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Akaiyou
07-01-2012, 06:31
Same as the title, what are the most competitive builds for blood angels currently?

I have a choke full of marines and chaos marines that aren't seeing much use so i'm thinking of doing some converting...I was thinking blood angels would be a good fit for my spare models/bits.

The only question now is what are all the top builds/units to use/get for a 1,500 - 2,000 pt BA army.

slingersam
07-01-2012, 08:53
Their is only 2 choices preds/ razor spam. and infantry horde. so assault marines + missile launchers. with FNP

GenerationTerrorist
07-01-2012, 17:53
For powergaming with BA, you generally can't go too wrong by starting with Fist/Hammer Sgt and 2 Meltaguns in a 10-Man Assault Squad with a Priest tagging along to give them FNP. Probably one of the best all-round troop units in the game.

I've never tried/faced the mechanised version of the army, so will pass up the opportunity to comment on how effective that particular build is. Sure that others will comment on it, though.

Sinisterfence
07-01-2012, 18:51
I wouldn't say there are only 2 viable builds, I have a pretty varied army that's pretty effective, I've only really lost while experimenting with new units, or more recently when I tried a Dreadnought spam for the lulz.
Although I will say the only viable HQ is a Librarian, ridiculously cheap and powerful, I always run a TA Epistolary, I tried to replace it with a power armoured captain with thunder hammer just to try and not be cheesy but captains have a ridiculous and unjustified points cost.

zoodog
07-01-2012, 19:13
AV 13 spam or rasor spam are likely at the top since it can deal with the most varied opponents.

Pure jumpers (also called DOA, descent of angels) isn't likely to do well at higher levels but can be an interesting army to play. It has several bad match ups though. So mixing it to blood rodeo (add bikers) or a heavy element like preds of deves increases the flexibility.

Depending on the point level duel ravens can work.

Nipple wing (sang guard list) is hard to play vs some opponents and thus is likely not a top list but could blow away the painting scores (but would be hard to put together from other marines).

if you go to 3plusplus.net (http://www.3plusplus.net/p/army-list-compilation.html) they have a bit of listing on these different types.

I personally play hybrid mostly and frankly the codex has quite good internal balance compared to most GW products and you can spend quite a long time debating between several choices.

Ulrig
07-01-2012, 21:46
A guy in my group plays them

Stormraven loaded with Terminators, Death Company Dread
Stormraven Loaded with Death Company, Death Company Dread
Razorbacks loaded with other goodies
Hard for me to deal with orks, hits so fast and hard with higher init.

Carnage
07-01-2012, 23:26
A guy in my group plays them

Stormraven loaded with Terminators, Death Company Dread
Stormraven Loaded with Death Company, Death Company Dread
Razorbacks loaded with other goodies
Hard for me to deal with orks, hits so fast and hard with higher init.

Those are death-star-esque units. Not really bad overall, but realize that the death-star style of play doesn't hold up too well in the higher end gaming. In fact one of my friends liked to play an army of that style. He did very well with it overall, but didn't have a prayer against the best players/lists because of a couple of really large glaring issues with the list, mainly, that Storm Raven are fragile as hell and completely pivotal to his army list. I once nuked all 3 of his ravens off the board first turn before he had a chance to move them, it was basically game over at the top of turn 1.

That type of list is all about living through the first turn to have a prayer. Even if you get lucky and lose nothing first turn, you still have a fight on your hands.

As for the best BA lists? There's 2 main ones out there ATM.

1. DOA (Descent of Angels); Basically a ton of Assault marines with FnP. Backed up with missile devastators and/or land speeders/bikes to throw down some firepower. The issue with this list is match-ups, there are a few armies out there it makes a mockery of (IG for example) and others that take it apart with ease (GK and Nids in my experience).

2. Armor Spam; Razors, Predators, Dreads, etc. Basically 5 man assault squads in razors and lots of armor. This is what I play ATM. It has a couple of poor match ups, but not nearly as bad as DOA has, but it also fares pretty well against the top tier armies of SW/IG/GK/DE. That said, I find it pretty boring to play with, since it's all shooting, and all vehicles, your infantry play a "Hide on the objective and don't die" role more then anything.

Those are the "Good" lists that have proven tournament performance. There are Dread-bash lists, Hybrid-lists, Bike lists, and of course the Sang guard army as well, but they aren't accepted as being as powerful as the other 2.

zoodog
08-01-2012, 01:56
Unfortunately jumper list have an incredibly hard time with Grey Knights. Power weapons and I6 just tear it apart and they can outshoot you as well. So it depends on your local meta.

