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Oakwolf
18-06-2011, 18:24
This is a bit of a follow up to my former post "The Barbarian and the Lantern"

I've noticed that many players don't really like him.

1. His negative trait is very annoying, and can actually doom the party

2. He doesn't bring any special equipment to help the party.

3. His stats are not so great, especially WS

4. His progression to level 2 almost seems to give nothing.

--

But there are some bonuses:

1. He can use all weapons, armors, shields, and missle weapons

2. When it works, the berserk ability is superb

3. He is about the toughest hero there is once he goes to town (shield!)

4. He gets the lantern if he wants it (unless the ogre steals it!)

-----

I would have expected the barbarian to at least gain a WS up on level two. It seems strange when compared to most heroes out there. But he does gain a T point.

How do you see the barbarian, do you even play with it in your games?

BigRob
19-06-2011, 21:33
Of the box set heroes he is the most powerful fighter. Yes his beserk ability has its downsides but IMO the dwarf usually trips over the beard far more than the barbarian looses it with the party.

His ability to tank armour and weapons make him a very solid choice all the way through the levels, yes his skills are terrible but he has the raw power to stay in the game.

Obviously the expansion pack warriors are better than him in some ways but in our longest running campaign the barbarian player was one of the more important anchors to the fighting line. The Brettonian Knight cannot wear better armour, the lord of Anarion does far more damage but is a glass cannon, the chaos warrior is.....the chaos warrior and so on, but the Barbarian really is the middle of the road "warrior".

In my own personal Quest rewrite this role has been moved elsewhere and my take on the Barbarian is as the Norscan Beserker......

Daniel36
20-06-2011, 07:48
Exactly. Just house rule him a little. It's not like the game rules are set in stone.

I honestly don't get the fact that he exists at all. Barbarian... The only time they use the term in the Warhammer world is, well... here! He doesn't really have a place if you ask me. Oh well!

BigRob
20-06-2011, 10:40
I honestly don't get the fact that he exists at all. Barbarian... The only time they use the term in the Warhammer world is, well... here! He doesn't really have a place if you ask me. Oh well!

One word...... HeroQuest :D

EldritchGamer
20-06-2011, 11:52
Yeah, the Barbarian is a throw-back to the combo of Warriors in HeroQuest. Another great & simple game, if a little TOO simple to expand.

I also find the Barbarian weak compared to other Warrior types, especially when he is no longer the leader or when the party consists of some Warriors from the 'advanced' Warrior Packs.

He is definitely the most flexible Warrior out there though. As others have suggested, maybe some House Rules to improve his Berserk skill, or give him extra starting equipment.

I'd really like to see a re-write of his skills list to make him competitive with the Warrior Packs though.

Oakwolf
20-06-2011, 16:07
While his skills could be revised, i think his flaws are more around lvl 1-2 or even mechanically inserted in his rules.

===Biggest flaws===

Berserk: loosing a hero 16% of the time when monsters come is not fun for the party. Frequently, it will also coincide with the wizard having rolled a 1. Not only does he fail at doing anything, but he will also wound other heroes, so they will tend to stay away from him, while he could provide protection with his extra wounds.

Lame WS: For a fighter, WS 3 is very low. He is the easiest pray for Minotaurs or similar creatures (who trump his wounds with 2D6 dmg), and will often fail at hitting orcs and skaven. His WS does not rise at lvl 2, meaning he will maintain this drawback forever.

No support: The barbarian doesn't support the party whatsoever because his equipment is...the lantern.

BigRob
20-06-2011, 17:14
No support: The barbarian doesn't support the party whatsoever because his equipment is...the lantern.

Well to be fair niether does the elf, a one use healing potion that he will usually keep to himself.......

The barbarian supports the party with the fighting and the slaying. He does it almost as well as the Dwarf (who suffers badly from going last) and better than the Elf (who has a bow...thats about it).

Oakwolf
20-06-2011, 17:36
That's fine from a perspective, but the healing potion of the elf is a massive boost to the party's survivability of their first dongeon, which is all that is needed before bandages and provisions can be bought. In our group, the elf never hesitates to save someone else.

