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View Full Version : Blast from the Past: Remember how nobody would take Tomb Guard?



Makaber
05-01-2012, 01:10
Hi y'all, I thought I'd take a trip down memory lane a little and talk about Tomb King Skeletons. And Vampire Counts, I guess.

See, this one thing keeps popping up in all the VC threads now (as I'm sure you've noticed): Nothing has been done about the Skeletons, even though the Tomb Kings book proved the concept, as it stands now, isn't really working. For those of you who were going to bitch about Tyranids and clicked the wrong forum by mistake, or otherwise live under a rock: They die twofold due to primarily sucking, and secondarily crumbling (from sucking too hard).

The argument goes that Tomb Kings players fill their core with Chariots and Archers, and then go to town on Tomb Guards to fill their combat blocks, leaving Skeleton Warriors to collect dust on a shelf. And now we see the same with Vampire Counts (supposedly). And this whole debacle reminds me a lot about the bitching that went on when rumors and tidbits about the Tomb Kings book started trinkeling forth, and indeed persisted a little after the book was released too.

They were about how underpowered Skeletons were, and how Tomb Guard would surely form the mainstay battle line, and ... Nah, just kidding, it was the complete other way around. As I remember it, the argument went that a Skeleton was so cheap in comparison to a Tomb Guard, you could get over twice as many. So why would anyone bother taking Tomb Guard when you paid 7 points more a pop for advantages that could be negated by characters (to make up for low Weapon Skill), numbers (to make up for lower Toughness) and numbers again (by putting them in Hordes to make up for in number of attacks what you lose out on in Strength). No, Tomb Guards were quickly debunked within a week of the release of the book, and Skeleton Warriors were hailed as the go-to troop type for a successful Tomb Kings army.

By you.

The Internet.

So in your face, I guess. But I sort of have a point with all this (other than practicing my typing for my next project, the Kongolesan crime drama "The Driver Who Talked Too Much"). Stop bitching about a book that isn't even released yet. For all we know there's some Banner, some Spell, some Vampire Power, that makes them all worthwhile. I don't know, I might be wrong. But so might you. So don't get your panties in your bunch because of a list you haven't read, and havn't played. Take heed of this cautionary tale... from the tooooomb!

PurpleSun
05-01-2012, 01:41
Wait, so do Tomb Guard suck or not?

castellanash
05-01-2012, 01:47
Personal preference I've always thought they were worth it

Enigmatik1
05-01-2012, 03:53
Personal preference I've always thought they were worth it

Same, although I admit to hoping that Skeletons would finally be worth fielding at their reduced value. Needless to say, that hope was extremely short lived as they died in droves just as fast as before. Yeah, I could field more of them than before. But losing combat by 10 is still losing combat by 10 in combined combats. Ohai Warsph...oh damn, bye Warsphinx!

Luckily, I never abandoned my Tomb Guard because, let's be brutally honest, they're the only viable infantry in the Tomb King army.

gdsora
05-01-2012, 04:01
I don't remember anyone championing the usefulness of skeletons. I understand people enjoyed paying a less price for them, but I never saw anyone stating they would rather take skeletons then TG

Aluinn
05-01-2012, 04:32
Hi y'all, I thought I'd take a trip down memory lane a little and talk about Tomb King Skeletons. And Vampire Counts, I guess.

See, this one thing keeps popping up in all the VC threads now (as I'm sure you've noticed): Nothing has been done about the Skeletons, even though the Tomb Kings book proved the concept, as it stands now, isn't really working. For those of you who were going to bitch about Tyranids and clicked the wrong forum by mistake, or otherwise live under a rock: They die twofold due to primarily sucking, and secondarily crumbling (from sucking too hard).

The argument goes that Tomb Kings players fill their core with Chariots and Archers, and then go to town on Tomb Guards to fill their combat blocks, leaving Skeleton Warriors to collect dust on a shelf. And now we see the same with Vampire Counts (supposedly). And this whole debacle reminds me a lot about the bitching that went on when rumors and tidbits about the Tomb Kings book started trinkeling forth, and indeed persisted a little after the book was released too.

They were about how underpowered Skeletons were, and how Tomb Guard would surely form the mainstay battle line, and ... Nah, just kidding, it was the complete other way around. As I remember it, the argument went that a Skeleton was so cheap in comparison to a Tomb Guard, you could get over twice as many. So why would anyone bother taking Tomb Guard when you paid 7 points more a pop for advantages that could be negated by characters (to make up for low Weapon Skill), numbers (to make up for lower Toughness) and numbers again (by putting them in Hordes to make up for in number of attacks what you lose out on in Strength). No, Tomb Guards were quickly debunked within a week of the release of the book, and Skeleton Warriors were hailed as the go-to troop type for a successful Tomb Kings army.

