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View Full Version : Coming back to W40k - Army Choices/Questions



DarkBarb
16-02-2011, 10:36
After playing Warhammer 40k a number of years ago I've made a decision to come back fresh, start a new army - and fall in love with the sport again :).

Back in the day I fielded both a IG and Tau army, but as those are long gone - and figured I wanted to try something new, however I have a few questions in regards to Army choice and Rules.

I am currently tossing up between a Tyranid or Necron Army.

1. Been doing some brief reading over the last few days, and can see ALOT has changed haha - the Rules and Codexs will just require me to re-read and learn them, but what has me confused are these 'Expansions'.

Is this simiular to a game where all Expansions must be purchased before had, or simply another choice for players to say I play Warhammer 40k: 'x' - from the looks of it Apoc is for players wanting to field a Army larger than 2500pts - the rest look like mini-games?

2. I'm in no way a PRO painter, but from what I can see Necron are pretty straightforward - how much MORE difficult are Tyranids - my concern is their 'Armour' (Carapace). Is it difficult to get in there and have finer details?

3. I've heard rumors that both Armys will be reciveing some sort of 'facelift' through Rules/Models in the coming yeah - as I have never experienced a '2nd wave' first hand, would it be wise of me to hold off on purchasing my Army until these updates are released? Or is it simply new models/rules and as simple as adding these new models into a pre-existing Army?

4. Lasyly, a horror that plagued me back in the old days was the fact that when you are building you're models, the selection of 'Upgrades/Weaponary' always played a large role - its not as simple as erasing it and simply re-drawing, its glued in place and painted.

Has anything happened in regards to rules/models over the years? Or is it still simply a matter of re-purchasing a model and re-arming them? Do either of these Army side on being easier to achieve the above?

I'm sorry for such a long post, just wanted to make my comeback as smooth as possible :).

- DB

Simo429
16-02-2011, 10:43
Learn to magnetise if you are worried about number 4 although on a necron army I don't think its really an issue, I can send you a link to a magnetising article I wrote if you want.

Dux
16-02-2011, 10:48
1.
You don't need the expansions. They just bring some additional missions. Rulebook and Codex are all you need.
2.
Necrons are quite easy to paint. Depending on your chosen colours.
Tyranids are a bit harder to paint. Everthing is organic.
3.
Necrons will get new rules and models late this year or early 2012.
Tyranids were rumored to get new models but no rules this summer. Don't know whether this is still true.
4.
Necrons don't have much choice with their current codex. You can't do anything wrong with them. But that might change with the new codex.
Tyranids have alot of choices on their big bugs.

Firmlog
16-02-2011, 11:16
1. answered already.

2. Necrons easy to paint. I did mine in a brass metallic and green ceramic. Took about 2 months to fully paint the army. No drybushing, used a metallic spray primer, black focused wash and mythril lining. Ceramic takes a little longer but doable and you can cut some corners.
Tyranids, fastest army to paint yet. I did a earthtone nid army. Almost exclusively drybrushed in a month for commission. And I believe I am a slow painter. I have some ideas for painting nids, if I ever do my own army.

3. With the possibility of new rules in the fall, or 2012 9I've heard fall) some models units may change organization/effectiveness new models will likely be added. Some probable wargear changes. Fairly standard orgaization, but may get full revamp to bring in line with current codex's.

Tyranids good for at least 2-3 years, they usually seem to get 2 codex's an edition, we'll see. They may go the whole edition without change. They are missing a few "monsterous" units and special characters, some may be key units, I just don't know. Tyranid builds, tend to change radically between codex's in both organization and "wargear" options.

4. Same as above for necrons, though I believe you can build them wrong.
Tyranids seem to have one similar build (between players, local meta) right now and a reliance on special characters.

DarkBarb
16-02-2011, 12:32
I just wanted to thank you for the great responses so far - so happy to find an active community that knows their stuff :).

@Simo429: Would love that guide - is that how most people do things these days?

1. Ah excellent, that explains alot - do most GW stores on 'Games Night' still play the original, or is it worth investing in these Expansions once I have the original rules downpat?

2. Been looking over some Tyranid paint schemes, they look extremly exciting, which normally means they are initially harder to paint but have a greater outcome.

4. So if I'm understanding this correct, normal Troop Tyranids/Necrons don't change much, its moreso the larger models that I could fall into trouble if I don't think about my Army List ahead of time?

As its my first time playing either, I'm just concerned about going ahead and building an Army list under the assumption it will be stuck in stone in regards to gluing particular 'Upgrades/Weapons' on.

