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xxRavenxx
17-02-2011, 00:10
Having now read through my shiny new hardback (yay!) The thing that really struck me (beyond the ballance that seems to have snuck in when designers weren't looking) was that the cavalry units all seem quite cheap and cheerful.

Is this the birth of big blocks of mounted troops? 3x5 units would not be particularly pricey. (about 275 points with command).

Non-elite cavalry has been underperforming since the new rulebook, is this going to be the solution?

Malorian
17-02-2011, 00:13
As odd as it sounds, I can see fast cav being replaced by heavy cav for doing things like hunting down war machines, while giving ranks to a character on boar will be left to the spiders. :p

Ultimate Life Form
17-02-2011, 00:14
I hope so, I always hated the idea of 5 guys on horses riding around the battlefield plowing through infantry like nothing to begin with.

If you want to know if this is what's intended, I must point you towards your telephone and the GW phone number.

decker_cky
17-02-2011, 03:51
I think it'll still be smaller units. Boar boyz dropped only 1 pt (if you buy shields and spears), and savage orcs about the same. The core of the army is still infantry, with trolls stepping up as another option, but smaller cavalry units can still be great. I'm pretty psyched about testing 5-8 savage orcs with additional handweapons as a flanking unit.

Kevlar
17-02-2011, 03:52
Even big blocks of cav will rarely be steadfast. Better hope you never suffer from "rubber lance" syndrome.

Zazzer
17-02-2011, 05:42
I have tried large units of spider riders with the SC that gives a group ambush, devastating charge and hatred (empire). A unit of thirty churns out 40 str 4 attacks on the charge and 10 spider attacks. And it pops out were ever you want it to.... very nasty.

R Man
17-02-2011, 06:10
I think it'll still be smaller units. Boar boyz dropped only 1 pt (if you buy shields and spears), and savage orcs about the same. The core of the army is still infantry, with trolls stepping up as another option, but smaller cavalry units can still be great. I'm pretty psyched about testing 5-8 savage orcs with additional handweapons as a flanking unit.

Really? I heard they dropped 2 points with all upgrades. Not to mention getting a better, less crippling animosity and gaining the choppa rule on the attack (S 5 Orcs!) But I haven't read the book and sometimes it's hard to get clear details second hand.


Even big blocks of cav will rarely be steadfast. Better hope you never suffer from "rubber lance" syndrome.

I don't think Steadfast is the aim. But having more attacks does help avoid rubber lance syndrome. If you roll more dice you've got to hit something.

theorox
17-02-2011, 08:32
They did drop 2p with all upgrades. :)

Theo

Urgat
17-02-2011, 08:50
The biggest drawback to big units of boar boyz is that boars deal as much damage (more if you don't buy spears/big'uns/both) as the rider, and they don't get support attack. It's kind of a waste to have 10 S5 attacks not used in a 3*5 formation charging, if you ask me.

Avian
17-02-2011, 09:01
They did drop 2p with all upgrades. :)

Theo
And they also got +1 S in the first round of combat, on top of spears, and more convenient Animosity.

Ronin[XiC]
17-02-2011, 09:15
Still not enough.
With ws3 and mediocre armorsave half of your boarboys will die before even making an attack.
I think that they are (in theory) still at least 5 points too expensive.

Avian
17-02-2011, 09:28
;5321872']Still not enough.
With ws3 and mediocre armorsave half of your boarboys will die before even making an attack.
^^ Shows a poor choice of target.

Ronin[XiC]
17-02-2011, 09:58
Like everything that has more initiative (everything) and can fight at least a bit?

For a unit of 10 Boarboys I can get ~6 trolls... Yes, the BB are a bit faster but suck completely after the first round and have many other dissadvantages.
It's not that I don't have 15 Boarboys that haven't seen the table for at least ... a whole edition :(

Avian
17-02-2011, 10:56
;5321941']Like everything that has more initiative (everything) and can fight at least a bit?
Less hyperbole. Gimme an example.

