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Sigmar nolinks
19-01-2012, 00:19
Does anybody else share the same opinion that new army books and rules are coming out too quickly ?

I'd rather GW were more prompt in releasing miniatures to support unit rules in the books in (eg Cygors, Ghorgons). Also, I think we would all benefit from a bit more play testing before armies are released to avoid the need for FAQs (afterall, we don't generally need them for other games).

Miredorf
19-01-2012, 00:22
I agree with you in the meaning, although the ironical thing is that they ''dont'' release the books any fast at all =)

Malorian
19-01-2012, 00:30
They are going at a good speed if you ask me.

Army books need to keep coming to keep up with the main rule book, and obviously they make more money too ;)

Jind_Singh
19-01-2012, 00:32
Woah there Betsy!

First off this should ideally be in the GW General forum rather than Warhammer...

Second off ABSOLUTELY NOT! This is actually the ONLY way for GW to operate - right now they have a brand new edition of Warhammer which could flop over and die if they don't keep up the output of books that they have.

The sooner they convert over the bulk of the books to 8th, the sooner this edition of warhammer really will be 8th ed!

Now we have:

Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts

Storm of Magic
Blood in the Bad Lands

Each book release is also bringing out new units/models, they are still doing splash releases - so I think it's just right the way it is.

40k releases are still coining in the money for them - Necrons have arisen in gaming stores all over the place - and I think there is enough coin roiling in to keep GW happy enough to bring out MORE goodies for us!

There are FIFTEEN armies in Warhammer alone - with just 4 new army books! I can quite easily see them do:

Empire = March

With 3 more fantasy books this year. That will give us a total of eight army books - just over half the current range. At that point I can see interest in Warhammer pick up momentum world wide as there are a lot of players who switched gaming systems while they wait for 8th ed to become 8th ed with proper 8th ed army books.

So bring it on GW - carry on with the pace and if anything ramp it up some more!

lbecks
19-01-2012, 00:34
They should go faster!

Grimstonefire
19-01-2012, 00:34
I completely disagree Sigmar

The thing is, you use releasing a lot of models with the books as a reason for slowing them down... Thats why a lot of 7th ed books took 5+ years to do and some a LOT longer.

They must separate model releases from books for the most part if they want to avoid this.

They are going through the books at a fair pace at the moment, probably because they've finally caught on that it's the lack of updated rules that's holding people back from certain armies, not the lack of decent models. Sure there are some exceptions, but broadly I believe that's true. Why it took them since early 6th ed to realise this I don't know.

Shimmergloom
19-01-2012, 00:45
There's still 3 armies using 6th edition army books and 1, Empire, using very early 7th. So no. They are not going too fast.

Kayosiv
19-01-2012, 00:58
Army books? Can we get a 9th edition BSB now? I want the wrinkles smoothed out.

In all seriousness, the irony is these last 4 books have been extremely balanced. Pretty much everyone with sense is going to agree that this new vampire book is way better than the 7th edition vampire counts book from a balance and fun perspective. So far, 8th edition is marred by questionable main rules but excellently balanced (though still not perfect) army books. It is the opposite of 7th which had pretty decent core rules but had army books one up each other in terms of power creep to the point of insanity.

It doesn't feel like they're going too fast because the new books are all fairly equal in power and not only that, better balanced while offering more versatile options than the 6th and 7th edition army books that they've replaced.

The Low King
19-01-2012, 01:17
All they need to do now is continue what they started with the Power scroll edit to smooth over a few creases and all will be perfect.

ChrisIronBrow
19-01-2012, 02:03
There's still 3 armies using 6th edition army books and 1, Empire, using very early 7th. So no. They are not going too fast.

Yeah, someone always loses the GW "army book lottery" I don't like waiting 8 years for a functional army. GW is far too slow.

Danny_D14
19-01-2012, 02:09
As I said to a girl once "You can never go too fast."

qurfy
19-01-2012, 02:49
i agree with jind

DaemonReign
19-01-2012, 03:07
So far, 8th edition is marred by questionable main rules but excellently balanced (though still not perfect) army books. It is the opposite of 7th which had pretty decent core rules but had army books one up each other in terms of power creep to the point of insanity.

I'm sorry but this is rubbish. The core rules is ultimately what makes these new army books, as well as the old army books, hell, the game balanced. Sure you can question the core rules, but by god not compared to the static mathhammer-fest of 7th.

