite often.

the loss of magic defence is a serious problem for low ini and low strength units and characters. this can t be compensated by a little more magic offence.

ps: there is no suitable option in the poll for my opinion.

Jind_Singh
13-02-2011, 08:18
Well I disagree - quite stongly - I save NINETY POINTS on my same list I used back in the old book - and not only do I save 90pts but I get BETTER rules for the units I use!

I get choppa rule on anything!
My Black Orcs are ITP
My pump wagons are unbreakable AND get an extra D6 movement!
My 2 fanatics are even BETTER than before

And in addition to this my Waaagh gets me better combat res, AND I have 90pts left to spend - 2 more pump wagons perhaps?!

Yes - they didn't make normal cav dirt cheap - but we still have best cav options - our savage cav get coppa rule AND additional choppa! for 4pts more they become biguns - and still comparable to Empire Inner Circle! :D

Our giants went down in price, as did the trolls - the Night Gobbos are cheaper (for me, as I took 40 Spears), ONLY characters to see a points increase were Black Orcs - all in all it's a solid book - spend an hour with it and you'll see that it's better than ever! :)

Urgat
13-02-2011, 08:44
My 2 fanatics are even BETTER than before

How so? Now the opponent doesn't even need to stop to kill them. I should calculate how much I save on my usual list, can be interesting (I use lots of trolls and charriots, I should save quite a lot That being said I don't remember the point cost of most things, and I can't be bothered to check all these pages of rumours and comments).

rb.uhs
13-02-2011, 09:26
I love sneaky Goblins.

10/10

Clanrat
13-02-2011, 10:11
personally, from what ive seen so far i think it will be a great book.

Yes i know people are a bit upset with the lack of magic items, but around here ive always found that its only really about 6 or 7 items from each book that get used regularly anyway, so i dont see this as a problem, besides, it means more points to spend on boyz :)

Quite like the idea of goblin chariots in units (if indeed they are in units) as ive always liked the way the tomb kings ones look on the battlefield (even if that book does have some issues..im going more on aesthetics here) and ill be overjoyed if this means i can now have some decent backup for the good ole paunch himself :)

overall, the book strikes me has having been written more with a view to representing the fluff better than making one all powerful army and if they can keep this up (which admittedly is the $64000 dollar question) i can see great things happenening to warhammer over the next few years.

Last thing, animosity table.....much improved (ok charging when you dont want to is a drawback, but frankly its much better than standing around all day twiddling your thumbs hoping the warboss doesnt spot you slacking )

These opinions howeverare based pretty much on the stuff ive read here, but even if they`re only reasonably accurate i can see myslef marching to war under the united colours of Gobbetton for a long time to come.

Djekar
13-02-2011, 11:55
My vote is for "tentatively excited, but as I've been burned before I'm a little wary that the hand that gives will also swat me with a newspaper". I couldn't find that on your poll though, Theo.

Ronin[XiC]
13-02-2011, 11:58
My army got cheaper as well.
Cheaper Wyvern, cheaper wolfchariots, cheaper trolls, cheaper BO, cheaper Bigunz with 2nd handweapon.

snottlebocket
13-02-2011, 12:02
;5310732']My army got cheaper as well.
Cheaper Wyvern, cheaper wolfchariots, cheaper trolls, cheaper BO, cheaper Bigunz with 2nd handweapon.

What does the wyvern cost now? I always liked it but thought it was way too expensive for what it did.

Haravikk
13-02-2011, 12:05
I think it's an improvement, but it doesn't seem like they've done that much with it. I was hoping for a bigger shake-up rather than incremental improvements. I'm not too fussy about what was done with Boar Boyz, as they're fairly nasty and not too expensive, so I don't agree with the people that think the book has failed to address cavalry, as Orcs & Goblins are more of a horde army anyway.

It does seem like all we're going to see a massive number of Savage Orcs in future lists though, as while other units aren't bad, they're not as cost effective. I can understand GW wanting to sell new miniatures, but if everything were still good then they'd sell more of everything, rather than a particular set.

Ronin[XiC]
13-02-2011, 12:06
-40 points. And no, it's not too expensive :) It's totally worth it's points. Yeah it's risky against gunlines but what's not risky against gunlines ^^

I usually get a cheap orc waaghboss with 4+ ward and the "ignore first hit on a 2+) shield.
That way I can easily get a Level 4 in the army as well.
Level 4 AND Wyvern is quite the force.

Or you could put a savage orc Level 4 on the wyvern, give im the 4+ wardsave and pray to the gods that you get "Fists of gork"! 1 attack base +1 for frenzy +3 for spell = 5 attacks
S4 base +1 choppa +4 spell = 8
5 Attacks Strength 8 on a shaman :D If you wan't to be even more crazy you can give him the +2 attack sword!

snottlebocket
13-02-2011, 12:20
;5310748']-40 points. And no, it's not too expensive :) It's totally worth it's points. Yeah it's risky against gunlines but what's not risky against gunlines ^^

I usually get a cheap orc waaghboss with 4+ ward and the "ignore first hit on a 2+) shield.
That way I can easily get a Level 4 in the army as well.
Level 4 AND Wyvern is quite the force.

Or you could put a savage orc Level 4 on the wyvern, give im the 4+ wardsave and pray to the gods that you get "Fists of gork"! 1 attack base +1 for frenzy +3 for spell = 5 attacks
S4 base +1 choppa +4 spell = 8
5 Attacks Strength 8 on a shaman :D If you wan't to be even more crazy you can give him the +2 attack sword!

Dunno, I always figured the wyvern as something too expensive to fill a pegasus' role and too weak to fill a real monster's role.

I'd have been pretty happy if they made it just a bit weaker, a bit cheaper and made it a hero mount.

sssk
13-02-2011, 12:21
I think it's an improvement, but it doesn't seem like they've done that much with it.

I agree. I think what 7th edition was to 6th edition, the new army book is to the previous (current) army book. It's basically just waggling things a bit so that they fit in better.

Ronin[XiC]
13-02-2011, 12:25
Dunno, I always figured the wyvern as something too expensive to fill a pegasus' role and too weak to fill a real monster's role.

I'd have been pretty happy if they made it just a bit weaker, a bit cheaper and made it a hero mount.

Pegasus with S6 thunderstomp 5 wounds and so one. It also buffs your leadership range to 18". All that for just 160 points. Compare the stats and the point costs to any other big flying monster. It really is that good!
Yeah, it only has 3 attacks. But those are S6 and poison! Griphons and similar bigger monster (everything that is not a dragon) has usually got 4 attacks but only s5 and no poison.
S6 is so great because, as I said, you have S6 thunderstomp!
Oh it got even better btw! Now the Rider can have a magical weapon and still get +1 S in the first round of combat. Awesomesauce :D

It's definately not perfect but It won me many games. It also is the only flying thing we have... and the moveability (is that even a word?) of it is so important.

A flying hero mount.. yeah.. that would have been awesome :( but we can at least put our heroes on chariots. goblinhero on a wolfchariot is not 35+50 points. It's still a one-hit wonder but with M9 and swiftstride it's almost as fast as a flyer.

Stinkingyeti
13-02-2011, 12:26
Finally got my hands on it today for a good look.

Love it. Can't wait to see that spider in action too.

snottlebocket
13-02-2011, 12:26
I agree. I think what 7th edition was to 6th edition, the new army book is to the previous (current) army book. It's basically just waggling things a bit so that they fit in better.

Is that so bad? I think the greenskin book has been just about perfect for the past 20 years. It doesn't need drastic changes, it just needs some tinkering to fit into each new ruleset.

As long as it's got it's staple units and gadgets it's good.

Lordsaradain
13-02-2011, 13:10
From the rumours I've heard, I'm not excited at all. Personally I'd rather play with the 6th edition armybook + the new units.

Quell animosity is still worthless, waaagh! has been nerfed, the magic items are expensive and boring, goblins still seem expensive...

I do like the new gigantic spider though, very cool model, I'd like to get me one of those.

snottlebocket
13-02-2011, 13:14
Quell animosity is still worthless, waaagh! has been nerfed, the magic items are expensive and boring, goblins still seem expensive...


Not worthless. Situational and less than perfect. If it were perfect you might as well do away with the animosity rule.

Lordsaradain
13-02-2011, 13:23
Quell animosity in 6th was much much better. Then you just got to re-roll a failed test, now (and with 7th) a failed animosity test means your boss can potentially wipe out half a unit of his own boar boyz...

Avian
13-02-2011, 13:35
Quell Animosity in 6th was both too good and too dull.

Shimmergloom
13-02-2011, 14:42
Quell in 6th wasn't too good, since Black Orc characters took up extra hero-slots.

But at least they could put to where the black orc could just quell his own unit and not have a quell bubble. Or make it D3 S5 hits, so that these characters can't do more attcks on their own units than they can to the enemy.

Thruster
13-02-2011, 15:01
I've always wondered how can a BO big boss potentially kill 6 of his boyz, when he has only 3-4 attacks.

Also, I think the increase price for normal boyz is rubbish. Beastman Gor price at 7pts, and it has M5, WS4, I3, primal fury, and ambush. While orc boyz at 6pts has M4, WS3, I2, choppa, and animosity.

Captainbastard
13-02-2011, 15:01
Animosity is part of the orc fluff and has always been. If people don't like animosity don't play orcs. Surely the quell animosity rule will stop players from using purely black orc heros and lords? That will surely make the army more fluffy because an orc army should not always be led purely by black orc characters?

If players don't like unpredictable rules such as animostiy then why play orcs? They are not supposed to be a predictable army.

Thruster
13-02-2011, 15:07
The fluff also say that Orcs are numerous. Now 6 points is the same cost as Dark Elf warrior and Chaos Marauder with Great weapons + Light armor.. so I guess they are as easy to breed as we are.

SilentCivilian
13-02-2011, 15:45
I prefered the old book. The new Magic items are worthless at best for the most part. We will see a few cookie cutter characters across all armies as the new books are released if this is the standard of what we can expect.

