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the gribbly
17-01-2012, 21:20
As the title says do you think all marines should have the special rule ATSKNF? This is more of a game play question rather than a background one. Lately I have been thinking that non C: SM armies should not, i.e. BAs, SWs, DAs, GKs, BTs and so on. These chapters are codex divergent to greater or lesser degrees and have chapter specific benefits that in game terms make them very good already so I think that losing ATSKNF would be a fair trade off for these benefits, explained by whatever piece of fluff gw likes. Anyway what do you think?

Noobie2k7
17-01-2012, 21:24
They're still spece marines whether C: SM ones or not, so they would still have the exact same training and discipline as any other space marine. That doesn't just change between chapters.

martellus_blood
17-01-2012, 21:31
They are still marines, and they shall know no fear is really so integral to what a space marine is that you can't divorce the fluff from the gameplay. It would be like an Ork tribe who didn't want to charge into battle and attack their enemies.

The extra rules that the non codex chapters get come at the expense of many options that vanilla marines have (the characters, the units, etc) but doesn't stop them being Space Marines and the rules should reflect this.

The Marshel
17-01-2012, 22:21
It's an inbuilt trait of all space marines, part of their ridgid training.

Do some chaos space marines train new marines? If any marines would lack atsknf, it'd be those marines, but at the same time, traitor marines are so carried trying to represent them that accurately is a bit of a task

Bunnahabhain
17-01-2012, 22:47
Yes, of course. The only ones who shouldn't are those with Chaos in front of the space marine bit.

Ideally, they're all in one codex so the differences for the sake of differences/sales go away, and silly ideas like this look too silly to post...

Nurgling Chieftain
17-01-2012, 23:01
They're still spece marines whether C: SM ones or not, so they would still have the exact same training and discipline as any other space marine. That doesn't just change between chapters.I wouldn't say that about Space Wolves.

GrimZAG
18-01-2012, 00:09
I thought ATSKNF was meant to represent adherence to the Codex Astartes like many of the chapters represented in C:SM.

Korraz
18-01-2012, 00:56
And They Shall Know No Fear is an iconic part of them. It's what the Emperor himself declared. Every Marine should have it.

the gribbly
18-01-2012, 01:26
Pretty much what I expected. As one post stated if all chapters were represented in one codex I wouldn't be asking this question, however they aren't. I see chapters like BAs and SWs as being different enough to warrant their own dex and therefore divergent enough to not have blanket abilities, to me counter attack and furious charge could replace ATSKNF which would only represent vanilla marines. This would also help a little with power level between codices, which is the main idea behind my question.

Korraz- to be clear I completely agree, but I am talking about the rules which could be changed our something idk. Chaos marines are marines too yet they don't benefit from ATSKNF, just as an example.

Israfael
18-01-2012, 01:41
Chaos marines are marines too yet they don't benefit from ATSKNF, just as an example.

Why would they?

ATSKNF represents a disciplined, fighting withdrawal. Where Astartes cover the backs of their squad mates as they retreat to a better position, or escape a rout.

Whereas renegades tend to look out for themselves, sometimes going so far as to kill their fleeing brothers in the confusion - making their climb to the top, or ascension, all the quicker. Or, they're so overly aggressive / religious / insane, they just make a desperate last-stand.

Vepr
18-01-2012, 01:45
I think only the Ultra Marines should get it. The best marines, the marines all the other polluted chapters aspire to be like and wish they could be part of. The other chapters might as well be chaos compared to the boys in blue. :D

Scaryscarymushroom
18-01-2012, 05:03
ATSKNF represents a disciplined, fighting withdrawal. Where Astartes cover the backs of their squad mates as they retreat to a better position, or escape a rout.


Hardly. As far as gameplay is concerned, ATSKNF does a terrible job of representing a tactical retreat. Guardsmen make a fighting withdrawal. Marines don't withdraw; they win or they die. The only thing that ATSKNF does is make them more resilient than even fearless troops. A single space marine is worth a thousand ordinary men; especially where sweeping advance is concerned.

(Kharn would kill ten of them, then 990 would attack and inflict less than ten wounds. Then they'd fail their leadership and all 990 of them would die. Kharn is a BAMF.)

ATSKNF is a terrible rule; no space marines should have it. :shifty:

OK, so maybe that solution is a little extreme. If any of the space marines should be different than any of the others, though, it should be Grey Knights. IMO, GKs should have the following rule instead:

If a squad of grey knights would ever be eliminated by a sweeping advance, don't remove the squad. Instead, treat the combat as a draw. Grey Knights don't suffer from "no retreat" rules.

And then Grey Knights should have less heavy handed ways of compensating for their small model count. But I digress.

grey knights rock
18-01-2012, 06:02
I think only vanilla marines should have combat tactics. special characters in the vanilla dex can swap combat tactics for something else, so the other dexes should do the same.

ehlijen
18-01-2012, 06:27
Hardly. As far as gameplay is concerned, ATSKNF does a terrible job of representing a tactical retreat. Guardsmen make a fighting withdrawal. Marines don't withdraw; they win or they die. The only thing that ATSKNF does is make them more resilient than even fearless troops. A single space marine is worth a thousand ordinary men; especially where sweeping advance is concerned.


That is but one of the things ATSKNF does. It also removes the half strength restriction and makes rallying auto succeed, both very good ways to show the difference between a tactical retreat and an all out rout.

The Death of Reason
18-01-2012, 07:25
They're still spece marines whether C: SM ones or not, so they would still have the exact same training and discipline as any other space marine. That doesn't just change between chapters.

Yeah, but then they are injected with the space semen of the ancients, and their rigorius training ruined, as they are turned into rabid dogs or bloodthirsty vampires :)

AlphariusOmegon20
18-01-2012, 09:02
Yes, of course. The only ones who shouldn't are those with Chaos in front of the space marine bit.

Ideally, they're all in one codex so the differences for the sake of differences/sales go away, and silly ideas like this look too silly to post...


Why would they?

ATSKNF represents a disciplined, fighting withdrawal. Where Astartes cover the backs of their squad mates as they retreat to a better position, or escape a rout.

Whereas renegades tend to look out for themselves, sometimes going so far as to kill their fleeing brothers in the confusion - making their climb to the top, or ascension, all the quicker. Or, they're so overly aggressive / religious / insane, they just make a desperate last-stand.

I take it neither of you has read Storm of Iron then....

Israfael
18-01-2012, 09:29
I take it neither of you has read Storm of Iron then....

Do you mean like when Honsou and his squad accidentally alert the men atop the bastion, and break into an "every man for himself!" run? Then, when Honsou takes significant pleasure in the fact that Forrix's man was killed in the retreat? Yeah, nothing like I said; you're right. :rolleyes:

You cited a pretty poor example of Chaos "unity" with Storm of Iron.

Bunnahabhain
18-01-2012, 10:30
AlphariusOmegon20-
I wouldn't mind some chaos marines having ATSKNF, or an identical but differently named rule. Either those who are recent renegades, or those with good discipline.

As blanket rule for all CSM, no, but I certainly could see it for some.

Righthandedtwin
18-01-2012, 10:47
There is absoloutely no reason for CSM not top have ATSKNF :S many of them date back to the Heresy when as many recall the infamous speech


They are my space marines and they shall know no fear

Not to mention newly created CSM would see things even regular SM would get weak at the knees watching. It's a very very very silly predjudice invented to try and differentiate the SM and CSM when really it makes no sense from a lore perspective since if you are a CSM you were either created in the Crusade era so should have ATSKNF or turned renegade after the heresy so would have it anyway...OOOORRRR were created in the EoT through either cloning or whatever and would be so insane anyway that you would know no fear.

CSM definitely need something equivilant to it as it makes no sense for them not to.

artekfrost
18-01-2012, 11:24
Do you mean like when Honsou and his squad accidentally alert the men atop the bastion, and break into an "every man for himself!" run? Then, when Honsou takes significant pleasure in the fact that Forrix's man was killed in the retreat? Yeah, nothing like I said; you're right. :rolleyes:

You cited a pretty poor example of Chaos "unity" with Storm of Iron.

while I don't have my copy on hand, so I'm not sure if I'm remembering the book correctly, the every man for himself run was due to the fact that it was the best tactical decision to return with the intelligence they gathered. As to Forrix's man, he caused them to be spotted and was a symbol of Forrix's distrust, so while Honsou couldn't touch his watch-dog he could enjoy having watching him be the cause of their failure. But Honsou if I'm remembering it right ordered a charge to help save some of Kroeger's men.

Latro_
18-01-2012, 12:59
Generally in fiction the heros normally fight and win or die and the villans either beat them or run away, and then get beat the second time (Avenged) but may run away again (might come back cliff hanger) or get wiped out (the end)

ever see Aragon or Heman run away? or just stumble back then regroup and have another go?
Skeletor, saruman etc... flee flee.

this is why in general csm will never have ATSKNF and that's all there is to it.

You ofc have fearless which breaks this theme with the likes of CSM, but GW always portray those kinda units as no longer human in the sense of sentience etc, they take them from being a traditional 'equal' adversary villan and make em more animal like, like fighting something different from them. dunno if i make sense.. heh

Korraz
18-01-2012, 13:49
while I don't have my copy on hand, so I'm not sure if I'm remembering the book correctly, the every man for himself run was due to the fact that it was the best tactical decision to return with the intelligence they gathered. As to Forrix's man, he caused them to be spotted and was a symbol of Forrix's distrust, so while Honsou couldn't touch his watch-dog he could enjoy having watching him be the cause of their failure. But Honsou if I'm remembering it right ordered a charge to help save some of Kroeger's men.

While I haven't read Storm of Iron, I have read Skull Harvest. And the advise that Huron gives to Honsou at the end, regarding his servants, sums the whole matter up neatly, I think.
"Kill them when they are of no more use to you. Otherwise they will only betray you."
So, yes, while CSM might have each other's backs, and in some rare instances it's genuine, in nine of ten cases it's cold calculation, and that spikey guy behind you is just as likely to cover you as he's going to stab you in the back.

Many people forget that ATSKNF doesn't mean they do not feel fear ever. That would be Fearless. They do feel fear, in some strange, disembodied sense. Just like they feel pain. In Purging of Kallidus the Chaplain gets his arm broken, and notices it with mild interest. Yes, he feels the pain, and his suit tells him "Your arm is broken and the armor is breached", but it's just information. I think Space Marines treat fear the same way. A Blood Demon is darn scary. And the Marine knows that. But it doesn't impair him. Why? Because of his Indoctrination, his Training, his Discipline, and because he has a whole Chapter of Battle Brothers at his back on whom he can depend without a second of hesitation. (As a sidenote: I really reccoment Purging of Kallidus if you are interested in knowing what it means to be a Space Marine. I think it's the best depiction of them yet. I haven't read any other book yet that really shows what it means to be a REAL Space Marine. The book is basically the entire opposite of the typical Heroflogging Giant Schling Schlonging Fanwanking of most other Marine books.)

Chaos Space Marines on the other hand have all that thrown out of the window. They still have their training, but it doesn't really click anymore if you have to work with a couple of other maniacs. They know they are traitors. And a traitor that surrounds himself with traitors can only expect treachery. It gnaws at them. The only way to forget that is to become completely insane, i.e. fearless. It won't stop the knife at your back, but at least you can stop to think about it if your mind is filled with Bloody Blood Bloods.

Righthandedtwin
18-01-2012, 14:39
People seem to be misconstrewing ATSKNF as being a product of training/discipline and that the CSM as a result can not gain this benefit...which is false.

IA established the fearlessness of the marines as being largely due to Hypnoconditioning they undergo through thier transformation into being a marine. Discipline does not abolish the capacity for fear it merely gives you the tools with which you can deal with that fear, the same goes for training.

The CSM are equal measure subject to ATSKNF lorewise but unlike the hynoconditioning the loyalists undergo, the CSM have a combination of madness, zealotry and desensitisation to achieve the same fearlessness if not a greater degree of it. Don't forget while in war the CSM are not all mundisciplined rabble....infact very few are. By thier very nature itself they require a greater deal of discipline living beneath the Iron boot of daemons and chaos lords whom have to enforce rigid discipline to keep thier subordinates in line...even the beserkers to an extent have this.

@Latro, the bad guy good guy thing is a little muddled in 40k as you'll well know by now...look at any WBO novels the WB are shown to have endkless control, discipline and fearlessness on par with any McNeil novel character. Although if anything the SM as clear headed and sane individuals are more likely to flee from an assault so they can regroup and re-evaluate thier approach.

AlphariusOmegon20
18-01-2012, 15:02
Do you mean like when Honsou and his squad accidentally alert the men atop the bastion, and break into an "every man for himself!" run? Then, when Honsou takes significant pleasure in the fact that Forrix's man was killed in the retreat? Yeah, nothing like I said; you're right. :rolleyes:

You cited a pretty poor example of Chaos "unity" with Storm of Iron.

Other than possibly the first example you cite, there's nothing else to even suggest that the Iron Warriors are undisciplined, and even then that was a hastily planned retreat, but still a planned one, and the best tactical decision that could be made at the time.

The second example, artekfrost is correct on, it was a personal feeling about the man himself and the man's associations, and whether Honsou feared a situation or not has no bearing on it.


AlphariusOmegon20-
I wouldn't mind some chaos marines having ATSKNF, or an identical but differently named rule. Either those who are recent renegades, or those with good discipline.

As blanket rule for all CSM, no, but I certainly could see it for some.

Unfortunately, until GW comes out with said identical rule and gives it another name, ATSKNF is all we have to call it. ;)

I think a case can be made for most Chaos marines to have it, based on fluff.

AL would have it because they would not be surprised at anything, they would have well scouted what they were attacking for months.

IW would have it based on they basically wrote the book on siege warfare, they pretty much know how a siege will go. There are plenty of surprises in siege warfare, but the IW expect them and know how to react accordingly.

EC's senses are so dulled, they can't be scared of anything. They WISH they could be.

NL would have it based on they are the masters of Terror. Hard to be scared of anything when you are fear itself.

WE would have it based on they just simply don't care what it is, they just want to kill.

WB would have it because they are fanatical in their beliefs. Fanatics have no fear because they believe their Faith will protect them.

DG is DG, they have little to fear also. When you've been infected with a daemonic virus, you fear little, as you're more or less already dead.

BL is the only one I struggle with a reason to justify ATSKNF for. Possibly it could be that they are more afraid of Abbadon's wrath than anything else, but I'm not sure that would be a powerful enough motivator to justify giving them ATSKNF.

Scaryscarymushroom
18-01-2012, 16:15
That is but one of the things ATSKNF does. It also removes the half strength restriction and makes rallying auto succeed, both very good ways to show the difference between a tactical retreat and an all out rout.

Acutally I think my previous point sums this up. The way I see it, if it were a real retreat, the marines would leave the battlefield. The fact that they can regroup below half strength and that they rally automatically results in two possibilities: They win or they die. A marine that falls back from combat in turn 2 will either shoot or assault in turn 3. Rinse and repeat until they're all dead.

Here's what eliminating the 1/2 strength restriction and auto-rallying looks like to me:

Battle Brother Osiris is a space marine. Osiris is in a combat squad. Lots of daemons manifest in front of his squad. Osiris shoots them. No one in the combat squad inflicts serious damage. The Daemons charge, killing Osiris' four battle bretheren. Osiris takes a leadership test and fails it. This represents him having an outbreak of common sense. He falls back. But rather than to keep going, he then turns around at the next possible moment, screaming FOR THE EMPEROR as he martyrs himself in a sea of daemons.

Daemons amass and eventually destroy the world.

Whereas with any other race... say IG...

Conscript Jimmy sees daemons manifest in front of his squad. Lots of them. He knows he'll probably die. But he holds his ground and fires his lasgun because fighting against impossible odds is what the Imperial Guard does. The daemons kill several members of his squad. Say... 20. Jimmy's even hit a few times, but his armor miraculously saves him. Jimmy has an outbreak of common sense. He flees. He runs as fast as his little conscript feet can take him; firing over his shoulder when he thinks there's something to hit. Jimmy leaves the battlefield.

Jimmy goes and tells his superiors about what happened. They flog him, extinguish their cigarettes on him, shoot his feet, waterboard him for cowardice, and then send out 10,000,000 troops and 500,000 tanks. When the problem is handled, Jimmy gets a medal for his "scouting efforts." Yay Jimmy. The world is saved from Daemons.

Of course, this assumes that battle brother Osiris and the conscripts can get away at all; which is addressed in my previous post.



Generally in fiction the heros normally fight and win or die and the villans either beat them or run away, and then get beat the second time (Avenged) but may run away again (might come back cliff hanger) or get wiped out (the end)

ever see Aragorn or Heman run away? or just stumble back then regroup and have another go?
Skeletor, saruman etc... flee flee.

this is why in general csm will never have ATSKNF and that's all there is to it.


I get your point. It makes me sad. 40k doesn't appeal to me because it's a comic book or an epic poem, myth or a legend... It appeals to me because it's gritty, dismal, grim and depressing. At least, it used to be. Everything has been getting Wardified lately.

It's supposed to be a vague representation of an age of war. As in, stuck in the trenches until your feet are rotting and people are dying everywhere and life is utter hell; where often times people are envious of the departed because at least their suffering is over. They don't need to deal with the torture of the Dark Eldar; the iron hand of the Imperium, the blind injustice (justice?) of the Inquisition, the tyranid menace, the taint of daemons, the savagery of the Kroot, the brutality of the Orks, the haunting notion that the necrons 'will be back,' etc etc. They're dead.

I don't think it's supposed to represent an age of heroes and conquest, where one space marine chapter tries to one-up another one by setting new records in the name of sport. Killing more Eldar Avatars in a single day, for example.

But again, I digress.


Tut tut! Shape up, my boy. One has to expect these kinds of casualties when on an Eldar Safari. But there are more important things to do than stay alive. The lion bares it's teeth, they say, and all you need to do is snarl back, because you're untouchable! Osiris, lad... You truly are the emperor's finest.

Sir_Turalyon
18-01-2012, 23:22
Purging of Calidus makes a good point which I think sums up ATSKNF as "mission comes first" attitude taken to extreme:



Like his battle-brothers, seregant saw himself as military asset, and preservation of his life was a tactical objective


Difference in CSM or renegades is that they reverted to thinking of themselves as persons rather than weapons of the Emperor. Indeed, in order to abandon dogma and turn from the Emperor, they had to consider themselves people able to think for themselves and make decisions about their lives.

Arijharn
19-01-2012, 08:57
Yes, of course. The only ones who shouldn't are those with Chaos in front of the space marine bit.

Ideally, they're all in one codex so the differences for the sake of differences/sales go away, and silly ideas like this look too silly to post...

I really disagree if only because Chaos Space Marines have to deal with the whole warp (and thus; routinely interact with the horrors there) that it seems strange to me that they would actually know fear.

Korraz
19-01-2012, 11:40
Only the "newbies", to say so. The Cult Marines are, hah, Fearless. Although Chosen (and by that I mean Terminators too. Seriously, what's up with that?) should be Fearless too.
But let's be honest. It's not like Morale is really important in 40k. Usually, if you get hit by something that will cause a Morale Check, you'll most likely be wiped anyway.

GrimZAG
19-01-2012, 11:47
Perhaps this quality of Space Marines is best described as loyalty - to their squad, company, chapter and also the emperor. They won't flee because the pride of their unit/battle company is at stake.

Chaos Marines on the other hand have no such ideals and will flee when necessary.

It doesn't seem to be a matter of fear or discipline but rather of pride.

artekfrost
20-01-2012, 12:45
Perhaps this quality of Space Marines is best described as loyalty - to their squad, company, chapter and also the emperor. They won't flee because the pride of their unit/battle company is at stake.

Chaos Marines on the other hand have no such ideals and will flee when necessary.

It doesn't seem to be a matter of fear or discipline but rather of pride.

to continue the Storm of Iron example, Honsou was always described as still believing in Horus' cause to forge a greater imperium after 10,000 years if one chaos marine can still be loyal to that ideal why can't others?

Chapters Unwritten
20-01-2012, 14:26
I feel like Chaos should have a very similar, but offensively-geared rule, that governs their morale. I wouldn't mind seeing "Death to the False Emperor" in the Legions book...

Vaktathi
20-01-2012, 14:58
Perhaps this quality of Space Marines is best described as loyalty - to their squad, company, chapter and also the emperor. They won't flee because the pride of their unit/battle company is at stake.

Chaos Marines on the other hand have no such ideals and will flee when necessary.

It doesn't seem to be a matter of fear or discipline but rather of pride.Not quite true. Many Chaos Space Marines retain a great deal of discipline and loyalty. Sure it might be twisted and insane, but there nonetheless. There's a huge difference between small opportunistic warbands of individualistic renegade space marines and say, the hosts of the Word Bearers with their religious fervor and continuance of a mostly unified Legion.

Dux
20-01-2012, 16:37
OK, so maybe that solution is a little extreme. If any of the space marines should be different than any of the others, though, it should be Grey Knights. IMO, GKs should have the following rule instead:

If a squad of grey knights would ever be eliminated by a sweeping advance, don't remove the squad. Instead, treat the combat as a draw. Grey Knights don't suffer from "no retreat" rules.

If you go with fluff, GKs should have this rule:
"When the last Grey Knight in your army is killed or removed vom play, declare "Exterminatus" to represent the fleet bombing the planet. You win the game."

But that would be :cheese:, wouldn't it.
GK are fine as they are. They don't need any help.

@topic:
In my opinion every space marine should have ATSKNF. Im not sure with the chaos ones, but they should have something similar at least.

The Death of Reason
20-01-2012, 19:20
ATSKNF is really a superfluous rule. We already have the Ld stat to determine morale, and having an army basically unaffected by morale is just boring :)

Korraz
20-01-2012, 19:57
Nearly all of the armies are basically unaffected by morale. They might as well cut it out with the LD going around right now.

Freman Bloodglaive
20-01-2012, 21:28
I think that ATSKNF is the big difference between Chaos Marines and Loyalists. Chaos Marines basically pay the same as Loyalists for their units (more if they start buying squad upgrades) 180 for missile launcher, flamer and Aspiring Champion versus 170 for the Tactical Squad but if you break the Chaos squad is gone, while the Loyalists can recover and keep fighting.

We know that's because the Chaos 'dex is well overpriced for what you get, but an expensive unit that really has nothing to protect it from the unlucky dice roll is a gamble. If you buy Icon of Chaos Glory you're paying even more points for the squad, and then you can lose the model to an unlucky wound allocation. The old Mark of Chaos Undivided, which was free, was a much better option.

GrimZAG
21-01-2012, 13:45
Not quite true. Many Chaos Space Marines retain a great deal of discipline and loyalty. Sure it might be twisted and insane, but there nonetheless. There's a huge difference between small opportunistic warbands of individualistic renegade space marines and say, the hosts of the Word Bearers with their religious fervor and continuance of a mostly unified Legion.

Good Call. I was thinking of your typical renegade chaos marines in my description. I was also reading about Roman legions the other day and it seems that the Space Marines are really similar to those. The individual men were broken down psychologically so their only loyalty was to the others in their squad/company or so forth. Comparing this to your typical Germanic warrior who is a fiercely individual warrior is where I was drawing the comparison from.

I thought all the legions were disbanded though? Not Word Bearers? They've always struck me as a Fearless type force.