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AM1640
12-01-2012, 21:44
Hi, hopefully the title isn't too confusing, I am wondering why after so many years of advancing (and regressing) do the races of the 41st millenium still fight battles in a manner similar to WW2 which would include up close infantry battles. I do realize that there are space fleets but if they fight anything like the Battlefleet game then they are also stuck in WW2 style tactics.
It is supposed to be the future, while still being a playable game. SO ignoring the actual game and just focusing ont he fluff why hasn't the Imperium , in an effort to save resources and lives, negotiated any kind of peace with the Tau, Eldar, Orcs (some of them in older editions trade with humans) etc?
Why hasn't any large scale attack that could potentially wipe out enemy races that do not want to consider co-existance been attempted. For example "Hey Dark Eldar you leave us alone and we'll leave you alone otherwise we will develop and release horrible and painful biological agents upon your worlds, we will blow up the suns in your systems, we will lay space mines around your planets so you can't leave them, etc"
I doubt it would be that difficult to create some sort of bait to lure a tyranid hive fleet too close to a black hole, neutron star, or something else releasing massive amounts of gamma radiation. At that point it won't matter how evolved your DNA is because there will be so many holes in it you will be dead. Just my thoughts on a game that is set in the future with people flying from planet to planet, wearing powered armor, and then running up to stab each other with a pointy stick rather than wipe the target planet clean with some sort of fancy futuristic weapon.

Zothos
12-01-2012, 21:48
There are negotiated treaties and such with the Tau and Eldar. It has been shown in the Tau books that the imperium sends ambassadors to the Tau at the very least.

Orks as far as I know do not really understand "peace".

If the game didn't have close up infantry fights....there would be no game....

Wil Grand
12-01-2012, 21:54
I think it's because the models and the game mechanic are the important thing and the story is made up. I know that sounds a bit trolly but the game is that way because it's the way to do shooty infantry model game and the story for fun. The story can't lead the game.

Radium
12-01-2012, 21:54
Well, because if they did we wouldn't have this game :P.

I've always thought of it like this: if everyone's tech is so advanced that your armour will most likely keep you alive no matter what the opponent throws at you (assuming they don't just nuke the place from orbit. And you can't nuke everything, because most likely the reason you're fighting in the first place is something in or on the piece of land you're both fighting on. Bombing that to bits is a bit counterproductive), and you absolutely want to make sure your opponent is dead, you stab him in the face. Repeatedly. Until he's very, very, very much like a red smear on the ground. Or something to that effect.
For some races (like the Eldar), their tech got so advanced they would win their wars no matter what they decided to do (and the fact that they were reborn after death before the Fall also helps a lot here), so they used melee weapons to fill their desire for bloodletting.

And of course: 40k is just fantasy in SPAAAAACE!! to begin with. And fantasy is always about heroes duking it out in personal combat in the end, so 40k is that way too.

Also: Dark Eldar don't have planets as they live in the Webway ;).

Iron_Lord
12-01-2012, 21:54
Large scale weapons are used- it's called Exterminatus.

However, as planets are much less expendable than people to the Imperium, Exterminatus is rarely used.

Sun-killer weapons exist but are normally Dark Age Of Technology relics.

nedius
12-01-2012, 21:57
To be honest, it's because the setting is not a 'real' setting. It has evolved from a Fantasy and so it it more Space Fantasy than Science Fiction.

Within that setting, the main feature of it is fantasy style combat - this is relected in the fluff and game - the phase most likely to in games is the CC one.

Yes, in real space warfare, all battles would be completed in spaceships, and in an attack on a planet it would be little but massive orbital bombardment of everything but the most key objectives. The main 40k game would be Battlefleet gothic, with 40k itself being a novel little skirmish game depicting those rare occasions where orbital support is unfortunately missing.

ColShaw
12-01-2012, 22:01
There ARE planet- and species-destroying weapons in the 40K universe. Cyclonic torpedoes, virus bombs, disease weapons of Nurgle.

