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View Full Version : Zero and Five against Skaven with my O&G



Blackstaff
16-01-2012, 04:40
As the title says I am losing to Skaven pretty badly.

Here is my current 2500 pt list.

1 Doom Divers
2 Pump Wagons w/flappas and one with spiky roller
Flappas ignore dangerous terrain unless ending their move in the terrain
Mangler Squig


2 Spear Chukkas
Orc Boar Chariot w/scythed wheels
6 Trolls

30 Black Orcs with full command and banner of eternal flame 390pts



30 Savage Orc Big Uns w/full command and extra hand weapon
55 Night Goblins with spears, full command, netter and 3 fanatic






Characters
Black Orc Warbosswith crown of command
leadership 9 stubborn
and talisman of endurance 5+ ward
Leading the savage orc biguns

Lvl 2 Savage Orc Shaman with shrunken head
in the savage orc unit


Black Orc Big Boss Battle Standard
w/armour of silvered steel
leading the black orcs

I am likely taking out the two spear chukkas. I pretty much own everything except squig hoppers and herders. So I can build a pretty versatile list.

I was deploying my pump wagons and boar chariot in between my units and back behind them slightly. This way they can threaten the charge but also hard to charge them since they are crammed in between the units.

Every game I generally see a bell, the warp cannon, doom wheel, that GOD DAMN hell pit (which out of 4 games has come back to life after I killed it?!?!?) two units of 100 slaves and a level 4 wizard. Also likely to see brass orb and doom rocket every game. My opponnent will use the storm banner at the beginning of every game as well.

Thanks for the help from someone who is tired of losing.

Best
The Staff

tmarichards
16-01-2012, 05:28
Taking out the Spear Chukkas would be a good start.

As a general rule, that massive night goblin will not really do anything. If you do want to run a big night goblin unit, give them bows and boost them up to 80 to 100, then put a BSB in there with the poison banner, as well as a Black Orc to stop them mucking around. With nets, they're pretty decent in combat as well as shooting.

If you're struggling with the abomb, your best bet is to kill it at range, so work your list towards this a bit more. Bumping up to 2 Manglers, 2 Doom Divers and adding 2 Rock Lobbas will help a lot against the Hellpit (it can only pass so many regen saves, and the Storm Banner won't last forever...), as well as helping out your list overall. Taking Black Orcs with the flaming banner won't do a great deal against it unfortunately, as it'll do a huge amount of damage to them before they get to swing back at it- they may well kill it, but they'll be heavily weakened in the process of doing so.

I'd also suggest changing the Pump Wagons to have +1 D6 move, it just makes them a bit more dangerous.

If the Cannon is giving you some problems, adding in a couple of units of wolf riders will not only give you some redirectors but will also give you a way to try and get to the cannon without diverting shooting to do so.

Rosstifer
16-01-2012, 05:29
I'd grab another Mangler, and preferably another Doom Diver, and a Rock Lobber. Black Orcs counter the Abom? Not the best way, as they die to it pretty quick. Just one Flaming wound on it and it can't get back up though. Also, take a Level 4.

Skaven are always going to be hard for Orcs and Goblins.

Take some more Warmachines, sit at the back of the board, and shoot the crap out of him. Try 90ish Night Goblin Bowmen with the Banner that gives them poison.

I've heard that works pretty well.

EDIT - LOL! Just realised I wrote pretty much the same thing as tmarichards. Great minds think alike eh?

Grovel
16-01-2012, 05:33
Two units of 100 slaves...

Only way around that is to take out the general & BSB before they hit combat.

Tossing in more Rock Lobbas & Doom Divers might be the only way to go. Moving the flaming banner to the BSB and lining up the savage big uns & black orcs against the hell pit should make it go away. Just make sure you get one or the other into combat with it, and have your BSB jump into that unit to make sure it doesnt regen.

The bearded one
16-01-2012, 05:33
2 units of 100 slaves? that's pretty sick.

However if you flank Skaven with enough ranks to disrupt the skaven ranks (in other words, a mere 2 ranks, so even 10 infantry would do it (using more is obviously advised)), they cannot use their 'strenght in numbers' rule and get a leadership of 7 max, which isn't much to go on.

Also if a skaven general dies, the rest of the army generally disintigrates in like 1-2 rounds. I've seen it before..

it was bloody hilarious.

