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Demoulius
13-07-2011, 16:33
Hello,

Im working on my empire army and took a look at the lords section. I went abit excited a put a lord for a 2000 points army to paper. Can you guys tell me if hes any good?

Empire general on griffon with sword of power, shroud of magnus, dragonhelm, full plate armour, shield. - 395 points

he has 3 WS5 S6 attacks, a 1+ AS and 3+ ward save (2+ against flaming attacks) and the griffon will have a 5+ save due to the magic resistance as well if im not mistaken :evilgrin: not to mention the 4 WS5 S5 attacks from the griffon as well! all hitting at I5. :cool:

Im sure other armies can do better lords on monstrous mounts but I think its not half bad. What do you guys think?

Malark
13-07-2011, 17:08
From a fluff point of view, it seems fun and you should use it if it feels right. From a competitive perspective, its going to get sniped by war machines and even if he doesn't he won't pay back the points you invested in him :(

Demoulius
13-07-2011, 17:19
He wont be used in tourneys or such, just competetive play :)

Another one i thought of was general, mace of helsturm and helm of discord+armor and such

idea is that if your opponent fails hid LD test you can use the mace to inflict an outhit with S10 that inflicts D6 wounds :cool:

enyoss
13-07-2011, 17:31
Sadly, a tooled up Empire General is one of the most mediocre fighting lords in the game... at best. The griffon helps, but even a modest amount of low strength missile fire or close combat attacks will knock wounds off pretty quickly.

It's not the worst choice in the game: the 18" range for Inspiring Presence is a nice bonus, and a well timed flank charge against infantry would be good as you will get Thunderstomp while eliminating supporting attacks against the griffon.

By all means give him a go. It makes a great centrepiece mode, and I do have to say that having to think about any kind of flying monster is a pain as an opponent. Just don't expect a stellar performance :).

p.s. I'm not 100% familiar with the Empire Magic items, but how do you get a 3+ ward save at all times?

Demoulius
13-07-2011, 17:40
Sadly, a tooled up Empire General is one of the most mediocre fighting lords in the game... at best. The griffon helps, but even a modest amount of low strength missile fire or close combat attacks will knock wounds off pretty quickly.

It's not the worst choice in the game: the 18" range for Inspiring Presence is a nice bonus, and a well timed flank charge against infantry would be good as you will get Thunderstomp while eliminating supporting attacks against the griffon.

By all means give him a go. It makes a great centrepiece mode, and I do have to say that having to think about any kind of flying monster is a pain as an opponent. Just don't expect a stellar performance :).

p.s. I'm not 100% familiar with the Empire Magic items, but how do you get a 3+ ward save at all times?

Im not expecting him to win me the game on his own :p just a centre piece for the army mostly :) il use him to flank support other units....possibly to hunt warmachines, not sure.

the icon of magnus gives a 5+ ward save and has magic resistance(2). so if im not mistaken that becomes a 3+ ward save? :confused:

Deathbysoup
13-07-2011, 17:46
I say give him a go, he would work in Storm of Magic as a mage killer but in standard games an Arch Lector(while not as effective) is my choice. I cant say no to that lovely extra 2 dispel dice and the unbreakable prayer.

Okuto
13-07-2011, 17:49
damn right!

Dark Aly
13-07-2011, 18:17
Im not expecting him to win me the game on his own :p just a centre piece for the army mostly :) il use him to flank support other units....possibly to hunt warmachines, not sure.

the icon of magnus gives a 5+ ward save and has magic resistance(2). so if im not mistaken that becomes a 3+ ward save? :confused:

Only 3+ against wounds caused by magic (not magic weapons mind) and 5+ the rest of the time. Try the charmed shield.

Algovil
13-07-2011, 18:27
Mace of Helsturm and Helm of Discord is a nice combo btw =D

Not sure if it is effective with ld-rerolls etc, but it sounds great fun.

enyoss
13-07-2011, 19:23
Im not expecting him to win me the game on his own :p just a centre piece for the army mostly :) il use him to flank support other units....possibly to hunt warmachines, not sure.

the icon of magnus gives a 5+ ward save and has magic resistance(2). so if im not mistaken that becomes a 3+ ward save? :confused:

Somebody beat me to it, but the Magic Resistance bonus to your ward save only kicks in if affected by a magic spell (so not even magic weapons or attacks). So, it will increase survivability against magic missiles, but leaves your griffon with no save whatsoever against other attacks.

As I say, he can be reasonably fun to play with, and definitely makes for a nice centrepiece (not to mention a nice break from the Arch Lector), but if you are looking for a competitive combat orientated Lord choice he's not the best options. Then again, I don't think any of the Empire combat orientated characters are fearsome... but that's the point of Empire, right? :)

theshoveller
13-07-2011, 19:54
I run a Templar Grand Master in a Knight bus (Sword of Justice, Crown of Command and Talisman of Endurance). He's fairly fighty and mobile (the regiment usually have the Banner of Swiftness) and they're good for leaping into a flank, chopping down a small elite regiment that thought it was out of charge range, or using as a roadblock (Ld 9 Stubborn, remember?) to tie something up until I can throw another unit in to finish it off. The Grand Master provides most of the reliable killing power.

Demoulius
13-07-2011, 20:05
Ugh i thought the magic resistance just flat out improved ward saves, but it only works against magic? :confused:

How about sword of power, holy relic enchanted shield then? 4+ ward save and the 1+ armour save is the best armour i can give him as far as I can tell :confused: griffon will endure every attack directed at it though :mad:

Freman Bloodglaive
13-07-2011, 20:07
Karl Franz is the closest thing Empire have to a fighty General, and even he is somewhat mediocre compared to fighters like Archeon.

