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Forsworn
15-01-2012, 03:21
The heroic vent that 40k has taken, or a more grim-dark place?

Personally, I like the latter. I don't want "Badass #123409865729873645" one-upping some other random badass who, statistically, should have died the moment he looked up from his fox hole. I want a never ending war where the good die young, the bad die young, and the cowardly survive a little longer. Where nobody cares who lives and dies. I want the suggestion that even the best place to live is horrible. I want chaos, paranoia, death, devastation. A galaxy that literally DOES seem like the preface of a black library book. A universe of terror, death, drowned in blood, deafened by the laughter of dark thirsting gods. I want those gods to be terrified of what the future will bring for them, gods who frantically try to preserve themselves as they delight in their perverse nature. Honorable gods who fight them in a never ending struggle, creating as much death as dark gods who work for only their own gratification.

Basically, I want the 40k we have now to take its medicine and return to a time where even the greatest heroes were insignificant specks, their actions the tiniest ripples in the sea.


P.S. I also want Draigo and Mordrak gone, and purifiers ret-conned into something other than "SOOPER DOOPER GREY KNIGHTS". *THAT* however, is an entirely different point. :P

The Marshel
15-01-2012, 03:43
Most the super powered heroes that fall under your complaint aren't exactly new. Lysander and calgar are very well established, vect and abby are far from new. Dante and mephesition are again very old characters.

The only real differance is that gw has been producing higher quality special character rules then they have in the past. Every new codex has had a calgar equivalent and to be frank I see nothing wrong with this, as all well established races and factions in 40k have always had a clear calgar equivalent.

IronCrust
15-01-2012, 04:05
I agree, I miss the feeling of desperation, the struggle to survive and the uncertainty of everything.
Nowadays, while still dark, it feels more like an 80's action movie; the bad guys are seeking to build doomsday weapons and so on, while the good guys are big buff heroes without flaws, that merely exist to kick some butt, and look cool while doing it.

Ofcourse, this might just be rose-tinted glasses.

Kakapo42
15-01-2012, 04:31
I actually prefer neither, and would like it more if the setting was somewhere in between the two. What I'd like is something like the older darker setting, but with a few faint glimmers of hope sprinkled throughout it (like the Tau). That way there's still all that makes 40k 40k, but with the chance, however remote, for a happy ending at the end of it all.

ForgottenLore
15-01-2012, 04:52
I want a de-emphasis on GW's pet special characters (and signature armies for that matter) and a return to encouraging players to create their own characters, armies and stories.

Do that and the tone can be whatever the players want it to be.

Noobie2k7
15-01-2012, 05:07
Do away with Special characters completely, (just reduce them to mention in fluff) give all the basic HQ's more options and also options for unique special rules and have everyone create their own.

Vipoid
15-01-2012, 12:05
I want a de-emphasis on GW's pet special characters (and signature armies for that matter) and a return to encouraging players to create their own characters, armies and stories.

Agreed.

I'm fed up with all the best equipment, weapons and special rules going to Special Characters, whilst the standard commander armoury is barely better than what's available to the sargeants.

I don't want to have to take a special character just to use a particular type of army. If a special character can allow a certain unit to be taken as troops, then there should also be at least 1 non-SC who allows that unit to be taken as troops.

I'm fed up with special characters that are just flat out better than any non-SC counterpart (St Celestine is a good example).

I'm fed up with SCs with Eternal Warrior and 2+/3+ saves, who stroll invincibly around the battlefield. Sorry, but no amount of prestiege should save you if you get hit by a siege weapon.

Similarly, I'm fed up with SCs that can tear apart MCs in a single turn of combat, without sustaining a scratch. If a SC kills a MC, it should be a hard-won victory, wherein he emerges bloody but triumphant from the creature's corpse - not something he casually strolls through while reading the morning propaganda.


In essence, I'm fed up with codex writers giving all the best abilities to their favourite SCs, and leaving virtually nothing for the standard army leaders. At the very least, I want to make my own character, not use one someone else has made.

Furthermore, it still affects me even when I don't play the codex in question, because I quickly get bored of facing Eldrad, St. Celestine or Mordrak every single game.

Noobie2k7
15-01-2012, 12:19
As i said, get rid of them completely and give more options to basic HQ's like the options for taking things like bikes or elite assault troops or tanks as troop choices. (except termies, i think any army that can get termies as troops is just bad ideas)

Vipoid
15-01-2012, 12:28
As i said, get rid of them completely and give more options to basic HQ's like the options for taking things like bikes or elite assault troops or tanks as troop choices. (except termies, i think any army that can get termies as troops is just bad ideas)

I wouldn't mind this.

If they want to include special characters, they can build them from the same equipment regular HQs are allowed.

Radium
15-01-2012, 12:28
"The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed."

THAT is the feeling I want in my 40k. So I agree with you that we need more Grim-Dark (TM), and a lot less super special characters that make very little sense fluffwise.

Noobie2k7
15-01-2012, 12:33
In tourneys it wouldn't make much of a difference anyway as people would still use the best mix of wargear so you'd still see effectively the same thing happening only every character wouldn't be called Draigo or Vulcan or Logan.

inq.serge
15-01-2012, 12:37
Imagine Valhalla infanterists standing quiet next to some earthshakers, waiting in silence and snow. Krieg Deathkorps sitting in trenches. Marching steel-legionaires in mud and bad weather.

I don't want it insta-grimdark, I want it miserable, horrible, sad, but slowly growing darker and darker with insanity, paranoia and chaos. Each tale told slowly turning from saddest grey to darkest grimdark.

There's no place for heroes, there's no place for grandeur, there's no place for hope. There's only place for blood , for hate, for fear, for misery. In the dark future of the 41 millennium, there is only war.

Vipoid
15-01-2012, 12:37
In tourneys it wouldn't make much of a difference anyway as people would still use the best mix of wargear so you'd still see effectively the same thing happening only every character wouldn't be called Draigo or Vulcan or Logan.

You might, but at least Draigo wouldn't have T5 and eternal warrior.