Cheers,
- Barb

Ravariel
16-02-2011, 13:18
1) Doing Cities of Death, Planetstrike or Apoc are fairly rare, but dependent on local meta. Talk to the players in your area to find out what the environment is like. Here we do a lot of Battle Mission book stuff in order to challenge our tactics rather than simply challenging our list-building. Choosing the mission after we have locked our lists, natch.

2) Tyranids are generally more forgiving of new painters, with large-area washes and dry-brushes being the order of the day. You rarely have to worry about "coloring outside the lines" like for armies with complex armor and filligree (see: smarines, eldar, chaos, etc). That said, Necrons are about as easy as you can get, with simple schemes looking really good.

4) Yes. Nids actually have a second level of troop (those with the warrior chassis) that are actually more difficult in this respect. You need to have the entire unit (bar one, usually) equipped the same, and can vary that rather dramatically. The big fellas are pretty easy to magnetize so it's not much of a problem, but magnetizing a large number of warriors can be a pain. The only model in the Necron list that has any real variability is the Necron Lord... and eventually you'll probably want at least two versions of him: on walking, one with a destroyer body. Beyond that, the weapon/orb/phylactory loadout may be a tough choice depending on your playstyle. This of course is subject to change when the new codex drops in the next year or so.

Also, most people won't mind if you say your Lord has a warscythe if it's not modeled or if you want to play your warriors as dual boneswords and Talons instead of the modeled rending claws and Devourers (just as a f'rinstance). Hell, do a bunch of playtesting with no arms and you can decide pretty soon which version suits your playstyle, and put the right arms on later :p . And honestly, breaking off arms and putting new ones on isn't really that difficult (just use regular super glue, not the GW plastic glue).

Best o' luck!

The Orange
16-02-2011, 14:03
Regarding 4.
Nid's bio-weapons seem like they can change somewhat between editions but not to a great extent as I remember it. There were some radical changes with the newest 'nid codex though, as the carnifex went from being a super star to being super lame as most 'nid players seem to put it. Magnets are your friend here (as it may be beneficial to change loadouts from game to game) but I don't think you'd be in too much trouble gluing on a favored build. But I think the big things in your army like the Tyrant and carnifex may be places where you might want to test out some new hobby skills (aka magnetizing).

Necrons have had only one real codex. Their quite overdue for an update, so while they haven't changed at all in the past it's hard to say just how much of what they are now will translate into their next iteration. I mean I think it's safe to say that what they have in their current line will probably work fine with their next codex (I don't really see GW re-cutting and adding to the Necron Warrior sprue), more likely you'd just have to buy some new stuff to add to your army when the next codex came out.

(another thing to keep in mind though is that the Necron codex IS old, while the Tyranids codex is new-er, I'm not sure how competitive Necrons are considered now, so you might want to look into that too)

Chem-Dog
16-02-2011, 14:16
Back in the day I fielded both a IG and Tau army, but as those are long gone - and figured I wanted to try something new

IG has changed in a few crucial ways, it can be played in varying alternative ways than it used to, don't write them off in favour of taking something "different".


1. Been doing some brief reading over the last few days, and can see ALOT has changed haha - the Rules and Codexs will just require me to re-read and learn them, but what has me confused are these 'Expansions'.

All of the expansions fiddle with what you can take in your army but they never invalidate or add units, you'll just find yourself able to take different forces. don't worry about them UNTIL you've got yourself a viable army as these variations tend to favour ownership of multiple, otherwise redundant units.


from the looks of it Apoc is for players wanting to field a Army larger than 2500pts - the rest look like mini-games?

Apocalypse is not 40k, it uses most of the rules and background but does not suit pick up games and, depending on game size will take a day or two to finish. Really don't sweat Apoc.
Planetstrike hugely alters the FOC and can take ages to play as it favours larger forces, it also helps to have a fair amount of specialist terrain, again sweat it not.
Spearhead also messes with the FOC and is written for people who want bona fide tank battles, so you can have (I hessitate to say need) an army made entierly of armoured squadrons, because of this the game usually needs a little bit of planning and favours larger battles don't worry about spearhead but do check it out on the GW website because it has the unique advantage of being entirely free.
Cities of Death is a little redundant now as the rules changes it brought about have been almost entirely subsumed into 40K's main rules although there are a few bits of fun to be had from mixing and matching stratagems. CoD requires some suitable terrain to make the most of it BUT this isn't difficult to find as a majority of 40K specific terrain suits.

Basically, nobody's going to spring Apoc/Planetstrike/Spearhead on you because they require a little bit of extra planning/time/space to work properly.


