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Xavier
22-04-2006, 19:52
Having taken last year off from the Warhammer tournament scene for University exams and other trivial life issues.. I decided it was about time I got back into it and what better way than to start local. A few days later a thread appears and what do you know, there is a tournament happening in a month in Striling.. a mere 60 odd miles from my home.. So the decision is made.. But what too take, before this I had decided to attend the Conflict doubles tournament so my Conflict army seemed like a good place to start, Wood Elves it was.

Reading through the players pack I quickly realised this would be a slightly different format to the normal conflict and grand tournaments, with 2 2250 point games and 1 1000 point game and using 3 different scenarios, meeting engagement, pitched battle and flank attack, makes a difference to always playing pitched battle. So my 1000 point list was already decided, I would just use the Conflict army we had come up with. As for the 2250, well it seemed obvious I needed decent magic defence, what with all the Skaven armys running around at the moment, as you will see I think I managed to get quite a nice mix of units and they all worked rather well together as you will see.

So onto the day, got up at 6am for a 7.59am train.. and what do you know.. I miss it.. How I am not entirely sure.. So I quickly check the time table and muttering some choice words about Scotrail's lack of trains to Glasgow going direct from Abderdeen, I get on a train to Dundee and just by the skin of my teeth catch the connecting train to Glasgow. So somewhere between Dundee and Stirling I fall asleep, what can I say trains are boring.. So I wake up while we are sitting in Stirlings train station, divine intervention must have been.. (The food trolley thing ran over my foot). Now the challenge of getting to the venue.. Ochil community hall,(Ochil, read like Ock Hill) once the taxi driver finally understood where I wanted to go off we went.. Well after quater of an hour driving round stirling (He got lost..) he decides to check his map and realises his foolishness.. Long story short I arrive just in time to register. So..

Game 1, Pitched Battle;
Khorne you say, all the chosen warriors in the world.. (2 units) and some knights.., a spawn, some dogs, some marauders and a chariot.. Well long story short the Treeman was the man of the match, killing the remainder of the knights with help from the wild riders and then holding up 2 Units of Chosen Khorne Warriors complete with the standard heroes leading them (I love my regenerating treeman) leaving them wide open to the wild riders, war dancers and dryads. On the far flank a unit of dryads takes care of the chariot and on the other side the Glade Guard and Glade riders deal with the spawn and marauders.

So yea, turn 5 and its over, 3250 is my victory points total, and 0 is my opponents.. (2250 points, 4 table quaters, his general, his battle standard and 4 captured banners)

Game 2, Flank Attack;
Lizardmen.. with ogres and a Second generation slann, 2 units of saurus on foot with mark of Sotek, a unit of saurus cavalry, 2 skink priests a unit of 4 lead belchers some skinks and 2 jungle swarms.. He was the attacker in this flank attack and so kept his skinks and iron guts in reserve. Well what can I say, I thought i'd try and be clever and kill his jungle swarms and make 3 units take panic tests.. well I almost managed, 3 wounds left.. and my shooting was all gone :( Units moved spells were cast, Slann miscast a few times, I laughed.. then with great amusement I charged the warhawks into his Slann (his slann with the 3 magic missles) and held him up in combat for the rest of the game (and managed to take no less than 5 wounds off him) I kept winning by outnumbering so I tried to make the warhawks cause fear, but it was not to be.. eventually after running circles round the rest of his army I sent a unit of war dancers to finish off the frog, (who had miscast flaming sword twice..) and promptly dispatched him netting me no less than 980ish victory points in turn 5 and the game. In turn 4 while I remember the reserves turned up, the treeman stranglerooted the skinks and the noble and glade guard killed the ogres (Hail of Doom is so good) I had actually detailed my Glade Riders and Noble to sit at the back and watch until his reserves came on then kill them, I had put my units more than 18" on so the leadbelchers did nothing when they turned up.

So 3450 this time though, (2250, 4 table quaters, slann dying (200) general dying, battle standard dying and 4 standards captured.) So not bad the armys working well managed to fend off no less than 11 power dice plus the 2nd gen's extra dice.