Those Core rules was the whole reason GW had to resort to Army Creep. Don't you see that?


It doesn't feel like they're going too fast because the new books are all fairly equal in power and not only that, better balanced while offering more versatile options than the 6th and 7th edition army books that they've replaced.

Complete three-sixty here as I completely agree with the second part of your post. The new army books are really nice, and just like 8th over 7th a grand improvement in general compared to prior releases.
The ONG release had the lack of magic items hanging over it as a shadow, aside of that GW proved they had the integrity to revamp this oldtime army in a way that didn't ruin its feel.
With the OK/TK release they showed awareness of the problems these races had in previous editions - without breaking them. *Bravo*
This latest VC-book (and yes details can always be scrutinized of course) also puts the notion to rest that GW would make the mistake of going wild with the nerfbat.

Are they going too fast? So far I'd say no. 8th Ed is still pretty new and shiny and it makes sense to keep riding that wave. However, if GW keeps this pace up through ALL army books in the game (one per every quarter?) then I'd begin to worry just a little. It depends on how many people they actually got working on these different projects. The VC book, for example, really looks to me as though Kelly indeed wrote it almost singlehandedly. Don't get me wrong: It's a good book. But I believe there are quite alot of little things in it that has "one man's opinion" written all over it, that's all.

Not necessarily a bad thing. But still..

The bearded one
19-01-2012, 03:39
I'm sorry but this is rubbish. The core rules is ultimately what makes these new army books, as well as the old army books, hell, the game balanced. Sure you can question the core rules, but by god not compared to the static mathhammer-fest of 7th.

Those Core rules was the whole reason GW had to resort to Army Creep. Don't you see that?

I can't believe that I'm saying this.. but.. I agree with the daemon player!

When 8th came out, all armybooks suddenly, virtually automatically, came closer together in terms of power. My dwarfs have been better than they have been in years, while playing games against daemons and dark elves suddenly didn't seem like a lost cause anymore.

DaemonReign
19-01-2012, 04:20
I can't believe that I'm saying this.. but.. I agree with the daemon player!

... and what do we have to thank this 'blasphemous' consensus?
That's right.
The 8th Ed Core Rules. :p

EDIT
From my side of the pond I agree with the rest of your post too. In 7th Ed Dark Elves was the only opponant in our group that presented a nailbiting experience for me. As soon as 8th Ed came out every game I've played has been such an experience. Which is just great.
And now, with the new VC book, even the Vamps are gonna be a tough nut to crack.

8th is just so much better than 7th it's not even a valid topic to discuss.
In my humble opinion.. of course.

TheDarkDuke
19-01-2012, 05:04
Does anybody else share the same opinion that new army books and rules are coming out too quickly ?

I'd rather GW were more prompt in releasing miniatures to support unit rules in the books in (eg Cygors, Ghorgons). Also, I think we would all benefit from a bit more play testing before armies are released to avoid the need for FAQs (afterall, we don't generally need them for other games).

All I can say, jokingly and not jokingly all at once....

Go away.

Sexiest_hero
19-01-2012, 05:42
I've seen it all now. people complaining about models looking too good and now books coming out too fast. Is this a joke thread and I missed the punchline?

gdsora
19-01-2012, 05:55
I honestly think Rule wise, they need to be faster.

Erratas need to come out faster and be less afraid of changing things. I don't understand how certain things can last so long without being altered or changed. There are things that are just toxic game play wise, that should have been changed LONG ago. (Purple Sun, Hydra's, A-bombs).

What is the reason for this not being changed?

I come from a mmorpg background, and it just drives me insane to see things take X amount of Months/Years to fix something that is so inherently toxic to a game.

Just my 2cents.

theshoveller
19-01-2012, 07:51
I'm sorry but this is rubbish. The core rules is ultimately what makes these new army books, as well as the old army books, hell, the game balanced. Sure you can question the core rules, but by god not compared to the static mathhammer-fest of 7th.

Those Core rules was the whole reason GW had to resort to Army Creep. Don't you see that?
While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I remember army creep being an issue when I was a teenager playing WFB 4th and 40k 2nd.

