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LordKhaine
07-01-2012, 20:59
So i have just started to collect a bretonnian army, mainly just for the look that I am going for with them.

however, i keep hearing people say that they are rubbish in the new rules and lance formation doesnt work no more etc etc


but to be honest. i didnt find anywhere that says you have to use lance formation, so if you use them like normal knights they are still pretty powerful, and with the prayer giving them all ward saves against shooting, sounds pretty nifty to me

i just want to know what are peoples feelings with them in the new edition of the game, do they still make a formidable army, or is it something i should of looked out for before i started collecting them?




LordKhaine

hashrat
07-01-2012, 21:10
You don't have to use the lance, but I cannot see why not. 3 models for a rank, maximized attacks, the lenghty flanks need protecting, but everything has a downside.

Bretonnia will compete well on every scenario, that doesn't involve taking a castle, or a tower, that is because M@A arent much use.

But they can compete, if buffed.

As for Bretonnia being rubbish, people read that and repeat it like parrots, it simply isnt true, they are fast, resilient, manoueverable, have access to HKB and excellent stone throwers in the Trebuchet, with the exception of Questing knights they have excellent cavalry, but without magic, they need to win on the charge, because S3 gets you bogged down quickly.

They are fine, look great, are fun to paint and very competative, if you learn how to use them.

Lantern
07-01-2012, 21:45
I'd have to argue with questing knights being labeled as poor. In all my games, they have been my most dependable unit, especially with the Valorous Standard, which makes them cold blooded (effectively) by rolling 3d6 for thier leadership tests (including break tests) and discarding the highest roll. Miles cheaper than Grail Knights, they tend to hold my army together, and with most of my opponents having a higher initiative than me, the bonus +2 strength from striking last is a god-send (sorry, that should be Lady-send).
That said, I love my Bretonnians. They have access to the cheapest heavy cavalry in the game with Knights Errant, thier standard troops have a leadership of 8 (which gets passed onto thier sub-standard infantry within 6 inches, making them far better than points cost implies), Pegasus Knights, with thier 2 wound, toughness 4, 3+ save, 5 or 6 ward (with vanguard move at the start of the game), Grail Knights with thier 2 magical, strength 4 (6 on charge) attacks, and some of the most customisable characters in the game......really, anyone who thinks that Bretonnians are below par have obviously not played against the more experienced generals that I feel Bretonnians reward.


Oh, and Lance Formation Rules!!! :)

Lord Zarkov
07-01-2012, 22:01
Lance Formation is great.

Reduces enemies attacks back, adds SCR, and can even break steadfast (you need min 25 models in 5x5 to be steadfast vs 12 KOTR in lance)

Duke Ramulots
07-01-2012, 22:56
The ward save is not only against shooting attacks, that was a very old version of the blessing.

Magnusv
07-01-2012, 23:04
Bretonnia plays uphill. I have played them for 15+ years and continue to do so today. Can a good General win with them consistently? Absolutely, but they have to be on their A game as other armies allow Par and Sub-Par Generals the advantage with Magic and just variety. I openly admit I suffer from Book envy. Its like I have been driving my reliable Chevy Cavalier and my friend has been Drive his Ford Explorer for years and when the company recalls his vehicle for some reason he gets a loaded Ford and everyone tells me my Cavalier is just fine as is.

Great looking, hard hitting, and very fluffy Brets are great if your prepared for a challenge.

thesheriff
07-01-2012, 23:38
Large lance formations (12-15) have the ability to break steadfast, and get a bunch of attack. Something that regular cav. cant do. 15 Knights at S5 (possibly 6 w. errant knights) with 13 attacks or more is pretty decent when the enemy will get a fraction of what they would normally get back.

Men-at-Arms are let down by there Ws2, which is very annoying as Ws5 is quite abundant in some armies. Having said that, they then are just Ws2 halberdiers, which is pretty good for 5pts still. Can't have a warrior priest, but can in big enough units provide decent tarp it's to hold units in place for knight counter charges.

They have some nice charecters with good combat builds. Cheap too. And damsels can take IMO two of the best lies in the game to buff both units and chatecters. Which is nice.

Trebuchets are mint, always take 2 unless you want to play friendly. And peasant bowmen can all have flaming attacks, and are really cheap!

I think there is a stigma that cavalry are ****. And in the current edition, having a unit that just break other units anymore is a HUGE downside. But brets, having lance formation, suffer dr this alot less, combined with the other components I have mentioned, can and do do well.