Noobie2k7
15-01-2012, 12:44
You might, but at least Draigo wouldn't have T5 and eternal warrior. This is true. I do think eternal warrior is a pretty stupid thing to give anyone as a special rule. Yes it;s no fun having your 300pt SC one hit but that's why you shouldn't have spent 300 points on 1 model in the first place.

Infern0
15-01-2012, 13:53
simply the second

Born Again
15-01-2012, 14:15
I don't see why we can't have both, and that we haven't always since the days of second. The way I've always seen it, yes 40k is a place of badass heroes, Calgar striding through hordes of orks punching them out left right and centre. This one man's presence will win the war. But it is just one war amongst many, in a galaxy very clearly going down the drain fast... The fact that in the face of such insurmountable odds a few men can stand and fight relentlessly, but without any real hope of ever making a real difference, adds to the grimdark for me in a way.

Souleater
15-01-2012, 16:56
While I can ignore large chunks of background (NewCrons) I do find that the 'need' for heroics within the game is somewhat irritating as a Xeno player.

Heroics is why we have Eternal Warrior and NR working in it's stupid backwards fashion.

mdeceiver79
15-01-2012, 17:29
The heroic stuff is boring. Including all the new characters in codices is rediculous. Creed warmaster during the 13th black crusade leading a 1000pt force of 2 platoons. Seriously?

I like the grimdark but it has turned slightly rediculous. To the point where it has become that was through design rather than the steady decay of the emperors master plan.

The scifi influence of rogue trader was most interesting to me. Space marines being mortal, damaged armour, artwork of desperate last stands with blooded marines waiting for evac.
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/1/10/RT-Blood_Drinkers_Space_Marine.jpg
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv896zaUET1r1g40zo1_500.jpg

renegade merc marines
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l28k9wqkZw1qbfdqyo1_500.jpg

slavers and bounty hunters
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfvmj4TjM91qbfdqyo1_500.jpg

mdeceiver79
15-01-2012, 18:37
The whole heros everywhere with overpowered characters in 500 point armies is rediculous.

And the grimdark thing just seems grimdark by design instead of the steady decay of the emperors plan.

I quite like the rogue trader stuff. Heavy scifi vibe. Marines being very mortal, just shock troops of the imperial army rather than invincible knights who can punch tanks 10 metres.
Slave worlds with a mix of xenos, bandits and bounty hunters (think star wars)
The imperium still run by self interested gothic lords but with each world having a flavour. Renegade marines hiding in ghettos, offering their services as mercenaries. Also the weapon variety needler pistols, poisons. Marine power armoured snipers and scouts.

Out of your 2 options however, I choose grimdark :)

Veteran Sergeant
15-01-2012, 18:42
I want a de-emphasis on GW's pet special characters (and signature armies for that matter) and a return to encouraging players to create their own characters, armies and stories.

Do that and the tone can be whatever the players want it to be.Yep. The old days when Special Characters were the exception, not the rule, made for a much better game.

brightblade
15-01-2012, 18:49
I like heroes in a grimdark setting. The noble captain fighting to stem the inevitable tide. The farseer searching for a path to avoid his race's doom. And so on for each faction.

What I do want though is for those characters to be mine. Not having to do 'counts as' to get a decent leader....

Still like the game though. ;)

Chapters Unwritten
15-01-2012, 18:51
Most the super powered heroes that fall under your complaint aren't exactly new. Lysander and calgar are very well established, vect and abby are far from new. Dante and mephesition are again very old characters.

The only real differance is that gw has been producing higher quality special character rules then they have in the past. Every new codex has had a calgar equivalent and to be frank I see nothing wrong with this, as all well established races and factions in 40k have always had a clear calgar equivalent.

The problem isn't the characters. The problem is that they are all doing so damn well for themselves and their faction all the time. I can't quite put my finger on it but a big ting for me is that I really liked the concepts that hatred and intolerance were also the only hope in a universe on the Che of collapse. The thing is, reading the codex stories, it lest seem that way t all. In fact, both in-game and outside of it, the Imperium is doing quite well and holding together rather handily. There simply is no more impending doom.

That Matt Ward is writing a large portion of the game has affected this as well because his stuff is formulaic insofar as "epic hero X did (positive thing)" so this is a factor as well.

I greatly miss the dark depictions throughout 4th edition, but it's also a gameplay thing as well. In 4th, th bd guys were powerful and intimidating to play as well as to behold. Now, they are the easily dispatched armies. It should never have been like that, ever. I miss the uphill battle feel of last edition and the way things were unknown and uncertain. With the rumored shift to Chaos as a focal point I think this peeling bak of the veil is only going to get worse.

Notanoob
15-01-2012, 22:13
As much as I hate to just blame it on Ward, just about everything he has written has fallen into this overly heroic invincible badass junk. It's not particularly good stuff and the fact that SCs basically make the army in some cases is annoying. What happened to building your own HQ? Your own Regiment, chapter, or swarm? That stuff was cool.

Vipoid
15-01-2012, 22:20
As much as I hate to just blame it on Ward, just about everything he has written has fallen into this overly heroic invincible badass junk. It's not particularly good stuff and the fact that SCs basically make the army in some cases is annoying. What happened to building your own HQ? Your own Regiment, chapter, or swarm? That stuff was cool.

There's also the point that heroes are generally heroic because they use their guile, tactics and skill to survive against the odds.

Making your 'heroes' invincible badasses who tear through anything in their path without blinking an eye (See: Draigo) doesn't make them heroic. It makes them smug, unlikable, egotists who could best be improved with a makeover from a Demolisher Cannon.

Scaryscarymushroom
15-01-2012, 22:35
I prefer the grim darkness of the far future. A game of heroes isn't something I want out of 40k.

4th edition books don't seem to be able to make very many competitive lists by today's standards, but (unlike 5th edition codices) not every competitive list will use special characters. In fact, some special characters don't belong in any competitive list (see Tau)!

As far as gameplay is concerned, it is disappointing that squadrons of models aren't key factors on most gaming tables. Sure, your troops may be the only thing that will win you the game, but they can't do anything else. If I wanted to play hero-hammer, I'd play Warmachine. And Warmachine's a fine game. Just not my cup of tea.

