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Demoulius
08-01-2012, 02:55
Hello all!

Im painting my greatswords currently and something is abit unclear to me...

First of all, those swords of some sort of leathery....thing (or rather im assuming its supposed to be leather..) on their weapons added a picture (taken from the GW website) to show you what I mean...

Basicly a part of their weapon is covered by a leather strap.... For what end is that? :confused:

And secondly, why do they have full plate armour? Their body is far from completly covered in armour (like knights) and other armies have units who ARE completly covered (like some dwarf and high elf units like swordmasters for example) yet they only have heavy armour...

Is this just a balancing thing or did GW suddenly dont understand what full plate meant anymore? :confused:

Shouldnt full plate look like the 2nd attached picture (or like the other empire unit wearing it, knights? :shifty:)

Kalandros
08-01-2012, 02:59
What part of Fantasy did you not understand?
How am I to compare my Daemons or Greenskins to a real-life thing?

Do the same for the humans and whatnot..
If you have a doubt about the models, don't buy them - get them from another company - convert them, etc

reikhardt
08-01-2012, 03:07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG6sP3aezco

I believe this video should answer your first question ;)

Duke Ramulots
08-01-2012, 03:08
The only problem with empire greatswords having dwarven 4+ armor that isnt gromril, is that somehow dwarfs cannot seem to make as good of armor for themselves.

Demoulius
08-01-2012, 03:17
What part of Fantasy did you not understand?
How am I to compare my Daemons or Greenskins to a real-life thing?

Do the same for the humans and whatnot..
If you have a doubt about the models, don't buy them - get them from another company - convert them, etc

If your going to troll someone at least bother to read their post.... Im not complaining about anything. Im asking a question about something thats copied from a real world weapon for a change. Ive seen those things attached to swords in museums before.... Jackass.

Thanks reikhardt for that video! So basicly its to stop the swords from slicing through the fleshy shoulder :D that makes alot of sense actually.....

And yea thats exactly what im talking about Duke Ramulots... Must be a balancing thing then *shrugs*

Tuttivillus
08-01-2012, 09:12
Actually new models armour don't makes thing right. I do have a perry greatswords (6th ed. metal) Where they are all covered in plate exept for right leg and arm, which is fairly realistic if u look for landsknecht's historical equipment. It's because when they fought with greatweapons in formation only left side was presented to the enemy, and less armour allowed them to stand up, when they fell down (full plated knights just couldn't do that.).

bildo
08-01-2012, 09:22
the leather is for practical carrying reasons, normal swords are often balanced close to the hilt, but that cant be done with great swords, and as the natural grease your skin produces actually causes blades to rust over time, the leather allowed for the blade to be carried closer to the balance point without allowing you to touch the blade itself. it isnt a hiderence as there is no force being applied against the enemy at that point, its too close to the hilt. all the damage is at the far, pointy, business end of the sword.

Miredorf
08-01-2012, 09:49
Hi, ive seen guys in videos doing ''mortal'' jumps with full plate, while other say they couldnt stand up if fell down. Which is the truth about full plate then?

Feorag
08-01-2012, 09:56
You can stand up in full plate that fits you without a problem even if you were on your back http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WmFvQAEelM the chest plate in this is Brigandine, the problem starts when the arm/leg armour is either too big or too short and you cannot get the proper movement range to stand up easily.

Spiney Norman
08-01-2012, 09:59
Hello all!

Im painting my greatswords currently and something is abit unclear to me...

First of all, those swords of some sort of leathery....thing (or rather im assuming its supposed to be leather..) on their weapons added a picture (taken from the GW website) to show you what I mean...

Basicly a part of their weapon is covered by a leather strap.... For what end is that? :confused:

And secondly, why do they have full plate armour? Their body is far from completly covered in armour (like knights) and other armies have units who ARE completly covered (like some dwarf and high elf units like swordmasters for example) yet they only have heavy armour...

Is this just a balancing thing or did GW suddenly dont understand what full plate meant anymore? :confused:

Shouldnt full plate look like the 2nd attached picture (or like the other empire unit wearing it, knights? :shifty:)

As I understand plate armour its not that it covers more of the body per se, but it also offers a greater degree of protection for the areas it does cover. Whatsmore plate armour is not just the outer metal plates stuck over the soldiers clothing, underneath the plates there would be a chain mail shirt/coif, and under than a leather jerkin/cap. Plate mail concentrated in vulnerable areas would almost certainly offer more protection than head-to-foot chain mail.

Melchor
08-01-2012, 10:02
Contrary to popular belief, full plate does not render you immobile. Otherwise it'd be more of a hindrance than a help.
The leather in the sword is for halfsword techniques. it allows you to grip the sword in two hands with one hand closer to the point. This allows you to stab with greater accuracy which is quite handy agains armoured opponents.

Nautyboy
08-01-2012, 10:09
Actually new models armour don't makes thing right. I do have a perry greatswords (6th ed. metal) Where they are all covered in plate exept for right leg and arm, which is fairly realistic if u look for landsknecht's historical equipment. It's because when they fought with greatweapons in formation only left side was presented to the enemy, and less armour allowed them to stand up, when they fell down (full plated knights just couldn't do that.).

