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Lavfluris
29-03-2006, 23:18
Right, now that I’ve had a few days to reflect on the Carnage Tournament 2006, I wish to express some thoughts.

Thank you all for the praise and criticism, both at the weekend and on the forum, Comments like the ones you have given will help us to continue and do better in the future.

I would like to take this opportunity to again thank all sixty-six of the entrants. I’d also like to congratulate the sterling effort made by Samuel Roberts and Hannah Langhorn as the Judges, hopefully they will be happy to reprise their roles for the next event. I’d also like to thank Nick for supporting Carnage.

There are two final people I’d like to thank. The first is Christopher Apperley, who was wrongly awarded the Overall Champion award due to user error with the laptop. I am thanking Christopher as he was such a gentleman by giving Richard Hogan, the actual winner, the award. I would like to thank Richard for his understanding and if he is present at Carnage 2007, we will publicly name him the winner.

The Carnage Tournament was a success, even if some others have differing views. It was a success in that it brought sixty-six people from across the country (and the Netherlands) together for the weekend, where every one went home with a good experience. It showcased the talent in the hobby, particularly from those who do not enter the official GW Tournament scheme and it highlighted the fact that Carnage is growing.

Now, the growth of Carnage is perhaps where I think the weekend’s issues developed. I think I was unprepared for the amount of work that was needed; the Carnage Tournament 2006 was triple the size of the Carnage Tournament 2005, something I had not anticipated and had hoped I had made suitable preparations for. As it transpires, the preparations were for the most part, adequate. The only recurring difficulty was in inputting, transferring and displaying the data in the IT department, which in itself is a completely new learning curve as all of my previous results were all done by hand. The difficulties were due to this inexperience and even mistakes on my part, I am the first one to admit that this could have been handled better and it will be in the future. We hope that these situations have not put anyone off Carnage in the future, and I apologise greatly for any upset our failings may have caused.

I can appreciate the concerns that some people may have and I appreciate your point of view, for I am as much concerned with the Carnage Tournament 2006 as you are. I have learnt some very valuable lessons from the weekend and will not forgot them.

Rest assured, by the time the Carnage Tournament 2007 Rules Pack is available in December, you will see the first of these lessons, the other lessons learnt will be seen first hand on March 24th and 25th 2007.

If you have any thoughts you also wish to express in full, then do not hesitate to contact me or post in this thread.

EDIT: I have attached the Results to this thread.

The results are final are no discussion will be entered into.

I have also merged this post with another post of mine so that this thread does serve as the Final Report.

Rik Valdis
30-03-2006, 08:49
Yes, you are correct. There is no explanation for this other than my own incompetence.
Well in that case could Ed Stevenson please PM me his address and I will post you the best Sportsman trophy, when I get round to it anyway, I dont have the money for postage or any idea how I would do it at the moment. IF by any chance you live around Peterborough (my home) or York (my Uni) you can meet me and take it off me in person but if you are who I think you are you live in Nottingham?

Does it suggest something wrong with me that I'm happier to be proved right that Ed won the Best Sportsman than I am disappointed to lose the award?

Crube
30-03-2006, 08:58
Or does it indeed prove that you are the best sportsman, and should indeed keep the trophy...

Lav - I dont think there was anything too bad happening there - it all got sorted out in the end.

I'm just really looking forward to next year now (although the journey time from Inverness / Aberdeen will probably be a killer...)

McMullet
30-03-2006, 09:05
OK, I have a few thoughts about this.

For the painting and presentation, it would be nice to have a three tier rather than two tier scoring system (I was talking to Sam (the other Sam, not myself) about this on the train home).

We were thinking something along these lines:

PAINTING:
Unpainted models: 0pts
Painted to a minimum standard in 3 colours, with little to no highlighting or shading - 4pts
Painted to a high standard, with some shading/highlights on every model - 8 pts

CONVERSIONS:
No conversions/1 or 2 minoir conversions: 0pts
One substantial conversion, or several minor conversions: 3pts
Major conversion: 5pts

...and so on.

Also, to take account of really outstanding work (e.g., Samael's army background, I'm still convinced it was bound in human skin... :eek: ) it might be nice to allow the judges to award a 5 point bonus for players who have produced something particularly amazing.

Another minor point in this area would be to drop or change the "Squad markings" thing from Fantasy, as it's really not as appropriate. Differentiating similar units is something that needs to be done, but is far more subjective in Fantasy than in 40K IMHO (Plus, the ranked up units make it less important).

Regarding sportsmanship, it will always be a tricky thing to do well. Perhaps a 3 tier system would work, but still based on the assumption that the best option should always be chosen. The problem with the current system is that your opponent was a little unsporting, you'd feel it was harsh to give him a "Lousy Game", but if there was an "OK Game" option, there might be a few more Sportsmanship points docked. A rather negative way of looking at things I know, but it might work. Another alternative might be a hybrid voting system, whereby the players vote for best sportsman from those with the highest scores. A final possibility might be to just scrap the whole best sportsman award, so players still get points for it but there's no trophy.