I think the key to there tactics comes from two styles;
Pin 'n' win - Secure units with steadfast blocks of peasants, then move 1-2 units of knights in for the kill. Robbing the enemy of numerical advantages and steadfast should carry you through
Multiple charge - Multiple units of Lance knights going in together, in lance for decent attacks, again removing steadfast and overwhelming the enemy.

I personally don't think that questing knights follow this plan, as there great weapons don't are redundant as both plans revolve around the knights only being in combat for one round. Errant knights with the errant banner, men at arms, KotR, Grail knights, flaming bowmen, dual Treb, and lots of charecters is a recipe for success IMO!

thesheriff

Duke Ramulots
08-01-2012, 00:51
Bretonnia plays uphill. I have played them for 15+ years and continue to do so today. Can a good General win with them consistently? Absolutely, but they have to be on their A game as other armies allow Par and Sub-Par Generals the advantage with Magic and just variety. I openly admit I suffer from Book envy. Its like I have been driving my reliable Chevy Cavalier and my friend has been Drive his Ford Explorer for years and when the company recalls his vehicle for some reason he gets a loaded Ford and everyone tells me my Cavalier is just fine as is.

Great looking, hard hitting, and very fluffy Brets are great if your prepared for a challenge.

I dont fully agree here, while they are a finness army that have a learning curve, as soon as you learn how to play them it's pretty hard to loose.

Ratbeast
08-01-2012, 01:05
lore of life, toughness 7 knights, 2 plus save and blessing, bring them back from the dead, makes them extremely hard to kill.......

Demoulius
08-01-2012, 01:38
Men at arms are WS2? :confused:

Add a character with shrieking blade. Your opponet fails his fear test your men at arms are hitting 3's! Not a bad upgrade for 10 points eh? :evilgrin: Then again that goes for everything else suffering from fear, and if your troops have WS3 or higher your opponent is hitting YOU on 5's instead of on 4's like the men at arms would be :shifty: a unit NEEDING a character to perform well is a poor one imho...

That said I dont know the bretonnia army book... At all! Are men at arms the only core choice Bretonnia have? :confused:

Duke Ramulots
08-01-2012, 02:18
That said I dont know the bretonnia army book... At all! Are men at arms the only core choice Bretonnia have? :confused:

Far from it, we have Knights of the realm, archers, knight errant, and the lowly men at arms as our core.

dodicula
08-01-2012, 02:18
Even big lances are not able to break steadfast on large units of anywhere near the knights point size, that is silly. Take 15 Kotr vs a near equivelant unit of 50 halberdiers (300+ points vs 250+ points) say horde for the halberdiers to make it easier. Math hammer says:
13 attacks->8 hits->7 wounds=7 dead. 12 horses=6 hits (we'll assume they fail 6+) so 3 wounds. 10 Halberdiers dead.
15 counter attacks on s4=7.5 hits=6 wounds= 2 dead brets. halberdiers eventually grind the brets down and win!

The only chance bretonnians have in 8th is to harass the smaller units (if there are any) until they can get a double charge off.

Duke Ramulots
08-01-2012, 02:48
all of that hinges on the halberdiers making their Ld7 after that first turn. If its a real battle and not in a vacume the trebs will tear that unit to shreds and the archers will finish it off while the knights destroy the "hard" targets avoiding the tarpits with their movement.

sneakydust
08-01-2012, 03:34
What's the best way to deal with KOTR units??

I play dark elves and my friend plays brets.. While I am still able to beat him I haven't been able to ever get rid of his KOTR units entirely lol

Demoulius
08-01-2012, 03:36
What's the best way to deal with KOTR units??

I play dark elves and my friend plays brets.. While I am still able to beat him I haven't been able to ever get rid of his KOTR units entirely lol

Oh why thats easy! You just magic them away!

Like so -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22Tj_l4PcPs

thesheriff
08-01-2012, 10:02
Even big lances are not able to break steadfast on large units of anywhere near the knights point size, that is silly. Take 15 Kotr vs a near equivelant unit of 50 halberdiers (300+ points vs 250+ points) say horde for the halberdiers to make it easier. Math hammer says:
13 attacks->8 hits->7 wounds=7 dead. 12 horses=6 hits (we'll assume they fail 6+) so 3 wounds. 10 Halberdiers dead.
15 counter attacks on s4=7.5 hits=6 wounds= 2 dead brets. halberdiers eventually grind the brets down and win!

