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thesheriff
18-01-2012, 19:28
Ok, Iíve posted this in the GW General Discussion, but it is intentionally related to a 40k army idea. But this may digress into different GW Game systems (you'll know what i mean) :)

Iíve been doing allot of A-level History coursework for German Studies (i am a Uk resident, BTW).

Now, Although I think we can all agree that the Nazis were bad people, the Wehrmacht, or the German army, is something I have always wanted to represent in a Imperial Guard army.

Now, Iím not thinking the Einsatzgruppen (Behind enemy lines, Partisan and Jew hunters), Iím not thinking SS. I might even be thinking more WWI.

But, would you have an issue playing an Imperial Guard army, with these (http://www.maxmini.eu/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=109) heads?

I am probably thinking more Rommel-esque (who was defiantly not a Nazi), but on the eastern front, as opposed to Africa. Ie; A general who is a Soldier of Germany, not a National Socialist. Probably gonna have a converted-Creed as my commander (to represent tactical acumen), lots of veteran squads in chimeras, some Leman Russ' (of the Demolisher, Regular and Plasma varieties, as there my favourite). And I am also tempted to model up some bikes w/ sidecars as either sentinels or rough riders :p

I will NOT use Swastikas incidentally, but as a side note, how would anyone feel about this?

I mean, personally, I donít think its that bad (other wise i wouldnít be doing it). And its not as bad as the KKK Night goblin army I envisaged once. But, what do you think?

Also, as another side note, has anyone got any armies that have been banned/removed from tournaments/GCN's/GW's for the inappropriateness?

thesheriff

StratManKudzu
18-01-2012, 19:45
My only solid opinion is this: swastikas should ONLY be used in modeling where historically accurate; when creating era specific historical recreations.
-
Furthermore those heads are no issue, but I'd suggest an army inspired by the WWI-WII era German armies and not just a port to 40k.

thesheriff
18-01-2012, 19:58
My only solid opinion is this: swastikas should ONLY be used in modeling where historically accurate; when creating era specific historical recreations.
-
Furthermore those heads are no issue, but I'd suggest an army inspired by the WWI-WII era German armies and not just a port to 40k.

Thats what I though about the swastikas.

What do you mean by the 2nd bit however?

Coasty
18-01-2012, 19:59
Hmmmm. German army IG?

Well, the original Orks were quite blatantly based on the German army and the Steel Legion wear Second World War German paratrooper helmets and German webbing, so...

I think nearly everyone would be alright playing against IG with what are, quite clearly from the helmets, First World War German heads. If not then they're just being needlessly touchy.

EDIT: I think he means 'make it an identifiably Imperial Guard army with German influences, rather than just a Heer Infanterie Regiment IN SPAAAAACE!'.

xxRavenxx
18-01-2012, 20:08
I take offence to the "Hugh Laurie does psychotropic drugs" heads... :P

The Ape
18-01-2012, 20:13
There seems to be a similar post every few months.

My personal opinion is if you want to play a German themed army then crack on. As with anything, there is a line. If you think what you are doing is risquť, then it probably is.

Ozorik
18-01-2012, 20:21
Given that I have three Heer armies for Flames of War I fail to see the problem.
Those heads are also closer to WWI Germans than WWII.

The Swastika is far (far) older then the German nation never mind National Socialism so its not that bad but it is probably right on the cusp of bad taste. You could use this (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=hakaristi&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=TPI&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=np&biw=1680&bih=910&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=RO3oOC-XljkUeM:&imgrefurl=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Suomalainen_hakaristi.png&docid=3RKvhTqyFh5fOM&imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Suomalainen_hakaristi.png&w=400&h=368&ei=hCkXT5XkKYiv8gPJioH6Ag&zoom=1) which also has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Germany but still looks similar.

Sunshine and Night
18-01-2012, 20:28
*whispers*Krieg!

Coasty
18-01-2012, 20:39
Given that I have three Heer armies for Flames of War I fail to see the problem.

Heh, I did think about mentioning my ongoing project to collect enough models to represent every unit of a Panzer division (not all at once!)...

thesheriff
18-01-2012, 20:49
Given that I have three Heer armies for Flames of War I fail to see the problem.
Those heads are also closer to WWI Germans than WWII.

