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buzz0783
16-07-2011, 09:13
Hi

I had a game against Tomb KIngs the other day and my Horror unit with the Changling in charged his Collosus. In the combat phase the Changling "swapped" some of his stats with the Collosus. My opponent said that I will only get 4A as this is what is on the Attacks characteristics and his 5th attack is an extra hand weapon.

Is this right?

In the Daemons of Chaos book it states:

"...an enemy model in base contact and 'swap' any or all of his Weapon Skill, Strength, Toughness, Initiative, and Attacks values with those of the chosen foe..."

Does this mean then I should have had 5 Attacks?

Yrrdead
16-07-2011, 09:29
Initially I was going to say you would only get his base attacks but the more I look at it the more I think you would get whatever their current value is at the start of close combat.

So I would go with 5 attacks.

warplock
16-07-2011, 10:20
Initially I was going to say you would only get his base attacks but the more I look at it the more I think you would get whatever their current value is at the start of close combat.

So I would go with 5 attacks.

Nah, I don't buy that at all. So you're saying if you swap with a high elf prince who has a great weapon, the Changeling gets S6 and the Prince gets S3? You swap the 'value', which is the figure on the model's profile - any bonuses conferred from equipment are separate to this. So I think 4 attacks from the colossus was right.

narrativium
16-07-2011, 10:28
You swap characteristics, not weapons. Weapons only benefit the bearer.

buzz0783
16-07-2011, 11:07
ok

How does that work against a Dark Elf Lord with the Fencer Blades? The magic item give the bearer WS10. Does this mean that the Dark Elf Lord will keep his WS10?

Deathbysoup
16-07-2011, 11:31
You would get whatever the base weapon skill of the lord is. As the above examples explain, the weapon only affects the bearer and any stats gained from the weapons isnt swapped.

Ive had too many experiences with Van Horstmaans Speculum lol!

Yrrdead
16-07-2011, 17:17
To rebut ;

In regards to the OP. The Colossi had additional hand weapon.

Additional hand weapon confers the Extra Attack special rule

Extra Attack special rule reads ;

A model with this special rule (or who is attacking with a weapon that bestows this special rule ) increases his Attacks value by 1.

Formless Horror to repeat


At the start of each Combat phase, the Changeling may choose an enemy model in base contact and 'swap' any or all of his Weapon Skill, Strength , Toughness, Initiative and Attacks values with those of the chosen foe until the end of that Combat phase.

Now in regards to most weapon modifiers including magical you would not receive the bonus because of timing.

By timing I mean , when you receive these modifiers which in the case of most weapons including magical is "when striking or being struck in close combat". Which is after the timing of Formless Horror.

In other cases this would fall under the following;


Q: Does a magic item or spell that gives a bonus to a characteristic, do so bonus for all rules purposes(e.g. the effect of spells, characteristic tests, etc)? (p4)
A: Yes, except for magic weapons or where the description of the item or spell specifically says otherwise.

AlphariusOmegon20
16-07-2011, 18:05
You would get whatever the base weapon skill of the lord is. As the above examples explain, the weapon only affects the bearer and any stats gained from the weapons isnt swapped.

Ive had too many experiences with Van Horstmaans Speculum lol!

Van Horstmann's is a bad example, even though it does things similarly.

VH can't swap any of the stats of a monstrous mount, the Changling can.

I'd say because of this difference between the two and the wording of the rule itself, you would get the full weapon skill which is applied before striking, as it changes your WS at the beginning of the game. You are no longer WS_, you are now and always WS 10, unless something changes it back during the game (Obsidian Armor is a good example of this)

Daemons are known to break the normal game rules and have a lot of exceptions. We shouldn't be surprised that the Changling would be that way too.

You're also always S6 with a great weapon, even if you are not in combat. The only time you'd be S4 is for the purposes of a characteristic test which is ALWAYS taken on you base Value.

Now to the OP:

No, you would not get the +1 attack. You only have 1 hand weapon. The colossus would still get the +1 for his extra weapon.

That answer's pretty straightforward.

The bearded one
16-07-2011, 18:22
"As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely just a result of wishful thinking." Pete Haines

I think the intention is just to take over the characteristics of the opponent, and not characteristic boosts gained by weapons and armour. It borders on dubious ruling and is unlikely to be accepted by many opponents.

buzz0783
16-07-2011, 22:21
"As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely just a result of wishful thinking." Pete Haines

I think the intention is just to take over the characteristics of the opponent, and not characteristic boosts gained by weapons and armour. It borders on dubious ruling and is unlikely to be accepted by many opponents.

But the Fencer's Blades don't give a boost, they swap your WS to WS10. Therefore surely the Changling can take the new WS?

EDMM
16-07-2011, 23:07
That is not the case.

The bearded one
16-07-2011, 23:12
But the Fencer's Blades don't give a boost, they swap your WS to WS10. Therefore surely the Changling can take the new WS?

The fencer's blades grant the bearer WS10. The changeling does not have the fencer's blades, the bearer does.

I would always play it as the changeling stealing the characteristics of his opponent but nothing more, for the sake of simplicity alone, let alone balance. And balance is a slippery slope indeed when talking about daemons and special characters.

JDman
17-07-2011, 08:11
The fencer's blades grant the bearer WS10. The changeling does not have the fencer's blades, the bearer does.

I would always play it as the changeling stealing the characteristics of his opponent but nothing more, for the sake of simplicity alone, let alone balance. And balance is a slippery slope indeed when talking about daemons and special characters.

I agree with this, essentially the weapon skill is coming for the weapon instead of the bearers WS which is less. It was kind of like the special character tomb king that has level 5 wizard level with the book, if he loses a wizard level his level so long as he has the book is 5 still, at the very least I would feel that they would both have WS10, since the changeling would get the modified WS but the weapon would still override the change and give the character WS 10

However this is really how I feel about it rather than what may or may not actually be the case.

As for the Colossus I would say you only get the 4 attacks as the additional attack comes from having the equipment itself.

T10
17-07-2011, 09:54
"As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely just a result of wishful thinking." Pete Haines


Pete Haines said that?

I thought I did.

-T10

The bearded one
17-07-2011, 10:16
Pete Haines said that?

I thought I did.

-T10

I knew it was in someones sig on warseer but couldn't find that person, so attempted to find it via google, where it said 'pete Haines' :p

Bodysnatcher
17-07-2011, 22:13
As the changeling's biggest fan I've always played a raw stat swap.

It works both ways because I might not get the shiny WS10 from the vampire lord's fencers blades, but I can use it to get a stratospherically high toughnes by nicking his toughness and adding the bonuses from flesh to stone.