Duke Ramulots
16-01-2012, 05:33
You have like 400 points to spend, Id start there :)

Rosstifer
16-01-2012, 05:42
Just noticed the "2 units of 100 Slaves". And Skaven players wonder why everyone complains about them :rolleyes:

Urgat
16-01-2012, 07:09
Didn't have time to think upon it, but looking at your list, 3 fanatics against skavens? Pointless. Save 75 pts there. I'd give the flaming banner to a BSB in a unit of cavalry with a nasty melee character to take out the abomb. That or the spider banner in a unit of archers. Work wonders, especially with the poison curse.

Jind_Singh
16-01-2012, 07:49
Your army is very much an elite army - would be great vs elite armies but vs the hordes of the skaven.....

tough call!

There are also a lot of points blown on stuff that doesn't come in too handy:

Black Orc leaders
2 extra fanatics
10 extra black orcs
some of the wagon upgrades
Trolls
1 pump wagon

Fight fire with fire in this case - as much as I don't like to tailor against lists we have to sometimes do what needs to be done!

I would suggest a plan to take out his elements one by one...

Slaves

For e.g. 50 Night Gobbos with h/w and shield, netters, big boss or warboss with some weapons will allow them to tie down slaves for AGES - they will even win combats and force the skaven to make ld rolls. Take 2 units to count the slaves - OR at least one unit

The slaves either need to be hit from the front by Night Gobbos or by something to the flanks so they lose on combat res.

Hellpit

This guy is just a nasty thing to take down - period. I've looked at different ways - what works best for me is pumping it full of poison - and thankfully gobbos excel at this! Goblin magic is fantastic as they have the spider buff spell and also the spider banner!!!

I put the gobbo bsb in a unit of gobbos with bows/shields/command and watch them go! they will come in handy vs skaven in a fight and they do a splendid job of making monsters into pin cushions. Sadly their range is small so it means you won't kill the beast out right but try to do your best!

Other options are a flaming banner and stick him in a unit of arrer boyz - try to inflict one wound on the beast and then hit it with every war machine you got.

But it's tough call as the enemy has that blasted standard which will put shooting into a mess!

My arachnarok and giant will tag team a single hell pit but even then i dont' like to do that as it's 500pts to tackle half of that - and it's 50:50!!

My overall strategy for something I can't deal with is to simply ignore it - I'll throw the occasional shot at it and try to block it or hold it back - and deal with the rest of the army quick smart!

Best way to do this - against skaven with hellpits I do the spell that reduces movement/initiative - I had the stupid hell pit move 1D6 a turn and when I did hit it with my unit it was slower than me - giving me a chance to wreck it in combat!!!

Magic

A single orc level 2 won't cut it - ever! A single level 4 gobbo will help you out BIG TIME! Large template curse of the bad moon EATS units of crappy slaves. Magic missile helps whittle T3 units down. Spider spell helps get super poison on units. Hex spell lowers the high initiative values of skaven units and ensures you get good chance to swing the odds your way. Big moon spell is great - basic spell with a flank charge or rear charge works wonders - especially when hitting them with a giant spider on a flank!

You needs a gobbo level 4 - I prefer the risk and take a night goblin for his mushroom dice!

Snagla Grobspit

I don't use special characters much - but one I love is the spider rider hero! His ability to make his unit ambush is custom made to kill chunks of skaven! A nice fat unit of 12-14 spiders, 2 ranks, come out and shot their bows.

Then they rear charge a unit of rats to destroy their rank bonus/strength in numbers while you hit more units to the front - sides.

On top of that the mental anguish the skaven player gets with units like this on flanks - it's no wonder their thinking becomes unfocused!

Fighting steadfast

So they have units of 100? They have horde rule? They have steadfast for years on years?

NOOOOOOO!!! Your better at fighting - and a good fight is determined by knowing WERE to fight...

Stick a unit in a wood and have them come to you - while in any terrain feature no units get steadfast - all the slaves in the world mean didly poo against trees!!

Large units are problems in themselves - only so many places to deploy them on the table so without even any models going down I get a pretty good idea of were the enemy is deploying. I will then take the fight to them by making sure they are hampered by terrain as much as possible - by knowing were the enemy is going before a game starts is half the game - as it'll allow you to deploy in a fashion that will force them to play to your strengths.