The only chance bretonnians have in 8th is to harass the smaller units (if there are any) until they can get a double charge off.

In that first combat, halberdiers lose by 9, and as I have as many ranks as him (assuming horde), the halberdiers are not steadfast and they flee (assuming there is no warrior priest for unbreakable, which I would really try and dispel :D)

I then (being cavalry) overrun and kill them. Jobs a good 'un!

Commissar Vaughn
08-01-2012, 11:12
Dont see where the Lance formation being weak comes from: Its not weak it just looks stupid! Though thats the only reason I don't use it with my Bretonnians...

Magnusv
08-01-2012, 16:18
Thats like saying I don't drive my Lamborghini cause I hate the doors.

decker_cky
09-01-2012, 04:00
Even big lances are not able to break steadfast on large units of anywhere near the knights point size, that is silly.

The silly part is considering knights in a game of matching points. The lance is designed to apply 4 times the points to any battles - that's why they have MV8, swiftstride and a small frontage (2 lances into certain units could be necessary). There's no award for only going to battle with the same amount of points. The trick is to plan ahead for where your units will be and for favourable overruns.

Ratbeast
15-01-2012, 04:37
Whos cares about winning, having a bret army painted up like the knights templer, red/white, would be well worth the constant losses, really should start painting mine up lol

russellmoo
15-01-2012, 05:37
Bret's are all about the learning curve- you will lose most of your games when you start playing- then one day it will all click and you will win 90% of the time-

Once you master how to get the most out of the lance and your crappy foot troops you will win battles in spite of being ridiculously outnumbered or in other way being out classed by whatever you are fighting against-

Snake1311
15-01-2012, 19:40
Bret's are all about the learning curve- you will lose most of your games when you start playing- then one day it will all click and you will win 90% of the time-


Actually, its kinda the other way round. Brets are very, very punishing to play against due to the way the lance works (decent damage/very hardy, lost of ranks - so both wins combat and denies steadfast) and their speed and mobility. So you are probably going to be steamrolling your opponents until they learn not to derp, and then games will even out.

The drawback of lance formation is that its long, which kicks in on two important occasions: the little one is when you are deploying and there is terrain in the way, and the big one is when you are overruning units you've broken, because with a 10" long unit you might not leave other unit's LoS and can get countercharged. But yeah, its not really a drawback - if it was, bret players would deploy 5 wide, and I don't think I've ever seen that.

EvanDynamic
15-01-2012, 21:06
The world needs more Bret players. Go for it. Who knows. You buy enough models and maybe GW will give you guys a new book. I'll keep my circus freakshow greenskin horde where each unit is more gibbering and random than the last though. The one dimensional appearance and constrained list/gameplan options for the Brets are off putting for me.

Wesser
15-01-2012, 21:15
Brets have 2 problems only.

Taking buildings is one (so watchtower sucks balls)

And second... brets are the easiest army to simply counter because it doesnt have that many tricks to play. Those who do well competitively usually run gimmick armies with 2 trebuchets and lances where the front rank is taken up entirely by characters.

Another problem is that damsels are difficult to protect. Putting them in knights units is just asking to have the unit decimated by misscast and putting them with peasants leaves them very vulnerable although a deep MAA unit with a damsel with Prayer Icon can do stuff.

If you play Brets then only play gentlemen. Most armies out there can easily design lists that brets simply cannot beat. Brets cant do the same

Lance Tankmen
15-01-2012, 21:20
i play bretonnians with my small group of friends, i just love medieval knights, and i work at taco bell so their colors are taco bell colors... as for lance formation, when i get 11 attacks from the knights and 10 attacks from the horses, our Dark elf player complains saying i must of read it wrong as it seems Over powered...3X4 KotR. Then hes sitting there with a 5X5 corsair with two hand weapons and a frenzy banner packing 25+ attacks with close to the same cost, and mind razors them.... yeah my knights are broken :rolleyes:

LordKhaine
23-01-2012, 10:37
Whos cares about winning, having a bret army painted up like the knights templer, red/white, would be well worth the constant losses, really should start painting mine up lol

haha, im doing them as Teautonic (white with black crosses) because loads of people do Templars


and thanks everyone for convincing me that they are worth while, al have to get them built and try out a game and let you all know, even though the armies i will proberbly be facing is either Undead or Ogres :(

Artinam
23-01-2012, 10:53
Check the Roundtable of Bretonnia fansite, they have some good articles on how to play Bretonnian effectively in 8th edition (written by a very competent tournament players).
here (bretonnia.org)

Andy p
23-01-2012, 11:19
I see brets as being pretty solid, although I would like them to get a new book.

