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SacredCow
11-07-2011, 22:32
How do items and abilities that interact with Miscasts interact with Arcane Fulcrum Miscasts?

Would Teclis still roll on the Arcane Fulcrum Miscast table for his first miscast of a turn, or does he avoid both miscast results due to rolling a double 6 while on a fulcrum?

Can a Slann pass off an Arcane Fulcrum Miscast with the Cupped Hands?

Can an Infernal Puppet adjust the result of an Arcane Fulcrum Miscast?

Inquiring minds want to know!

decker_cky
11-07-2011, 22:48
My interpretation is that anything that suffers a miscast has both lined up, and some abilities let you ignore a miscast, not an arcane fulcrum miscast. Teclis ignores the first miscast but still rolls on the other table.

The bearded one
12-07-2011, 02:34
A miscast isn't an arcane fulcrum miscast, so I'd say no. They seem similar and related, but technically speaking they are worlds apart. Abilities affecting miscasts specifically affect miscasts, nothing else, so no fulcrum miscasts either.

NTJ2010
12-07-2011, 06:24
It is worded as, if a wizard suffers a miscast while on an arcane fulcrum they also suffer an arcane fulcrum miscast.

So if you have an ability that allows you ignore a miscast (such as teclis once per turn) then it is just that, ignore the FULL miscast once per turn (as the model did not suffer a miscast and therefore does not suffer an arcane miscast)

As for the cupped hands I would say the model will suffer a normal miscast if they are not on a fulcrum and both miscasts if they are (so if he threw the miscast onto another wizard on a fulcrum they will take both) by the same above reasoning.

I would say the infernal puppet could be used on the arcane fulcrum...not because I have an argument there but just because it sounds fun.

decker_cky
12-07-2011, 08:07
Infernal puppet reduces the fun of all miscast tables so that shouldn't be an argument.

Lord Zarkov
12-07-2011, 10:49
As a result, he must not only roll of the standard Miscast table win the Warhammer rulebook but, after he has done so, must also roll on the Arcane Fulcrum Miscast table emphasis mine.

I would say that this implies that if you don't roll on the regular miscast table for some reason you don't roll on the Arcane Fulcrum one.

GodlessM
12-07-2011, 12:21
Arcane Fulcrum miscast is still a miscast so interacts with such things normally, so Puppet can move it, Slann can throw it at someone, Teclis ignores the normal miscast but then has to take the Arcane Fulcrum miscast, etc.

Lord Zarkov
12-07-2011, 12:34
Arcane Fulcrum miscast is still a miscast so interacts with such things normally, so Puppet can move it, Slann can throw it at someone, Teclis ignores the normal miscast but then has to take the Arcane Fulcrum miscast, etc.

It's not a second miscast though, it's simply a second table to roll on as an additional consequence to your miscast.

Slyther
12-07-2011, 16:59
It won't matter anyway if Teclis does or does not ignore it. He won't have the item because my goblin shaman already stole it. :P

The bearded one
12-07-2011, 20:42
Arcane Fulcrum miscast is still a miscast

No, an arcane fulcrum miscast is not a miscast. They sound the same, they are similar, they both include the 'miscast' part, but they are not the same, just like "infantry" and "monstrous infantry" are similar but not the same, 'turn' and 'player turn' are similar but not the same, magic items and daemonic gifts are similar but not the same, etc.

Arcane fulcrum miscasts, according to the sentence quoted by Lord Zarkov, appear to act as a sort of consequence of a miscast, except for dwarfs who only have to roll on the arcane fulcrum miscast table but not the regular one. However this consequence of a miscast is not the same as a miscast. The problem here would be that you can pass on the miscast, but is the arcane fulcrum miscast also passed on, ignored alltogether, or will still have to be done by the wizard who originally miscast on a fulcrum.

It's very important to take names and concepts very, very literal when dealing rules. Look at it with totally abstract logic untill GW FAQ's it with a totally random and whimsical answer.


It won't matter anyway if Teclis does or does not ignore it. He won't have the item because my goblin shaman already stole it. :P

Sadly Teclis has an ability, not an item. Ruddy elfling..