Flank charges are always going to be crucial - so I normally deploy slightly off center to the enemy main line. But I don't concentrate my army on a single flank - I'll have my expendables (squigs, some chariots, giant) on the other flank - these units are too good to be ignored so the enemy player either slows his advance down to has to split units off to go tackle my throw away flank.

Obviously killing enemy general/bsb is golden so a frontal charge by the big spider works wonders - the spider is custom made to kill characters of all shapes and sizes!

My spider will do a frontal assault and pump all it's attacks on the general. The gobbos and stomp hit rank and file - I might even win the combat - but to be safe my BSB/Warboss are within 12" to help it stick around with it's stubborn leadership test.

Then next round I kill the bsb and then after the unit - works everytime! (kinda!).

So lots of options to tackle the horrid ratmen!

Crovax20
16-01-2012, 09:38
Derped, thought of ruby ring of ruin but then realized he gets regen saves back in the shooting phase :(

Damocles8
16-01-2012, 14:47
can night goblins be given a magic standard aside from the BSB?

Urgat
16-01-2012, 14:59
Nope, no goblin unit has access to magic standards.

mrtn
16-01-2012, 16:22
I'm not a goblin expert, but I thought just as Jind that one unit of goblins for each slave unit would occupy them nicely.

The bearded one
16-01-2012, 16:55
goblins cost more than slaves.

boli
16-01-2012, 17:04
Goblins cost 4 points if you get them a bow and a shield; but you'll get one turn of shooting (including storm banner) and that 5+ save once combat is joined will mean you'll kill 6 slaves for every 4 goblins

Add numbers and a standard into the equation and 80 gobbos are roughly equal to 100 slaves... sure its not perfect and skaven can shoot into this combat but should be able to break the steadfast of the slaves in short order - perhaps even the first round of combat if you get a good template weapon on the slaves in the second round.

dementian
16-01-2012, 17:20
Out of 4 games you were unable to deal a single flaming wound to the hellpit? That kinda bugs me considering my own luck with my hellpit, only passing 2/9 Regen saves (2 hellpits in that battle) and only spawning 1 rat swarm when they both died.

Borgnine
16-01-2012, 17:43
Add numbers and a standard into the equation and 80 gobbos are roughly equal to 100 slaves... sure its not perfect and skaven can shoot into this combat but should be able to break the steadfast of the slaves in short order - perhaps even the first round of combat if you get a good template weapon on the slaves in the second round.

How is a minimum of 250 points roughly equal to 200 points? 50 points isn't exactly insiginificant...

At the OP: you should check Malorian's battle reports, he smashed my skaven all the time :p

Blackstaff
16-01-2012, 18:21
WOW! Over whelming amount of HELPFUL replies. Awesome guys. Girlfriend is here at the moment and we are going out so I will give a much lengthier reply later. I do have a quick question though?

"However if you flank Skaven with enough ranks to disrupt the skaven ranks (in other words, a mere 2 ranks, so even 10 infantry would do it (using more is obviously advised)), they cannot use their 'strenght in numbers' rule and get a leadership of 7 max, which isn't much to go on."

I was FLANKING him the WHOLE game and he continued to use his strength in numbers. Are you saying he was cheating? Or uknowningly playing wrong....

Duke Ramulots
16-01-2012, 18:23
I was FLANKING him the WHOLE game and he continued to use his strength in numbers. Are you saying he was cheating? Or uknowningly playing wrong....

Most Skaven players seem wilfully ignorant to the strength in numbers rules, so it was probably a little of both.

Blackstaff
16-01-2012, 18:33
"Out of 4 games you were unable to deal a single flaming wound to the hellpit? That kinda bugs me considering my own luck with my hellpit, only passing 2/9 Regen saves (2 hellpits in that battle) and only spawning 1 rat swarm when they both died. "

Yeah I was kinda stupid here. I am kind of new to trying to play to win. I usually go for fluff and just play my fun painted stuff. Recently I have been trying to become more of a tactician. So yeah, until last game I didn't take anything with flaming attacks.

Borgnine
16-01-2012, 18:37
Most Skaven players seem wilfully ignorant to the strength in numbers rules, so it was probably a little of both.

Wasn't it pretty recently that it got faq'ed to be completely clear? I was always under the impression that they lost their SiN if they got flanked, but I thought there was some argument for it to remain even when disrupted.