Game 3, Meeting Engagement;
This is where it gets interesting, 1000 points this time round, all mounted High Elf army.. :cries: Well, lets see here, Noble (BSB, more on this later) 3 Units of 5 Silver Helms (Only 3+ saves on these) a unit of 5 Dragon Princes with the banner of ellyrion, 2 great eagles and 3 Chariots.. Now, this is all well and good, but I well get back to the low point of the tournament in a bit. So first turn, having never played an army as fast as me I was on my back foot, a mistake I think I have over come now. Anyway, meeting engagement played hell on my normal reactive deployment so most of my units were really out of place, but I tried my best to salvage it. In the end the glade guard had died to a unit of Silver Helms, the Wild Riders and Warhawks had killed off a unit of SIlver Helms and a few other minor things, now, the Dragon Princes charge the wild riders and some poor ward saves and regenerations later and one is left. Now heres where it gets to the low point I was talking about. The noble in the unit turns out to be a battle standard bearer with the Battle Banner (+D6 Combat res) this proves a sticking point, normally a battle standard bearer cannot be the armys general (Exception of the Slann) But with high elfs he can be the army's general if the Intrigue at the Court RANDOMLY makes him the general, other wise he isn't allowed to be the general. So with this army, when rolling for the intrigue on any result apart from a 1 his army is illegal. Now the tournament runners had asked us to send our lists to be checked over and they then ran this through army builder too check for errors. On this assumption they ruled that the army was still legal, now of course I was not exactly going to argue with the Judges, but they did say this was a loop hole which would be closed for next year and my opponent did say he was in the wrong and forefited and all props too him for this. However at the end of the day this left a very dry taste in ones mouth, so anyway, we carried on playing and added up victory points at the end, I don't have the exact scores but it was a draw. However since he had forefited it was a massacre to me.

Now with this high elf army as with most armys I place I tend to add up points costs and things in my head to gauge what I need to kill for victory points etc and kept coming up with the list as was being used, being roughly 100 points over. Now with all this about the battle standard bearer etc I didn't bother to ask about his list however. This is what I get..

Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Battle Banner, Heavy Armour, Elven Steed = 216
3 Units of 5 Silver Helms with Shields (It was either Shields or Heavy Armour, 3+ same points so ill assume it was shields) = 105 / 315
5 Dragon Princes, Champion Standard Bearer with the banner of Elyrion (I cant remember this banners cost, so ill assume its 10pts) = 176
3 Tirranoc Chariots = 255
2 Great Eagles = 100

That comes out as 1062, this is exactly as I remember the list and I have taken things as basic as possible, while adding what magic items and characters in units that had an effect on the game. But I digress, this could be perfectly innocent and as so often happens when people try and remake a list they've played against I may have added somthing wrong, but as I said tt was taken at face value.

So at the end of the day, I won best General and I tied for first place and won on victory points, somthing I feel really bad about, because had my third game actually been played out properly and not with my opponent giving me the massacre, he would have won and I would have been runner up.

Now don't get me wrong about any of this, I know this was just a friendly tournament and I did just enter it for a laugh and to get back into the tournament scene. However like I said the last game was a real low point and had me feeling slighly disheartened. I know this kind of thing happens at tournaments all the time, most recently the carnage had a similar mishap which was sorted out. I also want to say that this should in no way reflect the people who put so much effort into running this tournament, I myself have helped run a few and I know exactly how much effort goes into somthing like this and with only one small mishap it reflects a very bad light on the tournament, this is not what happened here, as was said the judges ruled the way they were meant too and my opponent did what he felt was right after realising his mistake. The only person I really feel sorry for is the runner up who in all rights would have probably won it had our game been played out properly, then again had our game been played with a legal army list it could have played out differently.

So anyway, all in all it was alot of fun if slightly hectic in the early morning.. and I would definetly recomend to anyone to attend this annual tournament, especially if you like the light hearted atmosphere that surrounded it, for the most part.

Xavier
22-04-2006, 19:52
My lists;

2250 points;

Spell Weaver
Level 4
Wand of Wych Elm
Dispel Scroll

Branchwraith
Level 1
Cluster of Radiants
Paegant of Shrikes

Noble
Battle Standard Bearer
Befudlement of Mischiefs

Noble
Elven Steed
Hail of Doom Arrow
Shield
Spear

10 x Glade Guard
10 x Glade Guard
8 x Dryads
9 x Dryads

5 x Glade Riders
Command

3 x Warhawk Riders

6 x War Dancers
Musician

6 x War Dancers
Musician

5 x Wild Riders
Command
War Banner

Treeman
5 x Way Watchers

/2250

1000 points;

Spell Singer
Level 2

5 x Glade Riders
Command

3 x Warhawk Riders
9 x Dryads

Noble
Elven Steed
Hail of Doom Arrow
Spear
Shield
Light Armour

5 x Wild Riders
Command

9 x Dryads
10 x Glade Guard

/999

Frodo34x
22-04-2006, 20:49
You were at the Stirling Wargamers tourney?