The Devourer
15-01-2012, 23:59
I much prefer the grimdark feel. One of things I like(d) most about 40k is that even the best warriors or toughest heroes are insignificant compared to the rest of the setting. You may be an amazing soldier trained for years and armoured in the best gear available but can still get eaten by tyranid monster. I have certainly noticed GW starting to put more emphasis on SC. They have always existed but now they are having a much bigger impact. I have no problem with Calgar being strong but he shouldn't be causing galaxy wide events, he is still just one man. By all means make caracters heroic but do it in a way that makes sense- keep it within the limits of the character. If you want a SC chapter master make him a great leader rather than just godly strong.

My biggest problem is when characters meet. In a setting as wide as 40k special characters should never meet (ok there are some exception like Yarrik and Ghaz). They may coordinate attacks against each other but being on the same battle is unlikely let alone the same battle.

I would much prefer if they kept SC in the background, made HQ choices generic and gave you the options to arm them as SC. 40k is biggen enough that even the best heroes aren't entirely unique. Dante may be powerful but there are certainly equally powerful chapter masters out there that we haven't heard of.

Okuto
16-01-2012, 00:02
I want more sci-fi injected.....and less heroics....but between heroic and grimdark....

Give me more grimdark.....

Cause from what the latest Imperial dexes tell us...the Imperium has it pretty good....

GrimZAG
16-01-2012, 04:25
I like the special characters and I think 40k is a dark enough place as it is.

The Death of Reason
16-01-2012, 12:12
Do away with Special characters completely, (just reduce them to mention in fluff) give all the basic HQ's more options and also options for unique special rules and have everyone create their own.

Or make SCs an example build from their respective templates.

Ryan814
16-01-2012, 13:55
I remember seeing debates over similar things to this with the DnD Ravenloft setting, I feel like to some people grim dark gothic horro means the good guys always die or lose and the bad guys always get away. To me the setting in 40k is pretty dark, say what you want about Calgar, he may have gone toe to toe with giant Tyranids and came out on top, but from his point of view the situation was so desperate that in the end he consigned a billion imperial citizens to death by using planet popper bombs to destory a world, that seems pretty grim to me. This sort of a setting breeds heros and I think the setting would be lost without them.

I think one reason they seem over the top isn't so much the codex writers want to make them seem like a god but the limited space in a short story for character development or to portray more than any one aspect of a given battle.

In regards to their power level in the fluff, I think beatting 1 avatar or carnifex isn't that much of a stretch, my little un named Chaos Lord has been the bane of more carifexs on the table than I can count, certainly more that he has been killed by.

Game rukes wise I do get fustrated by the special rules they get that I can't have with my own generic character, but I believe the OP was refering more to the story than the game play.

Basically I think Warhammer and 40k are games about heros, anyone who picks up a gun and goes forward to defend his people in this kind of universe can't really be described by any other word. I believe some people need to just take a closer look at the events surrounding some of these high profile one on one's to see the grim outlook, armageddon can be thought of as the planet where the few heroically stood against all odds and won, but also as the place where the few became the fewer and the planet was wrecked with civilian casualties in the millions or more its all in how you look at it.

Righthandedtwin
16-01-2012, 14:16
I think the biggest problem with Matt Ward is he doesn't understand Sci-fi and he doesn't understand 40k.

His habit of writing "AND HE IS THE GREATEST WARRIOR OF HIS PEOPLE WHO CAN DRIVE ARMIES BEFORE HIM WITH HIS PAN DIMENSION ULTIMATELY DESTRUCTIVE TWIG OF TWIGGERY" is so out of place...BUT!! it would fit pretty damn well into something like saaay, WHFB, I think he approaches 40k as if he were writing about the newest champion of chaos to descend from the wastes to lay seige to a bretonni castle, whom with daemon blade in hand didst cleave down the mighty castle gate.

"EPIC HEROES" don't work in sci-fi due to the scale, in a million world IP one guy shouldn't be such a big deal, shouldn't have such a massive impact compared with a single world with 11 nations where legends travel fast and having this tremendous heroes of ultimate skill makes more sense.

Hellebore
16-01-2012, 14:30
GW are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They are trying to have the grim dark 'every man is but a spark in the darkness' AND also simultaneously have badass comicbook superheroes that are the greatest at everything (seriously, read the list of things Calgar can do - he can apparently look at a battlefield and with that one glance know how to win....). Ward also retconned Lysander far more egregiously by actually bringing him back from the dead and giving him a totally OTT escape from daemon alcatraz entrance.

But those two positions aren't compatable. The problem isn't that a grim dark setting can't have heroism, it's that a setting like 40k simply can't realistically contain the kind of larger than life, uber leet heroes Ward is pumping out.

They keep printing the preface to 40k, which has remained unchanged for 25 years. In it says that to be a man in such times is to be one in untold billions. Whatever happens you will not be missed. But none of the Ward characters fit this at all. Most of the space marine book is taken up with telling us how the ultramarines owe their victories to Calgar, rather than as a team effort or under the command of one of the dozens of commanders in the ultramarines.

The problem is that it doesn't gel with the setting nor with the faction in question. What about all the previous ultramarine chapter masters? They were presumably just as awesome as Calgar to become chapter master. How exactly did they all die in the first place to let Calgar get his job? Calgar seems indestructible.

Either he's a freak of awesome and they were all blessed with suck or he doesn't fit into the story like he should.

40k is unimaginably deadly. So many things in the universe can kill anything, doesn't matter if you're a space marine or not. One stray demolisher shell, orbital barrage, friendly fire or whatever and poof! dead commander. Being a hero doesn't protect you from bullets to the face.

Hellebore

omegoku
16-01-2012, 14:35
There is nothing wrong with heroics in 40k, its just that the heros are getting more 1 dimensional awesome with no flaws and the Special Character Rules went from "optional, need permission, overpriced characters" to "This is a captain, only he has more wounds, better toughness, makes all your men better, unlocks this elite unit as troops, all for 25 points"

Draigo and the GK in general are way ott in both fluff and rules.
Before the GK went into hopeless situations, cost themselves dearly in lives, and may have saved the world, but only for a few years.
They were fighting an unwinnable war, but were heroes because they were willing to sacrifice themselves to slow Chaos and even throw it back for a few years. Sometimes they had to do evil, like killing potentially corrupted men they fought beside, or exterminating a planet rather than allowing a daemon world to manifest.