2. I'm in no way a PRO painter, but from what I can see Necron are pretty straightforward - how much MORE difficult are Tyranids - my concern is their 'Armour' (Carapace). Is it difficult to get in there and have finer details?

It does depend entierly about how much you want to put into it, it's commonly held that Necrons simply need spraying black and a heavy silver drybrush to make them ready, pick a different colour and Tyranids can be completed just as easily. the key is to find a pleasing colour scheme and stick to it, two contrasting but complementary colours is plenty to have a unified looking horde.


3. I've heard rumors that both Armys will be reciveing some sort of 'facelift' through Rules/Models in the coming yeah - as I have never experienced a '2nd wave' first hand, would it be wise of me to hold off on purchasing my Army until these updates are released? Or is it simply new models/rules and as simple as adding these new models into a pre-existing Army?

Firstly, a 2nd wave is generally term we use for a release of models/kits that comes a short while after the release of a Codex, what you're tanking about with Necrons is a new Codex which would form it's 1st wave (complete with, typically, a handful of plastic and metal kits). Tyranids have a recently released codex but nothing that can be considered a 2nd wave has yet been seen OR even rumoured to be coming, personally I believe this is largely to do with the nature of the models yet to be released, which are mostly larger monsters somewhere between the Carnifex and Trygon in size (hense the interest in the Orc and Goblins Arachnarok for WHFB).
So, yes Necrons will eventually be getting a new book and facelift but it's sketchy when as the release has reportedly been set back. 'Nids are good to go now but some options will not be supported by current models.


4. Lasyly, a horror that plagued me back in the old days was the fact that when you are building you're models, the selection of 'Upgrades/Weaponary' always played a large role - its not as simple as erasing it and simply re-drawing, its glued in place and painted.

This applies for all armies but 99% of people I know tend to throw in their lot with one particular format, specific units that pick one setup over another and just run with those (often helped by the role a unit has on the tabletop), for example many IG players will pick an army that mainly uses one type of heavy weapon (Autocannons or Missile launchers, for example), Marine players will build a Devestator squad that fulfils a specific battlefield role concentrating on the destruction of one type of target over others and so on. This isn't much different for Tyranids and is largely redundant for Necrons (who only have a couple of units that can change their weaponry). With larger monsters you can Magnetise but may find this is utterly unecessary, as the specific role you have in mind for your big guys means that you'll run them with the same set up 90% of the time.


Has anything happened in regards to rules/models over the years? Or is it still simply a matter of re-purchasing a model and re-arming them? Do either of these Army side on being easier to achieve the above?

As I said briefly above, a vast majority of Necron units have no upgrade/weapon options to speak of so are, by default easier to use in this single particular regard. Only the Lord has a wealth of options.


Hope you get the answers you're after, and Welcome back. :)

DarkBarb
17-02-2011, 06:01
Overwhelmed by the response and help I have gotten. Have read through all of the replies, and all have been taken to heart.

Want to try and pop out this weekend and buy my new 'gear' (Rule Book, Codex, Paints etc) but have heard some pretty horrid reports about the Tyranid Battleforce being overpriced/crap for a starter - was wondering if anyone could suggest what I should grab first, something I will use no matter what Army List I field.

On that note, was wondering if someone could help me put together a beginners/starters Tyranid Army List, for the sole purpose of me not going out and purchasing the wrong Models, and so when I begin modelling, don't screw up the various 'Upgrades/Weaponry' attachments.

Would like to have an 'all-rounder' Army (I know the Veterans must shudder everytime a novice comes in here and says they want something to kill EVERYBODY) but basically I'll be looking at;

- Playing casually on 'Games Night' at my local GW stores, hopefully building up, learning the rules again so I can progress to more 'Tournament' based games.

- As I am completely new to Tyranid's, I really don't have a preference in respect to Gameplay, or Units I want to take advantage of, so suggest away :).

Cheers,
- DB
-

Firmlog
17-02-2011, 11:38
For starters you will need a hive tyrant. One is good, you will probably get 2 eventually. I like the tyrant guard models, though I haven't seen anyone playing them.

For elites I would start off with about 1-3 zoanthropes, they can be purchased individually or in squads (ingame). They are the tyranids best ranged anti tank. at least 1 to start.

For troops I'd start off with a termigant brood, especially if you want to run a tervigon. I would. maybe 2. a box of genestealers is also good, and they add some CC punch.