On the other hand, last time I played against my friend with my O&G's; my level 4 great orc shaman cast the big version of Foot of Gork and I ended up killing his main unit down to the characters...the two of them, with repeated stomps.

I actually felt really bad about it, but he was a good sport.

Besides this week he nearly got me, my trolls vomited his errant's down to goo, it's true, but my main block of orcs was being ground to dust by his main KOTR unit with characters, plus my squig unit was in dire straits after a bash with some Wildform MAA's, although the intervention of my giant saved them.

Fortunately for me, the trolls saved the day, charging the KOTR's rear.

DragonArmy
23-01-2012, 11:39
Large lance formations (12-15) have the ability to break steadfast, and get a bunch of attack. Something that regular cav. cant do. 15 Knights at S5 (possibly 6 w. errant knights) with 13 attacks or more is pretty decent when the enemy will get a fraction of what they would normally get back.

Men-at-Arms are let down by there Ws2, which is very annoying as Ws5 is quite abundant in some armies. Having said that, they then are just Ws2 halberdiers, which is pretty good for 5pts still. Can't have a warrior priest, but can in big enough units provide decent tarp it's to hold units in place for knight counter charges.

They have some nice charecters with good combat builds. Cheap too. And damsels can take IMO two of the best lies in the game to buff both units and chatecters. Which is nice.

Trebuchets are mint, always take 2 unless you want to play friendly. And peasant bowmen can all have flaming attacks, and are really cheap!

I think there is a stigma that cavalry are ****. And in the current edition, having a unit that just break other units anymore is a HUGE downside. But brets, having lance formation, suffer dr this alot less, combined with the other components I have mentioned, can and do do well.

I think the key to there tactics comes from two styles;
Pin 'n' win - Secure units with steadfast blocks of peasants, then move 1-2 units of knights in for the kill. Robbing the enemy of numerical advantages and steadfast should carry you through
Multiple charge - Multiple units of Lance knights going in together, in lance for decent attacks, again removing steadfast and overwhelming the enemy.

I personally don't think that questing knights follow this plan, as there great weapons don't are redundant as both plans revolve around the knights only being in combat for one round. Errant knights with the errant banner, men at arms, KotR, Grail knights, flaming bowmen, dual Treb, and lots of charecters is a recipe for success IMO!

thesheriff

this is a great analysis and below is the correct counter


Brets have 2 problems only.

Taking buildings is one (so watchtower sucks balls)

And second... brets are the easiest army to simply counter because it doesnt have that many tricks to play. Those who do well competitively usually run gimmick armies with 2 trebuchets and lances where the front rank is taken up entirely by characters.

Another problem is that damsels are difficult to protect. Putting them in knights units is just asking to have the unit decimated by misscast and putting them with peasants leaves them very vulnerable although a deep MAA unit with a damsel with Prayer Icon can do stuff.

If you play Brets then only play gentlemen. Most armies out there can easily design lists that brets simply cannot beat. Brets cant do the same

Could not agree more.

Duke Ramulots
23-01-2012, 16:34
The world needs more Bret players. Go for it. Who knows. You buy enough models and maybe GW will give you guys a new book. I'll keep my circus freakshow greenskin horde where each unit is more gibbering and random than the last though. The one dimensional appearance and constrained list/gameplan options for the Brets are off putting for me.

That is why I like having my brets and my Orcs and Goblins, these two armies are like playing an entilrely different game.

abdulaapocolyps
23-01-2012, 21:41
Hi guys,I don't play Brets but just thought is feed the troll on this thread.
I consistently win against people with 'better'lists than mine when they come with the net mentality of 'all my units are really killy!' Saying that a single unit of fast,heavy and hard hitting cav loses vs a massive grinding tar pit,and that being the end of that,suggests you play like a pre schooler

Lantern
23-01-2012, 22:00
Can I ask, who do you play as? What constitutes a better list?

