Ask the Longbeards about the good old days of Fantasy Background [Archive] - Page 2

N0-1_H3r3

10-02-2007, 18:16

Out of interest, where is this background located, and is there any more information on Leitdorf's "heirs" anywhere? I wouldn't mind reading up on Averland politics a bit more if there's anything out there.
You know, I can't honestly remember where I read it. It might well have been part of a post from someone on the Black Industries team, shortly after the WFRP 2nd Edition rulebook was released, but that was about two years ago now...

Either way, there's no-one left of Leitdorf's direct family to claim Averland, and the von Alptraum family is eager to reclaim the province that was once theirs - Marius managed to oust Countess Ludmilla von Alptraum several years ago in a highly unconventional coup.

Arnizipal

11-02-2007, 01:02

IIRC it was mentioned in WD during the build up for the Storm of Chaos campaign. It was in a small box so you could easily miss it.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth

01-03-2007, 17:03

Dark elves

This is probably a very simple question. It talks about how the lands of Nagarythe were flooded or something and that's why they went to Naggaroth. I'm not sure I understand this, what was Nagarythe?

Arnizipal

01-03-2007, 18:01

The most northen province of Ulthuan. It was situated outside the circle of mountains that protects the inland. That's why it was always the first to be attacked when Chaos forces layed siege to the island.
Almost constant warfare made the Elves the lived in Nagarythe tough and warlike. They where considered violent and rather brutal by their inland cousins.

The province was shattered and sank beneath the sea when Malekith and his coven of sorcerers tried to undo the warding spells that hold Chaos in check.

Giladis

04-03-2007, 15:49

I saw in some topic some months ago there were other Orc gods. So my question is who are they, what are their names and what they represent.

Arnizipal

04-03-2007, 17:43

Well, ther's Gork and Mork. One is brutally cunning and the other is cunningly brutal.

The only other Orc god I know about is Gogul, though he might be fan fiction.
He is the Orc god of death. All greenskins go to the afterlife (or Great Green) whether they lived good lives or not. Gogul makes sure they get there and stay there.
He is honoured before and after battle, just like Gork and Mork.

Eldacar

07-03-2007, 13:20

This is probably a very simple question. It talks about how the lands of Nagarythe were flooded or something and that's why they went to Naggaroth. I'm not sure I understand this, what was Nagarythe?
In addition to what Arnizipal mentioned, what's left of Nagarythe is still there - it's occasionally called the Shadowlands now, and is populated by the Shadow Warriors. Since it's Malekith's first port of call whenever he launches a new assault on Ulthuan, Nagarythe is generally the first line of defence.

CommanderCax

07-03-2007, 14:15

Apart from the mentioned Gork&Mork most Forest Goblins worship a (nameless?) spider god. I also somehow remember Bork, but I am not sure whether it is a god (there was a magic item called Sword of Bork...).

Dragonreaver

27-03-2007, 02:39

Do we know anything about Elithis?

The one named settlement on the island, Tor Elithis, would suggest that Elves discovered it, or perhaps inhabit it (although if the latter were true it wouldn't be "lost", would it? ¬_¬)

Also, which race (if any) inhabit the Badlands? It seems they'd be quite important. And if nobody of any great note actually lives there, it seems to be a rather obvious place for Chaos to seep into, thus cutting off Imperial trade with Araby.

boerk

27-03-2007, 06:34

CommanderCax

27-03-2007, 07:40

Magnus the Pious razed it to the ground after the Great Incursion of Chaos (2303 IC).

N0-1_H3r3

27-03-2007, 16:46

Also, which race (if any) inhabit the Badlands? It seems they'd be quite important. And if nobody of any great note actually lives there, it seems to be a rather obvious place for Chaos to seep into, thus cutting off Imperial trade with Araby.
The Badlands aren't generally hospitable - there's little in the way of edible plantlife, or soil suitable for farming, and isn't really an ideal place for anyone to settle.

Oh, and the place is full of Orc and Goblin tribes, which doesn't help matters.

Which is in turn why nobody else lives there if they can help it. The fact that it's just north of Khemri, and contains more than a few ancient Nehekharan ruins (tombs, ruined ancient settlements, etc) from where it was once part of the Nehekharan Empire doesn't help either.

So, in summary, two races dominate the borderlands. One of them is already dead. The other are Greenskins.

boerk

27-03-2007, 17:02

[Empire/Vampires]

Another question, I heard that in some Empire city, I think Altdorf, there's a hidden and secret vampire tavern. Is there any truth to this at all?

N0-1_H3r3

28-03-2007, 06:04

[Empire/Vampires]

Another question, I heard that in some Empire city, I think Altdorf, there's a hidden and secret vampire tavern. Is there any truth to this at all?
It's rumoured. We don't know one way or the other whether or not it actually exists. That's the response chosen by the author's of next month's Night's Dark Masters for WFRP, which deals with Vampires in the Old World.

In short, if you want it to exist in your version of the Empire, it exists. If you don't want it to exist, it doesn't. This is, of course, a more noteworthy decision for a WFRP gamesmaster, than for a player of either WFB or WFRP, though.

Jongrom Calasson

28-03-2007, 19:37

My question; who has Grimnir's seccond axe; Gotrek of the White Dwarf? I have heard both tales told, bu which is closer to the fluff?

Arnizipal

28-03-2007, 20:01

It used to be Gotrek, but now the White Dwarf has an Axe of Grimnir as well.

I'd say Gotrek is closer to the original background. The White Dwarf is more of a tongue in cheek reference to the magazine.

Jongrom Calasson

28-03-2007, 20:11

OK, thanks.

Q2; What god do Halflings worship?

Arnizipal

28-03-2007, 20:20

Esmeralda, godess of Home and Hearth IIRC.

Jongrom Calasson

28-03-2007, 20:41

Wow, thanks for your prompt answers.

I've just found an old word document of mine with a load more in! (I tend to write down lists of fluff questions when I'm bored)

- How old do Dwarfs get?
- How about Halflings?
- Is Bugman still alive in Warhammer's present day?
- How about Kragg the Grim?
- When was Lumpin born, and is he dead?
- Are all Warhammer Halflings in the Moot?
- What is Karak Vlag, the 'lost stronghold' on the Dwarf map?
- Why is there a hold, Kraka Drak, right up in Norsca?
- How do greenskins reproduce?

Soory for my inquisitive mind, and thanks for your help,

Jongrom

boerk

28-03-2007, 21:47

- Are all Warhammer Halflings in the Moot?

No, some live in cities, some are adventurers, and some are mercenaries. The Moot is just where the majority of the Halfling population lives, and probably a fair amount of the Halflings who don't live there were born there.

Arnizipal

28-03-2007, 21:55

- How old do Dwarfs get?

Dwarfs aren't considered adults until they're 30. From that age male Dwarfs begin their apprenticeship. When they're 70 they become Full Beards and can take on apprentices of their own. At 120 they become Long Beards.
At 150 they join the Elders of the clan.
Dwarfs become Great Beards when they turn 200. This about the normal life expectancy of a Dwarf. Those rare few that exceed the age of 400 are called Living Ancestors.

Dwarfs can live for a very long time if they feel they have unfininished business. High King Gotrek Starbreaker ruled for over 500 years during the War of the Beard and Kragg the Grimm is well over 1600 years old. His driving goal in life is finding an apprentice that meets his high demands so he can pass on his knowledge.

- How about Halflings?

A little older than humans if WFRP is anything to go by. Say somewhere between 110 and 125.

- Is Bugman still alive in Warhammer's present day?
- How about Kragg the Grim?

Could be. I can't remember reading of their deaths anywhere. And like I said, Dwarfs can live for a long time if they want to.

- When was Lumpin born, and is he dead?

Can't help you here. My Dogs of War knowledge is sorely lacking.

- Are all Warhammer Halflings in the Moot?

It's where most Halflings of the Empire live, yes. There are small enclaves of Halflings in most major cities in the Empire however.

- What is Karak Vlag, the 'lost stronghold' on the Dwarf map?

During the Chaos Incursion of 2301-2302 the Dwarf hold of Karak Vlag was besieged by Chaos forces and the other holds lost contact with it. After the war runners where sent to Karak Vlag to report on its situation, but they returned claiming there was nothing where Karak Vlag once was located. The entire hold had vanished without a trace.

- Why is there a hold, Kraka Drak, right up in Norsca?

During the Golden Age of the Dwarfs, when humans where little better than barbarians, the Dwarfs advanced from the south to the north through the World Edge Mountains. Eventually they settled where there were lots of ore and minerals to be found and set up holds for themselves. Some clans were a bit more adventureous and advanced even further. To the north and the east respectivly.

The Dwarf that went east settled in the Mountains of Mourn and those that went north constructed holds in the mountains of Norsca. When the Polar Gates collapsed the world was drowned in Chaos and Daemonic armies layed siege to just about every race. The Darfs in the north and the east lost contact with their kinsmen in the World's Edge. When Chaos was finally pushed back by the High Elves the Dwarfs tried to contact the lost clans.
They were met with hostility by the Dwarfs of the Mountains of Mourn, who in their desperation had turned to Chaos.
The Dwarfs of Norsca where a bit more forthcoming and are still allies of the Dwarfs in the World's Edge even though their culture and habits have grown apart quite a bit.

- How do greenskins reproduce?

Since 7th edition spores, unfortunatly. :(

Dragonreaver

29-03-2007, 03:17

What's the current date in the Warhammer timeline? I never did find out ¬_¬

N0-1_H3r3

29-03-2007, 17:37

What's the current date in the Warhammer timeline? I never did find out ¬_¬
Depends on who you ask. In the Empire, the date is 2522IC (IC stands for Imperial Calendar). The Dwarfs know it as 5522, as their calendar started three thousand years before that of the Empire. Bretonnians refer to the current year as 1544. To the High Elves, it's the 357th year of the Reign of Phoenix King Finubar the Seafarer...

And so forth.

Why is there a hold, Kraka Drak, right up in Norsca?
There are several, actually. Kraka Drak is the largest and best-known of the Norse Dwarf strongholds, but there are also Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ravnsvake and Kraka Ornsmotek. Arnizipal covers the reasons why. 'Kraka' is the Norse Dwarf word for 'Hold or Fortress', and a corruption of the Khazalid world 'Karak'.

boerk

29-03-2007, 22:06

[Vampires/anatomy]

This is a rather strange question I've been thinking about. Say someone was turned into a vampire, they'd become stronger and more powerful than a normal person. Due to the increase in strength would the person's muscles become stronger/bigger or is it more of a magical increase? Also, if a vampire was say weight lifting (or something similiar) would they be able to become stronger, would their muscle mass increase?

What sparked this was that vampires never seem to change much in physical appearance, but Blood Dragons are always fighting/training and given a vampire's life span would their muscles get bigger and thus make them larger?

Lord Zarkov

29-03-2007, 22:17

The strength increase is from their soul being locked inside every atom of their bodies so they are more in control of it than any mortal.

No their muscle mass wouldn't increase as their body doesn't change once they become vampires

Justicar Jacob

30-03-2007, 03:57

Who is Grimnir and what did he do?

N0-1_H3r3

30-03-2007, 06:05

Who is Grimnir and what did he do?
Grimnir was one of the three main Dwarfen ancestor gods, and is currently the Dwarfen god of warriors, and the patron of the Slayer Cult.

Grimnir's accomplishments in life - being an Ancestor God, he was supposedly a mortal Dwarf at some point, much as Sigmar was a living, breathing human being - are many and diverse. Notable moments include being the first Dwarf to encounter the High Elves, when his army butchered a force of daemons and beastmen that was besieging the Elven port-city of Sith Rionnasc'namishathir (Marienburg now stands on that location). Grimnir and Caledor Dragontamer - the Elven Mage leading the defences of Sith Rionnasc - spent many days in discussion, once the language barrier had been overcome, and eventually formed an alliance that lasted for over a thousand years.

Grimnir's other significant accomplishment was at the end of the First War against Chaos, when he handed one of his axes to his son, Morgrim (the axe now carried into battle by Thorgrim Grudgebearer), and marched north alone, intending to fight his way to the centre of the Chaos Wastes and close the gate. No-one knows how far he got, but the Dwarfs consider his sacrifice to be instrumental in stopping the Chaos Hordes, and many Slayers choose to emulate Grimnir's last act...

boerk

30-03-2007, 16:58

[Elves]
More questions from me.

- What is the curse of Aenarion, and what does it do? (Other than he drew the sword of Khaine and that's how it started.)

- There's the sword of khaine on the blighted isle, and Malus Darkblade had to find the warpsword of khaine. Are the swords somehow related?

- Is there a reason that High and Wood Elves use bows and the Dark Elves use repeater crossbows?

- Is anything known about the Mordheim character Aenur?

Arnizipal

30-03-2007, 22:56

- What is the curse of Aenarion, and what does it do? (Other than he drew the sword of Khaine and that's how it started.)

The Sword of Khaine is a cursed sword. It dooms all who wield it and in the case of Aenarion this was even passed on to his offspring. The curse works different for each individual. For example Teclis suffers from bad health whereas Tyrion can sometimes be brash and arrogant.

- There's the sword of khaine on the blighted isle, and Malus Darkblade had to find the warpsword of khaine. Are the swords somehow related?

The Sword of Khaine was forged for the Blood God by Vaul, god of smithing. It is not a weapon of the mortal realm. As far as I know the Warpsword of Khaine is just a weapon dedicated to this god.

- Is there a reason that High and Wood Elves use bows and the Dark Elves use repeater crossbows?

As far as I know there's no reason backgroundwise. It's purely to set them apart as races.

- Is anything known about the Mordheim character Aenur?
Some say he's a disgraced prince of Ulthuan.

Dragonreaver

30-03-2007, 23:44

whereas Tyrion can sometimes be brash and arrogant.

Wow, an elf that other elves call brash and arrogant, that must be something to behold :p

N0-1_H3r3

31-03-2007, 08:42

The Sword of Khaine is a cursed sword. It dooms all who wield it and in the case of Aenarion this was even passed on to his offspring. The curse works different for each individual. For example Teclis suffers from bad health whereas Tyrion can sometimes be brash and arrogant.
Tyrion's curse also includes bouts of unreasoning madness (normally controlled, but not always), and nightmares - he's actually slightly insane.

However, the distinction here is supposedly because Tyrion and Teclis are twins - each got half of their ancestor's greater qualities (Teclis' considerable intellect and raw arcane power, Tyrion's martial prowess, physical strength and charisma.) and the parts that they didn't inherit from Aenarion are the 'cursed' parts (Teclis' frail body, Tyrion's incipient madness).

The Curse of Aenarion springs not just from the Sword of Khaine, but from Aenarion's actions as a whole. As the first Phoenix King, Aenarion didn't just embody the virtues of Asuryan - the Elven god-king - he was a mortal vessel for Asuryan's power. It's sort of like being possessed by a really, really big and mostly benign Greater Daemon. Thus, he was immeasurably powerful, and ruled his people justly and nobly - because the divine voice in his head was helping him do so.

When the Chaos Incursion shook the world, Aenarion went to war, along with all his people - something they had never done, and never needed to do before, so they kind of learned warfare there and then, developing weapons and armour to fight the Daemons and beasts that surged through the world.

But this wasn't enough. So Aenarion drew the Sword of Khaine - no-one is entirely sure where it came from - and took Kaela Mensha Khaine, Elven god of warfare, murder and bloodshed, into himself.

One god serving as a tenant in your soul is doable... just. And only if you're of immensely strong will and great physical fortitude. Two gods taking up residence... two very different gods... that way leads madness. And power beyond everything else in the world. Greater Daemons were scared of him.