Whilst I totally concur with you on the matter of landsknecht part-amrouring, this video begs to differ on the reason why they did such a thing (as a well trained knight could not only get up, but run, jump, mount and even horse-fall in full Milanese).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg&feature=related

Edit: I like the new Greatsword sculpts, but those Perry jobs were the number, to be sure....

mrtn
08-01-2012, 10:54
Contrary to popular belief, full plate does not render you immobile. Otherwise it'd be more of a hindrance than a help.
The leather in the sword is for halfsword techniques. it allows you to grip the sword in two hands with one hand closer to the point. This allows you to stab with greater accuracy which is quite handy agains armoured opponents.

Listen to this man. :)

Demoulius
08-01-2012, 11:08
Woah cheers for the great replies all :D

Im loving these videos :D

The guy doins situps has some insane stamina and the guy who drops himself from his horse is like "whatever" and just goes on with the show :eek:

The armor itself labeling them full plate makes sense I guess. I figured that full plate meant a full body armour, but its a sort of armour like mail then? The exposed arms and legs always make me abit sceptical but if your entire fighting tecnique works around that then er...

Every arguments against it that I can work of is moot :)

Chaotic Pumpkin
08-01-2012, 11:21
Every long medieval blade can be mentally partitioned as such: the "strong" (lower half) and the "weak" (top half). Only the top half was actually kept sharp. A gloved knight could push or hold his blade low above the crossguard without cutting himself. Generally, I don't find it illogical to see that point covered in leather...

On armor I cannot comment. I don't find it outrageous that the model is not covered head to toe in metal: I believe between trained swordsmen armor doesn't save you from a direct blow - it's there to protect from lucky swipes and ricochet that would prove fatal otherwise.

Bloodknight
08-01-2012, 11:24
Contrary to popular belief, full plate does not render you immobile

Depends if it's combat armour or Stechzeug. The myth that people can't get up or need a crane to mount a horse comes from tournament jousting armour (Stechzeug), which was indeed very heavy and immobile since it was supposed to give the best protection to the jouster (who didn't need mobility), but usually didn't feature movable helmets and was very heavy. That said, the helmets tended to only grant vision while leaning forward so those guys would have been useless when dismounted anyway if it had been normal combat armour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jousting_armour#Jousting_armour
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stech-_und_Rennzeug (German, but google translator will help, I guess)
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Stechzeug_Wien.jpg&filetimestamp=20070913190215

The Low King
08-01-2012, 15:52
Because its a fantasy game, balance over realism. In reality plate would confer a 2+ save because it can stop all but the strongest blows.

Melchor
08-01-2012, 16:08
@Bloodknight: There is variation of course. But then again, Greatswords don't usually turn up on the battlefield to joust. ;)

@The Low King: The level of protection would be more dependant of the type of weapon used and the skill of the person using the weapon. With fully armoured knights it was usually a matter of being either very sneaky and sticking pointy bits (ie. daggers, sword tips) in between the armour plates (backs of knee joints, elbow joints, eye slits) or just hitting the knight really hard with a blunt instrument (maces and flails).

But, as you said tabletop wargaming requires a certain level of abstraction to work.

Duke Ramulots
08-01-2012, 16:15
@Bloodknight: There is variation of course. But then again, Greatswords don't usually turn up on the battlefield to joust. ;)

@The Low King: The level of protection would be more dependant of the type of weapon used and the skill of the person using the weapon. With fully armoured knights it was usually a matter of being either very sneaky and sticking pointy bits (ie. daggers, sword tips) in between the armour plates (backs of knee joints, elbow joints, eye slits) or just hitting the knight really hard with a blunt instrument (maces and flails).

But, as you said tabletop wargaming requires a certain level of abstraction to work.

They actually just invented things like maces, flails, warhammers, and morning stars to deal with plate armour. Swords have little to no chance of getting through it.

Melchor
08-01-2012, 16:23
True. Much easier to break the bones of the knight inside than to try and actually get through the armour. ;)

Makaber
08-01-2012, 18:50
Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricasso

Demoulius
09-01-2012, 01:05
If im not mistaken warhammers were invented to combat armour as well. The sharp pointy end could pierce armour/shields or kill the mount whilst the blunt end could crush bones and generally leave someone a bloody mess...

Read something akin to that a while ago anyway... *shrugs*

Feorag
09-01-2012, 04:41
The way to combat plate armour tended to be heavy blows to the joints damaging the person in the armour was a secondary objective to making the joints not work properly. Once rendered immobile a dagger would do the job quite nicely, it's why articulated leg armour lost favour throughout the 15th-16th Century.

theshoveller
09-01-2012, 10:42
the leather is for practical carrying reasons, normal swords are often balanced close to the hilt, but that cant be done with great swords, and as the natural grease your skin produces actually causes blades to rust over time, the leather allowed for the blade to be carried closer to the balance point without allowing you to touch the blade itself. it isnt a hiderence as there is no force being applied against the enemy at that point, its too close to the hilt. all the damage is at the far, pointy, business end of the sword.
In addition:

Fighting with a sword in a formation, it's common to switch to a spear-grip and stab with the weapon. The leather over the ricasso helps to give a more comfortable, secure grip further up the blade, making this easier.

EDIT - as Makaber's link indicates.

Quinzy
09-01-2012, 13:02
Ultimately, the partial covering follows the style of Landsknechte, whom the Greatswords are undoubtedly modelled after.

http://www.landsknecht.com/assets/images/landsknecht2_b.jpg
http://www.landsknecht.com/assets/images/zweihander_b.jpg
http://www.landsknecht.com/assets/images/landsknecht.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Ernst_I._von_Baden-Durlach.jpg/170px-Ernst_I._von_Baden-Durlach.jpg

For more, cf. Durer's sketches of Landsknechte.