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Atropos
05-08-2011, 22:36
Just a quick question, guys.

Can I through this spell into combat?
The spell says "Pick an enemy unit. if it is withing 24'' of the caster, that unit must take a LD test...".

The same goes for the Dreaded 13th actually. Do these spells work when thrown at units engaged?

Thank you so much.

Yrrdead
05-08-2011, 22:43
:shifty: :rolleyes: :wtf:

1. Get together with your gaming group.

2. Spend 15min codifying all spells that don't have a type.


The other answers to this question are going to follow the same path that the 100's of other threads on this subject have followed.

shakedown47
06-08-2011, 04:10
Actually you don't even need to go to that much trouble...and assigning spell types to the old armybook lores where none were before isn't strictly allowable by the rules at hand and unnecessary unless houseruling is the norm for your playgroup. What you can do is refer to page 31 whenever you have any questions of this sort.

Page 31 tells us that a target for Baleful Transmogrification must be within 24" of the caster, in his forward arc but not necessarily in his line of sight, and not engaged in combat.

Yrrdead
06-08-2011, 04:39
I was going to post a lengthy rebuttal but it would be a waste of time.

Maybe you've missed the other mega threads over this subject Shake but it isn't quite as simple as you make it out to be.

shakedown47
06-08-2011, 21:43
Maybe I have, I'll do a search when I have time. From what I remember (at work at the moment) the BRB makes reference to older army books whose spells "do not have a type" and simply says that any additional targeting requirements (or restrictions, can't remember the wording) would be included in the spell's explanation. Baleful Transmogrification does not state that it can be cast into combat, and since it doesn't have the spell type "direct damage," it can't. Again I'm all for groups houseruling anything they like, but that's the only way to assign spell types to spells that don't already have one.

Es Mors
06-08-2011, 22:53
From what I remember (at work at the moment) the BRB makes reference to older army books whose spells "do not have a type" and simply says that any additional targeting requirements (or restrictions, can't remember the wording) would be included in the spell's explanation.

Nope, it states "Some unique spells, or spells that are printed in older Warhammer books, do not have a type - their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply."

Meaning that the only casting restrictions that apply are in the army book. If the army book doesn't say "can't be cast into combat", then it can be cast into combat.

Scalebug
06-08-2011, 23:06
Nope, it states "Some unique spells, or spells that are printed in older Warhammer books, do not have a type - their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply."

Meaning that the only casting restrictions that apply are in the army book. If the army book doesn't say "can't be cast into combat", then it can be cast into combat.

Ehh... No. What you did there is picked a sentence out of a block of text... You have to read the entire passage "Choosing a Target". The four bullet points there applies unless stated otherwise, it says that some spells may be more or less restricted, either because being of the 8th Ed BRB introduced classes of spells, or for being in a older armybook.

Not into close combat is a general rule you need a specific allowance to go around, not something you are restricted by only if your spell says so.

Es Mors
06-08-2011, 23:29
Ehh... No. What you did there is picked a sentence out of a block of text... You have to read the entire passage "Choosing a Target". The four bullet points there applies unless stated otherwise, it says that some spells may be more or less restricted, either because being of the 8th Ed BRB introduced classes of spells, or for being in a older armybook.

Not into close combat is a general rule you need a specific allowance to go around, not something you are restricted by only if your spell says so.

Hm, I actualy had the whole text in mind when I wrote the post, but I see your point. It says "unless stated otherwise, the following rules apply." Then it says that the army rulebook will contain any restrictions that apply, which I understood as "stating otherwise". Really unsure how to interpret this now...

Scalebug
06-08-2011, 23:46
Think like this; The "Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat." restriction is listed along "The target must he within the spell's range." in the four bullet points. You wouldn't ignore the range of the spell because the spell doesn't explicitly telly you that your target must be within it (Eg. Viletide from the Beastman book, just because I had it in front of me... 24" range magic missile, doesn't say your target must be in range :p)

shakedown47
06-08-2011, 23:55
Here's how I see it. The four bullet points in the BRB apply to EVERY spell in the game ("unless stated otherwise the following rules apply," page 31.) One or more of these four bullet points can be "broken" by the rules for any given spell type.

Since the only spells in older armybooks that have an actual type are magic missiles (that I know of,) when trying to resolve anything else you must first refer to the four main bullet points that govern the casting of all spells. Then, look to the text of the spell to see if it has any other restrictions. If it doesn't specifically state that the spell can be cast into close combat, then it can't as per bullet point 4.

I can see how some people could convince themselves that "their text will contain ANY (emphasis mine) casting restrictions that apply" to mean that spells from older army books are immune to the four bullet points, but I personally can't convince myself of that. Baleful Transmogrification didn't need LOS or to be in the wizard's forward arc in 7th edition, now it does. The Hellcannon didn't have thunderstomp in 7th edition, now it does. Things change.

Es Mors
07-08-2011, 00:09
Well, I'm probably convinced. Do you also add the forward arc rule to the old spells, or does the text "pick a characet within 6 inches" (or something like that) overrule that?

EDIT: I just found and read a bit of the discussions on this topic, that Yrrdead was refering to. I think it's best if I retract the above question. :D