Kurt Helborg is reasonably good too, with the potential to rack up +8 to combat resolution on one set of dice rolls.

Karl is roughly worth his points on a horse, Kurt... probably a few points overcosted.

The optimum Empire General is an Arch Lector on the War Alter with Van Horstmann's Speculum, armour of meteoric iron, and either the ogre blade or the sword of fate.

Yrrdead
13-07-2011, 20:10
To answer bluntly along with everyone else.....No tooled up Empire lords aren't good. But that doesn't mean they aren't useful.

General of the empire is the cheapest lord choice in the game???? I think so. Allows a core unit to take up to 50pt magic banner. Mainly useful for their ability to tote magic items and or get an AP banner on a horde of halberds. Or Banner of Discipline on a large unit of steadfast swordsmen with said general with some defense.

enyoss
13-07-2011, 20:24
How about sword of power, holy relic enchanted shield then? 4+ ward save and the 1+ armour save is the best armour i can give him as far as I can tell :confused: griffon will endure every attack directed at it though :mad:

You hit the nail on the head at the end there.

If faced with an well defended T4/3A/3W Empire General, or a no save whatsoever T5/4A+thunderstomp/4W griffon, most people in their right mind will ignore the General and try to take down the griffon. It's easier to wound (after saves), and is by far the bigger threat. With this in mind, you might be want to scale back on your defensive items and take something else, as even without the ward I think I would prefer to attack the griffon with rank and file (my Killing Blow prince, however, is going for your General's head :D). Is there an item somewhere which gives rider and mount an enhanced save against missile fire (Shield of Ptolos?)... if so, I'd look into that.

I had actually forgotten about the magic standard bonus. To be honest, I quite like the humble Empire General, as he epitomizes everything that is Empire... mediocre to the core, but cheap and characterful.

muse1c
13-07-2011, 20:36
I went for a Lord with Full Plate, Enchanted Shield, Sword of ASF, Strength Potion, and then the Talisman of 4+ ward. I took it as a fluffy character in my Marienburg list, but he has done suprisingly well in the games I've played. He even took down Queek Headtaker in one round of a challenge in my last game- not bad eh! :D

Thanks

wingate32
13-07-2011, 21:49
I usually field a Grand Templar Master with the dawnstone, laurels of victory and sword of justice. He is by far the most skilled warrior in the entire Empire roster.

The Arch lector with VHS, heavy armour, Shield of Gorgon, Sword of sigismund and War altar is also good.

ihavetoomuchminis
13-07-2011, 23:11
Look at it in another way. For the price of a full tooled up empire general, you can have 2 plate armoured 2 handed weaponed Empire generals. Much better IMO.

The griffon general is funny, but too expensive, and not that killy. But i think it fits so well in an 2500+ points empire army that i use it EVERY SINGLE GAME. Griffon, plate armour, enchanted shield and 2 handed weapon or lance, and go.

samw
14-07-2011, 04:32
I aslo think the Crimson Amulet is rather nifty, given the preponderance of spells like Dwellers and Purple Sun, as well as a slew of other test nasties.

Your problem is with true line of sight you can't hide behind trees so well anymore.

Kudos for the Empire General though. It seems every army in the Empire is being led by one of the two Arch-Lectors at the moment.

Demoulius
14-07-2011, 05:28
Some very nice combos :)

How does this one sound?

General on pegasus, dragon bow, dawnstone, dragonhelm, fencer's blades, full plate.

2+ rerollable save (no ward sadly) can fire at range with S6 (and BS so a good chance he will hit :)) its a bow so he can fire on the move and at combos he has 4 WS10 attacks. while 4 S4 attacks isent much the WS 10 would mean that fightier characters like chaos lords would hit him on a 4+ instead of a 3 :evilgrin: while they themselves are hit on 3's.

see it more as a warmachine harasser/wizard sniper then anything else though :D

hmm generally empire cant really make lords that masacre entire regiments it seems :confused: can other lords on monstrous mounts still do that or is that something from last edition?

Lord Dan
14-07-2011, 06:09
General, Full Plate, Shield, Runefang

If only for those fleeting moments where your opponent stares at you quizzically after you inform him of the equipment you took.

Maskedman5oh4
14-07-2011, 07:10
He wont be used in tourneys or such, just competetive play :)


I thought tourneys were somewhat competetive... :confused:

Scythe
14-07-2011, 07:51
In my opinion, there are three mayor plus points to the Empire general:

- Cost. It is a very cheap way of getting a Ld9 character / general in your army list.
- Magic banner for state troops. Very useful; banner of eternal flame on infantry or ranged units to deal with regenerate, banner of discipline on greatswords to use them independently, or together with your general to reach Ld10, armour piercing banner on halberdier horde, etc.
- Cheap protection he can get through full plate armour combined with something else.

To remain cheap, you don't want to spend a lot of points on magic items for your general though. Plate armour, shield, dragonhelm and some other defensive option, maybe combined with a cheap magical sword like +1S is enough imho.

Demoulius
14-07-2011, 11:39
General, Full Plate, Shield, Runefang

If only for those fleeting moments where your opponent stares at you quizzically after you inform him of the equipment you took.

Hmmm is the rune fang worth the price? Dont get me wrong, its a very nice item but you cant give the general any protection other then his AS...


