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Drakeus
08-10-2011, 21:53
I can't recall any "pieces of Psyche", although I know this codex very well....

Maybe French codex has got its own name for the same thing.

What are its stats?

TheLaughingGod
08-10-2011, 22:50
Probably means the shattershards.

Drakeus
08-10-2011, 23:27
That is odd, but still - I agree with titilititi, Shattershard's description is very imaginative.
Eldar Codex could use of that sort of thing.

etancross
09-10-2011, 07:20
How about making a seer council actually something to be feared again...

Farseers are fine, just give them a bigger pool of powers to pick from but keep them in their current buffing role.

Warlocks, make them more Philo Beddoe than Lynn Halsey, i mean wounding on a 2 is nice but they dont deny ANYONE their save... i mean come on... these guys are young seers, can't they at least kick some butt? Give them more powers, and make them worth a damn in combat.

All the prices for all the vehicles need to be looked at and lowered
More weapon choices that actually do something (lance rule is… ok but that’s it.. .just ok)

ASSAULT RAMPS!!!

Eldar are a… smidge older than the =][= but yet the imperium has come up with all these new advancements and the elder who have practiced the art of war since the warp was created have all these antiquated weapons that are NO WHERE NEAR as good as the =][=? Come on.. throw us a bone GW

Make swooping hawks relevant…. That is all i got for now....

insectum7
09-10-2011, 07:51
I think the Autarch is more or less a current re-imagining of what Exarchs were in 2nd Ed. I know fluff-wise he isn't, but as game design goes I thought it was a pretty clever nod to past Eldar incarnations.

(Note for those who may not know 2nd Ed: Exarchs used to not be bound to squads and could take any combination of wargear and exarch abilities.)

TheLaughingGod
09-10-2011, 08:08
I think the Autarch is more or less a current re-imagining of what Exarchs were in 2nd Ed. I know fluff-wise he isn't, but as game design goes I thought it was a pretty clever nod to past Eldar incarnations.

(Note for those who may not know 2nd Ed: Exarchs used to not be bound to squads and could take any combination of wargear and exarch abilities.)

You're right, which is both why he kind of doesn't fit and also kind of sucks.
Make them more like Exarchs in the background (Basically, Menshad Korum, but not trapped) and give them better wargear options (Exarch and unique relics)

insectum7
09-10-2011, 08:42
I dunno, I thought that was why he fit the current paradigm pretty well. He was a nod to the past, but at the same time unlocked an ability or two while not quite usurping the Farseer/Avatar for primary hero character.

Like the SM Chaplain currently, for example. He's got his nifty but limited gear and his special ability, but the Captain is the SM hero/icon with the higher WS and more wounds.

TheLaughingGod
09-10-2011, 08:48
I dunno, I thought that was why he fit the current paradigm pretty well. He was a nod to the past, but at the same time unlocked an ability or two while not quite usurping the Farseer/Avatar for primary hero character.

Like the SM Chaplain currently, for example. He's got his nifty but limited gear and his special ability, but the Captain is the SM hero/icon with the higher WS and more wounds.

But look how many people use Autarchs? Farseers are better in every way basically and the Avatar gives the army a buff whilst also being tougher. Autarchs simply aren't competitive, and their background is just odd (Why do they have all that strange gear? Why is there a path specifically for people who aren't locked in paths? What exactly does the path of command entail? Why are Autarchs better fighters than Exarchs? Why are Autarchs better strategists than Farseers or the Avatar?)

Edit: Plus, it's the perfect way to explain how new shrines are created/where new Phoenix Lords come from.

insectum7
09-10-2011, 09:23
Good points, good points. . . I agree that the Path of Command seems like a weird cop-out.

And at the same time, I don't think I've seen a Chaplain in a non-BA list for quite a while, sooo maybe they're both just not quite balanced.

But I'm not sure that making the Autarch a straight up CC guy is the right way to go either, I feel like that too would be a cop-out. I think I'd prefer it if he was really manipulative and irritating in the way Exarchs used to be. Make him real slippery to deal with, maybe able to leave combat and be hard to hit or tie up squads without much danger to himself, things like that. (Those old Exarchs were a pain in the *** to get rid of!!) That way he wouldn't encroach on the territory of the Avatar, nor simply be a mirror to the SM Captain.

Sarevok
09-10-2011, 11:15
Now if only they'd let an Eldar fan write the next dex. <sigh>

The last two were by Phil Kelly and Gav Thorpe, both big Eldar fans.

Unless you mean Eldar fans like the ones in whishlisting threads, in which case that would be the worst thing to ever happen to 40k.

Sildani
09-10-2011, 14:56
+1 to the above. There's a great deal of passion here, which is excellent, but also a tendency to fix almost all of the Eldar's weaknesses, which is not. Fragility is not enough of a weakness by itself.

Solonor
09-10-2011, 17:35
The last two were by Phil Kelly and Gav Thorpe, both big Eldar fans.

Unless you mean Eldar fans like the ones in whishlisting threads, in which case that would be the worst thing to ever happen to 40k.


+1 to the above. There's a great deal of passion here, which is excellent, but also a tendency to fix almost all of the Eldar's weaknesses, which is not. Fragility is not enough of a weakness by itself.

+2 im a big Eldar fan, and although i would love to write the Eldar Dex i know i wouldnt contain myself hehe...

Regarding HQs (my opinion of course)

- warlocks should be a separate path from the seer, should have, destructive and enhancing powers, and for a 2 lvl type of warlock, 2 attacks base and powers

- Farseers should have more manipulative and subtle powers, but also one or two destructive powers. they shouldnt be great in close combat.

- Exarchs should be the fightier specialists, they should have 2 lvls, one representing the inital entrapment on their path when their body his still in the process of fusing with the armour and the soul of the current warrior his learning to tap the other exarch souls (current stats), and another lvl when the process his complete and the exarch taps to the full power of the armor ( 2 wound and better fighting stats and acess to powers).

- Autarch are Eldar warriors the have thread many military associated paths (including the witch path), they shouldnt be more effective then a fully powered exarch in combat (regarding offensive power), but should have acess to different equipment (including warlock equipment), benefit from aspect skills, and choose from some Warlock powers too. also should have a choice of strategic skills, some already mentioned here.

Shamana
09-10-2011, 20:04
"they shouldnt be more effective then a fully powered exarch in combat"

Unless the exarch get a lot more powerful, I say the autarch should be better. Put plainly, I'd like to see a "combat" HQ that is not the avatar or a special character. The autarch is close enough to that: someone who's travelled all accessible warrior paths, and mastered them all before moving to the next challenge, and lived that way for centuries should be pretty darn good. The current base stats with better wargear and possibly some rules from the aspect squads the autarch trained with should be quite sufficient. By the way, as far as I know there is no source ever noting that an autarch has walked the seer path, so there should imo be no crossover into psyker territory for them. If you want a warrior psyker HQ, have an option for a farseer to be a better warrior - i.e. having been a warlock before becoming a farseer. A second base attack wouldn't be a tragedy considering that the IG primaris psyker has 3.

Besides, by the same logic SM captains shouldn't be better warriors than the sergeants they command. The current codex says the chapter has many great warriors, but a captain must be a strategist, master of logistics, tactician, diplomat, orator, and so on. Heck, compared to the Autarch with his mere focus on warfare, Smurf Bosses are chronic overachievers ;) .

Kyrolon
09-10-2011, 20:18
The last two were by Phil Kelly and Gav Thorpe, both big Eldar fans.

Unless you mean Eldar fans like the ones in whishlisting threads, in which case that would be the worst thing to ever happen to 40k.

I mean fans of the codexes who don't take the "less is more" approach that Thorpe and Kelly did. Let's face it, every edition has seen this army lose more and more of its uniquesness, and, yes, its power.

From 2nd to 3rd edition the range of the primary weapon was cut in half.
From 3rd to 4th the ability to assault out of transports was removed, our best anti MEQ weapon was nerfed.
From 4th to 5th skimmers took a big hit, every army got to move just as fast, and most imperial forces have better fast vehicles than we do.

Add to this the fact that the current batch of imperial codexes might as well have come out of a wishlisting thread (fleet terminators? REALLY?--and with a 3+ invuln.?) and yes I want an Eldar codex that is just as over the top.

Why did we lose sustained assault on a St3 model as "too powerful" only to have it reappear on a frakkin' Space Marine Dreadnaught?
Why can EVERY SINGLE imperial skimmer deep strike, but no Eldar skimmers can?

Why can every imperial army have some form of accurate deepstrike and Eldar can't?

Why are all the Eldar weapons shorter range than human equivalent. Kinda makes fast pointless if you need to lose a turn of shooting to get into range.

Why do almost every other army's elite HTH troops get 2 attacks but ours get 1.

Why are marine librarians better psykers than Farseers? Sure Guide and fortune are nice, but a 6" range on a t3 character severely handicaps them.

Yes I want more power in the Eldar codex. I'm tired of the only valid strategy being "keep away" and grab objectives. My friends don't like playing that list and neither do I. Can it win? Yes. Is it fun? No.

I remember when I started 40k. I wanted an army that had variety, fluidity, and looked nice. The changes to the game have left only one of those. At least my Eldar still look nice.

/rant.

titilititi
09-10-2011, 21:22
Totally Ok with Kryolon : the probleme is the later (imperial) codices that followed ours. Special rules and equipment at every floor, power increased for less points etc...
Whereas it's now about 15 years Eldar players live the opposite.
Maybe Eldar were too strong in 2nd edition, but it was also because we had already most of the eldar range, and a very good and fast transport (the falcon) in a times most of the other armies were made foot walking soldiers.
But now that most of the armies have reduced the gape, in term of range and transport, it's hard to understand why Eldars are that mistreated (it's more why other (imperial) armies so favored)
I really hope with GW will balance it a little better in 6th edition.

kasrkinsquad
09-10-2011, 21:37
Why can EVERY SINGLE imperial skimmer deep strike, but no Eldar skimmers can?



In regards to the Valkyrie/Storm Raven/Vulture/Vendettas I would imagine that it has to do with the core rules not having helicopter like units in mind. Basically treating Valks and the like as skimmers is the only real thing you can do to BS a helo in a regular 40k game. Hell if you read any of the FW books that contain these units they are listed as flyers with a hover mode. In the recent books that hover mode was changed to counting as a skimmer. Previously it was just that the unit would hover in the air and get to fire or drop passengers.

TheLaughingGod
09-10-2011, 22:23
I mean fans of the codexes who don't take the "less is more" approach that Thorpe and Kelly did. Let's face it, every edition has seen this army lose more and more of its uniquesness, and, yes, its power.

From 2nd to 3rd edition the range of the primary weapon was cut in half.
From 3rd to 4th the ability to assault out of transports was removed, our best anti MEQ weapon was nerfed.
From 4th to 5th skimmers took a big hit, every army got to move just as fast, and most imperial forces have better fast vehicles than we do.

Add to this the fact that the current batch of imperial codexes might as well have come out of a wishlisting thread (fleet terminators? REALLY?--and with a 3+ invuln.?) and yes I want an Eldar codex that is just as over the top.

Why did we lose sustained assault on a St3 model as "too powerful" only to have it reappear on a frakkin' Space Marine Dreadnaught?
Why can EVERY SINGLE imperial skimmer deep strike, but no Eldar skimmers can?

Why can every imperial army have some form of accurate deepstrike and Eldar can't?

Why are all the Eldar weapons shorter range than human equivalent. Kinda makes fast pointless if you need to lose a turn of shooting to get into range.

Why do almost every other army's elite HTH troops get 2 attacks but ours get 1.

Why are marine librarians better psykers than Farseers? Sure Guide and fortune are nice, but a 6" range on a t3 character severely handicaps them.

Yes I want more power in the Eldar codex. I'm tired of the only valid strategy being "keep away" and grab objectives. My friends don't like playing that list and neither do I. Can it win? Yes. Is it fun? No.

I remember when I started 40k. I wanted an army that had variety, fluidity, and looked nice. The changes to the game have left only one of those. At least my Eldar still look nice.

/rant.


QFT. Also, I note that someone stated "Fragility is not enough of a weakness"

Excuse me? What weaknesses do Grey Knights have? Blood Angels? Imperial Guard? I don't know they have weaknesses that aren't either trivial or easily compensated for with different builds. I don't see why Eldar have to be the ones who have a huge glaring achilles heel, especially when their strengths keep being reduced or blatantly given to Imperial armies.