Malark
24-01-2012, 06:45
Even big lances are not able to break steadfast on large units of anywhere near the knights point size, that is silly. Take 15 Kotr vs a near equivelant unit of 50 halberdiers (300+ points vs 250+ points) say horde for the halberdiers to make it easier. Math hammer says:
13 attacks->8 hits->7 wounds=7 dead. 12 horses=6 hits (we'll assume they fail 6+) so 3 wounds. 10 Halberdiers dead.
15 counter attacks on s4=7.5 hits=6 wounds= 2 dead brets. halberdiers eventually grind the brets down and win!

The only chance bretonnians have in 8th is to harass the smaller units (if there are any) until they can get a double charge off.

You are leaving 2 key factors of your equation:

a) At its current state, Bretonnia is an army that is characterized for being unable to rely on one unit alone to win a combat. That horde of halberdiers is surely going to be weakened by missile fire from bowmen and or treb before close combat ensues or your halbediers will be hit by multiple charges (any bret general worth its salt knows this).

b)Characters - Brets will most likely have a front rank filled with characters. A simple lord with lance, shield and Virtue of the Knightly Temper could devastate your horde, since that virtue excels at decimating T3 troops like halberdiers (he could even cause more damage if buffed with Savage Beast of Horros). Take into account the main bus/lance could hit with a lord and a BsB paladin typically geared with Virtue of Duty (that gets the bret player +2 static combat resolution).

Taking into account these things, do you still think the halberdiers would win?

Wesser
24-01-2012, 09:12
You are leaving 2 key factors of your equation:

a) At its current state, Bretonnia is an army that is characterized for being unable to rely on one unit alone to win a combat. That horde of halberdiers is surely going to be weakened by missile fire from bowmen and or treb before close combat ensues or your halbediers will be hit by multiple charges (any bret general worth its salt knows this).

b)Characters - Brets will most likely have a front rank filled with characters. A simple lord with lance, shield and Virtue of the Knightly Temper could devastate your horde, since that virtue excels at decimating T3 troops like halberdiers (he could even cause more damage if buffed with Savage Beast of Horros). Take into account the main bus/lance could hit with a lord and a BsB paladin typically geared with Virtue of Duty (that gets the bret player +2 static combat resolution).

Taking into account these things, do you still think the halberdiers would win?

Well on the other hand.

1. Empire cannons, handguns and helblasters may well put the pain on your knights, who loses combat effectively with every knight dying.

2. The Halberdiers can reform to 5-wide and 10 deep. With bsb and general nearby they wont be going anywhere

3. The bret unit of characters you describe is massively more expensive than the halberdiers. For the same cost the Empire player can use on unit to soak your charge as described under 2) then have 2!! other units ready to smash into the flank of the stranded lance.... brets lose.

Did you take those factors into account? Brets can only rly shine against elite armies. Against Skaven and Goblins brets have a terrible track record overall

R Man
24-01-2012, 09:32
Well on the other hand.

1. Empire cannons, handguns and helblasters may well put the pain on your knights, who loses combat effectively with every knight dying.

2. The Halberdiers can reform to 5-wide and 10 deep. With bsb and general nearby they wont be going anywhere

3. The bret unit of characters you describe is massively more expensive than the halberdiers. For the same cost the Empire player can use on unit to soak your charge as described under 2) then have 2!! other units ready to smash into the flank of the stranded lance.... brets lose.

Did you take those factors into account? Brets can only rly shine against elite armies. Against Skaven and Goblins brets have a terrible track record overall

In all honesty, for equal points, a head to head combat between and infantry unit and a cavalry unit should be won by the Infantry unit. After all cavalry do pay points to move further and pursue and flee for greater distances that are not taken into account in these direct head to head scenario's.

Urgat
24-01-2012, 10:20
I'll chime in to comment on one ridiculously overlooked unit in the Brets book: their archers. They're absurdly good, especially with braziers. One of my regular opponents loads up on them, and they are horrendous to deal with. They really cover a lot of the weak points in the list, and I just can't figure out why the so-called "internet wisdom" hasn't caught on their usefulness.

Jerry
24-01-2012, 10:36
Well on the other hand.

1. Empire cannons, handguns and helblasters may well put the pain on your knights, who loses combat effectively with every knight dying.