The problem is, habitable worlds are tremendously valuable. Think about it; how much of the planet Earth is worth fighting over?! And to control territory requires boots on the ground. Even modern militaries forget this at their peril; a lot of the trouble the US Army and its allies got into in Iraq and Afghanistan was a result of having insufficient troop presence to actually control territory. This can make for some bizarre things in 40K, mainly in terms of having no sense of scale of conflict whatsoever (I would guess that an Imperial Guard force would need to be several tens of millions strong to adequately control even one fairly populous world, rather than the truly silly numbers that get batted about (one of the Third War for Armageddon battles talked about 60,000 Guardsmen being a lot, if memory serves).

Whatever. The Imperium is not a tactically innovative society, and they do not understand and do not trust high technology. It's a lot like Stalinist Russia. They constantly try to crack nuts with sledgehammers, and rely a lot on very old technologies, coupled with tremendously advanced things they can't fathom. It's 90% superstition and routine, 5% actual tactical skill and technical knowledge, and 5% making crap up.

And, as has been mentioned, hand-to-hand combat makes for better drama on the tabletop.

ehlijen
12-01-2012, 22:02
If that's what you think about 40k, then 40k isn't for you. That's not an insult, just a fact. 40k is meant to be the past, but in a dystopian future. GW wanted hover tanks and lasers, but they also want trench charges and cavalry. Monofilament knives in classic hero sagas. Beowulf taking on mechagrendel with big steel gloves. King Arthur with a gatling gun taking a deamonically possessed tank apart.

As for why doesn't one race wipe out another: they try all the time but fail all the time. That might sound stupid and not the stuff for a long, ongoing story, but that's exactly what 40k is:
A stupid excuse to have as many wars as possible to allow for all factions to always fight each other on the tabletop without ever moving the timeline forward too much.

40k background is specifically written to allow for games between a massive hodgepodge of different themes and ideas in factions to happen. That is all it is. If that irks you, you need to look elsewhere for a game. Again, that's not an insult, just a reality. You wouldn't expect chili sauce to quench your thirst, would you?

strongbow
12-01-2012, 22:05
The human race is highly xenophobic etc. (in my view partly) for its own defence as well as for the political/economic gain of the highest levels of political power. The Imperium is in decline as it's sheer size and unwillingness to adapt and develop its technology is working against it as new and larger threats keep appearing. This decline may well stir sympathy from a player who wants to defend humanity and perhaps the opposite in someone who wants to see what would happen as this decline was furthered.

The Imperium is -kind of- not always utterly at war with the Tau and Eldar, truces and war happen. Both races will ally when it is in their advantage to and very often turn on the other as soon as possible. They can't trust each other. It is not in the Imperium's way to trust a race like the Eldar who are both highly arrogant and unpredictable. The Eldar will never 'ally' with mankind because they have virtually no sympathy or care for them.

Orks are a race that exist purely for war. They will never form lasting alliances because why make friends when you can crack some skulls?

Regarding large scale attacks - The Imperium, whilst huge, faces war practically everywhere which consumes vast amount of resources. It seems now, more than often, wars are fought defensively rather than offensively. Major attacks that are launched are often met with severe losses, and will never have the resources to start with capable of wiping out an entire enemy race.

As for the Tyranids - while it was proved by Tigurius that a hive fleet could be directed, it was a highly difficult task. Luring a hive fleet to a black hole would require the genestealer bait to survive long enough for the fleet to find them. (forgive me if I'm wrong). Also, part of what makes the Tyranids so terrifying is their intelligence and cunning. They are not just brain dead beasts that win only by numbers. They are extremely capable and It's not the same as tying a piece of meat to a string, pulling it along and hoping an animal follows it.

Dark Eldar are far too arrogant and skilled to be afraid of a "Hey Dark Eldar you leave us alone and we'll leave you alone otherwise we will develop and release horrible and painful biological agents upon your worlds, we will blow up the suns in your systems, we will lay space mines around your planets so you can't leave them, etc". If the Imperium tried to do that the response would be massive. They would have to fight through Dark Eldar fleets to lay mines and getting to Commoragh would be hugely dangerous (although admittedly not impossible). Plus, no messenger delivering that message would survive, and an automated message would just be destroyed. Then, they would probably attack a ton of Imperial worlds, wipe out the populations and make things worse.

Just my 2p on why the Imperium doesn't stomp all over smaller aliens.

You have to realise that a major reason is that it would make the fluff boring and would make the game less interesting. The even bigger reason is because GW says they don't.