The Swastika is far (far) older then the German nation never mind National Socialism so its not that bad but it is probably right on the cusp of bad taste. You could use this (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=hakaristi&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=TPI&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=np&biw=1680&bih=910&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=RO3oOC-XljkUeM:&imgrefurl=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Suomalainen_hakaristi.png&docid=3RKvhTqyFh5fOM&imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Suomalainen_hakaristi.png&w=400&h=368&ei=hCkXT5XkKYiv8gPJioH6Ag&zoom=1) which also has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Germany but still looks similar.

The Swastika being an ancient symbol for "the unbeatable" is definatly not a nazi-original (if you know what i mean.)

Ill probably use iron-crosses, but not swastikas.....

carlisimo
18-01-2012, 21:27
To me it says you’re not really interested in the 40k universe and would be happier playing Flames of War.

Nothing wrong with those heads, though.

the_gobbo_king
18-01-2012, 21:36
I would stay away from any iconography that suggests a theme from WWII Germany. In my mind, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but I know a few that might get a bit touchy if they saw an army that clearly had references to Germany in WWII.


In Summary:
- The heads are fine enough to pass as tasteful, in fact, they look rather good.
- The swatstika should not be used in the hobby unless it's a historical model.
- The Iron Cross (a symbol of German Might in WWII), is borderline with me, so I'd stick away from it.
- Don't use red as a spot colour in the army (Especially on the shoulderpads). That reference is almost as bad as the swatstika in my opinion.
- Stay away from a dark grey colour scheme, for the reason above. Better off going for a lesser known brown colour scheme than one so widely known.

For a symbol, I guess you could go with a stylised talon, or lightning bolt, which has no relation to unfortunate historical subjects.

My $0.02au.

Scott.

stroller
18-01-2012, 21:38
I'm going to disagree with carlisimo. I don't like the heads. But if you do, use them.

As noted above, swastikas should only appear on historical models (in my opinion).

I have Imperial Guard with alternative heads (pig iron) and guns (probably also pig iron) to look like hellghast from killzone. I don't take those into store or warhammer world, as a significant amount of the model is not gw, and I am not unhappy with that particular house rule.

I do wonder if you are trying to persuade yourself that it's ok or have us persuade you (in which case it isn't).

PS If you want to do "heroic" german, try afrika korps lookalikes?

Zaustus
18-01-2012, 21:47
Huh. I can't imagine being so touchy about it. I don't play 40k, but if I did I certainly wouldn't have any problem playing against a Wehrmacht-inspired IG force. I wouldn't even mind an SS-themed army, because I don't understand being offended by miniatures. I would avoid the swastika itself, not because it offends me but because it sets your theme too rigidly. If you use the swastika, then instead of being Nazi-inspired, they're just Nazis. And I'm pretty sure the Nazis never fought space marines, so that would just make it weird for me. But using some other geometric symbol I'd have no problem with.

Also, I don't see how anyone at all could have a problem with a WWI German theme. The German Empire was no better and no worse than any of the other nations involved in that war, but the taint of National Socialism and the atrocities it committed has spilled over and stained the image of the German army 25 years earlier. The Iron Cross has been a symbol of German power for much longer than the Nazis were ever around, so I'd feel free to use that with clear conscience.

Caiphas Cain
18-01-2012, 21:52
The heads shouldn't be a problem. If someone does get offended because you based your army off of a historical one, that is entirely their problem.

Morkash
18-01-2012, 21:53
A few good points were already raised. I'd have no problems with it either, contrary to most Germans I do not seem to suffer from "Reichs-paranoia" where everything Nazi-related is either blissfully ignored or leads to collective shame.

There are limits of course, the swatstika would be one, the Iron Cross another.
You already said you wouldn't want to go with the SS theme, which is very good. I remember seeing pictures of an IG with SS Totenkopf flags, swatstikas etc etc. This could certainly affront people, and would just look misplaced in 40k from an aestetic PoV.

