Ask the Longbeards about the good old days of Fantasy Background

[RobC]

Uh, interesting, I didn't knew that. Haven't read a Felix&Gotrek novel since Giantslayer. Is it mentioned when it takes place?At some point after the end of the Storm of Chaos. Which is fun, given that the army books are now set before the SoC.

[Zoring]

Timeline:

Oh mighty Warhammer beards, we have at least two different human calenders within the Old World, the Brettonian and the Empire one, they both seem to have a different chronology of how many years constitute a day. My question is thus, how do the calnders correspond to the Christian calender year (356 day cycle) how many days are in an Imperial Year, and conversely how many in a Bretonnian one?

[Tastyfish]

CALENDAR
Scholars report that the Known World takes 400 days to travel around its sun (a much larger and hotter star than our own) and is orbited by two moons. The larger of these - known in The Empire as Mannslieb (or “Beloved of Manann”) - has a cycle of 25 days from full to full, and looks not unlike the moon of our world. The other - named Mórrslieb (or “Beloved of Mórr”) - is erratic, appearing now closer, now further away than its partner.

MONTHS AND FESTIVALS
There are as many calendars in the Known World as there are races and countries but the one you will be referring to is standard throughout The Empire. The Imperial Calendar divides the year into 12 months of 32 or 33 days, with six
days that fall between the months and are not numbered. Four of these six are festivals connected to seasonal events - the summer and winter solstices and the spring and autumn equinoxes - while the other two mark the occasions when both moons are full. These last are greatly feared and even the most hardened cynics stay out of the eerie light cast by the moons on Hexensnacht (“Witching Night”) and Geheimnisnacht (“Night of Mystery”).

The months and holy days are listed below along with their respective translations:

Month Translation

Hexenstag Witching Day
Nachexen After-Witching
Jahrdrung Year-Turn
Mitterfruhl Spring equinox
Pflugzeit Ploughtide
Sigmarzeit Sigmartide
Sommerzeit Summertide
Sonnstill Summer solstice
Vorgeheim Fore-Mystery
Geheimnistag Day of Mystery
Nachgeheim After-Mystery
Erntezeit Harvest-tide
Mittherbst Autumn equinox
Brauzeit Brewmonth
Kaldezeit Chillmonth
Ulriczeit Ulrictide
Mondstille Winter solstice
Vorhexen Fore-Witching

Within the Empire, major festivals and feast-days do not fall on a day of the week. Imagine it as: Monday, Tuesday, Midsummer day, Wednesday, Thursday… This gives the festivals an extra emphasis, making them stand apart from the rest of the week. Festivals and feast-days are not normal days, they are important events in the religions and beliefs of the Old World, and they are far more than a excuse for a day off. Anyone who expects to find people conducting normal business on a festival-day is going to be disappointed.

DAYS OF THE WEEK
There are eight days in the Imperial week, whose names probably date back to pre-Empire times. The days are listed below along with their respective translations:

Day Translation

Wellentag Workday
Aubentag Levyday
Marktag Marketday
Backertag Bakeday
Bezahltag Taxday
Konigstag Kingday
Angestag Startweek
Festag Holiday

The reasons for such names are now largely forgotten and, while a market is still generally held on Marktag wherever you are in The Empire, Holidays vary according to the deity of the local temples and shrines. Of the eight days of the week, Festag is technically a day of rest, reserved for worship. Shops should be shut and no work or trade be done. However, this varies from area to area, depending on
the harshness of the local ruler and the amount of hold that priests and temples have over the local community.

From Warpstone, though I think this was then incorporated into WFRP v2. No idea on the Brettonian one, though given that the days of the week predate the Empire (which itself is about 1000 years older than Brettonia) they probably use the same model with a few different names. Could be dwarf in origin, as the elves don't use months and only have seasons.

[Zoring]

Interesting, so the year is actually longer. I would have thought it was shorter than ours since they are in year... 2900? Or something?

Oh another question, how long has the Empire been in it's current 'fashion' the Germannic style puffy sleeves, how many years has that been going on? The past 50 years? Since 1,000 years back? What did people used to wear 100 years ago in the Empire? Don't imagine that it's been in the fluff

[Tastyfish]

Definitely less than 1000, as 1000 years ago they seemed to have a more saxon/norman styling (going off the Brettonian tapestries). I'd also suggest that the current Imperial aesthetic stems from originally Brettonian designs (probably via Marienburg) as the 'slashes' in sleeves and hose appear to be a reaction to the Brettonian sumptuary laws that dictate what nobles and commoners may wear.

From that, I'd guess the designs first really entered the Empire when Marienburg was occupied by Brettonia. Nobles swearing fealty to the new king would probably adopt the fashions of the foreign courts as a display of loyalty, which would then filter back into the Empire when they mixed with distant family in other provinces.

[Zoring]

Thank you Fish, you are a treasure :)

[Chiron]

Tome of Salvation contains a great deal of information on the Calendar of the Warhammer World.

I worked on this from the information in it http://www.freewebs.com/kalevalahammer/wfrp2_expansion_tileandiary.pdf

[Alathir]

[The Empire]

What time around did blackpowder become a mass-used product as it is in the current day Empire?

[Arnizipal]

Interesting, so the year is actually longer. I would have thought it was shorter than ours since they are in year... 2900? Or something?
It's even more interesting when you start thinking about ages. Somebody who's 25 in the Warhammer World would actually be significantly older by our calendar.

[ScarabKing]

[Skaven]

In the current lore does the Empire still not believe in the existence of the Skaven?

[RobC]

[Skaven]

In the current lore does the Empire still not believe in the existence of the Skaven?It's not that they don't believe in skaven, but that it's policy to encourage the belief that skaven are nothing more than beastmen.

Presumably the upper echelons of authority are aware that there are skaven outposts under most of the Old World, and have to suppress this information to ensure everyone doesn't go a bit loopy.

[Artinam]

I don't know about the gunpowder availability, I do know that at the time of Mordheim gunpowder weapons were rare, unreliable and expensive. (around 2300, after the time of Magnus the Pious they were still a rare weapon).

For the Skaven
Yes and no, Skaven work actively to remove any notion of themselves in old and recent history (In Gotrek and Felix the population was convinced they were a type of beastmen and not rats). They do this with magic or using their human contacts.

I seriously doubt that the nobles, higher up officers and the emperor are unware of the Skaven as allies like the Dwarves are very well aware of them. I do think that the Skaven and the nobles alike, prefer the current situation where the common people are kept in the dark, instead of them knowing there is a sentient rat race, having highly advanced and deadly weaponry and near endless numbers.

[ClanSkyreFTW]

Dwarf
What information is known about Karak Hirn (asides whats in the army book), a round of Bugman's finest to the longbeard who helps out a ignorant beardling.

[Arnizipal]

Going by the description in Dwarfs: Stone and Steel so the info might be retconned in the mean time:

Karak Hirn is the largest and wealthiest hold in the Black mountains, mining mostly iron, gold and silver. Its name means Horn Hold. The hold was named this way for a unique natural phenomenon: when the wind blows from the right direction, the air passing trough an especially large cavern creates a sound like a mighty warhorn and can be heard up to 15 miles away. The Dwarfs of Karak Hirn have over the years added additional sound chambers and doors which can control the pitch and duration of the sound, which is now used for signaling, raising the alarm or to scare away simple creatures like trolls. The "Horn of Hirn" can be sounded even on a windless day by lighting a large fire in a certain chamber, drawing air through the hold.

Karak Hirn has a number of halls set aside for trading with humans, the so called Merchant Halls. Visitors can walk these halls unattended as they are separated from the rest of the hold. The only way from the Merchant Halls to Karak Hirn proper is through a large set of fortified doors. The doors are guarded by a company of Ironbreakers and only resident Dwarfs may pass through. Non-Dwarf visitors can only enter the hold on request of the King.

[ClanSkyreFTW]

Interesting thanks for the information it will flesh out my armies background a lot more.

[Francis]

Does anybody have any info on Tor Elasor? Other than the fact that it is a High Elf colony and port?

[ghost21]

from a background point of view are trolls counted as greenskins?

[Arnizipal]

No, they're a relatively stable form of mutant (which is one of reasons they're also available in Chaos armies).

[ScarabKing]

UNDEAD

I was reading the new Tomb Kings army book and the section mentions the Dark Lords of Nagash, I know Arkhan the Black was part of the club, but who were the other 8(?) members?

[Chiron]

I would assume it was the vampires, Nagash saw them as his lieutenants initially.

[Arnizipal]

Indeed, the Master Vampires were Dark Lords/Ladies (until most of them betrayed Nagash).
Krell and Kemmler also joined the club later on.

[Slipknotman21]

Warriors of Chaos

Where can I find any info on Mork-Hai the Savage?

Thanks

[Athelassan]

The Dark Lords of Nagash (five of them) have been a fixture of the background rather longer than the vampire bloodlines and I have a feeling that they were at one stage all named. I believe that the Dark Lords were most significant during his campaign against the Empire following his resurrection, although as far as I'm aware Arkhan didn't participate and so they may predate this. Villain inflation might also have seen their numbers bumped up to nine, but I can't help but wonder if that's by confusion with the Nazgul.

Those of which I am certain are Arkhan the Black, Zahaak the Worm and Krell. There's also an older special character by the name of Virion the Grim who was explicitly listed as a Dark Lord. The fifth could be W'Soran, but I don't think that was the intention.

Ath

[BorderKing]

A mate of mine recently got some runequest ducks, and I was wondering where they fit in the fluff?

[Chiron]

Drive your opponent quackers

[BorderKing]

I thought Runequest was set in the fantasy world?

[mrtn]

It's not.

[Arnizipal]

The Dark Lords of Nagash (five of them) have been a fixture of the background rather longer than the vampire bloodlines and I have a feeling that they were at one stage all named. I believe that the Dark Lords were most significant during his campaign against the Empire following his resurrection, although as far as I'm aware Arkhan didn't participate and so they may predate this. Villain inflation might also have seen their numbers bumped up to nine, but I can't help but wonder if that's by confusion with the Nazgul.

Those of which I am certain are Arkhan the Black, Zahaak the Worm and Krell. There's also an older special character by the name of Virion the Grim who was explicitly listed as a Dark Lord. The fifth could be W'Soran, but I don't think that was the intention.

AthAccording to the Liber Necris, the Master Vampires that fled to Nagash (all of the known bloodline masters except for Abhorash) served in his armies as his Dark Lords (and one Dark Lady I suppose).

[Zoring]

Oh great beardy ones! What is the most likely great Dwarven hall to be recovered that borders the Empire, if a great joint undertaking between the Dwarves and the Empire was t be launched?

[CommanderCax]

Oh great beardy ones! What is the most likely great Dwarven hall to be recovered that borders the Empire, if a great joint undertaking between the Dwarves and the Empire was t be launched?

Maybe Karak Varn near the border to Stirland and a day's treck from Zhufbar.

[Meame]

[VAMPIRE COUNTS & EMPIRE]

I was wondering if there was ever any Undead presence in the province of Middenheim, be it vampiric or necromantic.

Furthermore, who are some of the more notable characters from Middenheim, both wizards and feral combatants!

Thank you :)

[CommanderCax]

[VAMPIRE COUNTS & EMPIRE]

I was wondering if there was ever any Undead presence in the province of Middenheim, be it vampiric or necromantic.

Furthermore, who are some of the more notable characters from Middenheim, both wizards and feral combatants!

Thank you :)

There was a major Undead presence in the form of the necromancer Dieter Hellsnich - the so called Doomlord of Middenheim. He was assumingly killed at the Battle of Beckerhoven in 1244 IC.
The current fluff also indicates that Middenheim was once more or less conquered by Vlad von Carstein during the Vampire Wars.