Basically, 5th (and I imagine 6th) is the editions of removing weaknesses, adding strengths and play style options. Which frankly, is a good thing. I would LIKE to have multiple playstyle options with one army. It adds value.

Edit: What exactly is everyone's source for Farseer/Warlocks not having destructive psyker powers? In other words, justify by background and game history this trend of trying to pidgeonhole them as primarily supportive casters.

Spell_of_Destruction
09-10-2011, 23:16
Edit: What exactly is everyone's source for Farseer/Warlocks not having destructive psyker powers? In other words, justify by background and game history this trend of trying to pidgeonhole them as primarily supportive casters.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread - it's covered in the 2nd ed Dark Millenium supplement. If you're not familiar with this, it was the separate 2nd ed supplement which provided the rules for all the psychic powers in the game.

I don't have my copy to hand but essentially the supplement explains that it is too dangerous for Eldar seers to tap directly into the warp for psychic energy hence the use of runes and seer stones. In game terms this translated into a lot of easy to cast 'buff' powers.

Two points:-

1) You could argue that the age of this fluff means that it is not 100% relevant but I would then point out that the fluff in the 4th ed codex is basically a paraphrased version of the 2nd ed codex fluff and that I have not read anything which contradicts this.

2) The 'weaker' runic powers of 2nd ed were balanced by the fact that they were easy to cast. This was when the psychic phase was more or less identical to the WHFB magic phase at the time and all psychic powers had a casting value of 1-3. Due the way that psyhcic powers work from 3rd ed onwards, this 'ease of casting' balance no longer exists. Arguably we should retain the supportive style powers but have the ability to cast them more often (which is why earlier in the thread I advocate a Mastery Level 2 regular Farseer and a Master Level 3 'Ancient Farseer').

I am fairly certain that we'll get a serious buff in psychic ability in the next codex considering that all of the more recent powerful psychic additions post date our current codex. I just wouldn't bet on a sudden influx of highly destructive offensive powers.

Unless of course Matt Ward writes the codex - he's quite happy to p*** on established fluff.

TheLaughingGod
10-10-2011, 00:00
I mentioned this earlier in the thread - it's covered in the 2nd ed Dark Millenium supplement. If you're not familiar with this, it was the separate 2nd ed supplement which provided the rules for all the psychic powers in the game.

I don't have my copy to hand but essentially the supplement explains that it is too dangerous for Eldar seers to tap directly into the warp for psychic energy hence the use of runes and seer stones. In game terms this translated into a lot of easy to cast 'buff' powers.

Two points:-

1) You could argue that the age of this fluff means that it is not 100% relevant but I would then point out that the fluff in the 4th ed codex is basically a paraphrased version of the 2nd ed codex fluff and that I have not read anything which contradicts this.

2) The 'weaker' runic powers of 2nd ed were balanced by the fact that they were easy to cast. This was when the psychic phase was more or less identical to the WHFB magic phase at the time and all psychic powers had a casting value of 1-3. Due the way that psyhcic powers work from 3rd ed onwards, this 'ease of casting' balance no longer exists. Arguably we should retain the supportive style powers but have the ability to cast them more often (which is why earlier in the thread I advocate a Mastery Level 2 regular Farseer and a Master Level 3 'Ancient Farseer').

I am fairly certain that we'll get a serious buff in psychic ability in the next codex considering that all of the more recent powerful psychic additions post date our current codex. I just wouldn't bet on a sudden influx of highly destructive offensive powers.

Unless of course Matt Ward writes the codex - he's quite happy to p*** on established fluff.
I do have my copy of Dark Millenium... Lets go look, shall we?
Alright. Eldar runic powers have 3 buff/hex powers and 2 offensive powers
Librarians have 4 buffing powers and zero offensive powers with the potential to gain tertiary powers from adeptus and inquisition lists. Adeptus powers are 3 buff/movement and machine curse. Inquisition actually has two offensive powes and two buffs/hexes for a total of 9 buff/hex and three offensive powers.

Eldar ratio- 3:2
Space Marine ratio- 3:1

It also states that Librarians "concentrate on enhancement and protection"

So if you're going by this, Marines shouldnt have ANY damaging psychic powers and Eldar should have more than the Grey Knights.

Son of Russ
10-10-2011, 00:31
As a bonus, Path of the Seer shows Warlocks AND Farseers basically using Psychic lightning and fire attacks as well as Psychic fire shields.

And this was written by Gav Thorpe, a big Eldar fan. I'd say it is perfectly reasonable to say that Seers who have a War-Mask know how to channel their aggresion into offensive powers.

Spell_of_Destruction
10-10-2011, 00:36
I don't have the resources at my disposal to go into the detail with you but as someone who actually played quite a lot of 2nd edition back in the day, (although my memory is a little hazy) I have a fair grasp of how Eldar actually played in practice.

First you've conveniently ignored the description of Eldar runic powers in the supplement itself.

Second, Eldar had four offensive powers - Destructor, Eldritch Storm, Mind War and Executioner. We still have three of these powers (and very similar to their 2nd ed counterparts) and most of us can agree than Eldritch storm needs a boost. Executioner is largely redundant with the inclusion of the Singing Spear. Saying that offensive power from x deck = offensive power from y deck is disingenous. Our offensive powers weren't particularly high damage. Destructor was the only 'true' offensive power.

Guide, Doom, Fortune and Battle Fate - these were the powers which won games. These powers mark the Farseer out as a divinator - turning him into a battle seer goes against the whole concept. If Eldritch Storm gets a boost I'm not really sure what extra offensive powers we need or want anyway.

Look, I'm as big an Eldar fan-boy as the next. I just don't support the calls of "MOAR PAOWAR!!!" with regards to Eldar psychic powers. It's not that I don't advocate giving them a buff, I think we just disagree as to how this should be implemented. Please see my suggestions earlier in the thread (which are probably a bit much TBH).

EDIT: What I'm saying (in a nutshell) is - let's work with what we've got. I'd rather see improvements to existing powers than the addition of new powers just for the hell of it.
____________________________

bobafett_h
10-10-2011, 00:41
Farseers should have access to at least a couple of decent destructive powers. Eldritch Storm and Mind War for instance always make me think of amazing abilities for killing and destroying stuff, but end up pretty lame on the table. All ES seems to be good for is spinning vehicles around to shoot them in the rear while MW is only good for targetting multi-wound characters in units. MW should be far more dangerous and able to be used to snipe HQ characters.

The fluff around the Hive Fleet Kraken invasion of the Iyanden Craftworld indicates their top Farseer at the time, Kelmon was found dead with about a dozen dead Zoanthropes around him. I'd love to see a Farseer capable of doing even half of that in a game...

In addition to better Farseers and the big list I posted on page 7, there are a few other things I'd want to see in the next Codex. One thing being that Some of the Exarch Powers become defaults for the entire squad, and newer/more elite powers become available.

For instance, if the Shuriken Catapult is made 18" range and Assault 2 as standard, Dire Avengers have Bladestorm by default which makes it Assault 3 for them, but get rid of the reloading thing next turn. Howling Banshees should all have Counter-Attack as standard, Warp Spiders get the ability to always Deep Strike, and perhaps Dark Reapers reduce cover saves on enemy units by 1 (a cut down version of Crack Shot). The Exarch powers should be awesome and apply to the entire squad in most cases. Burning Fist for Fire Dragons should come back, as should Sustained Assault for Swooping Hawks.

Also, after reading other suggestions, I'd agree about things like Farseers being able to use 2 powers as standard, and Spirit Stones granting a 3rd. Perhaps even have a lower level Seer that can only use 1 power as standard. But regardless, the range, point costs and rules on the current powers need to be updated and improved. A couple of extra powers (offensive and defensive) would be greatly appreciated.

Sticking Bonesingers with Warlocks probably wouldn't make sense if a Seer Council was intended to be for close combat but then again Farseers aren't really meant for that either. But really, this is Eldar's answer to the Marine Command Squads, and should have various options to customise for different roles. A supporting Seer Council would be all about buffs and a Bonesinger would make perfect sense there, but would make less sense in one kitted out for assaulting and destruction. Some kind of model carrying a big banner could be good too...

I also love the suggestion of letting units with Fleet assault from transports that would not normally allow it. The current iteration of this USR really doesn't do enough, and several units were nerfed when suddenly all units were able to Run. This would certainly solve the issue of not having assault ramps on Falcons and Wave Serpents...

TheLaughingGod
10-10-2011, 00:56
I don't have the resources at my disposal to go into the detail with you but as someone who actually played quite a lot of 2nd edition back in the day, (although my memory is a little hazy) I have a fair grasp of how Eldar actually played in practice.

First you've conveniently ignored the description of Eldar runic powers in the supplement itself.

Second, Eldar had four offensive powers - Destructor, Eldritch Storm, Mind War and Executioner. We still have three of these powers (and very similar to their 2nd ed counterparts) and most of us can agree than Eldritch storm needs a boost. Executioner is largely redundant with the inclusion of the Singing Spear. Saying that offensive power from x deck = offensive power from y deck is disingenous. Our offensive powers weren't particularly high damage. Destructor was the only 'true' offensive power.

Guide, Doom, Fortune and Battle Fate - these were the powers which won games. These powers mark the Farseer out as a divinator - turning him into a battle seer goes against the whole concept. If Eldritch Storm gets a boost I'm not really sure what extra offensive powers we need or want anyway.

Look, I'm as big an Eldar fan-boy as the next. I just don't support the calls of "MOAR PAOWAR!!!" with regards to Eldar psychic powers. It's not that I don't advocate giving them a buff, I think we just disagree as to how this should be implemented. Please see my suggestions earlier in the thread (which are probably a bit much TBH).

EDIT: What I'm saying (in a nutshell) is - let's work with what we've got. I'd rather see improvements to existing powers than the addition of new powers just for the hell of it.
____________________________

hmm. I may missing the page with some of those powers on it :/
In regards to fluff, as I said librarians were defensive buffing psykers too according to that book. Currently, Eldar Warlocks are the top battle psykers according to 4th Ed codex. I think we can make a case for better psychic power.

I've seen your suggestions. You're a little too 3rd Ed conservative for my liking
This is 5th Ed, not 3rd. Oh, and singing spear doesnt make executioner redundant. Back then, you dealt more than one attack and you often ignored armor too

Inquisitor Kallus
10-10-2011, 01:09
I don't have my copy to hand but essentially the supplement explains that it is too dangerous for Eldar seers to tap directly into the warp for psychic energy hence the use of runes and seer stones. In game terms this translated into a lot of easy to cast 'buff' powers.





I have read something similar somewhere before. The Eldar used more subtle powers to not draw as much attention to themselves from the warp. I might have been in Dark Millenium, youre probably right, I just dont know where my copy is. That said, their powers were still pretty destructive and powerful.

Maybe it just adds to the whole 'theyre holding back' thing and that if they were to unleash their most powerful psychic attacks there could be dire consequences. And as most of us know an Eldars soul shine more brightly than a humans...

Spell_of_Destruction
10-10-2011, 01:12
hmm. I may missing the page with some of those powers on it :/
In regards to fluff, as I said librarians were defensive buffing psykers too according to that book. Currently, Eldar Warlocks are the top battle psykers according to 4th Ed codex. I think we can make a case for better psychic power.

The book doesn't have all the psychic powers. There were 8 powers in each deck (apart from the Chaos decks which only had 4 each).

Maybe Warlocks could do with a re-imagining. If you want significantly better powers though then they would have to become characters and cast the psyhcic powers like everyone else.


I've seen your suggestions. You're a little too 3rd Ed conservative for my liking
This is 5th Ed, not 3rd. Oh, and singing spear doesnt make executioner redundant. Back then, you dealt more than one attack and you often ignored armor too

The boosts I proposed to Doom, Guide and Fortune are pretty powerful. I have also proposed that Eldar should be capable of having a Mastery Level 4 psyker (Farseer Ancient + seer stones). What sort of extra boost are you looking for?

TheLaughingGod
10-10-2011, 01:36
The book doesn't have all the psychic powers. There were 8 powers in each deck (apart from the Chaos decks which only had 4 each).

Maybe Warlocks could do with a re-imagining. If you want significantly better powers though then they would have to become characters and cast the psyhcic powers like everyone else.