Sadly give it 18 months and GW will have done a complete reversal and be including 30 odd items again in every book. Once again we get hit hard with the nerf bat because we are one of the first books released and the games developers can still be bothered trying to balance them. We have seen it before, when the Empire and Orncs & Goblins books where released back at the start of 7th everyone was happy with the new books as we thought they marked a new era of well wroitten balanced books. But as time rolled on we got books like High Elves, Vampires, Daemons and Dark Elves which threw this concept away and ruined the balance of the game. We should expect no less from GW they did it in 6th ed too with Wood Elves and Brets at the end of that edition. Why do people think 8th will be any different?

I dont care if 9th ed rolls around and we are left behind like Dark Eldar players for that edition, at least we wont be left with the ginger step child that our book always seems to become. :mad:

DeathlessDraich
13-02-2011, 16:05
Difficult to comment with accuracy having not read the book.

1) Pleased with
a) the change to Animosity - always been necessary - but not ruinous now
b) New Choppa rules
c) Reduction of magic items - but displeased with the omission of the quirky ones
d) New units - from the little I've heard - haven't seen the full details yet
e) Readjustment of points - seems fair
f) Miscast table shifted to BRB

2) Displeased with
a) The erosion of O&G quirkiness - loved many of the old items (the mirror that reflected spells etc) and some of the old 5th ed rules/items.
b) Failure to make squigs more competitive
c) Increase of Snotling pts - maybe the rules are better?
d) Misfire of Chukkas
e) Black Orc still causing wounds to quell Animosity
f) Lack of imagination for the Flinger - yet another type of stone thrower?

snottlebocket
13-02-2011, 16:58
The fluff also say that Orcs are numerous. Now 6 points is the same cost as Dark Elf warrior and Chaos Marauder with Great weapons + Light armor.. so I guess they are as easy to breed as we are.

Human armies are also horde armies. Marauders certainly come in great barbarian hordes and the empire fields great masses of men as well. Basic dark elf warriors might be cheap but by the time they're equiped and trained to a more elite status they're decidedly not.

You won't see that many dark elf armies with several blocks of 30+ warriors like you do with orcs.

Storak
13-02-2011, 17:17
Human armies are also horde armies. Marauders certainly come in great barbarian hordes and the empire fields great masses of men as well. Basic dark elf warriors might be cheap but by the time they're equiped and trained to a more elite status they're decidedly not.

You won't see that many dark elf armies with several blocks of 30+ warriors like you do with orcs.

you made an important discovery there. all over 7th edition, people were telling us how good our orcs are. and indeed we saw O&G armies with unit after unit of common orc boys.

at the same time, multiple other armies with access to units that perform nearly identical in combat (DE spears, empire swordmen, chaos marauders) did NOT chose to field those units.

now orcs went up in price. it is insane.

Nighthawke
13-02-2011, 17:24
after reading it im still excited but it is a bit of a meh book, except a few new things it is just the previous book with points costs twiged and a few new rules, black orcs i feel are still to exspensive for what they are when you consider an orc bigun with all the ugrades ( i know you cant do this) is 11 points, so for those 2 extra points you gain ItP and dont take animosity.
squigs aer still pretty useless like they were with the previous book in 8th and i do think the spider is to expsensivev as well for what it is, if it had more survivabilty that would be fine but T6 and a 4+ dosnt do that much for you.
so yeah its a good book but still suffers from our previous books problems.

snottlebocket
13-02-2011, 17:24
you made an important discovery there. all over 7th edition, people were telling us how good our orcs are. and indeed we saw O&G armies with unit after unit of common orc boys.

at the same time, multiple other armies with access to units that perform nearly identical in combat (DE spears, empire swordmen, chaos marauders) did NOT chose to field those units.

now orcs went up in price. it is insane.

Uhm not really. For greenskins it works because they have the proper support in place to run units like that. If you try it with dark elves you'll get murdered. Empire armies do run large units frequently.

Dark Elves have very expensive models that are fairly essential to their army. If you bulk out on horde units, you lack the points to properly support them with dark elves, your infantry will be stubborn but lack the tools to win the battle.

Orcs can properly support their horde units. Their essential support is much cheaper because it is unreliable. Which you can afford to compensate for because they're relatively cheap. Orcs got a boost in efficiency in the 8th so they're rightfully slightly more expensive now.

Ronin[XiC]
13-02-2011, 17:25
now orcs went up in price. it is insane.
They didn't

Additional handweapons are exactly the same.
Spear and shield are exactly the same
Bigunz are cheaper
Savage orcs with additional handweapons are cheaper
Savage orc bigunz are cheaper

Only 2 things got more expensive.
Naked orcs and orcs with shields.



squigs aer still pretty useless like they were with the previous book in 8th and i do think the spider is to expsensivev as well for what it is, if it had more survivabilty that would be fine but T6 and a 4+ dosnt do that much for you.
so yeah its a good book but still suffers from our previous books problems.

I hope you're talking about hoppers. Because the herdes got a bit better (you can get a better ratio of you want).
And you forgot about the 8 wounds on the spider. That's it's ruvivability.

And combared to a T5 W5 Regen hydra.

20 S4 hits on the hydra
6 wounds, 5 through armor, 2.5 through regen.
20 S4 hits on the spider
3 wounds, 2 through armor,

Make it 20 flaming S4 hits
2 wounds on the spider
5 wounds on the hydra. Hydra is now dead.

Against S4 the spider has pretty good protection thanks to T6.
Against higher strength attacks it becomes a bit weaker, yes. But even against S5 it's not that bad either

20 S5 hits on the hydra
10 wounds, 9 through armor, 4.5 through regen.
20 S5 hits on the spider
6-7 wounds, 5-6 through armor

Hydra could be dead.
Spider still lives with 2-3 HP.

20 flaming S5 hits on the hydra
10 wounds, 9 through armor
dead twice
6-7 wounds on the spider, 5-6 through armor
still lives.

Avian
13-02-2011, 17:49
;5311357']Spear and shield are exactly the same
Spear and shield is +1 pt but gain the benefits of choppas. (Certainly an odd way to use a spear... ;))

Storak
13-02-2011, 17:51
Uhm not really. For greenskins it works because they have the proper support in place to run units like that. If you try it with dark elves you'll get murdered. Empire armies do run large units frequently.

Dark Elves have very expensive models that are fairly essential to their army. If you bulk out on horde units, you lack the points to properly support them with dark elves, your infantry will be stubborn but lack the tools to win the battle.

Orcs can properly support their horde units. Their essential support is much cheaper because it is unreliable. Which you can afford to compensate for because they're relatively cheap. Orcs got a boost in efficiency in the 8th so they're rightfully slightly more expensive now.

what support are you talking about? orcs took some artillery, chariots and a few fun units. there was no fancy special "support". at least nothing that black guard couldn t do just as well.


;5311357']They didn't

Additional handweapons are exactly the same.
Spear and shield are exactly the same
Bigunz are cheaper
Savage orcs with additional handweapons are cheaper
Savage orc bigunz are cheaper

Only 2 things got more expensive.
Naked orcs and orcs with shields.

yes. i am talking about the units that got actually used. they got used because they were the strongest units. making weaker units cheaper is good for internal balancing of the book, but not (necessarily) for external balancing.

i am actually really shocked by the amount of people who were running armies with really horrible choices. (gobbo spears...)


I hope you're talking about hoppers. Because the herdes got a bit better (you can get a better ratio of you want).
And you forgot about the 8 wounds on the spider. That's it's ruvivability.

And combared to a T5 W5 Regen hydra.

20 S4 hits on the hydra
6 wounds, 5 through armor, 2.5 through regen.
20 S4 hits on the spider
3 wounds, 2 through armor,

Make it 20 flaming S4 hits
2 wounds on the spider
5 wounds on the hydra. Hydra is now dead.

Against S4 the spider has pretty good protection thanks to T6.
Against higher strength attacks it becomes a bit weaker, yes. But even against S5 it's not that bad either

20 S5 hits on the hydra
10 wounds, 9 through armor, 4.5 through regen.
20 S5 hits on the spider
6-7 wounds, 5-6 through armor

Hydra could be dead.
Spider still lives with 2-3 HP.

20 flaming S5 hits on the hydra
10 wounds, 9 through armor
dead twice
6-7 wounds on the spider, 5-6 through armor
still lives.

adding flaming attacks shows some serious bias in your analysis. you forgot to notice the price difference and the handlers basically performing like a ward save.

i fear in direct comparison, the spider will perform worse (and at the very best equalish) than the highend monsters (hydra, HPA, hellcannon) both in offence and defence.

it has advantages, like being fast and the killer bite against characters, but also some problems. (cannons anyone?) at the end, we will only see in battle. my feeling is, that many will rarely use the model they are buying now. (not such a big problem, as it is a very nice one)

the worst comparison is possibly with the hellcannon, if you factor in the net artillery. the cannon has crew ward saves, you get 1.5 for the same price and the template does real damage and might remove units from the game.
this simply is very different for the spider.

snottlebocket
13-02-2011, 17:52
Spear and shield is +1 pt but gain the benefits of choppas. (Certainly an odd way to use a spear... ;))

Hey African tribesmen used extra wide spearheads to make sure their victim's wounds wouldn't clot, close or heal. Then again with orcs they probably really are clobbering their targets with the spears.

Ronin[XiC]
13-02-2011, 18:27
Spear and shield is +1 pt but gain the benefits of choppas. (Certainly an odd way to use a spear... ;))

AH ok, thought spears were 2 points in the old armybook. My mistake.

what support are you talking about? orcs took some artillery, chariots and a few fun units. there was no fancy special "support". at least nothing that black guard couldn t do just as well.