More to come I suspect, when I remember it. :)

Venomizer
30-03-2006, 09:10
looks like destination: carnage for me then.............I wanted to go this year but my laziness in painting crippled that plan, I best start painting those Necrons up ASAP as it'll be nice to see the people behind the username

Note: I make no apologies for how hard my surname will be to spell :p

Crube
30-03-2006, 09:12
CONVERSIONS:
No conversions/1 or 2 minoir conversions: 0pts
One substantial conversion, or several minor conversions: 3pts
Major conversion: 5pts

...and so on.


While I do agree with this, I think there is an issue with armies that really dont take well to conversions.

I'm thinking of Dwarves, Wood Elves, High Elves etc.

All can look really cool and spectacular without the need for extensive converting, and in many ways, there's no real opportunity for decent conversions anyway. i did a few mior ones for my Wood Elves, but the models are so cool, IMO there's just no need for anything more.

The same for Dwarves...

Chaos armies would (almost) always get full marks for conversions as that is the nature of that army...Other armies could potentially be at a disadvantage here....

McMullet
30-03-2006, 09:16
I can see what you mean. But then, if you've done some spangly conversions, you should get recognition for it. Some people could equally say, "I'm rubbish at painting, so there should be no painting scores".

I would expect most armies to be able to get the mid-level score, and only a few get the top one.

Crube
30-03-2006, 09:19
Fair enough, but I'd be concerned that it would see an increase in Chaos armies...

I am quite capable of doing conversions, (see my Tzeentch army from last year), but dont particularly want to feel railroaded into doing them on every army I do...I know my Tomb Kings will probably have a few shoehorned in, just to try and get a decent mark...

I do understand whast you mean about recognition for doing some spanly conversions though...


Hmmm - tricky

Rik Valdis
30-03-2006, 09:27
I theink the painting system as used is good, but could be improved by using the judges discretion. You could have the marking areas and points the same as this time (possibly dropping converstions) and then add on 10 points which are awarded at the judges discretion, most armies would get 0 I would think but anything that looks really special, like Crube's standard of painting or Ron's army list or some really cool conversions could get some extra points.

Crube
30-03-2006, 09:30
Maybe, to eliminate any accusations of bias etc, both judges could get 5 bonus points to award...making a bonus out of 10...

Shouldnt take too much time to get each judge to nip round the top painted stuff 1 more time (should it?)


And Rik - Thanks :D

McMullet
30-03-2006, 10:11
Fair enough, but I'd be concerned that it would see an increase in Chaos armies...
It's only 2 points, mate... OK, so it makes a difference, but no-one is going to change their army just to get a bonus of 2 points. Or if they're that daft, they aren't going to win many games ;).

Bruen
30-03-2006, 10:12
Lavfluris don't beat yourself up about a minor problem. As someone who organises exhibitions I can tell you that there is always going to be something that goes wrong.

I had a great time and so did pretty much everyone that I talked to at the event. Thanks to all the organisers for their hard work.

I also had no problems with the scoring system although I think that the fixation on unit markings is a bit wierd. Although I didn't bring it to Carnage my Tau army has no unit markings because I don't think that a high-tech army like that would be so crude as to paint them on their armor - they are much more likely to be identified by transponder codes on the battlefield management display. How to model that on a unit?

McMullet
30-03-2006, 10:32
Well, when I was judging that I accepted more subtle things, for example slightly different bases, different poses or weapons, or whatever. Like I say, it's not always appropriate to have actual markings on a model.

Like Bruen says, most things went well, I think most people had a good time - that's the main thing after all.

axiom
30-03-2006, 12:17
From a personal point of view the tournament totally fulfilled my expectations - I had 5 good fun games of 40k. Scoring is always going to be difficult, especially on what are sometimes considered side issues of sportsmanship and painting.

For the 2006 tourney, everyone had access to the pack prior to the event and knew what was going to be used, so there should have been no surprises.

Lav, Nick & the rest did a great job - all the feedback will help refine it and that's great.

Lardidar
30-03-2006, 12:37
I also say it was a great event and very well run by all those involved.

I have nothing to moan about (apart from my army sucking)

Sportsmanship is the only award I would look at, it just seems odd to me that in the case of a draw that the person who won the most games would win best sportsman (seems a bit like a mini generalship award)

I am not just saying this to throw a spanner in the works, I have an award I won a few years ago with my Iron warrior army for the exact same reason (Finished 2nd with full sportsmanship points), However I certainly didn't feel like the best sportsman on the day and could think of at least four other people that deserved it more than me.

Can't wait till next year, think it might just be Skaven.

I will also be down later this year no matter what we do, although I would love an excuse to buy some Sisters of battle ;)

Danger Rat
31-03-2006, 07:23
I think the tournament went very well I had 4 excellent games of WFB (unforunately I got a bye in rd2) My only minor issue was with the sportsmanship I do think there should be 3 options (lousy game good game and great game) most games will fall in the good category and a few in the other 2 and this should then reward a player who picks up several great games and should make it much easier to award the best sportsman award.