The curse of Aenarion is the legacy of that decision, the aftermath, passed down through those of his bloodline (primarily through his first son... his second son has his own foibles and quirks... being the seemingly immortal vengeance-fuelled ruler of Nagarroth), of choosing to have two gods cohabit within his brain.

lust_

31-03-2007, 17:43

(lizardmen)
were did all the gods of the warhammer world come from if it was the old ones that actuallly sculpted the world

boerk

31-03-2007, 17:49

But this wasn't enough. So Aenarion drew the Sword of Khaine - no-one is entirely sure where it came from - and took Kaela Mensha Khaine, Elven god of warfare, murder and bloodshed, into himself.

One god serving as a tenant in your soul is doable... just. And only if you're of immensely strong will and great physical fortitude. Two gods taking up residence... two very different gods... that way leads madness. And power beyond everything else in the world. Greater Daemons were scared of him.

The curse of Aenarion is the legacy of that decision, the aftermath, passed down through those of his bloodline (primarily through his first son... his second son has his own foibles and quirks... being the seemingly immortal vengeance-fuelled ruler of Nagarroth), of choosing to have two gods cohabit within his brain.

To my knowledge no one else has drawn the sword of Khaine, but any theories what could happen if an elf without a god living in them drew it? (Having Aenarion's bloodline or not.) Or what could happen if Malus Darkblade drew it?

N0-1_H3r3

31-03-2007, 19:57

To my knowledge no one else has drawn the sword of Khaine, but any theories what could happen if an elf without a god living in them drew it? (Having Aenarion's bloodline or not.) Or what could happen if Malus Darkblade drew it?
Well, part of Aenarion's problem was having two gods in his brain. Drawing the Sword of Khaine would invest any wielder with the power and will of Kaela Mensha Khaine... but that power might kill them (I can't imagine that people able to contain a god's power are particularly common), and most people would probably end up being controlled by Khaine...

At least in theory. I tend to think of it like daemonic possession on a vast scale - an unsuitable form will wither and crumble and die under the strain of containing all that power.

Arnizipal

31-03-2007, 20:18

(lizardmen)
were did all the gods of the warhammer world come from if it was the old ones that actuallly sculpted the world
From the Realm of Chaos (or Warp) as explained here. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9535)

boerk

08-04-2007, 23:34

[Elves/Gods]

Why is Khaine known as "the Bloody Handed God"? I know the reason in 40k, but I haven't been able to find anything explaining why in fantasy.

Arnizipal

08-04-2007, 23:46

Because he's the Elven god of war and bloodshed in general.

Wu Ming

09-04-2007, 18:01

More a question of texts over, proper lore. I have read numerous times that RoC: Slaves to Darkness has a vieled reference to deamonic servents aligned with Malal, 'Doomed Ones' some reptilian creatures with blades forged from the souls of Witch Hunters...

I have poured over my copy of RoC both StD and tL&tD and have been unable to locate the reference, I have convinced myself that I have read the passage but am now in doubt of that recolection. Can anyone verifiy this entry and direct me to the proper page and tome?

Many Thanks.

Wu Ming

10-04-2007, 20:03

I take it the Langktrommi are as vexed as myslef...

Arnizipal

10-04-2007, 20:35

I don't even own the volumes in question :(

Dark Hippie

10-04-2007, 20:39

Do you know what the fluff to the dark elf assassin's training is after he is selected to live after surviving the cauldren of blood? My first post by the way

Stouty

16-04-2007, 17:00

N0-1_H3r3

16-04-2007, 18:02

Hi Dark Hippie! Sorry, I've got no clue on that question. I've just come to ask another.

What direction do the winds of the 8 lores of magic flow from and what's there proper name (you know, it's not the wind of fire it's the wind of Az-something)?
All of the Aethyric Winds flow from the north - the enter the world from the Aethyr by passing through the ruined gateway in the Chaos Wastes.

Their runic names - the names that the Orders of Magic in the Empire, the Mages of the Elves, and the Sorcerers of Chaos know them by are as follows:

Lore of Fire - Aqshy
Lore of Shadow - Ulgu
Lore of Death - Shyish
Lore of Heavens - Azyr
Lore of Life - Ghyran
Lore of Beasts - Ghur
Lore of Metal - Chamon
Lore of Light - Hysh

Additionally, there are the two ways in which the winds of magic can be mixed - High Magic (where all eight winds are mixed in balance, as wielded by the High Elves) and Dark Magic (where the winds are unbalanced and stagnant, or are crushed together by a force of malice, such as a Dark Elf Sorceress; Dark Magic is the source of the magic wielded by the Skaven, by Necromancers, and by Chaos Sorcerers). Their runic names are listed below.

High Magic - Qhaysh
Dark Magic - Dhar

Stouty

16-04-2007, 18:52

CommanderCax

16-04-2007, 19:34

N0-1_H3r3

16-04-2007, 20:16

They come from the two crashed polar gateways and are mostly drawn to certain regions (eg. Aqshy is drawn to vulcanoes, Azyr to the high winds and Shyish to battlefields).
Anyway, large amounts of the winds are drawn towards the Vortex on Ulthuan and to the stone circles on Albion that somehow function like an outflow in a sink.

The opposing winds are more like

Shadow - Light
Fire - Life
Death - Metal
Beasts - Heaven

in my opinion.
As far as I know, the winds don't have 'opposite numbers' - they're all fragments of the same thing, and only come into being at the moment they enter the world. Before they've entered the world, they're just aethyric energy - formless, shapeless and rife with limitless unfulfilled potential.

Each of the Eight Winds - not literal winds, of course, but that's a common way of describing and perceiving them - embodies, and is drawn to, a range of concepts, substances and situations. For example, Aqshy is drawn to areas of heat and fire, but also to people who are angry or passionate. Shyish on the other hand is drawn to places where death has happened - battlefields, graveyards, gibbets - or that death has influenced, such as the homes of people mourning for a lost friend or family member. But it also gains in strength at dawn and dusk, which are respectivly the end of night, and the end of day... Shyish is about the natural ending of things.

However, the winds also flow in a matter artificially devised. The Great Vortex on Ulthuan, and the vortices on Albion are the end-points of a vast network of standing stones, stone circles and ley lines. All magic flows along these points, kept constantly in motion, agitated and distinct - if they stop moving, they may linger in a place, coalescing and stagnating into a pool of Dark Magic - until they eventually reach one or other of the Vortices, which draws the energy from the world.

The nature of magic is described in considerable depth in the WFRP sourcebook "Realms of Sorcery". If you're interested in the subject, I'd advise seeking out a copy - even if you don't play WFRP, two-thirds of the book is background material, written by Marijan von Staufer (author of the Liber Chaotica series, and the Liber Necris, and occasional poster on these forums).

CommanderCax

19-04-2007, 09:30

As far as I know, the winds don't have 'opposite numbers' - they're all fragments of the same thing, and only come into being at the moment they enter the world. Before they've entered the world, they're just aethyric energy - formless, shapeless and rife with limitless unfulfilled potential.

Well, at least they are depicted on opposing arrows within the eight pointed star of Chaos. Furthermore if you leave out the first associativites with the winds (ie. fire, metal, death etc.) and concentrate more on the meta-level and its influence, there are certain opposing elements.

Hysh is about illumination and enlightment - Ulgu is about befuddlement and deception

Aqshy is about aggression and destruction - Ghyran is about quietude and growth

Chamon is about logic and materialistism - Shyish is about transience and immaterial

Azyr is about the higher mind and abstract - Ghur is about intuition and tangible

N0-1_H3r3

19-04-2007, 17:29

Well, at least they are depicted on opposing arrows within the eight pointed star of Chaos. Furthermore if you leave out the first associativites with the winds (ie. fire, metal, death etc.) and concentrate more on the meta-level and its influence, there are certain opposing elements.
There will always be those opposing elements - a singular Wind of Magic theoretically contains one eighth of all the possibilities in the universe - because all eight winds combined in their natural state is a force of unlimited possibility. But those opposite elements are as much side-effects of the nature of the Winds of Magic as anything else.

Afterall, Hysh can represent detachment and dispassionate wisdom, which stands opposed to the passion of Aqshy. Chamon - logical, methodical and rational thought - could be opposed to Ghur - instinctive reactions.

This is one of the reasons why I said there were no specific opposites - because you can, if you look hard enough, treat any two of the eight winds as opposites.

CommanderCax

20-04-2007, 09:53

There will always be those opposing elements - a singular Wind of Magic theoretically contains one eighth of all the possibilities in the universe - because all eight winds combined in their natural state is a force of unlimited possibility. [...]
This is one of the reasons why I said there were no specific opposites - because you can, if you look hard enough, treat any two of the eight winds as opposites.

It is like with the four major Chaos Powers. They somehow encompass all the major emotions and still they form certain opposites. Khorne is opposite to Slaanesh and Tzeentch is opposite of Nurgle.
But none the less you can form opposites between Khorne (destructive, anti-magic) and Tzeentch (constructive, magic) as well as Slaanesh (pleasure and aspiration) and Nurgle (malaise and despair) if you look hard enough. This is because there is certainly more than a diametrical approach within the unlimited possibilities of Chaos, but it could be an underlying basis.

But those opposite elements are as much side-effects of the nature of the Winds of Magic as anything else.

Are they? Maybe they are not the side-effects, but the principal parts of the Winds of Magic. Maybe the whole Fire, Gold, Life elements are the side-effects, the side effects the aethyrical winds have upon a physical universe.
Maybe this emotive meta level of influence is the principal part of the Winds of Magic, as one should expect from the winds (ie. potential energy) coming from the Realm of Chaos (ie. an ocean of emotions).

Just a thought...

N0-1_H3r3

20-04-2007, 16:31

Are they? Maybe they are not the side-effects, but the principal parts of the Winds of Magic. Maybe the whole Fire, Gold, Life elements are the side-effects, the side effects the aethyrical winds have upon a physical universe.
Maybe this emotive meta level of influence is the principal part of the Winds of Magic, as one should expect from the winds (ie. potential energy) coming from the Realm of Chaos (ie. an ocean of emotions).
Actually, as far as we know, the Winds of Magic don't exist in the same form until they enter the material world - they gain their distinct qualities as an effect of entering the world (the formless adopts the concepts of a tangible world), rather than existing in that state in the Aethyr.

Thus, Aqshy doesn't exist as a force distinct from, say, Chamon until they enter the world, at which point they split and are twisted by contact with the structure of reality.

Thus, any and all of the concepts bound within any given wind of magic - from the primary and obvious, to the esoteric and philosophical - are side-effects of their presence in the world, functions and shapes and forms and ideas adopted as a result of the nature of that energy, rather than inherent traits.

Revlid

20-04-2007, 18:31

Actually, as far as we know, the Winds of Magic don't exist in the same form until they enter the material world - they gain their distinct qualities as an effect of entering the world (the formless adopts the concepts of a tangible world), rather than existing in that state in the Aethyr.

Thus, Aqshy doesn't exist as a force distinct from, say, Chamon until they enter the world, at which point they split and are twisted by contact with the structure of reality.

Thus, any and all of the concepts bound within any given wind of magic - from the primary and obvious, to the esoteric and philosophical - are side-effects of their presence in the world, functions and shapes and forms and ideas adopted as a result of the nature of that energy, rather than inherent traits.

In much the same way as a stream of water diverted evenly into different tanks isn't distinct until it enters those containers.
The metaphor works better if the tanks are filled with slow-acting colouring.

CommanderCax

21-04-2007, 11:24

Actually, as far as we know, the Winds of Magic don't exist in the same form until they enter the material world - they gain their distinct qualities as an effect of entering the world (the formless adopts the concepts of a tangible world), rather than existing in that state in the Aethyr.

Sure, that does not contradict anything I said. The winds certainly gain their distinction when coming from the polar gates and beforehand they cannot even be considered winds (or water for that matter..).
It is the potential of aethryc energy leaking into the physical world and thereby becoming split up, distinct in quality and known as Winds of Magic.

These Winds of Magic are often depicted as opposing arrows on the eight pointed star symbol of Chaos and their quality can be regarded as diametrical opposites to a certain degree. In the same way as the four major Chaos Powers can be considered opposites to a certain degree. And even their credo evolved through the presence of collective emotions of the inhabitants of the physical Warhammer World. Maybe these are also just 'side effects'. It is impossible to distinguish between 'side effect' or 'principal part' and does not really matter. They can be opposites regardless of when or where they gained their distinction or started to exist.

N0-1_H3r3

21-04-2007, 17:12

Sure, that does not contradict anything I said. The winds certainly gain their distinction when coming from the polar gates and beforehand they cannot even be considered winds (or water for that matter..).
It is the potential of aethryc energy leaking into the physical world and thereby becoming split up, distinct in quality and known as Winds of Magic.

These Winds of Magic are often depicted as opposing arrows on the eight pointed star symbol of Chaos and their quality can be regarded as diametrical opposites to a certain degree. In the same way as the four major Chaos Powers can be considered opposites to a certain degree. And even their credo evolved through the presence of collective emotions of the inhabitants of the physical Warhammer World. Maybe these are also just 'side effects'. It is impossible to distinguish between 'side effect' or 'principal part' and does not really matter. They can be opposites regardless of when or where they gained their distinction or started to exist.
But, conceptually, do they even need to have diametric opposites? What purpose does pairing them off in this manner serve? There's nothing to suggest, in any background I've read, that they have such defined opposites.

As it stands, I've never specifically seen the eight-pointed star specifically used to specifically denote Magic instead of Chaos, at least within a Warhammer context - a wheel or circle in eight segments is a far more common device (denoting eight parts of a whole, rather than distinct forces as the arrows of the eight-pointed star might be seen to imply).

Ashnari Doomsong

21-04-2007, 17:41

Besides, having such symmetry would be nothing short of order, you know.

Dreadaxe

08-05-2007, 22:17

[Mordheim/Empire]

After Mordheim was hit by the comet and the warpstone craze passed, what happened to the city? I've seen "Ruins of Mordheim" on Empire maps, but other than it wasn't rebuilt I don't know anything.

Magnus the Pious razed it to the ground after the Great Incursion of Chaos (2303 IC).

It's the Great Theogonist and Knights Orders d'according the last Empire Army Book. Graham McNeil have create a little incoherence.

Arnizipal

09-05-2007, 17:59

It's the Great Theogonist and Knights Orders d'according the last Empire Army Book. Graham McNeil have create a little incoherence.
Magnus could still have been with them, just unmentioned.

Dreadaxe

09-05-2007, 22:59

Magnus could still have been with them, just unmentioned.

:eyebrows: Maybe...

Lord Zarkov

11-05-2007, 13:00

Or it could have been the Theoginist and the Knights doing the razing, but under Magnus' orders

Nineswords

24-05-2007, 10:04

Hmmm... I was sure that they had directions, but yes they should all be coming from the polar gates I guess. Shame. I was trying to work out which lores were opposites. How does this sound to people.

Shadow-Light
Death-Life
Beasts-Metal
Fire-Heavens

Not sure about the last pair...

And thankyou NO-1 H3R3 for the names so quickly :D

Qhaysh and Dhar are diametric opposites to each other, however the important distinction between these two and the others is that Qhaysh and Dhar are the combined properties of all the winds of magic. Hence Qhaysh is known as 'High Magic', a creative force, which it can be compared to a white light. When you put a prism to it, it will split into all the separate winds of magic, whilst Dhar is 'Dark Magic', a destructive force comprised of all the magics stagnating in a pool, flowing like tar until it solidifies into the substance known as Warpstone.