Due to the limited space in Middenheim the dead of Middenheim are often simply tossed over the edge of the Fauschlag. At least those that cannot afford a proper grave. This in turn led to the odd Necromancer and Ghouls to be lingering at the base of the Fauschlag.

There are a lot of notable characters from Middenheim. Could you be more precise what kind of characters you mean? The most important wizards are Albrecht Hellseher and Janna Eberhauer if I remember correctly (have to check my books when at home tonight).

[nurgle5]

[Dwarfs]

Does anyone have any information about Karak Sadra or Kallad Stormwarden, their appearance, symbols etc;? Do they crop up anywhere apart from the info given in the von carstein novels?
Thanks :D

[Dargon]

[Dwarfs]

Does anyone have any information about Karak Sadra or Kallad Stormwarden, their appearance, symbols etc;? Do they crop up anywhere apart from the info given in the von carstein novels?
Thanks :D
For my part, I've never heard of them, so unfortunately I'd wager they are exclusive to the Von Carstein novels (I don't own the old Stone & Steel WHFRP book, so don't know if they turn up in there). Odds are they were created by Steven Savile specifically for the trilogy, and probably the best place to hope for another potential appearance might be other books he's written (of which I think there is only one - Curse of the Necrarch (2008)).

Just a thought...

[Slipknotman21]

[Warriors of Chaos/Dwarves]
Looking for information regarding the siege of the Slayer Hold during the Storm of Chaos?

Also wondering the where abouts of the two opposing generals,the Slayer King,and Vardek Crom.

[Dark Aly]

[VAMPIRE COUNTS & EMPIRE]

I was wondering if there was ever any Undead presence in the province of Middenheim, be it vampiric or necromantic.

Furthermore, who are some of the more notable characters from Middenheim, both wizards and feral combatants!

Thank you :)

In the Von Carstein novels the grand master of the white wolves was turned into a vampire by Vlad, his name was Jerek kruger/Von Carstein (named after his sire)

EDIT: he killed Vlad in single combat and when the ring resurected Vlas he came back for revenge.

[stormblade]

In the Von Carstein novels the grand master of the white wolves was turned into a vampire by Vlad, his name was Jerek kruger/Von Carstein (named after his sire)

EDIT: he killed Vlad in single combat and when the ring resurected Vlas he came back for revenge.

Vlad was killed by a Grand Theogonist of Sigmar- Wilhelm the III., Jerek fought Manfred and took Vlad's ring from him.

edit: sorry, I missed some parts
Vlad was killed several times while he had the ring, once by the wolves

[TheMadMarquis]

[Lizardmen]
How do the Slann breed Skinks and Saurus? Do they select a few perfect specimens from each generation and let them spawn, or are the spawn magically created?

More broadly, are there female lizardmen?

[Arnizipal]

[Lizardmen]
How do the Slann breed Skinks and Saurus?
Do they select a few perfect specimens from each generation and let them spawn, or are the spawn magically created?

They are magically spawned from certain pools, as forseen in the plans of the Old Ones. The Slann have no direct control over the spawnings.


[Lizardmen]
More broadly, are there female lizardmen?
All Lizardmen are effectively genderless IIRC (despite their name).

[ivan55599]

---Chaos 4+5th edition---
is there any picture for Count Mordrek and Valnir the Reaper (as miniatyre)? yes yes, I've already googled.

[CommanderCax]

---Chaos 4+5th edition---
is there any picture for Count Mordrek and Valnir the Reaper (as miniatyre)? yes yes, I've already googled.

This (http://whfb.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/images/d/d0/Valnir.jpg) is the original picture of Valnir (Äsling) the Reaper from WFB 5th edition (Champions of Chaos supplement) and this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/Horgh/valnir.jpg) is a later picture from Liber Chaotica. The Champions of Chaos supplemsent also had a picture of Count Mordrek the Damned if I remember correctly, but I could not find a picture right now.

[ivan55599]

This (http://whfb.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/images/d/d0/Valnir.jpg) is the original picture of Valnir (Äsling) the Reaper from WFB 5th edition (Champions of Chaos supplement) and this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/Horgh/valnir.jpg) is a later picture from Liber Chaotica. The Champions of Chaos supplemsent also had a picture of Count Mordrek the Damned if I remember correctly, but I could not find a picture right now.

thanks. but so does this mean that there's no actual miniatyres for them?

[Toddums]

(Empire, Ostermark)

Oh wise ones,

If you could tell me some of the main differences or unique aspects of Ostermark I would be grateful.

[enyoss]

thanks. but so does this mean that there's no actual miniatyres for them?

No, there aren't. I also don't remember any picture for Count Mordrekin any book, and I thought that always added to his mystique (I might be wrong though).

[Earthcild]

[Lizardmen]

Are there any rules and a model for the Sacred Kroxigor Nakai?

[CommanderCax]

(Empire, Ostermark)

Oh wise ones,

If you could tell me some of the main differences or unique aspects of Ostermark I would be grateful.

This (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65628) thread gives a good overview in regard to Ostermark.

[Toddums]

This (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65628) thread gives a good overview in regard to Ostermark.

Thanks Commander, I was looking at that one earlier. A question, is there any info on what the capital Bechafen is like? Also, how feasible would it be for wizards to be in the area (and what lore would they most likely study if there were some), and would it be likely for the capital of Ostermark to have canons and the like?

[Tastyfish]

[Lizardmen]

Are there any rules and a model for the Sacred Kroxigor Nakai?

No model, but there was some rules in the US or Canadian WD/webpages as part of a store based campaign they were running. Nothing from the UK studio and nothing that someone outside of the country where the campaign was being run would have seen.

[CommanderCax]

[Lizardmen]

Are there any rules and a model for the Sacred Kroxigor Nakai?

As Tastyfish mentioned there were rules for him within the context of a mini campaign of GW USA as well as for some sort of campaing event of the 2005 summer campaign from GW UK.

This is a picture of a fan made conversion: 114323



Thanks Commander, I was looking at that one earlier. A question, is there any info on what the capital Bechafen is like? Also, how feasible would it be for wizards to be in the area (and what lore would they most likely study if there were some), and would it be likely for the capital of Ostermark to have canons and the like?

There is some info in Sigmar's Heirs from WFRP 2nd ed. Bechafen is described as a compact city crowded behind its defensive walls with narrow and tall wooden buildings that have a gloomy look. It has a population of 7,600 and its main source of income is trade, agriculture, timber and boat-building.

It is still feasable for wizards to be there, even though Altdorf and the Colleges of Magic are far away. I would assume Magisters of the Amber and Jade Colleges could be around in Ostermark as they are the more reclusive and attuned to nature types and not so much the bookish types of Altdorf. The WFRP 1st ed. supplement Realms of Sorcery placed the Fire College of elemental magic in Bechafen, though this is certainly not up to date with todays canon so to speak.

I would assume that the capital of an imperial county most probably has access to cannons and the like. Most probably from the Gunnery School of Nuln, but the Dwarfs of Karak Kadrin are also nearby and could supply them with gunpowder. After all, it is a frontier region and thus in the interest of the rest of the Empire that anything coming their way is already halted in the League of Ostermark.

[Toddums]

Thank you kindly for your quick and concise response!

[ivan55599]

---Chaos 4-5th ed---

I think there is also no model for Chaos Gorgon?
It has same base size as spawn, and looks like Greek mythology Gorgon? What weapons does it have?

[Prince Kaelor]

High Elves

Just wondering how many Princes the realms of Ulthuan have ??

[CommanderCax]

---Chaos 4-5th ed---

I think there is also no model for Chaos Gorgon?
It has same base size as spawn, and looks like Greek mythology Gorgon? What weapons does it have?

In 3rd ed. models of the Chaos Gorgon existed, but they were on small bases and not on monster bases.
114572

For the Chaos Gorgon of the 4th ed. Chaos Army List models never existed as far as I know. In the 6th ed. High Elf Army List they are also mentioned and even have rules in the appendix if I remember correctly.

The artwork showed her as heavily inspired by greek mythology and armed with rusty daggers.
114573



High Elves

Just wondering how many Princes the realms of Ulthuan have ??

At the very least one for every kingdow I would say, even though it seems to be an overall term for the higher male nobility of Ulthuan and thus more widespread and not just restricted to the ruling line/house of each kingdom.
Every single Dragon Prince seem to be a prince after all and so Caledor alone has a couple of more princes than just Prince Imrik.

[Sensko]

don´t forget that Silverhelms are also princes, so yeathere are lots.

[Arnizipal]

don´t forget that Silverhelms are also princes, so yeathere are lots.
I thought Silver Helms were young sons of nobles, not specifically princes.

[Sensko]

Ok, just re-read armybook and it ony says heyre nobles and that allprinces got to serve there before becoming generals. my bad

[TheMaster]

Bretonnians

Where is the colony of Antoch?

[Arnizipal]

Wasn't it that city in the New World that got besieged by the Lizardmen (as shown on the 5th edition boxed set box art)?

[CommanderCax]

Bretonnians

Where is the colony of Antoch?

I somehow remember it being located at some sort of bay between Araby and the Southlands, though I have no map at hand. Here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2359) is an older WarSeer thread about it.

[TheMaster]

Also, are there any known Bretonnian colonies in Araby? Or did they just crusade it a couple of times and leave?

[ivan55599]

Did marauder footmen ever got bows and/or javelins/throwing axes ingame?

[Alathir]

DARK ELVES

What can anyone tell me about the anointed of slaanesh? Is there any decent background on them out there still around?

[Arnizipal]

Did marauder footmen ever got bows and/or javelins/throwing axes ingame?
I think that back in third edition there where Chaos "thugs" around that used bows.


DARK ELVES

What can anyone tell me about the anointed of slaanesh? Is there any decent background on them out there still around?
Since Sorm of Chaos nothing new has been told about them, and since Morathi is no longer a Slaaneshi cultist in the current background I doubt we'll be hearing anything at all about the Anointed ever gain.

[Reptile]

Dwarfs.

Would a Runesmith ever sell his skills as a mercenary?

[The bearded one]

Anything is possible, though I highly doubt it. In fact I doubt they even leave the dwarven realm much. They've got all the tools, room and materials, as well as a hefty pile of respect and authority, in the holds, so there is little reason for them to wander off and sell their skills. They've got immense status in the dwarven holds, rivalling and sometimes exceeding that of nobles and lords, as well as great wealth, so there is almost nothing to gain from a mercenary life. They might've been shamed by something and felt forced to leave their hold, or they might have been expelled from the runesmith guild and gone off to sell their skills in the empire (what elector count wouldn't jump at the chance to employ a runesmith to make magic armour and weapons for him and his captains?).

[Chiron]

Anything is possible, though I highly doubt it. In fact I doubt they even leave the dwarven realm much. They've got all the tools, room and materials, as well as a hefty pile of respect and authority, in the holds, so there is little reason for them to wander off and sell their skills. They've got immense status in the dwarven holds, rivalling and sometimes exceeding that of nobles and lords, as well as great wealth, so there is almost nothing to gain from a mercenary life. They might've been shamed by something and felt forced to leave their hold, or they might have been expelled from the runesmith guild and gone off to sell their skills in the empire (what elector count wouldn't jump at the chance to employ a runesmith to make magic armour and weapons for him and his captains?).

I could see a lot of failed apprentices leaving the holds and Dwarven realms, especially those who are more inventive. Runesmiths have very high standards and failing to progress or being rejected by their masters would lead to some attrition of younger smiths.

Alternatively there may be Slayer Runesmiths wandering around who have shaved there heads due to being failed by there masters or unable to do a specific rune. Or adventurous apprentices seeking ancient Master Runes from the ruins of the past take on mercenary work to pay for this or find them.