50 point chariots is something DE can't do. De do not have Stonethrowers, Trolls, Giants, Nightgoblins with nets(!!!) and so on.



yes. i am talking about the units that got actually used. they got used because they were the strongest units. making weaker units cheaper is good for internal balancing of the book, but not (necessarily) for external balancing.
many people use 2ndweapon orcs.
And it's not that the increase of a single point is going to break anything in your army...


adding flaming attacks shows some serious bias in your analysis. you forgot to notice the price difference and the handlers basically performing like a ward save.

It was just a comparism to show that one of the toughest monsters (hydra) is not that much more tough than the spider.
The hydra is easily countered with flaming attacks... you can't do the same to the spider


i fear in direct comparison, the spider will perform worse (and at the very best equalish) than the highend monsters (hydra, HPA, hellcannon) both in offence and defence.
well I don't think you're wrong. But hydra is at least 50 points to cheap and the HPA is ... weird... it's just too strong.


it has advantages, like being fast and the killer bite against characters, but also some problems. (cannons anyone?) at the end, we will only see in battle. my feeling is, that many will rarely use the model they are buying now. (not such a big problem, as it is a very nice one)
Cannons can kill all big monsters with one lucky shot. You can't kill a spider with one lucky shot.


I'm not saying that the spider is the best thing ever. But it's not as soft as many think. Again: hydra and HPA can EASILY be countered with flaming attacks. Without regen they are as soft as a giant (t5 and 5-6lp). You cannot do the same with the spider.

scruffyryan
13-02-2011, 18:34
Hydra handlers are actually ones bit by the army book > brb rule. They do not get a handler ward save. All wounds are allocated to the hydra.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
13-02-2011, 20:30
I like the book (aside from the low amount of magic items). My black orcs got better for cheaper (die, chaos knights!), I'll be fielding my pump wagon, I get a big-**** spider, I get savages, and my spellcasting is now awesome (savage orc and NG great shamans in one list, anyone?). Few complaints.

kyussinchains
13-02-2011, 20:45
as long as they release it in paperback for a reasonable price I'll be happy..... 22.50 is a fair wedge for a book.....

Lorcryst
13-02-2011, 20:51
as long as they release it in paperback for a reasonable price I'll be happy..... 22.50 is a fair wedge for a book.....

Won't happen.

We were given snippets by various GW pundits that the new O&G book will pave the way for the entire line of army books for 8th ed.

Hardback will be the norm.

And, really, 22.50 is not that much for a full-colour, hardback book that you'll use for 4+ years.
I've paid five times as much for university books that were obsolete in 2 years ...

snottlebocket
13-02-2011, 20:54
Won't happen.

We were given snippets by various GW pundits that the new O&G book will pave the way for the entire line of army books for 8th ed.

Hardback will be the norm.

And, really, 22.50 is not that much for a full-colour, hardback book that you'll use for 4+ years.
I've paid five times as much for university books that were obsolete in 2 years ...

That's kind of annoying. Who wants to drag hardcover books around.

Lorcryst
13-02-2011, 20:57
That's kind of annoying. Who wants to drag hardcover books around.

Well, me, for one, I like hardback books, but I'm kind of a "book nerd" on top of everything ... but it looks like we won't have the choice, won't we ?

GW has us in a deathgrip, by our most sensible part : our wallet :p

snottlebocket
13-02-2011, 21:01
Well, me, for one, I like hardback books, but I'm kind of a "book nerd" on top of everything ... but it looks like we won't have the choice, won't we ?

GW has us in a deathgrip, by our most sensible part : our wallet :p

I like hardcover books at home, I don't like dragging them along to the shop.

kyussinchains
13-02-2011, 21:01
Won't happen.

Yes, I know, I was taking a shot at GW :)



We were given snippets by various GW pundits that the new O&G book will pave the way for the entire line of army books for 8th ed.

Hardback will be the norm.

And, really, 22.50 is not that much for a full-colour, hardback book that you'll use for 4+ years.

I have to disagree there, for those of us who play several armies, it's a significant cost to replace a book which has 80-90% of the same content barring some new photos and a few rule tweaks..... if they added a fiver to the cost of every regiment box would you be saying the same thing I wonder?

I didn't ask for a hardback book, and I'm fairly sure that most players, given the option of the normal paperback version for a fiver less would go with the cheaper choice.... it's the reason why they don't sell the small format rulebook from IoB seperately, they'd barely sell any of the big rulebooks...... plus I'd certainly be more inclined to get angry when some guy at the local club spills irn bru on it.... :p

Urgat
13-02-2011, 21:06
That's kind of annoying. Who wants to drag hardcover books around.

Me: I don't care. Who is so weak as to wine because the book weight 100g more?


I have to disagree there, for those of us who play several armies, it's a significant cost [snip]

From what the rumours tell us, we're looking at a new book at a rate of about 1.5 per year. Assuming you buy them all, if you judge it's too much of a strain to afford a 22 pounds book every 8 months, this hobby is clearly not for you, if you allow me to say. If we were listening to some people, we'd only get a crappy e-book. Well I'm interested in the hobby side of Warhammer, and a beautifull book appeals to me and I'll be happy to own a nice, hardback book for warhammer.

snottlebocket
13-02-2011, 21:08
Me: I don't care. Who is so weak as to wine because the book weight 100g more?

Space bothers me more than weight really. But going by that statement I'd say you've never been backpacking or camping.:p

Lorcryst
13-02-2011, 21:10
Well, I play Chaos (all three branches), O&Gs, Dwarfs, Empire and High Elves ... plus, I have a bit of Skaven, and I'm tempted by Vampire Counts and Dark Elves ...

And I will buy all those books, even in hardback, to complete my collection ... still need the Wood Elves and Bretonnia books to have everything ...

But you could say I'm a madman, I'm a collector first and foremost :p

Urgat
13-02-2011, 21:20
Space bothers me more than weight really. But going by that statement I'd say you've never been backpacking or camping.:p

Well I do, but a bottle of gaz weights more than a book :p

ElvenGravy
13-02-2011, 22:46
Was really hoping the new orc book would save 8th edition for me but it hasnt. A page and a half of magic items?!?! really. Im so sad I invested so much into WFB now.

Private_SeeD
13-02-2011, 23:13
I got to have a once over at it and all I can say is 'meh' its okay but wish it was a bit more bulk to it, so you could use it to swat away the annoying little kids on Sundays. Its not like I don't like change they just seem pointless imho

dominic_star
13-02-2011, 23:16
Don't play them myself but any reduction in magic items is welcome to me and I have alot of time for that spider they went and painted like a crab. I do feel a bit sorry for everyone who is gonna get their prostate tickled buying it at the new prices though!

UberBeast
13-02-2011, 23:25
Me: I don't care. Who is so weak as to wine because the book weight 100g more?


Besides, haven't you all developed some muscle mass from toting those giant core rulebooks around?

Harwammer
14-02-2011, 10:17
Also, I think the increase price for normal boyz is rubbish. Beastman Gor price at 7pts, and it has M5, WS4, I3, primal fury, and ambush. While orc boyz at 6pts has M4, WS3, I2, choppa, and animosity.

Number crunch! 5 wide, infinite ranks. Naked gor vs boy with xchoppa (since they are both 7 points)
gor
(1/36 chance) frenzy+hatred: 3.70 wounds
(20/36 chance) hatred: 2.47 wounds
(15/36 chance) fury fail: 1.85 wounds
(On average) 2.25 wounds

boy
(1st round) Str 4: 3.75 wounds
(Following rounds) Str 3: 2.50 wounds

As you can see the boys are at advantage in combat. However, the gor is a little faster (M and I) which hopefully balances out it's worse performance in combat. The orcs can expect to win even when charged (in our example).

Note I haven't accounted for synergistic elements such as inspiring presence on the gors, waaagh for the orcs or various spell effects that might tip the tables. I've also assumed the various positive and negative effects of both beastman ambush and animosity/waaagh balance out in the bigger picture (that's for another discussion).

Lukasz_VT
14-02-2011, 10:36
The poll should read:

1) WAAAGH!!

2) WHAAAA!!

3) Wha?

Mr. Ultra
14-02-2011, 10:37
As a little Goblin, the shine of the full-colour, hardback new armybook has dazzled me, so it's a big 10!! :D:cool:

oCoYoRoAoKo
14-02-2011, 11:35
Ive spent quite a bit of time with the new book and to me its more of the same (as in it hasn't inspired me to go pickup an O&G army). As far unit additions go its mainly:

A couple of lackluster special characters (Though Wurzag is a nice addition).
The Goblin 'assasins'
The Aracnarork (Seriously, i know its well pointed and all but i can't look at it without thinking about how its not a hellpit)
and that 'super squig' rare choice (Not sure why you would use it as they rock-lobbers are now in rare).

Aside from that its mainly points tweaks, a couple of special rules changes (Magic lore, Animosity), and that tiny magic item list.

So in conclusion, im really not that bothered about the release.

Avian
14-02-2011, 12:01
Number crunch! 5 wide, infinite ranks. Naked gor vs boy with xchoppa
Who in their right mind fields a Gor with nothing?

orkmiester
14-02-2011, 12:04
After having a quick flick through the book, it does seem a little 'meh' but after looking through our current one not much has changed. I like the way animosity is going- i never experienced the older versions, seems interesting to have an army that can one moment sweep away an enemy when you know you did it all wrong, and then fall apart when your plans seem to be working (this is after talking to some older players).

to be honest they didn't really need much changing (just my opinion before folks get their choppas out!) but the new stuff seems ok the spider looks ok but its that point about cannons... anyway the magic lores have improved a bit, the waagh spell most of us know was broke in many ways so the re- work has some nice things.

other than that it will all come down to how it plays on the tabletop, then i'll make a better judgement on whether it is a good book or not. On that note i like hardback books they maybe more expesnsive but they last longer.

just my few points...

Harwammer
14-02-2011, 12:48
Who in their right mind fields a Gor with nothing?