Overall I like your idea as it sounds carefully constructed, so why not? Death Korps of Krieg go in a similar direction, 40k-ed of course, but the influence is clear nevertheless...and until now I did not hear anyone complaining about them because they are historically offensive.

AndrewGPaul
18-01-2012, 22:05
I've seen a Space Marine army painted up in SS pea-dot camo, which looked pretty cool. As for those Maxmini heads, I'd be against them because they look daft, not because of anything else. :)

movin_pics
18-01-2012, 22:57
Rome,egypt,the crusades,the soviet army (and not doubt others) have been used before terrible things have happend in history. I would not worry about it provided you stay clear of the swatstika all in all i agree with morkash (i kinda get the "reichs-paranoia" thing hell in england our kids dont even get taught about the empire)

xxRavenxx
18-01-2012, 23:10
the Iron Cross another.

The black templar chapter logo is a no-go? :P Damn...

In england the iron cross is barely recognised by most people, let alone it causing offence. Flames of war use it constantly (while avoiding other iconography like the plague).

ehlijen
19-01-2012, 00:51
The thing is, but putting significant effort into a Nazi/SS/whatever army, you proffess a certain admiration for it.

Sure, the same applies to other horrible historic armies, but few of those are associated with contemporary neo-extremist groups to the level Nazis are.

Make a Wehrmacht army if you like, but if you include Nazi symbology, be prepared to be thought of as a neonazi and treated as such.

The OPs suggestiong is fine, as are the heads (if their style is ok with you. I find them...goofy). But the whole 'people shouldn't get offended by miniatures' argument ignores that it's not the miniatures that would be offending; it's the thought that someone likes the Nazis enough to paint their symbols on his or her expensive GW plastic crack.

Angelwing
19-01-2012, 01:11
Heer themed armies are fine, but Nazi themed is not. So no swastikas in a white circle on a red background.

Hicks
19-01-2012, 01:21
An IG army inspired by the looks of a real world historical army is ok in my book and I am a very anti-nazi stuff kinda person.

I can reckon that the WW2 Germans had some very striking uniforms, even if those who were nazis were evil persons.

As long as you don't use the nazi iconography, I think this would be a cool project. After all, every army, in every time period has done something horrible, so modelling an army after WW2 German uniforms is no worse than modelling an army after Vietnam era USA (as long as you don't mock the victims, which using the swastika would definitely be).

Also, I would highly that you come up with fluff that has few, or no relations with WW2 events.

Caiphas Cain
19-01-2012, 01:55
The thing is, but putting significant effort into a Nazi/SS/whatever army, you proffess a certain admiration for it.

Sure, the same applies to other horrible historic armies, but few of those are associated with contemporary neo-extremist groups to the level Nazis are.

Make a Wehrmacht army if you like, but if you include Nazi symbology, be prepared to be thought of as a neonazi and treated as such.

The OPs suggestiong is fine, as are the heads (if their style is ok with you. I find them...goofy). But the whole 'people shouldn't get offended by miniatures' argument ignores that it's not the miniatures that would be offending; it's the thought that someone likes the Nazis enough to paint their symbols on his or her expensive GW plastic crack.

So people who paint swastikas on their historical ww2 Germans automatically condones or even supports their ideology? So by that logic, anyone that paints terrorists for ultra modern wargaming are pro-terrorism?

Spectrar Ghost
19-01-2012, 02:05
Aviod using iconography that was specifically associated with the Nazis (the Iron Cross, both the templar cross the Heer used and the Luftwaffe version predate the Nazis) and I don't think many people, if any, will have a problem. I certainly wouldn't; Wargaming is a study in military history at its heart. Even Sci-Fi or Fantasy gaming will be informed by real world military tactics.

Hicks
19-01-2012, 02:34
So people who paint swastikas on their historical ww2 Germans automatically condones or even supports their ideology? So by that logic, anyone that paints terrorists for ultra modern wargaming are pro-terrorism?

It's supposed to be there on historical miniatures, because they represent actual soldiers, who actually wore it on their uniforms. Sci-Fi soldiers weren't there during WW2, so if you put swastikas on them, people will probably assume that you like nazis. It's the same thing as wearing a t-shirt with a swastika on it, I sure as hell wouldn't do it.

Luigi
19-01-2012, 04:17
To the OP: I believe you should have just used the heads and not even have posted anything here...
regarding the swastika thing well...
people tend to associate any swastika they see with the Nazi concentration camp and such ignoring the fact that actually swastikas are a symbol pretty common in oriental spiritualism and Mythology (where it usually symbolizes eternity IIRC) and should be associated with Nazi's only if the arms are pointing right (I.e it's spinning clockwise) it's not straight (only a corner is resting on the ground and not the whole arm) and it is painted on a white/red background.

Nephilim of Sin
19-01-2012, 05:40
It's supposed to be there on historical miniatures, because they represent actual soldiers, who actually wore it on their uniforms. Sci-Fi soldiers weren't there during WW2, so if you put swastikas on them, people will probably assume that you like nazis. It's the same thing as wearing a t-shirt with a swastika on it, I sure as hell wouldn't do it.

I've would never wear a Swastika shirt, but, I wouldn't have a problem facing off against Imperial Guard with them. Despite Sci-Fi soldiers supposedly not being involved in WWII (:shifty:), that doesn't mean there isn't a 'following' (NOTE: I don't mean 'fans', please understand). In the niche community of nerds that we are (generalizing here), you do see Nazis crossed over into many mediums. Nazis and Dinosaurs, Robot Hitler in Wolfenstein, countless comics, Captain America (yes, I do know his origin, but just playing Devil's Advocate, as even Iron Man went from his origin in Vietnam to 'terrorists in the Middle East'). Zombie Nazis, Sci-fi Nazis, eh, the list goes on.

Considering that, in the Warhams world, everything is supposed to be 'descended' from Earth's history, I could actually see it happening. For all we know, the poor Guard have no idea what the uniform represented, but just recognized it as a uniform. Of course, given the case of Grimdark 40K, something as bad as those atrocities seems to happen on a daily basis (NOTE: I hope it doesn't come across that I am comparing fiction and the lives of fictional soldiers to what happened, and the horror therein; just trying to keep it in that 'perspective' of just being a game).

That doesn't mean that I think everything is fare game, however. There was a 'gent' at one of my locals that converted a 40K army out of Redemptionists, to act as his KKK. Luckily, he lost once to a Salamander army, and quit (his first game there, I should add).

I also remember an auction on E-bay that was WWII specific, but had to be pulled. I would have been rather put off by them pulling it, except it was a fantasy inspired army. I believe Empire may have been the Allies, while Gobbos were the Nazis. To me, that just didn't mesh. Fantasy bears a 'slight' resemblance to our world (past or future is up for debate), but, there was really no reason to try and create a real-world influence like that. Then again, I would have been put off had it been Civil War themed, or really anything that doesn't fit Warhammer 'Fantasy'.

So yeah, while this may be in the 'far-flung future', it still has ties to Earth. A Star Wars Nazi army would make no sense (to me), but an Imperial Guard army with real-world iconography would.

Panzermike
19-01-2012, 09:31
Strange thread but interesting. For my one pennys worth, I dont see how a WW2 themed force wold be applicable to 40K and on the question of Swastikas that is even more weird. Not that I'm an expert on 40K fluff but I see no place for the Swastika or anything to do with the WW2 German units in Imperial Guard 40K.

This has been a debate in Flames of War and I suspect in most WW2 game systems and their is a universal acknowledgement, just as there is for the scale model builders, that Swastikas and other Nazi symbols are perfectly acceptable in Historical wargaming and modelling. For those that feel offended....Dont play the game, dont build WW2 models then and ....oh yes TAKE A LONG WALK OFF A SHORT PIER! or something equally diplomatic.

tu33y
19-01-2012, 09:45
each time this comes up i think:

why on earth would you want ANY even remote symbolism to the Nazi regime.

i wuld play IG with those heads but i would be making judgements about you that you might not like.

just remember the greater context around such visual cues: I am actually quite annoyed that one of the logos I chose for my army that came from the official GW transfer sheet is a slightly changed logo of the British Union of Fascists. I f i had know before I wouldnt have used it.

the Iron cross is older than the Nazis so i can deal with that.

but overt references are in my mind at least insensitive at at worst grossly offensive. and those "coalscuttle" heads count in my book as in between the two.

tu33y
19-01-2012, 09:47
Swastikas and other Nazi symbols are perfectly acceptable in Historical wargaming and modelling.

utterly correct.

and by extension that is the ONLY context they are acceptable.

Max Jet
19-01-2012, 10:21
The black templar chapter logo is a no-go? :P Damn...

The Black Templar chapter Logo is not the iron cross....


In england the iron cross is barely recognised by most people.

Iron cross

http://static.pagenstecher.de/uploads/4/47/470/4704/iron_cross.jpg

Black Templar logo

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Black-templar.png

Templar knights cross used during the third crusade

http://toutcommelesvilleespagnole.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/kt.gif


So the Allies were "Saints" right and never did or have never done anything evil.....?

Propably has a lot more to do with the ideals the symbol represents.

ehlijen
19-01-2012, 11:28
That Iron cross should be perfectly acceptable seeing as it was the official German army icon during the first world war and is today, but it wasn't during the second world war. It was featured in some ranks insignias and medals, but not as an identification icon.

That was the bar cross: http://www.seiyaku.com/images/cross/balkenkreuz01-large.png which should be used with more caution but should still draw less bad opinions than swastikas.

6mmhero
19-01-2012, 13:12
I never have a problem with German themed guard armies people really want to do that.
My Steel Legion and tanks are all based on color schemes used around 1944, mainly because they look like they make sense on Imperial Guard and are fun to paint.

I don't have a problem with things like the Iron cross being used or even certain vehicle numbers being used on tank hunters (Wittman). The only issue I have with the Iron cross being that it looks out of place on Imperial Tanks (there are plenty of divisional symbols from both the German and Allied forces that look a lot better on a Russ or Chimera) as do half tracks instead of Chimera's etc.

SunTzu
19-01-2012, 13:29
If you collect Dark Eldar, does that mean you condone torture and slavery?

If you collect a WW2 Nazi (or WW2 Nazi-themed) army, does that mean you condone the holocaust?

You might say Dark Eldar aren't real, but Nazis are, and you might say that makes a difference. OK, fair enough - but Nazis are the go-to example of evil. What about a British colonial army, as seen in the film Zulu? Most people wouldn't equate them with Nazis but they did some pretty questionable stuff. If you collect an army of those, does that mean you condone imperialism, and think white Europeans have a right to impose their rule on Africans? I don't think anyone would assume that. So why should Nazis be different after all?

You don't have to agree with the politics of an army to be able to represent it on the tabletop. Let's be clear, real-life Nazis and neo-Nazis are scum - I condemn them utterly. But the nice thing about modelling toy soldiers is that the models and the game are unrelated to the politics. Someone who collects an army of Wehrmacht or SS or even just models that look a bit like them is no more necessarily a Nazi themselves, than an Ork player necessarily has green skin and lives only to fight.

Max Jet
19-01-2012, 14:01
I utterly and completely disagree with you SunTzu and here is why.

Collecting a dark eldar army who aim to bring fear and terror onto their foes will not remind any person or a familiy member of cruel memories and losses they endured. Simple painting schemes and markings of the dark eldar bear no resemblance to any historical event, that might have a very negativ impact on a fellow watching your game, getting confronted by it in the media or anything else. It is a rootless fantasy and therefore no one will feel confronted again.

Being confronted by a fantasy army of your choice with these very historical attributes however will at least for a second draw the question to any bystander on why you choose the symbols and wether you admire them.

Now historical documentation is needed for various scientifical and political reasons. Accuracy is needed, more than the feelings of individual.

Fantasy armies with historical banners are not needed, they mereley represent your personal preferences. If it is your preference to invoke fear in your fellow gaming buddy, so be it but there is a well defined border you as a social person should not cross. This border is defined by gruesome and terrible experiences older people had to endure. It shouldn't get so far as to hinder education, but it certainly doesn't allow anyone to make it an object of personal preference and admiration.

Tayrod
19-01-2012, 14:15
That Greek article from some time back comes to mind...