Brush your teeth
22-04-2006, 20:50
it was a good day, i was the altdorf empire player.

it was a shame about the high elf army but it still got a better placing that me (i managed to score 59 out of 90(?) mostly from the army composition, painting and sportsman ship) im still waiting to see the placings list to find my position

solid defeat by another empire army

massacared by some skaven (with hundreds of powerdice i wasnt prepared for, 2 level 2's couldnt cut it)

then i massacared some dwarfs, mainly doe to the order of march leaving the thunderers and organ gun behind a hill.

overall a good day with some beutiful armies, i hope to see you at the next one to hold your title.

also feel free to come and visit us on the forums http://purecheese.proboards1.com/index.cgi?

EDIT: just realised your already posting on the forums

Xavier
22-04-2006, 20:57
Frodo34x;
Yes I was, were you?


Brush your teeth;
Yea, you were playing Paul in the first game.

Frodo34x
22-04-2006, 21:07
No. Me and all the other Magic players from Stirling were at an M:tG event.

Steel_Legion
23-04-2006, 09:48
Curses! So close to winning! 2nd place for me and my Brets. I think we both got 74points? but you won on VPs. Well having only played 5 games with my Brets, and in the tournameny getting 2 Massacres (beat the club chairman in 2 turns!) and a solid victory, i think ill be sticking to this army as it seems to work well like your wood elves

Xavier
23-04-2006, 10:12
Those were the only games i'd used my 2250 at, (and the first time i'd actually played more than 2000 points in years) so I think it worked out ok.

I dont know exactly how many pts we both had, but yea I won on vitory points, 3250, 3450, then what, 1600? dunno what I got for the third since he conceded.

Nautilus
23-04-2006, 11:03
Hi,
Paul here (just repeating a post from our forums)

I took a Talabecland Empire army to the tournament on saturday. First off - Thanks for coming throgh Xavier, it was good to meet you and we were all pleased that we got a good showing from the Falkirk lads too.

I had a good time at the tourney and I was really pleased that the games around me all seemed to be played out in a good friendly fashion. Personally I had three really good games against three good opponents, which is what its all about at the end of the day.

Game one was a random draw and I came up against one of our regular club members Altdorf force. He was a little unlucky with his dice during the first couple of turns though it was a good game with lots of combat all over the table and I managed to get a solid victory there. That saw me on table 5 for the next game and up against a Dark Elf player. He was a good guy also and we had an enjoyable game. The first couple of turns went well for me and I managed to take apart most of his army, though it started to look like his dragon might take me out on its own for a while. I managed to blast the dragon away in the end and scored myself a good massacre.

So things were looking pretty hopeful after two of the three games. I'd got a couple of decent results and I'd managed to avoid coming up against any of the real hard looking armies that might have scuppered my plans early on. That put me on table two and I'm told that there was only a few points between the top four at that time. The last game was a 1000pt game against Brets and it was all over in two turns. One turn for him to cross the table, and another turn to sweep my so-called army aside like he was swatting a fly. Everything I had broke and legged it as fast as they could. I got zero VPs in that game and say me drop clean out of contention. Gavin (steel Legion here on Warseer) went on to pick up runner-up just behind Xavier so well done to them both.

I got a wee consolation prize in Best Army so I was very happy with that.

Steel_Legion
23-04-2006, 11:27
Well since this seems to be a trend i shall follow, well the kings finest knights marched out alongside lord theodoric, backed by local malitia, first game was against a dark elf force, i thought i was going to loose after 2 turns of manoverings and getting shot of our horses, but turn 3 the cavelry smashed into his front ranks and ran them all down, the pegasus taking out the pesky archers and balistae, in the end a massacre as i only lost 1 unit of knights and a damsel.
"nd game was a lot harder, against a lizardmen army with no less than about 80skink bowmen, stegadon and kroxigors with more magic than you can shake a skink at! Half my force were arriving on turn 3+ so for 3 turns i just had to get into position and hope not to loose too many, by the time they did arrive all i had was my lord and a knight, so they were most welcome! my lord and his knight companion hewed down skink after skink and the pegasus and errant knights took out the kroxigors and stegadon. a solid victory after what seemed like a hopeless defeat on turn 3.
Game 3 rocked! as paul said, i spent one turn moving, and the 2nd charging and panic caused most his army to flee, sorry! Massacre

Jeff MacLeod
23-04-2006, 13:00
Hi Andy, Jeff here - the notorious opponent in the final game.