GodlessM
13-07-2011, 01:45
No, an arcane fulcrum miscast is not a miscast. They sound the same, they are similar, they both include the 'miscast' part, but they are not the same, just like "infantry" and "monstrous infantry" are similar but not the same, 'turn' and 'player turn' are similar but not the same, magic items and daemonic gifts are similar but not the same, etc.

Arcane fulcrum miscasts, according to the sentence quoted by Lord Zarkov, appear to act as a sort of consequence of a miscast, except for dwarfs who only have to roll on the arcane fulcrum miscast table but not the regular one. However this consequence of a miscast is not the same as a miscast. The problem here would be that you can pass on the miscast, but is the arcane fulcrum miscast also passed on, ignored alltogether, or will still have to be done by the wizard who originally miscast on a fulcrum.

It's very important to take names and concepts very, very literal when dealing rules. Look at it with totally abstract logic untill GW FAQ's it with a totally random and whimsical answer.

Sadly Teclis has an ability, not an item. Ruddy elfling..

I now have the Storm of Magic book. An Arcane Fulcrum miscast is a miscast result, so anything that ignores a miscast ignores both table rolls, anything that ignores say the first miscast result only ignores the roll on the first table. Puppet still works on the Arcane Fulcrum miscast (alter miscast roll), Cupped Hands still works (ignore result of a miscast etc, etc.), Earthing Rod can be used on either roll. Teclis however ignores a miscast, not a miscast result, so ignores both rolls.

SacredCow
13-07-2011, 03:07
Thanks for all the insight.

I hate Teclis.

The bearded one
13-07-2011, 12:58
I now have the Storm of Magic book. An Arcane Fulcrum miscast is a miscast result,

why? quote or pagenumber?

It'd be like saying that daemonic gifts are magic items.

Spiney Norman
13-07-2011, 15:53
I now have the Storm of Magic book. An Arcane Fulcrum miscast is a miscast result, so anything that ignores a miscast ignores both table rolls, anything that ignores say the first miscast result only ignores the roll on the first table. Puppet still works on the Arcane Fulcrum miscast (alter miscast roll), Cupped Hands still works (ignore result of a miscast etc, etc.), Earthing Rod can be used on either roll. Teclis however ignores a miscast, not a miscast result, so ignores both rolls.

So my curse charm of tepok can make a wizard reroll on the fulcrum miscast chart.

Regarding a life lore wizard with throne in play, do they make one 2+ save to ignore the rolls on both tables, or a separate roll for each?


why? quote or pagenumber?

It'd be like saying that daemonic gifts are magic items.

No it wouldn't, because the DoC army book specifically says that gifts are NOT magic items and are not effected by things that effect magic items. Its a shame really, I'm sure my Goblin wizard would love to nikkit nikkit your blood thirsters obsidian armour.

Lord Zarkov
13-07-2011, 17:09
So my curse charm of tepok can make a wizard reroll on the fulcrum miscast chart.

Regarding a life lore wizard with throne in play, do they make one 2+ save to ignore the rolls on both tables, or a separate roll for each?


They would roll to ignore the miscast. If they succeed then they don't roll on either table. The Fulcrum table is an additional consequence of a miscast, not an additional miscast. Anything that prevents a miscast from happening stops you rolling on either table, anything that caused a miscast caused both, etc.

The only time you would only ignore one would be if something specifically referred to ignoring the result of the roll on the table, or 'ignore his first Miscast result" ("result" is important, p28 of SoM states the AFM table only happens if you survive your "first Miscast result".)

As an aside I don't believe the Infernal Puppet does work on the Arcane Fulcrum Miscast table. It says you can change the roll on "the Miscast table" (note the definite article) which would refer to "the Miscast table" you're told to roll on in the BRB, and indeed referred to as "the Miscast table" in SoM as something separate from "the Arcane Fulcrum Miscast table".
Now GW may see fit to FAQ it otherwise, but this is how it stands at the moment.