Ulrig
08-01-2012, 03:04
Those are death-star-esque units. Not really bad overall, but realize that the death-star style of play doesn't hold up too well in the higher end gaming. In fact one of my friends liked to play an army of that style. He did very well with it overall, but didn't have a prayer against the best players/lists because of a couple of really large glaring issues with the list, mainly, that Storm Raven are fragile as hell and completely pivotal to his army list. I once nuked all 3 of his ravens off the board first turn before he had a chance to move them, it was basically game over at the top of turn 1.

That type of list is all about living through the first turn to have a prayer. Even if you get lucky and lose nothing first turn, you still have a fight on your hands.

As for the best BA lists? There's 2 main ones out there ATM.

1. DOA (Descent of Angels); Basically a ton of Assault marines with FnP. Backed up with missile devastators and/or land speeders/bikes to throw down some firepower. The issue with this list is match-ups, there are a few armies out there it makes a mockery of (IG for example) and others that take it apart with ease (GK and Nids in my experience).

2. Armor Spam; Razors, Predators, Dreads, etc. Basically 5 man assault squads in razors and lots of armor. This is what I play ATM. It has a couple of poor match ups, but not nearly as bad as DOA has, but it also fares pretty well against the top tier armies of SW/IG/GK/DE. That said, I find it pretty boring to play with, since it's all shooting, and all vehicles, your infantry play a "Hide on the objective and don't die" role more then anything.

Those are the "Good" lists that have proven tournament performance. There are Dread-bash lists, Hybrid-lists, Bike lists, and of course the Sang guard army as well, but they aren't accepted as being as powerful as the other 2.

I know storm ravens have lower AV, but I play orks, not exactly loaded with ways to deal with it from a distance. Plus he can drop one on me first reserve roll, and is in assault before lootas have a chance.

Out of a storm raven is dropped two units that can make two charges that can almost certainly wipe out what they charge.

Last game we played, the Dread took out 18 orks before he failed to roll a wound. My PK nob immobilized it, but my boyz ran off the board anyway.

The termies got knocked down to two models, but the nobs they hit took heavier wounds and ran off the board.

Death Company charged, 40 power weapon attacks = full dead squad of boyz.

The problem is having the crap dumped on you with no way to respond. He will get the charge, he will have initiative. Your stuff will die.

Currently I don't think the ork codex has the ability to compete with this, its codex creep at its worst.

Carnage
08-01-2012, 06:08
I know storm ravens have lower AV, but I play orks, not exactly loaded with ways to deal with it from a distance. Plus he can drop one on me first reserve roll, and is in assault before lootas have a chance.

Out of a storm raven is dropped two units that can make two charges that can almost certainly wipe out what they charge.

Last game we played, the Dread took out 18 orks before he failed to roll a wound. My PK nob immobilized it, but my boyz ran off the board anyway.

The termies got knocked down to two models, but the nobs they hit took heavier wounds and ran off the board.

Death Company charged, 40 power weapon attacks = full dead squad of boyz.

The problem is having the crap dumped on you with no way to respond. He will get the charge, he will have initiative. Your stuff will die.

Currently I don't think the ork codex has the ability to compete with this, its codex creep at its worst.

The DC dread should kill around 9 on the charge (Holy crap, first time I've math'ed that out, that a hellva lot) not 18. Combat res is going to be messy though, and that might be where your 18 came from.

Lets say there were 9 DC, with a chaplain, all with power weapons. 200+ point transport, ~100 point chappy, 315 points of DC = 615 points, that's 90 orks + toys vs 10 guys and a transport, losing 30 and killing them all is a WIN, not a loss really. S5, I5, 4 attacks each on the charge, rerolling hit and wounds. Bloody hell, 31-32 dead orks. Even if they DON'T have power weapons (reducing the squad cost by 135 points to 180 points) you are still looking at 26-27 dead orks. Before combat resolution. If he manages to multi-charge 2 or 3 units he may be able to wipe 60-90 orks off the board on the charge.

Okay, I get your point about crazy damage.

Are you playing Green-tide or something, because I could see how this could be a problem for you. Mech orks might be okay though. Battlewagons should prevent him from charging your main squads and the dethrollas kinda make a mess of the dreads. Lootas and maybe some big gunz might give you a shot at the ravens.

His DC run any powerfists? Killa kans might be able to wreck them, but they'd have to avoid the TH/SS termies, and probably the blender dreads as well. So, again, maybe not.