The boosts I proposed to Doom, Guide and Fortune are pretty powerful. I have also proposed that Eldar should be capable of having a Mastery Level 4 psyker (Farseer Ancient + seer stones). What sort of extra boost are you looking for?

ah, I went back and looked. I confused your suggestions with someone elses. Like what you propose, the only thing I'd add is that destructive powers gain similar options and the witchblade /spear ignore armor saves.

Panther Al
10-10-2011, 01:56
Regarding DT's:

Allow both Falcon's and Wave Serpents to be so, but give the Wave Serpent something to encourage its use over the Falcon. Something along the lines as its more an APC than an IFV like the Falcon, allow troops transported in the WS to assault out of it, in the direction the door is pointing - perhaps a sort of fluffy doctrine where the WS uses its shields and speed to burst past troops holding the line, and then, as soon as the WS is past that unit, the ramp drops and the troops attack into the rear of the unit, giving some sort of modifier to the "surprise" attack nature of it. Of course the downside of this is if the unit assaulted survives, they have a nice up the kilt shot at a WS, which might balance things out some.

Just my thoughts, taken with salt since I haven't played since 3E days.

Spell_of_Destruction
10-10-2011, 03:03
The main problem with the Falcon right now is that the extra firepower isn't much of an advantage over the WS. However, I still see plenty of people using them with DAVU units (five man Dire Avenger units who only exist to make the vehicle scoring) because with the holo-field they are still one of the toughest vehicles in the game to crack.

At the very least you should be able to fire the two turret weapons together at crusing speed.

TheLaughingGod
10-10-2011, 03:06
Perhaps if the falcon had the ability to always fire a weapon even if shaken, stunned, moved flatout?

Might be a tad strong, but at best that's two pulse laser shots?

Athlan na Dyr
10-10-2011, 03:26
The boosts I proposed to Doom, Guide and Fortune are pretty powerful. I have also proposed that Eldar should be capable of having a Mastery Level 4 psyker (Farseer Ancient + seer stones). What sort of extra boost are you looking for?

Yeah... I'm seeing a few large problems with this...

1) Perils. Casting 4 psychic powers a turn will eventually mean that your Farseer is going on a one way trip straight to the warp. Now if he was cheap enough that the risk vs. return was still in favour of the Eldar player, it wouldn't be that bad, except for reason 2

2) Balance Issues. With the more powerful buffs available, it becomes an utter pain in the **** to cost things effectively. For example, lets take the wave serpent. A large number of people have been calling for a price drop, and indeed many expect it. However, the fact remains that it is a transport that can get a re-rollable 4+ cover save every turn, via fortune and moving quickly. As such, someone in games development would immediately suggest that it would need a price hike - it would be far too good for ~75-80 points. This applies to the rest of the army, and results in the general sentiment of things being too high for their points vs. damage. Banshees exemplify this - worth their points with Doom vs. MEQ, overcosted without. This results in a near necessity for a Farseer.
There are a few solutions; the first is dramatically increasing the farseer's cost, the second is the current increase in cost of other units and the third is to tone down the current set of powers. Unfortunately all of these have their drawbacks, notably including the Farseer's vulnerability with perils and poor statline, the player feeling forced to take a farseer and people being annoyed that the farseer is getting weaker whilst everyone else's psychers are getting more powerful.

This situation is one of the real problems with the current dex, and I'm not seeing an easy solution... I mean, perhaps immunity to perils (but still with the option to fail the psychic test) combined with eternal warrior (fluffy due to becoming crystaline?) to minimise the farseer's vulnerabilities, meaning that a large points increase wouldn't be too hard to stomach... If anyone else has any suggestions, do tell.

In regards to other suggestions, 18" shuri-cats are still not going to be enough. Rapid fire will carve through guardians regardless. However, 24" does seem a bit much (just because GK can have henchmen with stormbolters for less doesn't mean this would be balanced, merely that guardians would be just as undercosted [similar situation with tactical squads and grey hunters])
4+ armour and 18" assault 2 for 9-10 points in squads of 5-10, with option for heavy weapon platforms for every 5 models, or support platform for every 10 sounds reasonable.
Avengers then 24" with 4+, CCW and Pistol and grenades for 12-13 points. (or 14 with rending) This means that the Guardians still have the 'sit back and camp with a heavy weapon role' whilst the Avengers are solid all rounders.

With Autarchs, i would make them a little bit cheaper, access to 'Craftworld Heirlooms' [i.e. funky stuff which perhaps the farseer could also have access to] as well as the basic aspect weapons and either
a) d3 units become scoring or
b) Make one unit of infantry troops.
Of the two, I'm leaning towards the second because it isn't a carbon copy of the GK grand master's rule and it tweaks the FOC without invalidating it completely.
Either of these would enable aspects (or indeed, wraithguard) to take and hold objectives. This could be scorpions infiltrating onto one, reapers providing a steady centre for a firebase on top of one or one of the FA aspects leaping on top of one in the last few stages of the game (as opposed to say the current 3 man jetbike). In other words, a measure of diversity and different playing styles, such as combat armies being able to take and hold without having to rely on a DAVU falcon or the aforementioned 3 jetbikes.

My thoughts, take as you will.

Spell_of_Destruction
10-10-2011, 04:25
Yeah... I'm seeing a few large problems with this...

1) Perils. Casting 4 psychic powers a turn will eventually mean that your Farseer is going on a one way trip straight to the warp. Now if he was cheap enough that the risk vs. return was still in favour of the Eldar player, it wouldn't be that bad, except for reason 2

Really? Given that we have the option to take the Ghost Helm I'm not really sure this is too much of a concern.


2) Balance Issues. With the more powerful buffs available, it becomes an utter pain in the **** to cost things effectively. For example, lets take the wave serpent. A large number of people have been calling for a price drop, and indeed many expect it. However, the fact remains that it is a transport that can get a re-rollable 4+ cover save every turn, via fortune and moving quickly. As such, someone in games development would immediately suggest that it would need a price hike - it would be far too good for ~75-80 points. This applies to the rest of the army, and results in the general sentiment of things being too high for their points vs. damage. Banshees exemplify this - worth their points with Doom vs. MEQ, overcosted without. This results in a near necessity for a Farseer.

This is a mistake however. The balance should be factored into the cost of the Farseer and his psychic power (which it is) not in the units who may or may not benefit from that psychic power. 'GW can't balance it right' is a poor argument against a concept.

Currently we pay around 80ts for a bare Doom-Seer. Considering the fact that the Farseer is little use for anything else, why on earth should the benefit of the re-rolls be factored into the cost of any other unit?

Similarly, if the cost of Farseers and psychic powers remains the same, I reckon you would be looking at a ballpark figure of 200-250pts for a level 4 Farseer. You could get a whole squad of Aspect Warriors for the same price. I'm not saying that the concept doesn't need to be playtested - obviously it does but I don't see anything inherently broken as you suggest. The 'abuse' you have suggested is already possible in 5th edition.

I expect that 6th ed will change a lot of things with a view to 'fixing' the current Transport heavy meta-game (one thing I'm expecting is that squads will not be able to take objectives if embarked).

Panther Al
10-10-2011, 04:36
The main problem with the Falcon right now is that the extra firepower isn't much of an advantage over the WS. However, I still see plenty of people using them with DAVU units (five man Dire Avenger units who only exist to make the vehicle scoring) because with the holo-field they are still one of the toughest vehicles in the game to crack.

At the very least you should be able to fire the two turret weapons together at crusing speed.

I'm seeing the DAVU thing a good bit since I started nosing about to get back into the game. From a mechanical perspective, assuming I am reading the rules right, this is perhaps the one thing that the Eldar can do better than any other army out there. As mentioned, last played when the plastic Guardians was new, so unsure as how the changes in the rules will play out, but my basic impression comparing the '06 codex with the 3E one is that Eldar has taken an overall hit in effectiveness. Assuming for the moment that I am not seeing things, I am hoping that any such 6E version addresses this viewpoint: From what I read seems that the old idea of the Eldar being the fastests high techiest army out there is no longer true: Marines and Tau have taken that mantle. So, long story short, please please make 6E Eldar back into the Fastest thing around, with the heaviest firepower and the thinnest glass armour around that they used to be.

Spell_of_Destruction
10-10-2011, 04:46
So, long story short, please please make 6E Eldar back into the Fastest thing around, with the heaviest firepower and the thinnest glass armour around that they used to be.

The problem is that this is really Dark Eldar's bag - they're the true glass cannon of 40k. I think that ideally Craftworld Eldar should have a similar damage output (per model) but sacrifice numbers for better armour.

If there's any truth in the 6th ed rumours then I think that we'll benefit from the edition change. The rumours floating around a few months ago suggested that Fleet would become a major advantage again (close to worthless in 5th) and that units with Fleet will even be able to assault from moving transports (this would be huge).

The costing is a major issue in the current codex. Some of the units are fine as are but are 2-5pts per model too expensive.

Brother-Captain Endymion
10-10-2011, 04:47
So, long story short, please please make 6E Eldar back into the Fastest thing around, with the heaviest firepower and the thinnest glass armour around that they used to be.
The problem with this is that you are already describing Dark Eldar. No, I'd like the Eldar to be a tad bit slower, with a bit more armor. A heavier DE, if you will.

Really, I wouldn't ask for too much. I'd like a points decrease on the Serpent, some strategic options for the Autarch (a bit better gear wouldn't hurt - he doesn't need to be a CC monster, but for Asuryan's sake, give me a reason to use him over Yriel!), and I'd really like to see the Farseer come with Mind War and/or Runes of Warding for free. Librarians get a psychic hood, so...

BCE.

EDIT: Damn you, SoD! You iNinja!

Panther Al
10-10-2011, 05:03
Fair enough. :)

So, Second Fastest, but reasonably tough.

Only experience with DE I've had was when they came out back when, and they wasn't all that great to be honest.

Though those old coloured metallic paints from way back in the day (The ones in the white flip-top bottles before the black caps came into use) really was the best paints for DE in my opinion. Very Very Sharp.

Athlan na Dyr
10-10-2011, 06:46
Really? Given that we have the option to take the Ghost Helm I'm not really sure this is too much of a concern.

Yeah, sorry. I'm still stuck in the days of 4th with s6 perils. Doh!


This is a mistake however. The balance should be factored into the cost of the Farseer and his psychic power (which it is) not in the units who may or may not benefit from that psychic power. 'GW can't balance it right' is a poor argument against a concept.

Currently we pay around 80ts for a bare Doom-Seer. Considering the fact that the Farseer is little use for anything else, why on earth should the benefit of the re-rolls be factored into the cost of any other unit?

Similarly, if the cost of Farseers and psychic powers remains the same, I reckon you would be looking at a ballpark figure of 200-250pts for a level 4 Farseer. You could get a whole squad of Aspect Warriors for the same price. I'm not saying that the concept doesn't need to be playtested - obviously it does but I don't see anything inherently broken as you suggest. The 'abuse' you have suggested is already possible in 5th edition.

I expect that 6th ed will change a lot of things with a view to 'fixing' the current Transport heavy meta-game (one thing I'm expecting is that squads will not be able to take objectives if embarked).

200-250 points does sound reasonable for what the farseer can do. Unfortunately, the inherent fragility of a T3 model must also be considered (even if the farseer has a reasonable number of wounds, the lack of Eternal Warrior really does hurt), especially with the proposed changes to wound allocation from shooting for 6th edition. This is something that they NEED to consider, otherwise the farseer becomes overcosted and a sub-par choice, which in turn leads to fewer model sales.
This then brings up problems with transports. If you shove a farseer in a serpent, then T3 doesn't matter in the slightest, which leads to the farseer being undercosted - in other words the transport has skewed the output vs. survivbility, leading to a balance issue.

This sort of balancing act is further skewed by powerful buffs like Fortune, Doom and Guide. For example, when casting guide on War Walkers the power is more effective than when cast on a unit of guardians. So how then do you price Guide? By choosing the median benefit? What happens if a players list doesn't include the better choices? What if it does?

To me, this is the key thing they are going to have to get right, otherwise some units will feel overcosted "by 2-5 points" without the use of a farseer and the appropriate power or undercosted, resulting in other players crying cheese and refusing to play you.