Since both are the combined elements of the winds of Magic, it takes a great force of will to master the intricacies of both, from the highly attuned and focused minds of the Asur and the Slann to the sheer force of will to dominate Dhar with the Druchii. No human can wield the power of Dhar or Qhaysh, hence when Teclis formed the colleges of magic, each order was founded to master a different wind of Magic.

Twisted Ferret

25-05-2007, 23:56

[Magic?]

No human can wield the power of Dhar or Qhaysh, hence when Teclis formed the colleges of magic, each order was founded to master a different wind of Magic.
So there has never been a human mage able to do this - even the mightiest? Even the weakest Elven mage will overpower the greatest archmage, or is raw power a different measurement? Where does Chaos magic fit in; would a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch be able to use Dhar, for instance?

Chiron

26-05-2007, 00:05

No human can wield the power of Dhar or Qhaysh, hence when Teclis formed the colleges of magic, each order was founded to master a different wind of Magic.

I thought the necromatic lore used Dhar magic? The problem with it is that it corrupts and generally screws you over, hence the high levels of madness and mutation in wielders of the magic

Angelwing

26-05-2007, 01:45

I thought the necromatic lore used Dhar magic? The problem with it is that it corrupts and generally screws you over, hence the high levels of madness and mutation in wielders of the magic

dark magic users are protected by their patron gods. necromancers channel the energy into their undead so being one step removed, but not safe.

stormblade

26-05-2007, 20:48

So humans not only can use Dhar but can also use it very well(You can hardly call Nagash incapable of using the Dark Magic)

N0-1_H3r3

26-05-2007, 21:10

So humans not only can use Dhar but can also use it very well(You can hardly call Nagash incapable of using the Dark Magic)
Yes, but the issue is that Dhar is inherently dangerous and highly corrupting. All human attempts to use the inherently superior Qhaysh have generally resulted in them using Dhar instead, simply because the human mind isn't capable of wielding magic to a precise enough degree that they can weave the winds of magic together in a balanced manner. It takes Elves centuries to learn how to wield it, and they're both more naturally adept at magic, and have the time to learn how to wield it... humans have neither of those advantages.

Further, while they can make use of Dhar easily enough, it still pales compared to the raw power that Dark Elf Sorceresses wield with their True Dhar (where regular Dhar is stagnant and corrupt magic drawn from indiscriminate sources, often clumsily or unknowingly, True Dhar is all eight winds crushed together by insane force of will, and one of the single most destructive forces known to mortals).

The most successful users of Dhar do so through a proxy - daemonic patrons (as Dark Elves often do), the chaos gods (as per Chaos Sorcerers), warpstone (the Skaven, plus some others), or, in the case of Necromancers, by wielding Shyish, and using it as an intermediate 'layer' of magic between the Necromancer and the vile, corrosive energies of Dhar - sort of like using thick, lead-lined protective gloves to handle plutonium.

Nineswords

26-05-2007, 21:46

My bad, Humans can use Dhar but with devastating side effects, the Dark Elves seem to be the only race who can use it with little side effects.

Stouty

27-05-2007, 01:33

Sorry, I can't help my immaturity at times. I was reading all this about the mastery of the 8 winds (very enlightening, by the way, much appreciated) and all I can think

"Yeah, you elves might have hundreds of years of mastery behind you but 1 time in 36 a lvl 1 firewizard is still going to toast your tough 3 ass:evilgrin: "

Apologies

Eldacar

27-05-2007, 02:03

the Dark Elves seem to be the only race who can use it with little side effects.
Dark Elves suffer side effects, it just takes slightly longer to manifest. Malekith, for example, shows all the classic results of wielding Dhar for too long - megalomania, insanity, and so on.

Drasanil

28-05-2007, 20:47

Dark Elves suffer side effects, it just takes slightly longer to manifest.

Yes and no, they seem to be affected differently than humans, while humans experience both mental and physical corruption as a side affect of wielding Dhar(which is just careless use of mutiple winds). Elves seem are apparently able to wield True Dhar(all eight winds smooshed together to the point that they become indistinguishable) with only long term psychological affects.

Malekith, for example, shows all the classic results of wielding Dhar for too long - megalomania, insanity, and so on.

Yup, although it's debatable as to whether it's a side affect of wielding True Dhar or a prerequisite for it, RoS states that one needs to be possessed of a will of iron and supreme self-confidence found only in the border-line insane or truely insane to wield True Dhar to any significant affect.

Also wielders of True Dhar (and Qhaysh for that matter) are so far beyond simple colour magic wielders (not represented on the table top for balance reasons*spits*) and normal mortals that developping a god complex wouldn't be entirely unreasonable considering they are right up there in the same bad-@ss catagories as vampire lords, and deamon princes.

Now as for the Nagash argument... in all honesty he isn't really half as great as people make him out to be he did have a mountain of warpstone to fuel his powers, and if it weren't for Amon'Chkai(SP?) guiding him, he'd still be some two-bit lichpriest with ambitions far beyond his reach.

N0-1_H3r3

28-05-2007, 22:34

Elves seem are apparently able to wield True Dhar(all eight winds smooshed together to the point that they become indistinguishable) with only long term psychological affects.
And, in all fairness, those long-term psychological effects - generally delusions of grandeur, megalomania and similar - tend to help you wield True Dhar anyway, as it takes a frankly insane degree of self-confidence and force of personality to be able to wrestle it into a desired shape effectively.

Also wielders of True Dhar (and Qhaysh for that matter) are so far beyond simple colour magic wielders (not represented on the table top for balance reasons*spits*)
You think you got it bad? We haven't even got rules for them in WFRP, because such magic is far beyond anything a regular Imperial Magister can even attempt to wield...

Though, given how powerful the likes of Greater Daemons and Vampire Lords have turned out to be, we might get a true look at Qhaysh and True Dhar when the planned-to-be-written-eventually Elf sourcebook comes out...

Now as for the Nagash argument... in all honesty he isn't really half as great as people make him out to be he did have a mountain of warpstone to fuel his powers, and if it weren't for Amon'Chkai(SP?) guiding him, he'd still be some two-bit lichpriest with ambitions far beyond his reach.
As humans go, Nagash was something of a prodigy. Of course, he had to stop being human to achieve anywhere near that level of power, much as Vampires can be much, much more potent Necromancers than humans... which tells you something about how powerful a human spellcaster can be. In regards to magic, being human is a limitation - though clearly not as much a limitation as being a Dwarf or Halfling.

malisteen

28-05-2007, 22:54

And here I thought Nagash bloody well invented necromancy, as a way to mitigate the corrupting influence of the true Dark Magic that he learned at metaphorical knife-point from dark elf captives.

As for his greatness, a mountain of warpstone on your side is an awesome power boost, no doubt. But being able to competantly direct and control the flow of dark magic released necessary to animate and control the carcasses of every member of an entire civilization who had ever lived, is pretty significant, and would certainly have put him up among the most significant spellcasters in Warhammer World history then living. Maybe not on the same tier as second gen Slaan, but certainly up there.

Of course, he hasn't been that powerful since, and may not be on the same level now. But I think it's telling that with a single spell he basically created an entire Warhammer faction from nothing but dead bodies and warpstone.

N0-1_H3r3

29-05-2007, 06:11

And here I thought Nagash bloody well invented necromancy, as a way to mitigate the corrupting influence of the true Dark Magic that he learned at metaphorical knife-point from dark elf captives.
Actually, he invented Necromancy in order to cheat death and defy the Gods. Dark Magic was a means to that end, because the magic he wielded as a priest was insufficient for the task he intended of it.

As for his greatness, a mountain of warpstone on your side is an awesome power boost, no doubt. But being able to competantly direct and control the flow of dark magic released necessary to animate and control the carcasses of every member of an entire civilization who had ever lived, is pretty significant, and would certainly have put him up among the most significant spellcasters in Warhammer World history then living. Maybe not on the same tier as second gen Slaan, but certainly up there.
Sure, but he had to cease being a living, breathing human being in order to achieve that - his power and strength of will in undeath is virtually unmatched... but he stopped being human long before he slew and animated an entire civilisation.

Of course, he hasn't been that powerful since, and may not be on the same level now. But I think it's telling that with a single spell he basically created an entire Warhammer faction from nothing but dead bodies and warpstone.
Sure, but that degree of power was essentially an isolated incident - he spent centuries building up to that point, and was defeated not long after, his corporeal form destroyed by a Skaven weapon wielded by an imprisoned king. He then spent the next two millennia coalescing into a body, before marching north to reclaim a couple of missing artefacts of his, and got smashed into the floor by Sigmar.

No-one has seen Nagash since, though its assumed that he's rebuilding himself again.

Eldacar

29-05-2007, 09:04

Elves seem are apparently able to wield True Dhar(all eight winds smooshed together to the point that they become indistinguishable) with only long term psychological affects.
Which is still side effects, as I said. Not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing (or neither) here. :p

Yup, although it's debatable as to whether it's a side affect of wielding True Dhar or a prerequisite for it, RoS states that one needs to be possessed of a will of iron and supreme self-confidence found only in the border-line insane or truely insane to wield True Dhar to any significant affect.
IMO, it's a case of insanity feeding insanity. Users of True Dhar are probably going to be at least along the road to insanity already, but usage of the power will corrupt them further and magnify the effects.

Arnizipal

29-05-2007, 15:00

Now as for the Nagash argument... in all honesty he isn't really half as great as people make him out to be he did have a mountain of warpstone to fuel his powers, and if it weren't for Amon'Chkai(SP?) guiding him, he'd still be some two-bit lichpriest with ambitions far beyond his reach.
First I heard of that. Where is this mentioned (the Changer of Ways bit I mean)?

Drasanil

30-05-2007, 01:49

First I heard of that. Where is this mentioned (the Changer of Ways bit I mean)?

If I remember correctly I read it in the 5th eddition chaos heroes book. Unfortunately, I never actualy bought a copy of it and as such I'm rellying purely on memory.

malisteen

30-05-2007, 02:33

Sure, but he had to cease being a living, breathing human being in order to achieve that - his power and strength of will in undeath is virtually unmatched... but he stopped being human long before he slew and animated an entire civilisation.

This is true, I'll give you that. But as a human Nagash had the potential to become what he later was. So a human can do these things, they have to give up their humanity in the process.

Nagash remains by far the coolest evil overlord in all of Warhammer Fantasy fluff. If they hadn't kicked him to the curb in 6th edition, I'd probably still be playing some form of undead.

stormblade

30-05-2007, 07:55

Do you people actually think that Malekith can still be considered an elf(or Teclis for that matter).

They transcended elfdom and became something else- he is changed by the energies he wields and sees the world much differently than before(same goes for Teclis)- one some creature becomes a mage its viewpoint changes dramatically so one might argue that an elven mage is no longer an elf either.

I do not see "he is no longer human" argument as valid and think of both Vampires and necromancers as still human.

Eldacar

30-05-2007, 08:31

But as a human Nagash had the potential to become what he later was.
Er... no he didn't. He had to become a Liche to gain the power necessary, because as a human, he wasn't and could never be strong enough.

Do you people actually think that Malekith can still be considered an elf(or Teclis for that matter).
Of course they're still Elves. They're just Elves with more magical ability than others. They didn't "transcend" anything.

CommanderCax

30-05-2007, 09:36

Er... no he didn't. He had to become a Liche to gain the power necessary, because as a human, he wasn't and could never be strong enough.

But he had the potential and the capability to become a Liche and a very powerful being thereby. He did it by himself unlike vampires for example that evolved to what they are by some outer influence (ie. Blood Kiss). He takes the full responsibility for trascending into the 'Dark Evil Overlord of ze Undead'. Even the most powerful Champions of Chaos are dependent on the whimsical nature of the Ruinous Powers to 'evolve'.

Of course they're still Elves. They're just Elves with more magical ability than others. They didn't "transcend" anything.

In my opinion Malekith transcended into something more than a 'normal' Elf by being touched and rejected by the Flames of Asuryan. It not only touched and warped his body, but also his mind and his soul to the very foundations in the process. He became far more than Bob the Elf from next door.
Teclis (like Tyrion) on the other hand was and is 'more' than the 'normal' Elf since the beginning of his very existence due to his ancestors curse. In his case it is also body and soul that are kind of warped due to this sort of 'divine touch'.
So in a way they are beyond the capabilities of the usual Elf due to the special cirumstances that led to their existence.

Eldacar

30-05-2007, 09:57

But he had the potential and the capability to become a Liche and a very powerful being thereby.
The Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges has the potential to become a Liche if he goes through with it.

It was the change that allowed Nagash to go further than what a 'normal' human would be capable of - what he would be capable of. He'd only be able to reach a certain level of ability as a human, so becoming a Liche did in a way free him from human limitations of power.

So in a way they are beyond the capabilities of the usual Elf due to the special cirumstances that led to their existence.
I don't see how that differs in a major way from what I said (I wasn't counting Tyrion, just Teclis, which is why I said 'magical'). They're Elves with abilities that go beyond the average Elf. Transcending 'Elfhood' would, IMO, involve becoming something completely different, such as Sigmar and godhood, for example. And neither Tyrion nor Teclis have done anything like that. Malekith has managed to become an immortal, but he's still an Elf at heart.

stormblade

30-05-2007, 12:24

CommanderCax

30-05-2007, 12:57

The Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges has the potential to become a Liche if he goes through with it.

Not sure about that actually.
The term Liche was originally used for any undead spell-caster. Nowadays it seem to be restricted to certain (undead) magic users from a Nehekharan background.
Anyway, Nagash is unique in what he is and what he became. Calling him 'just' a Liche somehow diminsh his status and uiniqueness. I furthermore doubt that any human has the potential to become what he became.

It was the change that allowed Nagash to go further than what a 'normal' human would be capable of - what he would be capable of. He'd only be able to reach a certain level of ability as a human, so becoming a Liche did in a way free him from human limitations of power.

But he had this potential from the beginning. He had to reach this level to be able to go further and become a 'Liche' (or however you want to call it). He had to change by himself. It was his ability and willpower as a human that bound his soul to his body. It was not some kind of outer intervention that changed him.
Your argumentation suggests any powerfull spell-caster (e.g. the Supreme Patriarch) can become a 'Liche' and any 'Liche' has the capability to reach the power level of Nagash. That I doubt.

I don't see how that differs in a major way from what I said (I wasn't counting Tyrion, just Teclis, which is why I said 'magical'). They're Elves with abilities that go beyond the average Elf. Transcending 'Elfhood' would, IMO, involve becoming something completely different, such as Sigmar and godhood, for example. And neither Tyrion nor Teclis have done anything like that. Malekith has managed to become an immortal, but he's still an Elf at heart.

You are right as we do not even differ in a major way. Perhaps the term 'transcend' is a bit misleading. It is just that in my opinion through being touched and rejected by the Flame of Asuryan Malekith was changed to the bone. Not only bodily but also mentally and spiritually. He is surely an Elf by heart, but he is also more. His spirit-self certainly shifted in the aethyr by this divine touch/rejection in a weird way so to speak. He is as much a half-god as beings like Ariel maybe.
Tyrion and Teclis surely did not transcended. But they were more than just an Elf from their birth, as their whole line is touched/cursed by Aenarion drawing the Widowmaker. So even they have more potential than the average Elf and differ mentally, bodily and spirtually. Their spirit-selves are certainly somehow linked to the warp powers known as Asuryan and/or Khaine to a degree.