Urgat
19-01-2012, 08:41
There's also the little fact that the people making the army books and the people making the minis are not the same, so the one has no bearing on the other. They've already decided what's going to be released months in advance anyway, and we know from Harry and co that they actually have minis already done that are waiting for release, like the WE plastic treeman, that are waiting for a window of release. So, imho, the fastest they go with the books, the fastest we get that window of opportunity for releases that are actually ready, in fact, even if it can sound a bit contradictory. EG: the fastest the WE book is released, the fastest the treeman is going to be released. If the WE book is pushed back because they decide to slower the AB releases, the treeman will be pushed back too, probably.
Uneducated guess, but I do think I'm right.

Duke Ramulots
20-01-2012, 12:03
The Dwarfs and Bretonnians books work rather well in 8th, the only need for an update IMO is that my army is unchanged for almost 8 years now. so I say bring on the updates!

Commissar_Kahl
20-01-2012, 12:40
Yes and no. While I find the wait for books to be updated to be irratating I feel that once the army books are mostly updated they will go onto the next edition. Sorry but I don't want to have to go onto the next edition in 2 or three years and have to go through the whole cycle again. In 40K at least it feels like the new editions are going faster and faster and I dont need fantasy to follow suit. My wallet can't take it.

Horace35
20-01-2012, 13:43
Is it my imagination or do I remember reading somewhere that they dont want a dramatic change from 8th -> 9th. Not sure where thats from, maybe i dreamt it :)

Crovax20
20-01-2012, 14:09
I quite like the speed the armybooks are coming out, up till now all the 8th edition books haven't been looking cheesed out..

@ Horace,

Possible, after all 8th edition is a bit of an overhaul so it would make sense to build upon 8th for 9th edition. They could easily build upon it, and I feel there is only one mechanic that truly needs a good looking at... namely the undead/unstable rules.

wizbix
20-01-2012, 14:31
It is quite laughable that people complained that they took too long and the books were well out of date. Now they are complaining the opposite. D'oh.

vcassano
20-01-2012, 14:50
It is quite laughable that people complained that they took too long and the books were well out of date. Now they are complaining the opposite. D'oh.

It wasn't the same people making these complaints, so it isn't laughable.

wizbix
20-01-2012, 14:56
It wasn't the same people making these complaints, so it isn't laughable.


Well then it just goes to show that some one is always going to be unhappy no mater what course of action GW take and thus a thread will appear about it on warseer. You cant please all the people all of the time... and all that nonsense.

Col. Tartleton
20-01-2012, 15:41
Warhammer is finally getting a bit of limelight opposed to 40k. This argument is silly.

There are 15 Official Factions
The RuleBook
Storm of Magic
Blood In The Badlands
Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos
And More Coming such as additional Forge Books and a rumored major Contingents Expansion which will blow the whole game open

All of which are being produced as high quality hardcover full color books.
Games Workshop is finally getting it right.

Haravikk
20-01-2012, 15:50
I think the current speed is one they should be perfectly capable of. In the case of Warhammer at least the quality of the books is pretty good, though they really need to work a lot harder at quality control; too many basic spelling errors creep in, and some rules are very poorly phrased, which implies they haven't been play tested enough at all. I mean, it only takes the book a day or two in the wild for a heap of errors and rules exploits to crop up, so surely over a period of a few weeks or a month it should be easy for GW to find most of these itself?

I dunno; I don't want GW to slow down, as the current rate is good, as we need the armies updated, ideally all of them before 9th begins to loom, rather than the usual haphazard mess with armies being crippled between editions by late updates. But they definitely need more proof-reading and play-testing.

I don't much mind the lack of minis for new unit entries; what I hate the most are when armies are being updated with lots of new minis, when existing ones are in dire need of replacement. For example, I can't really see what the Coven Throne and Mortis Engine added to the Vampire Counts, meanwhile the Black Coach is in dire need of a plastic kit, as it's a joke to build in metal, and even more of a joke with the price of Finecast. Why couldn't they have incorporated some of the Mortis Engine idea into the Black Coach rules, and made a combined Black Coach and Coven Throne set? These are the kind of decisions that are leaving armies with badly outdated, or completely unreasonable models, and the temptation to keep adding tons of new stuff leads to existing models being forgotten and ending up with rubbish rules.