That is what I mean by balance issues. Perhaps I didn't phrase it right so I'll try again; What each buff is worth is dependant on what it is being cast at, meaning that a 'one size fits all' price will have issues. It would be like having a ranged weapon cost exactly the same on both a BS4 and a BS3 model.

To my mind, what happened in the last dex was that some units had a slight cost increase to compensate for the potential buffs, which is bad if you don't take a farseer/ don't buff that unit. However, if GW didn't do this, then a Farseer will either feel overcosted or undercosted depending on the force composition, resulting in the dreaded 'power list' whilst other units stand neglected.

I do realise that the same argument can be had for weapon X against unit Y, what with DE splinter weaponry against wraithlords or conversely a Dark Lance against an infantry list, but I do feel that the issue with psychic powers has more of an impact on the game, especially if three to four of these buffs are going off per turn.

Feel free to disagree, but I'm worried that some builds will become no brainers whilst others will struggle and I for one don't want that.

Shamana
10-10-2011, 07:30
Fair enough. :)

So, Second Fastest, but reasonably tough.

Or just as fast, tougher, and more expensive.

bobafett_h
10-10-2011, 08:15
Dark Eldar should not necessarily be faster (their vehicles should still only move as fast as a standard Eldar equivalent) but they should make heavier use of fast vehicles (which they currently already do with the heavy use of Raiders, Venoms, etc.) and more use of the webway since that is where they live.

Eldar definitely need to have better armour and smaller numbers. I also feel that their technology should come across as slightly superior to Dark Eldar, but in a more ancient way. The Tau's technology would be similar in ablity, but newer and less perfected. Sort of like comparion Imperial Plasma weapons (Gets hot!) to Eldar Plasma weapons...

It has been mentioned that Dark Eldar have no, or limited access to materials like Wraithbone so are not able to manufacturer weapons and vehicles and stuff in the same manner as before The Fall. This means they have to resort to other materials for building things. They are still just as intelligent as the Craftworld dwellers, but their technology is not made the same and is modified anyway due to their obsession with pain...

Every Eldar should be superior to a human in practically every way. Their bodies should be faster, stronger and more agile, and their minds far more attuned. What makes Eldar fragile should not be reflected by their stats, or armour or technology, it should only be because they are limited in numbers and nearing extinction as a race. Their technology should make up for their physical shortcomings as their dwindling numbers means that they have a greater desire to preserve their lives...

jt.glass
10-10-2011, 11:49
Dire Avengers should be the one multi role aspect. Their equipment should be Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Pistol, CCW, Plasma Grenades (offensive), Tanglefoot grenades (defensive), and Haywire Grenades. Since pretty much all the Imperial forces got free grenades this shouldn't be much (if any) points increase. It would also differentiate Avengers from Guardians assuming Guardians get an 18" Catapult that they really need.This, except I still say they should be 24" both.


Guardian squad size should be 5-10. This would allow them to be a supporting unit.I'd prefer 6-18. 5s and 10s are how the Imperials do things! With upto 2 special weapons, or 2 platforms, or one support platform per 6.


Really? Given that we have the option to take the Ghost Helm I'm not really sure this is too much of a concern."Option"? I thought it was standard equipment. Did I accidentally cheat yesterday?


-------------------

Anyway, I like the idea of there being two Farseer options, for relatively new guy and ancient. However, rather than one being an upgrade of the other, they are about the same price. The ancient has PML3 instead of 2, but lower I and WS due to his partial crystalisation - maybe increase Toughness too, but then the non-ancient guy would need some sort of buff. Oh, the Ancient Farseer wouldn't be Fleet.

Witchblades would be completely re-written, and would go back to being Force Weapons+ (although the base FW rules would also be re-written to allow this. My preference would be that normal FW would cease to be Power Weapons rather than WB gaining it, but perhaps they would be Rending instead. Singing spear would be as revised Witchblade but would roll 2D6 for AP.

WB would no longer wound on 2+ in general, but all FW would let you add your PML to your Strength against Daemons (maybe capped at +2 to prevent the ancient farseer being better with his sword than the younger model).

Both Farseers and Autarchs would allow the Autarch's current reserves buff (farseers are the precog ones, after all).

Warlocks would have the current always on powers, but would have the option of buying an active power as well. There active powers would be more overtly destructive than a Farseers, although they would have buffing options too (a theme should be a theme, not a straitjacket). They would cast Brotherhood of Psykers style. There would also be a Warlock Lord HQ choice would would choose from the same active powers, but would cast on his own, and have the option to take PML2 and more than one active powers. There would be some overlap between Warlock and Farseer powers, but not too much.


jt.

RandomThoughts
10-10-2011, 12:48
2) Balance Issues. With the more powerful buffs available, it becomes an utter pain in the **** to cost things effectively. [...] This situation is one of the real problems with the current dex, and I'm not seeing an easy solution... I mean, perhaps immunity to perils (but still with the option to fail the psychic test) combined with eternal warrior (fluffy due to becoming crystaline?) to minimise the farseer's vulnerabilities, meaning that a large points increase wouldn't be too hard to stomach... If anyone else has any suggestions, do tell.

I don't think that issue is Eldar specific. Just look at Blood Angel Sanguinary Priests (Feel no Pain bubbles), Space Marine Chaplains (rerollable hits during charge, which benefit a more powerful unit a lot more, just like Guide will benefit specific units more than others), certain Space Marine ICs with army wide boosts (fleet / improved hammers/flamers/meltas), ICs with stealth attached to different units, and so on.

I'd add that unlike most of these, Eldar Psychic powers only ever affect a single unit, so they are a lot less force multipliers than force additions, which should be a little simpler to balance.

Finally, as someone who doesn't like to run Farseers in every army, I outright refuse the idea that all units are priced with Farseers in mind. Regarding the Farseer pricing, I don't really think it couldn't be done if GW really wanted it done.


In regards to other suggestions, 18" shuri-cats are still not going to be enough. Rapid fire will carve through guardians regardless. However, 24" does seem a bit much (just because GK can have henchmen with stormbolters for less doesn't mean this would be balanced, merely that guardians would be just as undercosted [similar situation with tactical squads and grey hunters])
4+ armour and 18" assault 2 for 9-10 points in squads of 5-10, with option for heavy weapon platforms for every 5 models, or support platform for every 10 sounds reasonable.
Avengers then 24" with 4+, CCW and Pistol and grenades for 12-13 points. (or 14 with rending) This means that the Guardians still have the 'sit back and camp with a heavy weapon role' whilst the Avengers are solid all rounders.

I don't think 4+ armor 24" Shuricat 8-10 point Guardians are unrealistic. Regarding the Avenger Catapult, I got one simple question: Between a dedicated support fire unit (the Defenders) and a dedicated frontline unit (Avengers), which one do you think really should have the higher range?

Remember, back in 2nd edition both units had standard 24" Cats. In 3rd, both were nerfed to idiotic 12", which apparently didn't work so well, which the last Codex pretty much admitted by upping the range of some Cats (Avengers).

Now, what I see as reasonable would be 24" Catapults across the board, with the option for Avengers to actually drop the range for some additional boost (remember, frontline unit!), my personal favorite would be +1A for every 6" range reduction - let's call it "Bladestorm", a torrent of shrapnel fire cutting through anyything getting too close.


With Autarchs [...] Either of these would enable aspects (or indeed, wraithguard) to take and hold objectives. This could be scorpions infiltrating onto one, reapers providing a steady centre for a firebase on top of one or one of the FA aspects leaping on top of one in the last few stages of the game (as opposed to say the current 3 man jetbike). In other words, a measure of diversity and different playing styles, such as combat armies being able to take and hold without having to rely on a DAVU falcon or the aforementioned 3 jetbikes.

My thoughts, take as you will.

Fair enough. Personally, I'd rather they dropped the whole concept of scoring units by FOC in the next edition and simply made infantry scoring. (Not going to happen, since GW apparently thinks that players should be encouraged to spam troops (fluffy play) but fail to see that this will only happen if troops were changed into competitive units)
Regarding the Autarch, I'd love to see a list of 10 to 20 "strategems" (similar to Exarch powers) that provide army wide boosts. Bonus to reserve rolls could be one, improved steal initiative could be another, I could easily come up with more.


Dark Eldar should not necessarily be faster (their vehicles should still only move as fast as a standard Eldar equivalent) but they should make heavier use of fast vehicles (which they currently already do with the heavy use of Raiders, Venoms, etc.) and more use of the webway since that is where they live.

Eldar definitely need to have better armour and smaller numbers. I also feel that their technology should come across as slightly superior to Dark Eldar, but in a more ancient way. The Tau's technology would be similar in ablity, but newer and less perfected. Sort of like comparion Imperial Plasma weapons (Gets hot!) to Eldar Plasma weapons...

It has been mentioned that Dark Eldar have no, or limited access to materials like Wraithbone so are not able to manufacturer weapons and vehicles and stuff in the same manner as before The Fall. This means they have to resort to other materials for building things. They are still just as intelligent as the Craftworld dwellers, but their technology is not made the same and is modified anyway due to their obsession with pain...

Every Eldar should be superior to a human in practically every way. Their bodies should be faster, stronger and more agile, and their minds far more attuned. What makes Eldar fragile should not be reflected by their stats, or armour or technology, it should only be because they are limited in numbers and nearing extinction as a race. Their technology should make up for their physical shortcomings as their dwindling numbers means that they have a greater desire to preserve their lives...

I second that.

TheLaughingGod
10-10-2011, 20:38
Loving these ideas! I also found my power cards finally. Destructor used to be str 6 no saves allowed!! And it traveled on the table!

I'd like to see a return to 2nd Ed farseers and warlocks. Battle-fate was cool. SoD how would you stat that power in 5th?

Spell_of_Destruction
10-10-2011, 23:34
IIRC Battle Fate was kind of like Fortune and Guide (current versions) rolled into one? I think it makes sense to keep the two elements separate from a balance perspective (you may only have need for one or the other). The 2nd ed version of Guide doesn't really fit anymore - it was pretty cool in 2nd ed when battles were on a smaller scale (it also worked wonders with D-Cannons which were hideously powerful but highly inaccurate). The old Fortune was designed for a game with save modifiers so it made sense in the context of 3rd ed onwards to change it to re-rolls on saves.

The one thing we are missing is a power which grants re-rolls in assault. Given how the powers work on a conceptual level (the Farseer uses his powers of precognition to 'guide' the Eldar to victory) I don't think it makes sense that we have a shooting version but not an assault version. This was probably omitted due to balance concerns - re-rolls to hit in assault + Doom becomes pretty terrifying as it allows even Scorpions to own MEQs and the concern then would be marginalising Banshees (because Scorpions are much better all rounders). Then again, I'm perhaps making the mistake of 'assuming' the psychic power buffs in the effectiveness of the base unit (when in reality a Farseer with two powers is close to a 150pt investment). However, as the current edition shows, when something is good it tends to get spammed.

Other brainstorming ideas for Battle Fate:-

-Allows D3 re-rolls per turn (similar to the Heavens spell 'Second Sign' in 6th ed WHFB)
-Makes squads armour saves invulnerable (the thing I like about this is that it ties in with Asurmen's unique warrior power - the thing I really don't like about it is that on a conceptual level it is difficult to justify why it operates differently from Fortune. One idea I had is to change Fortune to function in this manner - it would still provide re-rolls to units which already have invulnerable saves).

Drakeus
11-10-2011, 00:33
SoD, Quoted for Truth.

Vaul's Unmaking - like power for Farseer would be cool; destroying certain wargear to prevent the wielder from using it...cheesy.

Shamana
11-10-2011, 01:40
The one thing we are missing is a power which grants re-rolls in assault. Given how the powers work on a conceptual level (the Farseer uses his powers of precognition to 'guide' the Eldar to victory) I don't think it makes sense that we have a shooting version but not an assault version. This was probably omitted due to balance concerns - re-rolls to hit in assault + Doom becomes pretty terrifying as it allows even Scorpions to own MEQs and the concern then would be marginalising Banshees (because Scorpions are much better all rounders).