Now Draigo kills Blood Thirsters for breakfast, while his buddies commit sorceress acts, kill pure humans to be more incorruptible than totally incorruptible.
That ain't the 40k that got me hooked in 3rd Edition!

Righthandedtwin
16-01-2012, 14:43
I think there is an even bigger lore issue at hand than Draigo and that is literally the entire Ultramarines chapter are so one dimensional, over the top, over powered, flawless and drab, dreary, boring, bland that they aren't appealing to play as ever. This is kind of the preface for the rest of the game that the UM are this special, unique, irreplicable group so brilliant and beyond compare they are the one beacon of light in the Imperiums darkest hour which is indicative of the stale approach 40k is taking a whole. Atleast having these heroes distracts from it.

tsz52
16-01-2012, 19:46
Yeah Grimdark all the way! Not just Grimdark but, more importantly cr*psack; good intentions and deeds and having a pure heart won't save you, there are no enlightened plot-gods who will gift you with a handy deus ex machina for this, and your good and heroic deeds probably won't be remembered (or will be remembered badly, your name cursed), you'll suffer for them, and there's a good chance that you'll have just made everything worse: But doing it anyway is REAL heroism.

The Imperium's built on the blood of martyrs, not Calgar's invulnerable and dandruff-free shoulders.

To me the setting's exemplified by the miltia (encouraged to stand and fight heroically against the orks by the SoB) being butchered (and eaten?) by the Flesh Tearers whilst the SoB withdrew (then complained); or the guy in the Gothic War novel who saves the ship against a warp gribbly but in so doing costs the ship her best pilot and he's burnt to a crisp but still lives on in agony for having done the right thing; or the sacrifice of the Dominus Astra to save Ultramar, which cost the IoM an irreplacable Battleship, excellent Admiral and (though not stated, I'd think this would be the case) doomed her hundreds of thousands of crew - including the Admiral who gave the order - to eternal torment (I doubt that the Gellar Fields will have been up*).

That's why I keep coming back to the 40k universe above all others [despite tempestuous relationship with GW over many, many years], especially as I get older and less idealistic (ie more bitter and jaded): It has a real dark Truth at its core that Trek and SW and LotR and GitS etc lack... though this is being eroded.

It's probably best to not erode your Unique Selling Point too much, eh?!

Haven't played since 3rd Ed, since I could see where it was going then, but agree that the way SCs were handled back then was much better; where they would only be brought out of the case occasionally for a change or narrative reason, and they had some interesting and characterful quirks but fairly standard equipment for their faction, which added verisimilitude... 'yes all of your Veteran Sergeants might have Plasma Pistols but they are actually very rare like the fluff states - see, even the mighty x only has a Bolt Pistol.'

*This is important in something I'm writing, so I'm really glad to see so many folks wanting the lore to go back a bit more to what it was; where the BL preface is actually true.

Vipoid
16-01-2012, 23:21
On the subject of heroes, I was really disappointed that they removed the 'Martyr' rule from the WD SoB codex.

I thought it was a good example of what Imperium heroes in 40k *should* be:

You can't win the war yourself and your chances of surviving are miniscule - all you can hope for is to die a glorious death in the name of The Emperor, and hopefully take some enemies with you.

Beppo1234
17-01-2012, 01:57
I want a de-emphasis on GW's pet special characters (and signature armies for that matter) and a return to encouraging players to create their own characters, armies and stories.

Do that and the tone can be whatever the players want it to be.

agreed. But I don't want the SCs gone either. What I'd rather, is that SCs are a possible build of the standard nameless equivalent unit. (ie. Calgar is just a possible build of a generic Chapter Master unit, Mephiston is a possible build of a BA librarian... ...). I never liked the idea of 'build your own' SC as a facimile of the SCs we've provided you with.

luchog
20-01-2012, 21:40
Do away with Special characters completely, (just reduce them to mention in fluff) give all the basic HQ's more options and also options for unique special rules and have everyone create their own.

Agreed.

I'm fed up with all the best equipment, weapons and special rules going to Special Characters, whilst the standard commander armoury is barely better than what's available to the sargeants.

Also agree. I like doing homebrew SCs that aren't so grossly overpowered. Strong, but with some significant weaknesses. More options for standard HQ choices and less reliance on untouchable SCs.

Noobie2k7
20-01-2012, 21:50
For a start the Eternal warrior rule needs to go. Not sure how WFB works the ID rulings but then again usually if a character gets taken out in 1 turn of combat it's because he just got taken down in a flurry of blows. Special characters in WHFB are a fair bit less OP than 40K ones. That's even including Teclis and Archeon(sp?) too. Then again in WHFB you REALLY pay the points for what the character can do.

Scaryscarymushroom
20-01-2012, 22:14
I disagree about Eternal Warrior needing to go. Either Instant death needs to be completely reworked, or Eternal Warrior needs to be more liberally applied.
Because of Instant death and lack of Eternal Warrior, about half of the tyranid codex is useless.

Noobie2k7
20-01-2012, 22:23
I think it's just that MC's need a rework really. Just ignoring armour and getting 2d6 ArmPen doesn't help when you only move 6" a turn and get torn apart halfway there. Not sure exactly what i would give to MC's but i know something does.

Vipoid
20-01-2012, 22:35
I disagree about Eternal Warrior needing to go. Either Instant death needs to be completely reworked, or Eternal Warrior needs to be more liberally applied.
Because of Instant death and lack of Eternal Warrior, about half of the tyranid codex is useless.

To be honest, I don't mind ID itself, and I'd much rather see EW vanish completely then see ID go.

I think the problem is the abundance of ID available. Many races can get a huge amount of S8 weapons - even large blast ones - for very little cost. Squads can be upgrades with meltas for only a few points. I think that these options should be more expensive and/or restricted. GK's *all* have force weapons, and many units can strike at genestealer initiative with them.

