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b4z
11-07-2011, 12:26
[Having just read this... http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89458]

Dark Elf Sorceress [inside a unit with a Dark Elf Supreme Sorceress] with the Lore of Death successfully casts Spirit Leech on a Skaven Plague Furnace... with Skaven Plague Priest ontop and pushed by 30 Skaven Plague Monks.

Dark Elf Sorceress = Ld 8, Dark Elf Supreme Sorceress = Ld 9, Skaven Plague Furnace = Ld 0, Skaven Plague Priest = Ld 6

Is it...

1] D6+8 vs D6+0
2] D6+8 vs D6+6
3] D6+9 vs D6+0
4] D6+9 vs D6+6


--------------------
Warhammer Rulebook P.171

Spirit Leech is a direct damage spell with a range of 12" that targets a single enemy model (even a character in a unit). Both caster and target roll a D6 and add their respective unmodified Leadership values. For every point the caster wins by, the target suffer a wound, with no amour saves allowed. The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to 24". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 10+.

--------------------

Warhammer Rulebook FAQ 1.4

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

--------------------

Skaven Army Book FAQ 1.4

Q. What is the Leadership value of a Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace? (p43 & p48)
A. Ld 0.

--------------------

T10
11-07-2011, 12:30
this.Equals(1)

-T10

b4z
11-07-2011, 13:33
"Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit."

The highest Leadership characteristic in the Dark Elf Sorceress Unit is Ld 9 [from the Dark Elf Supreme Sorceress]

the highest Leadership characteristic in the Skaven Plague Furnace Unit is Ld 6 [from the Skaven Plague Priest]

So.... why not...

4] D6+9 vs D6+6

T10
11-07-2011, 13:45
The plague furnace is not a unit, it is a model. I fear GW dropped the ball on this in their FAQ as they fail to distinguish between a unit that takes a Leadership test and a model that takes a leadership test.

-T10

Mid'ean
11-07-2011, 14:14
And spirit leech isn't a Ld test.

T10
11-07-2011, 14:40
The important thing is that the spell targets a model, and it's the caster and the target model's Leadership that comes into play.

I think it's fair to take into account GW ruling on characteristics tests, where they make i clear that if the unit takes the test it uses the best characteristic value, but if it's a model that takes the test it uses it's own characteristic value.

-T10

Lex
11-07-2011, 15:05
The FAQ answer does not apply to Spirit Leech insofar as the unit is concernced since as has already been pointed out it is not a Leadership Test. You can single out a location of a multi-part model so you take that location's value and add it to the roll of a D6. Answer is 1.

Tregar
11-07-2011, 15:13
The FAQ answer does apply as it is worded, in my opinion. It says what it says: unmodified leadership is highest LD in unit. Answer is 4.

decker_cky
11-07-2011, 17:58
The answer is 6. The FAQ question isn't even about leadership tests....it's about unmodified leadership (notice test is only used to frame a more generic question, and a generic answer is given).

Yrrdead
11-07-2011, 19:52
As much as I love decker I have to disagree. The FAQ is directly referencing leadership tests. It isn't stated in the second sentence because it was already stated it in the first sentence and avoids redundancy (just guessing but just as valid as your generic frame inference.) Treating FAQ questions and answers broadly and generically instead of as specifically as humanly possibly is a very slippery slope and one I avoid at all costs.

The answer is 1.

decker_cky
11-07-2011, 22:30
As much as I love decker I have to disagree. The FAQ is directly referencing leadership tests. It isn't stated in the second sentence because it was already stated it in the first sentence and avoids redundancy (just guessing but just as valid as your generic frame inference.) Treating FAQ questions and answers broadly and generically instead of as specifically as humanly possibly is a very slippery slope and one I avoid at all costs.

The answer is 1.

The form of the question is "Here is a specific situation I've come across. What is mechanic X?" The situation is an unmodified leadership test, and the mechanic is unmodified leadership.