That reminds me of something - while the farseer, as a psyker, is the "king" of eldar support HQs, perhaps there should be options for the other ones to improve in that regard. There doesn't need to be a farseer power for every possible option, just like how a lot of other races have non-psyker combo options or buffs - archons with PGL and incubi, blood angel chaplains or priests, IG commanders with their orders, and so on. For example, avatars could give greater bonuses to aspects (you know - aspect cultists of Khaine) than to anyone else, and either reroll on misses or FC sounds like a good start. Likewise, perhaps various aspects or autarchs could have access to similar skills - i.e. banshee exarchs could have a hatred-like rule to focus on their death-dealing skills, or scorpions could have ambush-related goodness that buffs them against pinned or already engaged enemies.

Farseers should be good in support, but they need not be the be-all, end-all of linking units together. Considering the eldar "specialized" roles, a seer should not be necessary to set up combo attacks. And when the other HQ non-special options are a prodigy who's travelled all the aspect paths to better understand and command them, and the God of War from whom all aspects styles claim descent, they certainly have a claim to have more goodies to them.

Inquisitor Kallus
11-10-2011, 01:51
Agreed, the Eldar shouldnt be reliant on their HQs to effectively beat their enemy, more sogaining benefits from them to be more efficient or focussed.

Spell_of_Destruction
11-10-2011, 04:31
@Sildani - I think that this phenomenom you are referring to has partially arisen out of the dilution of psychic powers from 2nd ed to 3rd ed. The difficulty has been differentiating psychic powers from both regular ranged weapons and non psychic unit buffs when functionally there is little difference. I would actually like to see a return of the psychic phase but I can accept that it is very unlikely that this will ever happen.

With that in mind, I would prefer to see the Autarch's focus remain 'strategic' and the Farseer's role remain 'tactical'. If the Autarch's fluff remains the same his special rules should be expanded to provide other benefits in relation to deployment, reserves etc. The Farseer is the HQ you use to boost the strength of your army where and when you need it. I'll add to that that I would like to see the range of Fortune and Guide increased even if only marginally. Particularly with a Fortune-seer, I sometimes find that he feels a bit like a very expensive squad upgrade because the limited range on the power prevents him from conferring it upon squads other than the one he is attached to.

Inquisitor Kallus
11-10-2011, 04:51
Hmm, a psychic phase could bring a bit more emphasis back. It would also help make psykers feel more important, however it shouldnt be as dominating as it is in WFB.

I hope 6th ed also brings some strategy back to the game as opposed to spamming stuff. I think most Eldar players appreciate good tactics, and have to use them with tactics to perform well. I also hope this edition gives us back a benefit in being a fast (on the whole) army and that some strategic maneouvering will give us benefits like setting up crossfires etc.

Spell_of_Destruction
11-10-2011, 05:01
The main problem with a psychic phase is that it would probably require a full revision of the current rules and existing codeces in order to balance it properly. I guess that they could introduce a full psychic phase with an expansion like Spearhead or Storm of Magic for Fantasy but the difficulty is that we've had ten years of introducing armies with no psykers at all - where would it leave Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar? Back in 2nd ed there were only really 6 factions and they all had psykers.

_______________________________

Hendarion
11-10-2011, 06:16
When 3rd edition killed psychic phase, I've been very sad, psychic powers had basically been nerfed to not exist. Currently I think the powers are fair (not all Eldar powers though... S3 large blast? For what exactly?) and also more or less well integrated into the normal game-flow. Actually the way 40k does them makes them much more flexible in possible effects.

Spell_of_Destruction
11-10-2011, 06:31
I think that more recently they have been moving in the right direction (if you look back to some of the SM and CSM powers from the early 3rd ed codeces they were really quite underwhelming). Psychic powers should add something fun and unique to the game and have characteristics not associated with conventional weapons.

As for Eldritch Storm, I'd like to see it become a 'remains in play' style power which moves around the battlefield, blocks line of sight and throws around enemy infantry and vehicles (imagine enemy troops being crushed by their own tanks!). That would be some great old school style fun. They could even make a special template for it. It would basically act the way a tornado of psychic energy should.

Hendarion
11-10-2011, 06:39
The problem with "stays in plan and moves randomly" is that it may also affect your own army negatively.

Spell_of_Destruction
11-10-2011, 06:44
Easy fix - as soon as it touches an Eldar model the power is cancelled. I think it's fair to assume that a Farseer would have this level of mastery over the power and would be able to end it before it harms any Eldar troops.

Hendarion
11-10-2011, 07:33
No offense, but I think the efford needed to handle the power doesn't fit into 40k any longer. Too many things to do with that thing. It would fit Apoc or 2nd Edition pretty well though ;)

TheLaughingGod
11-10-2011, 07:38
No offense, but I think the efford needed to handle the power doesn't fit into 40k any longer. Too many things to do with that thing. It would fit Apoc or 2nd Edition pretty well though ;)

you may not, but Phil Kelly seems to think so. I mean, just look at stormcaller!

Hendarion
11-10-2011, 08:01
True, but imo that was not one of his most glorious moments.

Spell_of_Destruction
11-10-2011, 08:04
Well I'll come up with some experimental rules and you can tell me what you think.

I do think that we're seeing things move away from the plain abstraction of 3rd edition.

fidesratioque
11-10-2011, 08:30
SoD if you read Dan Abnett in one of the Ghosts novels an eldar farseer casts a psychic storm that does exactly what you describe, it's very awesome. From Lexicanum:

"During the ground assault of the Chaos forces on Monthax, a devastating psychic storm was summoned by the Eldar Farseer Eon Kull, the guardian of an ancient warp gate that led back to Craftworld Dolthe itself, in an effort to prevent Chaos from reaching it. However, the strain was too much for the Farseer and the storm raged out of control. Lilith was sent to investigate, and she discovered the net of deceit woven by the Farseer: an illusion to draw Imperial forces to the beleaguered Eldar's aid."

Ninja1761
11-10-2011, 10:39
i'd just like to add my two cents here

a while back i made an eldar fandex (i posted it in a thread, it's in my signature)

i realize that most of it is both poorly thought out and poorly costed, but i think that some of the ideas in it are fairly good (well my general thoughts)

cheers
Ninja1761

ShurikenSerpent
11-10-2011, 13:05
Buff to Avatar - +1 S,T,W,A. Gives preferred enemy to friendly units within 12"

Increase Shuriken Catapult range to 24" for Dire Avengers, 18" for Guardians. 2x support weapon platform or 4Xassault weapon for Guardian squads.

War Walkers/Vypers available as troops when taken to support guardian squads/jetbike squads

Vyper becomes 2-wound attack bike equivalent - T5, 3+ save, taken in squads of it's own AND/OR as upgrades to a guardian jetbike squad.

Eldar tanks increase to BS4.

Starcannon regains Heavy 3, but dropped to 18" range

Relentless for Dark Reapers OR completely replace reaper launcher with EML's.

Shining Spears 2 attacks basic OR Laser Lance/shuriken pistol as 2 CCW's.

Phoenix & Scorpion choices in fast attack/heavy support.

MASSIVE overhaul of psychics to make Eldar once again the top-tier Psyker race in 40K. Maintain focus on buffs/enhancements rather than damage however.

Seers Mastery level 2, 3 with spirit stones
Warlocks Mastery level 1
Reduce costs of all psychic powers to 5 points each. Increase effective range on powers to average 24".

Panther Al
11-10-2011, 22:53
I like the idea of making the Vyper a 2 wound attack bike type unit. It makes for a good differentiation between it and the Hornet which I really want to see made tourney legal.

But here is something I would love to see:

Plastic multi pose Wraithguard, and the ability to take the Wraithseer as a mandatory HQ choice, again tourney legal at that. I would so do a second eldar army based around the wraith theme - my own theme instead of Iyanden one since I am still yellowed out from my 3E foray into Imp Fists back in the day.

Spell_of_Destruction
11-10-2011, 23:27
Experimental Eldritch Storm rules as promised:-

_________________________________________

During the shooting phase, place the large 5" diameter Eldritch Storm template anywhere within 24" of the Farseer. Any non-vehicle models touched by the template suffer a S3 hit if in the open and a S4 hit if within 2" of any terrain feature. Armour saves may be taken as normal but cover saves are ignored. After wounds are resolved, models underneath the template are thrown to its edge in a random direction determined by the scatter die.

Any non-skimmer vehicles over which the centre of the template passes are flung D6+2" in a random direction and suffer a hit resolved at the Strength of the distance travelled +2D6 for armour penetration. Resolve armour penetration after the vehicle lands. The vehicle will also be spun to face a random direction determined by the scatter die. Any skimmers touched by the template must take a dangerous terrain test but are otherwise unaffected and are moved in a random direction to the edge of the template. Any models underneath the vehicle when it lands must roll equal or under their Initiative or suffer a S10 hit with no armour saves allowed. Models which pass their Initiative test are placed at the nearest point within 1" of the vehicle which allows them to maintain squad coherency.

At the end of any shooting phase in which the Storm is in play and once all wounds and armour penetration rolls have been resolved, the Eldar player may choose to either end the storm or roll a die to try and keep the Storm in play. The Storm will remain in play on a roll of 4+. While in play the Storm counts as impassable terrain and completely blocks LoS - no shots may be fired through it.

At the start of the Eldar player's next shooting phase the Farseer may either end the Storm and create a new Storm or he may move the existing Storm 2D6" in a direction of the Eldar's player's choosing. Resolve hits against any models over which the template passes as described above. Any non vehicle models are carried with the template to its end location and then placed at the edge of the template as described above. Any vehicles affected are moved from their existing location as described above. Any models which are moved out of squad coherency must use their full movement to regain squad coherency in the owning player's movement phase or may be removed as a casualty at the option of the owning player.

The Storm ends automatically if the Farseer is killed or otherwise removed from play.

_________________________________________

I am quite happy with these rules but I see two main problems - 1) too complicated (maybe complicated isn't the right word, but it certainly requires more space to explain than any existing psychic power) and 2) squad coherency issues are a bit fishy - I have tried to address this in the second last paragraph but others may see issues that I have missed.

Inquisitor Kallus
12-10-2011, 01:00
Starcannon regains Heavy 3, but dropped to 18" range



Why drop the range? It is a cannon not a shorter ranged gun. In todays game a Heavy 3 starcannon isnt that game breaking. It just needs to be reflected in its points.

Spell_of_Destruction
12-10-2011, 01:20
I agree. Maybe in 6th ed low AP weapons such as the starcannon will be more formidable in which case I'd be willing to accept 24" as a compromise for getting back Heavy 3 but any less than that and it kind of ceases to be a Heavy Weapon.

Threeshades
12-10-2011, 01:27
Why drop the range? It is a cannon not a shorter ranged gun. In todays game a Heavy 3 starcannon isnt that game breaking. It just needs to be reflected in its points.

I think we can say it is already reflected in its points. Look at what you pay for those things on any model. Compare a plasma cannon in any given space marine dex. Those are a lot cheaper while being only slightly less effective, if at all. (sure they can only get off as many hits as there are target models, but that can mean it hits 5 or more, it has higher St and comes at the disadvantage of overheating, which rarely actually causes a wound)

Inquisitor Kallus
12-10-2011, 01:27
An Imperial Plasma Cannon can hit 3-4 targets if lucky especially with no partials. I dont see any reason why its range should be reduced when it has a point less strength than the Imperial version.

Shamana
12-10-2011, 02:01
I think we can say it is already reflected in its points.

Amen. It's already costing 25 points on BS 3 models, for crying out loud, it doesn't need a nerf to balance it becoming a Heavy 3 weapon again. And for BS 4 models, the extra cost can simply be calculated in the price of the model.

What's with the love for eldar vehicle weapons being so short-ranged, anyway? Just because you are fast doesn't mean you should be ramming the other craft in order to shoot it.

TheLaughingGod
12-10-2011, 02:50
Amen. It's already costing 25 points on BS 3 models, for crying out loud, it doesn't need a nerf to balance it becoming a Heavy 3 weapon again. And for BS 4 models, the extra cost can simply be calculated in the price of the model.

What's with the love for eldar vehicle weapons being so short-ranged, anyway? Just because you are fast doesn't mean you should be ramming the other craft in order to shoot it.

something about only Eldar needing to have unfluffy artificial "weaknesses"
Every other faction is allowed to have everything plus the kitchen sink.

Panther Al
12-10-2011, 03:07
something about only Eldar needing to have unfluffy artificial "weaknesses"
Every other faction is allowed to have everything plus the kitchen sink.

Very very true that.