Da GoBBo
17-02-2011, 11:04
I'm a bit rusty on boarboy tactics so perhaps I talk utter nonsence. Feel free to point it out that if that is the case ;)

Seeing as how vulnerable these ladz still are (T4, 5(4)+ 6(5)++, which is nice, on the 6 (7?) point ladz on foot) I would still not consider them a frontline unit. Too expensive and hitty a target not to get shot/zapped to pieces. You could obviously use them as a firemagnet which might not be a bad idea at all. Something has got to get shot, so why not the porkas. At least you know it is gonna happen so use that knowledge to your advantage (advance the squigly beasts without too much risk for instance).

With the alteration to Waaagh! (ability) and non-existance of Waaagh! (spell) we aren't as fast as we were over the last 8 months (hit combat in turn 1, sweet). In the center they are bound to get a lot of attention for 2 turns, but when backed up by a chariot or two (important to have those I think) I think it might be worth it to weather 1 turn of ranged hurt, storm ahead and pierce enemy lines. I therefor think a bigger unit like you suggest should be even more expensive. Make them Big Uns, probably give them AHW, point, click and have away at any unit you like. Give them the armour piercing banner for good measure. They must rout whatever they touch (aim for weaker units, the aim is to end up behind enemy lines) and with the new choppa rule, they probably can at good pointcost.

Ones you plowed through them lines, what is for them to do? Turn and deal with your "scout" party or focus on the bulk of your army? Whatever their choice, it's fine with you.

It's still a bit risky. Situational too as it won't work on every unit out there, so I myself would prefer them as a flanking force backed up by a chariot (to lock/destroy counter units). A smaller unit would suffice. I think a unit like this should aim for 2 combats over the duration of the battle, meaning 6 boyz should be able to strike during that second combat. Take into account losses by shooting, losses taken during the first combat (and probably losses at the start of that second combat) and you have your unit size. I really don't know how big a unit you shall end up with. It also depends a bit on your regular groups armies I guess. I would suggest the banner of swiftness on a unit like this.

Avian
17-02-2011, 11:28
Seeing as how vulnerable these ladz still are (T4, 5(4)+ 6(5)++, which is nice, on the 6 (7?) point ladz on foot)
What exactly are you talking about here? :confused:

Da GoBBo
17-02-2011, 11:39
Well, savage orc boar boyz with 2 choppas have 5+6++ save no? Just like shield orcs. It later came to mind that adding a savage orc shaman improves their Wardsave (Yes, it took some editions but shamans ones again improve the S.orcs protectyness :D) so I added that. For good measure I also added the 4+ save when equiped with shields (for shooting and stuff). In the proces, the comparison with shield orcs got lost.

So, the point was: at 24? points, a savage orc boar boy big un with 2 choppa's dies just as easily as a 6 point shield orc (7 points this ed? I forgot). This is ok for mob of footsloggers, but not a good thing for a frontline cavalry unit. This does not make it a bad unit, but using it as a frontline unit might not be the wisest idea.

ihavetoomuchminis
17-02-2011, 11:46
^^ Shows a poor choice of target.

yes, a properly choice of target would be anything with iniciative between 1 and 2, :p

No, on topic, the idea of using units of 10 or 12 models seduces me.

R Man
17-02-2011, 12:07
yes, a properly choice of target would be anything with iniciative between 1 and 2,

No, on topic, the idea of using units of 10 or 12 models seduces me.

Well to be fair Boar Boyz are pretty tough. They'd hit very hard in the flank where low I means less. Having said that I think they'd be most valuable as a support unit. Excellent at helping the boyz (by adding the casualties needed to win combat against an outranked enemy) but at the same time I doubt their ability to fight a battle alone. Which is a good thing.

Da GoBBo
17-02-2011, 12:37
R Man, I couldn't agree more (except maybe on the thoughness thingy ;)). All aspects in this army support and are supposed to support eachother, that is a good thing.