[Reptile]

Unlikely but possible...
Slayer Runesmith... What a badass concept that is! I think it unlikely a runesmith that took the oath would use his skills, concentrating only on finding his doom.
I mean a miner that becomes a slayer does not do a bit of mining on the side, does he?
Would an apprentice that is privy to the secrets of rune making be allowed to leave the hold so easily? I mean Dwarfs are notoriously possessive and secretive, aren't that?

[The bearded one]

Odly enough Malakaison is a slayer but goes on engineering like a nutter nonetheless.

[Chiron]

Odly enough Malakaison is a slayer but goes on engineering like a nutter nonetheless.

Thats what I'm basing this on.

While the Dwarf knows the secret of the runes if he's not good enough to complete his training then he's no use to the Runesmith, if he's spent 30 years trying to learn and fails then he's no good to the hold. As he brings shame on his clan then its good bloody riddance to him.

[The bearded one]

Thorek Ironbrow went through a stream of apprentices before he got Kraggi as apprentice. Kraggi has been smithing for about a 100 years. Other apprentices who did not meet Thorek's exact standards found themselves back working in the mines. They weren't expelled from the hold or anything.

However apprentices are not runesmiths, so can't really sell his skills as a runesmith mercenary if he doesn't have any runesmithing skills, can he?

Your last suggestion seems quite sound though and it does not even need to be an apprentice. Runelords and runesmiths often go on expeditions from dwarven holds to find treasures and old (master) runes from ruined holds. Some runesmiths might join up with a mercenary band headed in the direction of whereever he wants to go. Others might wander into the empire before settling in a dwarven district or in the service of a count or lord.

[Artinam]

I find it very possible, that they can exist. Perhaps as a survivor of a lost hold, or indeed a dissapointed apprentice that is withheld from learning more runes or something.

[Chiron]

Thorek Ironbrow went through a stream of apprentices before he got Kraggi as apprentice. Kraggi has been smithing for about a 100 years. Other apprentices who did not meet Thorek's exact standards found themselves back working in the mines. They weren't expelled from the hold or anything.

However apprentices are not runesmiths, so can't really sell his skills as a runesmith mercenary if he doesn't have any runesmithing skills, can he?


An apprentice runesmith can presumably strike at least *some* runes, to anyone but a Dwarf he's a full fledged Runesmith.

For those who cant cast even the simplest rune (but if so why are they apprentices?) then I expect its the mines or the Slayer Oath

I'd also expect Runesmiths to be bloody good Blacksmiths as well so theres an entire other aspect to the skills they have

[Reptile]

I find it very possible, that they can exist. Perhaps as a survivor of a lost hold, or indeed a dissapointed apprentice that is withheld from learning more runes or something.

Disappointed apprentice seems a better fit to me. I can't imagine a runesmith surviving the fall of a hold. Most would remain to die defending their life's work, even if others were fleeing.

[Louis]

[Orcs]

I'm planning to start an Orc army which will be my attempt on Gorbad Ironclaws Waaargh.
I have spend a lot of time researching the whole story about him, his tribe and the conquest from old armybooks (Orc and Empire) and other WFB literature. There is one, very practical, question I could not find the answer on however.

What was the Ironclaw tribes symbol/insignia/heraldry/code of arms?

The Broken Tooth tribe, that was consumed by the Ironclaws, have been described bearing a broken tooth (doh!), and actually show with two different tribe-symbols in the last two armybooks. But at least they where described.

The Gorbad model has a very large shield on his back, with a skull on it. Which in the GW paintjob is painted as a red skull on black background. Could this be the Ironclaw mark?

I hope someone can help. If there is no answer, I'm probably just going to use the red skull on black.

[Arnizipal]

For those who cant cast even the simplest rune (but if so why are they apprentices?) then I expect its the mines or the Slayer Oath
I think the Slayer Oath isn't taken that lightly. Failing at one job doesn't mean you're not fit to do another.


[Orcs]

I'm planning to start an Orc army which will be my attempt on Gorbad Ironclaws Waaargh.
I have spend a lot of time researching the whole story about him, his tribe and the conquest from old armybooks (Orc and Empire) and other WFB literature. There is one, very practical, question I could not find the answer on however.

What was the Ironclaw tribes symbol/insignia/heraldry/code of arms?

The Broken Tooth tribe, that was consumed by the Ironclaws, have been described bearing a broken tooth (doh!), and actually show with two different tribe-symbols in the last two armybooks. But at least they where described.

The Gorbad model has a very large shield on his back, with a skull on it. Which in the GW paintjob is painted as a red skull on black background. Could this be the Ironclaw mark?

I hope someone can help. If there is no answer, I'm probably just going to use the red skull on black.
I don't recall it ever being described, but his model does have rather intricate gauntlets. I think a stylized gauntleted fist (an Orc's claw if you will) would make a good design for banners, though not an easy one to paint.

[Urgat]

Isn't it shown in the 4th ed AB? I seem to remember a big gauntlet with a clawed finger, but I might think of something else.

[Louis]

Isn't it shown in the 4th ed AB? I seem to remember a big gauntlet with a clawed finger, but I might think of something else.

I can't find such a picture in that book. It's a good idea though. It's also possible that he doesn't use insignia as such, and his banners are consisting of skulls and trophies or unit-specific symbols.

[Jack of Blades]

This is both out of interest and because it may be useful to know should I feel to write fluff in the future. On with it:

1) How exactly do you become an undivided daemon princes? do you have to gain the favour of all 4 gods instead of just one, do you simply hope that Chaos itself will elevate you and if so by what judgement/standard/reason, or what?

2) Can undivided daemon princes afford to be more independent and are their minds more independent/free willed/similar to their mortal selves as a result of being undivided instead of bound to a single god?

3) How is an undivided daemon prince destroyed forever? I'm guessing it can be absorbed by other daemons but is there something that (naturally if you require the favour of all 4 gods) can take back what it granted you if you don't obey it or whatever?

4) Furies. Are they the result of cultists that simply cannot or have not decided what one of undivided or the four gods to follow, or is that what undivided followers of Chaos become unless *something* decides to bless them?

Basically what's the difference between an undivided and a marked daemon prince both in nature and by what rules they play by in the Realm of Chaos and how do you become an undivided daemon prince.

[Arnizipal]

1) How exactly do you become an undivided daemon princes? do you have to gain the favour of all 4 gods instead of just one, do you simply hope that Chaos itself will elevate you and if so by what judgement/standard/reason, or what?
I don't think this is described anywhere, but logically speaking, since the person in question worships the four gods equally it would suffice for one of them to elevate him to daemonhood without him receiving that god's personal mark.



2) Can undivided daemon princes afford to be more independent and are their minds more independent/free willed/similar to their mortal selves as a result of being undivided instead of bound to a single god?
I would say yes. Since an Undivided daemon's essence is spread out (evenly) between the gods, they would have less direct control of him.



3) How is an undivided daemon prince destroyed forever? I'm guessing it can be absorbed by other daemons but is there something that (naturally if you require the favour of all 4 gods) can take back what it granted you if you don't obey it or whatever?
If one (or more) of the gods retract their favour, the daemon prince will be severely weakened, making him an easier prey for other daemon princes or greater daemons.



4) Furies. Are they the result of cultists that simply cannot or have not decided what one of undivided or the four gods to follow, or is that what undivided followers of Chaos become unless *something* decides to bless them?
Furies are just generic daemons. They can spring into existence in a "natural" way in the aethyr if some emotions pool together. If humans ascend they turn into daemon princes, lesser daemons aren't elevated mortals.

[HK-47]

Is there any mention of a Skaven afterlife?

[Arnizipal]

Truly succesful Skaven never die :evilgrin:

[Drakemaster]

....because they make it onto the Council of 13!

Although more recent background regarding Council seats changing hands rather messes with the original background on the members being effectively immortal. The current army book seems to have gone with the older background, in that the council hasn't changed since the appearance of the Pillar of Commandments.

[ivan55599]

I'm making nurglings. I have lots of small weapons. So
Did nurglings have weapons? In armybooks they used tooth 'n claws, but some older minis did have. What is council's answer?

[mrtn]

The old models have small weapons. Doesn't mean that they have a in-game rule though.

[Arnizipal]

Backgroundwise Nurglings could be armed with (tiny) daemonic weaponry or just sharp stuff they picked up from the ground. Doesn't mean these weapons will make them any more effective in combat though (Nurglings fight with more enthusiasm than skill anyway).

[Urgat]

I guess it's the same matter as with, say, snotlings or trolls. They can use weapons, but it doesn't really change much to their "martial" prowess.

[Dreadlordpaul]

What did Belakor exactly do to get imprisoned by the chaos gods

[Arnizipal]

He thought himself an equal to them after becoming a daemon prince and getting lots of worshippers. Obviously the big 4 didn't see it like that they punished him with eternal humiliation. In a way Be'Lakor was lucky there as they could have just as easily destroyed him forever.

[Dreadlordpaul]

Oh so thats what he did. I never quite understood him to be honest.

[Spiney Norman]

[Vampire Counts]

Are only humans susceptible to the blood kiss, or is it possible to create a dwarf or elf (or even a halfling, orc, goblin, ogre or skaven) Vampire?

Have their ever been any examples of non-human vampires in the warhammer background?

[Arnizipal]

Search function to the rescue:

- Non human Vampires (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162990)
- Noob question: can Dwarfs become Vampires (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222370)
- Undead High Elves (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203789)
- Vampirism in the Warhammer World (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53215)

[Haeslich]

I play 40k, and read ALOT of 40k fluff. I know absolutely nothing about WFB fluff. I would like to start learning. What should a search/google to do so? Is there a WFB fluff resource like the 40k Librarium? Sorry if these are tedious questions.

[Arnizipal]

This thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326656) might be of help :)
You can also try lexicanum. It has most background for Fantasy and 40K there.

[Sunshine and Night]

(Bretonia)

Has it ever been mention what Actually happens the male sorcerers who are taken away?

[mrtn]

I think it's been implied that they become the non-aging slaves/pages of the wood elves.

[Artinam]

Correct, in the Guardians of the Forest book it is heavily implied that this is what happens to them. Another answer they are brought to the realm of the lady where they serve her forever.

So it depends if you think the Lady is a Wood Elf or not.

[Sunshine and Night]

Is that theory about the Ladys Realm from the Second knight novel?(Its just i remeber readding that there!)

[Artinam]

No, its in the Bretonnian Armybook if I recall correctly.

[Righthandedtwin]

In Guardians of the Forest the main character, a Bretonnian Knight upon awaking in an Elven villa discovers that the Elves are served by Bretonnian children who are bewitched as they seem unaware of thier surroundings. It also notes that Athel Loren defies the passage of the sun and moon and as such anyone living within AL is effectively Immortal as time does not pass in AL as it does elsewhere (Somewhat similar to the Chaos Wastes in this regard.) Those inside the forest as demonstrated later by said Knight exist in all times and eras simultaneously.

[Craze_b0i]

Hi, just as a suggestion you might want to update Q9 on the FAQ http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?106051-Background-FAQ A more appropriate question today might be "Did the SOC actually happen?" For which there seems to be a new thread every 4 weeks.

[RobC]

Hi, just as a suggestion you might want to update Q9 on the FAQ http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?106051-Background-FAQ A more appropriate question today might be "Did the SOC actually happen?" For which there seems to be a new thread every 4 weeks.Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to sort this out in the next couple of weeks.

[Tayrod]

This might be a hard one but I'll give it a go anyway:

Population:
What is the estimated population of
High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Ogres, Dwarfs, Empire, Brettonia, and Human Chaos worshippers? Does anyone have a clue?

