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Grey Seer
14-07-2011, 17:34
Are the following Skaven Champions worth the points? If so, why?

Basic clanrat = 4 pts. The champion is +8 pts, which only has +1 attack (WS3, S3).

Nightrunner = 7 pts. The champion is +8 pts, which gets you +1 BS, and a 6+ ward save. Nightrunners have no armour save.

These last two units are typically small (5-10 models):

Plague Censor Bearers are 16 pts (which have 2 attacks and +1 for frenzy). The champion is +13 pts, which gets you another attack. Am I not better off just buying another PCB?

Jezzails are 20 pts. A champion is +10 pts, which adds +1 BS. Am I not better off just buying another jezzail?

Thank you for any insight.

Von Wibble
14-07-2011, 17:42
Yes for the first 2 units.

Simple reason, they can challenge, ensuring your unit doesn't flee from a bloodthirster or equivalent. Plus command groups look good. And they can accept challenges, allowing your characters a bit more chance to kill enemy units and avoid things that are too nasty.

No for the other 2, for the reasons you have already given.

RTGamer
14-07-2011, 17:43
You pay for the ability to challenge. Saving your BSB or mage from getting mauled by a big bad character.

If the unit is not intended for combat then they are generally (Not always) not worth it.

russellmoo
14-07-2011, 18:29
I always take a fullcommand on my clanrats, and stormvermin- the champion helps them win combat, or helps save any characters- like warlock engineers, etc- that end up in those units-

My nightrunners are used as redirectors, or for warmachine hunting- so they never get a champion-

Wargamejunkie
14-07-2011, 20:43
Must agree with Russellmoo.

I use them to challenge nasty characters to keep my ranks around longer.

Kevlar
16-07-2011, 00:06
I don't know about the jezzail champ. Sure, he costs as much as half another Jezzail, but he also gets +1 to hit. That is pretty big with the effectiveness of the jezzail. I've thought about fielding a bunch of small units of 3 with all of them having a champion with BS4.

Are two shots at BS4 better than 3 shots at BS3?

Jack of Blades
16-07-2011, 00:20
Are two shots at BS4 better than 3 shots at BS3?

Me I'd pick the 3 shots at BS3 because there's a good chance you'll hit with at least 2 and if you don't, you could've rolled a number low enough to miss with BS4 anyway. I was originally going to say that it's about reliability vs risk and reward but saturation has a reliability in of itself, which skews it in favour of 3 BS3 shots. Only if those 10 points are needed more elsewhere (which I doubt - jezzails are effective and specialised, points in them are well spent as long as they do what they're there for) or I don't want a larger unit would I use the champion.

mrtn
16-07-2011, 02:03
Me I'd pick the 3 shots at BS3 because there's a good chance you'll hit with at least 2 and if you don't, you could've rolled a number low enough to miss with BS4 anyway.Uhm, I don't know if I play my jezzails wrong, but I seem to have at least -1 to hit all the time (long range, Miasma, cover or something else), having BS4 means I don't need 6s to hit. But then I'm thinking about ditching my jezzails, thanks to how incredibly ineffective they are, why do I pay more than 100 points to kill one model per turn?

Grey Seer
18-07-2011, 19:50
mrtn,

I would agree with you. I don't usually take Jezzails. But I have the models painted, and sometimes want to try a "fun" shooting list.

What worked out rather well was taking 7 jezzails, no champ, and placing them first, at the front and centre of my deployment line. My opponent placed all of his more elite units off to the sides to avoid the LOS of the jezzails. While the jezzails did not kill much if anything, they did act as a deterent, and gave me effective control of the centre of the board.

lovedinplaster
19-07-2011, 01:15
I also deploy my jezzails dead centre and first.. I run 6 with a champion.. I think the +1 to hit can be valuable.. Because you are throwing 5's.. Possibly 6's to hit most of the time.. And if not.. You are in combat. 10 Pts for a 4+ hit is nice.

I also take a champion on my globadiers for the death globe.

What do skaven players think for the gutter runner champion with weeping blade? -3 asm and a 5+ ward could be handy vs art.. Or heavy infiltry

Jolly Puggles
19-07-2011, 12:30
Clanrat Champions are definitely worth it. They need all the offence they can muster.

I've never used Night Runners myself, so can't judge based on experience, but I probably wouldn't. If I was fielding Night Runners, it would be as missile support at strike team, not melee infantry. A Champion in those circumstances is unneccesary.

Plague Censer Bearers have 2 Attacks profile and Frenzy. 13pts for one extra attack is a complete waste of time. No Champion.

Warplock Jezzail Teams; get as many Sharpshooters as possible. If you have 9 Jezzails on the table, you should have 3 Sharpshooters. The extra point of BS is invaluable. You pay out the nose for the awesome tin-opener Weapon, but are stuck with a terrible stat-line. Two shots at BS:4 will perform better than three at BS:3 (I may or may not have statistical mathmatics on my side, I haven't checked, but I have used Jezzails extrensively on the battlefield and found Sharpshooters to be invaluable).

On Gutter Runner Champions, the Weeping Blade is an expensive "upgrade". Unless you're fielding Runners with Nets instead of Additional Hand Weapons, I wouldn't reccommend it. For the price of 2 extra Gutter Runners (give or take, depending on options taken), you lose one Attack (assuming AHW rather than Nets) and gain Armour Piercing (which only gives -1 ASM, not -3). The D3 Multiple Wounds is not significant most of the time. It's not a trade I'd make. Also, if you're throwing Gutter Runners into melee with Heavy Infantry, you're likely going to come off worse; no armour, T:3 and only a 6++ save means that even if you're attacking their Flank, you'll be losing half your front rank, at least. That's an expensive trade when you consider that you'll struggle against anything with an Armour Save better than 5+.