The post I responded to was comparing boyz to 7 point gors and said the boyz were rubbish. As such I did a like for like comparison using 7 point gors (naked) vs 7 point boyz (xchoppa) and the boyz came out better.

As to whether naked gors get used... I've seen it done in lists (str 3 attacks are nothing to write home about and shields are near useless).

To be honest I don't particularly rate gors. Even if boyz are slightly better than gors... well boyz may still be overpriced since gors probably are too.

Storak
14-02-2011, 13:09
Number crunch! 5 wide, infinite ranks. Naked gor vs boy with xchoppa (since they are both 7 points)
gor
(1/36 chance) frenzy+hatred: 3.70 wounds
(20/36 chance) hatred: 2.47 wounds
(15/36 chance) fury fail: 1.85 wounds
(On average) 2.25 wounds

boy
(1st round) Str 4: 3.75 wounds
(Following rounds) Str 3: 2.50 wounds

As you can see the boys are at advantage in combat. However, the gor is a little faster (M and I) which hopefully balances out it's worse performance in combat. The orcs can expect to win even when charged (in our example).

Note I haven't accounted for synergistic elements such as inspiring presence on the gors, waaagh for the orcs or various spell effects that might tip the tables. I've also assumed the various positive and negative effects of both beastman ambush and animosity/waaagh balance out in the bigger picture (that's for another discussion).


The post I responded to was comparing boyz to 7 point gors and said the boyz were rubbish. As such I did a like for like comparison using 7 point gors (naked) vs 7 point boyz (xchoppa) and the boyz came out better.

As to whether naked gors get used... I've seen it done in lists (str 3 attacks are nothing to write home about and shields are near useless).

To be honest I don't particularly rate gors. Even if boyz are slightly better than gors... well boyz may still be overpriced since gors probably are too.

i agree with your analysis. Gors are rather bad, so the comparison doesn t tell us a lot. (actually one of our biggest fears was, that the O&G book would be similar to the beastmen one)

but it really does highlight a problem, that i have been trying to point out all the time: units must be considered the way they are used. and then the Gors, testing on higher Ld and with an additional handweapon will perform a little bit better.

orcs were used as either arrer boys or with the shield.

i just had decided to remove the arrer boys from my list. they barely ever managed to get a volley of and were not that successful in combat either.

the new animosity rule will hurt arrer boys. as will the price increase. i simply can t imagine to see them, beyond a tiny unit for a flank, mostly because people have got the models.

orcs with shields were not great, but were a left over from 7th edition. some people used them in horde formation, which will now cost significantly more.
with an additional choppa the unit (5 wide) gains 5 attacks, often less than a single extra wound. quite often the parry save would have also saved a wound.

Balerion
14-02-2011, 14:38
That's kind of annoying. Who wants to drag hardcover books around.
Definitely a little annoying, but it will be worth it if the book has better quality binding and holds together more reliably than the current paperbacks do.

Does "full-colour" in the context of this book mean that every page features colouration? Even pages that are just text and b+w pictures?

Nighthawke
14-02-2011, 15:02
well kinda yeah every page is now a browny parchement colour

Andy p
14-02-2011, 15:22
well kinda yeah every page is now a browny parchement colour

So they look like someone has smeared tea all over them then dried them out?

Well I suppose it saves time for when it actually happens.

decker_cky
14-02-2011, 16:12
The quality of the pages is higher than the old ones too. There's a semi-gloss, and even the colour pages just 'pop' more than in previous armybooks. The armylist isn't just black and white with a tinted background - there's colour to the headings, etc.. that looks quite nice. But the colour pages really surprised me, as they're much higher quality to previous colour pages.

kyussinchains
06-03-2011, 15:08
Me: I don't care. Who is so weak as to wine because the book weight 100g more?



From what the rumours tell us, we're looking at a new book at a rate of about 1.5 per year. Assuming you buy them all, if you judge it's too much of a strain to afford a 22 pounds book every 8 months, this hobby is clearly not for you, if you allow me to say. If we were listening to some people, we'd only get a crappy e-book. Well I'm interested in the hobby side of Warhammer, and a beautifull book appeals to me and I'll be happy to own a nice, hardback book for warhammer.

I'm not saying that I can't afford a 22 book every 8 months, hell I could afford a 500 book every 8 months, doesn't mean that I'll be happy to pay the price.... nice strawman

I'm saying that I think GW making the rulebooks 'full colour, hardback' items doesn't add any intrinsic value to the product at all. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's 'polishing a ****' but it's the same approach....

I don't think many people thought the quality of the army books was so unsatisfactory, and IMO it's another case of GW fixing something that isn't broken.

I will say that at first my reaction was quite knee jerk (as it was with 8th edition in general) but unlike every time this sort of thing has happened in the past 20 or so years I've been playing, it hasn't gone away.

I personally am starting to feel overtly exploited, and if this sort of thing continues, GW will lose me as a customer, and I'll take my business to one or several of their competitors...

madden
06-03-2011, 15:35
Bindings are a d&@ sight better there actualy sown rather than glued so no pages should fall out as to the book it's good but seems flat to me and lacking character the items we are left with are ......... Not so good only the stunty smasher is any good as the best banners are for gobbos( who will still run if you sneeze at them ) so 8/10 for quality and only 5/5 for content.

sssk
06-03-2011, 16:29
Well now that I have the book in my possesion, I have to say, I'm quite impressed.

I won't comment on the army list/magic items list/magic lores, because they've been discussed all over the place.

To me, the book seems much higher quality than previous books, the high quality paper, the hardback, the colour on every page, it makes it much more impressive. Now, in my opinion this is entirely needless, because I use an army book to play games (and thus get rules out of) rather than as a coffee table book. HOWEVER, while it is needless for what I use it for, I don't think that necessarily means it isn't worth doing. The book does feel and look like a good piece of work, which I can appreciate. This is something which you can't really understand until you have it there in your hands, but for instance, the difference between black and white unit entries and the slightly faded yellowy brown pages with unit headings in a green banner across the page is subtle but nice to have. As for whether the price is worth the change, I would say no.... but at the same time I was happy to fork out the extra money for it, so read into that what you will.

I haven't really read the background yet, but I have read most of the unit entries for the goblin units, and I think on the whole there's some good stuff there. Nice descriptions mixed in with some amusing bits like in GW products of old. For instance there's a sentence or two about Snazgit, a goblin warboss who defeated the bonerattlerz tribe (who use lots of chariots) by stealing all of their wheels (literally, their wheels) before the battle began. This kind of thing really brings home what the goblins are all about. while I did get quite a strong feeling at times that they'd tried to make goblins into green skaven, I think the goblins do retain some individuality, and the mix of stories as well as good descriptions makes it an educational read.

One point which stumped me a little, was in the great cave squig description, which seemed to suggest that great cave squigs are somewhat more docile than normal squigs, and therefore once caught, the rider can get on there and use weapons rather than just clinging on for dear life (as squig hoppers do).

The picture section is as you'd expect from any other army book. Nothing particularly impressive here.

So on the whole, I think the army book is an improvement, though not necessarily one which was needed. I'm entirely happy with it since I had a bit of money kicking about, but I know to some people (particularly younger players) this may well be an expense which is not needed.

Anyway, overall I'm going to give the book 8/10, losing one mark for increased cost, and one for a lack of imagination in the picture section (I'd have liked to see some dioramas and/or battle style shots, rather than just "here's a unit entry....and here's another....and here's one with shields....and one with 2 hand weapons etc")

xxRavenxx
06-03-2011, 16:40
My goblins arent LD10 stubborn, with ASF (high elf style) and greatweapons, with a 2+ armor and 2+ wardsave, at 3 points a model.

Thusly I hate the book, and all fun options included.

End of story. Everyone who disagrees is wrong by default.

Good day sir. (I said good day sir! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKG07305CBs&feature=related))

Urgat
06-03-2011, 21:22
Right, first new gripe after reading the book: why the heck can't shamans ride giant spiders? I swear they did it on purpose. Thankfully my friends agreed to let me use my old minis and ignore the absence of the option.

ihavetoomuchminis
06-03-2011, 22:11
as others said...i have mixed feelings about the book. I like it, because it's a new O&G book, and i'm a O&G player. But...to me, it seems like...well, as others said...."poor effort"..."lazy work"....and so on. I said it many days ago. This book could be done with a 2 page errata and one WD article adding the spiderrock. Waiting so many years for a book that just repairs the nonsenses of the previous book, creates others (squig hoppers), tweaks some point values (and even "tweak" is telling too much), and adds a pair of USR's in a pair of units....is disappointing. The choppa rule wich everybody seems to enjoy so much and uses to justify all the book and point costs is only useful in charachters with magic weapons, because having choppa with spears, wich cost the same as additional hand weapon and is worse...is useless.

I want to put some emphasis in the idea that it is the 7th edition book, with the erratas that were needed 4 years ago. It's not that a new O&G book was not needed...it's that THIS new book was not needed. It's poor for what a new army book is supposed to be.

Urgat
06-03-2011, 22:15
having choppa with spears, wich cost the same as additional hand weapon and is worse...is useless.

Tell that to the boar riders.

Deon
06-03-2011, 22:22
I think that it is a very good book,
the only minor is the lack of magic items as other people have said.
i think it is a little blow to the uniqeness (hope it is written right) of the army,
and i hope it is not a trent that will go on in the other armybooks,
But i am loving every thing else in this book for sure:)

ihavetoomuchminis
06-03-2011, 22:31
Tell that to the boar riders.

yes...better boar riders is the reason behind the increase in points of the orc boys :p

xxRavenxx
06-03-2011, 22:45
creates others (squig hoppers)

What issue is created with squig hoppers? Have I missed something? Their unit entry reads fine so far as I can tell.


The choppa rule wich everybody seems to enjoy so much and uses to justify all the book and point costs is only useful in charachters with magic weapons, because having choppa with spears, wich cost the same as additional hand weapon and is worse...is useless.