If you don't use the FAQ, then unmodified leadership is undefined. Are you really suggesting that there's more evidence to using something other than the highest leadership in the unit? Personally, I read that FAQ as 95% certain on the highest leadership in the unit (it's not perfectly clear), with zero evidence with regards to any other interpretation.

Here's a thread on TWF that nicely hashes out several alternative arguments and shows why they're based on misconceptions:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89458

Kevlar
11-07-2011, 23:18
Actually the furnace would be leadership 6 + x, where x is the current rank bonus of the Skaven unit. SiN applies to all leadership based tests.

decker_cky
11-07-2011, 23:53
"Do not include any modifiers from any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell."

From the FAQ.

Lord Zarkov
11-07-2011, 23:54
Actually the furnace would be leadership 6 + x, where x is the current rank bonus of the Skaven unit. SiN applies to all leadership based tests.

But not if the Unmodified Ld is required (like here)

Yrrdead
12-07-2011, 00:29
While I appreciate the link I didn't see anything new there to sway me. I'll be the first to admit that I could be wrong but I see the FAQ as having very little to do with spirit leech. I think that people are reading too much into this.

Spirit leech: compare caster ld + d6 vs target ld + d6. That's it , I didn't need an FAQ and quite frankly I don't think anyone else did either which is why it wasn't FAQ'd.

In fact I would say that this FAQ has caused more questions in regards to spirit leech ( which I still contend it wasn't even addressing) than existed in the first place.

decker_cky
12-07-2011, 00:40
What is unmodified leadership? Find me a reference in the rules.

Lord Zarkov
12-07-2011, 00:42
What is unmodified leadership? Find me a reference in the rules.

You could always used the English Language definition of 'unmodified' which is the default for an 'undefined' term...

However the FAQ does define an 'unmodified leadership' so you should probably use that - however wierd it may be

decker_cky
12-07-2011, 00:48
You could always used the English Language definition of 'unmodified' which is the default for an 'undefined' term...

However the FAQ does define an 'unmodified leadership' so you should probably use that - however wierd it may be

Bingo. Tons of game mechanics are defined giving different definitions than the dictionary would suggest. If there's a definition of a concept within the ruleset, ignore what the dictionary says.

Yrrdead
12-07-2011, 01:24
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.


You needed an FAQ to define unmodified for you? No. I don't think you did, nor do I think anyone else did either. It doesn't need a reference.

The FAQ is meant to address the slightly more sticky situation involved with leadership tests. The big clue to this is the little page number in parentheses after it.

Again I realize your point Decker , I even recognize that RAW you have a better argument, I just don't believe that it is correct. When an FAQ isn't specifiicly addressing something then I am extremely hesitant to change the way a spell works radically because of said FAQ.

Lord Solar Plexus
12-07-2011, 06:11
The plague furnace is not a unit, it is a model.

Of course it is a unit. That's irrelevant though because it is in a unit and that happens to have a highest Ld.


And spirit leech isn't a Ld test.

Doesn't matter either. You will still have to use the unmodified leadership.

T10
12-07-2011, 08:53
Of course it is a unit. That's irrelevant though because it is in a unit and that happens to have a highest Ld.


Rather than just blurting out "Wrong!" I will also ask "What makes you think a model that is part of a combined unit still counts as a unit on its own?"

The reason this is relevant is while the plague furnace is in a unit he'll benefit from things that affect the unit, e.g. Magic Resistance.

-T10

Lord Solar Plexus
12-07-2011, 09:12
A model that is part of a unit is not a unit in its own right anymore, barring certain exceptions. Single models are units of their own until they join another unit. The PF does that before the game, so being a unit in its own right loses all relevance immediately because it doesn't apply.

T10
12-07-2011, 09:55
A model that is part of a unit is not a unit in its own right anymore, barring certain exceptions. Single models are units of their own until they join another unit. The PF does that before the game, so being a unit in its own right loses all relevance immediately because it doesn't apply.

Within the current context of the thread, the plague furnace is just a model targeted by the Spirit Leech spell.