How many points was the BA army anyways? Cause 600 for the DC raven, and another ~425 for the Hammer-raven, 250 for the dreads, min troops and you are already pushing 1500.

This is very similar to what my friend used to do, his 1500 list was something like; 2 Ravens, AC/LC pred, 4 DC w/power weapons + lemartes, 5 scouts w/missile/snipers, Mephiston, 2 furioso blood-talon dreads. It was death star hell, the DC, dreads or meph could each dump a fairly large squad each a turn, the trick was making sure they never saw combat on their own terms, only on your own terms. He basically walked over 90% of the people he played because they weren't able to intercept the squads before he put them where he wanted them.

I'm confident the orks COULD win, but if it's a solid BA player he's not going to be making it easy on you.

Ulrig
08-01-2012, 06:54
The DC dread should kill around 9 on the charge (Holy crap, first time I've math'ed that out, that a hellva lot) not 18. Combat res is going to be messy though, and that might be where your 18 came from.

Lets say there were 9 DC, with a chaplain, all with power weapons. 200+ point transport, ~100 point chappy, 315 points of DC = 615 points, that's 90 orks + toys vs 10 guys and a transport, losing 30 and killing them all is a WIN, not a loss really. S5, I5, 4 attacks each on the charge, rerolling hit and wounds. Bloody hell, 31-32 dead orks. Even if they DON'T have power weapons (reducing the squad cost by 135 points to 180 points) you are still looking at 26-27 dead orks. Before combat resolution. If he manages to multi-charge 2 or 3 units he may be able to wipe 60-90 orks off the board on the charge.

Okay, I get your point about crazy damage.

Are you playing Green-tide or something, because I could see how this could be a problem for you. Mech orks might be okay though. Battlewagons should prevent him from charging your main squads and the dethrollas kinda make a mess of the dreads. Lootas and maybe some big gunz might give you a shot at the ravens.

His DC run any powerfists? Killa kans might be able to wreck them, but they'd have to avoid the TH/SS termies, and probably the blender dreads as well. So, again, maybe not.

How many points was the BA army anyways? Cause 600 for the DC raven, and another ~425 for the Hammer-raven, 250 for the dreads, min troops and you are already pushing 1500.

This is very similar to what my friend used to do, his 1500 list was something like; 2 Ravens, AC/LC pred, 4 DC w/power weapons + lemartes, 5 scouts w/missile/snipers, Mephiston, 2 furioso blood-talon dreads. It was death star hell, the DC, dreads or meph could each dump a fairly large squad each a turn, the trick was making sure they never saw combat on their own terms, only on your own terms. He basically walked over 90% of the people he played because they weren't able to intercept the squads before he put them where he wanted them.

I'm confident the orks COULD win, but if it's a solid BA player he's not going to be making it easy on you.

18 orks, before combat resolution...not kidding. Dual Blood Talons, every wound caused creates an additional attack. Hits on 3+, re-roll misses, wound on 2+ with no armour save.

We were playing at 1500 pts

He popped my BW easily (I should of had two, but only one in game...my screw up with special rules for current campaign)

Carnage
08-01-2012, 07:04
18 orks, before combat resolution...not kidding. Dual Blood Talons, every wound caused creates an additional attack. Hits on 3+, re-roll misses, wound on 2+ with no armour save.

We were playing at 1500 pts

He popped my BW easily (I should of had two, but only one in game...my screw up with special rules for current campaign)

The re-roll is on the wound roll actually, not the to-hit. Still, that's some wacky rolling right there. My personal best was with a normal furioso dread, 10 termigants dead on the charge, was pretty awesome.

What did he pop the BW with out of interest? TL-MM on the raven?

Ulrig
08-01-2012, 07:05
The re-roll is on the wound roll actually, not the to-hit. Still, that's some wacky rolling right there. My personal best was with a normal furioso dread, 10 termigants dead on the charge, was pretty awesome.

What did he pop the BW with out of interest? TL-MM on the raven?

yep, rolled a 5 on pen chart, open top=boom

Carnage
08-01-2012, 07:22
Not much you can really do about that. Still, it's possible to beat that BA list with orks, just need to run a top shelf list to do it.