The Death of Reason
12-01-2012, 22:08
Because the game started out as a skirmish game, limited only in size by what you could fit on your randomly sized game table.

Then at some point, some baffoon decided to standardize game tables, which at the point was fine with the models available.

But then suddenly GW decided to produce loads of tank models and even mechanized artillery that to boost sales needed to have rules to fit the game. Sadly these doesn't really fit within the football field sized gaming table - fluffwise that is.

On the 'why don't they just blow up solar systems'-question, you have to consider that most wars are fought over resources, be it mineral or 'lebensraum'. There really is no point in blowing up a solar system just to kill a bunch of xenos :)

Okuto
12-01-2012, 22:15
40k feels alot more like WW1 and Napoleonic blended together imo.....

But it's the appeal of the setting, basically anything can happen....

Plus GW has gotten pretty good with those of us who want factions who are more tech. advanced/ look like they have common sense....(elysians...Tau)

Necrons were a missed chance imo to give us a truely Sci-Fi appealing faction to those of us who wanted it....

It's one of those things I would of liked....

Disturbed Frog
12-01-2012, 23:22
As far as I know the IoM has allied with tau, eldar and necrons before. It's usually against chaos or tyranids though and so only temporary. As for orks to my knowledge the blood axes hire themselves out as mercenaries to the IoM occasionally usually getting paid in old weapons and tanks.

As for using viruses and chemical warfare the space marines have done that against a tyranid hive fleet before with success.

As for nuking/ camping planets with mines, well most of the evil races don't really live on planets ie. Dark Eldar (web way), chaos (eye of terror), tyranids (hive fleets)

As for the imperial guard looking like there in ww2 well it's an alternate universe and semi-steam punk like the fallout series. So the tactics just suit the style.

Lastly the cc weapons, well for the eldar and space marines it an honor thing and the dark eldar and chaos just kinda kept there's when they turned, the tau and necrons aren't that big on cc and the orks are just brutish and like blood and hitting things. As for Imperial guard I assume it's more of a symbol of leader ship for Lilke the commisar or sgt. It also comes in handy against fast moving nids and daemons :)

Hope that helped

witchunter180
12-01-2012, 23:28
I just assumed its a result of the "Lets put odd things together and call it fluff" design phiolosphy. You see it in star wars and star trek; contemporary and historical motiffs are combined in some way and it generates an 'original' look. In star wars, stormtroopers were based on *gasp* stormtroopers! and the leman russ tank is based off one of the old german tank designs (can't remember which one, but its like late WWI or early WW2). However, I also think it has the most euro-gothic feel to it while still maintaining the industrial nature of the setting. Kinda why I like skaven, I think too...

Gen.Steiner
12-01-2012, 23:29
Necrons were a missed chance imo to give us a truely Sci-Fi appealing faction to those of us who wanted it

Because if they had, as they are literally the most advanced race in the galaxy, their rules would look like this:

X points (matches your opponent's force): Nano-Dissassembler Swarm - upon completion of deployment by your opponent, roll a d6. On a 2+, you win as the opponent's entire army is consumed by a cloud of nanonic dissassembler constructs rending them down into their component atoms. On a 1, allow your opponent to have a turn. The NDS is immune to all weapons. You then roll again at the start of your turn 2.

:p

witchunter180
12-01-2012, 23:32
Because if they had, as they are literally the most advanced race in the galaxy, their rules would look like this:

X points (matches your opponent's force): Nano-Dissassembler Swarm - upon completion of deployment by your opponent, roll a d6. On a 2+, you win as the opponent's entire army is consumed by a cloud of nanonic dissassembler constructs rending them down into their component atoms. On a 1, allow your opponent to have a turn. The NDS is immune to all weapons. You then roll again at the start of your turn 2.

:p

Same with tyranids :)

Or, GK rules: If prescene of tyranid infestation detected, commence exterminatus. Roll a D6 at the beginning of GK player turn 1; on a 2+, virus bomb is used.

StratManKudzu
12-01-2012, 23:52
the leman russ tank is based off one of the old german tank designs (can't remember which one, but its like late WWI or early WW2).