By you.

The Internet.

So in your face, I guess. But I sort of have a point with all this (other than practicing my typing for my next project, the Kongolesan crime drama "The Driver Who Talked Too Much"). Stop bitching about a book that isn't even released yet. For all we know there's some Banner, some Spell, some Vampire Power, that makes them all worthwhile. I don't know, I might be wrong. But so might you. So don't get your panties in your bunch because of a list you haven't read, and havn't played. Take heed of this cautionary tale... from the tooooomb!

This is amusing, and though I can't entirely remember what people were saying about TG and Skeletons in the Tomb Kings rumor phase myself, I can say I agree with you about VC.

But I'd go one further and say that people may still be wrong about TK Skeletons and that they might be a fine unit and all (if accompanied by a Prince/King), save that Chariots are better most of the time. Units can be worse than others without actually being bad, and conventional wisdom, especially on the internet, is not always ... wise.

If I may go on my own mini-rant, there are lots of complaints about netlisting, but one I don't often hear but which I think is true is that, once a netlist becomes "crystallized" in the sense that it acknowledged by a majority to be "the best", few people are willing to advocate anything outside of that as being useful in any way for fear of being seen as "noobs". This is stupid; lists appearing on BoLS and written by Famous One-Time-Almost Tournament Winner Smuggy McSmug are not, it should be needless to say, necessarily optimal, certainly not in every meta and certainly not for every player. And as this applies to lists, it also applies to individual units, character builds, etc.

So this is to say that I think the problem is not only a lack of knowledge, but a blind quest for consensus that frees the individual from having to innovate and adapt to their own personal playstyle.

Lord Dan
05-01-2012, 05:10
Wait, in whose face?

Sexiest_hero
05-01-2012, 06:11
Skeletons do fine matched up with clan rats men at arms and goblins. People who saied only take sketons, foolishly thought you don't need elite troops, then ran skelies into chosen then say skeles suck. See skeletons tackle the 100 goblin horde, TG tackle the Black orcs.

Always remember the internet is stupid, and only wants to take one unit (like sword masters) and spam it. The internet likes to call you stupid if you don't back up it's little ego.

theJ
05-01-2012, 07:45
I picked up the book hoping for some skeletey asskicking, although my reason for dropping it again were the models - I never even got around to trying the rules out :(

Spiney Norman
05-01-2012, 08:43
Skeletons do fine matched up with clan rats men at arms and goblins. People who saied only take sketons, foolishly thought you don't need elite troops, then ran skelies into chosen then say skeles suck. See skeletons tackle the 100 goblin horde, TG tackle the Black orcs.

Always remember the internet is stupid, and only wants to take one unit (like sword masters) and spam it. The internet likes to call you stupid if you don't back up it's little ego.

Exactly this, people use skeletons for the wrong things and think that they suck because they die. Yeah, if you stick your skeletons in front of a chose star or mind razored HE spearman then watch them disappear, but pitch the against something a little more their class and they do good.

I don't think anyone would dispute that the best TK core unit is chariots, in groups of 6-8 those things are damn nasty, but that doesn't mean you should ignore the others entirely.

Tomb guard are good, but I'm still trying to figure out why people think that 2pts is a sensible amount to spend for +1 str, -1AS and -parry save.

Skywave
05-01-2012, 09:34
Exactly this, people use skeletons for the wrong things and think that they suck because they die. Yeah, if you stick your skeletons in front of a chose star or mind razored HE spearman then watch them disappear, but pitch the against something a little more their class and they do good.

I don't think anyone would dispute that the best TK core unit is chariots, in groups of 6-8 those things are damn nasty, but that doesn't mean you should ignore the others entirely.

Tomb guard are good, but I'm still trying to figure out why people think that 2pts is a sensible amount to spend for +1 str, -1AS and -parry save.

But the major gripe with Skeletons is that the other weak troops in other armies have steadfast, and are thus better at holding nasty and scary units.

People tried the same with Skeletons, but it obviously don't work, and many think it's the role that Skeletons should fill. You might kill 20 Skaven Slaves, but they'll have a good chance to hold with the BSB and General. For the Skeletons though, it mean you loose 20 in the fight and about 15-20 more from crumble. The Skeletons won't last as long as the other at this rate, you'll loose them twice fast but will have less of them since they cost more than the other tarpit units you see around.

This edition is just a hot mess for the weaker undead, and there's no way around it. The stronger, killier units can get along with it most of the time, but the rest, the core of the army (both for TK and VC) suffer greatly.

Yamabushi
05-01-2012, 10:21
What about a role as an anti-tarpit tarpit?

You know that block of slaves is coming for your Warsphinx, so send in the skellies to tarpit them instead so that your warsphinx is free to do whatever it was intended to be.

The Skellies might or might not win, but that's not the point anyway.

Sexiest_hero
05-01-2012, 12:09
But the major gripe with Skeletons is that the other weak troops in other armies have steadfast, and are thus better at holding nasty and scary units.

Thats the Issue people try to play undead like any other army. Skeletons are for fighting other base troops, and keep them from tying up our heavy hitters. Undead can afford to slug out elites v elites, as ours come back. Let the skeletons take the slaves, whille the TG take on the screamingbell.

The Death of Reason
05-01-2012, 12:18
My VC were always based on skellies. Ghouls had such inferior models :)

Enigmatik1
05-01-2012, 13:57
Skeletons do fine matched up with clan rats men at arms and goblins. People who saied only take sketons, foolishly thought you don't need elite troops, then ran skelies into chosen then say skeles suck. See skeletons tackle the 100 goblin horde, TG tackle the Black orcs.

Always remember the internet is stupid, and only wants to take one unit (like sword masters) and spam it. The internet likes to call you stupid if you don't back up it's little ego.

Agreed.

My hatred of Skeletons stems from the fact that outside of clanrats or slaves, I don't see the kind of infantry that they actually function against in my local metagame. Skeletons work just fine against, as I said earlier, normal human statlines, baseline equipment options and 1A. I just happen to not see that outside of Skaven.

I seriously doubt that anyone with even a single brain cell would willingly traipse a Skeleton block into a unit of Chosen, but I suppose stranger things have happened.

Lordy
05-01-2012, 14:39
Skeleton Warriors and Tomb Guard are both crap, this thread is confuse :(

Help me internet.

Crovax20
05-01-2012, 14:41
Skeleton Warriors and Tomb Guard are both crap, this thread is confuse :(

Help me internet.

Reach towards the back end of your PC and pull out every single plug.. and pray its not a laptop, because else it will take a bit longer and be more painful

BigbyWolf
05-01-2012, 14:54
Wait, in whose face?

Yours, and mine apparently.

Funny though, I don't remember saying anything of the sort. He's written a lot, and used some long words though, so he must be correct.

malisteen
05-01-2012, 18:09
OP: some players were duped into thinking a points cost adjustment could fix skeletons. That wasn't true, and soon they realized it wasn't true, and it wasn't because there was some mystery banner for tomb guard that hadn't been seen, it was because skeletons just don't work in 8th edition. Some people have forgotten that lesson, and are now once again falling for the idea that merely making skeletons (and zombies for that matter) cheaper is enough to fix their problems.

And it still isn't.

Who's forgetting the lessons of the past, again?


So could there be something we haven't seen in the book that makes skeletons a reasonable choice? Sure. But if there is we haven't seen it, and those claiming that vamp skeletons will replace ghouls as the new go to core just because they're cheaper and ghouls are more expensive are making the same mistake as those who thought skeletons would replace tomb guard in tomb kings armies.

Rikkjourd
05-01-2012, 22:49
The blast from the past for me is being tabled all the time and never getting any enjoyment out of TK (gaming wise that is).

T10
06-01-2012, 15:16
Sure, Skeleton warriors suck. They are clearly the poorest-quality mainstay units in the game.

But hey, /somebody/ has got to finish last, right?

GrandmasterWang
09-01-2012, 02:21
I remember people saying that.

That said, i have no problem with TK (or VC) skeletons. I mean with MWBD I think 5 pts for a fear causing skeleton with WS 6 and a parry save is pretty good.

Skeletons work fine in 8th for what they are. Cheap bones to get stomped on good. I mean who doesn't like killing skeletons?

Okuto
09-01-2012, 03:18
I never ever found elite infantry really worth anything....I never liked the idea of a slow moving killy foot unit.....I only took black orcs cause they looked cool....and they use to stop animosity dead.....and they were priced ok....before goldsword maddness

AS for Tomb Guard.....even if I wanted them I refuse paying the pricetag for them

Though I will say they are nice and killy....I just puke at their pricetag.....