Kirth
20-01-2012, 16:10
I wouldn't mind the speed at which books are released if I could still pick up a copy for $20. Selling me a repack of an army book already released this edition in a hardbound book for double that and I say no. I love GW's fluff and the main reason I pick up a book is for inspiration for an army theme. The main reason I am in this hobby is for the modeling and painting aspect of it and I find myself more and more relying on my old collection of books to get inspiration. Unfortunately I have no justification for my disapproval because GW is a business and will do what they need to do to turn a profit. They don't care that one of my favorite armies hasn't seen a new army book since 2005.

AlphariusOmegon20
20-01-2012, 17:16
I think they should release things faster than they are now. Hire some more proofreaders to take care of the mistakes before it goes to print, that solves the misspellings and errors.

But it shouldn't take 4 - 5 years to update the whole line. We'll have 9th looming by then.

Col. Dash
20-01-2012, 18:02
I love 8th edition and the books thus far produced for it. I think they should have skipped SoM and put out saaaaay Wood Elves but I like what they have done so far. I think army books should come out faster starting with the older army books and working our way forward from there. The newer books are already relatively useful in 8th so there is much less need to put them out.

popisdead
20-01-2012, 18:05
Does anybody else share the same opinion that new army books and rules are coming out too quickly ?.

Well it took 7 months for the first 8th ed army book then we've had 3 more? 4 in about 18, 19 months? I would prefer a solid 1 per 3 months myself.

Petey
20-01-2012, 18:06
Does anybody else share the same opinion that new army books and rules are coming out too quickly ?

I'd rather GW were more prompt in releasing miniatures to support unit rules in the books in (eg Cygors, Ghorgons). Also, I think we would all benefit from a bit more play testing before armies are released to avoid the need for FAQs (afterall, we don't generally need them for other games).

No. They're going too slowly

Duke Ramulots
20-01-2012, 19:16
Here's a question. if GW released all the remaining books today and they were as ballanced as the ones(8th edition books of corse) already out, would it be a possitive or negetive move? If you answered that it would be a possitive move than they are going too slow.

Gorbad Ironclaw
20-01-2012, 19:26
I'd rather GW were more prompt in releasing miniatures to support unit rules in the books in

I'd much rather have the rules than the miniatures if it's going to be one or the other. It's a lot easier to get around missing models than it is to invent rules that everyone is willing to play with. That's the key spot that GW needs to fill from my perspective as a gamer. Pretty miniatures are a happy bonus to that, but if they are good they will also sell themselves and doesn't need to be coordinated with the rules releases.

So from GW I'd much rather see them get the rules out and then they can release whatever models they have when ever they have them.

ihavetoomuchminis
20-01-2012, 20:48
They are still too slow. 1 book every 2-3 months would be right. And just that. Right. Even more taking in account that they copy half the last book, or even more of it. (see the VC fluff, or the O&G army list). I know the models are harder to make, but it doesn't take 4!!!!! or 8!!!! months to make them, unless you're a lazy company more worried about raising prices and keeping your secrecy than in making models and promote your product. There are products and projects way more complicated than army books and army models, and it doesn't take that much time to them. It's not like they were making cars......

redben
20-01-2012, 21:39
I suspect there may be a slowing down of WFB releases once a certain sci-fi little brother gets its 6th edition.




They are still too slow. 1 book every 2-3 months would be right. And just that. Right. Even more taking in account that they copy half the last book, or even more of it. (see the VC fluff, or the O&G army list). I know the models are harder to make, but it doesn't take 4!!!!! or 8!!!! months to make them, unless you're a lazy company more worried about raising prices and keeping your secrecy than in making models and promote your product. There are products and projects way more complicated than army books and army models, and it doesn't take that much time to them. It's not like they were making cars......


How do you know it doesn't take that long to make them?

Charistoph
20-01-2012, 22:04
I think we can expect 2 more Fantasy books this year, if 2010 is any indication. 1 more in the Spring, and 1 in the Fall. The Ramp up for 40K 6th and LotR: Hobbit will consume most of the year with 40K lucky to get 2 more codecies out for the entire year.

I will be pleased as puch if I err on the low side, though.

SteVieBizzLe
20-01-2012, 22:10
I think people have missed the point of the original topic....whilst i agree on all fronts that GW needs to bring out new books/codicies and rules more often, we really need to consider the affect this has on the QUALITY of the book it self.