As for the ability of the elf in a fight, well...his WS of 4 allows him to hit most foes on 3+ and the immunity to pinning allows to re-alocate that attack where it is needed. By the time he gets to evade things on 5+ and has access to armor, a magical bow and better shooting skill, he definitely can make a difference.

The dwarf, while going last, only suffers from it from a competitive point of view between the heroes. He is, however, a much more reliable fighter than the barbarian (WS4, no berserk) and can inflict severe wounds on the big monsters such as minotaurs. Going last is beneficial against those same high wounds monsters, because more often than not they will already be damaged by the other heroes, but still alive to threaten with their deadly attacks. You will often notice that the barbarian will almost never get to kill Minotaurs, simply because he goes first.


I am not saying the barbarian is worthless at all, besides i often play it in our group, but i am trying to pin point where we should look to get him up to par with others. The aspects needed to be changed don't need to be that much, but i think most people here expressed that he is lacking in some ways.

BigRob
21-06-2011, 10:10
Initial Skill: Berserker
provided there are no monsters on the board, whenever monsters are placed on the board, roll 1D6 and consult the following table.

1.The Berserker goes berserk and is unable to determine friend from foe. He deals 1 wound with no modifiers to all models in base contact before returning to acting normally this turn. He may test again next time monsters are placed on the board.
2-5. The Berserker goes into a frenzy and gains +1A/Title until no monsters remain on the board.
6. The Berserker goes into a frothing rage and gains +1A and +1S/ Title until no monsters remain on the board.

Something like this? Stops it all going to hell in a handbasket when he rolls a 1 but also give more incentive than just +1A. One of his skills available as he levels up removes the penalty of rolling a 1, changing the roll to 1-5 and 6.

Most of my skills scale with the warriors titles, mainly to give them more of a chance, the BL tables and the power of the monsters ramps up significantly, especially after level 5.

Oakwolf
21-06-2011, 15:58
Yes something like that. I agree that the real problem of the barbarian lies in his berserk ability.

a) is the skill you mention to ignore the penalty in the roleplay book? i don't remember it.

b) a less powerful table could be as follow:

Roll a dice at the start of the warrior phase when monsters have been placed on the board. Add +1 for each monster slain in the current adventure. A roll of 1 before modifiers will always make the barbarian mad!

1 - Mad!
The barbarian flails wildly, striking at friends and foes alike), inflicting 1 wound on each adjacent party members with no modifiers. Once resolved, he may act normally. Test again next warrior phase.

2-5 Enraged
The barbarian gains +1A for this turn. Roll again in the next warrior phase.

6 - Berserk!
The barbarians gains +1ST +1A per title (min. +1) for the reminder of the encounter.

BigRob
21-06-2011, 20:02
Yes something like that. I agree that the real problem of the barbarian lies in his berserk ability.

a) is the skill you mention to ignore the penalty in the roleplay book? i don't remember it.

b) a less powerful table could be as follow:

Roll a dice at the start of the warrior phase when monsters have been placed on the board. Add +1 for each monster slain in the current adventure. A roll of 1 before modifiers will always make the barbarian mad!

1 - Mad!
The barbarian flails wildly, striking at friends and foes alike), inflicting 1 wound on each adjacent party members with no modifiers. Once resolved, he may act normally. Test again next warrior phase.

2-5 Enraged
The barbarian gains +1A for this turn. Roll again in the next warrior phase.

6 - Berserk!
The barbarians gains +1ST +1A per title (min. +1) for the reminder of the encounter.

The penalty I refer to is the roll of "1 - Mad" on the table. No need for the minimum of 1, warriors have 4 titles, Novice, Champion, Hero, Lord so at levels 9-10 he is getting +4A and +4S but by that level he will need them!

Oakwolf
21-06-2011, 20:08
I will test those ideas in our next adventure.

Jolly Puggles
26-06-2011, 10:15
The biggest foible of the Barbarian in my mind is the fact that his Strength never increases! He starts at 4 and stays there...his mighty thews never get mightier, his iron grip is never tempered to steel and so on. Even the flimsy Elf eventually equals the Barbarians prodigious physical prowess. What gives?