I thought tourneys were somewhat competetive... :confused:

OH! Sorry my mistake, that should have read "he will only be used in friendly play"

Does that make more sense? :rolleyes:

vinush
14-07-2011, 11:52
TBH, whenever I use the Empire General I usually give him full plate, enchanted shield, 4+ ward item and the hammer of judgement. This gives him some survivability, a pretty decent punch (you only need to hit for the hammer to kick in it's effect of forcing T checks, and you might get lucky in a challenge situation and kill his general outright due to him failing it). The FPA and enchanted shield gives him 2+ save, and then he has a 4+ ward just in case. He's not too expensive either.

yabbadabba
14-07-2011, 12:06
Empire Generals are great for two things really. The first is that Ld bubble, especially when combined with the BSB in a nearby unit. The second is the are unit boosters. Those extra attacks can really help.

I go for FP, Shield, Sword of Sigismund, Holy Relic and put him in a unit. While the Arch Lector gives you a spread of extras, he doesn't excell at anything so is even more of an army synergy approach.

Any Empire character running around these days is asking for a kicking. You really can't afford having them running on their own outside of units in any kind of hardcore competitive game.

Demoulius
14-07-2011, 12:11
Cant you hide flying monsters behind other units or behind trees? :confused:

ihavetoomuchminis
14-07-2011, 12:21
Do you people spend 100 hundred points in magic items for a character worth 80? I only spend points in a ward save for the general. Other than that, i think it's better to simply deploy 2 generals with 2 handed weapon instead 1 general fully tooled.

Demoulius
14-07-2011, 12:25
Well im pretty new and kinda attracted by the big shiney magic items :angel:

Besides even if the general has a pretty mediocre statline compared to other lord choices doesent mean hes bad in my eyes...

Keeping him cheap might be wiser gamewise though but I tend to get attached to my characters and to want to avoid seeing them get slaughtered :(

yabbadabba
14-07-2011, 13:17
Cant you hide flying monsters behind other units or behind trees? :confused: People get over excited about this to be honest. If you want your forest to block line of site you just say so. Its not a hassle.

RichBlake
14-07-2011, 14:34
I don't think as previously mentioned the Arch Lector on the War Altar is the "optimum" general. I think there's a lot of problems with takig the Waltar these days. It's still good, far from "optimum" though.

My fave toolout for a General is an Arch Lector with Armour of Metoric Iron, a Great Weapon and Van Horstmasn's speculum. He can smack down quite a few things in a challenge.

I have before reccommended the loadout of:

Empire General + Armour of Metoric Iron + Trickster's Shard + Holy Relic + Great Weapon

I believe that is roughly 170 points for a wound character with WS5, S6, T4, 3 attacks, a 1+ save, 4+ ward and your opponent has to re-roll their ward saves. Albeit striking last (but with I4 you probably would anyway).

If you want survivability you can switch the shard for the dawn stone and have a a T4 3 wound character with a 1+ re-rollable save and a 4+ ward.

It'll catch a lot of people off guard but that trick only really works once.

Demoulius
18-07-2011, 12:17
To post a question in here again. At what point cost would it be a good idea to include a lord? (not just specificly for empire)

Some armies have characters that have a basecost over 200 points (VC for example) and so I doubt that anything other then 2000 points would be a good idea (if you want to kit them out that is :confused: )

Sure you can keep the without upgrades (just a lvl 3 or lvl 4 wizard lord for example) but im not sure if they would add all that much...

Thoughts?

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-07-2011, 12:28
There are no generic catch all answer to that. It will depend entirely on the army, list, your plan, opponent, etc.

If you think you can afford it and get everything else you want go for it. If you think you would be better off without or with a hero instead and spending the extra points on other things do that.

DivineVisitor
19-07-2011, 01:30
The characters i frequently use are as follows:

Generals:
Karl Franz!
Hammer time!

Grand Master:
None
Never bothered

Arch Lectors:
War Altar/Barded Warhorse, Shield, Dawn Armour, Van Horstmann's Speculum
Great Weapon, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Van Horstmann's Speculum
Mostly defensive items. When on the Altar the longer he's stuck in a challenge the better!

Warrior Priests:
None
See as too fragile after i've bought the defensive items for my main guys. Might try on a barded steed in a Halberdier Horde sometime.

Battle Standards:
Barded Warhorse, Full Plate, Shield, Lance, Holy Relic
Great Weapon, AOMI, Dawnstone
Whatever keeps him hard to kill while still being able to contribute.

Captains:
Pegasus, Full Plate, Shield, Lance, Dragonhelm, Crown of Command
Pegasus, Full Plate, Lance, Enchanted Shield, Aldred's Casket of Sorcery
Pegasus, Full Plate, Shield, Sword of Fate
You shall not pass! Spell ninja and Beast slayer!

Wizard Lord:
Rod of Power, Shroud of Magnus/Holy Relic
Im frequently subjected to Death Magic so the Shroud has saved me its fair share of times.

Battle Wizard:
Rod of Power/Seal of Destruction
Mega Death Spell? Poof!

Never really bothered with the Mace of Helstrum, thats what cannons are for lads ;)

My first Lord buy is always the Arch Lector, with the War Altar depending on the point values. My Wizard Lord comes next in 3kish games and a General of the Empire always comes last for me which means only in 4k+ point games and if im playing that many points i may aswell whip out the Franz and go splitting skulls with Ghal Maraz.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-07-2011, 06:31
The Waltar is without a doubt the best Lord choice by far, which is sad. You hardly see any Empire army around without it. They've become a bunch of religious nutters.