Spear can combine with shields, to provide the same attacks as 2xHW, but with enhanced armor. It serves a purpose for the option to exist, it helps that choppa adds to it, because otherwise it *would* be strictly worse.

Choppa also works for great weapons (wooh!) and for cavalry (as urgat said).


It's poor for what a new army book is supposed to be.

What should a new army book be, exactly? Daemons? No thanks.

The book fixes 95% of the issues from before. Points costs have been fairly changed, and a strong, but not overpowered army is now ready to go for the edition.


*IF* the next 3 books are on the same level of crapstorm as our squiggly chaos friends, then we can complain about getting a bum deal. I stilll hold high hopes that this is a bold move for army books, and an attempt to bring the game into a lovely new era of balance.

ihavetoomuchminis
06-03-2011, 22:57
What issue is created with squig hoppers? Have I missed something? Their unit entry reads fine so far as I can tell.



Spear can combine with shields, to provide the same attacks as 2xHW, but with enhanced armor. It serves a purpose for the option to exist, it helps that choppa adds to it, because otherwise it *would* be strictly worse.

Choppa also works for great weapons (wooh!) and for cavalry (as urgat said).



What should a new army book be, exactly? Daemons? No thanks.

The book fixes 95% of the issues from before. Points costs have been fairly changed, and a strong, but not overpowered army is now ready to go for the edition.


*IF* the next 3 books are on the same level of crapstorm as our squiggly chaos friends, then we can complain about getting a bum deal. I stilll hold high hopes that this is a bold move for army books, and an attempt to bring the game into a lovely new era of balance.

well, the issue with squig hoppers is not a rules issue, it's more than they suck more than before. (enemy hitting against WS2, support attacks with WS2 and S3....).

A new army book should be that.....NEW. Not a fix for a bad previous book. I've played a few games with this new book...and i don't feel like it is new at all, it's like playing with the old book, with the issues fixed. Not enough for me. I'm not talking about power, i'm talking about the feeling. Some of us need new challenges to remain interested.

Dutch_Digger
06-03-2011, 23:15
yes. good book! looks yummy. 10/10! nomnomnomnom

hoppers are ace, they dont suffer animosity like the pesky wolves. I'm gonna use em

xxRavenxx
06-03-2011, 23:55
well, the issue with squig hoppers is not a rules issue, it's more than they suck more than before. (enemy hitting against WS2, support attacks with WS2 and S3....).

A new army book should be that.....NEW. Not a fix for a bad previous book. I've played a few games with this new book...and i don't feel like it is new at all, it's like playing with the old book, with the issues fixed. Not enough for me. I'm not talking about power, i'm talking about the feeling. Some of us need new challenges to remain interested.


Re: Hoppers. Yeah its a shame, but you do save a good number of points now, and can take more than 10 if you want to, so you won't just be wiped out before striking like in the last book. losing your good attacks, while saving a bunch of points is a reasonable tradeoff, and spider riders can live with it... You also gain extra boingy (as rare as it is) and the reroll movement from the hero, who now has a unit to join. I really think they have overall improved. If you want better cavalry, get some boars :) These are the cheap and expendable ones, I think.


Re: New book should be *new*... I disagree. New books should fix things that the edition broke, not replace the army with a new and different army.

ihavetoomuchminis
07-03-2011, 01:05
i agree on the boars. With savage boarboys with shield and spear, we have a cheap cavalry (22 points per model) with a 4+ armour, 6++ ward, and 3 S5 attacks on charge. That's really good for a 22 points cavalry. I'll take several units of 5 boars, probably with music and boss, to use as flankers and hitty units.

You see, i know how to be positive too ^^.

Re: on the "new book" subject, i guess we will disagree always. I don't think we must wait 4 or 5 years to get some "fixes" or "updates" a la Microsoft windows. A new book should offer, IMO, several new challenges and ways of using your units. Not on all the units (the core units should remain more or less the same) , but neither on 1 or 2 (being generous)

Urgat
07-03-2011, 10:59
Second gripe: too much unecessary fluff changes. An exemple, it seems the war altar is not unique anymore (see the story in the wyvern's bestiary entry).


yes...better boar riders is the reason behind the increase in points of the orc boys :p

Obviously: you make boar riders better, you make boyz more expensive and hop! You sell more boar riders :p

DaemonReign
07-03-2011, 12:21
- Couldn't care less about the "quality" of the actual book. If anything, the cover actually feels thicker than the pages inbetween which is sort of disconcerning.

- It's way too soon for me to put my foot down about the rest really. Alot of stuff like cheaper boars and cheaper big'uns are changes that seem surpricingly sensible. In our group we're all hoping for OnG to become a force to be reckoned with - which it hasn't been for years and years going up against DoC, DE etcetera.

- I'm not sure I would call the work "lazy" or "meaningless" but rather it seems the developer has tried to appraoch the subject with taste and humility. A new book should definately feature the Same Basic Army. I think if you're disappointed about this bit you should blame your own expectations rather than GW taking the risk of ruining one of their trademark armies.

- My biggest gripe is that they add the mangler squig (a really good unit stat-wise) and does this without even the slightest rumour of an actual model being released.

- The Best bit about this release is just simply the new Savage-models because we've been moaning for those for years in our group - new book or not.

Wade Wilson
07-03-2011, 12:22
i agree on the boars. With savage boarboys with shield and spear, we have a cheap cavalry (22 points per model) with a 4+ armour, 6++ ward, and 3 S5 attacks on charge. That's really good for a 22 points cavalry. I'll take several units of 5 boars, probably with music and boss, to use as flankers and hitty units.


Add in a level 1 or 2 shaman with that 'magical head thingy' (one of the few items in shiny stuff that looks pretty good) and they go up to a 4+5++. kinda makes them hit like quasi bloodcrushers on a charge (only much much cheaper). Im actualy thinking about a unit of 9-14 + shaman with the head...not sure to give them extra hand weapons for an extra attack or go with the spear and shiled combo...

I am new to 8th ed WHFB so for the past year and a bit i have been playing Daemons (had no idea they were OP, i thought they looked cool)and so wanted to try an army with a bbit moer character. naturaly nothing in the game has more character than an angry greenskin with a big axe picking his nose whilst 'doin some propa stompin' so i had my beady eyes on O&G for a while. I have to say, i really like this book. Perhaps its because im new to greenskins and havnt any previous experience. But coming from a background were i have no warmachines and use the same troops (bloodletters check, daemonettes check, herald with siren song check etc etc) over and over the sheer amount of choice leaves e gobsmacked. Cheap common orcs (yes not as cheap as they used to be im told, but 6 points for a T4 core unit with tonnes of upgrade potions? Nice.), cheap upgrades to big uns, savage orcs, black orcs, cheap boar chariots, cheap rock lobbas, cheap trolls, cheap heroes (and to an extent lords)....sweet orks look ace. Then i come across gobbos and even better. Night gobins with free weapon upgrades, sweet i'll take 50 wih spears, netters a fantatic or too and full command...oh look, i can easily fit another unit like that in my army! Heck theres an option to make a unit of wolf riders BS4 and gain quick fire and stay fast cavalry. I may be reading this wrong but it doesnt seem to say anywere that with light armour and shield upgrades that they lose 'fast cavalry' (unless im missing it in the main brb?) so they are a M9, quick fire, Sv4+ BS4 unit with Gittila in the unit? Nice.

Speaking of which its great to have an army book where the special characters are not OP! Seriously, i have no problem with people using SCs but daemons have a fair few OP and too damn cheap ones that using them almost feels like a slap to your opponents face. I like the rules, stats and (to an extent)the points cost for these guys. Wana try the too gobbo hereos to see how their wolf and spider riders perform as warmachine/skirmisher hunters and flank harassers.

As for the book itself. Yes 22 is expensive, a good 4-5 more than others. But it seems to have been done with care and attention(and its shiny!)with many full colour pics and a durable hardback cover. As a hobbiest i like these ouches. with the economy the way it is everything is going up in price so im glad to be getting a little extra bang for my buck.

As a new player to o&G i am very happy with the armybook and the choices it gives to a new player. My one gripe is that there is not quite enough 'shiny stuff'. I understand that perhaps GW is cutting down on individual army magic items but to me this adds some extra flavour and individuality to an army. sure the main rulebook has several pages of pretty cool and useful items but they dont quite feel orcish enough. The axe and armour are far too exensive to see regular use and the banners arnt particularly good (either cost too much or can only be used for a unit you probs wont have a bsb in unless you have an all night goblin army). the savage orc shaman head thing is pretty cool though since it gives a unit of savage orcs an upgraded 5++.

ihavetoomuchminis
07-03-2011, 12:43
Add in a level 1 or 2 shaman with that 'magical head thingy' (one of the few items in shiny stuff that looks pretty good) and they go up to a 4+5++. kinda makes them hit like quasi bloodcrushers on a charge (only much much cheaper). Im actualy thinking about a unit of 9-14 + shaman with the head...not sure to give them extra hand weapons for an extra attack or go with the spear and shiled combo...


After some thinking, i prefer the spear + shield combo. This way the models are hittier and more resilient. On the head object, i prefer to put it in a savage big'uns horde. But if you are planning to make a big boar unit, then, go for it!

Crovax20
07-03-2011, 13:52
Squig hoppers are a disappointment but I'm still going to field them. Really miffed about them turning into cavalry and thus not having the second rank of squigs attack but only the riders.

So basically it has gone from 15 str 5 ws 4 attacks to 10 str5 ws4 attacks and 10 str3 ws2 attacks.