The other problem with the Barbarian is that a good two or three of the skills on his table are utterly useless due to being unable to be used whilst raging, which largely means they'll never get used. After a certain point, the Barbarian is almost guaranteed to rage after the first combat of a dungeon. If he doesn't use those skills in the first combat (assuming he didn't frenzy during it), he won't get a chance to at all!

The final complaint I have with the Barbarian is that the Trollslayer (which is even provided free-of-charge in the back of the Roleplay Book) fills the Barbarian niche of a strong, tough fighter better. The only thing the Barbarian has over the Trollslayer is that he can use weapons other than axes and he can use armour (oh, he can also buy the luxury doodahs like ships and castles...but who ever bothers with them?).

In short, the Barbarian starts off filling his niche well...strong as an ox and twice as tough with a mind-set usually reserved for the criminally insane...but as he "improves", he loses everything that made him unique and he becomes the not-doing-it-as-well-as-the-next guy.

Oakwolf
03-07-2011, 01:21
I agree with this.

And we are constantly reminded that the dwarf is plain better. The dwarf even has bonus for drinking beer, wearing heavy armor (no M penalty), has access to special locations, runes and a magic item right from the start. That's not to mention much more aggressive skills, and a rather good progression for lvl 2.

The barbarian's level 2 is a joke compared to the dwarf (and elf for that matter), but the most interesting level (which almost makes me think there is a typo) is the level 6. +1 to BS, and +1 to INI. There's no worse stats for the barbarian than those, since a) he never shoots, and b) he always has the INI thanks to the lantern.

0000

I believe that his strength should go to 5 after a few levels. His skills are abysimal in terms of helping him fight...which combined with his very slow progression and the berserk skill often leads to other warriors in the party getting alot of gold compared to him.

I'll be thinking about a more comprehensive list of suggested house rules soon.

EldritchGamer
04-07-2011, 09:08
If you head over to the Warhammer Quest: The Museum site (http://wquest.free.fr/), go to Rules and type 'Barbarian' into the search box, a set of additional Barbarian rules is listed.
These include a new special location, special events and new treasures for him.
Combined with some rules fixes, these may be a starting point for differentiating between the Barbarian and the other Warriors, and also for making him a bit more interesting and competitive.

Having just finished watching Game of Thrones, I really want to see some kind of animal companion for the Barbarian, just like the Starks. Maybe either according to his Battle Level or when a skill is learned, he would have the option of purchasing, winning or finding a war hound, wolf or Norscan wolf to be his companion.

Odin
11-07-2011, 14:08
Exactly. Just house rule him a little. It's not like the game rules are set in stone.

I honestly don't get the fact that he exists at all. Barbarian... The only time they use the term in the Warhammer world is, well... here! He doesn't really have a place if you ask me. Oh well!

It is a bit odd. I'd love to see WHQ return one day, but I think it really should be a bit better connected with the Warhammer world, rather than having the very generic starting characters from the last version. I'd replace the Barbarian with a mercerary or noble from the Empire, though with a barbarian available as one of the non-core characters for those who want.

Jolly Puggles
11-07-2011, 17:49
It is a bit odd. I'd love to see WHQ return one day, but I think it really should be a bit better connected with the Warhammer world, rather than having the very generic starting characters from the last version. I'd replace the Barbarian with a mercerary or noble from the Empire, though with a barbarian available as one of the non-core characters for those who want.

It'd be nice to see Race divorced from Role as well. WHQ is halfway to being a Roleplaying game anyway and being able to play a Dwarf that specialises in using a Crossbow or Pistol instead of an Axe, or an Elf that is a spellcaster would make it possible to really explore the characters.

Shas'El Tael
12-07-2011, 02:59
Sounds like you want to create careers within races.

Choose your race then a collection of professions within their spectrum. Rather WFRP in a way.

Almost as if suggesting an advanced form of WHqst, not unlike what Adv. Hqst was to Heroquest.

Barbarians could be Shamans through to Chaos Worshippers, being northern folk. Makes for interesting selections indeed.

- T.

BigRob
12-07-2011, 07:31
TBH an advanced form of WHQ would be WFRP (ironically the third edition published by FFG is closer to WHQ than it is to its predecessors but FFG is hideously expensive).