[Chiron]

Human Chaos - As plot demands (especially as time does weird things in the Wastes)

Humanity is a bit... iffy, cities of about 50'000 were large pre-renaissance but I think the Empire operates on a more post Black Death scale due to the constant drain on manpower that all those beasties cause. From the wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography) on Medieval Demography about 70-100 million in Europe, so probably about right for the Empire and Bretonia combined at this point. I'd say somewhere around the same again in Tilea and Estalia and then things get really bloody complicated.

Warhammer scale is very very whacky overall tbh, published figures in the RPG's have Middenheim at about 15'000 which seems low and Nuln at 85'000 and Altdorf at 105'000 which is much better. I dread to think how many Elves or Dwarves GW would say there were but I'd be surprised if they ever said over a million each (which again seems way to low) Dwarves: Stone and Steel lists Karaz-a-Karak at 90'000 but only 1 hold even half the size of that (Karak Azul - 40'000) and again only 1 hold at 20'000, everywhere else is about 100-1000 in size.

[Craze_b0i]

We can say for argument that Brettonia is France in the High Middle Ages. From that same wiki article France is "believed to have supported 18 to 20 million people" in that period. However we should bear in mind the warhammer world is x2 bigger than earth. Indeed measuring the width of Brettonia on a map (vs medieval France) you see the difference in scale. On the other hand I would say Brettonia is a far more lawless place than France: beside the usual quarrelling barons and thieving bandits you have chaos cults in the cities, orcs raiding from the mountains, beastmen raiding from the forest. All that disrupts productivity. So even here its hard to pull an exact number.

[Artinam]

And lets just ignore in the inhuman taxation of 90% or at best the maximum limit of a tax where any noble with a brain will tax their peasants a lot less.

[Catflap]

High Elves

I was wondering if there's anything in the fluff about the colour scheme of the high elves living in the Citadel of Dusk?

[Sunner]

Goblins

Is there a fluff reason why night goblins wear full robes and regular goblins wear regular armour or is it just a stylistic difference to show different types of goblins? Also where do they get the robes from?

[Craze_b0i]

Goblins part 2

And why are said robes always black? Also how do Night goblins get from one lair to another, do they have a tunnel network like dwarfs and skaven or do they have to cross the surface world?


Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to sort this out in the next couple of weeks.

If you are still stuck on this might I suggest: "SOC is not included in the timeline of the currrent BRB, nor the timeline of OnG, there is a strong possible reference in VC however the new Empire timeline states quite clearly that said invasion has not yet happened. So either the chaos invasion mentioned in the new VC fluff has been over-written or, somewhat less likely, the last 2 years of the VC timeline (princess and all) is now considered to be 'in the future'."

Edit: sorry for the double post.

[Chiron]

Goblins part 2

And why are said robes always black? Also how do Night goblins get from one lair to another, do they have a tunnel network like dwarfs and skaven or do they have to cross the surface world?

Goblins use the Dwarf highway, its pretty much there territory these days and Dwarves only go down in armed groups and in dire straits. Bits of the Underway are still under Dwarf control but the majority of it is home to the Orcs and Goblins.

They also travel at night if they are anything like Tolkiens Goblins.

As for why the robes are black, blacks as good as any, plus its generally what people paint evil creatures in.

[Craze_b0i]

re: robes. What I meant was why always just that 1 colour? Other OnG are 'evil creatures' too but don't seem wedded to black as a universal colour... Ditto for skaven, beastmen etc.

[Dargon]

re: robes. What I meant was why always just that 1 colour? Other OnG are 'evil creatures' too but don't seem wedded to black as a universal colour... Ditto for skaven, beastmen etc.
I don't recall ever reading anything that specifically marries Night Goblins to black robes (Dark, yes. Black, no.). I suspect it's more a miniatures thing than a background one - the first Night Goblins were painted with black robes in the studio army... and who wants to repaint every single Night Goblin in their army? The studio army has always been woefully short on Night Goblins, which only strengthens my suspicion that the Eavy Metal team really can't stand the thought of devoting too much time to painting endless hoards of Night Goblins.:D

As for the robes themselves... Night Goblins have become so accustomed to living in dark caves that they have become a distinct sub-species. The robes shade and protect them from the bright sunlight when the Night Goblins are out in the open. Thre dark colouring probably has to do with endless dirt and grime - it's not like they wash, and each set of robes has probably had many, many, many owners before... each of which probably met a bloody end. Where the robes come from is pretty much left to the imagination, and probably boils down to "wherever they can get them". Nightly raids on the surface world. Silk spun from repulsive underground worms or spiders. Stolen from slain Skaven (or perhaps even made from the skins of Skaven or Squigs).

Night Goblins get from place to place the same way Skaven do. Between the natural cave systems, the innumerable lost or abandoned Dwarf mines and tunnels, the lairs dug out by monsterous underground creatures, and the great fractures ripped beneath the world by the Skaven, there is probably endless potential for getting from place to place underground (for anyone suicidal enough to brave the dangers). Night Goblins will happily venture across the surface in the dark of night, and begrudgingly during the light of day under the cover of their heavy robes (no doubt this happens often during a Waaagh).

[Craze_b0i]

Think I just answered my own question lol.

p.11. of the Ong book is a snippet I had forgotten. It says they wear black to blend with their dark surroundings, so that is the answer. :)

[ivan55599]

Is there other sources about Hung, Kurgan and Tong than Liber Chaotica and WFRP2: Tome of corruption?

[club_death]

[Vampire Counts]

What the fudge happened to Zacharias? He was a beast 2 editions back, I looked again lately and *poof. He's gone.

[Arnizipal]

Nothing as far as we know.
The last two books just don't seem to care about the non-Carstein families...

[SonOfOdin]

What information is there about Norsca?

I'm considering starting a Norsca army (using WoC rules), and any help would be appreciated!

[Lord Logsdon]

Oh mighty and noble Longbeards, hear my call!

[Bretonnia/Kislev]

I saw on the map for Erengrad and noticed it had a Bretonnian Quarter in the Low City section. What's up with that? What are my noble knights doing so far north and up the coast at the doorway to Kislev. This highly interested me as I'm starting a Bretonnian army and might factor some of this into its fluff.

[Arnizipal]

What information is there about Norsca?
I'm considering starting a Norsca army (using WoC rules), and any help would be appreciated!
Your best bet on info would be the Chaos supplement for Warhammer Roleplay second edition.
It's not that easy to fin anymore though...

Is there anything specific you want to know?


Oh mighty and noble Longbeards, hear my call!

[Bretonnia/Kislev]

I saw on the map for Erengrad and noticed it had a Bretonnian Quarter in the Low City section. What's up with that? What are my noble knights doing so far north and up the coast at the doorway to Kislev. This highly interested me as I'm starting a Bretonnian army and might factor some of this into its fluff.
I'll have a look in the Kislev supplement for Warhammer Roleplay when I get home.

[Lord Logsdon]

Oh mighty and noble Longbeards, hear my call!

[Bretonnia/Kislev]

I saw on the map for Erengrad and noticed it had a Bretonnian Quarter in the Low City section. What's up with that? What are my noble knights doing so far north and up the coast at the doorway to Kislev. This highly interested me as I'm starting a Bretonnian army and might factor some of this into its fluff.

Any word on this?

[Arnizipal]

The Bretonnian Quarter is one of the most flood-prone and undesirable areas of the city.
Many of the merchants there hail from L'Anguile and joke that it reminds them of home for two reasons: first, Bretonnian authorities give absolutely no support to merchants abroad, making it hard to negociate for better land in the city. Second, most of the Bretonnian merchants in Erengrad aren't making much money. For some reason nobody in the area seems to make it big.
Ferragus of L'Anguile is the only ex-pat merchant who is moderately wealthy.

[Lord Logsdon]

The Bretonnian Quarter is one of the most flood-prone and undesirable areas of the city.
Many of the merchants there hail from L'Anguile and joke that it reminds them of home for two reasons: first, Bretonnian authorities give absolutely no support to merchants abroad, making it hard to negociate fort better land in the city. Second, most of the Bretonnian merchants in Erengrad aren't making much money. For some reason nobody in the area seems to make it big.
Ferragus of L'Anguile is the only ex-pat merchant who is moderately wealthy.

Thank you Arnizipal! Though sad to hear the sad lot would want to live poorly in Erengrad when they could live poorly back home.

[Demiurg]

Hey, Are there Gnolls in Warhammer?

if I planned a gnoll army who could I use as the counts as, my choices are Beastmen or Orcs.

[mrtn]

There are no gnolls as such, the closest would probably be some kind of hyena-beastmen in the Southlands. Assuming you want to be as accurate as possible I'd run them as beastmen.

[Lt Dougheim]

( Drakwald )

Have they ever listed the state colors for Drakwald? Also wasn't Carroburg once the capital of Drakwald? Finally does the city of Carroburg have its own colors like Altdorf or Nuln?
Thanks

[CommanderCax]

( Drakwald )

Have they ever listed the state colors for Drakwald? Also wasn't Carroburg once the capital of Drakwald? Finally does the city of Carroburg have its own colors like Altdorf or Nuln?
Thanks

Normally the state uniforms of Carroburg were always white with the notable exception of the Carroburg Bihandkämpfder, who wear red uniforms as a matter of respect and remembrance to their stubbornly fight against a besieging army of Middenland a couple of centuries ago (their white uniforms were drenched in the blood of their enemies as well as their own because of the vicious battle).

I am not sure whether the state colors of Drakwald were white either, as I assume these were in fact the colour of the Reikland troops that guarded Carroburg against the attackers from Middenland. Carroburg indeed was the capital of Drakwald since 897 IC, when the amy of the Drakwalder Count was overwhelmed by the Wood Elves of Laurelorn, who he claimed ownership of. It was later also the seat of the Drakwald emperors (e.g. Boris Hohenbach (aka "Goldgather" and "the Incompetent") in the 11th and early 12th century.

Since Drakwald's eventual disappearance, Carroburg (as well as other parts of former Drakwald) became part of Middenland it seems and even became its capital until Middenland lost its independence to Middenheim (Graf Todbringer of Middenheim is Prince of Carroburg nowadays). I somehow remember it was also part of Reikland for a while (maybe only due to background consitency mistake by GW) as well as a city-state.

[Voodoo1]

(Middenheim/Middenland

Ulric the god of battles, wolves and winter. Nothing states that the warhammer is the weapon of choice, yet the Knights of the White Wolves and Teutogen guard use it. Is it specifically said anywhere why they use this type of weapon. Besides Kislev, do Middenheimers use the axe?

I want to use the axe for my state troops instead of swordsmen. I also thought of a two handed axe for my greatswords. I can't find any or enough two handed warhammers to make my own Teutogen guard with. Any suggestions?

[mrtn]

Use axes if you want to, I doubt it's as regimented as you think. If your troopers can't even afford shoes, would you really care if they turned up with an axe instead of a sword? :)

[TheProcrastinator]

What is the official stand on Dragons in Warhammer Fantasy? Are they intelligent, sentient race with their own culture, or are they just noble, graceful animals, muzzeled by the elves?

Could anyone point me to the best sourcebooks and BL novels, with fluff fleshing out the Dragons?

[Arnizipal]

I don't know if they had a culture as such, but they are certainly intelligent creatures. The old War of the Beard armylist even had them using fire magic and in some High Elf novels (like Aenarion) dragons can speak.

[Istlod]

Are the Kveligs and Hastlings Norse tribes or Kurgan tribes?

[Francis]

What is the official stand on Dragons in Warhammer Fantasy? Are they intelligent, sentient race with their own culture, or are they just noble, graceful animals, muzzeled by the elves?

Could anyone point me to the best sourcebooks and BL novels, with fluff fleshing out the Dragons?