Still I am going to send them after monsters and the like as they still put on the hurt on those things.

evilsponge
07-03-2011, 18:19
I was really interested in this release since it was the first army book for 8th edition, then I looked at the MSRP for the new models and book and decided to play video games instead

xxRavenxx
07-03-2011, 18:54
If anything, the cover actually feels thicker than the pages

I would hope so :) Can you imagine 3mm thick pages? :D They could engrave the words onto rocks maybe, and we could have a flintstones style book? :)

Da GoBBo
07-03-2011, 19:01
I adore this new book. I mourn the loss of my suicide goblins and his trusty chariot and I must say what happened to snotlings is beyond me. Thirdly it's a shame the Giant hasn't been tweaked to fit this new edition. Great job overall with a lot of subtle and good changes in my opnion.

patchy
07-03-2011, 23:34
i like that ong keep some of their game top craziness for a little more reliability but will greatly miss writing army list with our funky item names.
Bartogs best bashas, imbads giant gnashas etc.

cosy
07-03-2011, 23:43
as said before, i also miss the extensive magic items list, if only for the fluff behind it. for the rest, it is a very good book! :-)
i know it wasn't the question of this poll, but it is also the first o&g army book that i didn't found "boring".
so two thumbs up!!

Tah Kazak Rik
08-03-2011, 00:42
Well thing that I like the most is that Gorbad is actually capable of being an offensive character choice now that he causes D3 Wounds.

Plus the Spider and the Mangler Squig provide excellent Monster choices in addition to the Giant.

Personally some things are great improvements, especially the Choppas applying to everything, even magical weapons.

But the total lack of race specific magic items stinks.

I also think the Magic Lores are great. Then the two Goblin characters make Spider Riders and Wolf Riders excellent units to pick for once.

Overall I would say it is a improvment.

7.5/10

Stinkingyeti
09-03-2011, 08:46
Well i'll likely be picking up my copy of it on the morrow.

Stimpson J Cat
09-03-2011, 09:39
I agree. I think what 7th edition was to 6th edition, the new army book is to the previous (current) army book. It's basically just waggling things a bit so that they fit in better.

I loved the 6th ed book, mostly for the writing. YOu could tell the writers had fun with the book. To me, that was lost in the 7th ed. book. Quite a bit of that spirit seems to have returned in this version. That makes me happy. :D


i like that ong keep some of their game top craziness for a little more reliability but will greatly miss writing army list with our funky item names.
Bartogs best bashas, imbads giant gnashas etc.

That, however is the (one) big disappointment. I loved all those funky items (and the cool despcriptions they had, especially in 6th)

maplesyrup
09-03-2011, 16:57
I like the hard back, often times we keep them open to pages we want, and I find the hardback better suited for this, in that it'll stay, and will last longer under this kind of wear.

I haven't read all the fluff yet, but so far I'd say I like the new book overall. The map is infinitely better than the old ones (i'm a sucker for maps). And many of the changes, such as free upgrades for night gobbos, and the squig herd arrangements, snottlings exploding spores, the magic lores are all ace in my books. The fluff I have read so far such as the Arachnarok and Mangler squigs seems to also have improved since the last edition.

Like most people here my biggest issue is the magic items. Since the new Rulebook has useful though standard list of items (basic stat bonuses and such), I was hoping the armybook would add some unique effects to the table which simply hasn't happened. My biggest grievance of all is in the absence of the Brimstone Bauble, besides being awesome in its ability, it was very unique and so far there is nothing like it at all anymore. Here's to hoping the summer expansion compensates for this...

Urgat
09-03-2011, 17:58
Third gripe of mine against the book: useless rules.
Stuff like the one spore attack for snots (woohoo!) or the impact on triple 6 for hoppers (super woohoo!)? What's the point?
Yeah, all in all, I only have relatively minor criticism. Thing is, the book feels somewhat underwhelming, I just can't put my finger on why it does... Lots of stuff I like, little stuff I really dislike, but, I don't know, something's off.

Okuto
09-03-2011, 18:10
The book is an improvement....but I admit I felt odd paying the price for it. I know two kids who play orcs and cant buy it for another couple of weeks so i photocopied it for them.

Sure it's nice looking.....but to me the pricing is a huge turnoff, I'd rather have a cheaper old format more than the d&d style books. I usually just shove my army books in binders as it saves room and lets me shuffle through easier....I wont be doing that with this book

Malorian
09-03-2011, 18:16
Third gripe of mine against the book: useless rules.
Stuff like the one spore attack for snots (woohoo!) or the impact on triple 6 for hoppers (super woohoo!)? What's the point?
Yeah, all in all, I only have relatively minor criticism. Thing is, the book feels somewhat underwhelming, I just can't put my finger on why it does... Lots of stuff I like, little stuff I really dislike, but, I don't know, something's off.

I like little rule like that. Just allows for that one in a hundred game where it comes up and then you can brag about it later.

Thought it was too bad when they removed the jamming rule from the assault cannon in 40k. Sure you rolled three 1s almost never, and going to four shots it would happen even less, but when it did happen it would make it a game to remember.

And in the end what did it cost you? A tiny bit of room in a book, meaning maybe a slightly smaller picture on that page. Worth it in my eyes.

Urgat
09-03-2011, 18:50
I like little rule like that. Just allows for that one in a hundred game where it comes up and then you can brag about it later.

I kindda agree, but you cannot even say what the odds are to ever get those impacts, three sixes on the turn you make contact? This is beyond anecdotic, the spores are waaaaay more useful as they stand (and they stand at not much).


And in the end what did it cost you? A tiny bit of room in a book, meaning maybe a slightly smaller picture on that page. Worth it in my eyes.

It cost me that they added that useless rule, but at the same time screwed the unit bad. I wish they put a little more thought into their rules, honestly. Because quite frankly, I'm pretty sure they didn't even realize the repercussions of adding riders to the hoppers...

xxRavenxx
09-03-2011, 19:00
but you cannot even say what the odds are to ever get those impacts

Once in every 216 compulsary movement phases, while not dead or in combat :)

If you assume that is 3 turns per game, then by game 500, you statistically should have seen it happen. (Standard deviation and all that).

I think it could easily have been 2x6s show up and they bounce, without making them powerful.

DaemonReign
09-03-2011, 19:03
Thirdly it's a shame the Giant hasn't been tweaked to fit this new edition. Great job overall with a lot of subtle and good changes in my opnion.

Well it does kill automatically in a lot of instances where it used to just cause one wound - not to mention the "put in sack" bit where you no longer get the bagged guys back when the giant goes down.

But.. Yeah.. It's still not a great choice for the army I agree.. Naturally "better" but far from great. A shooting magnet. Something for the opponant to worry about more than he has reason for.

Avian
09-03-2011, 19:06
I like little rule like that. Just allows for that one in a hundred game where it comes up and then you can brag about it later.
I hate one-in-a-hundre-battles rules, I always forget them. :mad:

BigbyWolf
09-03-2011, 19:10
To be honest, I'd rather have less items in the book then have lots of ones made up with pointlessly pointless names of pointlessness.

For those that may have missed it, I'm talking about:

Krumpas Krumping Krumper of Krumpage

and all the ones like that from 6th edition.

There were a few interesting combos in 7th edition, but I tend to base my armies around the troops, not the items I can take for them.

Considering that with the new BRB we actually have MORE items then were available in 7th, I really don't see what the problem is?

If it's a "fluff" issue, just take the Ogreblade and call it something suitably Orcy. Problem solved, with the help of a little imagination.

Da GoBBo
09-03-2011, 19:27
I loved the 6th ed book, mostly for the writing. YOu could tell the writers had fun with the book. To me, that was lost in the 7th ed. book.

:eek: You obviously never read pre-6th armybooks. When it comes to fluff, 6th ed books were a disaster. Some of the fluff (Gorbad and Grom) in this new book came from the 5th ed. book I think.


The map is infinitely better than the old ones (i'm a sucker for maps).

I share the sentiment, and have also spend a lot of time drooling over this new map allready.

Malorian
09-03-2011, 19:35
I hate one-in-a-hundre-battles rules, I always forget them. :mad:

I find it the other way.

The Necron c'tan has a rule that when hit by a phase sword it just gets absorbed into him.

There is only model with that, one particular assassin...

And you can bet I just can't wait to use that rule :p

Daklathen
09-03-2011, 19:50
Has anyone thought of just using the items from the 6th/7th ed books in friendly games? I know my group wouldn't mind at all. Granted, you couldn't do that for tourney play, but, that isn't why I play fantasy.

Even if you added 10 points to the cost of using old magic items, it would still be cheaper than the 8 options we have now.

xxRavenxx
09-03-2011, 19:51
Well it does kill automatically in a lot of instances where it used to just cause one wound - not to mention the "put in sack" bit where you no longer get the bagged guys back when the giant goes down.

All of the "pick up and..." entries now kill the model I believe.

That said, When did the giant ever let models come back to life when he died?

People mention this over and over, and it wasnt the case in the orc book, nor the chaos book.

Avian
09-03-2011, 20:21
Considering that with the new BRB we actually have MORE items then were available in 7th, I really don't see what the problem is?
To give you a summary, in case you missed the 150 times it's been mentioned thus far:
1) The O&G are about FUN.
2) The items in the rulebook are DULL.

BigbyWolf
09-03-2011, 20:30
To give you a summary, in case you missed the 150 times it's been mentioned thus far:
1) The O&G are about FUN.
2) The items in the rulebook are DULL.

I get the OnG being fun, it's one of the reasons I love 'em. I guess the magic items were just the icing on the cake for me. I didn't really use too many of the wacky things they had on a regular basis for their disappearance to bother me that much, that's probably why I don't get all the fuss.

Urgat
09-03-2011, 20:36
Has anyone thought of just using the items from the 6th/7th ed books in friendly games?

Yes, but I won't do that. I can justify it any way I want, if I wanna take, say, the staff of sneaky stealing, it's ultimately because of an advantage it gives me. A rules advantage, that is. So I'm not going to ask permission to use it any more than I'll ask to be allowed to use the 6th ed goblins (that cost 2pts). I asked if I could give my shamans spider mounts in case I wanted to play an all spider army, though. I haven't thought about unfair advantages it could gove me, no doubt some will find crazy stuff, but it's obvious (to me and my pals at least) that it's an acceptable fluff decision.
In the same order of idea, i'm kindda tempted to ask if I can use the 6th ed squig herders. There's no real benefit to them, they cost more after all, they're totally unreliable, it's just I find they were way more fun to use. But honestly I'm pretty sure I won't do that anyway, it's just a nice idea to toy with.