Mid'ean
17-02-2011, 12:53
I think for the points I would rather go for trolls than BB's. Granted the BB's would be able to operate outside the generals LD range but you just get more bang for your buck with trolls. Take said unit of 3x5 BB's, with no command and just la+shield and spears your paying 300 points. 20 points a model. Now on a charge your getting 15 S5 W3 attacks and your unit has 15W and a AS of 3+. Now for the same price with trolls you get 8 for 285 points, 2x4 for 24 S5 W3 attacks or 8 vomit attacks for hvy armor targets. Your unit has 24W and a re-gen sv of 4+.

So I guess it comes down to what you want them doing. For wide sweeps and deep striking behind enemy lines BB's are better. For that flanking unit that you want to hit when you main line hits trolls are your better buy. jmo though....:)

ihavetoomuchminis
17-02-2011, 12:55
Well to be fair Boar Boyz are pretty tough. They'd hit very hard in the flank where low I means less. Having said that I think they'd be most valuable as a support unit. Excellent at helping the boyz (by adding the casualties needed to win combat against an outranked enemy) but at the same time I doubt their ability to fight a battle alone. Which is a good thing.

that's what i was trying to say :)

BigbyWolf
17-02-2011, 13:02
I ran a unit of 10 S.O Boar Boys in 7th backed up by a Wyvern Lord...they were quite fun. I'm looking forward to doing it in 8th as I have room to fit another Lord in there as my actual general.

theorox
17-02-2011, 13:53
Sneaky Stabbing can be cast on orc units, no? In that case, they'll be potentially deadly! :D

Theo

Storak
17-02-2011, 14:50
;5321941']Like everything that has more initiative (everything) and can fight at least a bit?

For a unit of 10 Boarboys I can get ~6 trolls... Yes, the BB are a bit faster but suck completely after the first round and have many other dissadvantages.
It's not that I don't have 15 Boarboys that haven't seen the table for at least ... a whole edition :(

i agree.

there also is a problem with the new animosity. basically everything that is the closest target will do serious damage to the orcs before they strike. and will drive them off, possibly destroying the unit.

Enkiel
17-02-2011, 14:57
in 8th ed, i played my Dark Elf's Cold One in unit of 10. Ok, they're not Boar Boyz, but that's definately some solid unit.

I'll be heading that route with my Savage Orc Boyz too.

The way i see it, is that your unit should always be built considering that 2 ranks attacks, and that a few dead shouldnt decrease your attack potential, or at the very least, as little as possible.

10 is a nice number ; not too expensive, so you can actually throw it at just about anything (well, ok, maybe not Slaves), and big enough to be considered as a threat by the ennemy (forcing them to manoeuvre accordingly)

Enkiel
17-02-2011, 14:59
I think for the points I would rather go for trolls than BB's. Granted the BB's would be able to operate outside the generals LD range but you just get more bang for your buck with trolls. Take said unit of 3x5 BB's, with no command and just la+shield and spears your paying 300 points. 20 points a model. Now on a charge your getting 15 S5 W3 attacks and your unit has 15W and a AS of 3+. Now for the same price with trolls you get 8 for 285 points, 2x4 for 24 S5 W3 attacks or 8 vomit attacks for hvy armor targets. Your unit has 24W and a re-gen sv of 4+.

So I guess it comes down to what you want them doing. For wide sweeps and deep striking behind enemy lines BB's are better. For that flanking unit that you want to hit when you main line hits trolls are your better buy. jmo though....:)

thing is, Troll wont get "take best of 3D6" for charge.

amysrevenge
17-02-2011, 15:10
I just like that the choice of whether to take BBs (or SOBBs) or not isn't a distressingly obvious one like it once was.

Even if you don't like them, at least you had to think about it...

Ronin[XiC]
17-02-2011, 15:12
thing is, Troll wont get "take best of 3D6" for charge.

Yeah but trolls don't really care about the charge anyways.
It's CRUCIAL to get the charge with BB. Otherwise they are down to 1 S4 + 1 S3 Attacks. (normal Boarboys)

A trolls will always have 3 S5 attacks.

martijn
17-02-2011, 15:15
I think 10 is a nice amount for that kind of cavalry, and, if supported by something like a chariot or another 5 man (ORK!!) unit, i can prove game-winning.