I believe that is roughly 170 points for a wound character with WS5, S6, T4, 3 attacks, a 1+ save, 4+ ward and your opponent has to re-roll their ward saves. Albeit striking last (but with I4 you probably would anyway).


Perhaps, but he's I5. ;)


To post a question in here again. At what point cost would it be a good idea to include a lord? (not just specificly for empire)

Some armies need one at 500 points. I didn't take a Lord in 1k games recently, and of 7 armies, only a Dwarf player did.



Never really bothered with the Mace of Helstrum, thats what cannons are for lads ;)


You don't get a Lo,S! roll against the Mace though.

Scythe
19-07-2011, 06:50
The Waltar is without a doubt the best Lord choice by far, which is sad. You hardly see any Empire army around without it. They've become a bunch of religious nutters.


Yeah, I never really liked the idea of the altar. The presence of the Lectors themselves is equally puzzling, as the 2 actual Arch Lectors of the are described as obese, lazy men who wouldn't know how to hold a hammer.

A push for the standard empire general would be nice. Give him something you cannot do with the other lord choices (the magic banner is nice, but not enough reason for people).

Oh well, my army will be lead by a general regardless. No Lector will creep in my army. ;)

ihavetoomuchminis
19-07-2011, 09:50
I'm going to fit 2 Griffon generals in my next 2999 points army. Full plate, shield, lance or 2 Handed weapon, and one of them with a 4+ ward. :P

Far2Casual
19-07-2011, 09:51
Completely agree. The Archlector thing on the War Altar is stupid. Archlectors should be fat and useless on the battlefield, and the War Altar belongs to Volkmar only. And it is sooo underpriced. I hate it.

An Empire General can be good. Give him a Barded Warhorse, Shield, Dawn Armour and Holy Relic, and this guy has a 1+ rerollable / 4+ ward save. Pretty hard to kill, so he can take challenges and hold down the opponent for some time. And he still is pretty cheap.

yabbadabba
19-07-2011, 10:34
Sounds like a little Arch-Lector envy going on here. With their stat lines and damage output they are fat and lazy on the battlefield; they are a defensive and negative playing choice like the Warrior Priest. That people take the war altar as well is an indication of people's approach to playing. I have 2 war altars, one scratch built, and I haven't find a background reason to use either of them yet.

DivineVisitor
19-07-2011, 10:41
Yeah, I never really liked the idea of the altar. The presence of the Lectors themselves is equally puzzling, as the 2 actual Arch Lectors of the are described as obese, lazy men who wouldn't know how to hold a hammer.

A push for the standard empire general would be nice. Give him something you cannot do with the other lord choices (the magic banner is nice, but not enough reason for people).

Oh well, my army will be lead by a general regardless. No Lector will creep in my army. ;)

Not every Arch Lector needs to represent the 2 fluff ones and not every War Altar needs to represnt the Golden Griffon one.
E.g. My War Altar is represented by the last surviving Priest of a Sigmarite temple. He rides upon the remains of his temple's main tower pulled by two sturdy warhorses in battle.

Scythe
19-07-2011, 10:52
Not every Arch Lector needs to represent the 2 fluff ones and not every War Altar needs to represnt the Golden Griffon one.


There are only 2 (living) Arch Lectors in the Empire, so I figure the two described cover about 100% of those. ;)

But then, that's all stuff from Storm of Chaos if I recall correctly, before the Lector made his appearance in the army list.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-07-2011, 10:54
Sounds like a little Arch-Lector envy going on here. With their stat lines and damage output they are fat and lazy on the battlefield; they are a defensive and negative playing choice like the Warrior Priest. That people take the war altar as well is an indication of people's approach to playing.


Nah, that's nonsense. That people refuse to take something is just as much an indication of one's approach, and so what? That's a far cry from being bad or good.

The stat line and damage output of the AL is amazing and often the best in the game - if you give him the Speculum, which many do, plus impact hits. DD can easily be converted into offensive action by the Rod, which is just as much a staple. The large Ld bubble is a tad defensive but Ld boosts are a must-have for Empire.

And then there's the access to all Light spells, a very very good Lore, freeing up your wizards to take something else.

I just wish that the TGM or GotE brought anything like this punch and protection and overall flexibility to the field. Neither ItP nor the Heirloom rule nor slightly better stats do that. And a GotE on foot with the Crown and Relic is at least as defensive.

yabbadabba
19-07-2011, 11:23
Nah, that's nonsense. That people refuse to take something is just as much an indication of one's approach, and so what? That's a far cry from being bad or good. Thankyou for that...balanced assessment. I didn't say that was good or bad. It was an comment towards to commonality of the war altar.

The stat line and damage output of the AL is amazing and often the best in the game - if you give him the Speculum, which many do, plus impact hits. DD can easily be converted into offensive action by the Rod, which is just as much a staple. The large Ld bubble is a tad defensive but Ld boosts are a must-have for Empire. If you give him the speculum it is reliant on him facing something better than himself. So it is a dependent item to be effective. If you are playing in a tournament style of game with a tournament style of opponent, this will not be difficult, but its not guaranteed. The leadership bubble is the same for all The Rod is good, but is an Arcane Item and I don't believe Warrior Priests can use them as they do not have magic levels and are not wizards. The defensive part of the WP and AL is not the Ld bubble, but the ability to become unbreakable. Offensively, there is no need to be unbreakable.