If GW was to take a long look at Eldar and think about all the fluffy things they have said about them, and said:

"Well... they are gonna have guns that outrange about anyone elses... and they will shoot pretty hard too boot. The Psykers are just going to be scary. And, I think all the vehicles will be quite fast, reasonably armoured, and be given those holofields to make them tough to actually hit as the fluff says they are supposed to be. And we are going to make them point wise, about the most expensive tanks - and army - in the game..."

I'd be OK with that. Eldar shouldn't be numerous. They should be scarce, relatively fragile (I'm perfectly fine with T3), and very very nasty in a fight. Yes, they will smear away, but you only have to kill three models and poof, half the army is gone if they do it right.

Craftworld
12-10-2011, 03:10
you may not, but Phil Kelly seems to think so. I mean, just look at stormcaller!

The question is; are you willing to pay the price of a land raider for such a power?

I see a lot of people suggesting significant powers and buffs, without being willing to pay for it.


Amen. It's already costing 25 points on BS 3 models, for crying out loud, it doesn't need a nerf to balance it becoming a Heavy 3 weapon again. And for BS 4 models, the extra cost can simply be calculated in the price of the model.

What's with the love for eldar vehicle weapons being so short-ranged, anyway? Just because you are fast doesn't mean you should be ramming the other craft in order to shoot it.

I agree. If psyflemen dreads are balanced, I can't see how a heavy 3 AT would break the game.


something about only Eldar needing to have unfluffy artificial "weaknesses"
Every other faction is allowed to have everything plus the kitchen sink.

Really? The Eldar have never been the underdogs in this game, nor been uncompetitive. It's only recently we're starting to show our codices age. I don't think we have much room to lament about a broken game, or faction favoritism, considering we've been in the position of "abuser" more often than not.

How easily we forget.

Panther Al
12-10-2011, 03:16
The question is; are you willing to pay the price of a land raider for such a power?

I see a lot of people suggesting significant powers and buffs, without being willing to pay for it.

*various snippage*

Really? The Eldar have never been the underdogs in this game, nor been uncompetitive. It's only recently we're starting to show our codices age. I don't think we have much room to lament about a broken game, or faction favoritism, considering we've been in the position of "abuser" more often than not.

How easily we forget.


I would be more than happy to pay 250, 275 points for a Falcon that is as nasty as it *should* be. Quite honestly, since I have the habit of tossing in the full upgrade on vehicles as is, I'm almost there to begin with.

And as to the accusations of cheese and Eldar, well... fair cop there. Eldar has been accused of that a time or three, which usually results in a massive swing to the other direction, which results in a swing to the... well, you get the point.

Spell_of_Destruction
12-10-2011, 03:28
The question is; are you willing to pay the price of a land raider for such a power?

I see a lot of people suggesting significant powers and buffs, without being willing to pay for it.

Well, it is a Wishlist thread meaning that the suggestions will be everything from rabid fanboyism to - "how about this for a cool idea - we can worry about points balance later".

Case in point with my experimental rules for Eldritch Storm above. I haven't playtested this so have little idea outside of my mental abstractions as to how it would impact the game and how much it ought to cost. I didn't just want to ramp up the damage levels but tried to come up with a concept with multiple tactical uses - yes it is a more damaging power but it could also be used to screen your own units or to block an objective.

Craftworld
12-10-2011, 03:58
Well, it is a Wishlist thread meaning that the suggestions will be everything from rabid fanboyism to - "how about this for a cool idea - we can worry about points balance later".

Case in point with my experimental rules for Eldritch Storm above. I haven't playtested this so have little idea outside of my mental abstractions as to how it would impact the game and how much it ought to cost. I didn't just want to ramp up the damage levels but tried to come up with a concept with multiple tactical uses - yes it is a more damaging power but it could also be used to screen your own units or to block an objective.

I understand that, I do. However, LG used Njal as an example of a psychic power that he wants to see, yet it's a power limited to a SC that costs as much as a land raider.

Just curious how bad he wants it.

TheLaughingGod
12-10-2011, 05:20
I understand that, I do. However, LG used Njal as an example of a psychic power that he wants to see, yet it's a power limited to a SC that costs as much as a land raider.

Just curious how bad he wants it.

you're forgetting that you're also paying for Njall who is pretty impressive himself, and armed with even more psychic powers.

I dont think your point comparison is fair.

We dont mind paying for good abilities, but right now we over pay for poor to half-decent rules.

Also, regarding how quickly you forget, 4th edition was when we flew around and never took damage and launched Harlequins at everyone.
that's effective but not fluffy and not powerful either. Our advantage lay paradoxically in that you couldn't make damage stick on Falcons.

Third edition was okay until Craftworld list happened. That was a bit broken.

RandomThoughts
12-10-2011, 09:22
Very very true that.

If GW was to take a long look at Eldar and think about all the fluffy things they have said about them, and said:

"Well... they are gonna have guns that outrange about anyone elses... and they will shoot pretty hard too boot. The Psykers are just going to be scary. And, I think all the vehicles will be quite fast, reasonably armoured, and be given those holofields to make them tough to actually hit as the fluff says they are supposed to be. And we are going to make them point wise, about the most expensive tanks - and army - in the game..."

I'd be OK with that. Eldar shouldn't be numerous. They should be scarce, relatively fragile (I'm perfectly fine with T3), and very very nasty in a fight. Yes, they will smear away, but you only have to kill three models and poof, half the army is gone if they do it right.

I second that, third it and forth it.


The question is; are you willing to pay the price of a land raider for such a power?

Absolutely. I want an elite army with all the superior tech promised by the codex and the small army size to balance it off.


I see a lot of people suggesting significant powers and buffs, without being willing to pay for it.

Which might have more to do with the fact that our units are currently underpowered and need buffing to get on par?


Really? The Eldar have never been the underdogs in this game, nor been uncompetitive. It's only recently we're starting to show our codices age. I don't think we have much room to lament about a broken game, or faction favoritism, considering we've been in the position of "abuser" more often than not.

How easily we forget.

Well, for one thing, not all of us have been playing for 15+ years. I actually did, kind of, with long pauses, but I just started Eldar about 2 years ago, so ... yeah.

Also, I don't care about playing "that powerbuild" - even if I had played in forth, I wouldn't have played Harlequin Falcons - what's the point of having 20 different units in the Codex if only 2 or 3 of them are useful at any given time???

ShurikenSerpent
12-10-2011, 10:24
Why drop the range? It is a cannon not a shorter ranged gun. In todays game a Heavy 3 starcannon isnt that game breaking. It just needs to be reflected in its points.

To differentiate it in roles form the same-strength, currently same-range Scatter Laser. Otherwise everyone would simply take starcannons and ignore scatter lasers and shuriken cannons (points permitting).

Ideally it would be used aggressively alongside units intending to get up close and personal - assault Wraithlords, outflanking war walkers, Fire Dragon/Banshee Wave Serpents etc, rather than a heavy weapon designed for sitting back and shooting with (which the Eldar already have quite a few of).

While on the subject of vehicles, I'd like to see the Falcon's weapon mounts changed from Pulse Laser and choice of heavy weapon to choice of support weapon and choice of heavy weapon. Also, make the Pulse Laser a support weapon platform choice. A battery of three pulse lasers, or a D-Cannon toting Falcon? Yes please!

Hand flamers and powerfist options for Harlequins, and a 4+ invunerable save for Troupe Masters, Shadowseers and Deathjesters.

Drastically reduce the cost to twin-linked Wraithlord heavy weapons, OR simply allow them to duplicate choices rather than twin-link. Or both!

Scrap "Defender and Storm" Guardians, and give Guardians all the options in one unit entry. Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken pistols and CCW plus plasma grenades as standard. They may be militia, but they should be the best-equipped militia in the 40K universe. Again with up to 2 weapon platforms AND up to 2 support weapons per squad. Make them the only real multi-role unit in the Eldar army!

Threeshades
12-10-2011, 10:32
I'm glad that so many people think eldar deserve to be an elite army. That's always been how I felt.
While lists these days can end up pretty small sometimes, I don't think their firepower represents it properly though.
I mean if we are going to have 200+ points tanks we should have the firepower on them to get us some of it back.

On top of that eldar are the most advanced race in the game, and still their weapons are bested by most of their imperial peers (shuriken catapult/bolter, brightlance/lascannon, shuriken cannon/heavy bolter, starcannon/plasma cannon, d-cannon and fire prism vs really any comparable ordinance weapon, also fire prism vs regular lascannon, if you compare the sizes of the two!), both for fluff reasons and for reasons of eldar becoming more powerful but less numerous these weapons need a buff.

Inquisitor Kallus
12-10-2011, 16:27
To differentiate it in roles form the same-strength, currently same-range Scatter Laser. Otherwise everyone would simply take starcannons and ignore scatter lasers and shuriken cannons (points permitting).

Ideally it would be used aggressively alongside units intending to get up close and personal - assault Wraithlords, outflanking war walkers, Fire Dragon/Banshee Wave Serpents etc, rather than a heavy weapon designed for sitting back and shooting with (which the Eldar already have quite a few of).

While on the subject of vehicles, I'd like to see the Falcon's weapon mounts changed from Pulse Laser and choice of heavy weapon to choice of support weapon and choice of heavy weapon. Also, make the Pulse Laser a support weapon platform choice. A battery of three pulse lasers, or a D-Cannon toting Falcon? Yes please!

Hand flamers and powerfist options for Harlequins, and a 4+ invunerable save for Troupe Masters, Shadowseers and Deathjesters.

Drastically reduce the cost to twin-linked Wraithlord heavy weapons, OR simply allow them to duplicate choices rather than twin-link. Or both!

Scrap "Defender and Storm" Guardians, and give Guardians all the options in one unit entry. Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken pistols and CCW plus plasma grenades as standard. They may be militia, but they should be the best-equipped militia in the 40K universe. Again with up to 2 weapon platforms AND up to 2 support weapons per squad. Make them the only real multi-role unit in the Eldar army!

That is only if the Scatter laser isn't changed. We could potentially see it go up to 6 shots, who knows. Reducing the Starcannons range just doesnt sit right. Heavy weapons by their definition are larger more powerful versions that have a greater range. All they need to do is re-jig a few things in regards to heavy weapons so that other choices are also worth taking. Even the Imperial (non-heavy) plasma gun has a range of 24"...

Shamana
12-10-2011, 20:02
To differentiate it in roles form the same-strength, currently same-range Scatter Laser. Otherwise everyone would simply take starcannons and ignore scatter lasers and shuriken cannons (points permitting).

Scatter lasers are cheaper and make more shots. Unless you want to crack 2+ or 3+ armor, there is little reason to take starcannons instead. Plus, it remains to be seen if the scatter laser is kept the same. Frankly, I'd prefer if the starcannon simply costed 20 points and was either S6 heavy 3 (or, if that's so freaking impossible, S7 heavy 2)

Mind you, the brightlance needs a buff too just as much as the starcannon. I'd say keep the current strength and range, make it AP 1, and drop the cost to 25-ish points so it's at least roughly equivalent to the lascannon - better against AV 14, worse against AV 10-12, slightly lower range, but with the AP1 bonus to damage results. This will also allow it to compete better with the costlier (but 2-shot) pulse laser. Dark eldar lances cost 25 points, but that's compensated by cheaper BS 4 vehicles - eldar ones may either be more expensive or need to pay a separate upgrade to become BS 4 (5-10 points). Then again, the AP 1 may well be worth 5 more points - if, again, more eldar vehicles can be BS 4.


Hand flamers and powerfist options for Harlequins, and a 4+ invunerable save for Troupe Masters, Shadowseers and Deathjesters.

Not keen on power fists on harlequins. One of the harleys' greatest strengths is their high initiative - they go first against pretty much everything. Powerfists negate that, and mean that harlequins will take quite a few losses due to their piddly 5++ save before they get to swing. Power weapons and cheaper and/or improved kisses are much more their thing. Then again, they DID have something like a "power glove" but I'd much rather it struck at initiative (and costed a LOT) than make it a regular power fist. Hand flamers... eh, maybe, though I've never heard of it before. On the other hand, if there's one unit that should have hallucinogenic grenades in the game, it's the psycho circus. Why not focus more on their mindscrew powers instead?

One thing I'd definitely like to see on harlequins - anti-chaos/daemon powers or wargear. These are supposedly the sect most dedicated to fighting chaos, yet they have nothing to that effect in the rules. Something like an upgrade that gives them hatred against daemons or something that forces enemies to reroll successful invulnerable saves wouldn't be too bad.