5 is nice and cheap but it's lacks a bit of impact and punch. 10 with a banner, charge, rank, and maybe flank attack already have 4 of combat res while denying the enemy their rank bonuses.

IMO, 10 is better, especially when supported.

Rogzor87
17-02-2011, 15:22
I have tried large units of spider riders with the SC that gives a group ambush, devastating charge and hatred (empire). A unit of thirty churns out 40 str 4 attacks on the charge and 10 spider attacks. And it pops out were ever you want it to.... very nasty.

I been asking around about this but no one has yet to tell me. He gives the Unit or just the riders Devastating charge?

Enkiel
17-02-2011, 15:46
;5322593']Yeah but trolls don't really care about the charge anyways.
It's CRUCIAL to get the charge with BB. Otherwise they are down to 1 S4 + 1 S3 Attacks. (normal Boarboys)

A trolls will always have 3 S5 attacks.With their crappy Ld, i'd rather have the extra CR for charge...

And, guys, we dont have to take one or the other, we can actually, you know, get both!

Each has their use imho.

big squig
17-02-2011, 20:56
I think that was pretty obvious from the rulebook. Units of 5 cav just aren't going to cut it anymore. You need 10+

Da GoBBo
17-02-2011, 22:13
Just out of curiosity as I allways fielded 10 anyway, did people ever field 5-man boarboy units? How did they do?

decker_cky
17-02-2011, 22:19
I think that was pretty obvious from the rulebook. Units of 5 cav just aren't going to cut it anymore. You need 10+

You really don't. You just need to be selective and use your unit of 5-7 for supporting charges. T4 3+ save is still pretty resilient, so you'll cause more damage than you take on a charge. Combined with the ranks from orcs or goblins to take out steadfast, and maybe a flank charge, you should be solid against most non-great weapon troops.

Trolls are more of a mainline unit than they are a support unit (the speed is the big difference that lets cav work better as a support unit).

Morkash
17-02-2011, 22:21
A unit of 10 Savage Boar Boyz with Spears/Shields, supported by a Savage Warboss with Armour of Gork and Spear/Shield.
Attacking, they have 3 Str 5 attacks each (2 from rider, 1 from boar), while the boss hits with 5 Str 7 attacks and D6 impact hits.
In terms of defense, the Boyz have 4+/6++, while da boss has 2+/6+ and good toughness.
If you are able to get a nice charge with them, the impact should hurt. :)
A flank charge with Sneaky Stabbin' would be quite awesome!

castlesmadeofsand
17-02-2011, 23:32
A unit of 10 Savage Boar Boyz with Spears/Shields, supported by a Savage Warboss with Armour of Gork and Spear/Shield.
Attacking, they have 3 Str 5 attacks each (2 from rider, 1 from boar), while the boss hits with 5 Str 7 attacks and D6 impact hits.
In terms of defense, the Boyz have 4+/6++, while da boss has 2+/6+ and good toughness.
If you are able to get a nice charge with them, the impact should hurt. :)
A flank charge with Sneaky Stabbin' would be quite awesome!


and chuck a naked savage shaman in there and you boost to a 5++ save on the lot. whats a 5+ ward save worth in magic item points to the w'boss alone, 30-40? which are points not needed out of his allocation, and you get a bit of casting potential as well. plus the value to the unit, makes the shamen pretty cheap really.

treat the shamen like a unit upgrade!

konate
17-02-2011, 23:42
I have tried large units of spider riders with the SC that gives a group ambush, devastating charge and hatred (empire). A unit of thirty churns out 40 str 4 attacks on the charge and 10 spider attacks. And it pops out were ever you want it to.... very nasty.