But yeah, you definitely don't get SiN when disrupted now.

TheOneHawk
16-01-2012, 18:39
If you have ten or more models in his flank, he's disrupted, and will not benefit from SiN. If he doesn't believe you, get him to check his FAQ, it's right there.

Blackstaff
16-01-2012, 20:49
I sent him a text message saying he doesn't get strength in numbers when flanked by a unit of two ranks ten or more and he replied with.....

"I read that too but they changed it in the erratta. "unmodified leadership" was in question. They changed it for strength in numbers to still hold up whe"

Before I argue I want to know if I am right. I gotta get home to check the most recent faq

Urgat
16-01-2012, 20:55
The errata rules SiN out when disrupted. If he checked, he must know it, so... I don't want to judge people, but it sounds, let's say, dishonest.

source:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2120193a_Skaven_FAQ_Version_1_5_December_2011.pdf

Page 5 quote:

Q: Does a disrupted unit with the Strength In Numbers special
rule get to add its rank bonus to its Leadership? (p33)
A: No.

I mean, if he says he read the errata, then he's lying. I suggest you print said errata, read it 3 times to remember it, and bring it with you when you play him, coz the Horned Rat knows what else he remembers in a... runabout way?

Duke Ramulots
16-01-2012, 21:21
Wasn't it pretty recently that it got faq'ed to be completely clear? I was always under the impression that they lost their SiN if they got flanked, but I thought there was some argument for it to remain even when disrupted.

But yeah, you definitely don't get SiN when disrupted now.

Only people looking to "game the system" ever "interpreted" the rule that way. It was clear to anyone wanting an honest game.

amysrevenge
16-01-2012, 22:43
My advice - you need a level 4. I'd take an Orc, Jind would take a Goblin. Either way will work. You seem like more of an Orc guy than a Goblin guy to me though.

Orc magic can get you character snipes, Foot of Gork, and my favourite spell from any lore, Hand of Gork.

Otherwise, there's lots of great stuff already here.

TsukeFox
17-01-2012, 01:53
Just noticed the "2 units of 100 Slaves". And Skaven players wonder why everyone complains about them :rolleyes:

Hey buddy for the right price you too can own 100 slaves-
Skaven are always willing to tradeee for waaarrrpstonnne.

I say keep the BSB as a black orc and go cheapo on the general-

Jind_Singh
17-01-2012, 05:31
50 Common Gobbos with 3 skulkers will own 100 slaves!!!

Urgat
17-01-2012, 06:39
Flanking with 10 anything will own 100 slaves too ;)

Blackstaff
20-01-2012, 17:56
Here is my new revamped army. I didn't realize I took out my Mangler Squig. Trying to decide if I should remove a doom diver and put him back in there. I also didn't have any more room for rare choices, thus in place of my two pump wagons are now two goblin heroes. I figure they will be good to hunt lone wizards and war machines. Maybe even give some support elsewhere to main combat units.

Also, the list was bumped up to 2500. Do you guys think this is a good all around list? Suggestions? Improvements?:evilgrin:


Night Goblin Hero on cave squig
W/great weapon
Armor of Silvered Steel
2+ Armor save

Special Rule
if you role 3 sixes for movement then apply impact hits of 1.
Heros
Goblin hero on gigantic spider
w/great weapon
Light Armor
Dragon Helm
The wearer c0unts his armor save as being one point higher then normal. Also has a 2+ ward against flaming attacks.
Enchanted shield
Armor save is two points higher then normal.
Dawnstone
Re-roll failed armor saves

Special Rules
Fear, Obstacle Strider, Forest Strider, Poisoned Attacks, Wall Crawler
Black Orc Big Boss Battle Standard leading the Savage Orcs
Shield
Heavy Armor -Free
Tricksters Helm
The wearer counts his armor save as being one point higher than normal. Any successful roll to wound made against the wearer of the Trickster's Helm must be re-rolled.
3+ armor save