Even so, the Plague furnace will only count as a "unit in its own right" if a) all the plague monks are dead and b) the plague pries is dead. Otherwise it is just a character mount. It's no more a "plague furnace model" than Kurt Helborg is "a warhorse model".

-T10

b4z
12-07-2011, 23:45
Hmmm... still inconclusive...

The FAQ on unmodified Leadership really didnt clear things up as it should have.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-07-2011, 10:07
Within the current context of the thread, the plague furnace is just a model targeted by the Spirit Leech spell.


Quite so. That is why I clearly and explicitly stated that its [pre-game/everyone else dead] state as a unit is irrelevant.



Otherwise it is just a character mount. It's no more a "plague furnace model" than Kurt Helborg is "a warhorse model".


You're muddying the water with those attributes. It is a model, and it is in a unit which has a highest Ld, assuming b4z's preconditions. This highest Ld is the modifier modifying the unmodified Ld of the target.

I realize it is illogical to call a modified value unmodified. I did say so as soon as that FAQ went live. Nevertheless, there is only one definition of Unmodified Ld, so the answer is 4).

ihavetoomuchminis
13-07-2011, 11:59
Then, if unmodified Leadership doen't take SiN into account, a steadfast skaven warrior unit not including characthers is Leadership 5 when they lose a combat round?

Lord Solar Plexus
13-07-2011, 12:31
I think you are confusing things here. If they had to test on their unmodified Ld, they would be Ld 5.

Losing combat and/or being steadfast does not cause anyone to test on their unmodified Ld. In this case, you can add Inspiring Presence, Standard of Discipline, SiN or spell effects into the equation. Steadfast or stubborn only negates all negative modifiers from losing the combat.

nzkoston
03-08-2011, 02:45
If someone were to do the same on my hellcannon then I would say i would have to use my hellcannons leadership of 2. As it says target a model. Personally i would expect my opponent to allow me the same opportunity on their plague furnace.

I agree with yrrdead in the fact that this entire thing has been over analyzed. Casting mage vs target model's LD.

Iraf
03-08-2011, 04:36
Then, if unmodified Leadership doen't take SiN into account, a steadfast skaven warrior unit not including characthers is Leadership 5 when they lose a combat round?

No, steadfast has been changed from unmodified leadership tests to:

“Steadfast units don’t apply the difference in combat result scores to Break tests.”

wingate32
03-08-2011, 08:51
I think that it's number one due to the fact that it isn't a leadership test the spell requires. It's simply a roll-off which applies the ld value of the model and since you can target the plague furnace separatly it should be rolled against it's LD value of 0

DeathlessDraich
03-08-2011, 13:03
Dark Elf Sorceress [inside a unit with a Dark Elf Supreme Sorceress] with the Lore of Death successfully casts Spirit Leech on a Skaven Plague Furnace... with Skaven Plague Priest ontop and pushed by 30 Skaven Plague Monks.
Is it...

1] D6+8 vs D6+0
2] D6+8 vs D6+6
3] D6+9 vs D6+0
4] D6+9 vs D6+6

Skaven Army Book FAQ 1.4

Q. What is the Leadership value of a Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace? (p43 & p48)
A. Ld 0.


1) A well laid out question with all the rules ... but there's 1 more FAQ to be included which narrows down the possible outcome to just 2. :)

2) Paraphrasing this FAQ, in my own words, it states that for spells that isolates models, the caster can choose which element of a multi-element model, as the target.

3) In this case the lvl 2 Sorceress has targeted the mount, the Furnace.

Therefore only your (1) or (2) can be correct. - caster's Ld against the mount's Ld.

4) The Skaven FAQ is unclear about which Ld should be chosen as the 'mounts Ld'. Normally a mount's Ld is the rider's but if the mount is isolated, it will the mount's. The FAQ simply affirms that the Bell/Furnace Ld is 0
without mentioning whether this is the Ld used when mounted or not
i.e. it could be referring to the Bell/Furnace's Ld when it is on its own after the Grey Seer has been slain.