In addition, one of the problems is that these weapons tend to perform double duty - they can ID many characters, but are also very effective against vehicles. If the meta wasn't so mech-heavy, S8+ weapns might not be so abundant.

Furthermore, half the Tyranid codex isn't useless because of Eternal Warrior; half the tyranid codex is useless because Cruddace is a complete imbecile, who was apparently designing the codex for some hypothetical meta, which in fact existed only in his own deluded mind.

Noobie2k7
20-01-2012, 22:41
I think the problem is that the Tyranid codex is balanced. It's just everything that has been released after the last Tyranid codex that has issues. The only way to fix this is to release a new tyranid codex and bring them up to speed with everything else.

You can hardly blame Cruddace for writing the codex. It was brought out in '09. Before this current Meta was really established. So if you want to blame someone for not being able to see into the future then go ahead :P

Vipoid
20-01-2012, 22:46
I think the problem is that the Tyranid codex is balanced. It's just everything that has been released after the last Tyranid codex that has issues. The only way to fix this is to release a new tyranid codex and bring them up to speed with everything else.

You can hardly blame Cruddace for writing the codex. It was brought out in '09. Before this current Meta was really established. So if you want to blame someone for not being able to see into the future then go ahead :P

But that's the thing, the codex was bad even before DE and GK. 5th edition was heavily mechanised and full of S8 weapons. Cruddace totally ignored both these facts. He created numerous expensive T4, multi-wound models, with no protection from ID. He also made sure that virtually nothing had invulnerable saves - making the appearance of GK far worse.

He also created horrible internal balance, with overpriced units, pointless 'upgrades' and many other failiers.

AM1640
20-01-2012, 23:17
I wonder if the OP would like to see GW advance the date a little and kill off an older special character (or maybe one from every codex to be fair) and then introduce a new special character. I realise that some people are very attached to the characters but maybe whan a new codx or edition of the game is brought out GW could kill off some characters (with a suitable fluff story to fill the new codex with) and introduce a new character.
How dark and gritty of a world do you want to live in? Most societies would find it difficult to exist in a constant state of war. How do you grow any basic foods? How do you develop technologies? Why are you fighting? Long term warfare in isolated pockets (certain front line planets that would suck to live on) is a little bit more believable even for science fiction. You seem like the type that has probably enjoyed playing large games of apocalypse to experience the fun of removing entire units in one go... Powerarmour with a cover save won't help if your foxhole is turned into a kilometre deep crater.

Noobie2k7
21-01-2012, 09:22
That would be good but some SC's are so imbedded in the armies history it would be impossible to just get rid of them. I mean could you imagine a DE codex without Vect, Lilly or Rakarth? I sure couldn't.

Shadowheart
21-01-2012, 11:16
I'd prefer it if the main sources of background (the rulebook, Codices) described the setting in general terms. That they give us a context and basic template for what armies, battles, characters etc. of 40K are like. Which ought to be a very bleak picture overall.

Then I wouldn't so much mind if the protagonists of the novels broke the mould by being more succesful and conventionally heroic. I'd like to see it played straight more often than it is, but whatever, I accept that the rules get bent for the sake of the story.

And that there's going to be kids who write fanfic about the über-awesome crap their guys did, well, who cares, let 'em have fun. But post it on the internet, not page 38 of the Grey Knights Codex.

Bunnahabhain
21-01-2012, 11:39
I wouldn't mind this.
If they want to include special characters, they can build them from the same equipment regular HQs are allowed.

"The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed."
THAT is the feeling I want in my 40k. So I agree with you that we need more Grim-Dark (TM), and a lot less super special characters that make very little sense fluffwise.

Yep. The old days when Special Characters were the exception, not the rule, made for a much better game.

I think the biggest problem with Matt Ward is he doesn't understand Sci-fi and he doesn't understand 40k.


These nicely sum up my position, with one minor caveat.

There are a tiny number of special characters who you can't build from a generic template- Memphiston, for example.
I don't mean Calgar or such like- (Generic chapter master with the right war gear, done.). I mean those with great big, unavoidable background reasons that they simply exceed the standard model.

However, these people should not provide huge force buffs, FOC swaps, etc, etc. A special characters should not be the only way to play an army.

logan054
21-01-2012, 12:10
I agree, I miss the feeling of desperation, the struggle to survive and the uncertainty of everything.
Nowadays, while still dark, it feels more like an 80's action movie; the bad guys are seeking to build doomsday weapons and so on, while the good guys are big buff heroes without flaws, that merely exist to kick some butt, and look cool while doing it.

Ofcourse, this might just be rose-tinted glasses.

40k has good guys?

DietDolphin
21-01-2012, 12:36
I like having the empahsis on the nameless dude who fights to the death when he should have rolled over and just died, rather than Mr Sunshine-out-my-**** playing wack-a-mole with every xenos in the galaxy. Having these superduper characters who can do everything and beat everyone with a flick of the wrist makes me wonder why the imperium even feels threatened by anything.

I remember a part in one of the Horus Heresy books (Galaxy in Flames?) where some loyalist World eaters are told they have been betrayed and a second later Angron lands right in front of them. Without hesitation they just go "Lets do this! LEEROY GENKINS!" and charge straight at the angriest, deadliest known being in the galaxy, straight to their deaths. That to me defines warhammer 40k, not "Calgar killed 1, 2 wait 3 million orkses with nothing but 10 civilians, a toothpick and bellyflint".

DietDolphin
21-01-2012, 12:40
40k has good guys?

Yea, the good guys are the ones who snap open nuns above their heads and bath in their holy blood before going to war right?

GrimZAG
21-01-2012, 13:30
Having these superduper characters who can do everything and beat everyone with a flick of the wrist makes me wpmder why the imperium even feels threatened by anything.

Does the Imperium feel threatened by anything? (from their point of view)

Also, I like special characters. I want someone awesome to lead my army.

DietDolphin
21-01-2012, 13:58
Does the Imperium feel threatened by anything? (from their point of view)

Also, I like special characters. I want someone awesome to lead my army.