Lords
Night Goblin Great Shaman Lvl 4

Dispel Scroll

Black Orc Warboss leading the Black Orcs
Shield
Heavy armor free


Core
30 Savage Orc Big Uns with full command and Additional Hand Weapons

55 Night Goblins With Spears and Bows

Netters

20 Goblins with musician

Special
26 Black Orcs with Full Command

6 Trolls

Rare
Rock Lobber

2 Doom Divers

Arachnarok




2489 total

Blackstaff
20-01-2012, 18:03
On a side note, brought the most recent FAQ to my opponnents attention. He was unaware of the change in the rules. I also bought his book and started checking out some of his rules. His hellpit should not have come back to life since I killed it with fire, he also didn't test for wounds i caused against his doomwheel that was out of combat to go out of control. Just goes to show you should own other rulebooks. :P

boli
20-01-2012, 19:28
Just goes to show you should own other rulebooks. :P

Or at least read them with a pen and paper handy to jot down notes :)

Lorcryst
20-01-2012, 20:50
The new list looks better, but I don't know if Great Weapons on mounted gobboes are a good idea ...

Also, you cannot take Night Goblins with Spears AND Shortbows, that's the Common Goblins (and they are 4 pts per model with that configuration).

Never played against Skavens with my Night Goblin Horde, but that could change this year (IF my friend finally decides betwen OK, WoC or Skavens).

Feefait
20-01-2012, 21:01
I disagree that you need to buy and read the rule books of your opponents. It's perfectly cool to make mistakes. Doesn't mean he's cheating. Now the myriad of mistakes seems to look really bad on him. Still, I'd like to believe most people are honest and mistakes will be corrected over time. Sometimes oyu just get so used ot doing things one way that you never question it though. It is the responsibility of e, butthe armies owners to get those things right. I think I have had an HPA survive a battle once. At least once in every game they seem to get hit with soemthing flaming, or if not i just never roll well for them to come back. I think once i got some swarms out of one, but that was after my slaves in combined combat with it broke, exploded and killed it. lol If it's in his book he should know it, bottom line imo. Some of the 'rules' clarified by skaven faqs actually change the rules and I can't say anyone should be held responsible for those things if you haven't read them.

Peril
20-01-2012, 21:48
Also, can you sucker those slaves into some terrain? No steadfast in the woods right?

Urgat
21-01-2012, 00:18
I disagree that you need to buy and read the rule books of your opponents. It's perfectly cool to make mistakes. Doesn't mean he's cheating. Now the myriad of mistakes seems to look really bad on him. Still, I'd like to believe most people are honest and mistakes will be corrected over time. Sometimes oyu just get so used ot doing things one way that you never question it though. It is the responsibility of e, butthe armies owners to get those things right. I think I have had an HPA survive a battle once. At least once in every game they seem to get hit with soemthing flaming, or if not i just never roll well for them to come back. I think once i got some swarms out of one, but that was after my slaves in combined combat with it broke, exploded and killed it. lol If it's in his book he should know it, bottom line imo. Some of the 'rules' clarified by skaven faqs actually change the rules and I can't say anyone should be held responsible for those things if you haven't read them.

Excepted he said he read that faq and claimed it did the opposite of what it really does...

Feefait
21-01-2012, 01:13
Excepted he said he read that faq and claimed it did the opposite of what it really does...

Yea... I should have been clearer that i cannot find anything right about what the guy did. There were multiple mistakes made... to the point that it does seem intentional. i'd like to know how new he is to the game as well, or if he is trying to take advantage of an unexperienced player. I just hate the thought that someone could be blamed for not having read the faq's, errata and be considered 'cheating'. As you said though, his claim was that he HAD read them which kills all credibility. :)

Blackstaff
21-01-2012, 02:02
Yea... I should have been clearer that i cannot find anything right about what the guy did. There were multiple mistakes made... to the point that it does seem intentional. i'd like to know how new he is to the game as well, or if he is trying to take advantage of an unexperienced player. I just hate the thought that someone could be blamed for not having read the faq's, errata and be considered 'cheating'. As you said though, his claim was that he HAD read them which kills all credibility. :)

I've known the guy for a long time and we have played on and off for a long time as well. Both of us are 29 yo, we played back in late 90's early 00 but gave it up for some time while doing the college thing. In the last year he picked the game back up and I picked it up about 18 mo ago. I know he is a good guy at heart, he just likely read the rules wrong. However, he has had the tendency to read rules in to his favor in the past. I recall when he use to play brettonia they had those special rules or favors (?) that he could place on units. Again, don't quote me on that but I do recall him playing with obscenely large points over the limit with all kinds of favors (or whatever you call them) where the units were and special characters were way buffed up. We were much younger and kids then, it is reasonable for a kid to want to bend the rules in his favor. Now, as adults I would say he didn't intentionally do it. I think we can all say we have read the rules in our favor at some time or another as well, so I don't fault him too much. :P

Blackstaff
21-01-2012, 02:08
The new list looks better, but I don't know if Great Weapons on mounted gobboes are a good idea ...