This is a hard one to respond to. Partly I'd like to forget it, just like I did in the game - hence the forfeit. It was meant to be a very casual tournie and not worth all this fuss! I'd also like to apologise for stuffing up the army list, but on the other hand set the record straight on a couple of other things.

The day in all was a great success, although I'm afraid my stuff up may have affected the final standings a little. I'm not sure what the best solution was there.

Just a few things.

1/ Andy is right about the BSB/general. In 10 years of warhammer I've used a BSB about 3 or 4 times, and never as a general. Nor have I used other armies much so have not been aquainted with the rules particularly well. When I threw my list together I read the bit about intrigue at court, which says the BSB can be randomly selected as general but not otherwise. I thought if I take only one character (the BSB)then it will automatically be selected as the general, hence the BSB would be both. I didn't realise this was illegal, submitted my army list on time to the judges, they didn't pick up on it either, and when it came up and became a sticking point I offered to forfeit.

For what it's worth I actually thought my list was a bit rubbish, having no magic or shooting, and had been wondering whether I could withdraw it and submit a more competitive one but ever got around to it. If I had the problems would never have happened.

2/ Andy is partly right about my army list.
The submitted list is 999pts. I just ran it through AB3 again, and the points came out the same. So unless AB3.1 is wrong on points...
Commander, Pure Heart, BSB, dragon armour, battle banner, barded steed, 198 pts
3 x 5 silver helms with shields, 315 pts
1 x 5 DPs with champion and standard, Ellyrion Banner 181 pts
3 x chariots 255pts
1 grat eagle 50pts
999pts

What I did though was field 2 eagles. Another error, no excuse. I had been using 2 eagles for the previous 2 games and when I fielded the 1000 pt army I placed them both down without checking. I was too casual this late in the day, didn't double check with the list, but knew that "eagles" were in and placed them both. So what I fielded was 1049, not through bad math but through being overcasual. I'm not sure why you got 1062... if that's a difference b/w adding scores from the book or AB, or you added a standard or something in that wasn't there.

I was wrong and forfeited as a result. But although I was in the wrong the problems with the army did not affect the game much. I effectively fielded 945 pts for the 1000pt game (as we discounted the BSB/battle banner upgrade and I had granted myself a free eagle!).

As far as I can figure now the result was:

Andy's kills:

2 eagles 100pts
2 x 5 silver helms 210 pts,
1 chariot 85 pts
1/2 the dragon princes 90pts
No standards, no general, and table quarters I can't remember - my DP's were in one, not sure if it was contested, and we contested the other I between the dryads and the silver helms/chariots)
Total 485 pts.

I think I killed - but you can confirm this:
10 archers
8 dryads (unbelievable tough buggars just didn't want to die!)
5 wild riders with standard (?champion)
3 warhawks (they had a terrible time despite charging a single chariot in the flank!)
commander/general with steed, light armour, ?shield and spear or great weapon, and hail of doom (+ HoH?)
can't remember about the glade riders - you mentioned that they died but I thought they were still alive and it was they who contested the table quarter with the dragon princes.)
Without the glade riders that's about 605 pts plus 200 for general and 1 standard.

Working the other way you had most of aunit of dryads left, your level 2 mage, and I thought 4 of the glade riders were still alive.

That's up by 320 pts which for 1000pt game is a solid victory my way.

The worst of it all was that because of our close game Gavin would have leapfrogged us both for the final prize, as Paul took a backhander;) to give him a massacre in the last game on table 2. To Andy's credit he recognised this and I would like to also.

But as it stands Andy was the winner, and I think he thoroughly deserved it. He slaughtered the nasty Slann Mage lizzie army which is a decent feat - but probably more in the capabilities of WE than most armies. I had been pondering how my HE would have been able to put a dent in them. And Khorne he must have dragged all over the place and massacred, and his VP count was still the highest overall by about 700, mainly scored from his massive wins in the first 2 games.

Well done. I'm glad you came down and I hope to see you on a Thursday night some time at teh club - perhaps we can have another elf vs elf match-up! But this time a bit bigger and a bit more legal.

For any others reading my 2 bobs worth on my other games.

Game 1 Stuart's skaven - I still feel bad about all your miscasts - if it's possible to feel sorry for skaven!!;). But if it's any consolation I've had the same experience with HE on occasion, hence my army is much lighter in magic than it could be. When the magic comes off it's unstoppable, but when it all goes wrong... Massacre to me. Hope to see you again stuart, you took it really well even with all those 1's. Happy to give you a rematch any time!