And then there's the access to all Light spells, a very very good Lore, freeing up your wizards to take something else. True, but its one per turn at lvl 5. In addition should you IF the spell the Golden Griffon is destroyed. Plus of course you don't get the level bonus.

I just wish that the TGM or GotE brought anything like this punch and protection and overall flexibility to the field. Neither ItP nor the Heirloom rule nor slightly better stats do that. And a GotE on foot with the Crown and Relic is at least as defensive. A naked GotE or TGM has more punch than an AL or a WP. Once you start adding boosters like magic items then of course it all changes. By their nature GotE and TGM are more offensive and more survivable. But yes, as I am sick to death with the cookie cutter approach to Empire armies I would be overjoyed to see a boost for Gnerals and Grandmasters.

Harvey
19-07-2011, 11:41
In addition should you IF the spell the Golden Griffon is destroyed.

In the latest errata for The Empire, the spells cast by the Golden Griffon are classed as an innate ability, and so the spell simply fails if miscast.

It's also worth remembering that the speculum can only be used in challenges.

Demoulius
19-07-2011, 12:02
Arch lectors seem nice :) bring extra magical defence, their own magic (sort of) and can make the unit they are in better in combat.

Captain and general only bring their own prowess (general also has the heirloom) but do have better stats :D

I havent considered the grand masters yet... Might be nice if you bring a big unit of knights i guess? No clue when else they would be usefull :confused:

yabbadabba
19-07-2011, 12:04
In the latest errata for The Empire, the spells cast by the Golden Griffon are classed as an innate ability, and so the spell simply fails if miscast. Shows you how often I use it :D Cheers mate.

Freman Bloodglaive
19-07-2011, 12:21
My Arch Lector is the Ar Ulric, and I have two Priests of Ulric in my army.

theshoveller
19-07-2011, 12:25
I havent considered the grand masters yet... Might be nice if you bring a big unit of knights i guess? No clue when else they would be usefull :confused:
Doeesn't need to be big, just killy. A high mobility, immune to psychology unit is a great way of adding serious punch to a stalemate combat. I built them to act as a mobile reserve to break things that my Greatswords or Swordsmen had tarpitted... in practice they often break stuff themselves.

Wesser
19-07-2011, 13:09
Empire lords can't usualy scrath anything

Laurels of Victory on a Templar Lord can someone deliver a surprise, but else I can recommend the Sword of Anti-Heroes. There always seems to be at least one unit with 2 characters in it, so even a captain counts 5 Str 6 attacks here.

I once faced a wolfrider army where a unit had 5 goblin heroes in front rank.... 8 Str 9 attacks? Auch.

But dont think of Empire chars as fighty lord. Keep em cheap and let them lead

DivineVisitor
19-07-2011, 19:35
There are only 2 (living) Arch Lectors in the Empire, so I figure the two described cover about 100% of those. ;)

But then, that's all stuff from Storm of Chaos if I recall correctly, before the Lector made his appearance in the army list.

Because nobody could ever create their own high priest that rides there own holy relic and use the Arch Lector/War Altar rules to represent it :rolleyes:


In the latest errata for The Empire, the spells cast by the Golden Griffon are classed as an innate ability, and so the spell simply fails if miscast.

It's also worth remembering that the speculum can only be used in challenges.

Innate bound spells don't fail if miscast, it is cast with irresistible force as normal however you don't need to roll on the miscast table as far as i read it on p37.

yabbadabba
19-07-2011, 19:52
But then, that's all stuff from Storm of Chaos if I recall correctly, before the Lector made his appearance in the army list. The Grand Theogonist has always been a part of the army book Empire Army lists. The reason they made a non-SC character is more to do with sales, creativity and the anti-SC attitude among some types of gamers.

This is the 1992 Catalogue (http://www.solegends.com/citcat9x3/c92350empwaraltar-03.htm), one of the first with the War Altar in if I remember right. But I might be misunderstanding you.

thesheriff
19-07-2011, 23:03
Mace of helstrum, other tricksters shard is good for a mounted lord. Unless you miss. Which is why its better on an archlector with hatred :evilgrin:

The issue with them is that he only has 3 attacks. Same as a captain.

Also, if your putting nearly 400pts into a 2k lord, you miss out on lv.4's, arch lectors, templar grand masters and special charecters.

Obviously the standard competative lords are wizard lord, archlector. And if your dead set on a combat charecter, an Grand master (although on horse) is very killy. And cheap.

And, Kurt hellborg is a good shout. WS7 with 4 attacks, runefang and laurels. For 355pts. And, hes got a 1+ sv. to boot, and can sit in a unit of knights and churn up stuff.

thesheriff

ihavetoomuchminis
19-07-2011, 23:17
Are wizards really that necessary? In my empire games, they've done close to nothing, being such a waste of points i could have invested in units, or more reliable characters. Now i only use 2 lvl 1 wizards with Wyssan's spell, to buff some units when it's needed. The rest of pool dices are used casting warrior priest "spells" (the repeat to hit and wound and the restore wounds are huge)

Lord Solar Plexus
20-07-2011, 06:21
Thankyou for that...balanced assessment.


You are most welcome. This holds especially true in the light of your thoughtful and most flattering analysis ("Lazy", "fat", "negative"...). :)

It's cool, man. I wasn't trying to attack you, I simply disagree.



If you give him the speculum it is reliant on him facing something better than himself. So it is a dependent item to be effective.