Also, you cannot take Night Goblins with Spears AND Shortbows, that's the Common Goblins (and they are 4 pts per model with that configuration).

Never played against Skavens with my Night Goblin Horde, but that could change this year (IF my friend finally decides betwen OK, WoC or Skavens).

Against Skaven I like it. The dawnstone gigantic spider gobbo is so cool. He has such survivability against lower strength opponents. I question the great cave squig though... Part of the reason for the cave squig hero is because his movement is random, awesome to hunt down those war machines or stupid weapon teams the Skaven have. You can't stand and shoot at a random mover when he charges. I will admit that while it sounds like this might be good on paper it may not work out in game. I think I'll have to playtest him for a bit.

In regards to the NG not being able to take spears AND short bows, it states on the night goblin rules that "the entire unit may take spears OR replace their shields with short bows." Does this mean that I either take a spear with a shield, OR I take a bow and a shield? Or just the hand weapon and shield? I am confused here, unless I missed something in the main rule book.

Blackstaff
21-01-2012, 02:11
" Some of the 'rules' clarified by skaven faqs actually change the rules and I can't say anyone should be held responsible for those things if you haven't read them."
I agree here, in the spirit of the game it really isn't about winning. I enjoy a strategy game along with sword and sorcery stuff. So yeah, it is about fun and I am not going to get all nerd rage on him about knowing every tiny thing. Well said Feefait.

ScytheSwathe
21-01-2012, 05:43
To be honest, the skaven player is using a very 'gamey' list, masses of slaves, hellpit and doomwheel WLC and bell, then all the best magic items, especially the rocket and the storm banner. Thats why simple mistakes to his own favour make alarm bells ring to us internet folks. Its the sort of list that is used by the tournament players (who should know all the rules backwards), and the win at all cost players who see read the interwebs and want to take all the stuff branded as overpowered. That he is cheating is an obvious conclusion to jump to having never met the guy and being given the information we had.

Anyway; You will need to hone your army to near its maximum potential as he seems to have done, if you are to consistently beat him. Personally i dont think you have enough bodies on the ground to take on that skaven list.

I would lose the trolls, and assuming the forest goblin big boss is to join them, i would take him out too.
Armour of silvered steel is expensive for what it does, and i think the shield of ptolos would do the job for you anyway. Thats if you were to keep the bouncy boss at all (after all, it is cool :D)
Personally i would take out the black orc big boss from the black orc unit too. He doesnt really add much to an already fighty unit.

A unit of fast cav, ideally with bows will serve you well. It only takes one lucky bowshot to kill a weapon team, making them a real thorn in the side, and they can go war machine hunting, and rear charge stuff out of inspiring presence range, i do it all the time with expendable units, its fantastic for turning combat resolution in your favour as even a single wolf with get +3 combat res as standard charging the rear.


Cram in loads of savage orcs with the points you save.


I would also advise to take many many fanatics. As a skaven player as well as a goblin one, i can tell you that fanatics are terrifying for weapon teams (and should be aimed at them with every opportunity), dangerous to big things like hell pits, especially if you can get them to sit in between your troops and the monstrosity for maximum impact hits, And while they will do nothing but scratch slaves, they have a habit of bouncing across dense armies like skaven for much carnage.
The other alternative is to put 3 or so great weapon night goblin big bosses in the big unit of night goblins. They are cheap and add punch where its needed.

The fact is youre up against a pretty tough army, and if you are going to beat it, you will probably have to rip much of the more flavoursome units out of your army for more powerful ones. Sorry.

dagreenmoonboyz
21-01-2012, 06:00
Just a FYI you cannot take enchanted shield and the dragon helm on the same character thats two pieces of magic armor.

Lorcryst
21-01-2012, 09:59
In regards to the NG not being able to take spears AND short bows, it states on the night goblin rules that "the entire unit may take spears OR replace their shields with short bows." Does this mean that I either take a spear with a shield, OR I take a bow and a shield? Or just the hand weapon and shield? I am confused here, unless I missed something in the main rule book.