I like special characters too, but they seem less awesome if every enemy is portrayed as as harmless as a bunny. When they real struggle against an enermy, and somehow manage to find a way to win (in a believable/non-MarySue manor), thats how they become badass.

Noobie2k7
21-01-2012, 13:59
Does the Imperium feel threatened by anything? (from their point of view)

Also, I like special characters. I want someone awesome to lead my army. What's wrong with making up your own awesome to lead your army?

The Death of Reason
21-01-2012, 16:20
It takes a bit of effort and creativity. Also you can't buy the nifty superpowers of the SCs.

Personally, I'd prefer, if SCs were just example builds on the character templates :)

Noobie2k7
21-01-2012, 16:45
Plus i don't agree with this FOC swapping stuff going on. I mean if you wanted bikes/terminators/tanks as troop choices go play an army that allready does. Don't expect the army you have to give you all of these options so you can do what you want. That's the whole point of the Diversity between races. I don't want every race to be able to do everything. Each race should have it's own unique aspects and FOC builds that go beyond wargear and fluff.

Hicks
21-01-2012, 16:57
I don't mind heroes, some are really great and not too over the top like Yarrick. Then you have Draigo who makes you wish 40K was a grim grim grim dark game of nameless goons fighting each other.

Especially for marines, I have hated every single new hero in the latest batch of codices.

Vipoid
21-01-2012, 17:16
Plus i don't agree with this FOC swapping stuff going on. I mean if you wanted bikes/terminators/tanks as troop choices go play an army that allready does. Don't expect the army you have to give you all of these options so you can do what you want. That's the whole point of the Diversity between races. I don't want every race to be able to do everything. Each race should have it's own unique aspects and FOC builds that go beyond wargear and fluff.

I too get fed up with FoC swapping - especially when it's tied to a specific SC. And especially especially when the moved unit has been rather dubiously costed. As an example: Purifiers are undercosted even as elites, and so being able to take them as troops in your army is just ridiculous.

To be honest, the only FoC swaps I don't mind are those of the Warboss and Big Mek in the Ork codex. Firstly, because they can be done with or without special characters. Secondly, because they only move 1 unit to troops. Your warboss lets you take a *single* nob unit as troops. If you want another nob unit as troops, you'd better take another warboss.

logan054
21-01-2012, 17:23
Yea, the good guys are the ones who snap open nuns above their heads and bath in their holy blood before going to war right?

Oh right them guys, I regularly do that when I'm at church! that and exterminate anyone who I find to be different!


What's wrong with making up your own awesome to lead your army?

Well cos then you can't use a army of purifiers or a army of Paladins, what game are you playing, funhammer?


I too get fed up with FoC swapping - especially when it's tied to a specific SC. And especially especially when the moved unit has been rather dubiously costed. As an example: Purifiers are undercosted even as elites, and so being able to take them as troops in your army is just ridiculous.

I love them, they are so fun :rolleyes: I just love how my Grey knights can take the most abusive units and then make them troops! its just so much fun for whole family

luchog
21-01-2012, 17:37
It takes a bit of effort and creativity. Also you can't buy the nifty superpowers of the SCs.

Personally, I'd prefer, if SCs were just example builds on the character templates :)
That would be the ideal. Stick with the standard HQ options, but give a good selection of special rules and HQ-only wargear that they can take. That would allow for a wide range of flavourful and distinctive SCs. I don't even mind the potential for Mary Sue SC builds if they're costed appropriately. After all, if you've sunk 800 points of a 2000 point list into one character, all you're going to have is one really expensive fire magnet that will be very lucky to survive 2 turns, let alone 3.


Plus i don't agree with this FOC swapping stuff going on. I mean if you wanted bikes/terminators/tanks as troop choices go play an army that allready does. Don't expect the army you have to give you all of these options so you can do what you want. That's the whole point of the Diversity between races. I don't want every race to be able to do everything. Each race should have it's own unique aspects and FOC builds that go beyond wargear and fluff.
I don't think the "Take X Elite/FA as Troops" is a bad thing, as long as it has reasonable limitations -- for example, the way I would word it is "X unit can be taken as Troops, as long as no other Troop choices are taken". Sure, you can take Terminators/Destroyers/Incubi/Nobz/XV8s/Swooping Hawks as troops; but you'll pay for it by having much smaller and more expensive scoring units, and having to be very clever with your Elite/FA/Heavy choices to make up for the more limited, specialized roles the troop choice will play.

Noobie2k7
21-01-2012, 18:09
People only ever take them as troops anyway? How many purifier/Deathwing/Draigo-wing lists do you see where the people run anything other than what that FOC swap gives them? Tbh the old 0-1 thing needs to come back in force. Where have you been my old balancing friend?

logan054
21-01-2012, 18:34
It would also help if they priced said units correctly, upgrades on purifers are just to damn cheap Paladins are just so damn good, I don't know why any GK player would use normal termies over paladins, the 15pts is worth the extra WS, extra weapon slot and extra power alone, let alone the extra wound.

Noobie2k7
21-01-2012, 19:01
It would also help if they priced said units correctly, upgrades on purifers are just to damn cheap Paladins are just so damn good, I don't know why any GK player would use normal termies over paladins, the 15pts is worth the extra WS, extra weapon slot and extra power alone, let alone the extra wound.
Answer is they don't. It's all paladins/Purifiers. There is no reason to run anything else. (other than the obvious psyfle dreads)

logan054
21-01-2012, 19:09
Well I use strikes so :p people bitch about them enough, i would dread to think what they would say if I upgraded them to purifiers :(

Vipoid
21-01-2012, 19:24
Well I use strikes so :p people bitch about them enough, i would dread to think what they would say if I upgraded them to purifiers :(

Well, if it was me, I imagine it would depend on what army I was using:

Necrons - Probably a sarcastic 'Whoopee!'

Tyranids - I probably wouldn't say anything. I might, however, make a sound like a badger that's just had its tail caught in a car door.

Noobie2k7
21-01-2012, 19:42
Well, if it was me, I imagine it would depend on what army I was using:

Necrons - Probably a sarcastic 'Whoopee!'