MagicHat
08-01-2012, 10:38
Well, I just sat down to do some idle dice rolls of a charging DC dread. First batch 6 kills, second batch 2 kills, third batch 23 kills. 24 is my personal best...
Usually I average 10 kills though.

zoodog
08-01-2012, 21:24
Well, I just sat down to do some idle dice rolls of a charging DC dread. First batch 6 kills, second batch 2 kills, third batch 23 kills. 24 is my personal best...
Usually I average 10 kills though.

The DC version can be even scarier (but is prone to being forced into an opponent it does poorly vs) with the extra attack and FA. I find that both claw dreads rarely survive to combat as they draw a ton of fire (which you can sometimes use to your advantage). Though I don't own a stormraven, which would be the optimal way to deploy them.

The frag cannon w/ drop pod can put out quite a lot of dependable hurt without the opponent having much to do about it.

Carnage
08-01-2012, 22:11
The DC version can be even scarier (but is prone to being forced into an opponent it does poorly vs) with the extra attack and FA. I find that both claw dreads rarely survive to combat as they draw a ton of fire (which you can sometimes use to your advantage). Though I don't own a stormraven, which would be the optimal way to deploy them.

The frag cannon w/ drop pod can put out quite a lot of dependable hurt without the opponent having much to do about it.

The normal furioso dread has the extra front armor which is extremely nice. Makes you immune to S6, aka krak grenades, other Blood Talon dreads, dreads w/o powerfists and a slew of other unpleasantness.

Last 2 games my furioso dread tar-pitted a Thunder-Wolf lord one game, because he didn't have a fist/hammer, so just fought him for 3-4 turns. Next game he fought Draigo, who with hammer-hand only manages S6, so i was immune to his attacks as well.

Ravariel
08-01-2012, 22:18
The DC version can be even scarier (but is prone to being forced into an opponent it does poorly vs) with the extra attack and FA.

Don't forget Fleet. Actually I usually just leave the fists on the DCD, for exactly that reason. If someone wanted to put up another Furioso or Ironclad as a blocker, a talon DCD can do nothing about it. I generally just like to be able to reliably wound everything the DCD goes after, since I don't get to choose. I keep the Cheater Talons on the Furioso. :)

Sinisterfence
09-01-2012, 02:24
To expand a bit on what I said earlier about using a varied list, I run a TA Librarian with a squad of Terminators with a heavy flamer, these guys will either march up with the rest or drop in depending on the size of the board, either way I have to be having a particularly unlucky day to lose more than 2 of these guys. Librarian has Blood Lance and Might of Heroes, they go tank hunting first (My opponent plays Eldar most, and his Fire Prism is annoying for the rest of my army) then seek out his commanders/ elite units and tear them apart in combat.
Next is either Sanguinary Guard or some TH/SS Termies, depending on if I take a Dreadnought and what type, I haven't used the second squad of Termies for a while.
Then either Librarian/ Furioso/ Death Company dreadnought depending on various factors, the Librarian is a demon!
If I take a DC dread I'll take a couple of Sanguinary Priests with jump packs, one with the Sang Guard, one with a squad of assault marines.
I take a squad of Death Company (usually 9) with jump packs, throw in a couple of power weapons and a thunder hammer, and they're pretty nasty, add in Lemartes and they're pretty damn tough! They scare the crap out of your enemy and in my experience tend to survive long enough to get a few hits in, I've had this unit take out half of my enemy's hard hitters within a couple of turns, with my Terminator taking out the other half.
I then run 3 tactical squads, las/ melta/ pf, hb/ melta/ pw and plas/ plas/ pw, these are split into combat squads, sergeant and assault weapon in one, heavy weapon in the other. the heavy half finds a good position to take pot shots, the sergeant/ special weapon half take positions or take on the infantry/ hold up bigger units that get too close and stop them from engaging anything else, I usually en up bringing the heavy bolter up pretty close behind to lend support.
Sometimes I'll throw in a Dreadnought with Multi-Melta, if only because it's the old lead one and I get nostalgic.

2 losses, one of which I ran a list with 4 Dreadnoughts and just filled in the rest of the list so it was usable, the other I had ridiculously bad luck, but could have won by capturing an objective, but forgot the unit I sent to it technically couldn't take objectives. The game's more fun and rewarding when you don't spam ;)