5) Furthermore both the Bell/Furnace are Unique and therefore only its rules matter. There is no mention of Ld in the Bell/Furnace rules and so any decision on how its Ld is chosen (when it is specifically targeted) can only be conjecture.

Roll a dice to choose your (1) or (2) :)

b4z
03-08-2011, 13:50
...but there's 1 more FAQ to be included which narrows down the possible outcome to just 2.

...it states that for spells that isolates models, the caster can choose which element of a multi-element model, as the target.

Warhammer Rulebook FAQ 1.4

Q: Can spells that pick out individual models, even if they are
in a unit, choose what is hit when targeting a model with multiple
locations? For example The Fate of Bjuna is cast at an Orc Warboss
on a Wyvern, the caster can choose to target the Warboss or the
Wyvern and it will be resolved against the Toughness of the target.
(Reference)

A: Yes.

drear
03-08-2011, 14:27
i never understadn why so much cpmplex discussion comes out of somthing simple.

the spell says the caster uses her unmodified leadership, and the target uses his.

so the target is the monk? ld6, and the caster is the lvl2, ld8

if the caster is the supreme sorceress, ld9, if the target is the furnace ld0

decker_cky
03-08-2011, 19:11
i never understadn why so much cpmplex discussion comes out of somthing simple.

the spell says the caster uses her unmodified leadership, and the target uses his.

so the target is the monk? ld6, and the caster is the lvl2, ld8

if the caster is the supreme sorceress, ld9, if the target is the furnace ld0

It's a complex discussion because people keep confusing it and assuming it plays wrong like you just did. Very simple question....if you use the unmodified leadership rule.

a18no
24-10-2011, 02:53
I'm*sorry decker, but you are exagerating in there. the correct FQ specificaly cover a situation for a Leadership test.

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

The FAQ for unmodified leadership can only be used in a LEADERSHIP test situation. Any other situation is pure speculation. the question part is very clear on that. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but only that you are using the FAQ out of his context. you remember that when a unit do a LD test, it is done at the highest ld of the unit. Reading the FAQ with this situation in mind make it clear that the unmodified leadership value is the best in the unit, when doing a leadership test. keep everything in the right situation please.

dementian
24-10-2011, 03:13
I think it is silly how this spell can even be used on the Plague Furnace at all...Its a big inanimate warmachine...how can you leach it's nonexistant spirit?

Edit: With that off my chest it should play as 1) since it is not a leadership test but a roll-off imho

Zentdiam
24-10-2011, 06:46
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

But is that above statement inclusive? It doesn't seem to change the fact that the question is "what is your unmodified leadership? A: quoted text." That FAQ shows that for all cases an unmodified leadership is the answer.

Mr_Rose
24-10-2011, 09:54
Yeah. There are two sentences in the first paragraph of the quoted FAQ; one is a simple statement, one is a question. The next paragraph answers the question. It does not refer to or otherwise interact with the statement.
You can tell because deleting the statement from the first paragraph does not alter the meaning of either the question or the response.

T10
24-10-2011, 11:34
It seems to me that the FAQ misses the distinction between a model's Leadership and a unit's Leadership. Sometimes a test will apply to the unit and sometimes to a specific model in a unit.

-T10

Lathrael
24-10-2011, 12:20
Answer is 1. Unmodified leadership of a unit is unmodified LD of highest LD model in the unit. But spirit leech targets the model instead the unit, so you will not use unit's ld, likewise you cannot fit a dark elf lord to unit to use leech with LD10.

a18no
24-10-2011, 15:47
But is that above statement inclusive? It doesn't seem to change the fact that the question is "what is your unmodified leadership? A: quoted text." That FAQ shows that for all cases an unmodified leadership is the answer.

You understand what's a FAQ?? It's a Frenquently ask question. It's a question, not a rule. A rule is supposed to cover any situation, a question can be aske in a particular situation.

It that particular question, we have 2 part: a context, and a question. You can't take the question out of it's context to make a conclusion, you have to keep it in the context.