Drastically reduce the cost to twin-linked Wraithlord heavy weapons, OR simply allow them to duplicate choices rather than twin-link. Or both!

Eh, both? Wraithlord big guns are already kinda overpriced to begin with (how much does a nerfed lascannon cost again?), and twin-linking them by paying twice the amount was complete BS to begin with. I'd say make them cost as much as for other platforms, and have the cost of the Wraithlord itself cover the BS 4.


Scrap "Defender and Storm" Guardians, and give Guardians all the options in one unit entry. Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken pistols and CCW plus plasma grenades as standard. They may be militia, but they should be the best-equipped militia in the 40K universe. Again with up to 2 weapon platforms AND up to 2 support weapons per squad. Make them the only real multi-role unit in the Eldar army!

I mostly agree, with some minor modifications. The one thing that I do have an issue with is whether guardians need the "bolter, pistol, CCW" setup of the grey hunters or horny marines; I think being able to choose between pistol+CCW (with free plasma grenades), 18-inch shuriken catapults and 3-shot lasblasters (those two can pay for plasma and/or defensive grenades) would be a good enough start. For me the sweet spot is 8-12 models, with either 1 special weapon or 1 support weapon team (gun + 2 extra guardians) for every 4.That way you can have 12 guardians with either 3 special weapons or 2 platforms, or 18 guardians with 3 platforms. 18 guardians does seem like a lot, but Chaos Space Marines can have warbands of 20 - and they aren't all that common either :) .

The Red Pilgrim
12-10-2011, 22:03
I mentioned this earlier in the thread - it's covered in the 2nd ed Dark Millenium supplement. If you're not familiar with this, it was the separate 2nd ed supplement which provided the rules for all the psychic powers in the game.

I don't have my copy to hand but essentially the supplement explains that it is too dangerous for Eldar seers to tap directly into the warp for psychic energy hence the use of runes and seer stones. In game terms this translated into a lot of easy to cast 'buff' powers.

I definitely support this. In A Thousand Sons, Ahriman explains to his human pupil that the most difficult psychic mastery is reading the future, and making sense of all of the possible streams of fate. Saying it takes an incredibly powerful mind, and intense discipline. Something that every Farseer seems to be capable of, with varying degrees of success. That speaks to me of incredible skill.

Unfortunately, too many players associate being a "master" of something with sheer killing power alone, and ignore other aspects. Things like safer psychic tests, better ability to counter enemy psykers, manipulation of the battlefield, etc. Unleashing loads of devastating psychic might is seen as "reckless" and "dangerous"; something the young races are fond of. Doesn't sound very much like the Eldar to me, with their extensive knowledge of the warp.

Now, that isn't to say their current offensive powers shouldn't be tweaked a bit, to become more competitive. I just don't think they should focus on destruction. Farseers are more subtle than that.

Besides, sorcery is superior anyways. Silly psykers. ;)

Inquisitor Kallus
12-10-2011, 22:15
I definitely support this. In A Thousand Sons, Ahriman explains to his human pupil that the most difficult psychic mastery is reading the future, and making sense of all of the possible streams of fate. Saying it takes an incredibly powerful mind, and intense discipline. Something that every Farseer seems to be capable of, with varying degrees of success. That speaks to me of incredible skill.

Unfortunately, too many players associate being a "master" of something with sheer killing power alone, and ignore other aspects. Things like safer psychic tests, better ability to counter enemy psykers, manipulation of the battlefield, etc. Unleashing loads of devastating psychic might is seen as "reckless" and "dangerous"; something the young races are fond of. Doesn't sound very much like the Eldar to me, with their extensive knowledge of the warp.

Now, that isn't to say their current offensive powers shouldn't be tweaked a bit, to become more competitive. I just don't think they should focus on destruction. Farseers are more subtle than that.



Totally agree, the Eldar have to be more subtle so as not to attract the attention of warp entities. It is good to see another player who agrees.

Charistoph
12-10-2011, 22:56
I mostly agree, with some minor modifications. The one thing that I do have an issue with is whether guardians need the "bolter, pistol, CCW" setup of the grey hunters or horny marines; I think being able to choose between pistol+CCW (with free plasma grenades), 18-inch shuriken catapults and 3-shot lasblasters (those two can pay for plasma and/or defensive grenades) would be a good enough start. For me the sweet spot is 8-12 models, with either 1 special weapon or 1 support weapon team (gun + 2 extra guardians) for every 4.That way you can have 12 guardians with either 3 special weapons or 2 platforms, or 18 guardians with 3 platforms. 18 guardians does seem like a lot, but Chaos Space Marines can have warbands of 20 - and they aren't all that common either :) .

I can't agree with this equipment set up at all. If they don't resplit Guardians, they should start with Pistol and CCW, swapping out one for a medium weapon (lasblaster, shuricat, etc). They start with Assault 'nades and when they swap out for the medium weapon, the A'nades get swapped for Defensive 'nades.

Though, they really should split the Storm Guardians off again.

Leave the 'Grey Hunter' kit for the Dire Avengers, it will help set them apart more.

TheLaughingGod
12-10-2011, 23:05
Totally agree, the Eldar have to be more subtle so as not to attract the attention of warp entities. It is good to see another player who agrees.

its weird how players tend to disagree with canon when it suits something they heard once on a forum...

Canonically, Eldar cause huge psychic storms, fling vehicles around with their minds, unleash waves of incinerating psychic flame and lightning. Its not that they can't do those things, its just they can do those "easy" tricks AND all the more difficult subtle stuff as well.

The Red Pilgrim
13-10-2011, 00:14
its weird how players tend to disagree with canon when it suits something they heard once on a forum...

It's even more curious how you're twisting his words, trying to make his statement false.

You're saying that the Eldar, a favored meal of one of the ruinous powers, have nothing to fear from drawing warp energy? That the Eldar would not be especially wary of overextending their power, given what they know of the warp. Is that about right?

Because if that's not your claim, then what he said was absolutely spot-on, regarding the established canon.


Canonically, Eldar cause huge psychic storms, fling vehicles around with their minds, unleash waves of incinerating psychic flame and lightning. Its not that they can't do those things, its just they can do those "easy" tricks AND all the more difficult subtle stuff as well.

What about this is not represented by the Eldar's current psychic abilities, exactly? They have psychic storms, waves of psychic flame, and the ability to initiate a battle of the minds, where they can snuff out of the lifeforce of an enemy without moving. They already have enough offensive powers for a race that is well educated about the dangers posed by taking more power than is your own.

And hell, if you want to argue canon for table-top balance, why are Chaos sorcerors and demons not the most devastating "casters" in the game? :eyebrows:

Inquisitor Kallus
13-10-2011, 00:38
Thankyou Laughing God I am quite well acquainted with the recent codex, and all the others including 2nd ed, Dark Millenium and the FFG books such as Lure of the Expanse and others. I own them all and yes, using stronger powers does bring more attention from the warp.

They are experts in divination and tracing the subtle skeins of fate as they are less obtrusive. Ironically none of the other younger races do this yet they have powerful psykers, whereas Eldar are the most powerful psykers. Power s not necessarily purely shown by big bangs and pyrotechnical displays. I would say one of the most powerful things Eldrad did was steer Ghazgkhull Mag Uruk Thraka away from the Craftworld and onto Armageddon. That is true power, without even having to strike a blow... .

I think, as The Red Pilgrim said, you are trying to put words into my mouth. I am not disagreeing with you that they use more 'physical' powers, merely saying that they tend to use more subtle ones in the background. The Eldar are scared of the warp and its inhabitants for good reason, you know why they wear Spirit Stones right. Their past use of over abusing their power led to the fall. Why do you think Farseers wear Ghosthelms..

TheLaughingGod
13-10-2011, 00:58
Thankyou Laughing God I am quite well acquainted with the recent codex, and all the others including 2nd ed, Dark Millenium and the FFG books such as Lure of the Expanse and others. I own them all and yes, using stronger powers does bring more attention from the warp.

They are experts in divination and tracing the subtle skeins of fate as they are less obtrusive. Ironically none of the other younger races do this yet they have powerful psykers, whereas Eldar are the most powerful psykers. Power s not necessarily purely shown by big bangs and pyrotechnical displays. I would say one of the most powerful things Eldrad did was steer Ghazgkhull Mag Uruk Thraka away from the Craftworld and onto Armageddon. That is true power, without even having to strike a blow... .

I think, as The Red Pilgrim said, you are trying to put words into my mouth. I am not disagreeing with you that they use more 'physical' powers, merely saying that they tend to use more subtle ones in the background. The Eldar are scared of the warp and its inhabitants for good reason, you know why they wear Spirit Stones right. Their past use of over abusing their power led to the fall. Why do you think Farseers wear Ghosthelms..

I'm not saying they dont risk predatory attention for drawing too deeply on the warp, the purpose of the runes is to allow them to access their power at minimal risk. This is why ghosthelms exist as well. However, if you're trying to say that other psykers by necessity must be more destructive, I and the background disagree with you. Other psykers dont have the protection Eldar psykers do. Keep in mind that Warlocks are amongst the greatest battle psykers in the galaxy by the fluff and they are known for being focused on destruction. So i would say your statements are misleading if not completely wrong.

Inquisitor Kallus
13-10-2011, 02:32
No, I am saying other psykers tend to utilize destructive spells/psychic powers more. I am not saying that other races have, or should have, more destuctive powers, but they tend to be more raw energies, uncontrolled with less concern behind them .

For example fortune, guide and doom are not inherently destructive powers, more so their application can lead to destruction of the enemy when used at the right time both directly and indirectly.

TheLaughingGod
13-10-2011, 02:41
No, other psykers utilize destructive spells more. I am not saying that other races have, or should have, more destuctive powers.

fair enough. Perhaps I misunderstood. I'm saying that if Libraran = Lightning Death

Farseer = Lightning Death + Scrying

Spell_of_Destruction
13-10-2011, 02:53
I think the point Inquisitor Kallus is making is that Farseers don't use 'in your face' destructive powers not because they can't but rather because doing so would needlessly risk attracting dangerous warp entities. They can achieve the same end result (death to the enemy, victory for the Eldar) by utilising their superior mastery of the subtle arts of predicting the future.

Warlocks are different because fluff wise they are psykers and warriors.

Shamana
13-10-2011, 07:19
I can't agree with this equipment set up at all. If they don't resplit Guardians, they should start with Pistol and CCW, swapping out one for a medium weapon (lasblaster, shuricat, etc). They start with Assault 'nades and when they swap out for the medium weapon, the A'nades get swapped for Defensive 'nades.

Though, they really should split the Storm Guardians off again..

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly: I don't really care for guardians having pistols, CCW, and a catapult/lasblaster. It is one of the proposals that I didn't like, and I think you don't either. I mean that pistol+CCW, catapult, or lasblaster should be the options for base weapons. Having plasma grenades as stock should be pretty much mandatory for pistol/ccw guardians (and might be justified as they have an inferior gun combination), although I could see it for any guardian unit, just like how all Imperial armies have them. Defensive or possibly even haywire grenades may be a purchaseable upgrade, just as I'd like to see carapace armor or the "black guardian" upgrade for elite non-aspect troops like the Wild Riders or the eponymous Black guardians, giving them +1 WS or BS and possibly +1 LD.

Apart from that, I'd rather decouple the support/special weapon choice from the guardians' main weapons. Why not have shuriken catapults and flamers, for example? Also, I'd like it if guardians - whose role as far as I can tell is to provide "light" fire support (heavy fire support = reapers) could have 3 special weapons or more than one support weapon when fielded in a large unit.

@ SoD: I think the question is simply how often farseers use combat powers, not why they don't use them. I think there have been instances where they have opted for a more direct approach. Yes, it might be riskier (or is it?), but I think it's been established that divination has its risks as well. Perhaps the reason is simply that divination is more effective - you can do it without ever setting foot on the battlefield, and cause much more damage with a precise strike than an all-out attack. However, 40k doesn't really support that aspect of wargaming :) .

TheLaughingGod
13-10-2011, 08:47
@ SoD: I think the question is simply how often farseers use combat powers, not why they don't use them. I think there have been instances where they have opted for a more direct approach. Yes, it might be riskier (or is it?), but I think it's been established that divination has its risks as well. Perhaps the reason is simply that divination is more effective - you can do it without ever setting foot on the battlefield, and cause much more damage with a precise strike than an all-out attack. However, 40k doesn't really support that aspect of wargaming :) .