2. The Halberdiers can reform to 5-wide and 10 deep. With bsb and general nearby they wont be going anywhere

3. The bret unit of characters you describe is massively more expensive than the halberdiers. For the same cost the Empire player can use on unit to soak your charge as described under 2) then have 2!! other units ready to smash into the flank of the stranded lance.... brets lose.

Did you take those factors into account? Brets can only rly shine against elite armies. Against Skaven and Goblins brets have a terrible track record overall

It seems as though you are trying to say or at least hint that the Empire is vastly superior to Bretonnia in a very 2 dimensional and ridiculous manner. Firstly no one would single-charge such a large unit so willy-nilly and pray to sigmar you don't come across a lone gauntlet-tarpit paladin. Also a bret unit of characters is very durable, even more so if kitted out for survivability even being flank charged will not result in any immediate break. Any loss of wounds will be hard fought for due to their durability and easily counter weighted by the piles of halberdiers even after the first round of combat.
Secondly against Skaven and Goblins where are you getting your information from because against Skavens and Goblins brets have no trouble sitting in prolonged combat neither army has particularly strong magic and are easily beaten in combat. I.E against skaven HKB is more than enough to scare your opponent into conservatively using their doomwheel/bell. I think what you're trying to say is that Bretonnians struggle against large hordes which is somewhat true but Skaven and Goblins are not good examples. The hordes Brettonians would struggle against would be things like large blocks of hard hitting units such as marauders, warriors of chaos, bloodletters etc.
Brets don't struggle against other armies because they are unable to deal with certain game mechanics ie steadfast, they struggle against the same top tier armies as everyone else ie Dark Elves & Daemons. :evilgrin:

blackseven
24-01-2012, 10:48
I'll chime in to comment on one ridiculously overlooked unit in the Brets book: their archers. They're absurdly good, especially with braziers. One of my regular opponents loads up on them, and they are horrendous to deal with. They really cover a lot of the weak points in the list, and I just can't figure out why the so-called "internet wisdom" hasn't caught on their usefulness.

I think a lot of people do know that bowmen are great, but I share your surprise that many people don't. I recently saw a wishlisting thread that asked for bowmen to be made cheaper - a sure sign that they don't get it.

Wesser
24-01-2012, 14:56
I'll chime in to comment on one ridiculously overlooked unit in the Brets book: their archers. They're absurdly good, especially with braziers. One of my regular opponents loads up on them, and they are horrendous to deal with. They really cover a lot of the weak points in the list, and I just can't figure out why the so-called "internet wisdom" hasn't caught on their usefulness.

Bowmen are indeed ace for their points, but with BS 3 and Str 3 they're hardly overpowered. At long range a unit of 40 will only inflict 5 wounds on T3 enemies before saves...and assuming no other modifiers. Hardly horrendous. Also they can only be magically buffed if you include a prophetess with heavens magic.

Small units can be useful for dealing with units like dire wolves, while big units can be used like the Empire Helblasters. As a control zone where the enemy dont wanna go. Deployed as a horde with stakes and a banner as far forward as possible they are useful for guarding a flank as the enemy will want to avoid going into that short range...

Cheap maybe. Useful certainly. But they arent killy enough to win you battles.

lurker1
25-01-2012, 03:02
I'll chime in to comment on one ridiculously overlooked unit in the Brets book: their archers. They're absurdly good, especially with braziers. One of my regular opponents loads up on them, and they are horrendous to deal with. They really cover a lot of the weak points in the list, and I just can't figure out why the so-called "internet wisdom" hasn't caught on their usefulness.

I agree with this. Somehow brets have evolved into a ranged army with some knightly units. It's really the archers and more importantly the trebuchets who win the game for you. If you get a couple of good hits then your knights will break the steadfast opponent. If not they will bounce.

Artinam
25-01-2012, 09:01
Aye Brets play a lot more with a combined arms approach. You need the infantry and/or the shooting to weaken the enemy so your Knights can charge in and finish the job.

A bit improvement of the point and click tactic style from 7th edition (which was countered immediatly with the appearance of Daemons and new Vampire Counts).

meltedwing
29-01-2012, 06:01
I play Bretonnians and I absolutely adore them. I definitely think they are due for an update, but they really don't need that much. I think the biggest drawback to a Bret army is the fact that the knights being toughness 3 means they will take a lot of armor tests. Now granted they have a 2+ armor save, but it only takes a little creativity on the part of a high elf / dark elf player to use their books very effectively. For instance, 14 cold one knights with a bsb (3 ranks of 5) , banner of extra attack and banner of always strike first. Suddenly our knights die like ants.