Tregar
24-10-2011, 16:22
It is possible to put too much emphasis on the context, however. The start is more framing the question, giving us a situation that uses unmodified leadership. The answer given is general however- whether that's intentional or not can be debated, but it says what it says.

Here's an example:
"-A flaming cannonball hits a High Elf Prince on Griffon in Dragon Armour. Does his mount get a 2+ ward save against it as well?
-Yes, the Dragon Armour protects the mount as well."
In this made-up FAQ question, the person is giving a specific situation regarding dragon armour. The answer is general, and would apply to all situations where a mount's rider has dragon armour.

a18no
24-10-2011, 18:01
It is possible to put too much emphasis on the context, however. The start is more framing the question, giving us a situation that uses unmodified leadership. The answer given is general however- whether that's intentional or not can be debated, but it says what it says.

Here's an example:
"-A flaming cannonball hits a High Elf Prince on Griffon in Dragon Armour. Does his mount get a 2+ ward save against it as well?
-Yes, the Dragon Armour protects the mount as well."
In this made-up FAQ question, the person is giving a specific situation regarding dragon armour. The answer is general, and would apply to all situations where a mount's rider has dragon armour.

Using your way to read a FAQ, I can conclude with what you said that the mount get a 5+ armor save. Since "dragon armour protects the mount as well", so I get a griffon with 5+ save.. THANKS.

Understand? Always stick to the exact context. Don't make a FAQ say somehting it doesn't.

Tregar
24-10-2011, 19:09
Yes, great example of how one needs to apply some of his own brainpower to the words of a rule/FAQ, and not go full-retard in either direction ;)

Seriously though, your counter is duff anyway as "protects" does not mean give a 5+ armour save. In this context it means giving the ward save. An example of going too far with the unmodified FAQ would be to assume it works the same with characteristic tests. Instead, it says and does what it says. Still. And no amount of bad analogies from me will change that :D

dementian
24-10-2011, 22:44
See this is the problem, giving a general answer like that can still be viewed as a specific. In your fake FAQ answer you should specify, either In that case the mount would receive a 2+ ward save as well or Yes, the Dragon Armour gives the Griffon a 2+ ward save at all times.

FAQs need to answer the question and not leave room for interpretation.

RanaldLoec
25-10-2011, 00:55
Spirit leech targets the plague furnace.

Is the plague priest mounted on the furnace.

If so isn't the highest leadership of the two used as the furnace is a mount?

If the plunge priest isn't mounted on the furnace ignore the above I just can't be bothered to pull out my Skaven book to check.

TsukeFox
25-10-2011, 16:08
So...let us change the target...spirit leech targets a dragon mounted by someone with higher leadership. Whos leadership is used-?

The riders ld correct -?

dementian
25-10-2011, 16:30
I would think you would use the Dragon's Leadership. Same as you should use the plague furnace's leadership, as you should use the caster's leadership score.

Mid'ean
25-10-2011, 17:13
I would think you would use the Dragon's Leadership. Same as you should use the plague furnace's leadership, as you should use the caster's leadership score.

Correct. Spirit leach is a magic users sniper spell. You pick a target, which can be a mount, character or whatever. And you go toe to toe with your LD's. Nobody else gets involved. No loaning of LD. Not riders, not mounts, nobody. Just you and your target.

Tregar
25-10-2011, 17:20
They both get to use the highest Ld in the unit ;)

If you play at pretty much any UK or ETC tournament, this is what they will rule. And these are wiser people than me :D

a18no
25-10-2011, 18:50
They both get to use the highest Ld in the unit ;)

If you play at pretty much any UK or ETC tournament, this is what they will rule. And these are wiser people than me :D

It's strange that here, you seem to be alone and you say that ETC are with you?? Can I see a topic of them?