If you've got them in ranks of 10, you should only get 30 attacks. Devastating Charge does not apply to supporting attacks (pg. 49)

edit: plus the special character's attacks.

decker_cky
18-02-2011, 00:18
and chuck a naked savage shaman in there and you boost to a 5++ save on the lot. whats a 5+ ward save worth in magic item points to the w'boss alone, 30-40? which are points not needed out of his allocation, and you get a bit of casting potential as well. plus the value to the unit, makes the shamen pretty cheap really.

treat the shamen like a unit upgrade!

The ward save increase is from a 50 pt magic item which is shaman only. Not every savage orc shaman does this. Better to use that in a block of big uns with a warboss.

Also, the increase from 6+ to 5+ ward save on a character is worth 15 pts.

Rogzor87
18-02-2011, 04:14
If you've got them in ranks of 10, you should only get 30 attacks. Devastating Charge does not apply to supporting attacks (pg. 49)

edit: plus the special character's attacks.

10x3 = 40 attacks with devastating charge.

SamVimes
18-02-2011, 04:40
Cav don't get horde do they?

konate
18-02-2011, 05:16
It doesn't say that under Horde, anyway.

Avian
18-02-2011, 06:53
Cav don't get horde do they?
You can horde anything that comes in large enough units. You can horde a unit consisting entirely of characters if you wanted to.

BeatTheBeat
18-02-2011, 09:31
You can horde anything that comes in large enough units. You can horde a unit consisting entirely of characters if you wanted to.

40xGoblin Big Boss w. GW comes to mind... 1200 pts-ish for most awesome unit ever, a must have for any serious WAAAGH!

On topic, I'm considering 10x Savage Orc Big'Un BB. Any ideas on if this would work as one of my main blocks?

Cheers,
BTB

Urgat
18-02-2011, 09:40
40xGoblin Big Boss w. GW comes to mind... 1200 pts-ish for most awesome unit ever, a must have for any serious WAAAGH!

There's some people who play 10k games (lucky gitz!) where this is totally doable :)

Djekar
18-02-2011, 12:10
I'm planning on trying some Boar Boyz in small units for things like taking out warmachines or character hunting. Got to get those mages somehow now that we're crutchless in the magic phase! Even fully upgraded BBs are going to be ~100 points for 5 and can probably easily "make that back" in a game by hitting a machine/character and then chasing down all the stuff I can't catch after I break it.

Domandi
18-02-2011, 13:27
As much as I love the idea of big blocks of cheap characters... am I wrong in remembering that you can't make units of pure characters?

If you have a unit with hero, lord, bsb and all the rank and file are killed... i thought the characters are now all considered separated. Am I confusing old editions again?

Urgat
18-02-2011, 13:29
As much as I love the idea of big blocks of cheap characters... am I wrong in remembering that you can't make units of pure characters?

You are. Characters can now join each other to form units of pure sillyness if you so wish :p

Kaos
18-02-2011, 23:34
I do not know about you guys but i have two units of 12 and 13 boarboyz inlcuding a Bigboss/warboss in each unit just waiting for the book to fall into my lap.. Im even considering to make them into one big smashy unit, normal boars and two very angry characters in the front and give them either the Striderbanner or +1 move and HIT THAT FLANK HARD! Fill out the rest of the mainline with ranks upon ranks of infantry in various forms and back up with artillery/magic. I might buy me another box of boarboys just so i can make a unit of 30.. Because Big is Sexy and i just do not care about if its the best thing or not just that it will look awesome on the table and will hurt something sometime. Most times. WAAAAGH!!!

Man i have had them BB on the shelf since the start of 7th edition. Now is the time to ride again. Ride like the pigrider they are!

Think like an Orc, win like an Orc!

Cheers-Kaos

Da GoBBo
19-02-2011, 11:47
Because Big is Sexy and i just do not care about if its the best thing or not just that it will look awesome on the table and will hurt something sometime. Most times. WAAAAGH!!!

Man i have had them BB on the shelf since the start of 7th edition. Now is the time to ride again. Ride like the pigrider they are!