The person who said earlier that Bretonnians heavily rely on a combined arms approach was correct. To win with the current army book you really need to use tactics wisely and don't ignore any part of your army. Each piece has a purpose.

Urgat
29-01-2012, 18:53
Bowmen are indeed ace for their points, but with BS 3 and Str 3 they're hardly overpowered. At long range a unit of 40 will only inflict 5 wounds on T3 enemies before saves...and assuming no other modifiers. Hardly horrendous. Also they can only be magically buffed if you include a prophetess with heavens magic.

Small units can be useful for dealing with units like dire wolves, while big units can be used like the Empire Helblasters. As a control zone where the enemy dont wanna go. Deployed as a horde with stakes and a banner as far forward as possible they are useful for guarding a flank as the enemy will want to avoid going into that short range...

Cheap maybe. Useful certainly. But they arent killy enough to win you battles.

I didn't mean they were overpowered, I say they're a right pain in your ass to deal with. They're just right imho. I didn't say they were going to win you games on their own either, I said they covered everything knights and MaA didn't. And as a bonus, I mean, ranged fire that cancels regen? Who doesn't want that?

hertz
14-02-2012, 17:40
Are skirmish on the one regiment of bowmen still worth it? before, you could have a gigantic blob of 360 arc of sight, where everyone could shoot, but how does that work in the current meta-game?

SunTzu
14-02-2012, 18:00
Taking into account these things, do you still think the halberdiers would win?

Yes.

In order to defeat one 50-strong unit of Halberdiers (who would have to be commanded by a retard to be in a horde formation for the sake of an extra 5-10 WS3 attacks against a unit with a 2+ save, when in a 5-wide 10-deep formation you'll need to kill at least 26 of them to break steadfast) costing approx 300 points, you've just invoked a full-strength unit of Knights, a missile unit, a war machine, a spell, and three characters that they will "likely have" in the unit!

I'm pretty sure that with the extra points the other player will have leftover they can rustle up both a nearby BSB to make them more likely to stand, and a threat of their own. When an elite unit in the army supported by war machines and characters has got a questionable/debatable chance of beating even an average unit in an average list, it's reasonable to suppose that the army is going to struggle in general. As is the case IME.

Duke Ramulots
14-02-2012, 23:21
@Suntzu, why would the Bret player A) charge that block in the front, B) single charge it, or C) not kill them with treb shots and archers?

I understand there are counters to counters, but in the game of Rock(infantry) Paper(artillery/mega spells), Scissors(cavalry), why would you try and take rock with scissors?

SunTzu
15-02-2012, 10:46
@Duke, because (A) if you go into a game presuming your opponent is going to conveniently expose the flanks of his units then your battle plan is based purely on hope, (B) because we've already assigned a full-strength Knight unit, 3 characters, a spell, a war machine, and units of archers to take out a single 300 point ordinary enemy unit - you want another Knight unit as well? Fine, have it, but you're still trying to take out ONE 300 POINT ORDINARY UNIT and (C) they can, that's already included in the assessment, someone already said that large units would obviously be softened up by ranged attacks first (though presumably we're expected to suppose that nobody fires ranged attacks at those ranged attacks...?).

Look, ultimately, only playing a game (or to be more accurate, playing lots of games) is going to really show it "for real"... theoretical analyses can only go so far, and there's always an (increasingly unlikely) "yes, but what if..." response. But the strength of the Bretonnian army is its Knights - trebs are OK but other armies have more and better war machines, archers are OK but they're not exactly unique in Warhammer, are they - and when the counter to the strength of its Knights is so trivially easy (rank up deep to gain the benefits of streadfast), how much of a strength can it really be?

The whole discussion goes like this: Knights are good at charging. Yes, but it's trivial to stop them with Steadfast. Yes, but I can throw my entire army at this one unit to circumvent Steadfast. Yes, but what's the enemy going to be doing with the rest of his army in the meantime...? Now obviously, the only answer to that is found on the tabletop, but it ought to be clear just from that very simple discussion that the Knightly charge is relatively simple to stop even with ordinary units, and that's a massive disadvantage. It's not insurmountable, of course Bretonnians can win, and needing to play as a combined arms force is one of the reasons I like them; but if the best Bret units need all that help just to defeat one ordinary enemy unit, how can anyone possibly pretend they're not at a disadvantage? I'm not saying Brets are useless or incapable of winning - I am saying they're bottom tier IMO.