In Caledor written by Gav Thorpe, the dragons are very intelligent individuals with memories and experience that predates the coming of the Old Ones. Caledor the First often asks his dragon for advice and it is shown that although Caledor the Dragon Tamer could control dragons with pure mind power that is no longer a skill that the elves posses (only the Dragon Tamer were ever able to do it). In many ways Dragons are far more intelligent than the elves themselves and their minds are on a whole other level existence compared to humans. Their main flaw is that they are prone to allowing their base instinct take over when in a fight, and when fighting they are supremely arrogant and confident in their own power and superiority. This is shown for example in the way Caledors's dragon reacts when he first encounters the black dragons Malekith has created.

[mrtn]

Are the Kveligs and Hastlings Norse tribes or Kurgan tribes?

Looking at the map they could be either or. Looking at the names I'd guess Norscan, but with more signs of chaos than the tribes further south.

[Light of the Emperor]

[EMPIRE]

What do we know about Nordland? Yes its on the coast and they have a crazy Elector Count who is constantly trying to take other's lands...but what type of fluff is really out there for it?
Praise Sigmar.

[Arnizipal]

[EMPIRE]

What do we know about Nordland? Yes its on the coast and they have a crazy Elector Count who is constantly trying to take other's lands...but what type of fluff is really out there for it?
Praise Sigmar.
Some threads for you:

But what of Nordland Sir? (www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?316071-But-what-of-Nordland-sir)
Nordland: The underused province (www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?313334-Nordland-The-underused-province)
Looking for some info on Nordland (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?245369-Looking-for-some-info-about-Nordland&highlight=nordland)

Hope that helps :)

[Istlod]

Is Harry the Hammer Norse, Kurgan, Hung or Southman?

[woodster17]

Norse, that article in WD340 explains that his legends are mainly told among the Norse and Kurgan but his name is Harald Hammerstorm; that's quintessentially Norse for me.

[Istlod]

So is Hrafn Untam canon? I read somewhere that he was this awesome Khornate Chaos Lord from Norsca who united the Aeslings, Graelings, Baeronslings and Vargs and destroyed his enemies among the southern tribes and became the High King of Norsca and then led the Norse in attacking the Dwarfs and Kurgan and the South in general.

[daplow]

In the Vaults, the mountain chain which divides the Border Princes from Bretonnia.

from lexicanum: A few passes cross the Vaults; they are used by mercenaries and merchants, who pay a suitable toll to the fierce mountain clans, who ambush, raid and harry those who refuse to pay. Adventurous tribesmen sometimes sell their services as mercenaries to The Empire.

What do you make of these mountain clans? They would have to compete with greenskins over territory and since orcs don't "compete" over territory... they are either in your neck of the woods trying to kill you and break your stuff or not there at all :p this has probably made them fierce warriors, indeed. The hill tribes from Game of Thrones is pretty much the image I get. Are these tribesmen mentioned anywhere else in lore? Why does lexicanum think vicious barbarians live in the Vaults? Thanks!

[CommanderCax]

In the Vaults, the mountain chain which divides the Border Princes from Bretonnia.

from lexicanum: A few passes cross the Vaults; they are used by mercenaries and merchants, who pay a suitable toll to the fierce mountain clans, who ambush, raid and harry those who refuse to pay. Adventurous tribesmen sometimes sell their services as mercenaries to The Empire.

What do you make of these mountain clans? They would have to compete with greenskins over territory and since orcs don't "compete" over territory... they are either in your neck of the woods trying to kill you and break your stuff or not there at all :p this has probably made them fierce warriors, indeed. The hill tribes from Game of Thrones is pretty much the image I get. Are these tribesmen mentioned anywhere else in lore? Why does lexicanum think vicious barbarians live in the Vaults? Thanks!

Lexicanum mentions as its source the 7th and 5th edition WFB books. Fierce mountain clans sounds like Austrians or the Swiss to me... :angel:

I have the impression that the C. L Werner novel Blood and Steel partly takes place there. Maybe it mentions these tribes in more detail.

The Doomstones campaign for WFRP 1st ed. takes place in the Vaults as well and features clans of Ogres, Mutants, Beastmen as well as Greenskins (mainly Goblins), Dwarfs and even Wood Elves. In regard to humans I only remember some small isolated villages as well as a monastery besides the remains of some sort of druidic groves.

[ivan55599]

Who is Valmir Aesling, Emperor of Chaos? Is Valmil better known as Valnir the Reaper? http://whfb.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Valmir_Aesling&redirect=no

[Istlod]

Who is Valmir Aesling, Emperor of Chaos? Is Valmil better known as Valnir the Reaper? http://whfb.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Valmir_Aesling&redirect=no

That's just Lexicanum *********** up as always.

Valmir Aesling was one of Asavar Kul's Norse generals and one of the most powerful Chaos Lords to walk the Old World. He fought the Norse Dwarfs of Kraka Drak and succeeded in destroying that hold, though he died in the battle. For more information, see the 7th edition WoC armybook, where his story is laid out.

Valnir the Reaper is another notable Norse Champion, but he's one of Nurgle's. They're both different people. You can find some information on him from Liber Chaotica: Nurgle.

A point of further difference between the characters is that Valmir is a member of the Aesling tribe and is from the northernmost reaches of Norsca. Valnir the Reaper is described in Liber Chaotica: Nurgle as hailing from a south Norscan tribe, likely the Sarls.

[Musiq]

Any1 sitting on more info on Arbaal the undefeated? Especially his encounter with Khorne.


Much appreciated!

[Vatlaaw]

In the Gotrek and Felix book "Beastslayer", the city of Praag in Kislev was under seige by a massive chaos horde led by a champion called Arek Demonclaw, and the end of the book even refers to the seige as the 'Second Great War Against Chaos." The book states that the events around the time of Magnus were about 100 years before. I've been searching up on this and cant seem to find any mention of this Second Great War in any other Warhammer lore. Did these events really happen in the Warhammer timeline or was it simply overlooked by the author?

[Arnizipal]

I believe the Second Siege of Praag was set in 2502 (I think that's the print date at the start of the novel), which would make it 200 years after the Great War against Chaos.

[Dargon]

I've been searching up on this and cant seem to find any mention of this Second Great War in any other Warhammer lore. Did these events really happen in the Warhammer timeline or was it simply overlooked by the author?
The second Great War against Chaos did indeed happen in the Warhammer timeline (Imperial year 2302-2304), and was a significant point in the history of the Empire. It was at this battle that Teclis and two more of his Archmage companions aided the Empire with their magic - resulting in the founding of the Colleges of Magic and the introduction of formally trained and sanctioned Imperial Wizards (beforehand, they were still hunting down anyone with magical aptitude). The current Empire Armybook has a bit of detail on the war on pages 10-12. Storm of Magic also mentions this event in its timeline.

I suspect the confusion comes from GW replacing Arek Demonclaw with Asavar Kul as the leader of the Chaos forces, and that the war isn't usually referred to as the 2nd great war, but simply "The Great War against Chaos", as Warhammer is essentially told from the viewpoint of the Empire, which wasn't around for the first Great War against Chaos (fought by the Slann, Lizardmen, High Elves and Dwarfs against the Daemons in the dawn of Warhammer history).

EDIT - I may have my events confused, if Arnizipal is correct and the novel is referring to a separate siege of Praag 200 years later, which isn't usually referred to as a 2nd Great War against Chaos.

[Arnizipal]

EDIT - I may have my events confused, if Arnizipal is correct and the novel is referring to a separate siege of Praag 200 years later, which isn't usually referred to as a 2nd Great War against Chaos.I'm pretty sure that The Great War agains Chaos was not the second incursion.
For one thing, Sigmar stopped an Everchosen's incursion in his time.

Also while Gotrek may have been around in 2302, Felix definitely wasn't born in those days.

[RobC]

Also while Gotrek may have been around in 2302, Felix definitely wasn't born in those days.I think Gotrek was born in the late 24th century.

[Dargon]

I don't have the specific issue to confirm, but I have notes that Gotrek was born in IC:2370, and that a number of Gotrek & Felix adventures occur in IC:2496, referring to Issue 140 of White Dwarf as the source.

So disregard my previous post entirely, as these Gotrek & Felix events clearly have nothing to do with the more famous Great War against Chaos, nor it seems do they show up in any game related publications (that I can find).

[TheXand]

[ELVES]

Do the Phoenix Kings absolutely need prayers of protection from the priests of Asuryan to enter the Flame of Asuryan unscathed? I know Malekith tried, but was toasted but then he was kind of not a goodie. I think Aenarion didn't either though and successfully became Phoenix King. Would Imrik/Caledor have been fried if he hadn't had prayer spells cast on him?

[woodster17]

I think this was mentioned in a large debate a year or so ago on the legitimacy of Malekith to the position of Phoenix King. The majority seemed to believe that Aenarion was the exception to the rule and that yes, if a prospective Phoenix King attempted to enter the flames of Asuryan without the protection of the priests of Asuryan he would end up looking very much like Malekith i.e crispy.

Also, with regard to Aenarion, I'm pretty sure he was immolated to some extent and reborn in the guise of Phoenix King (resembling the old legend of a phoenix being reborn from the ashes). He certainly didn't just walk in and walk out unscathed and entirely unchanged apart from having the blessing of Asuryan. His skin was meant to have blackened and crisped up before being healed (presumably by Asuryan's will). Malekith presumed the same thing would happen to him as Aenarion's heir and we know how that turned out. Since then, every Phoenix King has thoughtthat they require the blessing of the priests magic to survive the flames. In truth, who knows? Until a successor King tries without the blessing it could be argued that it might go either way. Malekith is considered the anti-thesis of his father but Aenarion was by no means the perfect Elf- he was flawed in his own way. My guess would be that Asuryan knew without his blessing Ulthuan was doomed and whether the God would feel the need to grant the same blessing to future Kings is doubtful IMO- not unless the End Time are once again upon the Warhammer World.

[Arnizipal]

I think this was mentioned in a large debate a year or so ago on the legitimacy of Malekith to the position of Phoenix King. The majority seemed to believe that Aenarion was the exception to the rule and that yes, if a prospective Phoenix King attempted to enter the flames of Asuryan without the protection of the priests of Asuryan he would end up looking very much like Malekith i.e crispy.

Also, with regard to Aenarion, I'm pretty sure he was immolated to some extent and reborn in the guise of Phoenix King (resembling the old legend of a phoenix being reborn from the ashes).
It's important to note that Aenarion didn't expect to live through the ordeal.
He literally sacrificed himself to Asuryan in order to beg the god's help.
It just happens Asuryan chose to answer by restoring Aenarion to life and making him his avatar.


Malekith presumed the same thing would happen to him as Aenarion's heir and we know how that turned out.
I don't think Malekith fully grasped what had happened when his father walked into the flames.
I think he expected not to get burned at all (while burning to death and being restored is supposedly the point of the test).



Since then, every Phoenix King has thoughtthat they require the blessing of the priests magic to survive the flames. In truth, who knows? Until a successor King tries without the blessing it could be argued that it might go either way.
One Phoenix King committed suicide by jumping in the flame (although it is also said he was burned because you can't pass through the fire twice).



Malekith is considered the anti-thesis of his father but Aenarion was by no means the perfect Elf- he was flawed in his own way.
In fact Malektih was very much like his father, which is one of the reasons he didn't get elected.
The Princes wanted a politician, not a warrior king.

[woodster17]

The first and last points you make are very related and highlight why Malekith was not like his father. Aenarion was more than willing to sacrifice his own life for the good of his people while Malekith felt that he deserved to be anointed as Phoenix King through his birth right. Since Aenarion survived with the blessing of Asuryan he went on to sacrifice himself by drawing the Sword of Khaine in order to aid Caledor Dragontamer while his cadre created the vortex. I see none of that selflessness in the Malekith that betrayed Bel Shanaar. Both were warriors yes, but I was pointing to the nature of their loyalties when referring to how different they are.