To be pedantic, it would be influenced by the British Mark i-v tanks.

example:
http://landships.info/landships/tank_articles/images/Mark_IV_24_small.jpg

Deadnight
13-01-2012, 00:15
Hi, hopefully the title isn't too confusing, I am wondering why after so many years of advancing (and regressing) do the races of the 41st millenium still fight battles in a manner similar to WW2 which would include up close infantry battles. I do realize that there are space fleets but if they fight anything like the Battlefleet game then they are also stuck in WW2 style tactics.


imagery.



It is supposed to be the future, while still being a playable game. SO ignoring the actual game and just focusing ont he fluff why hasn't the Imperium , in an effort to save resources and lives, negotiated any kind of peace with the Tau, Eldar, Orcs (some of them in older editions trade with humans) etc?


the blood of martyrs is the seed of the imperium. read your hymnals please. those who die do so with honour and pride, for what can be greater than giving your life in His name? Lives we have. billions upon billions.All proud to wage war in His name. Billions of lives are lost each day in countless wars. And yet, none are lost in vain. Sacrifice is necessary to maintain our defences in these dark times. So long as His enemies gather, our soldiers will spill their blood gladly to keep them at by.

negotiate with xeno scum? report to your local commissar, for reeducation please. the stars belong, by right and by blood to Him, and His followers. The galaxy belongs to the Emperor, and his servants. Filthy xenos have no right to even co-exist in the same galaxy.

Why would we ally with the orks? the only thing they will take in trade are weapons, and they're as happy using those weapons on Imperials as each other. Eldar? They are vain, capricious scum who will happily see a billion humans die to save one of their own. Why would we treat with those who will only betray us again? Time and time again, they have done this. they have no honour whatsoever. I have no time for their degeneracy. they created slaanesh. proof enough of their innate heresy. And tau? What the hell are they?



Why hasn't any large scale attack that could potentially wipe out enemy races that do not want to consider co-existance been attempted. For example "Hey Dark Eldar you leave us alone and we'll leave you alone otherwise we will develop and release horrible and painful biological agents upon your worlds, we will blow up the suns in your systems, we will lay space mines around your planets so you can't leave them, etc"
.

please try it. you'd need a lot of mines to block a planet. planets are rather BIG to be honest. plus its the Dark City, in the heart of the webway. the imperials have no reliable way of getting there. And bear in mind, this is an enemy who have the technology to put a black hole in a box, giftwrap it, and send it on its way.
if its orks you're threatening they'll simply laugh it off an look forward to a good fight. eldar?



I doubt it would be that difficult to create some sort of bait to lure a tyranid hive fleet too close to a black hole, neutron star, or something else releasing massive amounts of gamma radiation. At that point it won't matter how evolved your DNA is because there will be so many holes in it you will be dead.

considering this is a race that travels between galaxies, im sure their narwhals have ways of avoiding black holes by now. it might work though... once. and then the hive mind learns. plus, does the imperium actually have that technology? the eldar, maybe.


Just my thoughts on a game that is set in the future with people flying from planet to planet, wearing powered armor, and then running up to stab each other with a pointy stick rather than wipe the target planet clean with some sort of fancy futuristic weapon.

the crux here is this: thats not 40k. 40k is not science fiction. its science-fantasy. its the dark ages in space, in both mentality and tactics, only with laser guns and space ships as well as swords and axes.

witchunter180
13-01-2012, 00:18
To be pedantic, it would be influenced by the British Mark i-v tanks.

example:
http://landships.info/landships/tank_articles/images/Mark_IV_24_small.jpg

You are correct, sir, that definitely looks more like it. Still, I know I've seen a german tank of similar desgin.

Minsc
13-01-2012, 00:27
Hmm, now that I think about it, "logical science fiction gaming" sounds like fun!

______________________

Guy 1: "Hey, let's play a game of 40k!"
Guy 2: "Sure!"

Guy 1: "Alright, since this is 10th Ed. there's no need for deployment."
Guy 2: "Exactly, shall I go first?"

Guy 1: "Go ahead."
Guy 2: "Excellent. Okey, on 2+ my fleet arrives safely. - *rolls a die*"

Guy 1: "Ah, darn. OK; on 5+, my anti-space defence system works. *rolls a die*"
Guy 2: "Hah! You missed! Ok, since we play 'annihilation', I can just bomb the crap out of that planet, nothing for me to grab down there right?"