Spiney Norman
09-03-2011, 21:28
2. external balancing
i think they did a very bad job on this. point costs went up. many players who are currently happy with some of the new gimmicks will soon realise, that their old army will cost MORE points now. orcs became more expensive, NG became more expensive and characters and command groups got more expensive. your army will shrink in size, if you want to add any of the new stuff.

it is rather difficult to evaluate the new animosity, but i expect that a forced charge against the closest enemy will still cause problems quite often.

the loss of magic defence is a serious problem for low ini and low strength units and characters. this can t be compensated by a little more magic offence.

ps: there is no suitable option in the poll for my opinion.

"External balancing"??? is that a joke, you wanted the first 8th Edition book to be all about balancing it with ALL the existing 7th Edition armies? Sorry but the better thing to do would be to set a precedent for 8th edition and working within the new, and significantly different ruleset and then sticking to that precedent for all the remaining 8E books. Whether they will or not remains to be seen.

ihavetoomuchminis
09-03-2011, 21:54
yes...because GW is so fast renewing army books, and some books like skavens, DoC or Dark elves won't be around more than 1 year...right?

Storak
09-03-2011, 22:17
"External balancing"??? is that a joke, you wanted the first 8th Edition book to be all about balancing it with ALL the existing 7th Edition armies? Sorry but the better thing to do would be to set a precedent for 8th edition and working within the new, and significantly different ruleset and then sticking to that precedent for all the remaining 8E books. Whether they will or not remains to be seen.

yes, new books of course have to be balanced against the old 7th edition books, because those are the books that they will mostly play against, over the next 4 years!!!
at least up to about mid-edition, there simply isn t anything else that you can balance against.

IF Games Workshop was planning to do big changes to the game, they should think about a solution. this should at least be an attempt or an option to keep things balanced.

for example if the plan was: "we want to reduce magic items to the list in the main rule book. army books will only contain expensive and useless items for some minor variety"
GW should do the following: let 3 developers go over the army book, pick out the 10 most useless items from the books, and add 50 points to the cost. then they should post this list on the internet, as an option to balance games until all the army books are out.
players could decide whether they want to use this "8th edition magic items lists", or play with the books as they are printed. player feedback would improve those lists fast. (i seriously doubt that GW could figure out which items were the most useless)

and GW could notice from feedback, that players don t really like this design decision. then they could change it to a limited number of useful and funny items. (and they could post an optional renewed list for O&G, of course!)

Tokamak
09-03-2011, 22:19
I hate prominent amounts of magic items, but I don't like the change because now my army which is light on magic items is less speziul.


GW should do the following: let 3 developers go over the army book, pick out the 10 most useless items from the books, and add 50 points to the cost. then they should post this list on the internet, as an option to balance games until all the army books are out.

That only works with buffs. Optional nerfs simply don't work because people will go with whatever is the strongest. On Da Path we already had a few people advocating the 7th edition because their O&G army would be stronger that way.

Shimmergloom
09-03-2011, 22:36
I wouldn't be surprised to see a magic item expansion coming out in the next year or 2 to expand on the common list.

That's probably the real reason for screwing orcs like this.

They'll release a box set with card versions of all the common items from the main rulebook, plus a bunch of new ones. They'll charge you threw the nose for it too.

They released 2 box sets that included new magic items in 4th and 5th(I think idol of gork may have had some too). 3 if you count that realms of chaos box set.

Stinkingyeti
15-03-2011, 10:09
I love the book. I picked it up a week ago roughly, haven't had a huge chance to read through it all, good old real life chewing up that much time these days.

But i love the feel of it, the flavour. It's hard to describe what it is specifically, but it just genuinely feels to me like it gives off a good sense of the orcs and goblins.

Da GoBBo
15-03-2011, 11:13
yes, new books of course have to be balanced against the old 7th edition books, because those are the books that they will mostly play against, over the next 4 years!!!
at least up to about mid-edition, there simply isn t anything else that you can balance against.

But this book IS balanced againts 7th edition armybooks. 7th ed. O&G performed quiet well in the 8th ed. rulesset. No "toptier", no "bottomtier" either; they are somewhere in the middle and I think slightly above the middle. This book is no different in that regard but it does allow for even more variaty in listbuilding. How much more balanced do you want it?

Mr_Foulscumm
15-03-2011, 11:27
The hard back thing is awsome but the 22 price hike is a sneaky money grabbing trick.

I don't know... I'd rather pay a little more to finally get proper bindings. The amount of ABs and Cs (:D) that I've had to repair because the pages fall out is just sad and very very annoying. :mad:

Love the look of the new book, like the fact that there is more to read and actually NEW art work :eek:

I miss the Magic Items being gone... and I am slightly worried that GW might give this idea up as soon as Mat Ward makes a new AB... time will tell.

Over all, I think it's pretty good.

Da GoBBo
15-03-2011, 11:32
I miss the Magic Items being gone... and I am slightly worried that GW might give this idea up as soon as Mat Ward makes a new AB... time will tell.

And we will probably see it soon enough anyway. Tomb Kings are comming up and I can see them have a lot of magic items as they should have, considering how they function. Oh I can't wait for all the ranting on our part when that happens :rolleyes:. Ogre Kingdoms are probably next after Tomb Kings, so I think we will have to wait for that book and see if the lack of items is a new trend.

Fobster
15-03-2011, 12:30
The army is now pretty brutally hamstrung by lack of a competitive magic phase. Missing the totem and staff of stealing we're really vulnerable to the battle rule book lores. Especially with such a low initiative, your sweeping masses of now quite expensive troops off the board from dwelllers and such. With magic being so powerful we're pretty gimp.

Harwammer
15-03-2011, 13:06
I'm glad MST and Staff of Sneaky Stealing are gone. I felt they were massive crutches in 8th that allowed OnG to ignore all but IF spells. Having been on both sides of this magic defence I can say the game is much more fun when both sides get to use the wizards they spent 100s of points on instead of the one that spent an extra 50 on an overwhelming magic defence. 50 points should stop a couple of spells rather than almost every spell not cast on IF.

Besides, it's not like OnG didn't get anything to make up for the loss in 8th. The goblin lore attribute combined with the new mushrooms makes for tough decisions as an opponent!

Fobster
15-03-2011, 13:13
By tough decisions you mean whether to take lore of death or lore of shadow?

Harwammer
15-03-2011, 13:32
Haha, in honesty I did snipe the night goblin shaman with spirit leach last game to stop him from stealing all my dispel dice and casting fix it on me, maybe you have a point? :p

However, this did mean I wasn't going after the general or BSB which meant his trolls held a charge from my minotaurs + gorebull which REALLY helped him out.

Prior to that I also let through a goblin hex that turned one of my DD into a PD meaning I wasn't able to stop Foot of Gork on my other minotaur + gorebull unit (minotaurs drop like giant flies to str 6 multiple wounds).

Perhaps I made the wrong decisions? Despite having generated purple sun, secured both flanks and killing his artillery by my turn 2 I still managed to loose about 1800-800 in a 2.5k game against orcs. Megafail. To be fair I was hoping to generate DoomyDarky not PurpleSun on my level 4.

itcamefromthedeep
15-03-2011, 16:46
Somehow the Orks managed to stay Orky after losing animosity. Surely the same could work for Orcs.

After all, the Greenskin army book should be about fun, and there were few rules more lame than animosity. Not once did I walk away from a game with or against Greenskins in 7th or 8th with the feeling that animosity improved the game.

I still haven't seen the book, but as far as I'm concerned it tripped right out the gate in terms of mechanics. It'll have a lot of work to do to sell me on the joys of wearing the animositross around my neck.

Harwammer
15-03-2011, 16:59
I've not looked at my 2nd edition Orks book for quite some time but I don't remember them having animosity in the codex... nor in Codex Imperialisis... Was Ork animosity in 40k a Rogue Trader thing? Cos that really was a different game both in fluff and rules.

Personally I like the thrill of rolling the animosity dice (it's even more thrilling when it's the opponent rolling ones though!)

Braad
15-03-2011, 18:44
To give you a summary, in case you missed the 150 times it's been mentioned thus far:
1) The O&G are about FUN.
2) The items in the rulebook are DULL.

QFT.

I've yet to play my first game with the new book, but yesterday I tried to make a list for an upcoming battle. I thought all-goblin would be cool, so I started to put stuff together. After gathering all common gobs, including 3 lord choices, I still came up 300 points short of 2000. So, I took a look at how to equip my characters. Well, in the end I took a bunch of items from the BRB, and none from the armybook. I really couldn't figure out what would be usefull or worth the price. That's no fun, if you ask me!

Either they are too expensive, unusable (3 banners which are all BSB only) or just don't do it for me... And there's just one item that can be carried by a (not BSB) big boss, which happens to be only really usefull against dwarves!

And I miss the ironback boar. Got a model made for it, now it's gone :(


Otherwise, I think the book is quite okay. Prices rises and cuttings where I would expect them, animosity a little bit less annoying (the only really annoying thing for me was when you could make a very abvious charge and couldn't because of a squabble). And cool new units!

Ronin[XiC]
15-03-2011, 18:47
the +1attack+1strength +Ap is absolutely fine. 50 points is exactly what the item is worth. Add in the extra (free) bonus thing against dwarfs and you have a good item.

All items except for the banners are fine. They aren't brilliant but useful.
Haven't played with the new book so far but in my first game I'll use the Amour and the shrunkenhead.

Malorian
15-03-2011, 18:50
I use the battleaxe of the last waaagh and it didn't disappoint.

Probably was overkill but it let my general rip up his general and give me the win in blood and glory.