I agree with you on Malekith. He was probably deluded enough to believe that walking in to the flames would simply grant him the blessing of Asuryan so he could pronounce himself unanimously Phoenix King. I don't think he quite grasped the complexities of what the flames stand for.

Yes, that was Morvael. I think he was driven to it out of sorrow for what he thought was the loss of a battle and many Elven lies when in fact the High Elves had won? The images were implanted in his head by some Druchii sorceress or another, not sure if it was Morathi's doing.

[TheXand]

Are there any sources for Aenarion being disfigured? Like, are there any books about him or anything that cover it in more depth? I always imagined he came away entirely unscathed.

Another question regarding him; did Aenarion and Caledor Dragontamer remember the Old Ones personally?

[Arnizipal]

Are there any sources for Aenarion being disfigured? Like, are there any books about him or anything that cover it in more depth? I always imagined he came away entirely unscathed.
Why would he be disfigured? He was restored to life just the way he was before.

[TheXand]

Why would he be disfigured? He was restored to life just the way he was before.

That's what I would have thought as well, I just misinterpreted Woodster17's comment when he said that Aenarion was immolated.

[ivan55599]

Is there yet final thruth that what is U'zuhl (Khorne greater daemon?)

[Istlod]

You mean the Skulltaker? He's a Bloodletter.

[woodster17]

That's what I would have thought as well, I just misinterpreted Woodster17's comment when he said that Aenarion was immolated.

No he was perfectly blemish free, Asuryan restored him to his splendid former self after initially being crisped.

[ivan55599]

You mean the Skulltaker? He's a Bloodletter.

Uh, that was too ambiguous wording. I meant Archaon's sword, Slayer of Kings. Trapped greater daemon. Was he undivided or allegianced to specific god?

[Istlod]

Uh, that was too ambiguous wording. I meant Archaon's sword, Slayer of Kings. Trapped greater daemon. Was he undivided or allegianced to specific god?

I'm not sure if it was ever stated. I don't think there's such a thing as an undivided greater daemon, though.

[RobC]

I'm not sure if it was ever stated. I don't think there's such a thing as an undivided greater daemon, though.You can have daemons that are independent, which would most likely be covered by the 'Chaos undivided' rules.

[TheXand]

I'm not sure if it was ever stated. I don't think there's such a thing as an undivided greater daemon, though.

What about Hashut? I heard that he was a greater daemon of Khorne that was exiled for challenging Khorne and losing, but he now no longer has any allegiance. Or is he a lesser Chaos god, like Asuryan and Khaine.

[mrtn]

I think the "Hashut was khornate" is some old fan fic that's gone viral. Ignore it and it may be forgotten...

[RobC]

Yep. It's fanfic. At no point in the official background has Hashut been linked to Khorne.

Also: Asuryan and Khaine are not Chaos gods. All gods are of Chaos (i.e. the warp/realm of Chaos), but not all gods are Chaos gods.

[woodster17]

Was going to say that myself Rob- Asuryan and Khaine have nothing to do with the Chaos Gods. Don't blight the good name of Asuryan people!

[TheDungen]

An intresting point is that maybe malekith could've been reborn of the flames had he not thrown himself out of the fire halfway. Then again the phoenix kings using protection do come out changed but they don't seem to have been destroyed and reborn.

[Arnizipal]

An intresting point is that maybe malekith could've been reborn of the flames had he not thrown himself out of the fire halfway. Then again the phoenix kings using protection do come out changed but they don't seem to have been destroyed and reborn.
I don't think they come out changed at all...

[TheXand]

An intresting point is that maybe malekith could've been reborn of the flames had he not thrown himself out of the fire halfway. Then again the phoenix kings using protection do come out changed but they don't seem to have been destroyed and reborn.


I don't think they come out changed at all...
In the Sundering books Caledor walks into the flames and is destroyed and then put back together again. He's also described as having a different aura by dragons.

Was going to say that myself Rob- Asuryan and Khaine have nothing to do with the Chaos Gods. Don't blight the good name of Asuryan people!


Yep. It's fanfic. At no point in the official background has Hashut been linked to Khorne.

Also: Asuryan and Khaine are not Chaos gods. All gods are of Chaos (i.e. the warp/realm of Chaos), but not all gods are Chaos gods.

Pedantics! You guys know what I meant :P

[Musiq]

I'll try again!

Any1 sitting on more info on Arbaal the undefeated? Especially his encounter with Khorne.


Much appreciated!

[Istlod]

I'd say he probably lost.

[Arnizipal]

Arbaal the Undefeated disappeared after the Siege of Praag IIRC.
That's just about all I know about him.

[Istlod]

There's apparently another piece of information in the new codex that says he finally got tired of winning all the time and went to the Realm of Chaos to fight the only being he was convinced that could challenge him, Khorne Himself.

[Arnizipal]

So a devout worshipper of Khorne thinks he's so awesome he can go off to punch his patron god in the face? :wtf:

[Jack of Blades]

Sounds insane... until you recall that's probably what champions like Arbaal are :)

[Arnizipal]

Well yeah, but it kinda conflicts with his religion don't you think?
It would be like a successful crusader starting a crusade on Rome to show how powerful and devout he is :eyebrows:

[mrtn]

I'll try again!

Any1 sitting on more info on Arbaal the undefeated? Especially his encounter with Khorne.[/COLOR]

Much appreciated![/COLOR]

I thought you were crazy posting "I'll try again" and then not saying anything else. Took me hours to figure out you had actually been inconsiderate enough to post a question in white, a colour that's unreadable for anyone not using the standard skin. Please don't do it again.

[Jack of Blades]

I see your point, but I'd argue it depends on what kind of religious he is. I see for example a priest-like ''Word Bearer''-Arbaal never doing something like this, while an Arbaal who is simply a warrior of Chaos ''World Eater'' would. What better way to test his martial skill than against Khorne? that's what it's about - not blasphemy or going against his own faith, it's just Arbaal going on to prove himself to ultimately his patron, who wants him to test his martial skill against the most powerful foes constantly. So while I think your comparison is fair, I don't think it quite catches the difference that Khorne wants worthy champions and does not care what foes they fight or why, what matters to Khorne is that they prove their worthiness.

I've always thought this clarity of purpose is part of what attracts champions to Khorne and is one of the ''good'' things about Chaos that helps keep the setting from being a boring black and white, much like greenskin culture/biology actually making life good for a greenskin, just not for outsiders. All they live for is worthy battle, truly no matter what the source is or why, this is what Khorne demands. It would be if Arbaal somehow blasphemed against Khorne that I'd agree with you.

[RobC]

So a devout worshipper of Khorne thinks he's so awesome he can go off to punch his patron god in the face? :wtf:Definitely destined for spawndom/greatness, depending on how Khorne's feeling on the fateful day he eventually notices the upstart.

[Arnizipal]

I thought you were crazy posting "I'll try again" and then not saying anything else. Took me hours to figure out you had actually been inconsiderate enough to post a question in white, a colour that's unreadable for anyone not using the standard skin. Please don't do it again.
Black background and white text is the standard colour set for this forum :eyebrows:

[mrtn]

Black background and white text is the standard colour set for this forum :eyebrows:

No, black background and blue text is the standard.They must have changed the Warseer Blue very recently. If you don't want to use that (which I don't as the lack of contrast plays havoc with my eyes) you have to use the vB4 Default Style, which has black text on white. Regardless, there's a difference in using the default text, and deliberately adding a white [color] tag.

[Arnizipal]

No, black background and blue text is the standard.They must have changed the Warseer Blue very recently.
Uhm... No they haven't :eyebrows:
Black background and white text has been the default since the days of Portent...


If you don't want to use that (which I don't as the lack of contrast plays havoc with my eyes) you have to use the vB4 Default Style, which has black text on white. Regardless, there's a difference in using the default text, and deliberately adding a white [color] tag.
I think it has something to do with posting from mobiles or tablets.
Sometimes they add random font tags around the text.

[TheDungen]

Definitely destined for spawndom/greatness, depending on how Khorne's feeling on the fateful day he eventually notices the upstart.

Yeah I don't think arbaal think he can win against Khorne but I think he wants to lose. That way its over he either dies is turned into a spawn or a daemonprince at once, no more waiting.

[Musiq]

No, black background and blue text is the standard.They must have changed the Warseer Blue very recently. If you don't want to use that (which I don't as the lack of contrast plays havoc with my eyes) you have to use the vB4 Default Style, which has black text on white. Regardless, there's a difference in using the default text, and deliberately adding a white [color] tag.

Wasn't deliberately, was a copy paste gone wrong I guess. Thank you for bringing it to my attention with your overreaction! Hope this turns out in the right shade for you!

[Elly_Banearrow]

[Wood Elves an Brettonias]

In my wood elf book, there is reference in the time line that during the Wild Hunt came they slaughtered all of the Duke of Quenelle's family, but some Dryads took the youngest girl. What happaned to that little girl, does anyone know? The following is a quote from my WE book.

"1673
The Wild Hunt inexplicably rides only through lands controlled by Quenelles. The Duke and his family are all slain, save for his youngest daughter, who is spirited away into the forest by Dryads."

So where is the young Duchess of Quenelles?

[seb2304]

So a devout worshipper of Khorne thinks he's so awesome he can go off to punch his patron god in the face? :wtf:
skarbrand...:)

[Arnizipal]

[Wood Elves an Brettonias]

In my wood elf book, there is reference in the time line that during the Wild Hunt came they slaughtered all of the Duke of Quenelle's family, but some Dryads took the youngest girl. What happaned to that little girl, does anyone know? The following is a quote from my WE book.

"1673
The Wild Hunt inexplicably rides only through lands controlled by Quenelles. The Duke and his family are all slain, save for his youngest daughter, who is spirited away into the forest by Dryads."

So where is the young Duchess of Quenelles?
Wood Elves take young human girls with a gift for magic to train as Damsels.
Not exactly sure what forest spirits would want with them though...
Sacrifice maybe?

[Elly_Banearrow]

Wood Elves take young human girls with a gift for magic to train as Damsels.
Not exactly sure what forest spirits would want with them though...
Sacrifice maybe?

That is my question also. What would the Dryads want with a human? I don't think they would be giving her to Ariel for some reason, cus the Dryads aren't too fond of anyone not a forest spirit. Then again, Ariel is a demi-goddess to Isha.. So, maybe Ariel sensed something about this child (possibly as a vessel for a rebirth?) and told the Dryad to save her from the slaughter.

[woodster17]

Ariel is more of an avatar of Isha in the same way that Orion is an avatar of Kurnous. I doubt the Dryads would want anything good with a human, particularly if Drycha is involved. Not all are malevolent but most are capricious at best. It's a weird one but undoubtedly has something to do with magical ability. No question about that.

[Elly_Banearrow]

But what? Would they really just take her and kill her? could Ariel have sent them to retrieve her? I doubt she has any ties with the Sisters of Twilight (one elf wandering in the forest, 2 coming out on a forest dragon in the forest's time of need) but I am open to anything here. Maybe some fluff in 9th will mention her? Or even just bring her in to the next WE army book? I have many theories about this human: Fae enchantress (changed by the forest somehow), Lady of the Lake (again, changed by the forest), somehow related to Ariel (handmaid to the queen, future rebirth/body to Ariel, young spellsinger/weaver (changed by forest)), or maybe just something inside her the forest needs/ed. Maybe even Drycha using the young child has leverage to Ariel, if the queen herself wants a human child, Drycha could use her against Ariel.