Too often book are coming out that either seem to have missed the point or been written by a fool (*cough* Cruddace *cough) or they have poorly written rules that have to be interpreted by the community, which will never end up in a good place. IMHO the process would work better if Ward, Kelly, Cruddace and whoever else worked on these new books together. Books would be completed quicker (many hand make light work and all that) and we would see a greater sense of balance (no more Ward vs Kelly shootouts ala GK vs DE)

So in truth GW have not got it right, they need to get books out quicker and they need an army of proof readers and play testers to iron out the creases, hell get the community to do it, im sure we could get a warseer committee to do it for free :D

As for the erratta/FAQ point, GW will rarely change things, they are too egotistical to admit they made an error on a rule. Good or Bad.

-SteVie

warhammero
20-01-2012, 22:17
I think that the speed it is just fine but the mistakes aré simply just .....

VanHel
20-01-2012, 23:15
While I agree in theory, you can't release stuff slowly. Case in point, Crocodile Games. They make a game called Wargods of Aegyptus, which is a great game, but is dying because they are taking forever to release updates.

dimetri1
20-01-2012, 23:23
I think that as far as the books are concerned GW is doing a great job, better than ever.

ihavetoomuchminis
21-01-2012, 03:33
I suspect there may be a slowing down of WFB releases once a certain sci-fi little brother gets its 6th edition.

How do you know it doesn't take that long to make them?

I'm sure you're right about the "little" brother (i'm not sure it is little xD).

I don't know for sure, i just guess, based on the information my grade and my job provides me. It's just an educated guess. I could go further, but it'll be severely off-topic :P

DarkMark
21-01-2012, 09:25
Sloths have been known to move faster than GW! They should aim to release all books within 6 months of a core rule set change, models can follow later.

Rayd
21-01-2012, 17:05
Sloths have been known to move faster than GW! They should aim to release all books within 6 months of a core rule set change, models can follow later.

I completely agree with this. It seems that certain armies get into dire straights and become less competetive everytime a new rule book is released. I am just starting back up and just from reading the forums I can see that my favorite army, the Wood Elves have a hard time staying competitive in 8th ed, and they are by no means the only ones.

redben
21-01-2012, 23:13
I'm sure you're right about the "little" brother (i'm not sure it is little xD).

I don't know for sure, i just guess, based on the information my grade and my job provides me. It's just an educated guess. I could go further, but it'll be severely off-topic :P

I've taken the opportunity to speak with staff involved in all stages of the process at Games Days and it can take as much as five years to get from start to finish on releasing a new army. There are a whole host of people and departments involved in the creation of a new army and just concept sketches and initial sculpts can take a year to reach a point where they're ready.

For those wanting all the army books released very quickly, Games Workshop has a business model that works very well for them and involves the release of a new army approximately every three months. It's quick enough that they can keep a constant turnover of new sales whilst not being so quick they saturate the market. If you release the books all at once and then catch up with the figures then the opportunity of of hooking people with a new army (that they may never put together let alone play) is lessened.

redfury
22-01-2012, 01:37
I think they're going as fast as they can considering they'd make more money if they went faster. Then again. GW isn't exactly known for being good at making money. Imagine how much more they'd make if they were to drop the price of everything by say 20%? But still it currently feels like warhammmer is incomplete. And they aren't going in the order they should be...maybe they should just stop spending so much time and money on scifi models that all look alike.

lbecks
22-01-2012, 01:49
I think GW should aim to release army books within 2-3 years of a new edition, main models within 3-4 years and the remaining time they can introduce a campaign, scenarios, expansions, corrections with additional campaign model support, hold tournaments, as well as gear up for the rinse and repeat of the next edition. Editions should have a longer life and there should be at least a few years where players can enjoy the edition together with all players having relevant armies.

redben
22-01-2012, 14:53
Then again. GW isn't exactly known for being good at making money.

Games Workshop have maintained their profits through a worldwide recession. We, as customers, may not like how they've gone about doing it but they understand their market much better than we do.



Imagine how much more they'd make if they were to drop the price of everything by say 20%?


They'd make about 20% less than they do now.

Lord Zarkov
22-01-2012, 16:30
Games Workshop have maintained their profits through a worldwide recession. We, as customers, may not like how they've gone about doing it but they understand their market much better than we do.

Indeed, apparently this year (according to the Sunday Times I think it was) their profits have risen by 40% over last year, despite the recession.

redben
22-01-2012, 16:55
The Space Marine video game gave them a substantial jump in profits in their last half-yearly figures. It accounted for close to a third of their overall profit and thus a fair chunk of the 40% increase. