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Pain4life
14-01-2012, 15:02
Hi seers,

I am starting a 1,000pts crimson fist force and would like as much as possible to accurately replicate the insignia for the units in the force...

I read somewhere that in there history (just after the fall on or the palace at the end of the heresy) that the imperial fists started wearing red gloves as a sort of thanks to the crimsons for there help but im not sure, do the crimson fists also paint there glove(s) yellow?

any help would be great

Charistoph
14-01-2012, 18:28
Crimson Fists are a Second Founding Chapter of the Imperial Fists. Rogal Dorn divided his legion after many arguments with Guillemon and a protracted conflict with the Iron Warriors. The Legion was divided along certain beliefs and fighting styles of the individuals involved, such as the Black Templars being a Crusading force that never really stops rushing forward to engage the enemy.

I am unaware of all the details of the Crimson Fists, but I have not heard of any special honor or tradition of having their fists anything but their titular crimson.

Rogue
14-01-2012, 18:41
The short answer is no, I have never seen any documentation where Crimson Fists wore anything other than blue and red on their gauntlets. As stated before Crimson Fists are a second founding of Imperial Fists. Other than using the same shoulder insignia's there is really not that much difference. Crimson Fists are specifically Red and Blue as their primary colors.

Leftenant Gashrog
14-01-2012, 23:16
Sounds like a garbled misrememberance of two things to me: When the Legion split Dorn reaffirmed his brotherhood with the new Chapter Masters by means of a ritualised cutting & holding of hands from whence the Crimson Fists take their name. I'm not aware of the Imperial & Crimson Fists sharing iconography but the Crimson Fists did exchange iconography with the Black Templars during the Declates Crusade tho nothing permanent for either chapter (tho I imagine veterans of the conflict would retain such markings)

mdeceiver79
14-01-2012, 23:48
It can be difficult to deduct the "official" markings for space marines as lots of sources quote differently.
Generally if there is no studded pad present then the chapter marking is on the left. (if studded left then chapter marking is on right) http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111017191317/warhammer40k/images/thumb/3/36/CrimsonFistsIconography.jpg/380px-CrimsonFistsIconography.jpg

Then for the right generally it is the squad marking. Codex astartes indicates for troops it is an upwards facing arrow usually in white (thought crimson fists seems to have a red arrow in a black circle). There may also be a number present to indicate the squad (differentiating between 2 different troop choices). Some chapters less adherant to the codex use a horizontal double pointed arrow to indicate this (I believe this goes back to pre-heresy)

The codex astarates suggests the company is to be indicated on the right kneepad. However non of the artwork I've found for crimson fists adheres to this so it is up for debate or preference. Some chapters use numbers or a small motif to indicate the company.

Some chapters also use the kneepads for signs of recognition of fighting in a certain campaign or veterancy (skull). Most art from the CF doesn't have any markings on knee pads or indeed much at all. You might decide to go for a sombre and modest plain blue scheme or an overly decorated and rich scheme.

Veterancy in crimson fists is indicated by a laurel round the head like so http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:CrimsonFistsVeteranSergeantHelmet.jpg

You may also wish to distinguish models through head stripes as seen here
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/e/e0/RT-Crimson_Fists_Chapter_Last_Stand.jpg
(a commander with a stripe) Though this is pretty retro going back to rogue trader times.

it seems the crimson fists' fists are generally crimson. Some artwork suggests certain models may have 2 fists red (a sign of veterancy)?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Vtwp8OPCwqQ/TanKyIIs_KI/AAAAAAAABz0/nadpxcftzfY/s400/CrimsonFistLastStand.jpg

It seems models have a red or white aquilla on the chest though silver and gold would also be used (and blue I guess) For some characters and chaplains silver and gold seems more common.

The left or right pad (mainly right) can be swapped for heraldry on characters and vets.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Crimson_fists_by_majesticchicken-d3iuw3f.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/TTnBmalmmiI/AAAAAAAABfo/e73ilJLUVMs/darkangels_sm.jpg
(the last pic is dark angel scarface but it convays the message)
There is also a rogue trader picture indicating captains get custom heraldry (rogue trader is no longer offical canon however)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/shoulderw.jpg/

The codex astarates does give marines leeway in customisation of armour so the rogue trader heraldry may still be acceptable. This is from the codex indicating different vet heradry. http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/1/5/170069-Codex%20Astartes,%20Copyright%20Games%20Workshop,% 20Space%20Marines,%20Veteran.jpg

As part of the armour also use aquillas, laurels for bravery, skulls for veterancy, thunder bolts for terra veterans (now far and few) and iron halos for heroism. Terminator honours wouldnt go far wrong on vets either.