You said it yourself: His statline and damage output are unimpressive. It's a given that there will be someone better, and more than one in most circumstances. If not, don't challenge.



The leadership bubble is the same for all The Rod is good, but is an Arcane Item and I don't believe Warrior Priests can use them as they do not have magic levels and are not wizards.


The leadership bubble is 18" for a Waltar and 12" for the others unless you're fielding a Griffon. It's just one more plus for the former.

The Rod will of course be on a mage, that pretty much goes without saying. The combination however allows you great flexibility in the use of the additional DD, something the other choices again cannot do. It's just one more plus.



The defensive part of the WP and AL is not the Ld bubble, but the ability to become unbreakable. Offensively, there is no need to be unbreakable.

[Lore of Light]
True, but its one per turn at lvl 5.


Even if that was a defensive ability, I don't see any reason to criticize that (perhaps I misunderstood you here). Aren't you going to take Flagellants? What about Undead? What about stubborn or steadfast or high Ld? It is something that makes your units better. Again the Waltar does this much better than the other choices, even though I like the TGM's ItP.

Secondly, the Unbreakable prayer is one per turn at complexity 5. If you do not rate the knowledge of Lore of Light highly, then surely the prayer doesn't matter much.

As has been pointed out, you can cast on 6 dice without any risk whatsoever. He cannot destroy him or cause blue-on-blue action, he cannot be turned into a frog...and since now you have the basics covered (magic missiles, Ini boosts, flaming attacks) you can happily invest in another lore. Again, the other choices do not offer this kind of flexibility, not by a long shot.



A naked GotE or TGM has more punch than an AL or a WP. Once you start adding boosters like magic items then of course it all changes. By their nature GotE and TGM are more offensive and more survivable.


No, they do not have more punch. That's part of the problem! Three or even four attacks vs two with hatred is pretty much a wash. The TGM's additional hit over several turns is I'm truly sorry to say laughable compared to the advantages of a Waltar. Okay, the TGM comes with a lance but hey, it isn't a stretch to assume they'd all carry some additional kit.



Also, if your putting nearly 400pts into a 2k lord, you miss out on lv.4's, arch lectors, templar grand masters and special charecters.


400 points? Are you talking about Karl Franz? :confused:



And, Kurt hellborg is a good shout. WS7 with 4 attacks, runefang and laurels. For 355pts. And, hes got a 1+ sv. to boot, and can sit in a unit of knights and churn up stuff.


The only advantage is that he has the Runefang + Laurels, a combination that cannot be replicated elsewhere. He does however "only" enjoy a 2+ save - Imperial SC's are all untrained in the art of using a simple shield - and no ward.

RanaldLoec
20-07-2011, 22:17
Look at it in another way. For the price of a full tooled up empire general, you can have 2 plate armoured 2 handed weaponed Empire generals. Much better IMO.

The griffon general is funny, but too expensive, and not that killy. But i think it fits so well in an 2500+ points empire army that i use it EVERY SINGLE GAME. Griffon, plate armour, enchanted shield and 2 handed weapon or lance, and go.

Sorry you can't use two hand weapons if your mounted.

I do love an empire general on foot to hold a unit in place.

Armour of meteioric iron, crown of command, talisman of endurance, great weapon.

Any wounds he causes are a bonus, its the ability to shrug off damage and stubborn ld9 you bring him for.

Sorry Lord Plexus but a TGM with the sword of sigismund can hit harder than an arch lector st5 with Rerolls to hit not great but still respectable for empire.

VHS works best on wizards I stopped using it on warrior priests and lectors a while ago. I find the war alter a little squishy it tends to get targeted more than the lector on top.

For the record though Arch Lectors are the best choice for a general overall as they like the empire army it self they adept to all situations. Be it magic, combat or buffing the troops AL's do it all.

Although in big games I always turn to the K man on horse.

yabbadabba
20-07-2011, 22:22
I just don't agree with your analysis Lord Solar Plexus.

ihavetoomuchminis
20-07-2011, 22:28
Sorry you can't use two hand weapons if your mounted.

I do love an empire general on foot to hold a unit in place.

Armour of meteioric iron, crown of command, talisman of endurance, great weapon.

Any wounds he causes are a bonus, its the ability to shrug off damage and stubborn ld9 you bring him for.

Sorry Lord Plexus but a TGM with the sword of sigismund can hit harder than an arch lector st5 with Rerolls to hit not great but still respectable for empire.

VHS works best on wizards I stopped using it on warrior priests and lectors a while ago. I find the war alter a little squishy it tends to get targeted more than the lector on top.

For the record though Arch Lectors are the best choice for a general overall as they like the empire army it self they adept to all situations. Be it magic, combat or buffing the troops AL's do it all.

Although in big games I always turn to the K man on horse.

Sorry, i was trying to say great weapon. :p

RanaldLoec
20-07-2011, 22:32
Are wizards really that necessary? In my empire games, they've done close to nothing, being such a waste of points i could have invested in units, or more reliable characters. Now i only use 2 lvl 1 wizards with Wyssan's spell, to buff some units when it's needed. The rest of pool dices are used casting warrior priest "spells" (the repeat to hit and wound and the restore wounds are huge)

Ok I'm the same I really only run a lvl4 for the dispel bonus any spells he casts are a bonus.

Extra dispel dice are great but if you going against lvl4 or 5s with lvl1 and twos your nearly a whole d6 down before you roll to dispel.

I like the staff of sorcerey for the +1 to dispel.