For heavy the carnifex is a good buy, I think. The tervigon is a carnifex of some sort I believe, but you will need to convert if you want it to acurately represent them. A mawlock or whatever it is is an impressive model and I would probably get 1.

Generally when buying models I go with what looks cool. So I don't have a tyranid dex. So thats purchase #1. Myself I would go with hormagaunts, they look the best but may not perform right now, I just don't know. Well, lets just look how I'd start out buying if I was starting a tyranid army.

1 hive tyrant.
tyrant guard

mawlock
carnifex or 2

zoanthropes 2-3
maybe a venomthrope

hormagaunts 4 or 6

Now, I don't know how effective an army like this would be. I'd probably want warriors and/or a second tyrant. Thats how I'd buy it based on the models that were out. But I buy big lots and tend to go with cool looking models (imo).

I'm hoping an actual tyranid players can jump in though. I think one of the best options is to start by buying the codex, look through it and read the stories then buy the models you want. Ask the employees, preferably the ones that like 40k. At my store there's many employees that focus on 1 or two different games and some may know nothing of 40k (focus on magic, board games or warmachine).

Also you can look through the forums in army lists/tactics on warseer to get an idea of what people are playing.

Some things that are really cool for tyranids that don't have models: Tervigon, Mycetic Spore, Tyranid prime?, Hive tyrant with wings.

Ravariel
17-02-2011, 16:24
The Tyranid Battleforce is slightly less of a deal than most, netting you about $130 worth of stuff for $105... but you still save, and if you can get a discount in-store (most places run 10-20% off) then it gets better. The battleforce does, however, have things you will be needing: Genestealers, gaunts and Warriors. After that you just need to decide if you want to go heavy MC, Horde or mid-size for your force and pick up an HQ and a couple other things. Trygons are the flavor of the month and really it'd be folly not to grab one, because the rules and the model are both awesome. I'd pick up a second warrior brood, more genestealers and a Tyrant if you have the spare cash. That said, not having a sea of unpainted minis right off the bat might be good, too... thus the battleforce or a couple biggies might be a better place to start, get some painting done, and only then expanding your force. It'll give you some time with the models and book, too so you can decide which direction you want to go.

Bestaltan
19-02-2011, 03:41
2. Tyranids are actually one of the few model ranges where it is pretty easy to make an incredible army with little effort in the paint department. My army is painted sort of a reverse hive fleet behemoth, and I've gotten lots of compliments on it (which is all the more impressive, as I'm not the best painter). One of the nice things about the Tyranids is, unlike Necrons, you can take a Tyranid army and paint it as simply or as crazy as you want it, and it will still look Buggy.

3. Necrons will be getting a new codex (probably) within the next year or two. The Tyranids were updated just last January, so they (probably) won't get a new codex for a long while yet. A word of caution though.......While it is certainly possible to win with the Tyranids, it is felt by a lot of Tyranid players that GW really botched the release of the codex. It just doesn't feel like GW gave us a polished product.

That said, the Tyranids are still a fun army to play. They just aren't the best army to start with if you're new or returning to the hobby after a long absence.

Bestaltan
19-02-2011, 03:50
Oops. Forgot to post a list.

Let's start you out at 500 points:

1. At that point level, most people go with a tyranid prime. Pretty darn good HQ choice for that point level. Most people run their primes with either two boneswords (which there is no model parts for) or lash whip/bonesword. Personal preference, but I often run him with rending claws also. It's a free upgrade, and it makes him a bit scary to tanks.

2. I'd grab either a couple of zoanthropes, or a couple of hive guard. These guys ARE your anti-tank.

3. That's about 200 points right there. The remaining 300 points, you can actually go quite a few ways. One way is to take three small units of genestealers with broodlords. That'll pretty much ensure you're winning most close combats at that level, as I have no idea how broodlords made it through internal testing (yes, they ARE that good). Another is to get a tervigon into your troops section with some regular gaunts as support. This fat guy is just crazy good (especially at 500 points, as he spawns new units). Another possible way is hormagaunts or warriors. Really, it just depends on your playstyle.

Paedan
19-02-2011, 04:47
I'd just add that for low points games, the Hive Guard will probably be more useful, as you won't see much stuff with excessively high Armour Values. Also, you probably won't get a Mycetic Spore (you have to make your own) for the Zoanthroapes. Lastly, the Hive Guard are more resilient vs damage thanks to their Toughness of 6.
I use Hormagaunts so I could be biased, but for your Troops choices you should go for Broodlord with Genestealers or 2 to 3 units of Hormagaunts (but with the problem of needing to provide them with Synapse). Genestealers is probably the way to go.