Game 2 Neil from GW Falkirk's WE - great game - one of the toughest I've played - very close despite the result. He's an excellent general and all those wardancers were giving my dragon Hell. He's massacred me on occasion so I owed him a bit of payback - result 8pts short of a massacre! Oh my spleen.

Overall a big win for the club and a nice local tournie with 16 enthusiastic and sportsmanlike players. Look forward to it again.

PS Thanks to the organisers for all their hard work.

Xavier
23-04-2006, 14:14
For me this whole experience has really just shown me how unreliable army builder really is. For quite a number of points.

Firstly, the Battle Standard Bearer as the general not being highlighted as an error. Secondly the fact that he has a magic banner and also an honour, which isn't allowed.

Like I said, I completely understand you aren't at fault for its mistakes and its natural to assume that your list would be correct since your not being told otherwise and the lists were checked by the organisers, though again this was using the unreliable army builder..

On a side note I got 1062 because I didn't add the points quite right, I had the noble as 75 points (forgetting that he isn't a wood elf and is 5 points cheaper) and was counting the Battle Banner as 100 not 80. So only the extra eagle through off my count.

In the actual game things happened which of course in hind sight and with the proper facts can be commented on but at the same time could have played out differently.

I had killed an eagle in turn one with shooting and then had to detail my glade riders to killing the other eagle which took them 3 turns, where as if I hadn't had to do this I would have used them to Double Charge your dragon princes and not used my warhawks to instead double charge the Silver Helms. I also wouldn't have needed to take my Noble out of the Glade Riders which would have meant he was safer than running around on his own which eventually lead to him being killed. The glade riders would then have been behind your army rear charging/shooting/march blocking etc, so that would have made a very big difference. By the same token had my glade guard not needed to shoot the eagle on that side of the board, they could have shot at the silver helms, potentially killing more of them so that the eventual charge and stand and shoot could have killed them all causing a panic test in the chariot.

Also at the time through my own ignorance in not asking what your noble was armed with weapon wise would have prevented this game from even happening. For one thing I would have alerted you to this before the game started or if the judges had ruled you could use it I would have played very differently and set my warhawks into the rear of the dragon princes rather than the silver helms to kill off your noble instead. This would have got me 500 odd victory points in one swoop (pure of heart, battle standard, general plus his 200 odd points cost) but like I said, hindsight it a wonderful thing. But yea, with your lists errors in mind(Pure of Heart, the Battle Standard General and the extra Great Eagle) the game would have been changed to a 15/0 massacre result anyway, so it is of little relevance now.

Just to clear up the victory points and things like that,

Your right in what I killed and you killed;
a Noble
3 Warhawks
9 Dryads
10 Glade Guard
plus a few models which still left their units above half strength.

Your are right aswell, Gavin would probably have won the tournament had none of these errors came up with the end result I won by massacre. Then again the game could have gone alot differently if some of my other units were freed up from Eagle killing.

In all as I have said the tournament was really alot of fun and with the far less stressful enviroment of GT's and other big tournaments was alot easier to relax into. My only critisim would have been the way the army lists were checked, but I do also understand time constraints, judges not having all the army books, not having the patience to read over every rule to find faults in peoples armys, that being said and as I have said already, this just shows that army builder is really not a benchmark for rules and what is legal, if people use army builder use your army book and make sure army builder hasn't missed some minor rule, because at bigger tournaments this kind of mistake, assuming it was the last game and all games had been using the same list would have seen all Jeff's game results turned into massacre defeats.

Jeff MacLeod
23-04-2006, 15:04
True enough about the extra eagle, but as we played it you were facing 945 pts including that extra eagle, so had all been legal and balanced you would have had to deal with the extra eagle, a 2+ save on all the helms and a tougher noble to boot. But all these are "what if's" and of little concern now.

You're right of course about army builder, but in it's defence it doesn't claim to be perfect, flaws are well recognised, and at the WPS and GW GT's you know not to rely on them anyway. It's my fault I didn't check it; in addition I didn't rely totally on army builder as my printer is out of action, so I typed it into a word document and emailed it to the organisers. So although I put it together on army builder it was trasncribed to a word document which always leaves room for error. I should have done it the old fashioned way, got my army book out and double-checked everything, but having had the biggest exam in my life the day before the tournie it really was a side issue for me.

Anyway, well done again. Glad you'll be coming down more often and look forward to a rematch.

Steel_Legion
25-04-2006, 15:17
you're all just lucky you didn't encouter me! muhahah! well paul did, sorry old chap!