You can't ignore magic entirely if you come up against a vampire master of the black arts spam army or a tzeentch demon lore master army you will regret it.

Don't rely on magic but plan for it in your lists.

RanaldLoec
20-07-2011, 22:36
Sorry, i was trying to say great weapon. :p

Easy mistake to make my 30 odd year old opponent who's being playing since 2nd addition made the same mistake today we all get stuff wrong every now and again.

Although my wife tells me I'm just plain wrong all the time.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-07-2011, 08:05
Sorry Lord Plexus but a TGM with the sword of sigismund can hit harder than an arch lector


...without any kit, quite so. An AL with the Mace however can be just as good. Not against infantry but that is my point: A few extra kills against infantry, while always welcome in isolation, are not going to matter much when we look at the big picture.



I just don't agree with your analysis Lord Solar Plexus.

That's your prerogative, yabbadabba.

Scythe
21-07-2011, 08:28
The Grand Theogonist has always been a part of the army book Empire Army lists. The reason they made a non-SC character is more to do with sales, creativity and the anti-SC attitude among some types of gamers.

This is the 1992 Catalogue (http://www.solegends.com/citcat9x3/c92350empwaraltar-03.htm), one of the first with the War Altar in if I remember right. But I might be misunderstanding you.

The Theogonist and the Lectors are different things, though. As I understand Empire lore, the church of Sigmar is lead by the Theogonist, and 2 Arch Lectors. The Theogonist has indeed been available in the army list for a long time. The Arch Lectors didn't appear in the army list until 7th edition, if I recall correctly. They have been described in lore before that though. I can recall some fluff around Storm of Chaos that the two lectors round that time thought Volkmar was a senile old fool and were all too happy he went to the North challenging Chaos on his own and dying (well, before he got resurrected by Belakor and escaped). The lectors were described as lazy political schemers back then, one of the reasons Luthor Huss set out on his own to search for Valten.


Because nobody could ever create their own high priest that rides there own holy relic and use the Arch Lector/War Altar rules to represent it :rolleyes:


That wasn't really my point, was it? The ideas on which the Arch Lectors rules in the current book are based differ widely from what was described before. Not a problem, as retcons are pretty common as it is, but still a noticeable change.

Counts as has nothing to do with that at all. :eyebrows:

Sorry for drifting a bit off topic...

RanaldLoec
21-07-2011, 13:33
In the latest errata for The Empire, the spells cast by the Golden Griffon are classed as an innate ability, and so the spell simply fails if miscast.

It's also worth remembering that the speculum can only be used in challenges.

Nope read innate abilities and irresistible force on pg 37 the war alter casts the spell using IF then can't cast for the rest of the turn but can continue to cast as a warrior private can in the next turn.

RanaldLoec
21-07-2011, 14:28
Some very nice combos :)

How does this one sound?

General on pegasus, dragon bow, dawnstone, dragonhelm, fencer's blades, full plate.

2+ rerollable save (no ward sadly) can fire at range with S6 (and BS so a good chance he will hit :)) its a bow so he can fire on the move and at combos he has 4 WS10 attacks. while 4 S4 attacks isent much the WS 10 would mean that fightier characters like chaos lords would hit him on a 4+ instead of a 3 :evilgrin: while they themselves are hit on 3's.

see it more as a warmachine harasser/wizard sniper then anything else though :D

hmm generally empire cant really make lords that masacre entire regiments it seems :confused: can other lords on monstrous mounts still do that or is that something from last edition?

Two magic weapons in that combo in the dragon bow and fencers blades its one or the other I'm afraid.

A pistol is a nice compromise.

Still at lower points levels you want your lord tucked away in a regiment, or on the war alter if you must:shifty:

Once you start hitting 5k you can tool a secondary lord up on a griffon with a runefang just for the fun factor as the lord allowance at that level leaves room for those builds deemed un-competitive.

Harvey
21-07-2011, 15:33
Nope read innate abilities and irresistible force on pg 37 the war alter casts the spell using IF then can't cast for the rest of the turn but can continue to cast as a warrior private can in the next turn.


Innate bound spells don't fail if miscast, it is cast with irresistible force as normal however you don't need to roll on the miscast table as far as i read it on p37.

Wow, yes, I was reading it wrong, assuming that a miscast meant the spell failed. Apologies for that.

So you can pick any spell from the Lore of Light, throw as many dice at it as you like, cast on a 5+ and ignore any miscasts, with the only downside of IF being that it ends the character's casting phase? That's quite a lot more powerful than I understood it to be.

Scythe
22-07-2011, 06:41
Wow, yes, I was reading it wrong, assuming that a miscast meant the spell failed. Apologies for that.

So you can pick any spell from the Lore of Light, throw as many dice at it as you like, cast on a 5+ and ignore any miscasts, with the only downside of IF being that it ends the character's casting phase? That's quite a lot more powerful than I understood it to be.

One mayor downside is the dispeller usually gets +4 to dispel if he has a level 4 mage, while you get nothing as bonus to cast. It is quite a huge disadvantage, and makes bound spells quite dice inefficient, as a defending player can throw one less dice as you've rolled to cast and still have a good chance of a dispel. Also keep in mind that you can only cast the spells at basic casting level, never at the higher one (which is usually one of the nicest things about a lot of lore of light spells).

Bound spells got a mayor hit with the switch to 8th edition, and I think they are currently not really at the level they should be. It is a nice bonus if you get the ability to bound cast for free (well, included in the cost), but I have yet to find a bound magic item which is really worth it in 8th edition.