I think someone on this forum has done something similar, he posted his work in a thread, and got a few angry comments as far as I can recall.

Personally I'd be okey with playing agianst them, but I would not want to be associated with it, or make such an army personally.

EDIT: found the thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page

Please read through this before you start painting

Zaustus
19-01-2012, 14:38
Fifty years from now this won't even be an issue. I guess the psychological wound is still too raw for some folks, even ~70 years after the fact. It's important to respect people's feelings though.

There's a podcast series where, in the first episode, the host talks about Alexander the Great and how he did atrocious things, committed genocide against the Thracians, slaughtered a bloody path across south Asia, and became increasingly paranoid and murderous near the end of his life (at the age of 32). But with 2300+ years between him and us, all we remember is the mighty conqueror. We don't view him as an acient version of Hitler. How this relates is that the podcaster poses the question, "In 2000 years, will history view Hitler as another Alexander?" It could happen much sooner than that, as the events fade from living memory.

Artinam
19-01-2012, 15:11
Think about Napoleon, a brutal warlord who crowned himself Emperor ;). I mean they see him as a great general, uniformed a lot of the legal and structural systems today. He was still a murderous dictator bent on 'World/Europe' Domination.

The point on using a Swastika in your armies has been well described by my posts before mine. If you do paint it with these symbols you might be affiliated with neo-nazism.
Its very double standards, seeing how the USSR with Stalin isn't a lot better. But its simply the case that people see it all in a certain way.

Chaos and Evil
20-01-2012, 12:27
Make a Wehrmacht army if you like, but if you include Nazi symbology, be prepared to be thought of as a neonazi and treated as such.
QFT.

Identifiable WWII German iconography does not belong on your toy soldiers unless you're playing a WWII-based game (such as flames of war).

AndrewGPaul
20-01-2012, 13:36
I'd say the same of any historical iconography, although that's not because of emotional connotations. 40K and Warhammer have their own visual imagery nd iconography, and simply painting swastikas, rising suns, allied stars or whatever - or using models armed with M-16s, AK-47s, Vikcers HMGs, etc - just sticks out badly like a sore thumb.

Ozorik
20-01-2012, 14:47
How about using Martini-Henry rifles? ;)

As long there is internal consistency then it really doesn't matter what figures you use (as long as they have an obvious analogue).

Its a game, basically do what you want but be prepared to experience consequences with people who disagree with your use of imagery.

SunTzu
20-01-2012, 15:01
I utterly and completely disagree with you SunTzu and here is why.

Collecting a dark eldar army...

Way to completely and utterly miss my point. Even though I anticipated that in advance and addressed it in my post. (I probably shouldn't have mentioned Dark Eldar in the first place because I knew it would allow people like you to avoid the point in exactly the way you have done, but there we have it...)

OK. So you come up against an Imperial Guard player with a Praetorian army. Y'know the Praetorians, right? Red jackets, white pith helmets... they use all the same uniforms and iconography as a British Colonial army. They even featured in a battle report in White Dwarf called The Battle of Ork's Drift in which they saw off wave after wave of Orks, in a very obvious tribute to the Battle of Rourke's Drift as featured in the film Zulu.

Do you automatically think that player is in favour of imperialism? Do you assume that player thinks it's OK for African nations to be governed as colonies of a European nation's empire? Do you think that player would use phrases like "they're just cowardly blacks!" (as featured in the film Zulu)? Do you assume that player is racist?

No? Why not? They're collecting an army using the iconography of a real-life, historical, racist imperialist regime after all. Here's why not: because toy soldiers and politics have nothing whatsoever to do with one another.

And yet an army comes up inspired by Nazi uniforms and potentially featuring Nazi iconography, and you say you do assume that player has a correlation between their toy soldiers and their politics. Why, when you wouldn't for a Praetorian army? It's a double standard. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite? It certainly makes you prejudiced because you are pre-judging someone without knowing anything about them.

Someone walking down the street with a swastika tattoo, chanting "Juden Raus" and throwing petrol bombs at synagogues is racist neo-Nazi scum. Someone pushing toy soldiers round a tabletop may or may not be scum - but you can't possibly know that just from looking at their toy soldiers.