Carnage
09-01-2012, 02:43
To expand a bit on what I said earlier about using a varied list, I run a TA Librarian with a squad of Terminators with a heavy flamer, these guys will either march up with the rest or drop in depending on the size of the board, either way I have to be having a particularly unlucky day to lose more than 2 of these guys. Librarian has Blood Lance and Might of Heroes, they go tank hunting first (My opponent plays Eldar most, and his Fire Prism is annoying for the rest of my army) then seek out his commanders/ elite units and tear them apart in combat.
Next is either Sanguinary Guard or some TH/SS Termies, depending on if I take a Dreadnought and what type, I haven't used the second squad of Termies for a while.
Then either Librarian/ Furioso/ Death Company dreadnought depending on various factors, the Librarian is a demon!
If I take a DC dread I'll take a couple of Sanguinary Priests with jump packs, one with the Sang Guard, one with a squad of assault marines.
I take a squad of Death Company (usually 9) with jump packs, throw in a couple of power weapons and a thunder hammer, and they're pretty nasty, add in Lemartes and they're pretty damn tough! They scare the crap out of your enemy and in my experience tend to survive long enough to get a few hits in, I've had this unit take out half of my enemy's hard hitters within a couple of turns, with my Terminator taking out the other half.
I then run 3 tactical squads, las/ melta/ pf, hb/ melta/ pw and plas/ plas/ pw, these are split into combat squads, sergeant and assault weapon in one, heavy weapon in the other. the heavy half finds a good position to take pot shots, the sergeant/ special weapon half take positions or take on the infantry/ hold up bigger units that get too close and stop them from engaging anything else, I usually en up bringing the heavy bolter up pretty close behind to lend support.
Sometimes I'll throw in a Dreadnought with Multi-Melta, if only because it's the old lead one and I get nostalgic.

2 losses, one of which I ran a list with 4 Dreadnoughts and just filled in the rest of the list so it was usable, the other I had ridiculously bad luck, but could have won by capturing an objective, but forgot the unit I sent to it technically couldn't take objectives. The game's more fun and rewarding when you don't spam ;)

I...you...but...

No. This is basically a solid list of things not to do with Blood Angels.

Dr Zoidberg
09-01-2012, 03:52
I...you...but...

No. This is basically a solid list of things not to do with Blood Angels.

Why? :confused:

zoodog
09-01-2012, 04:05
I...you...but...

No. This is basically a solid list of things not to do with Blood Angels.

It is certainly not what most would consider. Though I guess it could work in non competitive situations.

The few units considered poor/overcosted in the codex are the captain (too many other good choices and doesn't really bring anything new)and jump death company (to expensive for a rage unit). DC tycho is just bad (not an IC, rage, and just all around unimpressive). There are several other situational like tac squads, and tac termies as well as many of the special characters (mephy and corbs are both considered good though). I have also never seen anyone include a whirlwind (though I'll do it just for kicks) or a techmarine.

Carnage
09-01-2012, 04:53
Okay, will explain then.


TA Librarian with a squad of Terminators with a heavy flamer, these guys will either march up with the rest or drop in depending on the size of the board, either way I have to be having a particularly unlucky day to lose more than 2 of these guys.

Librarian has Blood Lance and Might of Heroes, they go tank hunting first (My opponent plays Eldar most, and his Fire Prism is annoying for the rest of my army) then seek out his commanders/ elite units and tear them apart in combat.

Nothing wrong with a librarian, even a Terminator librarian with a storm shield to give him that 2+/3++ save. He makes no mention of the storm shield though. He also mentioned earlier he makes them an Epistolary. This is a 50 point upgrade for a marginal and typically useless increase in ability. At 175+ points (195 if he had that storm shield) you are getting into the territory of 200 point characters which include the likes of Lysander, decked wolf lords and for 65 points more, Mephiston. Might of heroes is straight up inferior to unleash rage, no debate possible. Lance is nice and all, but if he's escorting a squad with storm bolters and a hvy flamer he's seriously shooting himself in the foot here, as he's wasting the flamer/bolters or the lance. At least if they had a cyclone/Ass cannon he would be able to assist the Blood lance with anti-tank.

One of the best setups is shield/rage or shield/lance, since you can cast rage/lance in your turn and shield in your opponent's turn, basically allowing you to use twice as many powers as normal without having to pay the 50 points for the epistolary upgrade.

The second part of this comment is about walking tactical terminators, a weak unit to start with, but borderline useful if given an assault cannon or cyclone missile launcher then goes on to say they use a heavy flamer AND don't lose more then 2? They are a poor unit, with the poor weapon choice escorted by an over-priced badly geared HQ choice. The comment about only losing 2 just shows his opponent's aren't great or he's obscenely lucky, as I managed to blast 8 paladins off the board, in cover, under sanctuary, in 2 turns last game (1500 points no less). Math shows that his ~400 point unit of 7 wounds has less survivability to bolter fire then an equal amount of points of assault or tactical marines.