Obviously in "todays" warhammer the Barbarian is simply a Norscan Warrior (he makes his way into WFRP2nd ed as the Norscan beserker) and is only in WHQ as a throwback to Heroquest, the "barbarian,elf,wizard,dwarf" being the most widely recognised RPG warrior group.

All the boxset warriors really need is some expanded rules since all the subsequent warrior packs got some pretty nifty bits and bobs. As has been said above the Trollslayer comes in the box and is a better tank/fighter off the bat compared to the barbarian.

DelveLord
13-07-2011, 15:03
The Trollslayer, while perhaps a better fighter/tank than the Barbarian, is balanced with some very serious drawbacks. He cannot roll on the Escape table, and in fact will always charge in to attack the biggest Monster in any combat. This reduces his chance of survival considerably!

Jolly Puggles
13-07-2011, 19:16
The Trollslayer, while perhaps a better fighter/tank than the Barbarian, is balanced with some very serious drawbacks. He cannot roll on the Escape table, and in fact will always charge in to attack the biggest Monster in any combat. This reduces his chance of survival considerably!

But then the Trollslayer also goes up in Level a lot faster than any other hero because of his special rules regarding gold.

BigRob
13-07-2011, 21:27
The Trollslayer, while perhaps a better fighter/tank than the Barbarian, is balanced with some very serious drawbacks. He cannot roll on the Escape table, and in fact will always charge in to attack the biggest Monster in any combat. This reduces his chance of survival considerably!

I can't remember more than a handful of games where we were forced to use the escape table, so not so much of an issue.

Charging the biggest monster....well what else were you going to do with it?

Faster Leveling up is true, he doesnt keep having his gold melted/stolen/eaten by Quargs so he does enjoy that perk (plus he doesn't have much to spend it on anyway....)

EldritchGamer
14-07-2011, 08:21
The Trollslayer, while perhaps a better fighter/tank than the Barbarian, is balanced with some very serious drawbacks. He cannot roll on the Escape table, and in fact will always charge in to attack the biggest Monster in any combat. This reduces his chance of survival considerably!
That and absolutely no armour - or even clothes one some models!

BigRob
14-07-2011, 09:42
That and absolutely no armour - or even clothes one some models!

Now while the barbarian can wear all armour (which doesn't actualy make alot of sense, that is the realm of knights and dwarves) by the time you get to level 6+ armour becomes a bit useless since anything you meet will either blast you with magic, ignore the armour with magic or just rip you apart like a tin can (when monsters start getting 3+ damage dice the party know about it) so armour is not such an advantage at these levels.

The only time it helps is with hordes of lesser beasties which a well places deathblow or two will clear from the board in a round or two. Therefore the Trollslayer still keeps the edge over the barbarian in the fighting stakes.

A better option for WHQ 2 might be to replace the Barbarian with a knight in the starter box and have him as a special warrior pack later on.

Inchpractice
14-07-2011, 19:35
The barbarian has always been fruitful in my games. Going first is a big bonus and having first pick of the treasure cards often means he is kitted out nicely. I agree that his strength should jump to 5 at some point and the dwarf the better warrior though.

How does everyone interpret the beserk skill, if you roll a 1 do you let the barbarian try again then next available turn or is that his only chance for the combat?

BigRob
15-07-2011, 09:27
The barbarian has always been fruitful in my games. Going first is a big bonus and having first pick of the treasure cards often means he is kitted out nicely. I agree that his strength should jump to 5 at some point and the dwarf the better warrior though.

How does everyone interpret the beserk skill, if you roll a 1 do you let the barbarian try again then next available turn or is that his only chance for the combat?

The going first/treasure pick is good for more competetive games but that kind of gameplay usually fails around level 4-5 when the heroes need to work very hard as a team to avoid being killed alot.

I always interpreted it as being he rolls the 1, does the damage and cannot test for beserk again until fresh monsters are places on the board, kind of a once per monster event affair. Likewise, once beserk he remains so until no monsters are left on the board.

DelveLord
15-07-2011, 14:54
>>How does everyone interpret the beserk skill<<

I keep rolling until he goes berserk during the combat. So, the Barbarian can potentially roll 1's several times turns during a combat. Once the Barbarian goes berserk, then the rolling stops. This berserk condition (+1 Attacks) remains in effect until the end of the combat. Next combat, repeat the procedure.