Max Jet
20-01-2012, 15:14
Do you automatically think that player is in favour of imperialism? Do you assume that player thinks it's OK for African nations to be governed as colonies of a European nation's empire? Do you think that player would use phrases like "they're just cowardly blacks!" (as featured in the film Zulu)? Do you assume that player is racist?

No I don't, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone would. And what I think about that particular regiment is well known. I think it was a big mistake pulling them out of the top hat.

Now it isn't in a historical game, if you ask yourself why, please reread my first post. Knowledge + Education > Feelings based on actual events > Fantasy Army Preference. That's my post in a nutshell


No? Why not? They're collecting an army using the iconography of a real-life, historical, racist imperialist regime after all. Here's why not: because toy soldiers and politics have nothing whatsoever to do with one another.

Toy soldiers and politics DO have something to do with each other. I do not need to go further into that, but one look at your toy store will teach you this. If you doubt check
a) which toys will never get sold or got withdrawn from the shelves in a matter of weeks
b) which toys DO get sold
Go ahead


And yet an army comes up inspired by Nazi uniforms and potentially featuring Nazi iconography, and you say you do assume that player has a correlation between their toy soldiers and their politics. Why, when you wouldn't for a Praetorian army? It's a double standard. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite? It certainly makes you prejudiced because you are pre-judging someone without knowing anything about them.

Reread my post.


Someone walking down the street with a swastika tattoo, chanting "Juden Raus" and throwing petrol bombs at synagogues is racist neo-Nazi scum. Someone pushing toy soldiers round a tabletop may or may not be scum - but you can't possibly know that just from looking at their toy soldiers.

That's not what I said. I said you have to be social and care for the feelings of others. In case you missed, here is my post in a nutshell again.. just in case.

Knowledge + Education > Feelings based on actual events > Fantasy Army Preference

I did no accusation, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone got accused because of a possibly offensive historical themed army in a fantasy game where it simply does not belong.

Spider-pope
20-01-2012, 16:15
I would imagine a good rule of thumb is if you find yourself posting on Warseer to ask if something is likely to cause offense, you already know the answer.

Hrw-Amen
20-01-2012, 19:02
On a personal note I would not have a problem with a German themed army. Go with the heads if you want to they are fine and if anything a little comic.

I to would avoid the swastika simply because I know it would offend some people rather than because what I think of it myself. I am not sure though if you used it on an oriental themed force it would have the same impact or even if people would notice it? But I would avoid it anyway.

People are offended by all sorts of different things though so it is hard to tell, which maybe why the OP has asked? For example I was a teenager during the Falklands and still think of the Argentines as the enemy, because that is how it was when I was growing up. I see that as the reason why my parents and grandparents did not like Germans, although I have no problems with them.

I wonder how some of our German players feel about British or American themed armies, or even the Valhallans who seem to have a Russian theme, does that offend them?

Would younger people getting into the game be offended by an Iraq or Afghanistan themed IG army, or if they are from the middle east how do they feel about western themed forces? I don't know but it would not cause me a problem particularly?

thesheriff
20-01-2012, 19:25
I would imagine a good rule of thumb is if you find yourself posting on Warseer to ask if something is likely to cause offense, you already know the answer.

Well obviously not. Otherwise i wouldn't be posting it.

Im not soemone who needs tehre mind made up for them. I dont find it offensive. But i want to guage how others woudl feel. At the end of the day, im not a mind reader. If i build this army that i feel is appropriate, and then when i go to a local GCN i cant get a game, ive wasted time and money on my models.

And from the nature of the posters before this, we can all see that we are a bunch if very opiniated people. futher more, people with differant ideas.

My "prediction" of this thread if you will was that people woudlnt mind anything as long as there were no swastikas and no overt racist referances (inapropriate terrain or banner designs depicting torture or the discrimination against Jews/gypsies/homosexuals).

I think what some people are also forgetting is that the kind of army I am trying to depict, is not of a typical nazi division in WW2, but of a Rommel-esque force. When I say Rommel-esque, I mean an WW2 German army that were NOT Nazis effectivly. People are obviously clued up, but a quick wikipeia search will tell you that Rommels Afrika Corps were the only German contingent not to be accused of warcrimes. They kept prisoners well fed and safe. They refused to shoot jews and communists on site. They didnt even like wearing Swastikas and overtly Nazi-iconography. They are far more remenicent of German troops of WW1 infact. Solidiers of Germany, not Soldiers of Nazi-germany.

I mean, one of the main reasons i want to collect these guys is because ive got a mate with a Russian-themed IG army, and i think playing against him would be cool.

Id go as far to say that i am not even depicting nazis. Im depicting Germans.

Nephilim of Sin
21-01-2012, 00:40
QFT.

Identifiable WWII German iconography does not belong on your toy soldiers unless you're playing a WWII-based game (such as flames of war).

While this may sound like trolling, I assure you I really am not attempting to do that. I honestly have to ask why? Perhaps it is because I don't play historicals, but, I can't see the difference between someone choosing to play a Historical Army with Nazi imagery and someone play Imperial Guard with Nazi Imagery. Why? Simply put, if the issue is because what the symbols represent, the thought process behind 'why would you want to play that', etc..., it would seem to me that people would then rather play against the Nazis in Historicals (i.e. something similar to older games, where they are represented as the de facto 'bad guy' controlled by the 'game itself', rather than another individual'). Perhaps I am being dense, but I just don't see how it is okay in one scenario (because it is based on history), and not in another (where the models may be sci-fi, but based completely upon our real history AND iconography).

Honestly, what gets me is if the models themselves are so close to the actual article, does adding one more symbol actually do any more 'damage'? If people can look at an IG army (or old-school Orks) and say 'Bam, those are supposed to be/inspired by Nazi Germany WWII', then, aren't they already bordering on the offensive? Just taking one icon away doesn't necessarily negate what else the imagery represents, I would think.

Again, though, perhaps as I don't play Historicals I can't see the appeal, and I wouldn't mind an honest answer concerning that. Personally, what is the appeal of playing with your toy soldiers in Historicals if they have Nazi iconography? What makes that different than choosing and playing an IG army with the same?

(I do not condone any of the atrocities committed by the Nazi's during WWII. I also understand that there is a difference between the Nazi's and the Germans of WWII. I also understand that in Germany, this would be one heck of a no-no by laws, which would render this entire argument invalid.)

@AndrewGPaul: I agree concerning Warhammer completely and totally. Not as much with 40K, since again, it is supposed to be us in the far future (and look at all the crap we have to steal from past cultures, it could stand to reason that it would continue).

All that being said, I still wouldn't do it personally, but I can see why someone else would.

prowla
21-01-2012, 05:58
You could use this (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=hakaristi&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=TPI&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=np&biw=1680&bih=910&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=RO3oOC-XljkUeM:&imgrefurl=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Suomalainen_hakaristi.png&docid=3RKvhTqyFh5fOM&imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Suomalainen_hakaristi.png&w=400&h=368&ei=hCkXT5XkKYiv8gPJioH6Ag&zoom=1) which also has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Germany but still looks similar.

It actually has things to do with Germany and with the Nazis, but not directly. It's an interesting story.

The blue horizontal swastika is the symbol of Finnish Air Force - and is still displayed in some unit flags, by the way. It was adopted from Swedish count von Rosen, who donated the first biplane to the Finnish Air Force in 1919, after Finland had gained it's independence. Blue swastika was a symbol von Rosen had painted on the wings as his personal charm of good luck. 1919 the Nazis didn't exist yet, but, interestingly enough, certain Hermann GŲring married von Rosen's wife's sister in 1923. Count von Rosen turned out to be a vocal nazi symphatizer later, and Finland was allied with the Nazis after the Soviet Union started their attempt to invade Finland. So not perhaps a very lucky symbol, after all :p

Darnok
21-01-2012, 08:01
Thread closed due to devolving into strict P&R territory. I guess the OP has the answers he looked for - if not, please PM me.

If you want to discuss the political implications of this: guild up. ;)


Darnok [=I=]
The WarSeer Inquisition