Guy 1: "Right".
Guy 2: "Sweet, and since I'm aiming down a planet from orbit, I have a 100% chance to hit."

Guy 1: *Groans* "Ok, last chance for the planets inhabitants, on 6+ my space fleet get's here in time to stop you! *rolls die*..."("/&=%@, I hate this game!"
Guy 2: "Hehe, too bad, now your planet is vaporized, looks like I won?"

Guy 1: "Yeah, you won, good game."
Guy 2: "Thanks, good game. Want a rematch? I'll let you go first this time :) "

______________________

Wow, that game looked so fun! And think of all the money and time we players will save. Who's up for a quick game?

ehlijen
13-01-2012, 00:35
You are correct, sir, that definitely looks more like it. Still, I know I've seen a german tank of similar desgin.

That'd suprise me. There are two key elements in the Leman Russ design that have never made it into German tank design philosphy (and were abandonded by mid WW2 by almost everyone else too):
-Tracks that go all around the tank (as seen on the british MkV and similar). German tanks from the get go had Tracks more like in modern tanks, that at most rose up to half the height of the chassis.
-The split turret/hull mount gun. This was a design philosophy used mostly in between wars British tanks (and copied in some American designs). The Germans had split turret/machine gun sponsons all around setups in WW1, but by WW2 had decided that they'd rather have 2 different tank designs to carry AT and AP cannon respectively, than to cram both into the same design.

The most similar to a Russ I could find is this tank, one of the between wars british designs I believe.

Minsc
13-01-2012, 00:40
Mark VIII (Liberty).

There's your Leman Russ / Land Raider predecessor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Mark_VIII

sycopat
13-01-2012, 00:57
Wiping a planet clean generally leaves it uninhabitable. An inhabitable planet is an incredibly rare prize.

Peace with the Tau, Eldar, and Orks: Easy to explain why that hasn't happened: Tau only want peace on their terms. Eldar are not interested in an alliance with mere mon keigh, Orks are not interested in peace at all. Oh, and the human Imperium is a xenophobic fascist dictatorship/beauracracy.

The Dark Eldar live in an alternate dimension it's hard to get to. So do chaos.

Technically, none of the races are willing to consider coexistence except the Tau, and they'll only consider it if they get to be number one. Temporary non-aggression is as close as it gets.

Tyranids are not mere animals to be easily lead. (Also, how do you place bait beside a black hole without it being sucked in?)

As to the relatively short ranges the game is played at, well two things:
a) The game is not to scale.
b) Modern engagements tend to take place at range because our ranged weaponry is so much more effective than our personal armour. In the 40k setting, the armour is pretty effective, especially at greater distances, and as such engagements can be fought at closer ranges, which allows super soldiers greater opportunity to make use of their abilities.

These questions are in a way fair, but they assume perfect conditions for why they will work. One may as well ask why we modern humans haven't put aside our differences and united under a one world government. Just because you doubt something is difficult, does not make it easy.

Wil Grand
13-01-2012, 01:21
I just saw a complex multiquote

/thread

Okuto
13-01-2012, 01:25
Because if they had, as they are literally the most advanced race in the galaxy, their rules would look like this:

X points (matches your opponent's force): Nano-Dissassembler Swarm - upon completion of deployment by your opponent, roll a d6. On a 2+, you win as the opponent's entire army is consumed by a cloud of nanonic dissassembler constructs rending them down into their component atoms. On a 1, allow your opponent to have a turn. The NDS is immune to all weapons. You then roll again at the start of your turn 2.

:p

They wouldn't have to have crazy rules......

I'm talking about their designs......

Like the ghost ark....cough.....sword and shields?:confused:

Actually needing physical crew to man their armor?

Actually needing a physical keyboard for the crew?.....

You'd expect a high advanced race like the necrons to be much more efficient

witchunter180
13-01-2012, 01:25
Mark VIII (Liberty).

There's your Leman Russ / Land Raider predecessor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Mark_VIII

Where's my lascannon? lol

gLOBS
13-01-2012, 02:17
That'd suprise me. There are two key elements in the Leman Russ design that have never made it into German tank design philosphy (and were abandonded by mid WW2 by almost everyone else too):
-Tracks that go all around the tank (as seen on the british MkV and similar). German tanks from the get go had Tracks more like in modern tanks, that at most rose up to half the height of the chassis.
-The split turret/hull mount gun. This was a design philosophy used mostly in between wars British tanks (and copied in some American designs). The Germans had split turret/machine gun sponsons all around setups in WW1, but by WW2 had decided that they'd rather have 2 different tank designs to carry AT and AP cannon respectively, than to cram both into the same design.