Also, for awhile I was making the roll at the start of the Barbarian's turn. But the card says to make the roll "before he attacks". So I changed it to make the roll right before he attacks, after he moves. If he doesn't attack during a turn, he doesn't get this roll.

Alvena
15-07-2011, 16:46
i don't get it.
When we played, barbarian was always put in the middle of the room with the 8 square around him free to receive monster to be smashed. and as he can do something like "death hit" ie: "coups mortel" he was getting a lot of kills.

BigRob
16-07-2011, 19:23
i don't get it.
When we played, barbarian was always put in the middle of the room with the 8 square around him free to receive monster to be smashed. and as he can do something like "death hit" ie: "coups mortel" he was getting a lot of kills.

This is certainly the case at level 1, but, once in the bigger league he lags behind everyone else with lacklustre stats, a poor skill list and no real special rules to speak of (Dwarfs and Elves have thier guild shops for example).

Alvena
16-07-2011, 22:40
ok, we never survived after lvl 5-6 :)

BigRob
17-07-2011, 11:06
ok, we never survived after lvl 5-6 :)

Hence the reason for looking over the rules and trying to make them better :D

The only time we survived over level 5 was in a campaign I ran instore which went on for a couple of years. 5+ players which meant the party would usually have at least one person alive after the initial round of killing.

We had a Brettonian Knight, Imperial Noble, Salty Seadog, Dwarf, Barbarian, Wizard and Elf who played every week plus drop ins from the Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest, Elf Noble, Ex Bloodbowl Player and anyone else who was in store and fancied joining in. They managed to kill a griffon and several other big baddies but when we stopped we tried a few fun fights. The bloodthirster took the party out without ever taking a wound.

Managed level 8 before it folded due to one of the better staff members returning from his management course a very changed man. All SG not currently sold were immediatly banned including space hulk and necromunda :cries:

Inchpractice
17-07-2011, 21:48
The going first/treasure pick is good for more competetive games but that kind of gameplay usually fails around level 4-5 when the heroes need to work very hard as a team to avoid being killed alot.

I always interpreted it as being he rolls the 1, does the damage and cannot test for beserk again until fresh monsters are places on the board, kind of a once per monster event affair. Likewise, once beserk he remains so until no monsters are left on the board.

Yes that is how we have been playing it although like many rules in quest it isn't 100% clear.

Oakwolf
13-10-2011, 00:40
The special rule on his card starts with "Each turn [...]". So you roll until you get a total of 6 (Roll+kill count). The disaster result (1) doesn't make you stop, it's just an epic fail. The only way you'll stop rolling is when you go berserk, or combat ends.

Anyway, after playing alot with the character, we've settled with

- Increases Weapon Skill to 4 by Level 2 (and then follows normal chart progression)
- + 1 Strenght at Level 6, which is a pretty useless level to begin with.
- + 1 on the ale house results (barbarian's "special" location)
- Berserk improved to +2 attacks at hero level and +3 attacks at Lord level
- His furs do not incur penalties if worn with chainmail.

Basically we compensate for the lack of value in his skills, the lack of a special location or magic items by increasing the prowess of the barbarian at levels he pales compared to others. He's one of the few characters to start with S4, so it's normal that he'd end up stronger than most. He doesn't have a special location, but the alehouse is pretty much where barbarians go.

The dwarf not only get alehouse bonus, but also better skills and a useful special location. As soon as they hit lvl 2, many characters get even much better than barbarians (having 2 attacks for example, and WS4/5), so we gave him 4 WS earlier. In the end-game, the barbarian continues to perform subpar, so we've improved the berserk ability to help it keep up.

Eternus
20-10-2011, 12:37
The special rule on his card starts with "Each turn [...]". So you roll until you get a total of 6 (Roll+kill count). The disaster result (1) doesn't make you stop, it's just an epic fail. The only way you'll stop rolling is when you go berserk, or combat ends.