Tregar
25-10-2011, 20:16
Well, there's two sides: there's one side that reads the FAQ, accepts what it says, maybe even agrees that it's a bit silly, and gets on with it. The other side has determined the FAQ does not say what it says except in the exact specific circumstance described in the FAQ. It's quite funny when you consider that some of the same people are using another FAQ question (as posted by b4z last page, as used by Midean above) to answer the question... almost as if, FAQ answers don't always apply solely to the single situation that is used in the question to frame what's going on ;)

To answer your question, the topic with the answers is http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=86122 in section "Other", number 29. Discussion is not posted, but the FAQ group is made up of several of the smartest players across several countries. Do note, they are not infallible and have sometimes changed the rules, but in this case, it's a RAW answer.

TsukeFox
25-10-2011, 21:08
So best When hit by a template each part of a mounted model test
On their own Stats-

But when taged by a spell-you use the best stat. Answer sold thanks ETC-!

a18no
25-10-2011, 21:10
Well, there's two sides: there's one side that reads the FAQ, accepts what it says, maybe even agrees that it's a bit silly, and gets on with it. The other side has determined the FAQ does not say what it says except in the exact specific circumstance described in the FAQ. It's quite funny when you consider that some of the same people are using another FAQ question (as posted by b4z last page, as used by Midean above) to answer the question... almost as if, FAQ answers don't always apply solely to the single situation that is used in the question to frame what's going on ;)


Be careful with this type of answer. I can say the exact same thing. You're reading only a part of the FAQ, not everything just because you absolutly want it to come to your conclusion. So you are actually the one who is not reading the FAQ and don't want to accept it.

We can enter in a very bad discussion that will come to no end.

Their's one thing I keep saying in all the rule answer: make it clear with your opponent and everything is possible, nothing can be wrong or bad. So since you're playing in the ETC environment, the way you play it is perfect and respected by all player. But you must agree that the rule is not clear and we can play it like that if we agree on it.

Tregar
25-10-2011, 22:03
Well, in the very line in my post that you have bolded I note that it my side's definition is somewhat silly (And I don't mean to say the other side hasn't read the rules, just that they choose to decide it doesn't apply), so I don't think you have to worry about me taking the moral high ground :)

However, I do note there is certain hypocrisy from your side (re: insisting the FAQ is specific to one situation, while also using another FAQ answer about something else to help resolve the situation) which is pretty unfortunate. Finally, I'm left to ponder, why should unmodified leadership mean two different things, one for leadership tests, and the other for other things (Like LD attacks)? The entire principle of "unmodified leadership" only turns up a handful of times across the entire game, it seems needlessly counterintuitive to have two different definitions for those few circumstances. And it's counter-intuitive to begin with!

(TsukeFox, it's not really the difference between spells vs templates that you should note, it's that leadership has its own special rule differentiating it as a special, different case when it comes to characteristics. By ETC rules, if a spell existed that did LD-based damage through a magical vortex, then each part would be hit and each part would use the best LD available. It's not THAT weird a concept if you think about it: you can take advantage of someone's superior leadership qualities, but you don'r get tougher by standing near them!)

a18no
26-10-2011, 20:25
Well, in the very line in my post that you have bolded I note that it my side's definition is somewhat silly (And I don't mean to say the other side hasn't read the rules, just that they choose to decide it doesn't apply), so I don't think you have to worry about me taking the moral high ground :)

However, I do note there is certain hypocrisy from your side (re: insisting the FAQ is specific to one situation, while also using another FAQ answer about something else to help resolve the situation) which is pretty unfortunate. Finally, I'm left to ponder, why should unmodified leadership mean two different things, one for leadership tests, and the other for other things (Like LD attacks)? The entire principle of "unmodified leadership" only turns up a handful of times across the entire game, it seems needlessly counterintuitive to have two different definitions for those few circumstances. And it's counter-intuitive to begin with!

(TsukeFox, it's not really the difference between spells vs templates that you should note, it's that leadership has its own special rule differentiating it as a special, different case when it comes to characteristics. By ETC rules, if a spell existed that did LD-based damage through a magical vortex, then each part would be hit and each part would use the best LD available. It's not THAT weird a concept if you think about it: you can take advantage of someone's superior leadership qualities, but you don'r get tougher by standing near them!)