Hehe :D you just made my day.

theorox
19-02-2011, 12:33
Yay Boarboyz! CHARGE LADZ!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_sfnQDr1-o :D

Theo

Captainbastard
19-02-2011, 14:52
40xGoblin Big Boss w. GW comes to mind... 1200 pts-ish for most awesome unit ever, a must have for any serious WAAAGH!

On topic, I'm considering 10x Savage Orc Big'Un BB. Any ideas on if this would work as one of my main blocks?

Cheers,
BTB

Goblin bigbosses are deliberately overcosted because they confer LD onto units and can take good equipment and magic items.

By the time you have given your bigboss all the equipment he need not to make him absolute rubbish, he will be the same points cost as a troll, did people think about that?

Now for your 40 goblin bigbosses I could take 2 units of 18 trolls. Are people seriously still thinking about making this silly and unfluffy unit?

castlesmadeofsand
19-02-2011, 16:36
The ward save increase is from a 50 pt magic item which is shaman only. Not every savage orc shaman does this. Better to use that in a block of big uns with a warboss.

Also, the increase from 6+ to 5+ ward save on a character is worth 15 pts.

drat. i thought it was a return to the 4th ed rule!

snottlebocket
19-02-2011, 18:35
You are. Characters can now join each other to form units of pure sillyness if you so wish :p

Oh good god. So you could expand a spider army even further with a unit of Goblin heroes on gigantic spiders.

Avian
19-02-2011, 18:43
Sure. Good luck on getting those things to rank up, though... ;)

snottlebocket
19-02-2011, 18:47
Sure. Good luck on getting those things to rank up, though... ;)

To my shame I've never even been able to assemble the damnable thing. It's a lovely model but so much pinning for such a lazy modeler as me.

At least the old gigantic spider riding hero had the decency to come in only two parts, three if you count the hero.

Urgat
19-02-2011, 23:04
To my shame I've never even been able to assemble the damnable thing. It's a lovely model but so much pinning for such a lazy modeler as me.

I managed it, but 1) my fingers did not get out of it unscathed, 2) the whole experience was so frustrating that to this day I still haven't taken a brush to it and 3) even though a unit of them sounds cool, I'm never buying another one again :p
To my shame I've never even been able to assemble the damnable thing. It's a lovely model but so much pinning for such a lazy modeler as me.

[quote]At least the old gigantic spider riding hero had the decency to come in only two parts, three if you count the hero.

Which one? The one with either a big boss or shaman (this one (bottom right)? (http://www.cobraworld.net/nico/warhammer/orcsandgobs/heroes.jpg))? It's the only spider I can think of that came in two parts. That was no gigantic spider, it's actually smaller than a giant spider, I've had my eye on it since I got the 4th ed book, and was pretty shocked to find it so small when I got it :p it doesn't even fill a cavalry base (http://www.cobraworld.net/nico/warhammer/orcsandgobs/spidershaman03.jpg), I had to mount it on that big lump of wood so it actually stood out in my army.

snottlebocket
19-02-2011, 23:21
Which one? The one with either a big boss or shaman (this one (bottom right)? (http://www.cobraworld.net/nico/warhammer/orcsandgobs/heroes.jpg))? It's the only spider I can think of that came in two parts. That was no gigantic spider, it's actually smaller than a giant spider, I've had my eye on it since I got the 4th ed book, and was pretty shocked to find it so small when I got it :p it doesn't even fill a cavalry base (http://www.cobraworld.net/nico/warhammer/orcsandgobs/spidershaman03.jpg), I had to mount it on that big lump of wood so it actually stood out in my army.

That's the one. I assumed it was the 4th edition gigantic spider, although I did notice it was decidedly smaller than the giant scorpion.

I ended up mounting it on a cavalry base to lead my 4th Ed. Spider riders.

Urgat
19-02-2011, 23:36
There was a spider as big as the scorpion back then:
http://www.cobraworld.net/nico/warhammer/orcsandgobs/gobchariots.jpg , right of the pic (sorry, the pic isn't very useful, but since I haven't properly painted it yet, I didn't really bother showcasing it)