Manling
15-02-2012, 20:19
^^^

A triple charge lance on that horde usually means it breaks and when it breaks your lines and warmachines become vulnerable and now you have to spnd time reacting to the bret player while the brets pick off your warmachines and weak infantry. The brets Have mobility and can kill more efficiently than your horde. BTW ill take the 300 point horde for Victory points and the Cannons and yor volley gun AND any units of handgunners. and when im done sodomizing your shooting base ill be sure to come back for your foot troops.

Mathhammer seems to be your strongsuit so let me know when you start playing Warhammer its a fun game you should play

SunTzu
15-02-2012, 21:35
So any attempt to analyse the likely strengths and weaknesses of an army gets dismissed as "Mathhammer not Warhammer"... in the same post as a (very poor, based on pure conjecture and willy-waving) attempt to analyse the likely strengths and weaknesses of an army?

Well, that's me told.

Manling
15-02-2012, 22:59
^^^ Yeah pretty much because mathhammer isn't the best thing when it comes to actual play time.

you can say "oh well i have a horde of arbitrary guys vs your knights i win because i has can do more with horde."

Your math is almost spot on but the difference between theory and practice in this case is the game board and the fact is that hordes dont scare me as a Bretonia player because while you may bring more footmen i get more for my Bang for my buck. I have had no end to the number of people say Cavalry is dead in 8th. And usually i end up raping them becuase they dont expect me to do what even you have failed to account for in your mathhammer equation. which is a Triple or even quad charge with my knights, and because no one expects that i usually end up winning.

The point of this is to tell you to not put soo much stock in the Theory of warhammer because the theory of the game doesnt often match the reality of the game. Becuase in theory Bretonnians should lose almost evey game they play by your logic and they simply do not.

Also, Its thats what your post told me. English is an important skill brah.

Phazael
15-02-2012, 23:11
I played them on the tournament circut for a full year and did well with them, pretty much going 4-1 at every event I went to. They are pretty much an MSU combined arms force, as others have described. The key elements every army need, in my view, are a descent sized Peg Knight unit, at least one Trebuchette, and a L4 Heavens caster. The rest of the army should be a mix of peasant archers and sizable lances. The key to using the army is pressing the enemy where they are weakest and making your run on the enemy late in the game. Its much more competitive than most people think, just not the 3-4 lance steamroller list it was at its heights in 6th edition.

Duke Ramulots
15-02-2012, 23:26
@SunTzu, as others have said, its all about maneuverability as the general who can bring his weapons to bare is the one that will win. That and I always use the baner of chalons in one of my lances to deal with all the pesky handgunners, quarlers, archers, and the like.

Also, when you do get to playing warhammer with all the rules like terrain and such you'll notice that those hordes are more trouble for you than they are for the opponent.

samw
16-02-2012, 05:23
Are skirmish on the one regiment of bowmen still worth it? before, you could have a gigantic blob of 360 arc of sight, where everyone could shoot, but how does that work in the current meta-game?

It doesn't. Stakes now count as fences giving you soft cover and -1 to be hit by chargers. Skirmishers took such a whack this edition the upgrade is no longer worth it. Errata should have allowed an upgrade to scouts IMHO.

arthurfallz
16-02-2012, 18:57
I'm going to back up the frustration that my Knights just can't hit units hard enough in this edition. And they're really, really expensive. Now, after turn 1 (where I usually win CR) I will do a reform to bring my Knights up to maximum frontage (since my Lance formation isn't working after turn one), but the fact remains that long bus of Knights is itching for flank charges. And since the Brets have no way to lure an opponent forward save by very inaccurate Trebs (which are trivial to destroy with some scouts.... trust me :( ), you have to charge out there and crash into them hard, and fast.

They just need some fine tuning and they would be great. Right now Steadfast really hurts them, as does Step-Up.

RugbySkin
17-02-2012, 04:49
Rubbish. That's why they killed my Archmage, His Phoenix Guard, a Dragon Mage, His dragon and a block of Sea Guard on one turn. Cause they're rubbish. Thaaaaat's right. Admittedly, killing all 8 of his Grail Knights when they charged another block of SG made me a little happier, but then I realized they were one of 2 units left and I gladly called it there.