Actually, the term "unmodified leadership" as the same definition no matter which context you place it in.

BUT, to use the best leadership among a unit (no matter for what), you NEED to be in a context of leadership TEST. Any other situation where you use a leadership would be on the model own value.

Using that: an unmodified leadership test, would use the best value in the unit with no modification. And a effect that work with the leadership value for anything not related with leadership test (let say spirit leech ;)) would use the leadership of the model with no modification. Its the same Same rule, but in different context. I'm just saying that you can't use the part "best among unit" for justification on spirit leech effect since it's not a leadership test.

You can see in the BRB that ANY leadership test will use the best value in the unit. The difference is that you can't use inspiring presence with an unmodified leadership test but you still use the best value in the unit. The FAQ just make it clear that the term "unmodified" don't tromp the rule "best among the unit". Or we can say that "best among the unit" is not a "modificator" for leadership test, but a normal rule.

Hope that help clear up my understanding of the rule.

Lord Solar Plexus
27-10-2011, 19:02
You understand what's a FAQ?? It's a Frenquently ask question. It's a question, not a rule. A rule is supposed to cover any situation, a question can be aske in a particular situation.


I see that you clearly do not understand what a FAQ is. While the abbreviation superficially only refers to questions, a FAQ includes answers as well, and these answers are rules.


So...let us change the target...spirit leech targets a dragon mounted by someone with higher leadership. Whos leadership is used-?

The riders ld correct -?

The highest in the unit, which a priori could be the Dragon's OR the rider's.


Correct. Spirit leach is a magic users sniper spell. You pick a target, which can be a mount, character or whatever. And you go toe to toe with your LD's. Nobody else gets involved. No loaning of LD. Not riders, not mounts, nobody. Just you and your target.


Wrong. Spirit leach is a magic users sniper spell. You pick a target, which can be a mount, character or whatever. And you go toe to toe with your LD's, modified by any other model that happens to be in this unit and has a higher Ld, as clearly and unambiguously stated in the rules.



BUT, to use the best leadership among a unit (no matter for what), you NEED to be in a context of leadership TEST. Any other situation where you use a leadership would be on the model own value.


Any situation that encompasses unmodified leadership works exactly the same, and so in any such sitution the unmodified leadership value can be modified.

Feel free to state the page number where your supposed rule can be found and I eat my hat. As things stand, you have made that interpretation up.

jtrowell
28-10-2011, 09:51
Spirit leech is *not* a Ld test, and this is very important, it means that many things won't be useable with it, you cannot ignore this simple fact.

- The rule that say to use the hightest Ld in the unit (BRB page 10) is under a section titled "Leadership tests"

- The BSB reroll only works for Ld tests, so won't be useable for this spell

- the inspiring presence of the general could in theory, but it is explicitly excluded by the "unmodified leadership" of both the caster and target

- the FAQ about using the highest Ld in a unit is in response about Leadership tests, so it is discutable to use it outside this contexte, and even if you do, it could be interpreted as explaining what is the "unmodified Ld" of an *unit*, while spirit leech target a lone model (or part of a model for multi-parts like ridden monsters)

Mid'ean
28-10-2011, 12:00
Wrong. Spirit leach is a magic users sniper spell. You pick a target, which can be a mount, character or whatever. And you go toe to toe with your LD's, modified by any other model that happens to be in this unit and has a higher Ld, as clearly and unambiguously stated in the rules.


Sorry but what part of "unmodified" do you fail to undestand? Using someone elses LD when the spell specifically says use each models LD is NOT using that models unmodified ld. As said by myself and others this is NOT a LD test. The spell is pretty specific and pretty simple on how it works. Compare unmodified X against unmodified Y and roll the dice. As clearly and unambiguously stated in the rules.

decker_cky
28-10-2011, 18:17
Spirit leech is *not* a Ld test, and this is very important, it means that many things won't be useable with it, you cannot ignore this simple fact.