Really looking forward to next year and participating in the tale of x gamers will be either be normal dark elves or the cult of slaanesh depending on whether the SOC lists will be allowed.

Tom - Heretic
31-03-2006, 10:59
Well, first off I don't think that anything was poorly done. Everything went pretty smoothly, especially the games themselves.
Sportsmanship and painting scores could do with a change, maybe. But that would mean more work for the judges, and I wouldn't dream of asking them to do more work than the silly amount they're already expected to do. I'm sure you'll cook something up that works for everyone :).

cookiescrumble
31-03-2006, 12:36
Must say i had a fantastic weekend, apart for the fact we missed our coach in london and was stranded until 23:30!!! This wasn't too bad though, cue 40k in Burger King!!! Yes thats right we played 40k in burger king at victoria coach station.

Well run though guys! See you all next year definately.:D

cookiescrumble
31-03-2006, 12:40
Hey Lav, can you put me down for the tale of X gamers for carnage 2007.

Dodgy Ed
31-03-2006, 13:21
Yay finally got internet access back. Anyway


Well in that case could Ed Stevenson please PM me his address and I will post you the best Sportsman trophy,

As Crube says, it does indeed prove you deserve the best sportsman trophy, don't worry about it mate it was just nice to have some great games of warhammer over the weekend.

Edit

Another minor point in this area would be to drop or change the "Squad markings" thing from Fantasy,

I think you're probablly on to something here, if the score sheets are to be believed the unit markings are worth a huge 8pts overall (the joint highest painting 'soft' score overall) whereas conversions are only worth 5pts. This just doesn't seem to fit the fantasy feel where units are more defined by their equipment than by the standardisation of 41st millenium. Anyway just my $0.02

Storm Hunters
31-03-2006, 14:15
Cookies Crumble, i want by coch as well, which one did you miss. I was on the 6:30, although unfortunatly there was a massive crash on the M1 so we had to take a two houre detour via Oxford wtf, so out 3 houre jerny took 5 houres. 40k in bergur king sounds preffrable to 5 houres on a coach.

Angels Wing
31-03-2006, 14:51
Yep apart from the scoring mishap, I have to admit the tourney was brilliantly run and probably had the best mix of players I've had the honour to play with, still a bit gutted I narrowly missed out on one of those lovely trophies ;) but hey theres always next year!
Thanks again to Lav and the crew

P.S
I think the majority of FLAME ON! should be making an appearance next year
see you all there!

McMullet
31-03-2006, 14:57
Also, thanks to everyone from FLAME ON! for not shouting "FLAME ON!" at the start of every round. :p;)

Angels Wing
31-03-2006, 15:03
Yeah we were warned the night previous about that one:D
Far to delicate (Hungover) me thinks to contemplate anyhow.

FLAME ON!

Just to make up for It ;)

Thanks Again

Angels Wing

Rik Valdis
31-03-2006, 15:09
As Crube says, it does indeed prove you deserve the best sportsman trophy, don't worry about it mate it was just nice to have some great games of warhammer over the weekend.

I can see this back and forth stuff going on for a while, surely you've just proved you deserve it :).

Oh well, I guess I'll have to secretely hide it in your bag at the next Carnage!

Dodgy Ed
31-03-2006, 15:18
Lol I'll trade ya for a beer at the next Carnage

Barney the Lurker
02-04-2006, 12:26
I would just like to say a (very) belated thanks to Lav and Co for putting on a great tourney. Had fun from the start to the end with some great games.

Thanks once again to all involved and see you next year!

lee
12-04-2006, 19:27
roll on 2007 carnage cant wait

Lavfluris
13-04-2006, 13:53
Hey Lav, can you put me down for the tale of X gamers for carnage 2007.There's no real need too, as anyone can start their army on September 1st. If anyone is inactive for six weeks, their contribution will be ended. I guess that is a sort of 'those that fall behind get left behind' policy.



Yeah we were warned the night previous about that one:D Yep, by most people you went to the Goose with.

Still love how I was leaving my hotel just as you seven walked by. Not everyday a stranger comes up to a big group and says 'Chris Green!'. ;)

Barney the Lurker
17-04-2006, 00:44
Still love how I was leaving my hotel just as you seven walked by. Not everyday a stranger comes up to a big group and says 'Chris Green!'. ;)

Once again, sorry for thinking you were a random and saying to you 'no thanks mate'. :(

Anathema
27-04-2006, 20:07
Once again, sorry for thinking you were a random and saying to you 'no thanks mate'.

Yeah sorry about that too, when I see a guy loitering on a corner staring at a group of me and my mates my stock response is "Sorry mate, got no change!". It never usually occurs to me that he's a tournament organiser and Warseer type!

McMullet
27-04-2006, 22:46
Well, don't start overcompensating.

The last thing you want to do is start walking up to tramps and giving them your results cards and stuff.