Demoulius
22-07-2011, 12:02
Two magic weapons in that combo in the dragon bow and fencers blades its one or the other I'm afraid.

A pistol is a nice compromise.

Still at lower points levels you want your lord tucked away in a regiment, or on the war alter if you must:shifty:

Once you start hitting 5k you can tool a secondary lord up on a griffon with a runefang just for the fun factor as the lord allowance at that level leaves room for those builds deemed un-competitive.

actually after posting it i found out you dont get extra attacks from additional hand weapons when mounted... So needless to say the combo itself wouldnt have worked if I could have had 2 magic weapon choices...

I think the fencers blade will be a nice addition to a WP/archlector though :) normal WS of 4 leaves them easy targets against other tooled up lords. this way they are hit on 5's by generic troops and on a 4+ at best by other lords :cool: wont dish out that much damage but will also receive less which in itself is a form of protection ;)

Demoulius
23-07-2011, 21:48
Cooked up a wizard lord (havent though about his school yet) can you guys tell me what you think?

Wizard lord, lvl 4, pegasus, grey wand, armour of Tarnus, the terrifying mask of eee! 360 points

I gave him the armour since he will be riding around on the pegasus (for mobility so im sure he can cast his spells at what target i want :cool: )

He will have a 5+ to cast thanks to the grey wand. If he gets charged (or if im in a really horrible situation and have to charge myself) he causes terror.

Fawful
25-07-2011, 12:12
Mask of eee! wouldn't do much since you only cause terror when charging, the only thing it does when getting charged is causing fear. And that is ignored by quite a few units to.

Sicarius the 2nd
25-07-2011, 12:29
I personally like to stick my General of the Empire on a barded warhorse, with full plate and shield with a holy relic. He then trots along in my unit of 50 Halberdiers, Just chilling and giving away his ld!
Andy

Morax
25-07-2011, 13:36
General with full plate, enchanted shield, sword of strife, potion of strength. Clocks in at under 170, gets 5 str 4 attacks and when you need it boosts to str 7 for killing high toughness/high armor save targets. He also gets a 2+ armor save without stealing the armor of meteoric iron from people that are more integral to the army (bsb or arch lector). Use the hierloom to get the armor pen banner and put it on the halberdiers and have this guy lead them and its a solid block of guys that can stand alone. About as cheap and killy as you can get for an empire general while still keeping it cheap enough to include a wizard lord and arch lector at 3k.

I look at the general as a captain with an extra wound and a higher leadership. Look at him that way and you won't go far gone. As per the "At what point should I include a lord?" question I use a general at 1500. He's cheap enough to swing as a leader and gives you the much needed boost to army leadership.

Lord Solar Plexus
26-07-2011, 06:31
So how does that answer the OP's question?

Morax
26-07-2011, 15:15
Fair enough. Yes a tooled up empire lord is good if it is an Arch Lector that you are tooling up. War Alter plus van horstmann's and some extra gear thrown in for good measure. Any other empire lord should be moderately tooled up to maintain a high cost/benefit ratio.

A grandmaster with Laurels and a great weapon excells at what he does and is cheap enough to field to be worth it.

My above listed empire general falls into the same catagory.

If you were to go all out with either the general, the grand master or a wizard lord you are wasting points and losing over all effectiveness in the army as a whole.

Grimmeth
26-07-2011, 15:26
There's another potential way to keep the Griffon alive - and that's Target Prioritisation.
It's a little risky, but effectively by taking lots of potential targets for war machines you're forcing your opponent whether to split their fire (thus likely not killing anything) or concentrate on one major threat (leaving the others free to hit the enemy lines unscathed and wreak havoc).
I'm not sure what huge threats Empire armies have that could force the opponent to direct missile fire at it other than the general, except maybe Steam Tanks?

Tigranius
27-07-2011, 11:38
Hi,

I usually run with an Arch Lector on an Alter with: AOMI, Dawnstone, Horstmann specs and Sword of Justice.

Specially being Empire your opponent will probably have units you can not beat in H2H combat. Ram this guy into that unit and keep challanging. It is able to keep big units tied up for a long while.

I am not very impressed with Elector Counts. Maybe in a unit of GreatSwords, but further more either take the AL or a Grandmaster if you bring cavalery to the field.

Tayrod
30-07-2011, 12:02
General of the empire is the cheapest lord choice in the game???? I think so. .

I see your "General of the Empire" and raise you one "Night Goblin Warboss" - he is a full 25 points cheaper then the Emp.Gen. he has +1 attack, and -2 LD.

Algorath
30-07-2011, 18:39
If I ever played Empire, and I won't, I'd be tempted by:

General:
Full Plate, Shield, Runefag on Warhorse w/ Barding.

Knightly Order x9
Full Command, Flame Banner.

Granted, that's roughly 500 points, but I'm fairly confident they're going to stab something in the face. I'd then pack as may Priests as I could; get a flagellant warband, some machines, fill the rest with halberds, and commence 'ta stompin'.


I see your "General of the Empire" and raise you one "Night Goblin Warboss" - he is a full 25 points cheaper then the Emp.Gen. he has +1 attack, and -2 LD.

And who needs LD?

Demoulius
01-08-2011, 12:25
Not exactly a lord but got an idea for a nice captain :)

captain, full plate, halberd, handgun/longbow 72 pts

Granted he isent amazing but for small games a cheap and effective general I think :D