As you can see there is alot of leeway in markings as different sources all have different information. I've tried to put together a fair prediction using sources of what would be a standard marking for crimson fists.

Rogue trader/pre-heresy (differetnt but many use rogue trader as an influence) also brings a plethora of other stuff to use. veteran arm bands and shoulder markings. weapon marking on shoulder. service studs, weapon kill marks.
You might also use the adaptus mechanicus sign to show some affiliation with the admech (maybe has helped with some mission) or a gothic check pattern on a leg to indicate a campaign. Or helmet stripes with different colours. This also helps you think of little stories for each marine. A marine loses a limb defending vs orks, has campaign markings, a laurel and a metal leg to prove it. The bold indicates non canon.

mdeceiver79
15-01-2012, 18:32
I tried to post yesterday and my post still hasn't been given the ok by an admin (i think because of links) so ill repost without images or links

I'll reference the codex astrates often which is the "standard" marine insignia. Crimson fists and the successors of imperial fists often deviate from this so it is not force upon you.

Shoulder pads-
Left - IF not studded then has chapter symbol (red fist in black circle) (if studded then chapter symbol goes on right instead)
right - troop sysmbol the codex astarates states for troops it is a white upwards pointing arrow. Some chapers use a horizontal twin headed arrow. Crimson fists use a black circle with a red upwards arrow. The squad number or symbol also goes on this pad.
Some characters and veterans use personal heraldry (or heraldry of great chapter heros) on their right pad more on this later

Helmet - Blue same as armour. rogue trader scheme and pre-heresy imperial fists used helmet stripes to indicate veterans. The modern crimsonfists use a centralised skull with laurels to indicate veterans. Either or these will work it is up to you. (i mentioned imperial fists as the crimson fists will base their markings heavily off their founding chapter)

chest - Aquilla is blue, red, white, silver or gold. I think characters use silver and gold. This is up to you and how it ties with the asthetic of the team.

fists - Some art deptics characters with 2 painted fists. Prehaps veterans and heros have 2 red fists. But the standard is a red left fist.

knees - In codex astrates the red knee pad or shoulder trims contain the company marking. The crimson fists do not seem to follow this docterine so you are free to keep the knees plain.

You may wish to make each marine tell their own story by giving them heraldry (in the case of characters or vets) and honour markings.

iron skull - leadership skills (codex astartes suggests red)
laurel - bravery (work by vets and banner bearers and others)
purity seal
iron halo - battle initiative
golden bolter - marksmens honour
aquilla - campaign marking or general victory marking
skull - used with writing, swords, halos, wings to create generic honour badges
admech cog skull symbol - might be used to show marine has worked with admech
terminator honour symbol - veterancy (used in codex astartes to indicate marine is worthy of terminator armour 100+ years service in most cases, often more)
script - honour a campaign or part of heraldry
General campaing markings. Might be gothic check, stars, animals, symbols.
Thunderbolt - Terra veteran (far and few) might be placed around or as part of aquilla.

Most of above can be placed anywhere on marine or within heraldry.

Rogue trader also had:
Kill marks on weapons: considered good luck to mark gun. skull=10 kills slash = 1
gold cheveron: command or veterancy often also with a diamond in the middle. placed round arm or below capter symbol (chapter symbol moved to a smaller circle to the top of pad.
Gun markings: special weapons marines are indicated on shoulder.

It helps to look at medieval heraldry when constructing a shoulder, most of above is seperate from heraldry to be place anywhere on the marine.

Its a choice to make.
Sombre and modest - Very few markers making the force look unified and threatening.

heraldry, seals and awards - Powerful knightly order each marine being a veteran with stories to tell.

Badges with rogue trader influence - Scifi space marines with custom armour markings, at risk of looking like boy scouts.

Also consider any preheresy imperial fists insignia will do (lots of crimson fist veterans will have been part of this army.)
Since the Imperial fist successors don't follow the codex astartes so rigidly you have alot of leeway in what you do. You may also use preheresy markings from other chapters since these represent the markings which the imperial fists might have used when the crimson fists where founded.

Combining the above also works. You might have a marine with an admech symbol, heavy bionics and a laurel to represent some battle where he was injured during some heroic deed working with the admech then was rewarded with some high level prosthetics.
A marine using old pattern armour, with thunderbolts on it and various skulls of veterancy to indicate a terra veteran.