- The rule that say to use the hightest Ld in the unit (BRB page 10) is under a section titled "Leadership tests"

- The BSB reroll only works for Ld tests, so won't be useable for this spell

- the inspiring presence of the general could in theory, but it is explicitly excluded by the "unmodified leadership" of both the caster and target

- the FAQ about using the highest Ld in a unit is in response about Leadership tests, so it is discutable to use it outside this contexte, and even if you do, it could be interpreted as explaining what is the "unmodified Ld" of an *unit*, while spirit leech target a lone model (or part of a model for multi-parts like ridden monsters)

The FAQ raises unmodified leadership tests as an instance of unmodified leadership, then answers a general definition of what unmodified leadership is. The FAQ applies to all instances of "unmodified leadership," whether it be a test or not.

a18no
28-10-2011, 18:31
A funny situation:

Q If I'am eating a vegetarian pizza, what am I eating?
A: You're eating a pizza with no meat

So I can conclude that you don't like meat because you're only eating vegetarian pizza.

The FAQ only answer a question to ONE guy, the guy was asking "when taking a ld test, you're sometime taking it on an unmodified ld value", the guy who answered him only say that you use the best value in the unit. It's still in the case that you are doing a ld test.

I can't imagine ETC organizer letting that go. They are doing comp tournement and allow some strange ruling that could only be abuse...

Never mind: if you play in a tournement that rule it like that, perfect, it's clear at the start of the game, no complaining during matches. I'm still not OK with that, but we won't fight each other only for a little thing like that.

Yrrdead
29-10-2011, 19:45
A funny situation:

Q If I'am eating a vegetarian pizza, what am I eating?
A: You're eating a pizza with no meat

So I can conclude that you don't like meat because you're only eating vegetarian pizza.


That is a fallacious conclusion.

The only conclusion you can reach from the above statement is made in your answer. That I've eaten a pizza with no meat. No additional conclusions can be made.

sulla
29-10-2011, 22:46
A funny situation:

Q If I'am eating a vegetarian pizza, what am I eating?
A: You're eating a pizza with no meat

So I can conclude that you don't like meat because you're only eating vegetarian pizza.

The FAQ only answer a question to ONE guy, the guy was asking "when taking a ld test, you're sometime taking it on an unmodified ld value", the guy who answered him only say that you use the best value in the unit. It's still in the case that you are doing a ld test.

Except that the FAQ question asked a specific question and the answer gave a generic answer about 'Unmodified Leadership'.

If your question was "I'm eating a vegatarian pizza, does it contain dairy products?" and the answer was, "Pizza contains dairy products in the cheese and base.", you would be closer to the FAQ in content.

Lex
30-10-2011, 15:52
I wonder if any of the answers (replies here) would be different if the questions was phrased:

"When I take a leadership test with my unmodified leadership, what is my unmodified leadership?"

With the exact same answer as the FAQ question.

Edit: changed for a little more clarity.

decker_cky
30-10-2011, 16:57
That's a very different question.

sulla
30-10-2011, 18:51
I wonder if any of the answers would be different if the questions was phrased:

"When I take a leadership test with my unmodified leadership, what is my unmodified leadership?"

Exact same answer.A better question would be, "What is unmodified leadership?"

jtrowell
30-10-2011, 22:58
And for that one, you could very well imagine one anwser for the context of leadership tests of an unit ("use the maximum value found in the unit, ignore outside sources") and another for the contexte of a lone model ("use maximum value of the model, ignore outside sources/modifiers")

Lex
31-10-2011, 19:18
That's a very different question.

Why do you think it's a very different question? Using the comma in place of the period doesn't necessarily change the meaning. The two can mean the exact same and if you believe that my phrasing would have a different answer, then the FAQ likewise would. I also think that the FAQ answer regarding choosing different locations for a Toughness test does provide a contradiction to what many have proposed.

dementian
01-11-2011, 02:33
I wonder if any of the answers would be different if the questions was phrased:

"When I take a leadership test with my unmodified leadership, what is my unmodified leadership?"

Exact same answer.

And I wonder what answer would be given if someone asked specifically about Spirit Leach.