Next is either Sanguinary Guard or some TH/SS Termies, depending on if I take a Dreadnought and what type, I haven't used the second squad of Termies for a while.

Sanguinary Guard are decent, but I'd be wary of using them in a list that cannot support them properly. Would work best in a DoA list I'd imagine, in a mish-mash list like this they are just going to outpace the walking termies/dreads and get mulched. Or hit a screening unit, kill it then get counter-charged or just blasted off the board.

TH/SS termies are great, but need a Raven or Land Raider to get anywhere. Option "B" is a larger squad deepstriking, but I really dislike deepstrike, too inconsistent for my taste.


Then either Librarian/ Furioso/ Death Company dreadnought depending on various factors, the Librarian is a demon!

Librarian dreads are sub-optimal at best, and I'd only suggest one if you needed the psychic hood.


If I take a DC dread I'll take a couple of Sanguinary Priests with jump packs, one with the Sang Guard, one with a squad of assault marines.
I take a squad of Death Company (usually 9) with jump packs, throw in a couple of power weapons and a thunder hammer, and they're pretty nasty, add in Lemartes and they're pretty damn tough! They scare the crap out of your enemy and in my experience tend to survive long enough to get a few hits in, I've had this unit take out half of my enemy's hard hitters within a couple of turns, with my Terminator taking out the other half.

Nothing wrong with Sang priests especially with a jump packs escorting Assault marines.

Death Company are a bad choice, and jump packs are even worse. Rage makes them pretty much impossible to control, and their jump packs are badly over priced (35 points a guy is getting into Terminator range). The squad he runs with Lemartes is (I kid you not) 525+ points, depending on how many a "couple" of power weapons are (I guessed 2 for 525 points). The amount of stuff you could get for 525 points is staggering, and these guys are not worth this many points. Also, not scoring is kind of a let down here. For 525 points he could get a Librarian in terminator armor and 10 assault terminators, deep strike them and watch people panic.

DC being a bad choice really takes the shine off the other-wise decent DC Dread. Fleet plus stun/shake immune + 3 base attacks is pretty awesome. Personally, I think DC should be shelved along with their dreads for normal furiosos and more assault marines/other stuff.


I then run 3 tactical squads, las/ melta/ pf, hb/ melta/ pw and plas/ plas/ pw, these are split into combat squads, sergeant and assault weapon in one, heavy weapon in the other. the heavy half finds a good position to take pot shots, the sergeant/ special weapon half take positions or take on the infantry/ hold up bigger units that get too close and stop them from engaging anything else, I usually en up bringing the heavy bolter up pretty close behind to lend support.

Tactical squads SUCK. They suck for vanilla marines and they suck for Blood Angels. One of the things that lets BA claw their way from being a second tier to a first tier codex is the fact they do not have to take tactical squads. Their damage output is weak, they have mediocre survivability and weak combat abilities, slow as dirt and need hand holding to survive a typical game. These flaws are compounded by the fact assault squads in a BA army get so many buffs and discounts and so forth they make tacticals look like chumps.

Also, I would not suggest power weapons/fists for tactical marines, they don't belong in combat, and putting it there "just in case" is not my style. I prefer to plan and use them optimally and use my points to that end.

BA does not do Tactical squads in a serious competitive list. Period.


Sometimes I'll throw in a Dreadnought with Multi-Melta, if only because it's the old lead one and I get nostalgic.

Nothing wrong with a budget dread, I use this model myself sometimes. Primary downside here is it eats a HS slot, which is better spent on other stuff, but if you can spare the slot, it's not all bad.


The game's more fun and rewarding when you don't spam ;)
Depends on your definition of spam I suppose.

slingersam
09-01-2012, 05:37
Exactly 10man dc plus jump packs. on top of this tactical squads. i just don't see the synergy to making a good list

slingersam
09-01-2012, 05:51
BA need to be able to work as one. that's y golden host armies, assault marines + missiles or AV 13 spam lists are the top lists. they all synergize well within each other.
Take a look at the assault marine list. You either deal with the 40marines with fnp and 5+ cover. or u get blasted by the 12rockets in the back that have a 4+ cover and fnp.
or the av13 spam. not ez to take out the 8 av13 vehicles + the multiple razor backs. all these lists work well together

Bartali
09-01-2012, 08:44
To be honest most of the BA lists that I see here, B&C, DakkaDakka etc are awful. They usually incorporate death stars that are hugely expensive, don't hit very hard, and are incredibly fragile. These have normally sucked up all of the points, leaving little else for troops or fire support.

As others have already mentioned, generally you’ll want to make a choice between Razors with Pred support or Jumpers with Dev support. Get the basics right, and you can probably fit in one toy.

Techmarine
09-01-2012, 10:03
To be honest most of the BA lists that I see here, B&C, DakkaDakka etc are awful. They usually incorporate death stars that are hugely expensive, don't hit very hard, and are incredibly fragile. These have normally sucked up all of the points, leaving little else for troops or fire support.

As others have already mentioned, generally you’ll want to make a choice between Razors with Pred support or Jumpers with Dev support. Get the basics right, and you can probably fit in one toy.

While competitive, these lists are also the most boring to play with - and against, in my experience.

Astartes should never be played like Guard. :(

Bartali
09-01-2012, 10:37
Really ? I find those kind of lists immense fun to play with/against, rather than a random battleforce list. Six heavy Flamer razors containing fc/FNP assault marines zooming up to engage your opponent is fun in my book

Never confuse the fluff with what makes a good list.

Carnage
09-01-2012, 14:22
While competitive, these lists are also the most boring to play with - and against, in my experience.

Astartes should never be played like Guard. :(

Well, it's fun for awhile anyways, but I agree, mech spam gets tiring really quick. One of the down sides to the mech spam list is that it's got almost zero overlap with non-mech spam lists. Sure, the preds are usable, but non-JP 5 man assault squads don't really turn into anything else.


Really ? I find those kind of lists immense fun to play with/against, rather than a random battleforce list. Six heavy Flamer razors containing fc/FNP assault marines zooming up to engage your opponent is fun in my book

Never confuse the fluff with what makes a good list.

I find spam tiring personally. It's like "Woohoo! I just killed a razor and the squad inside! Now, to do the exact same thing 5 more times!". It's a challenge of repetition, not a challenge of defeating combinations or specific units in new circumstances. It makes for boring, unmemorable games in my opinion when you are just killing the same unit over and over.

I'm not going to debate and say spam armies are bad, because honestly they aren't, I just find them boring to play against more then a couple of times.

slingersam
09-01-2012, 15:20
Spam armies are very boring. decent ba armies are the golden host. assault + devs, rodeo list can be found on 3++ site

Bartali
10-01-2012, 00:16
Sorry, still don't get why spam armies are boring. I find games involving those are the most exciting tactically as they' re slightly more involved to fight than just shoot the stormraven ;)

@Slingersam I think our definition of competitive differs, 'goldenhost' has too many bad match ups to be truly competitive

havokas
10-01-2012, 00:28
why people run BA with no jump packs in razorbacks.. is beyond me. paint those models grey and run Space Wolves because they do it Much Much better.
don't run the red if you cant get down with the Jump packs.

Ravariel
10-01-2012, 00:30
why people run BA with no jump packs in razorbacks.. is beyond me. paint those models grey and run Space Wolves because they do it Much Much better.
don't run the red if you cant get down with the Jump packs.

My thoughts exactly. I run a mixed, DoA, and rodeo lists and I can't stand razorspam. It's boring, and once the razors are opened up, what's inside can't do jack.

Techmarine
10-01-2012, 06:21
Really ? I find those kind of lists immense fun to play with/against, rather than a random battleforce list. Six heavy Flamer razors containing fc/FNP assault marines zooming up to engage your opponent is fun in my book

Very few people zoom forward to engage, when they're rocking bare-minimum squad sizes, so that they can spam razorbacks. In my personal experience - and that of apparently some others, from what I've gathered from the battle reports section - most people who play the "armor angels" parking-lot just turtle up and await their foe to close the gap.

If that's fun to you though, knock yourself out. I won't lose any sleep.


Never confuse the fluff with what makes a good list.

I don't see how I did. :confused:

Bartali
10-01-2012, 12:29
Very few people zoom forward to engage, when they're rocking bare-minimum squad sizes, so that they can spam razorbacks. In my personal experience - and that of apparently some others, from what I've gathered from the battle reports section - most people who play the "armor angels" parking-lot just turtle up and await their foe to close the gap.

If that's fun to you though, knock yourself out. I won't lose any sleep.

Those lists generally aren't as good as other static marine razor lists, especially GK and SW, as you're not going to be able to get as many shots off, and ASM aren't very good when not initiating an assault, as opposed to Grey Hunters.