[Arnizipal]

It's probably one of those open ended stories GW uses.
It allows you to create your own background and theories.
They do that far too little these days...

[Fear is the mind killer]

[Magic]

Why are there 8 winds of magic? Why do they each have a person's name (i.e. why are they called Shyish and Ghur etc.)?

[woodster17]

It's a reflection of magic as the essence of Chaos. Chaos is represented by the 8 pointed star, magic is represented by the 8 winds. When this Chaos Energy enters the material world it refracts in to these 8 colours, which are known as you say as the Winds of Magic.

Some occasionally pools and doesn't refract and when it solidifies it goes on to form warpstone. Most of those who can wield magic only have the ability to control one of the winds, hence the 8 colleges of magic in Imperial Altdorf. Hysh (Light Order), Chamon (Gold Order), Ghyran (Jade Order), Azyr (Celestial Order), Ulgu (Grey Order), Shyish (Amethyst Order), Ashy (Bright Order) and Ghur (Amber Order). High Elves and Slann can harness all of the winds and refine it in to Qhaysh (High Magic). As such, their spellcasters are infinitely more powerful. Then you have Dark Wizards of various types who use the Chaos Magic in it's raw form (Dhar). Necromancers use specialised forms of Dhar.

[Fear is the mind killer]

[Magic continued]

Thanks Woodster17. Is there any further information on why the chaos energy splits into these exact forms of magic? Is there any more info on where these names originate? You mention in your reply that Slann can use High Magic, but I thought from my lizardmen armies book that they could only access the 8 standard winds of magic. Does this mean that I can use the high magic deck? If so is there a source of official ruling to back this up?

[woodster17]

I should have been more specific, sorry. High Elves and Slann can master all of the Winds of Magic. But only High Elves use High Magic. I couldn't tell you the logic behind this since Slann's are generally the most powerful mages in the Warhammer World. Therefore, I would assume that it's possible for the Slann to master High Magic but they don't seem to bother with it.

As for why it splits up like that not sure. It might say in the WFRP book Realms of Sorcerery or in Liber Chaotica but I don't have the former and would take a while to read through the relevant part of the latter. It does seem like the winds represent all of the main elements in the world- Light, Metal, Life, Heavens, Shadow, Death, Beasts and Fire. Then they are other lores which presumably harness some of the aforementioned power. Lore of the Horned Rat, Gastromancy, Waaagh! Magic, Wild Magic, Dwarven Runic Magic and the kind of Divine Magic that blesses people like Warrior Priests.

[TheDungen]

Well some of those like necromancy is just variants of other lores, in this case death.
Lor of the horned rat and gastromancy are religious magic and are thus not chaos magic per in the basic sense of the word.
Rune magic and the lore of nehekhara probably doesn't discriminate which wind empowers it but is built in such a stable way that they avoid the drawback of dhar.
The we have wood elf magic and whaagh magic which isn't that kind of magic at all but is taken from thing sin the world, in the case of whaagh from orcs and in case of the wood elf magic from loren or the natrual world (although it may have come to this through magic groudned into the vortex of ulthuan)
at least that's my take on it.

[Tastyfish]

[Magic continued]

Thanks Woodster17. Is there any further information on why the chaos energy splits into these exact forms of magic? Is there any more info on where these names originate? You mention in your reply that Slann can use High Magic, but I thought from my lizardmen armies book that they could only access the 8 standard winds of magic. Does this mean that I can use the high magic deck? If so is there a source of official ruling to back this up?

They used to use High in the age when magic was a separate expansion, but I think it's more a case of not wanting two high magic spell lists in two different books.

[Arnizipal]

[Magic continued]

Thanks Woodster17. Is there any further information on why the chaos energy splits into these exact forms of magic?
The background in the 5th edition magic supplement suggested that the magic winds split when they enter the world because some parts of them are "attracted" (for lack of a better word) to certain substances or places.
Chamon, for example, is attracted to precious metals (gold in particular).
Azyr is a light and wispy wind which naturally flows to the skies.

Well some of those like necromancy is just variants of other lores, in this case death.
Lor of the horned rat and gastromancy are religious magic and are thus not chaos magic per in the basic sense of the word.
Rune magic and the lore of nehekhara probably doesn't discriminate which wind empowers it but is built in such a stable way that they avoid the drawback of dhar.
The we have wood elf magic and whaagh magic which isn't that kind of magic at all but is taken from thing sin the world, in the case of whaagh from orcs and in case of the wood elf magic from loren or the natrual world (although it may have come to this through magic groudned into the vortex of ulthuan)
at least that's my take on it.
Necromancy is Dark Magic, meaning all winds squashed into one by sheer willpower of the mage - very powerful but very dangerous. The Lore of Death can be used to approach Necromancy in a safer way, but it remains Dark Magic at its core.

Divine magic still stems from the Realm of Chaos, but it is filtered and refined through religious practices. In the case of priests of the Empire, this makes their miracles safer but less powerful. I guess in the case of Skaven and Ogre magic, some "regular" spell practices are mixed in to crank up the power level.

IIRC Liber Chaotica theorises that Dwarfen Rune Magic is a form of High Magic.

[Huge94]

Hi!

Has there ever been one or a group of Bretonnian Knights that have been cast away, forsaken by the King or maybe by the Lady?

Thanks!

[Arnizipal]

Whatever knights stayed at Mousillon during that whole False Grail thing would fit that description.

[Istlod]

The background in the 5th edition magic supplement suggested that the magic winds split when they enter the world because some parts of them are "attracted" (for lack of a better word) to certain substances or places.
Chamon, for example, is attracted to precious metals (gold in particular).
Azyr is a light and wispy wind which naturally flows to the skies.

Interesting. I hope its still canon.

[mrtn]

Hi!

Has there ever been one or a group of Bretonnian Knights that have been cast away, forsaken by the King or maybe by the Lady?

Thanks!I think some of the Border Princes was founded by Bretonnians that got stuck on the way to/from the crusades against Araby.

[CommanderCax]

Hi!

Has there ever been one or a group of Bretonnian Knights that have been cast away, forsaken by the King or maybe by the Lady?

Thanks!

Of course.

Maldred, the last Duke of Mousillon, fits the bill (in the Affair of the Flase Grail as Arnizipal has mentioned) as he was accused of high treason, banished and later killed.

Mallobaude, the Black Knight from Mousillon, fits as well. He drank from the Grail and did not die, nor did he became a grail knight. It is said he had glimpsed past the Lady's magic and seen the truth behind her.

The Red Duke from Aquitaine can also be considered forsaken by the King.

[Huge94]

Thnks very much for this! It seems that these tales are written in a book called ''Barony of the Damned''. Is this where all this comes from? I should put my hands a copy...

[woodster17]

Barony of the Damned is a warhammer fantasy roleplay book- 2nd edition published by Black Industries in 2006. It hasn't been in operation as a company since 2008 though and the only source of availability is second hand, primarily on eBay. It's very tough (and expensive) to get hold of.

[Huge94]

Barony of the Damned is a warhammer fantasy roleplay book- 2nd edition published by Black Industries in 2006. It hasn't been in operation as a company since 2008 though and the only source of availability is second hand, primarily on eBay. It's very tough (and expensive) to get hold of.

That's what I found out, although I was lucky enough to get my hands on one copy for less than $20 shipped!

[woodster17]

Good job! Enjoy, it's a decent one.

[CommanderCax]

Thnks very much for this! It seems that these tales are written in a book called ''Barony of the Damned''. Is this where all this comes from? I should put my hands a copy...

Mallobaude is from Barony of the Damned, Maldred's tale is also described there as well as in an Bretonnia Army List if I remember correctly. The Tale of the Red Duke is mentioned in the 5th ed. scenario pack Circle of Blood as well as in Night's Dark Masters (WFRP 2nd ed. supplement) if I remember correctly.

[woodster17]

As well as there being a whole BL novel about him entitled 'The Red Duke' ;)

[ivan55599]

(I bet that there isn't more information what I know, but I'll ask)
What else we know about The Southern Wastes than there live beastmen and daemons?
Is it icy place?
Wouldn't it be easy for beasts and daemons to travel across of Gates of Calith and spread chaos to southern world and getting whole world to pincer movement, in theory? (well, daemons dont have/dont need tehcnology to get over strait.)

edit: a propos, how northern beastmen can (ora can they?) posses technology to create own armour, weapons and simple infrastructure? What is the origin and situation "nowadays", own smiths etc or trading (trading for what?)

[mrtn]

Well, it depends on if you want to look at the latest armybook or look at the latest miniatures. :p IIRC the armybook say that they mainly scavenge their weapons and armour, but in that case they must have been very fortunate to find an enemy with lots of bestigor sized armour covered in evil goat signs. :rolleyes:

In other words, it doesn't add up.

[Jack of Blades]

They rely on ungors for crude toolmaking. I'd guess that any such rune-enhancements etc. are the doings of shamans invoking Chaos and that such armour as the bestigor wear that other races wouldn't use is crudely cobbled together from suits of scavenged armour and to a much less frequent degree traded for through Chaos dwarfs and humans. I imagine the bestigor not so much wearing suits of captured armour but instead breaking it apart and having the ungors nail together what they can, ie. their armour is improvised.

[Arnizipal]

What else we know about The Southern Wastes than there live beastmen and daemons?
Is it icy place?
It's the south pole of the planet, so yes.



Wouldn't it be easy for beasts and daemons to travel across of Gates of Calith and spread chaos to southern world and getting whole world to pincer movement, in theory? (well, daemons dont have/dont need tehcnology to get over strait.)
No, it isn't. Otherwise the history of Warhammer would have mentioned wars with Chaos to the south.
It's speculated that the beastmen in the south lack the materials to create boats (no wood in an arctic waste), and that the deamons that can fly don't exist long enough (due to lack of magic when they move away too far from the gates) to make it over the ocean.

[Erikjust]

According to this page http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/tutorials/article/112-dwarf-religion/
This is how the Strictures of the different dwarf gods sound if translated into English.

My question is have enough information been released about the native dwarf language to translate the Strictures back into how they would sound in the dwarf native tung?

Reason for my question is i am close to FINALLY (its been almost three years of non/stop painting and even more of cleaning the miniatures and starting over again, cure of the perfectionism) being done with the first build of a dwarf army.
One of the things i would like to do is take the book standard and on one page paint the symbol of the dwarf god that the dwarf would most likely pray to in order to succeed in battle and paint the Strictures of that god in runes on the other page.

Now i could just do a literal translation from the English version, but i doubt the dwarf would write the Strictures of their gods in the language of the humans, even though they are using their own rune alphabet to do so.

So again has enough material on the dwarf language been released to make an educated guess as to how the Strictures of the dwarf gods sound in the dwarfs native tung?

[m1acca1551]

According to this page http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/tutorials/article/112-dwarf-religion/
This is how the Strictures of the different dwarf gods sound if translated into English.

My question is have enough information been released about the native dwarf language to translate the Strictures back into how they would sound in the dwarf native tung?

Reason for my question is i am close to FINALLY (its been almost three years of non/stop painting and even more of cleaning the miniatures and starting over again, cure of the perfectionism) being done with the first build of a dwarf army.
One of the things i would like to do is take the book standard and on one page paint the symbol of the dwarf god that the dwarf would most likely pray to in order to succeed in battle and paint the Strictures of that god in runes on the other page.

Now i could just do a literal translation from the English version, but i doubt the dwarf would write the Strictures of their gods in the language of the humans, even though they are using their own rune alphabet to do so.

So again has enough material on the dwarf language been released to make an educated guess as to how the Strictures of the dwarf gods sound in the dwarfs native tung?