Azrothan
14-07-2011, 11:17
If you're standing on an Arcane Fulcrum and miscast you get a normal miscast, and should you survive, you roll on the arcane fulcrum miscast table.
You do not ignore the Arcane Fulcrum Miscast in any other way - death is the only escape (unless you completely ignore the miscast itself (not Miscast Result, if there are such items), then you should be ok). "if the Wizard dies as a result of the first Miscast result, you do not roll on the Arcane Fulcrum Miscast table"
It's not transfered to another wizard, or whatnot. If you survive your Miscast result (through adjusting the score, giving the miscast to another wizard, etc), you MUST roll on the Arcane Fulcrum Miscast table.
This table cannot be adjusted by items that only adjust the Miscast table - they are separate tables.

For those that believe that you can give your Arcane Fulcrum Miscast to another Wizard - just read the results and know that you've got the ruling wrong:
"All units within D6" of the Arcane Fulcrum"
"Remove the Wizard (and his Arcane Fulcrum) from play"
"The Arcane Fulcrum scatters"
"Randomly select another Arcane Fuclrum ... replacing it with the miscasting Wizard and his fulcrum"
"he must immediately exit the fulcrum"

These things would not be able to happen if you could give it to another wizard, because they might not be on an Arcane Fulcrum. Which means a lot of results would be invalid. Which means that you need to read the rule again and then suffer the result of the Arcane Fulcrum Miscast.

GodlessM
14-07-2011, 23:52
why? quote or pagenumber?

It'd be like saying that daemonic gifts are magic items.

Hardly since one is stated as true in the rules and the other is stated as false.

Ramius4
15-07-2011, 00:09
I now have the Storm of Magic book. An Arcane Fulcrum miscast is a miscast result, so anything that ignores a miscast ignores both table rolls, anything that ignores say the first miscast result only ignores the roll on the first table. Puppet still works on the Arcane Fulcrum miscast (alter miscast roll), Cupped Hands still works (ignore result of a miscast etc, etc.), Earthing Rod can be used on either roll. Teclis however ignores a miscast, not a miscast result, so ignores both rolls.

I haven't seen anything to back that up in the rules. While I'm not flat out saying you're wrong, I can't find anything that would support your case here. And it's not as if there are a lot of actual pages of rules to go through.

Anyways, unless someone could point out an actual passage in the rules stating what you just did, I'll be playing it completely the opposite.

In fact, I hope it is the opposite of what you're saying. I feel there needs to be more of an element of risk to casting some of those big spells. :)

The bearded one
15-07-2011, 00:32
Hardly since one is stated as true in the rules and the other is stated as false.

What if it wasn't stated in the rules? Magic items in other books are either called magic items or stated to be magic items (for example runic items are explicitely stated to be magic items). It might be very confusing as they are incredibly similar, but they are still not the same. Daemonic gifts aren't treated as magic items only because it explicitely states they aren't, they also aren't because they're labelled differently. That alone is enough to differentiate them and anything beyond that is making a leap of logic. It might be a very logical leap of logic, but you have to look at this as abstractly as possible untill GW gives an, often really random, answer.

An arcane fulcrum miscast looks a lot like a miscast, but it's a different name, different cause and different table. I have not seen anything in the rules yet supporting that an arcane fulcrum miscast is affected by abilities or items affecting normal miscasts.

Chipacabra
15-07-2011, 03:26
There's no such thing as an arcane fulcrum miscast, though. There's just miscasts. If you have a miscast on an arcane fulcrum, you also roll on the arcane fulcrum miscast table, but nothing in the rules says that's a second miscast. It's still the same miscast.

The bearded one
15-07-2011, 03:43
There's no such thing as an arcane fulcrum miscast, though. There's just miscasts. If you have a miscast on an arcane fulcrum, you also roll on the arcane fulcrum miscast table, but nothing in the rules says that's a second miscast. It's still the same miscast.

A very good point.

It still doesn't mean abilities affecting normal miscast tables should affect the arcane fulcrum one though, but you should be able to ignore/give away a miscast + arcane fulcrum table roll via abilities such as the cupped hands or throne of vines.