Leftenant Gashrog
15-01-2012, 20:17
The modern crimsonfists use a centralised skull with laurels to indicate veterans. Either or these will work it is up to you.

fists - Some art deptics characters with 2 painted fists. Prehaps veterans and heros have 2 red fists. But the standard is a red left fist.

Are you sure about that? The Crimson Fists IA article included a picture of "Veteran Sergeant with Laureola Aurum" (gold laurel) but it didn't specify if the emblem was relevant to one, both or neither of those statuses. The example Crimson Fist squad in the 4th edition codex was a veteran squad and they had plain helmets. It has been stated in canon that CF veterancy is denoted by both gauntlets being painted red (I forget where exactly however - possibly the Games Day bumf from a few years ago).


iron halo - battle initiative
If we're covering old-skool fluff then it should be noted that in 2nd edition this was the rank emblem for a Squad Leader - the 2nd in command of a 10-man squad.


terminator honour symbol - veterancy (used in codex astartes to indicate marine is worthy of terminator armour 100+ years service in most cases, often more)
Terminator Honours specifically show that the marine has trained in its use which only happens to marines in the 1st company - unlike the general veteran markings which the marine gets as soon as his achieves that status.


gold cheveron: command or veterancy often also with a diamond in the middle. placed round arm or below capter symbol (chapter symbol moved to a smaller circle to the top of pad.
The chevron was the rank emblem for sergeant, veteran sergeants has the diamond whilst non-veterans lacked it. Captains had.. for lack of a better term: a sweety wrapper with diamond.


Also consider any preheresy imperial fists insignia will do (lots of crimson fist veterans will have been part of this army.)


The last veterans of the Imperial Fist legion will have been dead for at least 8,000 years, I don't know about the Crimsons but the oldest Imperial Fist is Lysander and he's less than 2 millenia old, and thats only because he spent a thousand years trapped in the warp - even the Blood Angels who are reknowned for their longevity don't have anyone that old.

mdeceiver79
15-01-2012, 20:21
Ah thanks for clearing up this stuff.
I was unaware of the old usage of the iron halo.

I think the 2 red fists is best as veteran, the article I heard about the laurel must have just been a veteran with the laurel rather than a symbol for veterancy.

Shame bout the terra vets being dead, he could also have his army based just after the 2nd founding. I suppose it is a decision he needs to make.

You have good knowledge of the older editions :) thank you

Paul 8v
03-04-2012, 13:30
I'm also starting a crimson fists army, I thought it would be best to start in this thread rather than a new one. It's interesting about the fists being either the single one or the two fists depending on veterancy, I've been trying to work this out for ages as I've seen it so many different ways!
Where it says the chest aquilla should be blue, red, white, silver or gold and characters use silver and gold I take it that it would be acceptable to paint the aquilla silver on my normal tactical troops?

My main reason for posting is the colour of the teschmarines that drive the vehicles, should these all be the dark red colour or should it still be blue but with a red helmet? The reason I ask is the one in the stormraven is visible and I shal be painting it soon (I realise it's not for the fists but I'll be using it with friends only and we decided it was far too cool not to use)

Many thanks

Paul

Paul 8v
06-04-2012, 17:43
I've painted the helmet, shoulder pad with adeptus mechanicus bit and the corresponding arm red, the rest of the Marine in chapter colours.

marv335
06-04-2012, 18:03
Veterans have both fists painted, everyone else only has the left fist painted.

Bubbatron
06-04-2012, 18:10
Veterans have both fists painted, everyone else only has the left fist painted.
apart from scouts, no red fist until theyve become a full marine

Paul 8v
07-04-2012, 22:49
apart from scouts, no red fist until theyve become a full marine
If you look inthe space marine codex the scout has both hands painted red.... Possibly because it adds a bit of colour to the model!

unwanted
07-04-2012, 23:27
It's also worth noting that several Chapters, Imperial Fists and Ultramarines amongst them, denote company with the colour of their shoulderpad-trim. I don't know if this ever applied to the Crimson Fists, but after Rynn's World, there's been so few Crimson Fists that these markings are redundant at present.

Paul 8v
09-04-2012, 20:46
I've never seen it done but it's worth noting in the Space Marine codex the picture on the last page has slightly different colours for the inside of the shoulder pads on a few models.

Paul 8v
09-04-2012, 21:03
Although that might just be the way it's painted but the centre does look black. Codex marine sergeants and veterans should have red/white helmets is this true for them too? Also do scout sergeants count as a full marine or are they still a scout? I always thought they were marines that had been placed with scouts to empart thier knowledge and experience but I'm probably wrong...