GW have actually played their cards really close to the chest in regards to the dwarfen language, in all dwarfen books they speak the new tongue which whilst similar to the old tongue is very different to those who are outsiders. Dwarfs are a very secretive race after all.

You may find something, but i'd say it'd be fan fluff more so than actual canon, but you never know.

[Arnizipal]

GW have actually played their cards really close to the chest in regards to the dwarfen language, in all dwarfen books they speak the new tongue which whilst similar to the old tongue is very different to those who are outsiders. Dwarfs are a very secretive race after all.
I din't even know Dwarfs had two languages...

Either way, Dwarfs: Stone and Steel had a large section on the Dwarf language.
It even gave some basic examples on how to make sentences.

[Erikjust]

Hmm since Dwarfs use Runes and Vikings used runes too, i could translate the Strictures using their language and probably get something close to what dwarf language might sound like.

[TheDungen]

i think its a Norwegian reference 'bokmål' and 'nynorsk', one is written one is spoken.

[Luigi]

Guys, i was wondering, in what year did the battle for Skull Pass took place?

[boli]

Hmm since Dwarfs use Runes and Vikings used runes too, i could translate the Strictures using their language and probably get something close to what dwarf language might sound like.

I actually know something about this; the Viking runes always had at least two meanings, a syllable or word and a meaning. You only knew the meaning if you read/understood the history / culture.

So [rune] could be translated as "th" "Thursday" or Thor.

I'll wager the dwarven second language is nothing more than reading the symbolic meaning in text

[ratlingwei]

[EMPIRE]

Would a province/dukedom/principality in the Border Princes contain Reiksguard Knights or any other knightly order?
Is the technological level of the Border Princes same as the Empire?

Is there any particular fluff about the Border Princes?

My knowledge is limited to that of shadow of the horned rat and dark omen.

Thanks

[Artinam]

All could be plausible, a Chapter of Knights claiming a piece of land in the border princes wouldn't be unheard off (happened in the real world with the teutonic chapter in Eastern Europe or Malta). They could be ordered by some Emperor to clear out an area of enemies.

Alternatively, the Border prince has close connections with the chapter (related to or being a member himself), the ruler could create his own knightly chapter for diverse reasons.

Reiksguard is a bit harder, but you could have reasons for them being there (ordered by the Emperor to assist in something, land granted to them ect.).

The technological level can be lower, higher or equal to the Empire. A border prince can hire any (renegade) Engineer and make his own college. Although a direct copy of a Steamtank might take it a bit far, you could convert some kind of steamwagon or mechanical monster thing.

There is an entire rpg book on the border princes called called renegade crown. Its very hard to get hold off for a reasonable price. Basicly its an area with a very diverse number of people who carved out their mini kingdoms. The borders change very often and the area is infested with orcs and various other things, for Bretonnia I know that a lot of Knights Errants on an Errantry War to Araby decided to stick in the area. So people there are descended from Bretonnians but also Empire nobles ect.

Basicly its an area where anything could happen and where you can do basicly anything you want.

[ratlingwei]

Aha, thank you sir. I'm building an empire army with custom colors so I thought a fan fictional principality would fit best, but I do have many reiksguard knights in altdorf colors and I love your idea of having retired knights being granted land in the border princes in the army. I also want to have outriders but was skeptical to the fluff and you just solved that problem too. Think I will go with the fluff and forego steamtank as it would seem a petty border prince principality could never afford that, but renegade engineer sounds awesome for justifying handgunners/pistols.

Damn Renegade crown looks great, very expensive price though as you said, even used it is $130. Will have to wait to next month to buy it, but thank you for the information. Now I love this area even more.

[Athelassan]

Damn Renegade crown looks great, very expensive price though as you said, even used it is $130. Will have to wait to next month to buy it, but thank you for the information. Now I love this area even more.
If it makes your decision any easier, Renegade Crowns contains a lot of ideas, but not a lot of information. It's essentially a toolbox for creating Border settings of your own devising that fit within the WHF world, rather than providing you with a setting to play in and associated background. It's not a bad book by any means, but unless you're going to play a game in it or are a completist, there are probably better things to spend your money on.

If you don't mind digital editions, they're still available at cover price from DriveThru RPG (Renegade Crowns is currently on sale and $15.00). Some of the books have been re-released in hard copy, but I don't think RC has.

[Craze_b0i]

Yes the book is basically just a toolkit as Athelassan said. It a) lets you design your own settings, b) has rules/scenarios for players seizing power and taking on the running of their own Border Princes kingdom.

The most recent BP map is in Tamurkhan, though it lacks detail and no background information is given save mention of the fact Tamurkhan laid waste to a large portion of it while he was passing though.

There are also older maps on Gizman's Gallery.

[ratlingwei]

Can Archeon be considered the "Emperor" of Chaos tribes?

It seems to me that all chaos warrior armies in Norsca are under his influence, not saying he controls everything as Karl Franz doesn't control all human factions. Just wondering if he is a political figure at all, or if he is more anti-sigmar(anti-christ) or a more physical representations of the four horsemen from Revelations that brings the end times?

[Kolsveinn]

Can Archeon be considered the "Emperor" of Chaos tribes?

It seems to me that all chaos warrior armies in Norsca are under his influence, not saying he controls everything as Karl Franz doesn't control all human factions. Just wondering if he is a political figure at all, or if he is more anti-sigmar(anti-christ) or a more physical representations of the four horsemen from Revelations that brings the end times?

To an extent, yes. No one in Norsca at the moment would challenge him because he's very clearly the Chosen warrior of the Gods. But it's debatable how far his political power over the Northmen would be. It should also be noted that Archaon's champions are all high-profile chieftains of the Norse.

Hilariously, two centuries ago there was actually a Chaos Lord who fancied himself as "the Emperor of Chaos" and supreme leader of the Northern tribes. His name was Valmir the Aesling. He also succeeded in annihilating Kraka Drak.

[MLP]

I know this is a bit of necromancy but it's better than starting a new thread.

Does anyone know what City is named the "bastion of the south"?

[mrtn]

I can't find it on my maps. My first guess would be one of the High Elf fortresses. Where did you find it mentioned?

[ivan55599]

I've always wondered how hellcannon attacks in close combat (as current and one model).

With jaws in that totally clumsy "body"? Think about that situation, where hellcannon gets loose and turns around with wheels like mad.

With sort of raw chaos energy of bound demon?

Ou, and that cannon is a monster. Wheels can make thunderstomp.

[MLP]

I can't find it on my maps. My first guess would be one of the High Elf fortresses. Where did you find it mentioned?

I guessed it was Nuln and I was right! It was for a quiz.

[Kallstrom]

Araby questions. Besides the desert dogs, are there any other mounted riders/knights that have a name/are famous? Is there an empire or bretonnia order that has converted to an araby-based faith/doctrine?
How do the arabyans view their women, their slaves, their horses and outsiders? Is there an official religion, and if so - what is it called?
are there any Araby-forums, or creative/cool painting logs that you guys can link me to?

Cheers!

[Artinam]

Bretonnian fluff mentions no such things outside of the Errantry War (Crusade) against the evil Jaffar to liberate Estalia (Spain). (Making it a Warhammer version of the Reconquista).
However Bretonnians then invade Araby together with the help of Estalia and Knightly orders from the Empire. They beat Jaffar and if I remember correctly some of them settle down there and build castles.

Another famous warrior from araby is Suliman le Saracen
http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&func=detail&id=2172&Itemid=103

He popped up in the 5th edition Bretonnian book as a special character together with Odo D'outremer, basicly he was a powerful warrior but was bested by a Odo, he led him live because of his skill and honour and both became good friends. He had a war shout rule that made his opponent strike last.

[Athelassan]

Araby hasn't received an enormous amount of attention. In Warmaster they have a complete list although the background is still pretty thin. Other than the Desert Dogs and Suleiman le Saracen I'm not aware of any famous cavalry from Araby. Going back as far as first edition there was Mad Mullah Ak'land and his Death Commandos (it's first edition, which would disqualify it for some on that basis alone, but there are other characters around from that period and I never like throwing away a bit of background if it can be put to some use). They were infantry, though.

Knightly orders known to be involved in the Crusades against Araby were the Knights Panther, the Knights of the Gold Lion and the Knights of the Blazing Sun. They were all on the Crusader side, though.

[Scurutari]

Can a civilized society worship the chaos without disintegrating into anarchy?

[Imperator64]

What can you tell me about the relationship between slaanesh and the elves. What I know is that slaanesh takes the souls of dead elves and that the witch king has damned the warlocks to slaanesh as some kind of sacrifice ( or something). Why is there this connection between the two?

[mrtn]

What I know is that slaanesh takes the souls of dead elvesIs that from one of the newer books? It used to be true in 40K but not fantasy AFAIK.

[Imperator64]

Is that from one of the newer books? It used to be true in 40K but not fantasy AFAIK.
The new high elf armies book I think.

[Arnizipal]

Can a civilized society worship the chaos without disintegrating into anarchy?
Some older background has it that Tzeentch is openly worshipped in Cathay.


Is that from one of the newer books? It used to be true in 40K but not fantasy AFAIK.


The new high elf armies book I think.
It's from the new Dark Elf book.
The reasoning behind it is flimsy at best.

[mrtn]

Just sounds like a try to make the fantasy background similar to the 40K background. Maybe they don't believe their customers are intelligent enough to differ between the two? :eyebrows:

[Novrain]

Right, some friends and I are planing a big game for this coming sunday.

Teams are VC and Empire vs. Brets, Lizards and WE.

Any possible fluff justification known for this arrangement?

[Artinam]

Its a Sylvanian army, where the undead parts and the normal living state troop work together (there was a list of it in the Vampire Counts armybook of 6th edition with human levee soldiers with Halberds and crossbows).

Alternatively, the Empire general is a thrall of a Vampire. If the Empire dude has any Warriorpriest of Sigmar this doesn't work.

The other Alliance is more possible, Wood Elfs and Bretonnian do ally sometimes when it suites them. For example some Chaos corrupted artifact is found within a forest by the Vampire/Empire. The Lizardmen sence this and send forces. The Forest contains a colony of Wood Elfs, they inform the clans in Athel Loren. Together with a local Bretonnian Lord who owes a favour to the Elves they set out to cleanse the forest of the corruption of the item.

[Novrain]

Sounds good, I had planned Sylvanian levies (that list from the Storm that never happened was pretty cool) but couldn't think up something convincing for the other side.

[m1acca1551]

Thralls or swains if you are running lahmian vampireress. Eg local lord has gathered his army to march to defence of his lady only to find she has her own...

Or empire army can be a mercenary force, or simple sylvanian levies.

[White_13oy]

Is there any fluff reason to have a wizard in a WoC Khorne Themed army? I haven't done it yet, but zero magic defense is really starting to hurt a lot, He wouldn't be a lord level, as I usually take my Lord on Manticore/Juggy/ or Valkia. Generally with Valkia I don't since she hates them.

[Arnizipal]

I think Khorne warbands have priests of some sort.
Somebody has to summon the daemons after all ;)

[White_13oy]

Yeah, but from what little I have found about Blood Priests, its different from what we have in the table top. What would be a good way of representing them would you think? Just trying to solidify background for my army.

[Arnizipal]

I think a low level wizard with the Lore of Beasts would fit just fine.
If you stick to support spells instead of direct damage I don't think this would be out of character.

[Craze_b0i]

I have a question about chaos...

In the current fluff chaos gods are created from mortal emotions. I am just curious if they have always been portrayed in this manner or whether this is only a recent depiction.

[dalezzz]

It's how it is in the realm of chaos books

[james_chevallier]

My friend and I are making Mount & Blade Warband: Great War Against Chaos module. So I really need information about the war. Is there any book about the war?