Well, the way I understand it (and also how it's played in my local GW) is that basic NGs come with Hand Weapon + Shield, and then you can replace the Hand Weapon with a Spear, OR replace the Shield with a Shortbow ... giving you three options : HW+Shield, Spear+Shield, and HW+Shortbow.

Blackstaff
21-01-2012, 15:17
Well, the way I understand it (and also how it's played in my local GW) is that basic NGs come with Hand Weapon + Shield, and then you can replace the Hand Weapon with a Spear, OR replace the Shield with a Shortbow ... giving you three options : HW+Shield, Spear+Shield, and HW+Shortbow.

Makes sense to me. I can see where I errored. Thanks.

Blackstaff
21-01-2012, 15:18
Just a FYI you cannot take enchanted shield and the dragon helm on the same character thats two pieces of magic armor.

CRAP! I really liked his build. 1+ re-rollable! Would have been awesome, too good to be true.

Blackstaff
21-01-2012, 16:05
To be honest, the skaven player is using a very 'gamey' list, masses of slaves, hellpit and doomwheel WLC and bell, then all the best magic items, especially the rocket and the storm banner. Thats why simple mistakes to his own favour make alarm bells ring to us internet folks. Its the sort of list that is used by the tournament players (who should know all the rules backwards), and the win at all cost players who see read the interwebs and want to take all the stuff branded as overpowered. That he is cheating is an obvious conclusion to jump to having never met the guy and being given the information we had.

Anyway; You will need to hone your army to near its maximum potential as he seems to have done, if you are to consistently beat him. Personally i dont think you have enough bodies on the ground to take on that skaven list.

I would lose the trolls, and assuming the forest goblin big boss is to join them, i would take him out too.
Armour of silvered steel is expensive for what it does, and i think the shield of ptolos would do the job for you anyway. Thats if you were to keep the bouncy boss at all (after all, it is cool :D)
Personally i would take out the black orc big boss from the black orc unit too. He doesnt really add much to an already fighty unit.

A unit of fast cav, ideally with bows will serve you well. It only takes one lucky bowshot to kill a weapon team, making them a real thorn in the side, and they can go war machine hunting, and rear charge stuff out of inspiring presence range, i do it all the time with expendable units, its fantastic for turning combat resolution in your favour as even a single wolf with get +3 combat res as standard charging the rear.


Cram in loads of savage orcs with the points you save.


I would also advise to take many many fanatics. As a skaven player as well as a goblin one, i can tell you that fanatics are terrifying for weapon teams (and should be aimed at them with every opportunity), dangerous to big things like hell pits, especially if you can get them to sit in between your troops and the monstrosity for maximum impact hits, And while they will do nothing but scratch slaves, they have a habit of bouncing across dense armies like skaven for much carnage.
The other alternative is to put 3 or so great weapon night goblin big bosses in the big unit of night goblins. They are cheap and add punch where its needed.

The fact is youre up against a pretty tough army, and if you are going to beat it, you will probably have to rip much of the more flavoursome units out of your army for more powerful ones. Sorry.

Okay I have read over your suggestions and I have a few things to ask....

First, I realllly don't wanna take my trolls out. They survive almost every game, primarily because of the multiple wounds and regeneration. I have terrible dice rolling skill (if that is possible) and I love that unmodified regen.

I will definitely take out my Black Orc Lord leading the black orcs, I wasn't sure about him anyway. So, that being said who is my general now? My Lvl 4 Night Gob Shaman with his awesome ld 6? BTW he will be in that 20 man goblin unit in the back of my army. So there is a new problem.

Also, since Dagreenmoonboyz brought to my attention my error of two magic armor choices not being allowed I may be taking out my gobbo hero on gigantic spider. I really liked him bc that spider is awesome for flank attacks and even without the dragon helm he still has a 2+ armor save re-rollable. I'll take out the guy on the big cave squig, he just has a straight two up armor. In place of him I can add one or two hero gobbos to my night goblin unit.


So in summary,

out goes the Black Orc Lord who was leading the BLK Orc unit

Taking the guy on the great cave squig out

Gigantic Spider Hero and trolls are up for debate :P

This is the part where I start becoming confused on what will be the best choices.

Also, keep in mind I don't own anymore then 30 savage orcs.

Best
BS