Eldacar

30-05-2007, 14:02

Anyway, Nagash is unique in what he is and what he became. Calling him 'just' a Liche somehow diminsh his status and uiniqueness.
I don't really think so. He's the strongest Liche, and was pretty much the first one, too, so he's got enough claim to uniqueness without piling more on top of him.

He had to change by himself. It was his ability and willpower as a human that bound his soul to his body. It was not some kind of outer intervention that changed him.
Your argumentation suggests any powerfull spell-caster (e.g. the Supreme Patriarch) can become a 'Liche' and any 'Liche' has the capability to reach the power level of Nagash. That I doubt.
I don't really see why not, given enough time, magical boosts (hand, crown) and warpstone. As to powerful spellcasters becoming Liches, again, why not? It doesn't diminish Nagash being the first (and because of his age, lore and learning, the strongest). I just don't see any reason to make him out as more than what he was/is - and what he was is the first and (to date) strongest of the Liches by virtue of his age, learning and experience with wielding magic.

"Strongest" is perhaps a misleading term, though. Nagash is leagues ahead of even the number two claimant to the spot (Zacharias, I think). While it may be theoretically possible to eventually catch up to Nagash at his height, the reality of it ever happening is impossibly small.

It is just that in my opinion through being touched and rejected by the Flame of Asuryan Malekith was changed to the bone. Not only bodily but also mentally and spiritually. He is surely an Elf by heart, but he is also more. His spirit-self certainly shifted in the aethyr by this divine touch/rejection in a weird way so to speak. He is as much a half-god as beings like Ariel maybe.
I think we'd have to agree to disagree here. I never really saw anything from Malekith that would lead me to believe he's like Ariel. He's certainly managed to figure out how to become immortal, but being rejected by a god shouldn't, IMO, change him in the manner you're suggesting. He bears scars that will probably never heal (if they could be healed, then IMO they would have been already), but beyond that, I don't see much evidence to put him in a 'transcended' class with Ariel and the like. He isn't even unkillable - Teclis has done it before, though you could argue that since his soul survived, it wasn't death per se.

But they were more than just an Elf from their birth, as their whole line is touched/cursed by Aenarion drawing the Widowmaker.
Again, just Elves with more bells and whistles. :p

To use Ariel and Orion, that's what I'd note as 'transcended', or 'beyond mere Elves', given that they're pretty much nothing like Elves beyond a resemblance now. Tyrion and Teclis have a powerful destiny (bells) and associated abilities that put them ahead of other Elves (whistles), but they're still Elves - ditto for Malekith. Maybe 'meta-Elves' would be a better term for them.

Arnizipal

30-05-2007, 15:35

Elf as in I summon demons and consort with witches( mommy) and sacrifice elves, dwarves and men alike to whatever and whomever just to get my throne.

Malekith stinks of chaos through and through, if I didn't know better I would call him a servant of the Undevided.

Elves summoning deamons doesn't make them anything else then Elves summoning deamons. ;)

Witch is just a name for an evil, female spellcaster. Evil is a vague concept in Warhammer. What humans call a witch is a Dark Elf priestess to others.

Lizardmen sacrifice captives to the Old Ones. Does that make them servants of Chaos?

Also, Malekith bows to nobody, mortal or god. He doesn't worship Chaos, he just uses it to further his ends (as most Dark Elf sorceresses).

But my point is that (as somebody says in LOTR I think) wizards are a race on their own(in LOTR they are but still). Their ability to see or sense the winds gives them a brand, new viewpoint of the world and the more they rise in power the more "alien" to their origins they become.
At best you can say spellcasters are a form of muntant, because they are born with their affinity for magic. They are not a different race like in Lord of the Rings (where they are some form of angels).

I don't really think so. He's the strongest Liche, and was pretty much the first one, too, so he's got enough claim to uniqueness without piling more on top of him.
Wasn't the entire Mortuary Cult priesthood made of of liches?
Or was that only after Nagash was driven away?

He isn't even unkillable - Teclis has done it before, though you could argue that since his soul survived, it wasn't death per se.

Malekith has never died to my recollection. Fleeing through the realm of Chaos is quite unhealty, but it didn't kill the Witch King.

stormblade

30-05-2007, 16:53

Well, it's just me seeing the Asur as an "ideal" type of elf so anything that strays from that is a bit less "elfy".

Because if you look at the high elves and their view of chaos you can easily deduce that DE take a bit too much lee- way.(especially their beloved king)

I never said that Malekith worships chaos- I said he serves it, although he probably thinks of it more as a trade rather than servitude.
I just don't think that one can mess around with the Four Powers without being tricked, used and, ultimately, corrupted, by them.

N0-1_H3r3

30-05-2007, 17:19

I do not see "he is no longer human" argument as valid and think of both Vampires and necromancers as still human.
A Vampire is no longer human. This is not a matter of perception, but a truth of their nature. The mere fact that a Vampire can wield Necromancy naturally, easily and without any of the risks of physical degradation that afflict human Necromancers is proof enough of their inhumanity (A Vampire requires nothing more than inclination, study and practise to learn to control his innate necromantic powers, unlike a human, who must have some degree of magical aptitude as well).

Necromancers - depends on the individual. Their humanity proves to be a limitation to their magical ability, up until the point where they cease being alive and become undead (lichedom - Liches come in all shapes and sizes, from merely being a dead but otherwise unremarkable necromancer, right up to Nagash himself, who might be considered an uberliche).

stormblade

30-05-2007, 20:54

human Necromancers is proof enough of their inhumanity.
I'm not sure about that- you might also say fear of heights that some native American tribes seem to lack also separates them from being human.

They are no longer "just human" but in their essence they are still human.
They still feel the need for human companionship and in order to keep their sanity they need human blood. Ultimately they still(mostly) think like humans(they only tend to be more knowledgeable due to their experience) so all in all they are human.

Lord Zarkov

30-05-2007, 21:13

I don't really think so. He's the strongest Liche, and was pretty much the first one, too, so he's got enough claim to uniqueness without piling more on top of him.

I don't really see why not, given enough time, magical boosts (hand, crown) and warpstone. As to powerful spellcasters becoming Liches, again, why not? It doesn't diminish Nagash being the first (and because of his age, lore and learning, the strongest). I just don't see any reason to make him out as more than what he was/is - and what he was is the first and (to date) strongest of the Liches by virtue of his age, learning and experience with wielding magic.

Nagash's ascention was really a number of unique events, never neared for or since.

Having started off as a standard Mortuary Priest (and having achieved functional immortality), he was then able to work out how to utilise Dark Magic simply by torturing it out of a drugged up DE Sorceress and adapt it to improve his Mortuary Cult rituals and eventually develop Elixier of Life Mk I. Having been chucked out of Khemri he then went into the desert, died and wandered about abit in spirit form, then made the unprecidented step of reinhabiting his dead body and driving it foward with merely his willpower, before later discovering said mounbain of warpstone and making his tools. While their though, not only did he invent his own blend of magic, but with his arts and guidence the Elixier of Life Mk II was created which then made the Vampires by removing their souls from the aether upon drinking.

After this point his achievements can be put down to resources, but his progress beforehand required an uniquely iron willpower and a strong enough aptitude for magic that he was able to maipulate Dhar for his experiments, long before becoming Undead. (remember the mortuary priests were still living until the Spell of Awakening, and that Nagash himself wasn't truly undead until his episode in the desert.)

Also, aside from Nagash himself (and one other rather odd exception), there has been only three ways to achieve liche hood:
1) To be a living mortuary priest upon the casting of the Great Spell (creating most liche priests)
2) To be a dead mortaury priest (maybe limited to those who drunk EoLMk1), e.g. Arkhan
3) To use the arts Nagash created to hold onto not only your soul after natural death, but also cast spells upon your body to maintain it and keep your soul attached (i.e 'standard' liches, note the high faliure rate)

The Only expections being Nagash himself and (oddly enough) Lord Kroak (who strangely fuffils the criteria for being a liche, but without using dark magic)

Both of these held onto their existance by sheer force of will (and not a little bit of magical aid), but (until munching on warpstone) Nagash still had flesh on his body that didn't rot and he is in a state of awareness far above any otehr slaan, and posibly above Kroak, his powers also didn'y decrease with death, whereas Kroak's did (although I would say Kroak is still, and ahs always been far more powerful)

The fact that Nagash pulled a stunt beyond what even most lower generation slaan can do, just shows how special a person he was

Chiron

30-05-2007, 23:29

1) To be a living mortuary priest upon the casting of the Great Spell (creating most liche priests)

I was under the impression from Liber Necris and the TK book that the liche priests were alive, thanks to the rituals they had already established for prolonging life but not the body, which gives them the appearance of dried old corpses

Eldacar

31-05-2007, 01:47

Malekith has never died to my recollection. Fleeing through the realm of Chaos is quite unhealty, but it didn't kill the Witch King.
His physical body was effectively destroyed, so I'd count it as a death. Not a true death, though, since he survived it (obviously).

@Zarkov: Er... what of it? I just think that Nagash being the oldest, wisest, most experienced and consequently the strongest (by far) of Liches is enough uniqueness without attaching some sort of special destiny or the like to him.

Arnizipal

31-05-2007, 15:46

His physical body was effectively destroyed, so I'd count it as a death. Not a true death, though, since he survived it (obviously).

Err... excuse me for being dumb but how did he get his body back then?

I don't have the 5th edition High Elf armybook and all the Dark Elf armybook tells me is that he lost the battle of the Finuval Plain and fled through the realm of Chaos.

N0-1_H3r3

31-05-2007, 17:32

I'm not sure about that- you might also say fear of heights that some native American tribes seem to lack also separates them from being human.
I might, but probably not. Mainly because they're two different things. Lacking a fear of heights is psychological... whereas a Vampire's inhumanity is magical and a lot more tangible.

A Vampire is no longer human. They might still appear that way, and retain enough of their personality to act human, but they're not human. Their abilities - innate abilities at that - and weaknesses are able demonstrations of the fact that they've been altered on a fundamental level. They are, for instance, dead, yet are stronger and faster and more resilient than they were when alive.

Humans who choose to wield Dark Magic - in any form - suffer physical and mental degradation from channelling that magic. Most creatures do, in fact. Vampires don't - they can use Necromancy without risking those drawbacks. They can also achieve degrees of power unattainable by humans - primarily by merit of the fact that their bodies are suffused with magic.

Ashnari Doomsong

31-05-2007, 17:33

Yes, he was blasted and retreated to the Warp to treat with the Daemons. I'd say he managed to bring his dying body through with him, though - the details are unclear, IIRC. Either that, or they brought it along with them and it turned out that he managed to repossess it.

He was being blasted with the mother of all Fury of Khaines at the time, though.

Arnizipal

31-05-2007, 17:53

What is the actual quote? There' s adifference between being blasted with magic and being incinerated/disintegrated after all.

stormblade

31-05-2007, 18:45

I might, but probably not. Mainly because they're two different things. Lacking a fear of heights is psychological... whereas a Vampire's inhumanity is magical and a lot more tangible.

A Vampire is no longer human. They might still appear that way, and retain enough of their personality to act human, but they're not human. Their abilities - innate abilities at that - and weaknesses are able demonstrations of the fact that they've been altered on a fundamental level. They are, for instance, dead, yet are stronger and faster and more resilient than they were when alive.

Humans who choose to wield Dark Magic - in any form - suffer physical and mental degradation from channeling that magic. Most creatures do, in fact. Vampires don't - they can use Necromancy without risking those drawbacks. They can also achieve degrees of power unattainable by humans - primarily by merit of the fact that their bodies are suffused with magic.

- But then vampires would be some sort of 'magic mutants'- that is humans infused with strong magical energies, so they would still be "sort of" humans.

Lord Zarkov

31-05-2007, 21:06

Read the Chapter on 'Vampirism' and on 'the Nature & Price of Immortality' of Liber Necris they goe into great detail to explain the differences between Vampires and Humans, both physical and psychological.

All in all though, they are no longer humans by any way you would define humans, and are prehaps even futher away than say dwarfs who at least can relate more with a human.

malisteen

31-05-2007, 22:12

But a human can become a vampire, and a human cannot become a dwarf. The 'humans can't use Dhar' 'but what about these humans?' 'those aren't really humans' argument suffers from the 'No True Scottsman' fallacy. The NTSF goes like this:

A) No Scottsman takes suger in his porradge
B) But I'm a Scottsman and I take sugar in my porradge!
A) No True Scottsman takes sugar in his porradge.

You can see how silly it is.

If liches and vampires can use Dhar, and if they were humans, then humans have within them the potential to use Dhar. They may have to go through more elaborate steps to get there, and may have to give up some of the things that make them human, but it's within their potential reach.

Arnizipal

31-05-2007, 23:31

Humans can use Dhar just fine. Well, not fine exactly but they can use it none the less.

MvS

01-06-2007, 01:19

Indeed.

What was the question again?

Eldacar

01-06-2007, 03:01

Err... excuse me for being dumb but how did he get his body back then?

I don't have the 5th edition High Elf armybook and all the Dark Elf armybook tells me is that he lost the battle of the Finuval Plain and fled through the realm of Chaos.
Are we allowed to give the exact quote or are there copyright issues? In any case, he got hit by a supercharged Fury of Khaine and fled into the Warp to preserve his life. Because he was effectively destroyed (whatever happened exactly, he still had to flee into the Realm of Chaos to avoid being completely obliterated), I class it as a 'death', much like I class Nagash's defeat by Sigmar as a death. It didn't kill him, obviously, since he's still around.

Dargon

01-06-2007, 04:56

I don't have the 5th edition High Elf armybook and all the Dark Elf armybook tells me is that he lost the battle of the Finuval Plain and fled through the realm of Chaos.The full details of Malekith's "demise" are open to interpretation...

Back in earier editions, back when the Warhammer magic phase still used cards, there was a special magic card you could draw called "Escape". If a wizard was slain, you could play the card to return the wizard to life (in the game he was placed 6" away from a board edge with 1W). I don't think it's ever really been clarified what this "Escape" specifically details within the narrative, whether the Warp is used to physically teleport away an instant before a threat becomes fatal, or if the body is destroyed and only the spirit escapes and somehow recontitutes into a solid form when re-entering the material plane. Nevertheless, this specific Magic Card is what Malekith's escape tries to represent. I've never read the 4th Edition Dark Elf book, so can't say if it details what exactly happened to Malekith, and if he actually died or not. The 4th and 5th Edition High Elf Books don't clarify anything.

Just a thought...

Arnizipal

01-06-2007, 15:01

Are we allowed to give the exact quote or are there copyright issues? In any case, he got hit by a supercharged Fury of Khaine and fled into the Warp to preserve his life.
That could just mean he was badly wounded and needed immidiate medical attention.

EDIT: I also don't think they're that strict on quotes. It happens all the time on the Rules forum.

Angelwing

01-06-2007, 15:19

That could just mean he was badly wounded and needed immidiate medical attention.

EDIOT: I also don't think they're that strict on quotes. It happens all the time on the Rules forum.
"the blast descended on him, burning into his very soul. At the final moment he was forced to cast himself into the Realm of Chaos to avoid final and utter death."

5th ed high elf book.

Eldacar

01-06-2007, 15:34

I also don't think they're that strict on quotes. It happens all the time on the Rules forum.
Eh, I just remember Dargon quoting the 5th edition Skaven book once, and as a result was told not to do it.

Angelwing got the quote, though.

Arnizipal

01-06-2007, 16:31

Doesn't seem like he died to me. It probably hurt like hell and if he hadn't fled it would have killed him but I see no reason why his body would have been destroyed.

Eldacar

02-06-2007, 03:28

I don't see any reason why his body wouldn't be destroyed - the blast went right into his soul, and although it might just be figurative, there's usually a body in between the soul and magical assaults like that. :p

Arnizipal

02-06-2007, 13:20

Lots of things can be done to a soul with no apparent outside damage to a body. Soulfire supposedly sets your soul on fire, Steal Soul and Soul Stealer drain it without destroying your body.

Eldacar

02-06-2007, 14:31

Fury of Khaine never struck me as the type of attack to ignore the body of a person and target their soul. ;)

Lord Zarkov

02-06-2007, 14:58

Also bits of body could be more mashed than others, some bits could be mashed enough to allow searing to the soul, and others could be in better shape

Or it could be poetic wording like the RL phrase and just mean that the pain was so intense that it amde a permanent impression on his psyche

Or the concentration of magic could have been so large that there was a backlash on the warp side.

MutantMaggot

10-06-2007, 16:47

[Bretonnia]

Mousillon. What happened there?

Th Red Duke. Who was he?

:skull: MutantMaggot

Khaeron Baoth

10-06-2007, 16:56

[Chaos]

Has any chaos cult used significantly necromancy?

Arnizipal

10-06-2007, 20:46

[Bretonnia]

Mousillon. What happened there?

This (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60502) and this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47396) might help.

Alex Under

11-06-2007, 07:59

I'm planning on staring a Lizardmen army, using the lizardmen list but converting the minis as if they had been touched by Chaos. How could a whole temple city fall under Chaos' grasp? Fluff-wise, could a Slann possibly be possesed by one of the 4 gods? Where would it be "easier" for this to happen: Lustria, Southlands...? Any appropiate fluff to justify this project would be very handy.

Cheers!

Eldacar

11-06-2007, 12:23

Fluff-wise, could a Slann possibly be possesed by one of the 4 gods?
Not really, no.

Valrak

12-06-2007, 13:59

I would like to clear up some things on Sigmar.

When Sigmar left his throne did he die and become a true god?

Was Valten Sigmar reborn again? Also is he actually dead?

Alex Under

12-06-2007, 15:24

Not really, no.

Why? What about other Lizardmen? If an Old Blood was leading the force, could he be under Chaos' influence?

Tastyfish

12-06-2007, 17:50

I would like to clear up some things on Sigmar.

When Sigmar left his throne did he die and become a true god?
Sort of, its a little hazier in the WFB mythology than the 40K one as the boundaries between daaemon prince/daemon/minor god and mortal are a little shaky and there are definite examples of mortals become godlike beings.

Sigmar isn't the same sort of thing as the Chaos Gods, which arose in the realm of chaos from collected emotions - hope, being nice to dwarfs and blacksmithing don't provide Sigmar with any power in the same way that hope, rage, experience and dispair provide power for the chaos gods. That said, there is an entity within the realm of chaos that appears to support the Sigmarite religion and provides sutable miracles to his followers. He is a god in all ways that count, but you could argue he isn't a true god if you were basing the definition of the chaos gods.

Was Valten Sigmar reborn again? Also is he actually dead?
No, he was a person blessed by sigmar who had very similar experiences. They were different people (Valten never thought of himself as Sigmar). And yes, he is dead - the body later when missing but Luthor Huss and a few others did see his corpse with a weeping blade sticking out of it.

Eldacar

13-06-2007, 04:14

Why? What about other Lizardmen? If an Old Blood was leading the force, could he be under Chaos' influence?
Though it may or may not be possible for an Oldblood to suffer from Chaos (Skinks wouldn't, and nor would any Lizardman spellcasters), one would presume that along with all the other Elder Races, they have an inbuilt resistance to the warping effect of Chaos, and such would not be as susceptible to possession or mutation as others. Not to mention that the Saurii and Skinks live to serve the Slann. If any such corruption was ever detected (and since it's the Slann we're talking about, they'd probably sense it fast), it would be obliterated ASAP.

When Sigmar left his throne did he die and become a true god?
IMO, when his soul fell into the Aethyr (as all souls do), it was strong enough to survive and attract emotion and belief. This formed the basis for God-Sigmar as he is known today.

Was Valten Sigmar reborn again? Also is he actually dead?
No, he was not Sigmar born again, just somebody blessed by Sigmar and who shared many of the same attributes. And yes, he is dead. The Deathmaster killed him.

CommanderCax

14-06-2007, 00:18

[Chaos]

Has any chaos cult used significantly necromancy?

It depends on what you consider 'significantly'. The Nurgle cult of the Running Sore in Middenheim made use of at least one Necromancer and were able to teach Necromancy. The Brotherhood of the Forgotten One from Marienburg was also at least allied to a Necromancer.
Many Chaos cults are quite oppotunistic and if it would help them in reaching their goals they would certainly consider making use of Necromancy or whatever tool they have at their disposal. Especially Nurgle cults seem fitting and also Tzeentch cults are not reluctant in the use of all kind of magic. Khorne cults are certainly out of question and Slaanesh cults does not seem have any aptitute towards Necromancy....unless though they want to live out some obscure necrophilic tendencies maybe... :eek:
Cults of Khaine cannot be considered proper Chaos cults, but in former times they were heavily linked towards Necromancy with Khaine even being the God of Undeath.

I'm planning on staring a Lizardmen army, using the lizardmen list but converting the minis as if they had been touched by Chaos. How could a whole temple city fall under Chaos' grasp? Fluff-wise, could a Slann possibly be possesed by one of the 4 gods? Where would it be "easier" for this to happen: Lustria, Southlands...? Any appropiate fluff to justify this project would be very handy.

Highly unlikely but certainly within the realms of possibility. It is probably like breaking into Fort Knox or countering a roundhouse kick from Chuck Norris. While it is awkward to substantiate background stuff by game rules, keep in mind that younger Slann are even affected by miscasts of which one is a daemonic attack. So in my opinion a 2nd generation Slann is about immune against possession of a daemon or god, whereas a 5th generation Slann is not more resitant than lets say Teclis. But even a possessed Slann is certainly more like in stasis as its mind is battling with the parasitic warp entity for all eternity instead of being really corrupted in the sense of working for the Chaos Powers (wasn't there some kind of short story in one of the Lizarmen Army books of the past?).

A Saurus could certainly be somehow corrupted by daemonic possession or an appropriate daemonic artifact. The problem is that Saurus are not very emotional and therefore hard to corrupt in the first place. Maybe Khorne fuelling its basic aggressive instincts. A Skink wizard on the other hand is maybey easier to corrupt or to possess in a way, but still far more difficult than any of the younger races.
Southlands would be more fitting thn Lustria as the Slann are younger and the whole social structure seem a bit more anarchic. If I remember correctly there are some 'uncontrolled' Lizardmen on the Dragon Isles south of the Dark Lands. Maybe a tribe of them could be somehow corrupted. Still, a full-fledged temple-city taken over by the Ruinous Powers would not work.

IMO, when his soul fell into the Aethyr (as all souls do), it was strong enough to survive and attract emotion and belief. This formed the basis for God-Sigmar as he is known today.

This or he was just torn to pieces and the widespread belief in him formed a completely new vortex within the warp. But it does not matter anyway as it makes no real difference.

Witchfire

27-06-2007, 20:10

Didnt deathmaster sniktch (sp?) kill valten in his room with his weeping blades and slash the skaven symbol into the bedsheets?

Eldacar

28-06-2007, 07:08

Didnt deathmaster sniktch (sp?) kill valten in his room with his weeping blades and slash the skaven symbol into the bedsheets?
Yes, the Skaven did it.

stormblade

04-07-2007, 04:58

But then again Skaven really aren't fond of leaving their signatures around- it doesn't help when it comes to keeping your existence a secret.

Eldacar

07-07-2007, 02:12

I'm pretty sure that it was in Shadow of the Horned Rat where it was stated outright that the Deathmaster killed Valten, regardless of strange out-of-character calling cards.

Fanfan

13-07-2007, 21:13

[Empire]

Can anyone name the Arch-Lectors in function in the Empire before the Great War Against Chaos? I need a name for fluff writing...

Kymar

16-07-2007, 18:02

Why? What about other Lizardmen? If an Old Blood was leading the force, could he be under Chaos' influence?

Only thing I can think that comes close to this is the story in the Skaven Codex where plague monks pollute a spawning pool. In that story everything is the pool is dead or dieing, but you could use that a reference point and develop a sort of Nurgle Lizardmen from that.

stormblade

16-07-2007, 18:16

Arnizipal

16-07-2007, 20:33

[Empire]

Can anyone name the Arch-Lectors in function in the Empire before the Great War Against Chaos? I need a name for fluff writing...
I don't think they are named.

I've got a question.

How come there are so many dwarf slayers? I mean dwarfs are known for not straying far the rules of their society and are quire a reliable bunch so have come they become slayers and such?

Thanks in advance.
Because the things that shame him are often out of his control and Dwarf standards are way too high.
A cannon misfire where Dwarfs got killed might cause an engineer to take the Slayer Oath even though it's impossible to make a fail-proof cannon with Old World technology.
A Dwarf sergeant might become a Slayer because he was unable to rally his regiment even though it got massacred badly just minutes ago.

Eldacar

17-07-2007, 02:39

How come there are so many dwarf slayers? I mean dwarfs are known for not straying far the rules of their society and are quire a reliable bunch so have come they become slayers and such?
Dwarf standards of personal honour are far too high, along with just the general expectations they have for each other. It's partly a result of their tradition-minded outset, IMO.

Astner

16-08-2007, 07:10

A question I desperately seek answer to: What does Tzeentch, the Chaos God, look like?

CommanderCax

16-08-2007, 08:33

A question I desperately seek answer to: What does Tzeentch, the Chaos God, look like?

Tzeentch has many different aspects as he is the god of change. Sometimes Tzeentch is described as a multi-coloured cloud or a bird with feathers made of light. But mostly Tzeentch is described as follows:

Tzeentchs skin seems to be constantly in movement, forming to innumerable faces that disappear, appear, leer and grimace. When Tzeentch is speaking, the words are echoing often with slight and subtle differences in the meaning. The face is displayed directly on top of the torso so that they form a unity (ie. no visible neck). Above the eyes arise two sprawling horns and from the 'neck' rise three tentacle-like outgrowths ending in puckered faces that constantly repeat what the main face in the torso is saying. Tzeentch mostly seem to be hovering cross-legged on a swirling multi-coloured mist.

Astner

16-08-2007, 21:33

Tzeentch has many different aspects as he is the god of change. Sometimes Tzeentch is described as a multi-coloured cloud or a bird with feathers made of light. But mostly Tzeentch is described as follows:

Tzeentchs skin seems to be constantly in movement, forming to innumerable faces that disappear, appear, leer and grimace. When Tzeentch is speaking, the words are echoing often with slight and subtle differences in the meaning. The face is displayed directly on top of the torso so that they form a unity (ie. no visible neck). Above the eyes arise two sprawling horns and from the 'neck' rise three tentacle-like outgrowths ending in puckered faces that constantly repeat what the main face in the torso is saying. Tzeentch mostly seem to be hovering cross-legged on a swirling multi-coloured mist.
From what novel?

Arnizipal

16-08-2007, 22:22

From the (out of print) Realms of Chaos books.

Astner

16-08-2007, 23:28

From the (out of print) Realms of Chaos books.
Thanks, I will get the entire series, two novels, lol.

Arnizipal

17-08-2007, 00:51

Good luck with that. They're pretty rare and fetch a small fortune each time they surface on e-bay.
And they're not novels. They're sourcebooks for third editon WFB and first edition WFRP.

N0-1_H3r3

17-08-2007, 09:47

I've got a question.

How come there are so many dwarf slayers? I mean dwarfs are known for not straying far the rules of their society and are quire a reliable bunch so have come they become slayers and such?.
There aren't. Not really. Remember, the number of models in an army is no indication of how many of something there is in the background.

Slayers live solitary lives by necessity - they don't want to live with other Dwarfs (it reminds them of their disgrace), and other Dwarfs don't want to be near Slayers. Thus, in the middle of a Dwarfhold, you could personally speak to ten thousand Dwarfs and never see a single Slayer. The Slayers are wandering the world, killing things in the hope that someday, something will manage to kill them instead.

However, when war comes to the Dwarfs, Slayers often band together and join forces with their people - a battle, afterall, offers plenty of opportunities for the fatal redemption that Slayers seek, and has lots of witnesses to ensure that their final acts of heroism are remembered.

During the Storm of Chaos, this reached the logical conclusion - an 'army' of Slayers marched north to face the invading Chaos forces head-on.

In that regard, Slayers are like flagellants - they aren't part of the army, they've simply just turned up for the battle. It also means that the numbers of Slayers that might be described as being present for a battle are by no means a representation of the total number of Slayers in the world.

Slayers are, in fact, relatively few in number... afterall, you don't survive becoming a Slayer. Indeed, surviving kind of defeats the point...

Astner

18-08-2007, 15:19

Final question, how does Khorne look like, is he also illustrated in the "Relam of Chaos"?

CommanderCax

20-08-2007, 08:40

Final question, how does Khorne look like, is he also illustrated in the "Relam of Chaos"?

Yes, he is.

Khorne is mostly depicted as sitting on his bronze throne upon a huge mound of skulls, around him is an ocean of bones. He carries a richly ornamented armour of black chaos-metal and bronze adorned with pieces of brass. He rests upon a mighty greatsword made of the same metal. His body is broad and muscular, his head resembles that of a hound with human features put on top of a humanoid torso. He wears several brazen rings on his fingers partially adorned with his skull-rune.

Astner

21-08-2007, 11:43

Yes, he is.

Khorne is mostly depicted as sitting on his bronze throne upon a huge mound of skulls, around him is an ocean of bones. He carries a richly ornamented armour of black chaos-metal and bronze adorned with pieces of brass. He rests upon a mighty greatsword made of the same metal. His body is broad and muscular, his head resembles that of a hound with human features put on top of a humanoid torso. He wears several brazen rings on his fingers partially adorned with his skull-rune.
Is there any pictures of the actual God, Khorne?
I heard that there is a Daemon-looking beast with a helmet and a face on his stomach in Liber Khorne, but he don´t have any weapons.

Arnizipal

21-08-2007, 17:30

I think that's the description of Tzeentch you got there.

Astner

21-08-2007, 17:37

I think that's the description of Tzeentch you got there.
He appeared in the back last page of Liber Khorne, a more detailed discription wld be.

Face with fangs, horned helmet with a skull between the eyes
2 big spikes from his back, skull kneepads, horned with skull shoulderpads, and a big face on his bellie above a sash.

It even says "Blood for the blood god" under the picture.

Arnizipal

21-08-2007, 17:47

Here (http://warseer.com/forums/1751260-post6.html) you go. Piccies of all chaos gods.

mistformsquirrel

21-08-2007, 18:25

CommanderCax

21-08-2007, 18:52

Ok, I has a question!

Does anyone have any information on the Carrousbrough (sp?) Greatswords? They're mentioned briefly in the Empire 7th edition book, but I'm wondering if that's just the only blurb they're mentioned in, or if they've been around awhile. They sounded kinda neat, so I'm curious!

(If it helps, they're mentioned as a Reikland army, though they wear red instead of white in memory of a long and hellacious siege)

They are around since 4th edition as far as I know. If I remember correctly Carroburg switched from being part of Reikland to being part of Middenland as well as the other way around. Maybe it was even a city-state for a time.
The Carroburg Bihandkämpfer (ie. Greatswords) fought stubbornly against a besieging army of Middenland a couple of centuries ago and their white uniforms were drenched in the blood of their enemies as well as their own because of the vicious battle. Normally the state uniforms of Carroburg were always white, but as a matter of respect and remembrance the Carroburg Bihandkämpfder wore red uniforms from then on.

mistformsquirrel

23-08-2007, 01:05

Ok one more question: and this one may have no answer I admit >.< but I gotta try.

What do we know about Nippon other than that its WFB version of ancient Japan? I ask because my Chaos general is likely going to originate there (however she'll wind up in the Old World and most of the army will be recruited there). Nevertheless being an obsessive fluff writer, I want to know what I can before I pen the Warhammer version of her story.

(I use this character in virtually everything, she's got a story from every universe she encounters heh)

*Edit* Want to also thank CommanderCax for the info on the Carroburg Greatswords. Some of that was in the Empire book, but not quite all. If there's any more it'd be cool to know it, but if not, its still quit neat!

(It gives me ideas for an Empire Army for "someday". *sigh* I have so many "Someday" ideas)

CommanderCax

26-08-2007, 10:07

What do we know about Nippon other than that its WFB version of ancient Japan?

The inscrutable Eastern Empire known as Nippon, is ruled by a reclusive semi-divine Emperor, but real power lies in the hands of the many feudal warlords or 'Samurai'. These warrior nobles govern large domains and command retinues of with which they frequently indulge in private wars among themselves. Nippon is an island realm and a notable sea power and it sometimes happens that a Samurai war fleet is dispersed by a typhoon, scattering the ships far and wide. Should an isolated war junk fetch up on a foreign shore the Samurai commander will gather his men and march straight for the nearest representative of authority to offer his services in return for food and shelter. Sometimes Samurai lords deliberately embark their followers into war junks and set sail towards the rising sun in search of adventure, especially if the other feudal clans back home in Nippon are cramping his style.
WFB (Warhammer Armies), 3rd edition

Located somewhere off the coast of the mainland Nippon is said to be a powerful feudal kingdom, where knights, resplendent in brightly coloured armour made of lacquered wood, enforce a complex and ridged class system. Said to be intensely distrustful to outsiders, they only permit foreigners to travel in their lands rarely. Little else is known about Nippon, though doubtless if the rest of the world is anything to go by, it will be populated by its own unique and deadly monsters and perils.
WFRP (Warhammer Companion), 2nd edition

*Edit* Want to also thank CommanderCax for the info on the Carroburg Greatswords. Some of that was in the Empire book, but not quite all. If there's any more it'd be cool to know it, but if not, its still quit neat!

The mentioned siege was in 1865 IC.

mistformsquirrel

26-08-2007, 10:21

Hmm... that is most useful information actually! (And thankfully fits *exactly* as I'd hoped into the army background I am working up)

Thanks again for the info; it is *greatly* appreciated!

*rubs hands together mischievously* <-_-> Mwahahaha...

Atavistic

28-08-2007, 13:17

[the effects of warpstone]

Dear longbeards

Warpstone, being essentially solidified chunks of chaos as we all know has mutating properties, what I want to know is wether warpstone infact reacts quickly to living organisms around it or requires time to distort its surroundings? I would also like to know wether warpstones effects are more often fatal than not? I have found references to skaven grey seers "overdosing" on warpstone and either expiring or being permanently scarred (either physically or mentally) by the ravaging effects of the powerful matter they have ingested (or whatever else skaven do with the foul stuff).

Furthermore, would dwarves being an extremely magically resistant race and therefor more resistant to chaotic energies be more resilliant to the effects of warpstone? and if so to what degree? for instance could a dwarf ingest a lump of warpstone safely, or would it merely take longer to die from the effects?

Any other random facts about warpstone would be welcome too, my thanks in advance for any answers given.

Eldacar

03-09-2007, 05:06

what I want to know is wether warpstone infact reacts quickly to living organisms around it or requires time to distort its surroundings?
Depends on how potent the chunk in question is.

I would also like to know wether warpstones effects are more often fatal than not?
Depends on the strength of the Warpstone and the length of exposure. Too much would probably eventually get you killed though, yes.

Furthermore, would dwarves being an extremely magically resistant race and therefor more resistant to chaotic energies be more resilliant to the effects of warpstone?
Yes. The Elves share this resilience, being another of the races who are all but immune to mutation.

and if so to what degree? for instance could a dwarf ingest a lump of warpstone safely, or would it merely take longer to die from the effects?
Not sure of the exact numbers, but if it's anything like the Elves, then they could potentially go for thousands of years in the Chaos Wastes and only suffer from minor mutations.

But directly ingesting Warpstone, however, is really a bad idea no matter how resistant you are.

Any other random facts about warpstone would be welcome too, my thanks in advance for any answers given.
Realms of Sorcery has a few pages talking about the stuff.

Atavistic

08-09-2007, 19:59

thanks, that info was quite helpful :)

Angelwing

08-09-2007, 23:44

warpstone:
from skaven 4th ed book:
"prolonged exposure will bring madness, mutation and death"
"a creature exposed to warpstone for a day or more would be likely to suffer some form of mutation."
"Anything consuming even refined warpstone runs a terrible risk of having its mind and body destroyed by uncontrollable mutations."
The book has a couple of pages devoted to warpstone and its use by skaven.

TheCloak

19-09-2007, 21:23

[Skarsnik / The Crooked Moon]

It states that Skarsnik had various types of greens at his command but would they be part of the "Crooked Moon" .... or more clearly stated .... Are there Orcs, Black Orcs, Common Gobbos etc in the Crooked Moon?

thank you in advance

Dargon

20-09-2007, 00:00

It states that Skarsnik had various types of greens at his command but would they be part of the "Crooked Moon" .... or more clearly stated .... Are there Orcs, Black Orcs, Common Gobbos etc in the Crooked Moon?There's probably enough evidence to go either way with this...

FOR:
* It is commonly accepted that when one Orc/Goblin tribe defeats another (and more specifically takes out it's leader), the beaten tribe can become subservient to, and be absorbed into the victorious tribe.
* The Orc & Goblin armybook generally promotes mixed O&G forces on the tabletop, rather than themed "Orc-Only" or "Night Goblin Only". Presumably the average 2000pt force is assumed to be representative of a single tribe.
* Skarsnik is often mentioned as having a variety of troops at his disposal. The "Battle of the East Gate" scenario from the 4th Edition Dwarf Armybook had a mix of Orcs and Nightgoblins suggested for Skarsnik's forces, and most accounts of the battle mention both Orcs and Night Goblins.

AGAINST:
* Most O&G tribes are generally described as being a collection of a single type of Orc or Goblin - examples from the map from the 6th Edition O&G Armybook map include: "Broken Tooth Orcs"; "Red Fang Orcs"; Iron Claw Orcs"; "Orcs of the Bloody Hand"; "Broken Axe Goblins"; "Yellow Eye Goblins"; "Bloody Spear Night Goblins; etc. (Interestingly though, the Crooked Mood are labled as "Goblins" on this, and most other maps).
* The description of Gorfang Rotgut (an Orc rival of Skarsnik's) from the 4th Edition O&G Book says, "his neighbours are the Night Goblins of Karak Eight Peaks whose leader is the old and infamously cunning Skarsnik."
* On tribes, the 4th Edition O&G Book has to say, "A tribe usually contains Orcs or Goblins of the same type, for example it might be a Night Goblin tribe, a Black Orc tribe, a Forest Goblin tribe, etc. However, most Orc tribes also include inferior Goblins of lower status." (no mention of whether Goblin tribes can include inferior Orcs of lesser status).
* The different Greenskin species generally have very different lifestyles. Common Goblins are generally nomadic, Night Goblins prefer to stay underground in tunnels and caves, while Orcs tend to stick above ground. Orcs can force Goblins to adapt to the living conditions of their tribe, but I don't recall any mention of Night Goblins forcing Orcs to adapt to underground life.

For my part, I tend to prefer to think of the "Crooked Moon" as exclusively Night Goblins (and of course Squigs, Trolls and whatever other monstrosities Skarsnik keeps as "pets"), while the other Orcs and Goblins who, "for leagues around Karak Eight Peaks hail him as their undisputed master" (current O&G armybook), are independant of the Crooked Moon, even though they are subservient to Skarsnik.

Orc and Goblin "tribes" though are so malleable, that I don't think there is a correct answer to this, and I don't think GW have specifically clarified one way or the other.

Just a thought...

Giladis

20-09-2007, 15:21

Most Greenskin tribes include all types of them but generally they will be named after the most numerous group.

Arkturas

26-09-2007, 14:47

Arnizipal

26-09-2007, 20:38

Most likely it exists but it's probably not tested thoroughly enough (in Dwarf terms anyway) to be used in the field.

Dargon

26-09-2007, 22:42

[Dwarfs]

Is there any reason why dwarfs don't use a steam tank equivalent in war? (accident, engineers guild etc). They have the Gyrocopter and steam powered ships. I seem to remember steam land vehicles in some books (ore carrying/mining, inter hold transport along the underground links). Warmachines would go through the engineers guild so why is there a jump to a steam helicopter missing the easier land option?
I don't believe an official answer has been given (yet, perhaps the coming sourcebook might provide an answer).

However, by simple logic I would deduce that Land machines like Steam Tanks don't work too well in the Dwarfs mountainous terrain, where good roads are few and far between. Same reason the Dwarfs invented the helicopter before the aeroplane - a helicopter can generally land anywhere there is a large enough clearing, while an aeroplane needs a long, straight, open stretch of flat land (which in Warhammer is a rare thing).

Dwarfs are practical to a fault. If something proves more trouble than it's worth, they won't trust their lives to it. Within the depths of their own holds, it's another story. They have full control of their environment, and an abundance of hard, flat, level surfaces (and probably rail tracks) for these steam powered machines to travel on. Outside though, it's all primitive and wild terrain, which would turn most vehicles into a deathtrap, (there are still mountainous areas of the world today that can only be accessed by burrow/mule).

Just a thought...

DizLoony

05-10-2007, 21:44

I got some questions I have been unable to find an answer to.
[Geography and history]

1. Who was Luthor Harkon? What is his present intention or has his fate been sealed already? I know he is linked to the Von Carstein line and is responsible for the creation of the Vampire coast in Lustria. Also, is it known he has meanwhile other lesser vampiric servants?

2. Where is Athel Tamara, the ancient elven ruine located exactly? And was there anything special about it, seperating it from any other ruine?

3 and 4. Whats the story behind both the Blighted towers and the three towers, I believe both to be located in Averland.

Thanks ahead.

Finnblood

07-10-2007, 11:12

Q: How's Albion these days? I mean, some people claim that the lizardmen colony is merely some jungle pocket where the locals come to venerate the 'lizard-gods'. Then some people say Albion was ethnically cleansed and then jungle-fied. I kinda liked Albion; is there any of the original left?

Eldacar

07-10-2007, 14:39

Probably not. The Lizzies tend to be very thorough when they set their minds to something.

kurt helborg

06-11-2007, 16:46

Hey longbeards. Any idea on the populations of the warhammer nations, not exact population but a general guide to the size of each nation that can b easily measured eg Empire, HE, Dwarfs. Near Impossable 2 find the numbers of Skaven or O&G

Giladis

07-11-2007, 19:27

There are some calculations here http://www.ulthuan.net/viewtopic.php?t=17128

and here

http://www.ulthuan.net/viewtopic.php?t=15759

sainthale1988

28-11-2007, 13:33

Hi longbeards i've got an empire army that i have final decided to theme around Nuln. i was therefore wondering if you could please;
A) give me some general background on the city
B) as my army will be lead by an arch lector (of nuln) i was wondering if there was any official fluff on him? i know his name is Kaslain (of nuln) but nothing else.

also any understanding of the structure/ doctrine/ dogma of the cult of sigmar esp regarding the hierachy and links to the empire military would be aprechiated!

Many thanks in advance

Sainthale1988

CommanderCax

28-11-2007, 14:07

The city of Nuln - 'The Jewel of the Empire' - is the second largest city of the Empire, home to the Imperial Gunnery School and hence famous for its gunpowder weapons (the Great Cannons are exclusively made there). The University of Nuln is also one of the most famous universities within the Empire. etc. (http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nuln)

Kaslain of Nuln mustered a force in Nuln and fought against a renegade Empire army that was under the influence of the Chaos cult of the Purple Hand. He destroyed the army at the village of Gerdinger after it had sacked a couple of farmsteads in the vicinity of Nuln.

Together with his counterpart Aglim, he was responsible for the recession of the unloved Grand Theogonist Johann Esmer, so that it was possible for Volkmar to take back his office.

Azkael

29-11-2007, 06:07

Hey Longbeards, I have a question...

Are Orcs in the Warhammer Fantasy and 40K Universe necessarily evil, is their serious intent to destroy the entire world, or are they just looking for a fight?

And what are Orcs' relative intelligence in comparison to humans and other races in Warhammer Fantasy and 40K? They make a lot of gadgets and war machines and sometimes employ tactics...

Thanks.

Giladis

29-11-2007, 06:35

From a human perspective they are evil but that is a question that has been done so many times and with the help of the search engine I think several will come up.

Do they wish to destroy the world? I would say no but their very lifestyle would result in the destruction of the world should they ever conquer it.

Orcs are generally less inteligent than humans but have a sort of animal cunning that help them around. Also they are very one dimesional thinker. When they want something they will do it without giving it a second thought while a human might spend hours if not days weighting pros and cons.

mistformsquirrel

09-12-2007, 18:52

Hallo Longbeards!

I come bearing a few questions that pertain to the course of my army's fluff! Or at least, could anyway.

First and foremost - What know we of Lustria?

I'm wondering - are Lizardmen the ONLY major inhabitants of Lustria? How many corners of that place remain to be uncovered? Has it pretty much been poured over, or would you say it's entirely feasible for tribal groups to exist there that few would know about outside of their immediate locale?

Second - Slavery and the Old World - Does it exist? More importantly, would you find it believable that a tribe in Lustria could be plundered by explorers from the Old World, and taken back to serve there as slaves? I admit, my knowledge of the Warhammer World is thinner than I'd like it to be so its a question I'm just not sure about.

Help is appreciated!

Arnizipal

09-12-2007, 19:27

Lustria is inhabited by various species of intelligent life. Most importantly the Lizardmen, but there's also a High Elf colony called Arnhelm. There are also various tribes of amazons and (canibalistic) pygmees living in the jungle. Near the coast you can find Norse settlements here and there and along the Vampire Coast you can find (surprise surprise) undead.
I believe that Clan Pestilens also has some warrens in Lustria.

Slavery is officially forbidden in the Empire, but many underground pit-fighting rings use slaves in their battles. The Border Princes to south of the Empire have no official law, and slavetaking is still a profitable business there.

mistformsquirrel

09-12-2007, 19:36

The Border Princes; that's perfect! <,< That was my original destination; but that was before I muddled with my fluff a bunch... Ironic; I may just be coming full circle then! Thanks much for the information, with a little luck this will be worth a read when its done!

Peter Ebel

14-12-2007, 19:17

[Empire] Outside of Marienburg, are there any known factions within the Empire that are opposed to the rule of nobility? Has there been any peasant revolts and the like that are known off?

CommanderCax

16-12-2007, 11:18

[Empire] Outside of Marienburg, are there any known factions within the Empire that are opposed to the rule of nobility? Has there been any peasant revolts and the like that are known off?

There are many different factions within the Empire and it depends on what you mean by 'opposed'. Openly opposed is hardly possible, but there are many sects and cults that want to overthrow the nobility in secret.
The aim of many Cults of Tzeentch (e.g. The Purple Hand) is to destabilize the ruling class and to start a civil war. Some agitators and demagogues are also protesting against the absolutistic nobility and sometimes even lead small uprisings.

While not openly opposed in the sense of wanting to overthrow the nobility, many guilds are kind of opposed to the prevalence of the nobility. Especially Merchant Guilds gained a lot of power recently and are even pushing away the authority of the noble class in a couple of areas. Due to their commercial power some free-cities (e.g. Kempperbad, Bögenhafen) within the Empire gained some sort of independence from the direct influence of the nobility and are ruled by town councils or burgomeisters.

The bread riots of Streissen are an example of an almost revolt.

Progena

16-12-2007, 21:12

[Old Lore: Gods of Law]

I asked about the Gods of Law earlier in another thread. The guys doing WFRPG often drop some more or less subtle references to old lore or popular culture in their books. I've been reading through Realm of the Ice Queen and the explaination for the origins of Ice Magic kinda stuck with me.

It has been explained in earlier GW publications that Ice magic originates from the land of Kislev and not neccesary the eight winds. What is explained in RotIQ is that this magic is a gift from an entity known as the 'Old Widow' trapped beneath the land. I'm guessing that this entity is probably the same as the 'Ice Maiden' briefly mentioned in the book who is said to be imprisoned beneath the earth and should she ever be freed she could (or would) destroy Chaos forever.

A pretty nice story all in all, but it stuck with me because I remember that I read a small footnote in an internet article on the Gods of Law a couple of years back. It mentiones a missing Godess of Law who slumbers beneath the ground but no one knows where. I'm unable to find that article, or any other article that does more than mention them by name for that matter.

Wondered if any of the Longbeards could tell me if I'm wasting my time looking for connections.

Arnizipal

16-12-2007, 21:54

That would be the lost godess of Law called Arianka, who is imprisoned in a crystal coffin beneath Praag. The unnamed Chaos god that imprisoned her locked the coffin with twelve keys IIRC. Maleb Daark, a follower of Malal, was looking for these.

Progena

16-12-2007, 22:14

Ah yes. Thanks for the name, I Googled it. Seems Tzeench was the one who imprisoned her.

mistformsquirrel

20-12-2007, 05:29

Yet another random question from this furry tree rodent >.>;;

What precisely... is a Hobgoblin? <o.@>; Since the Chaos Dwarf army list at present contains no fluff at all... its kinda hard to know. Now initially my thought was "Goblins"; but I'm not totally sure.

Is there anything special about them?

Arnizipal

20-12-2007, 10:01

Basically, they're bigger, tougher, smarter goblins. And even more backstabby than the regular kind.

kroq'gar

20-12-2007, 10:56

Correct me if im wrong, this is my understanding...

The orc and goblins revolted/battled against the chaos dwarfs and nearly destroy them (this may have been the same conflict that occured when the black orcs rebelled (chaos dwarfs created them)), but the treachery of the hobgoblins (a subbreed of goblins) saved the Chaos dwarves. This then exiled the hobgoblins from their own kind; some then replaced orcs with dwarfs as their masters, and some went and formed their own kindgom on the steppes under the hobgobla khan (basically warhammer mongolians) . This empire was unnaturaly displaced when the orgres kindgom and their horrible fluff were suddenly written in. As a result i believe the hobgoblins were pushed further east.

They betrayed the orcs and i think that is a referance to the origonal goblin societies being destroyed by orcs and breaking free again.

And yes, as above, they are bigger than goblins, but maintain most of the characteristics. They are more like your traditional green goblin than your warhammer little weedy runt.

RobC

20-12-2007, 12:46

The information Kroq'gar gives is correct to an extent, but to be strict it's only correct for 4th edition background. Prior to that the hobgoblins had nothing to do with the Chaos Dwarfs, and in subsequent editions (most notably the Dogs of War entry in 5th edition and the entry in the Old World Bestiary for WFRP) the background is either more relevant to the old style or a mishmash of the two.

CommanderCax

20-12-2007, 14:00

I am not sure whether they are tougher but they are taller and unlike all other Greenskins sometimes sprout dark hair. The resemble humans a little more in stature.
Before the appearance of the 4th edition Chaos Dwarfs they were kind of Mongolian in appearance and culture. They were led by the Hobgobla Khan and lived in the so called Hobgolin Hegemony somewhere to the northeast of the World Edge Mountains. Some of them even traded with humans and they were more structured, educated and cultured than all the othe Greenskin species. Nowadays it seems the Ogre Kingdoms sort of inherited their position within the Warhammer World. Still, one of the Dogs of War regiments and a special character somehow reminds of and mentions these Khan led Hobgoblins.

txamil

20-12-2007, 16:15

It's not exactly clear if all the hobgoblins were hanging out with the CDs or just some. I assume just some (despite the special character in the CD book), with the majority still out east on some steppes Mongolian style.

mistformsquirrel

20-12-2007, 21:55

Ahh, thanks much everyone, very interesting indeed <@_@>

Giladis

24-12-2007, 07:20

I know that only Elector Counts and other Electors may chose the new Emperor but are the Elector Counts the only ones that can run for the Emperor?

CommanderCax

24-12-2007, 10:12

I know that only Elector Counts and other Electors may chose the new Emperor but are the Elector Counts the only ones that can run for the Emperor?

Yes, indeed.

MutantMaggot

24-12-2007, 10:40

I believe so. Other Empire figures of importance may attempt to become Emperor, but by tradition he is also the elector count of his province, so said applicant would also have to campaign for becoming elector count at the same time; and that relies on there being a vacancy, or a very good assassin ...

The Emperor has always been an elector count in the background. If a non-elector applied, the other elector counts would be annoyed, and newer elector counts would also stand little chance.

For all intents, purposes and history, the Emporer is an elector count.

RobC

24-12-2007, 11:44

I know that only Elector Counts and other Electors may chose the new Emperor but are the Elector Counts the only ones that can run for the Emperor?Yes, most likely. But if the Elector Counts wanted a non-Elector-Count to be Emperor then they'd just have to ensure he was an Elector-Count first...

Arnizipal

24-12-2007, 14:04

The most notable exception to this being Magnus the Pious, who was just your average noble's son/scholar before becoming Emperor.

He did have a good PR campaign though :p

kroq'gar

27-12-2007, 00:48

Good evening all, does anyone have any info on the dragon isles beyond that there are no more slann and its full of feral lizardmen? Looking to theme an army on the location but am having some difficulty locating and fluff.

Cheers

Knights of Requiem

15-01-2008, 08:59

{High Elves}

What is the gap between High Elven Social Classes? We all hear about High Elven princes, and their titles that then inherited, but i honestly can't see normal average Althalon(Average Joe) Elves being lesser to other elves, it just seems they may be a bit haughty.

So if someone could please explain what the Social Classes are in Elven Society, i would be greatful. Is thier a 'glass ceiling'? Or can any elf, born anywhere, become anything.

My question refers to High Elven Society, we all know that Druchii society is different, as is the Asrai.

snurl

07-02-2008, 06:07

{Dwarves, Karak Zorn}

Besides being a dot on the map, what is known about the lost hold of Karak Zorn?

Arnizipal

07-02-2008, 10:14

Supposedly it was the first Dwarf hold. It either rebelled or was destroyed when the Dwarfs joined the Ancestor Gods in their journey to the north.

CommanderCax

07-02-2008, 11:24

{Dwarves, Karak Zorn}

Besides being a dot on the map, what is known about the lost hold of Karak Zorn?

Karak Zorn is an ancient Dwarf hold within the Southlands. There is not much known about it, but Dwarfs scholars claim their race was born there before they migrated north with the living Ancestor Gods. It is believed by many to have been overrun millenia ago by the ancient denizens of the nearby Southland jungles (ie. Old Ones/Slann/Lizardmen). Other early records claim that Karak Zorn was founded (and subsequently lost) by Dwarfs who rebelled against Grugni's decision to migrate northwards.

Jedi152

07-02-2008, 11:38

On the same tack, is anything known about the northern hold of Kraka Drak? It's marked on maps (usually with an arrow to the north), but never really mentioned anywhere.

Is it in Norsca?

mrtn

07-02-2008, 12:37

Yes, just north of High Pass, by the Frozen Sea.

CommanderCax

07-02-2008, 17:13

On the same tack, is anything known about the northern hold of Kraka Drak?

Kraka Drak (Dragon Hold) was founded about 4,000 years before the birth of Sigmar by what is today known as the Norse Dwarfs. It is actually the largest and wealthiest of the four Norse Dwarf strongholds but not the most northern one. It sits on the largest iron, silver and sapphire deposits in Norsca. The nearby coast is also blessed with an abundance of amber.

snurl

08-02-2008, 08:13

Karak Zorn is an ancient Dwarf hold within the Southlands. There is not much known about it, but Dwarfs scholars claim their race was born there before they migrated north with the living Ancestor Gods. It is believed by many to have been overrun millenia ago by the ancient denizens of the nearby Southland jungles (ie. Old Ones/Slann/Lizardmen). Other early records claim that Karak Zorn was founded (and subsequently lost) by Dwarfs who rebelled against Grugni's decision to migrate northwards.

Thank you (all) for the info.

Arkturas

08-02-2008, 14:54

Kraka Drak (Dragon Hold) was founded about 4,000 years before the birth of Sigmar by what is today known as the Norse Dwarfs. It is actually the largest and wealthiest of the four Norse Dwarf strongholds but not the most northern one. It sits on the largest iron, silver and sapphire deposits in Norsca. The nearby coast is also blessed with an abundance of amber.

Are the other three strongholds named/still intact and what is the current relationship with the rest of the dwarf's/Empire? (The Norse in general don't really get along with the Empire do they)

CommanderCax

08-02-2008, 16:46

The other three strongholds (Kraka Dorden (Thunder Hold), Kraka Ravnsvake (Raven's Roost Hold), and Kraka Ornsmotek (Eagle's Peak Hold)) are still intact. They do not belong to Karaz Ankor and were spared the destruction of the War of Vengeance and the Goblin Wars.

They re-established contact to the Imperial Dwarfs during the Great War against Chaos in 2302 IC after the final Battle of Grovod Wood.

The Norse (not the Norse Dwarfs) raid the coastal area of the Old World from time to time so the relationship is sometimes a bit stressed to say the least... However they also trade with Marienburg and the Empire once in a while, especially the more southern tribes like the Bjornlings, Skaelings, Baersonlings, and Sarls.

kroq'gar

03-03-2008, 06:19

Heres one, not sure if you can help but its a question thats plauged my gaming career.

Can elves grow beards?

Dargon

03-03-2008, 08:33

Can elves grow beards?
In theory, yes, but I think there are only a couple of examples, and I'm not sure how canonical they were.

One that springs to mind was Maleus Darkblade's father (who had a goatee), or at least in the comic. I don't know if this detail made it into any novels.

Just a thought...

Arnizipal

03-03-2008, 10:27

One that springs to mind was Maleus Darkblade's father (who had a goatee), or at least in the comic. I don't know if this detail made it into any novels.

Yes it did, but I still doubt it being official in any way.

ironfather512

06-03-2008, 20:55

Dwarfs

I was wondering if anyone knew anything about Karak Norn besides what is in the dwarf army book?

thanks

sam

CommanderCax

07-03-2008, 08:06

Dwarfs

I am not sure what is written in the current Dwarf army list, but I can quote some of what is written in Stone and Steel.

'The largest hold in the Grey Mountains is Karak Norn ("Barren Earth Hold"). Populated by displaced clans from the fallen hold of Mount Silverspear and the watchtowers of Mad Dog Pass, Karak Norn sits on the only sizeable deposits of metal and semiprecious stones in the Grey Mountains. The Dwarfhold is strategically placed with its upper level visible on a palteau high above the Loren Forest. This enables the Dwarfs to monitor the activities of the Wood Elves of Loren, albeit from a considerable distance. While the Elves haven't been a threat for over 4,000 years, and the grudge against the Elves was officially settled with the taking of the Phoenix Crown, the Dwarfs see no harm in vigilance.

Ruled by King Brokk Ironpick the Grim and Queen Thurma of the Grintzagaz clan, Karak Norn is the smallest of the principal Dwarfholds outside the World's Edge Mountains, but it still has a strong influence over the surrounding Dwarf settlements. The Grey Mountain Dwarfs enjoy a relatively peaceful co-existence with the Bretonnians to the west and a very uneasy truce with the Wood Elves of Athel-Loren. They side with the Empire in times of war with Bretonnia, and have been known to close all major passes in the southern Grey Mountains, including the well-travelled Montdidier Pass that transverses the southern end of the range, near the Vaults.

Karak Norn is defended by large flame cannons and powerful bolt throwers. Although clearly designed with the Wood Elves of Loren in mind, the Dwarfs defences are a formidable deterrent to any who might seek to invade their realm.'

Hope it helps.

anarnii

10-03-2008, 17:53

[old ones - lost races]

reading the lizardman timeline in the army book it says that lots of other spieces were developed by the old ones like elves dwarves and men, but were destroyed by orcs. it also mentions somewhere that the old ones also destroyed some of the original inhabitants of the world when they started theyre many projects. is there any more details on thses races? do speices lost in the GW vortex like zoats and fimir class as these?

thanks!

Entropolus

21-03-2008, 17:30

[dwarf/VC]

Can a dwarf become a vampire?

Revlid

22-03-2008, 17:11

[dwarf/VC]

Can a dwarf become a vampire?

Question: Can Vampires can be races other than Human?
Answer: Really a matter of preference - Gav says not through being bitten. I agree. Others think otherwise.

Here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112698)
Here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53215)
And here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36251)

No, it's an awful idea, although I think one appeared in that series of Vampire books.

Cap'n Facebeard

26-03-2008, 14:27

[Sartosa]

Oh great Longbeards, I beseech thee:

Is Sartosa an actual realm, or just a hideout for bands of cut-throat pirates?

kylsnik ironhead

26-03-2008, 22:33

I have three questions involving orcs

1.Are orcs carnivores or obnivores?

2.Can Orcs make their own weapons?

3. Do Orcs ever stop growing?

mrtn

27-03-2008, 00:13

[Sartosa]

Oh great Longbeards, I beseech thee:

Is Sartosa an actual realm, or just a hideout for bands of cut-throat pirates?

Sartosa is a part of Tilea, and IIRC it has been ruled over by a lot of peoples, Tileans, Arabyans, Norse. Quite like it's real world counterpart Sicily. ;)

kroq'gar

27-03-2008, 01:36

I have three questions involving orcs

1.Are orcs carnivores or obnivores?

2.Can Orcs make their own weapons?

3. Do Orcs ever stop growing?

1) Orcs CAN eat almost anything, but meat is the tastiest, easiest, and its obtained by violence. e.g. the infamous red-river massacre & bbq. EDIT: most obvious example is fungii (such as those whacky mushrooms they love to chew on).

2) Orcs learnt metalcraft off the chaos dwarfs when they were their slaves. However, they seldom do (again, its not violent enough). They much prefer captured human smiths, trading with the chaos dwarfs, or looting the dead.

3) This one you could argue. Its said they only stop growing when they encounter another orc bigger and badder. by this token, the biggest only stop when they are dead. The question then becomes, whats the lifespan of an orc, and how fast do they actually grow (two things GW have kept in the dark)

kroq'gar

27-03-2008, 01:46

I know i just posted, but i have a question of my own on a seperate matter.

Are there any instances of less evil darkelves, slightly darker high elves (shadow warriors aside), or of the two factions ever allying.

Asking because im themeing an army around an independant and not-so-black arc refered to as new Ulthuan; the decendants of former followers Malkeith now exiled by both sides when they thought he went to far.

Any material that could help with this (was thinking maybe something had happened in the isles).

Arnizipal

27-03-2008, 01:47

2) Orcs learnt metalcraft off the chaos dwarfs when they were their slaves. However, they seldom do (again, its not violent enough). They much prefer captured human smiths, trading with the chaos dwarfs, or looting the dead.

Actually, taking a look at the magic item section of the O&G armybook shows that there are plenty greenskin (black)smiths. I can imagine most of them being Goblins though, as Orcs aren't particularly fond of hard work and Goblins are probably better at crafting anyway.

kroq'gar

27-03-2008, 02:03

Actually, taking a look at the magic item section of the O&G armybook shows that there are plenty greenskin (black)smiths. I can imagine most of them being Goblins though, as Orcs aren't particularly fond of hard work and Goblins are probably better at crafting anyway.

Many of their best items have hints that they came from other races (eg, the runefang, best bosses hat). Others are of unknown origin and are simply named after an orc who made it famous (and with the named orc often being a green phycopath i doubt it was their own construction). I think your point about goblins may come in here: a goblin makes the item and an orc takes and names it after himself. This is backed up by fluff for the armour of protecyness (goblins rarely are allowed to name items).

This leaves those items made by the orcs themselves. They can extend themselves to such stressful activities as: painting themselves, covering their boots in metal, attaching giant metal teeth to their head, and a of course.... a lovely figureen of Mork made with their own *ehem*.

Cap'n Facebeard

28-03-2008, 01:09

[Empire mines]

Does anyone have any info on whether the Empire has its own extensive mining, or does it mostly obtain its minerals from Dwarven clans?

kroq'gar

11-04-2008, 23:53

Sorry for the vague nature of this post- yes it does. The catacombs under middenheim for example are human created and contain mining facilities (and skaven).

Again, terrible post, but i remember reading somewhere that they have a habit of taking over abandoned dwarven mines. Someone please fill in the blanks, its a good question.

Edit- 'one of these smithies produces as much steel as the whole of the empire' - G & F. This isnt saying the empires bad at it, just how efficient the dwarves are. Imperial dwarves also account for alot of the mining and metalwork within the empire.

ercan_sinar

20-04-2008, 21:14

[Kislev]

Hi Longbeards,

I was reading Citadel Journal 14 and it mentions "huns, taiga, Farside, and Castle Alexsandronov". of these people and places I heard nothing before. Are they part of official background nowadays? Do you have any information regarding them?

RobC

20-04-2008, 21:39

Huns and Taiga are borrowed directly from real life. The huns were a nomadic tribe who swept into Europe in the 4th century, most famously under Attila. It's been a while since I read Tuomas Pirinen's Citadel Journal stuff but I think he just appropriated the name for another grouping of people to augment the existing Dolgans/Roppsmen/Ungols/Gospodars, and they never made the transition into official background.

Taiga is a biome type - think the endless coniferous forests of Siberia and you'll get the idea. This was (I think) mentioned in the old Something Rotten in Kislev background but is essentially just another way of describing the wooded territory.

Farside was the Kislevite territory to the east of the Worlds Edge Mountains. It was sparsely colonised, and suffered from the ravages of the native human and hobgoblin nomads of the region. It vanished in the shift to fourth edition; Tuomas tried to bring it back when he became head of Warhammer, but judging from the most recent WFRP sourcebooks it's been dropped again as a concept.

Arnizipal

21-04-2008, 10:07

Farside was the Kislevite territory to the east of the Worlds Edge Mountains. It was sparsely colonised, and suffered from the ravages of the native human and hobgoblin nomads of the region. It vanished in the shift to fourth edition; Tuomas tried to bring it back when he became head of Warhammer, but judging from the most recent WFRP sourcebooks it's been dropped again as a concept.
Didn't Tzarina Katarin's grandfather die fighting Goblins to the east of Kislev?
Could be Kislev stopped expanding past the World Edge mountains after their Tzar died.

ercan_sinar

22-04-2008, 14:38

Thanks for the answers guys.

DigbyWeapon

25-04-2008, 01:22

[High Elves]
I have heard that when Aenarion saw khaines sword it appeared as a sword, but when Malekith went to see it he saw it ace a staff or mace?
Sorry if there is too little info but thats all I can remember.
Is it true?

Eldacar

25-04-2008, 04:11

Aenarion saw the Widowmaker as a sword, as did Tyrion. Caledor saw a lance, and Malekith saw a scepter. Nobody knows what Tethlis saw, because he died before anybody could be told.

And yes, the Widowmaker appears differently to each person who looks upon it (with the odd exception of Tyrion).

Giladis

25-04-2008, 07:00

It took the same form, but none can say that it looked the same. After all didn't it say that the hilt was perfectly fitting for his hand, I sencerely doubt he and Aenarion have the same hands.

DigbyWeapon

25-04-2008, 07:01

Thanks guys,
haha, I like the name Widowmaker XD
Thanks longbeards

Digby

DigbyWeapon

17-05-2008, 10:18

So what about orcs? I heard that they are fungi? So they keep growing from fungi or what? Or do they have like a mating season or something?

Digby

RobC

17-05-2008, 10:37

[Orcs]

There's no official line on how any greenskins reproduce. It's hinted in the 7th edition rulebook that they are similar to WH40K orks, but nothing has been made explicit.

Tastyfish

18-05-2008, 11:49

Well...its not been spelled out specifically but there are some very strong hints that they are similar to the 40K orcs - the Imperials not knowing where orcs and goblins come from, (though that said I think they are at the period of science where 'spontaneous generation' is the more widely accepted theory of where rats, flies and maggots come from). They aren't the same as the 40K orks though, since those have had some serious meddling (adding the artificial 'Kultur' chromosome, combining the whole orkoid ecosystem into one organism rather than being distinct species, making the fungal stage of their lifecycle more hardy)

However GW's creative manager (Alan Merrit?) told the WAR designers that Orcs do indeed come from spores and were brought to the warhammer world unintentionally by the Slann's silver ships in the same sort of way that seeds, spores and the like are spread by birds, planes and ships in the real world.

So in the warhammer world, the orcs don't care where orcs come from and nobody else in the game world knows - hence there is no mention of it backgroundwise. However they are indeed similar to the 40K orks officially according to the IP.

GideonRavenor

18-05-2008, 14:41

(Naggaroth)

Just something that's plagued me for a while: does anyone know anything about Arnheim? It's on the map as beign towards the south of Naggaroth, but it's never mentioned. It doesn't really sound Druchii at all...

Tastyfish

18-05-2008, 15:07

Its a typo that crept in around 4th ed and has stuck - was originally Arnhelm, it's a High elf city. The Dark elves raid it occasionally but can't get a large enough army to wipe it out as its protected by the Doomglades to the south, the Ulthuan patrolled coast to the east and the moutains to the north.

Its mentioned in a story involving Shades (then scouts) in the 5th ed army book. Other than the surrounding area being patrolled by Silver Helms there isn't a lot of information there.

DigbyWeapon

19-05-2008, 06:15

[Southern Wastes]
Is there anything on the southern wastes? Like who runs the place and what are the races?

Arnizipal

19-05-2008, 10:00

IIRC the map in the Beasts of Chaos book says there are beastmen there.
Besides that, only daemons most likely. And Chaos Penguins. :p

Chiron

19-05-2008, 11:55

The Old Ones live there, deep in the mountains of madness.... ;)

shrubs

20-06-2008, 19:38

[Bretonnia]

On page 38 of the current Bretonnian army book, it mentions that in the Imperial year 770 the land of Bretonnia is formed into 16 separate areas, including Cuileux and Glanborielle. It then states in later years that these two areas are destroyed by Orcs, and are merged into neighboring areas.

Basically, does any fluff besides this exist regarding Glanborielle and Cuileux? Or are they just small details to spice up the background?

Thanks in advance

Vandur Last

22-06-2008, 16:27

RobC

22-06-2008, 18:21

I wouldn't take that line literally. Perhaps the Nehekharans believed that to be the case, but there's an important distinction between the gods (warp entities worshipped by the lesser races) and the Old Ones (extraterrestrial entities with powers of a seemingly godlike nature).

CommanderCax

23-06-2008, 07:57

[Lizardmen and Tomb Kings]

In the Lizardmen book it mentions that Men, along with Elves and Dwarfs were guided towards civilization by the Old Ones. In the Introduction section of the Tomb Kings book it says of ancient Nehekhara that they were so favoured that the earliest of them were taught directly by the Gods.

Is there any other reference to a link between Tomb Kings and Lizardmen, or any indication that they might be on good terms with each other?

It is indeed an indication that the Old Ones taught the ancient Nehekharans a couple of things. In the same way as they tought the Elves and the Dwarfs. It could explain the similiarities in the shape of their pyramids and their entombment technique (maybe the writers were inspired by some Erich von Däniken stuff...). The ancient Nehekharans saw the mighty Old Ones most probably as gods. They certainly could not distinguish between as what we define as a true god (ie. a warppower) or an almighty Old One. Not that it mattered to them anyway... Maybe the Nehekharan pantheon was even inspired by the appearance of the Old Ones.

Nowadays I doubt that they are still on particular 'good terms' with each other as both sides won't remember any cooperation. If I remember correctly there was a short story in the 5th edition Lizardmen army list about an army of Lizardmen trying to reclaim some lost treasure from the Nehekharans. Maybe that could hold some interesting information in this regard.

Armilthuan

23-06-2008, 08:20

[High Elves]

The Tower of the Rising Sun, located under Nippon. Is there any general history known? What happened to it's inhabitants? And if it suffered a not so pleasant fate, do the High elves know of it?

Thanks in advance.

Doominator

01-07-2008, 18:54

[Skaven]
Is there anymore fluff on the Black Plague specifically? All I know is that Clan Pestilens made the plauge and released it across the empire and then invaded it and they were eventually driven back by Mandred Skavenslayer and the undead.
Anymore fluff on this time of history would be nice since its interesting to see the skaven actually manage to invade a nation abovground.
Also is this the only time the Skaven invaded the Empire, instead of hiding like they are now?

Arnizipal

01-07-2008, 19:48

It happened in Imperial Year 1111. The plague wiped out 2/3 of the the Empire's population IIRC. All those dead are what allowed Frederick van Hal to raise such a huge army in Sylvania. Wanting the Empire for himself van Hal set out to take Empire from the Skaven. Both forces battled each other until neither was strong enough to stand up to the (probably raggedy) force Count Mandred could pull together.

Doominator

02-07-2008, 04:48

[Skaven]
Okay but has the Skaven ever managed to bring the Empire nearly to its knees or not?
Also Im reading the Book of the Rat, a compilation of material on the Skaven of the WHFRPG game, and it mentions that the Cult of the Horned Rat is flexing its muscles and plans for another massive above-ground invasion with something called the Black Ark. Could somebody tell me what the Black Ark is?

Arnizipal

02-07-2008, 10:10

The 1111 black plague attack is as close as the Skaven erver came to total domination.
If it weren't for the undead (and the fact that Skaven weren't immune to black plague themselves :rolleyes: ) the Empire would be speaking Queekish right now. :p

Isn't the Black Ark a sacred pillar in Skavenblight?
IIRC the Horned Rat placed it there himself and every Grey Seer has to touch it at the end of his training to prove his worth. Unworthy Grey Seers die.

CommanderCax

05-07-2008, 15:11

[Skaven]
Could somebody tell me what the Black Ark is?

The Black Ark is a magical and unholy artifact of the Skaven. It was described as a black casket containing a huge piece of enchanted warpstone and was kept in Skavenblight.

In 2491 IC Bagrian, a High Priest of Taal and abbot of La Maisontaal, infiltrated Skavenblight, stole the unholy Black Arc from the Ratmen and brought it to his monastery within the Grey Mountains in Bretonnia. Only a few days later the Skaven attacked the monastery of La Maisontaal at the same time as the Necromancer Heinrich Kemmler did - with whom they were allied to temporarily - to reobtain the Black Arc from Bagrian. In the end the Skaven seized the artifact and fled. This incident is known as the Battle for La Maisontaal.

kroq'gar

06-07-2008, 04:12

That wasnt the black arc, that was something else. Blackarc is something new, possibley a little like the last arc (big boom for middenheim).

in answer to the black plaugue-
During the plaugue bands of skaven roamed freely. What prevented them from rising to power, rather than the undead, was the accidental transition of the black plaugue to skaven blight- their own weapon turned against them. Theres a funny story of when it occurs- a frozen, dying clanrat who had to eat his own tail ran to skavenblight to inform them of the outbreak- and took it there himself.

RobC

06-07-2008, 12:46

CommanderCax is right, actually. The Black Ark, first referenced in the Terror of the Licehmaster campaign supplement, is an extremely powerful and dangerous artefact that Bagrian somehow stole from Skavenblight to power his mechanical creation.

Factoid: in the original art for the game, this robot looked very much like a dalek...

Solon

17-07-2008, 20:30

Is Karl Franz married? Does he have progeny either legitmate or illegitimate?
How old is Karl Franz?

I understand the Elector Count system has elected three Altdorfian Emperors in a row. For that reason I'd like to know if there is a future Aldorfian fourth Emperor (or Empress) in swaddling cloth or learning to ride a horse.

RobC

17-07-2008, 21:08

There's some confusion as to Karl-Franz's family life, thanks to the various revisions that the background has suffered over the years.

In his original appearance in The Enemy Within Campaign, KF had no offspring, and his named heir was his sister's eldest son, Wolfgang. I don't think he was married, either.

This differs from his appearance in early Warhammer fiction. In Drachenfels 'the empress' is mentioned, and KF has a son, Luitpold, who makes several appearances in Jack Yeovil's novels.

More recent material tends to avoid the issue.

Kidjal

17-07-2008, 22:24

I do remember the Konrad series mentioning an empress, and also that the emperor quite regulary attended the court of talabecland, where he was rumoured to be involved with someone else.

Solon

18-07-2008, 18:43

Thank you for the info on Karl Franz.

The Next Question deals with Part 1 of the Sigmar trilogy. Don't read this post until you've read the book!

Next Question: When I read the first installment of Sigmar Heldenhammer I had the sense that Fate is a driving theme in Warhammer. I'm not claiming there is one strand or that destiny is 'set in stone' and I've heard its like a tapestry of possibilities. OTOH, Sigmar isn't an accident and the heavy competition between the old gods and the dark gods narrowed the possibilities of Sigmar and humanity's survival or destruction to a very few. When..Sigmar is betrayed by the brother of his love, Ravenna(?) (I can't recall the name, humbug) the traitor seems to be really fighting his destiny. When his teenage resentment overcame all of his personal growth from the interim, I found the inner struggle to be unnatural. In Gerroed(?)'s case I thought he was targeted and consumed by a dark fate due to the old gods and the dark gods working through him at the same time. The Old gods use him to make Sigmar a stronger hero. The dark gods are using him.. well to kill Sigmar and who can guess what else.

Is Fate sometimes stronger than Free-Will or often stronger? Does Fate play as strong a role in what happens as in the Greek mythos?:confused:

stormblade

19-07-2008, 14:32

Thank you for the info on Karl Franz.
Is Fate sometimes stronger than Free-Will or often stronger? Does Fate play as strong a role in what happens as in the Greek mythos?:confused:

This is warhammer it depends of how you choose to perceive it.

Also keep in mind that that book speaks of Sigmar somebody whose birth was prophesied and who is to become a god later(it can be seen in the book even if somebody didn't have a clue about warhammer)- which makes it a poor example.

Kidjal

19-07-2008, 20:48