I'm actually pretty happy with how Gav Thorpe has depicted their fate scrying in PotS. Basically, everything leading up to a battle can be fairly "simply" mapped and laid out, but once you get there, the options become vast. However, the ability to read the fates "on the fly" is actually amazing for them and theoretically (So long as the Eldar warriors carry out everything flawlessly) Should allow them to always win. Always.

Of course, there are complications and no plan is perfect, even if you can see the future, but that's basically what Doom/Guide/Fortune are meant to represent. It's actually well represented in the game as it is (Though, it could be expanded to be a tad more flexible with increased power ranges and an assault re-roll)

Son of Russ
13-10-2011, 09:48
I think the point Inquisitor Kallus is making is that Farseers don't use 'in your face' destructive powers not because they can't but rather because doing so would needlessly risk attracting dangerous warp entities.

Except Farseers can use aggressive powers. There is loads of evidence of this, especially if you read Path of the Seer. Thorpe is well known for his love of Eldar and he explains quite a lot in the Path books, fleshing out Eldar society beautifully. Farseers who have their War Mask CAN use destructive powers. They are shown casting Psychic lightning all over the place.

jt.glass
13-10-2011, 10:28
I like the idea of making the Vyper a 2 wound attack bike type unit. It makes for a good differentiation between it and the Hornet which I really want to see made tourney legal.Tournament legality is up to the TOs, not GW.


jt.

The Elder
14-10-2011, 22:12
Except when they get introduced into the Eldar Codex ;)

Cheers,
The Elder

Charistoph
15-10-2011, 01:07
Except when they get introduced into the Eldar Codex ;)

Cheers,
The Elder

Except for when TOs ban a unit...

Shamana
15-10-2011, 10:09
How often do they ban units from the codex?

The Elder
15-10-2011, 10:15
Except for when TOs ban a unit...

Uhm....

I say what!?!?


Seriously, never heard that one before. The only thing they might do is adding some limitations, but banning...........?:S

Cheers,
The Elder

Charistoph
15-10-2011, 18:18
How often do they ban units from the codex?

Uhm....

I say what!?!?


Seriously, never heard that one before. The only thing they might do is adding some limitations, but banning...........?:S

Cheers,
The Elder

Not very often on the 40K front, but in Fantasy, it happens a lot. But the one glaring one I can think of is Special/Unique Characters, though that one is disappearing in 40K.

The Elder
15-10-2011, 20:04
Special characters are actually the only one I'm aware of, but can you name any others?
As I've never seen it happen in 40K tournaments, and i've been to quite a few.

Cheers,
The Elder

TheLaughingGod
18-10-2011, 02:35
So I noticed that in PotS a Wave Serpent has a Holofield. At first I wondered if that was a gaffe by the writer, but Gav Thorpe is a pretty dedicated Eldar fan. Perhaps they're planning on making Energy Field or Holofield an option on certain vehicles.

I'm thinking that War Walkers and Wave Serpents have an option to take either Energy Fields or Holofields

Energy Field adds +2 Armor on Front and Side arcs against shooting only and only allows +1D6 armor penetration and ignores Lance.

Holofields give 4+ Invul save if the vehicle moved. Increase to 3+ invul save if moving flat-out

That's how I'd rule it anyways.

Yes, that means AV14/14/10 Wave Serpents, but frankly, if you did that and they costed about what they do now it would be about right I think.

Spell_of_Destruction
18-10-2011, 02:57
How about -1 S to shooting weapons from the front and side? Ignores melta rule. This would make it slightly worse against S10, the same against S9, better against S8 and much better against S7.

It's basically plus 1 armour but you wouldn't need an 'ignore lance' rule.


_____________________________________________

TheLaughingGod
18-10-2011, 03:10
How about -1 S to shooting weapons from the front and side? Ignores melta rule. This would make it slightly worse against S10, the same against S9, better against S8 and much better against S7.

It's basically plus 1 armour but you wouldn't need an 'ignore lance' rule.


_____________________________________________

I'd do -2 Strength then. I'd like it to actually be effective on War Walkers.

Spell_of_Destruction
18-10-2011, 03:21
You would have to playtest it. -1S isn't too different from the current rules, it just affects all weapons rather than S10 and S9 weapons. It's still a buff IMO and would still benefit Warwalkers.

-2S would be a big change (particularly with the current damage table) and would make Serpents near on indestructable. I remember using 14/14/10 Serpents in 3rd ed before the 3rd ed codex came out and it wasn't pretty...

TheLaughingGod
18-10-2011, 03:25
You would have to playtest it. -1S isn't too different from the current rules, it just affects all weapons rather than S10 and S9 weapons. It's still a buff IMO and would still benefit Warwalkers.

-2S would be a big change (particularly with the current damage table) and would make Serpents near on indestructable. I remember using 14/14/10 Serpents in 3rd ed before the 3rd ed codex came out and it wasn't pretty...

I suppose that's true. It would still be less tough than a Land Raider/Monolith and with a lot less firepower. Highly vulnerable in hand-to-hand.

Though, now that I think about it -1 Strength makes WWs immune to bolter fire, which isn't too bad at all. -2 Strength would require autocannons to even penetrate

Edit: Spell_of_Destruction. Without the Energy Field and TL Shuricannons as default, what would you price the Wave Serpent as?

Spell_of_Destruction
18-10-2011, 04:47
Relative to other Transports, I reckon they are overcosted by at least 10pts at present.

I'm currently paying 125pts and 145pts for my Serpents with spirit stones and scatter lasers/brightlances respectively. I think that 110/130pts would be closer to the mark.

Shamana
18-10-2011, 11:21
My first idea about a holo-field is that it would probably make it harder to hit the vehicle. Instead of any save, I think making enemies reroll successful to-hit rolls would likely be better. If that doesn't work, then counting the vehicle as concealed (or better concealment cover save if it would already have it) can also work, but should imo be a secondary option.

Azulthar
18-10-2011, 11:33
IMHO Eldar should be about mobility and the "perfect plan". The kind of army where you maneuver all your units in just the right position and then unleash hell.

I think having relatively short-range firepower therefore fits them. Not necessarily from a fluff-technology point of view, but from a fluff-tactical point of view. It encourages you to maneuver, it encourages you to strike simultaneously and with overwhelming force or risk the backlash.

I'd like to see Eldar get very powerful/reliable ways to Outflank/Deepstrike/etc to further support this playstyle. Guardians should get a range increase: they're the defensive element, the part of the army that fights 'normally' while the more specialized units get in position.

Spell_of_Destruction
18-10-2011, 13:55
My first idea about a holo-field is that it would probably make it harder to hit the vehicle. Instead of any save, I think making enemies reroll successful to-hit rolls would likely be better. If that doesn't work, then counting the vehicle as concealed (or better concealment cover save if it would already have it) can also work, but should imo be a secondary option.

The 6th ed rumours suggested that to hit modifiers would be reintroduced via the back door so if that is true I wouldn't be surprised if holo-fields are changed to add a further modifier.

Ianos
18-10-2011, 14:04
The 6th ed rumours suggested that to hit modifiers would be reintroduced via the back door so if that is true I wouldn't be surprised if holo-fields are changed to add a further modifier.

I however strongly believe these rumors to be mostly salt, the shenanigans of assault before shooting alone are enough to convince me.

@Azulthar: Eldar should be about perfection as you say but they should also have spammable units and be able to MSU with a lot of anti-tank like other armies do. The current all eggs in one basket with iffy weapons and sub-par troops has to go.

Superdan21
18-10-2011, 17:25
Only things i really want to see is a rejig of points costs of certain things, seems a bit un balanced these days warp spider points etc, I'd like a points adjust for wave serpents considering the only real tactic for eldar atm is classic transport spam but i personally find the points cost way to expensive especially when compared to 35 points for a rhino (even a new cheaper transport would do :)) I think an open topped transport for things like banshees/harlequins etc would be amazing. Almost certainly we're gonna see a nightwing as GW seem to be in love with adding flyers to armies at the moment, also super heavy battle tank like a scorpian could easily make up for guardians weaknesses, and just some changes to psychic powers and exarch powers i reckon.

Thats all i hope for tbh that and a redesign for vypers and bikes xD with the speed between ogres and necrons (2 months?) quite possible we could see eldar as early as easter or start of summer i reckon, likely will see wood elves/ bretonnians next followed by tau then the other fantasy army then hopefully eldar (going by codex age/popularity)

Inquisitor Kallus
18-10-2011, 18:47
I however strongly believe these rumors to be mostly salt, the shenanigans of assault before shooting alone are enough to convince me.

@Azulthar: Eldar should be about perfection as you say but they should also have spammable units and be able to MSU with a lot of anti-tank like other armies do. The current all eggs in one basket with iffy weapons and sub-par troops has to go.

Good lord I hope not. I want to see that kind of garbage taken out of 4ok.

althathir
19-10-2011, 01:49
Relative to other Transports, I reckon they are overcosted by at least 10pts at present.

I'm currently paying 125pts and 145pts for my Serpents with spirit stones and scatter lasers/brightlances respectively. I think that 110/130pts would be closer to the mark.

What if they gain assualt ramps? My hope is current cost with them.


IMHO Eldar should be about mobility and the "perfect plan". The kind of army where you maneuver all your units in just the right position and then unleash hell.

I think having relatively short-range firepower therefore fits them. Not necessarily from a fluff-technology point of view, but from a fluff-tactical point of view. It encourages you to maneuver, it encourages you to strike simultaneously and with overwhelming force or risk the backlash.

I'd like to see Eldar get very powerful/reliable ways to Outflank/Deepstrike/etc to further support this playstyle. Guardians should get a range increase: they're the defensive element, the part of the army that fights 'normally' while the more specialized units get in position.

Im sure we will see a bit more outflanking, its one area that the eldar codex really shows it age. I don't know if we'll have as much as other armies if autarchs keep the +1 reserve bonus.


I however strongly believe these rumors to be mostly salt, the shenanigans of assault before shooting alone are enough to convince me.

@Azulthar: Eldar should be about perfection as you say but they should also have spammable units and be able to MSU with a lot of anti-tank like other armies do. The current all eggs in one basket with iffy weapons and sub-par troops has to go.

I really hope they gain a bit more anti-tank, but I don't want them to be designed as a MSU army.

As far as anti-tank
1) I'd like to see warlock be able to join most units, witch blades are fairly solid (and it also would support the psycher theme)

2) give avengers the ability to purchase haywire grenades. (that combined with a warlock would give them a decent punch in assault vs. a vehicle)

3) Have swooping hawks or dark reapers become a second anti-vehicle aspect, so fire dragons wouldn't be such a no-brainer. I would like for hawks to pick up that role just because as of now they aren't well defined besides a harassing unit and thats about all they accomplish.


Only things i really want to see is a rejig of points costs of certain things, seems a bit un balanced these days warp spider points etc, I'd like a points adjust for wave serpents considering the only real tactic for eldar atm is classic transport spam but i personally find the points cost way to expensive especially when compared to 35 points for a rhino (even a new cheaper transport would do :)) I think an open topped transport for things like banshees/harlequins etc would be amazing. Almost certainly we're gonna see a nightwing as GW seem to be in love with adding flyers to armies at the moment, also super heavy battle tank like a scorpian could easily make up for guardians weaknesses, and just some changes to psychic powers and exarch powers i reckon.

Thats all i hope for tbh that and a redesign for vypers and bikes xD with the speed between ogres and necrons (2 months?) quite possible we could see eldar as early as easter or start of summer i reckon, likely will see wood elves/ bretonnians next followed by tau then the other fantasy army then hopefully eldar (going by codex age/popularity)

I think eldar will be fairly soon to be honest. Tau were rumoured to be getting a small update (new dwarf guys (demiberg?) iirc) then a full codex release later. Then you factor in the 40k MMO thats supposed to come out in 2013 which eldar are supposed to be a playable race in and it points to an earlier release.

I could see chaos legions this spring, 6th edition, eldar first sixth book, black templars in march of 2013 (to tie in with the game), then orks (the other rumoured race) than all four of the MMO fractions would have a recent a dex. Though that may make to much sense.