The most similar to a Russ I could find is this tank, one of the between wars british designs I believe.

That is a French B1 Tank that entered service in 1934. I just so happened to be reading this thread and was in queue waiting to use it in my tank game.

easternheretic
13-01-2012, 02:27
If you you boil it down to the dregs in a crucible, war is usually about "real estate".

You only win that kind of war with troops on the ground, holding the "real estate". Imposing your will so to speak.

I know wars have been fought for ideals and what nought, or so they claim... BUT if you really look hard enough, it is ALWAYS about "real estate".

Go forth and multiply. You need "real estate" to house the "multiply".

World War II was about "real estate", in 40K years time, it will be no different.

BTW "real estate" encompasses more then just land, but land is usually the most important. It includes much more. For example, power over the natives of said conquered land etc etc. I'll leave it at that. Any more, and we'll ending writing an entire book!

Cheers

ehlijen
13-01-2012, 02:35
That is a French B1 Tank that entered service in 1934. I just so happened to be reading this thread and was in queue waiting to use it in my tank game.

What the more tankwise than me person said.

Spell_of_Destruction
13-01-2012, 02:40
Of course there are examples of planets being nearly wiped out - Tallarn is a perfect example. There is also reference to numerous 'Dead' planets on which all life has been eradicated.

As others have pointed out, wiping out the planet doesn't necessarily achieve the goal of a war. Plus, this is sci-fi - it doesn't take much to fabricate a reason as to why the Imperium can't/won't, for example, direct all of its resources to destroying Cammorragh.

There is an Inquisotor Czevak quote in which he advises that diverting resources towards the destruction of Biel-Tan would relieve a huge strain on the Imperium. We are left with the impression that beauracracy and politics regarding the allocation of resources is getting in the way of this as much as any other factor.

GrimZAG
13-01-2012, 03:01
I am wondering why...

Because it's awesome. If it's awesome, people will play.

zoggin-eck
13-01-2012, 04:03
Again mate, because it's a game! Designers make things they way they like. It really isn't that difficult. If you really want a answer, look for designer notes. Even the intro to Rogue Trader will go some way.

You ask why peace deals between species and empires haven't been made, and yet we real-world humans can barely manage within our own race!

(The only part I found confusing in the title was the lack of a question mark :))

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2012, 08:23
You ask why peace deals between species and empires haven't been made

Because if there were, it wouldn't make for a very good wargame, would it? :) The point of the setting is that every army has a reason to fight every other, and often against themselves.

orkmiester
13-01-2012, 10:21
That is a French B1 Tank that entered service in 1934. I just so happened to be reading this thread and was in queue waiting to use it in my tank game.

what he said...

hang on *world of tanks player detected*:shifty::wtf:

anyway- 40k warfare looks like WWII, but the overall situation has more similarities to the slow fall of the Roman empire to my mind:p

Of course it is a game with a 'Space fantasy/si-fi' setting and thats what many of us take it as. Though its good that on the odd occasion of 'deep thought' we can see how GW have raided that library of history for inspiration:D

Obviously in real life things would be different:rolleyes:


just my humble view:angel:

zoggin-eck
13-01-2012, 10:29
Because if there were, it wouldn't make for a very good wargame, would it? :) The point of the setting is that every army has a reason to fight every other, and often against themselves.


Why are you asking me? I already said it was a silly question to ask in the first place.

Sir_Turalyon
13-01-2012, 11:09
Hi, hopefully the title isn't too confusing, I am wondering why after so many years of advancing (and regressing) do the races of the 41st millenium still fight battles in a manner similar to WW2 which would include up close infantry battles. I do realize that there are space fleets but if they fight anything like the Battlefleet game then they are also stuck in WW2 style tactics.


Because it's supposed to be future, not XXI st century, and not everything we believe in will carry on. Some tactics we believe to be state of the art may long be obsolete and easily countered; some tactics we consider obsolete (perhaps because they are costly, not easily countered) may be tried, tested and proved over millenia.