What are peoples thoughts on regular goblins?

I was at first loving the idea of finally using them but was put off by 1) there being no handweapons in the box, and 2) having to pay for spears unlike night goblins.

Lorcryst
15-03-2011, 19:31
I have to disagree on the banners, at least the Night Goblin one, stubborn + difficult terrain test + light cover is pretty nice in my Night Goblin horde, and 50 points seems about right for that.

Avian
15-03-2011, 20:48
What are peoples thoughts on regular goblins?
Meh. Still outperformed by Night Goblins. At 3.5 pts, a Common Goblin with spear and light armour is essentially identical to a 3 pt Night Goblin with a spear and shield, they can't get nets to be a useful tarpit unit and Skulkers don't measure up to Fanatics in terms of being a deterrent or damage output. :shifty:


With regards to the magic items, I think the 50 pt axe is okay on a fighter lord and the Shrunken Head can be useful in a large unit of Savages with a Big Boss or two (on the subject of Savages, why the bleep is the Warboss 25 pts more expensive for no actual gain?).

Nothing else can be made to be useful, it's all junk.

Malorian
15-03-2011, 20:52
on the subject of Savages, why the bleep is the Warboss 25 pts more expensive for no actual gain?

It's because they should have been that much all along.

Remember when I told people that +1 attack and a 6+ ward was a crazy deal for 5 points, well now the golden age is over and we are actually paying for it.

ihavetoomuchminis
15-03-2011, 20:55
you can always fit a common orc warboss in a savage orc unit. If it's your general, you are going to equip some 4+ ward save on it anyway. And 1 attack more....well...i don't mind.

I like the night goblin standard.

But as the "what's new today" says.......the banners are useless...you have spells that do the same.

Avian
15-03-2011, 20:58
Remember when I told people that +1 attack and a 6+ ward was a crazy deal for 5 points
No, but I could figure that out for myself. :p

Frenzy and a 6+ Ward is NOT worth 35 pts, though, especially since you are probably replacing the Ward with something better anyway and therefore paying 35 pts for Frenzy. :mad:

Malorian
15-03-2011, 21:03
No, but I could figure that out for myself. :p

Frenzy and a 6+ Ward is NOT worth 35 pts, though, especially since you are probably replacing the Ward with something better anyway and therefore paying 35 pts for Frenzy. :mad:

Items that give +1 attack range in the 20 point range and a 6+ ward is 15 points.

The +1 attack is better than frenzy as the odds of your warboss losing a combat are less, and 6+ ward is even better since you can synergize with the shrunken head.


I'd say he's spot on now, so I find myself not taking him in order to just save points overall.

TheSanityAssassin
15-03-2011, 21:08
Not terribly thrilled with it. Seems to highlight my problems with 8th. Lack of characterful magic items, simplification of things (though animosity does look better) and a focus on big silly monsters and foolish things over tactics. Thumbs down from me, but that's largely my feeling on much of the edition.

Avian
15-03-2011, 21:17
Items that give +1 attack range in the 20 point range and a 6+ ward is 15 points.
Given that next to nobody buys those items for those prices, it should be fairly clear that the price is too high.



The +1 attack is better than frenzy as the odds of your warboss losing a combat are less, and 6+ ward is even better since you can synergize with the shrunken head.
Any advantage from synergising with the Shrunken Head should be built into the cost of the magic item since that is optional and the warpaint isn't. By your reasoning, the 6+ ward is worse since it doesn't synergise with, say, the Armour of Destiny.

Malorian
15-03-2011, 21:23
Given that next to nobody buys those items for those prices, it should be fairly clear that the price is too high.

And yet people pay 60 points for +3 attacks or 45 for a 4+ ward, which is the same ratio of point to reward. (Ok the math is a bit off for the scaling of wards but you get what I'm saying.)

GW seems to have decided that an attack is worth 20 and a 6+ ward if worth 15. +1 attack might be best done with a simple extra handweapon but having the +1 attack built in when you want to take a different weapon can be nice too.



Any advantage from synergising with the Shrunken Head should be built into the cost of the magic item since that is optional and the warpaint isn't. By your reasoning, the 6+ ward is worse since it doesn't synergise with, say, the Armour of Destiny.

You don't put ward gear on a savage orc. Wasting the 6+ save is wasteful like you said. On the flip side however he makes offensive weapons even better :D

Da GoBBo
15-03-2011, 21:45
Given that next to nobody buys those items for those prices, it should be fairly clear that the price is too high.

True, I'd rather have a great axe.

Ronin[XiC]
15-03-2011, 21:57
Savage Orc Warboss is still not worth it. I'd always go for a common Orc and give him a nice 4+ wardsave for almost the same amount of points...
Frenzy can suck balls... overrunning into a position you don't want to be is just plain stupid.

BO are, as unit upgrades the best choice but almost twice as expensive as a normal orc :(

Orc: 100
Savage: 120
BO: 130
As an Index not points!

Avian
15-03-2011, 21:59
GW seems to have decided that an attack is worth 20 and a 6+ ward if worth 15.
Well, that doesn't mean they are right. :p

Malorian
15-03-2011, 22:03
Well, that doesn't mean they are right. :p

Can't argue that :)

sulla
16-03-2011, 05:16
I'm hoping all future books aspire to about this power level. They are a good battle for my beasts and my dark elves can bring the units that are worthless vs the standard no-brainer 'all-s5 or artillery' dwarf or WoC armies I've been facing since the start of 8th.

Magic seems pretty good, big uns and black orcs are decent in combat, and they have some ranged potential but not powerful enough to encourage all-out gunlines. My impression is a fairly challenging army to master with lots of different buildstyles.

Mutter
16-03-2011, 17:05
Given that next to nobody buys those items for those prices, it should be fairly clear that the price is too high.


People only don't buy those, because then they can't use better magic weapons or gret weapons.
If you were to give fighter characters the ability to purchase +1 A without it coming out of their allotment for magic items and without it impeding on choice of items, a lot of characters would make use of that.

The ward is too expensive, though ...

Spiney Norman
16-03-2011, 17:08
on the subject of Savages, why the bleep is the Warboss 25 pts more expensive for no actual gain?

"No actual gain"??? You ignore the only downside of frenzy on a successful Ld9 test which you will most likely be able to reroll if failed and that is no gain?

Frenzy got a LOT better in 8E, and this is their first chance to alter pts costs, I think we can expect anything frenzied to increase in pts by a fair bit this edition.

Lars Porsenna
16-03-2011, 21:46
I just picked up the book a couple of days ago. As far as the survey is concerned, I picked indifferent. I play a very narrow themed Night Goblin army (which apparently everyone does, though I don't see too many locally!), and as far as that is concerned, there were some good developments (characters on giant squig can join hoppers, manger squig, etc), and some not as good developments (costs of command and IIRC netters going up), but a lot stayed the same.

One thing I will mention, I've been reading the fluff section, and I think the background material reads pretty good, and have been enjoying it.

Damon.

Ratbeast
19-03-2011, 09:46
Only just got my book, set out is good, back ground more or less a copy from the old book, magic items list is the biggest problem i have with the book, only 1 item i would even consider using, and even then, i would need a savage shaman to do so... Started collecting orcs a few months back and still undecided if i should continue!!! :(

Pricing of some units/characters could of been much better, all the specials, except maybe gimgor seem a bit over priced for what they do, not worth taking a savage or black orc big boss, upgrade from normal boss shouldnt cost that much.

Cavalry even though cheaper, could of improved a bit more, still not really a good choice, sure they have there purpose but are easily out shined by infantry. Reduction in some of the old units is nice, like river trolls etc, big monsters in the list blows, love the spider (awesome model) but the cost doesnt do it justice, too many other things are far better.

Still on the fence though

Stinkingyeti
19-03-2011, 11:40
So i played my first game today in like 6 years, it was a pretty rough list, probably not entirely accurate with regards to army composition but it was a friendly game so we were fine with that.

It was good fun, my poor level 4 orc shaman turned out to be woeful, never successfully casting a spell and getting caught in an animosity unit as well. However the magic item he took did kill the empire wizard when he used 5 casting dice and had them rebound on him.

It was an allied game, me with orcs and my ally with goblins vs empire and chaos. My ally sent a fanatic through my orc unit to hit the chaos sorc on the other side, which killed him and only killed 2 orcs.

Was a good game, i'm happy with the new book. A bit disappointed about the item list, but the rest of the book i'm good with.

Gilbert Gosseyn III
19-03-2011, 13:07
I really like the new book. Personally I'm a little disappointed about one or two units (Squig Hoppers are useless at most, and Snotlings cost too much) but overall I think it's ok. Cheap troops, heavy core infantry (think of Savage Orcs), interesting special options. About magic items, well, I don't think they could be simply classified as "4fun" items, since Lucky Shrunken Head and Mork's Banner are just... broken (ward save 5+ like the average Demon for 50 points is good, and the ability to shut down every opponent's magic item is just priceless). The other objects are just good, you only have to find a way to maximize their effect (think of a Goblin Big Boss on wolf chariot with Armour of Gork, that's 2d6+1 impact hits relatively cheap and killy with the advantage of using one single model so you can effectively charge on a corner, or Battleaxe of the last Waaagh! which is, yes, VERY costly but overkill, and banners are good if put in the right unit, think of a NG hordestar with Bad Moon banner of Spider banner on Spider cavalry - actually the spider is better than the gobbo on it so I'd just go with a single rank of 10 models, that is just good). Magic is fine, not overkill, very balanced. I'm really satisfied with this book, I couldn't ask for a better one ^^

Shimmergloom
19-03-2011, 14:22
goblin big boss + chariot + armor of gork = 185pts minimum for 2d6 +1 impact hits(it is an argument whether this is even legal). It's not legal since you wrote big boss. I'll assume you meant warboss. That makes it 215pts.

3 goblin chariots = 150pts for 3d6 + 3 impact hits. More wounds and more attacks in combat.