Anyway, after playing alot with the character, we've settled with

- Increases Weapon Skill to 4 by Level 2 (and then follows normal chart progression)
- + 1 Strenght at Level 6, which is a pretty useless level to begin with.
- + 1 on the ale house results (barbarian's "special" location)
- Berserk improved to +2 attacks at hero level and +3 attacks at Lord level
- His furs do not incur penalties if worn with chainmail.

Basically we compensate for the lack of value in his skills, the lack of a special location or magic items by increasing the prowess of the barbarian at levels he pales compared to others. He's one of the few characters to start with S4, so it's normal that he'd end up stronger than most. He doesn't have a special location, but the alehouse is pretty much where barbarians go.

The dwarf not only get alehouse bonus, but also better skills and a useful special location. As soon as they hit lvl 2, many characters get even much better than barbarians (having 2 attacks for example, and WS4/5), so we gave him 4 WS earlier. In the end-game, the barbarian continues to perform subpar, so we've improved the berserk ability to help it keep up.

I like this, and will probably use it if you don't mind! After all these days a northman that keeps progressing along the path that all those living under the influence of the polar gate do, then he could end up as a Chaos Lord with Strength and Toughness of 5 and WS8!

Oakwolf
21-10-2011, 17:17
Of course, feel free to use those changes. In fact i encourage people to test it.

I've had much more fun with it with the changes. It's silly how a simple change of WS at lvl 2 can make the barbarian feel less gimped (as a precision, the change only affects level 2, so he keeps was 4 at lvl 3 and so on). This means he'll still end up at WS6 at the end of the chart, but by then, the berserk ability will make up for this very well.

As for the original stats, i assume they are closer to Marauder than Chaos Warriors.

Eternus
22-10-2011, 13:46
Of course, feel free to use those changes. In fact i encourage people to test it.

I've had much more fun with it with the changes. It's silly how a simple change of WS at lvl 2 can make the barbarian feel less gimped (as a precision, the change only affects level 2, so he keeps was 4 at lvl 3 and so on). This means he'll still end up at WS6 at the end of the chart, but by then, the berserk ability will make up for this very well.

As for the original stats, i assume they are closer to Marauder than Chaos Warriors.

Well, all Chaos Warriors begin life as Marauders though don't they...

Necanthrope
22-10-2011, 23:55
Well, all Chaos Warriors begin life as Marauders though don't they...

Not if they "defect" from the empire :D
I'm planning on using marauders to represent regular chaos warriors in WHQ and only using real chaos warriors to represent champions at the higher battle levels.

As for the Barbarian tweaks suggested here I think they are spot on. A little buff for his WS makes all the difference, and his strength really should increase at level 6.

Eternus
24-10-2011, 14:03
I have been considering some kind of low level Eye Of The Gods table for the Barbarian...? He gets certain 'bonuses' depending on how well he's doing during an adventure, but some could be good, some not so good.

Oakwolf
24-10-2011, 15:57
Well, i think there's some flexibility with the background of a chaos warrior.

Middenheimers going wrong could definitely fit the bill. As well, how about a brettonian knight being perverted by slaanesh. There is a need for a "regular" human fighter, too :p

Eternus
01-11-2011, 15:36
Having recently been re-reading a lot of the rules and the RP book, I have to ask the question 'is the Barbarian really that bad?' I mean, he gains luck and skills faster than some other characters, and has the potential for more starting wounds than most others, especially at higher levels, as well as having access to most equipment types. Fair enough he doesn't have his own special equipment as it were, but the benefits of being the party leader have already been noted here, so the only thing that is really a drawback is the Beserk rule. It's a pain to be sure when you roll a 1, but to be honest I think the simplest house rule for this is to say that every adjacent model takes a wound, not just Warriors, which I think is both more realistic and fairer. That alone would make me happy enough with the Barbarian without changing anything else.

Necanthrope
02-11-2011, 20:01
I think the problem with the Barbarian is not that he is bad, just that most other warriors become so much better at higher levels. He might get lots of skills, but they are of much less value than the skills or special locations of the other warriors.

Oakwolf
04-11-2011, 14:59
@eternus

As mentionned above, it is mainly problematic in a campaign mode. For one-off games it brings a "silly" factor that makes up for its random performance.

It also doesn't take that much to make him just as interesting as the other fighters, as shown with our modification lists.