As an analogy, if Napoleonics era player saw tactical game in XX/XXI st century, he too would probably be asking why in supposedly futuristic game troops are out of formation, skulking for cover like "backward savages in a jungle", rather than forming into neat ranks then holding themselves and the enemy under artillery fire until one side has won. One of things that made 40k setting age well over 25 years is assumption that whatever is state of the art today is old and forgotten, no matter when "today" is; this way we don't play a game that looks like something from the 80's.



SO ignoring the actual game and just focusing ont he fluff why hasn't the Imperium , in an effort to save resources and lives, negotiated any kind of peace with the Tau, Eldar, Orcs (some of them in older editions trade with humans) etc?


1. They did, in Dark Age of Technology, and it didn't work. First, the supposedly friendly Eldar destroyed human interstellar civilisation by their irresponsibility, along with their own (formation of Slaanesh shut down warp travel for humans for 5000 years). Then, other aliens broke their peace treaties to pick on remains of humanity. Humans learned the hard way aliens can't be trusted - they had to launch the Great Crusade to clean up mess left by previous alien peace treaties.

2. Our value of individual lives has not carried over into 40st millenium. With the human species endangered and entire worlds at stake, preservation of lives seems to be of secondary priority.



Just my thoughts on a game that is set in the future with people flying from planet to planet, wearing powered armor, and then running up to stab each other with a pointy stick rather than wipe the target planet clean with some sort of fancy futuristic weapon.

Because a planet wiped clean is useless to Imperium.

As of pointed sticks, dominance of shooting over close combat is another XXIst century paradigm that did not have to carry over. Yes, on modern battlefield there are few close combats; we try to preserve lives of our soldiers, fight other soldiers trying to preserve their lives and each trooper can lay a surpressing fire. When fired upon our soldiers are supposed to find cover and return fire rather than charge under bullets with bayonets.

40k is not a modern battlefield; when facing enemy who can't be surpressed, like Orks who *want* to fight you close and are not afraid of dieing along the way or Space Marines able to shrug few bullets off their armour then kill the shooter with their bare hands, or Eldar who can jump you out of nowhere, suddenly you need to be able to defend yourself in close combat. And once you do, you learn you can attack yourself. Surpression wasn't always effective; as recently as WWI returninf fire under surpression was unsuccessful, so approach that worked was to assault enemy trench under surpressing fire, with bayonets, axes, shotguns and claymoures...

DEADMARSH
13-01-2012, 13:42
Hmm, now that I think about it, "logical science fiction gaming" sounds like fun!

______________________

Guy 1: "Hey, let's play a game of 40k!"
Guy 2: "Sure!"

Guy 1: "Alright, since this is 10th Ed. there's no need for deployment."
Guy 2: "Exactly, shall I go first?"

Guy 1: "Go ahead."
Guy 2: "Excellent. Okey, on 2+ my fleet arrives safely. - *rolls a die*"

Guy 1: "Ah, darn. OK; on 5+, my anti-space defence system works. *rolls a die*"
Guy 2: "Hah! You missed! Ok, since we play 'annihilation', I can just bomb the crap out of that planet, nothing for me to grab down there right?"

Guy 1: "Right".
Guy 2: "Sweet, and since I'm aiming down a planet from orbit, I have a 100% chance to hit."

Guy 1: *Groans* "Ok, last chance for the planets inhabitants, on 6+ my space fleet get's here in time to stop you! *rolls die*..."("/&=%@, I hate this game!"
Guy 2: "Hehe, too bad, now your planet is vaporized, looks like I won?"

Guy 1: "Yeah, you won, good game."
Guy 2: "Thanks, good game. Want a rematch? I'll let you go first this time :) "

______________________

Wow, that game looked so fun! And think of all the money and time we players will save. Who's up for a quick game?

No kidding. This! It's a game you play with models, dude! Why do you think they're focused on infantry combat instead of nuking stuff from orbit? It's like asking why the Death Star had an uncovered exhaust port, FFS- because if it didn't, the Empire would just roll all over everybody and that wouldn't make for a very entertaining film.

As far as why doesn't the IoM just make treaties with everybody, oh, I don't know. Why didn't the Germans just make treaties with the Allies? Why didn't the Americans just sign a treaty with the Vietnamese or the Russians and those pesky Afghans? I mean, seriously...

Friedrich von Offenbach
13-01-2012, 17:38
Answer to this whole thread: Its a game! Real warfare is boring: sit back and shoot a million bullets at a target 5km away over the course of an hour and then get bored and call in an air strike(even Shooter games for PC/PS3/Xbox are no where near a real representation of warfare)

witchunter180
13-01-2012, 19:02
I think the original point of the thread was a comment on the asthetics of the game. I know we've got dozens (hundreds?) of threads on why its not realistic Okay, its more like a thousand or 2... or 3 :D

baphomael
13-01-2012, 20:06
If you you boil it down to the dregs in a crucible, war is usually about "real estate".

You only win that kind of war with troops on the ground, holding the "real estate". Imposing your will so to speak.

I know wars have been fought for ideals and what nought, or so they claim... BUT if you really look hard enough, it is ALWAYS about "real estate".

Go forth and multiply. You need "real estate" to house the "multiply".

World War II was about "real estate", in 40K years time, it will be no different.

BTW "real estate" encompasses more then just land, but land is usually the most important. It includes much more. For example, power over the natives of said conquered land etc etc. I'll leave it at that. Any more, and we'll ending writing an entire book!

Cheers


As Carl von Clauzwitz famously wrote; ""War is the continuation of policy by other means". Its politics with bullets instead of words - the last argument of kings. "War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means."



Incidently, on the whole 'why the napoleonic thing'? Interestingly enough, von Clauswitz was writing just after the Napoleonic Wars (and, also, informed by the Franco-Prussian war). Interestingly enough, it is still today a core text in any academic course relating to strategy, security studies and foreign policy. It is still the seminal text on warfare and many of its principles are just as applicable today... even when written in an era of Lines, Columns and Squares.

popisdead
13-01-2012, 22:09
Because it literally is modeled after it.

Fantasy = Napoleonic warfare
40k = WWII warfare.

khaosmarines
14-01-2012, 01:17
I think its pretty clear that Warhammer40k is not intend to be an apt representation of the future. I don't feel its necessary to try and prove realism as their simply is very little.

I often wondered why there was so much hacking and slashing when realistically if some weapons in the future would almost no doubt be able to shoot, long distances (kms) with insane accuracy as well as being small enough to carry on a man sized unit.

The answer: because its awesome to have melee stuff in the future i mean were would we be without the lightsaber?

No treaties: read the fluff of Orks, Eldar, tau
Warhammer 40k is an alternate dimension were no one gets along.

And in a rather pointless attempt to defend the accuracy of the game, their is no way the Imperium Of man could just go and blow everyone else up. If you read the intro to the rule book it pushes that mankind is set upon on all sides, it does not have the power to take on everyone, their not the only group that can blow things up. Hell if all the nids or all the orks full on attacked the Imperium the Imperium would lose. Says this in their fluff.

Zentdiam
14-01-2012, 07:01
To sum it up. The fluff plays out more in the way you would like to see it, with far more alliances, treachery, and stuff besides straight up gun fights. That doesn't really work in a miniature war game. Now an illuminati type game with 40k factions would be kinda cool.

prowla
14-01-2012, 12:14
BTW "real estate" encompasses more then just land, but land is usually the most important. It includes much more. For example, power over the natives of said conquered land etc etc.

Not so much about "real estate", but about resources. Habitable planets are one resource, agriculture and factories another, raw materials a third.

It's not always the best idea to wipe everything out from the orbit, really. Depends what you value down there. Sometimes you might be after only raw materials, but why destroy mines, foundries and factories, if you can capture them and save years of rebuilding? Even if they are xenos facilities, they would be of use to you, not to mention you could study a lot of fancy tech of theirs.

It's all about cost of lives vs. cost of resources and rebuilding. And it's pretty hard to dislodge dug-in infantry without nuking everything from orbit.

Lord Zarkov
14-01-2012, 12:17
The Imperium considers men to be it's most abundant and renewable resource.

Habitable planets by contrast are scarce and jealously held on to.

Hence they'd rather lose millions of men then a planet (or even billions in some cases, where they've wiped out all the existing populace and then replaced it).