Tyranids - I probably wouldn't say anything. I might, however, make a sound like a badger that's just had its tail caught in a car door. Now that i would like to hear. DO IT!!! I do think it's funny how popular purifier lists are when in the fluff the grey knights only have like 50 of them at a time in total.

I have been thinking of collecting grey knights just so i could have a small campaign against my friend who has daemons.

logan054
21-01-2012, 22:16
Tyranids - I probably wouldn't say anything. I might, however, make a sound like a badger that's just had its tail caught in a car door.

You just made a game against nids sound appealing ;)

JManJump
21-01-2012, 23:41
"The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed."



This is why I play

Vaktathi
22-01-2012, 01:11
I really miss the darker feel of older works. I enjoy the grimdark aspect of 40k far more than the "invincible hero" stuff that is pretty much just the same guy copy/pasted into a new model and the ever-increasing ridiculousness of feats. Lysander is a good example of hero creep. He started as a basic Sergeant with the Bolter drill rule who replaced a squad sergeant. Now he's a terminator armored behemoth who's as hardy as Abaddon (lower T, but better invul and can't hurt himself) and much tougher than many long established heroes like Logan Grimnar, and his background got super derpy, escaping from an Iron Warriors fortress all by his naked one-sy returning and proving pure through long rituals and then going back and taking out the Iron Warriors fortress like it was nothing. That sorta stuff makes it hard to take characters seriously, and it's been getting progressively worse, especially with all the hubbub surrounding the Grey Knights codex.

I liked Marines a lot more as the "Cleanse/Purge/Kill" dudes, who fought out of hatred, contempt and disgust at their foes than out of an indignation/"righteous" fury type deal. They seemed cooler when they were the tech-y looking guys with lots of wires, pipes, blades and chains, as opposed to the dudes festooned in bling with gratuitious wreaths/feathers/etc and increasingly knightly looking pristine armor and all the "for gloriously glorious honorable honor of the glorious honor!" thing that they've been doing lately. A great example is the Chaplain. Where once they had "Litanies of Hate", they now have "Liturgies of Battle". The thing they've been doing lately with Space Marines reeks of pride and arrogance, something Space Marines are not supposed to embrace. They've gone overboard on the "Heroic" thing and, as others have noted, forgotten about the games introduction and it's motto where it basically states that the only thing keeping humanity alive is uncountable numbers of armies and the sacrifice of billions.


For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of Manking by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls die every day, for whom blood is drunk and flesh is eaten. Human blood and human flesh - the stuff of which the Imperium is made.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of those times. It is a universe you can live in today - if you dare - for this is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort or hope. If you want to take part in the adventure then prepare yourself now. Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods.

But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed


In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only War



DARK MILLENIUM
For 10,000 years, the galaxy spanning Imperium of Mankind has endured, surviving disasters, heresies and invasions from alien races intent on the extinction of humanity. The tide of the Emperor's enemies is held back by the vigilance of the Imperial fleets and the weapons of humanity's armies. Millions of soldiers fight over a thousand worlds against every conceivable type of foe: from the all-consuming Hive Fleets of the Tyranids and the rampaging invasion of the warmongering Orks to rebellion and insurrection from within

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions, it is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of those times.


This is something that I feel the current crop of writers has forgotten, despite it pretty much being the very first stuff you read when you open the book and at the start of the rulebook lore section. The codex's fail to reflect this as they properly should, especially with many of the Space Marine chapters (those guys who supposedly are Fear incarnate and the Angels of Death and all that) are being written to portray them as pretty ok and often reasonable dudes, some even attempting to create and perpetuate hope and apparently somehow, despite being trained and experienced only in war, are given governance over more and more systems and planets to somehow preserve stability (which makes little sense, would you turn over a national government to a handful of Navy Seals or SAS commando's to run? probably not)

There is no reason or common humanity, there is no progress, there is no hope, there is only War.


It's not only Space Marines that are suffering this, they're just the most apparent and high profile works of this edition. Look at the Tyranids, before where we had a faceless blob, with the occasional special mutant, we now have actual full blown individualistic Characters. Necrons are in a similar situation, and also have some fairly derpy "I'm so amazing and great!" characters like the Stormlord (though at least his thing with the Orks is somewhat funny :p).

DietDolphin
22-01-2012, 01:45
......

I agree with almost everything you said. The only thing is I don't like this Carrion Lord direction they have taken, GW might have well said "hes dead folks". I liked it more when the Emperor was portrayed as in more of a deep coma with grievous wounds.

To me, it seems like its gone from "humans and marines desperately struggling to survive, with a sliver of hope the Emperor might one day awake" to "The Emperors dead, but who cares because the marines are kicking ass and taking names, did we ever really need him? hahaha!"

Firaxin
22-01-2012, 03:50
Are we speaking primarily fluff or tabletop? If fluff, that's never going to change until we get a crop of new writers in.

Tabletop? Well here's the issue there: The scale doesn't jive. 40k's too small for it to make sense to have warmasters, ethereals, autarchs, colonels, main battle tanks, aircraft, or monstrous creatures on the table, let alone multiple of them. But it's also too big for it to make sense as an infiltration mission, a desperate last stand, or any similar small-scale operation worth generating attachment to individual characters or giving them names. This is why the Specialist Games, like Epic, BFG, Kill Team, Inquisitor, or the latest FFG RPG series are more satisfying to play.

I'm all for being able to field a chapter master who can deck a lone Carnifex at the expense of sweat and not blood... but let there be a dozen carnifexes on the board and a handful of bio-titans to that 1 chapter master.

Vaktathi
22-01-2012, 04:33
I agree with almost everything you said. The only thing is I don't like this Carrion Lord direction they have takenThat particular bit actually has been part of the first page intro thing since Rogue Trader.

DietDolphin
22-01-2012, 06:03
That particular bit actually has been part of the first page intro thing since Rogue Trader.

I was always under the impression they simply meant he couldn't do anything, not that he was literally dead. I read it as more of chaos point of view of him being nothing more than a joke. Maybe i did just interpret it wrong, but i thought that it used to be a little more vague than "hes dead, end of". The art work of him in the rulebook as a skeleton doesn't leave much room for debate, which annoyed me but if thats how its always been and there has never been grey areas then my bad, look whose the goose....