I don't see how I did. :confused:


Astartes should never be played like Guard

Techmarine
10-01-2012, 20:55
Those lists generally aren't as good as other static marine razor lists, especially GK and SW, as you're not going to be able to get as many shots off, and ASM aren't very good when not initiating an assault, as opposed to Grey Hunters.

That doesn't somehow mean they don't exist, regardless.

As for your second quote - I stand by that comment - because I don't consider it "confusing fluff with the game". If you want a dedicated shooting army, play one of them; rather than forcing a Marine variant into the mold to lesser effect. I mean hell, playing against an enemy who never moves his forces is boring enough, with the limited armies that currently do it. The last thing this hobby needs is this play-style catching on with Marine players. Static razorback spam is boring to play against.

slingersam
11-01-2012, 09:12
Golden host while not over powered can still decently. yes they have bad match ups. but for a fluffy army it can do fairly well

Bartali
11-01-2012, 12:53
That doesn't somehow mean they don't exist, regardless.

As for your second quote - I stand by that comment - because I don't consider it "confusing fluff with the game". If you want a dedicated shooting army, play one of them; rather than forcing a Marine variant into the mold to lesser effect. I mean hell, playing against an enemy who never moves his forces is boring enough, with the limited armies that currently do it. The last thing this hobby needs is this play-style catching on with Marine players. Static razorback spam is boring to play against.

You are expecting Marines to play as the fluff though. C:SM are for instance a shooting army, BT's best build at the moment is a shooting army. Don't expect Marines to play like Movie Marines - half the reason people complain about tacticals.

Akaiyou
11-01-2012, 13:46
Well I'm actually interested in the DOA lislt even if it has poor matchups against some armies, that strikes me as the more fun variation of the two.

I'm not big on razor spam and certainly my 'view' of BA is more oriented towards a bunch of guys with jump packs rather than bunch of guys in tanks.

I think i'll start up a new BA army with DOA. Seems to be like I'll be able to actually win some games with it as well in good fun games thanks :)

Bartali
11-01-2012, 14:19
Jumpers with fire support is a fine BA list, and how I generally run mine. Don't build the list, or intend to run it as always deep striking though

Techmarine
11-01-2012, 23:44
You are expecting Marines to play as the fluff though. C:SM are for instance a shooting army, BT's best build at the moment is a shooting army. Don't expect Marines to play like Movie Marines - half the reason people complain about tacticals.

No, they're not. I play Salamanders - and have for years. C:SM is a Swiss army-knife of options, as it should be.

Marine's do not have overly-specialized troops; like say, Eldar. They're a middle-ground army, designed to be flexible on the table. They should press the enemies weakness at all times. If you refuse to play them with that same flexibility that they're designed for, you're not playing the army to the best of it's ability - and limiting your tactical options - all at once.

Like I said, if you want a "shooting" army, there are many out there. If you play Marines like parking-lot Guard, you're doing it wrong. And I have to question just how competitive your gaming circle is, if it's working for you.

Death Company
11-01-2012, 23:58
No, they're not. I play Salamanders - and have for years. C:SM is a Swiss army-knife of options, as it should be.

Marine's do not have overly-specialized troops; like say, Eldar. They're a middle-ground army, designed to be flexible on the table. They should press the enemies weakness at all times. If you refuse to play them with that same flexibility that they're designed for, you're not playing the army to the best of it's ability - and limiting your tactical options - all at once.

Like I said, if you want a "shooting" army, there are many out there. If you play Marines like parking-lot Guard, you're doing it wrong. And I have to question just how competitive your gaming circle is, if it's working for you.

I second this.

Static Marines get stomped in my shop, because we have several tourney gamers, and WAAC types. It really only works for Grey Knights, because well, they're broken. :p

Bartali
12-01-2012, 08:13
C:SM is a Swiss army-knife of options, as it should be.


You're thinking of the fluff again. Tacticals for instance in the fluff are the pinnacle (besides first company) of Marinedom, marines who've come through Scout, Devestator and Assault squads who can handle themselves in most situations.

In reality they're solid midfiled anti-infantry shooting

Techmarine
12-01-2012, 10:09
You're thinking of the fluff again. Tacticals for instance in the fluff are the pinnacle (besides first company) of Marinedom, marines who've come through Scout, Devestator and Assault squads who can handle themselves in most situations.

In reality they're solid midfiled anti-infantry shooting

Again, I think you're mistaken - but we'll just agree to disagree I suppose.