Vaktathi
22-01-2012, 06:08
Agreed, I do wish they'd bring more of the interaction between his ethereal self and the universe back, along with Gork and Mork, it'd help make them a little more "real" as currently the way the game refers to them it's basically as if they're talking about a modern religion from an academic perspective and not actually real/alive anymore, as opposed to entities that in the game universe are very real and do interact with their believers as they were in RT/2E. But the phrase at least was always there, though never meant to be taken that he's totally dead.

DietDolphin
22-01-2012, 06:33
Another thing I would like to see make a comeback in the mysteriousness and vagueness of everything.

Take the Alpha legion for example, they are meant to be the personification of secretive and mysterious. Before, no one knew why they sided with Horus or their current motives. Then they put out Legion, and while its a well written book, I don't like it because it takes away the alpha legions main thing, their mysteriousness. Personally I would have preferred that no HH book was done on the Alpha Legion and they had just remained as side characters in other books with no clear reason given for their betrayal, but that may just be me.

Now-a-days it seems mystery is the Grey Knights having a box with who knows what in it. Unlike the alpha legion in the past, you can't really tease people or give hint at what might be in the box, so the story goes nowhere.

ForgottenLore
22-01-2012, 07:10
Personally I would have preferred that no HH book was done on the Alpha Legion
No, they should have done an Alpha Legion book, but it should have been an anthology of short stories, all of which blatantly contradicted each other.

Vaktathi
22-01-2012, 07:41
Much of the HH series as a whole, while mostly well written and decent fiction, has unfortunately taken a lot of the mysterie and vagueness that made the period so interesting, and the AL book, while a decent read, definitely basically "spoiled" the Alpha Legion for me in many ways. Though that's another thread altogether :p

TheDoctor
22-01-2012, 08:01
This is why I really like the dark angels codex. The special characters aren't over the top.
-Belial and Ghaz meet, Belial gets his ass handed to him, and spends the rest of the campaign coordinating troops rather than fighting. It also says he won Piscinia through his tactical abilities- he can't "asses the battlefield and how to win in a glance" he just used tactics to deploy his dudes where needed.
-Both Belial's and Sammael's fluff describes the way they ascended- with the previous master dying. Belial, Sammael, and all the other SC's will die. The fluff mentions numerous previous masters of the deathwing and ravenwing, so yes, my dudes may be "heroic", but they are just good at strategy, personal combat (but they can't just troll through armies), and they will die. For to be a man is to be amongst billions.

Oh, and the fact that I still have Litanies of HATE!!!

kardar233
22-01-2012, 11:25
I always dig this thing out when these discussions start, but I liked writing it, so there. :p


There is no worth of the individual. You could be Count Leon Heinrich von Trumpador the Seventeenth, the greatest warrior to come out of Mordia's training academies, but that won't stop you from having your torso evaporated by some untrained idiot waving his gun over his head. There is no "Hero Immunity"; just because you're the main character it doesn't mean that you suddenly become invulnerable to everything short of shurikens and lightning. In a fight between a character and five faceless mooks, you bet on the faceless mooks. No matter how cool, awesome or well-trained you are, you can and will still die to the unnamed, faceless masses. Because there are more of them.

Zoom out and look at the themes of the setting:
The Imperium: Mankind is its own worst enemy. We see the depths to which humanity will sink to ensure its survival. These used to be purely pragmatic decisions, but now they've been calcified into religious doctrines for a church that preaches death without mercy or quarter to anything else simply because they are different. Worlds are destroyed offhandedly, because of a hint of taint. Sometimes they are destroyed for no reason, because of clerical error. Said copyist (or whatever) will be punished by superiors, but not because of the planet. Nobody cares.
Chaos Daemons: Inside every human are the seeds for mankind's destruction. The Chaos Gods are fueled by the most basic emotions of humankind. They don't even care that their daemons kill humans, and neither do the daemons, as they are only the avatars of base instincts. They are a force of nature, and Humanity has the bad luck to be the meat for the slavering wolves.
The Lost and the Damned: Humanity sows the seeds of its own defeat. These are the people who have been spurned by the Imperium, often for spurious reasons and have struggled to survive without its infrastructure. Often, these are the most relatable characters: Abbadon the Despoiler started off as a Well Intentioned Extremist, driven to Chaos because of the perfidy of the Imperium. Now, the Imperium makes itself more and more of a horrible place just to stave these people off for a few more years.
The Tyranid: Everything is equal once destroyed. The Tyranids are an unstoppable force; if you win, you win for a little while. Minutes, hours, days if you're lucky, but they will be back, and you will die. The Battle for Macragge was a defeat, but that was the light tap before the sledgehammer blow. It may be in some time, but sooner or later every planet will be overrun and stripped clean. Tyranids are the inevitability of death for anything. Anything will eventually be overrun by waves of chitin and stripped clean.

And so on. This was 40K for me. The uselessness of individuality in an uncaring universe, and the impending doom for all.

Mat Ward (and others, but I'm singling him out here) change this paradigm in favour of powerful heroes, incredible feats and the like. Individuals are once again powerful due to their status, and a victory is a victory, not a minor setback. I don't like this because it ruins the feel of impending doom that I loved from the universe. Why worry about the Traitor Legions if you can station Marneus Calgar's Ultramarines there and stave them off? The significance of Cadia (and Armageddon, for that matter) was a Verdun-like bastion that had to be held, but was an immense drain on manpower and resources that starved the other parts of the Imperium. If single powerful characters (like Creed) can defeat these opponents through their own merits, it ruins the "grim darkness" of the setting.

logan054
22-01-2012, 11:32
Much of the HH series as a whole, while mostly well written and decent fiction, has unfortunately taken a lot of the mysterie and vagueness that made the period so interesting, and the AL book, while a decent read, definitely basically "spoiled" the Alpha Legion for me in many ways. Though that's another thread altogether :p

Thats Why I wont read them, I think I liked about 40k was you didn't know what happened and it was all myth and legend, the black library books set in the HH just take this away, fact is the truth will never be as good as the fantasy you in-vision.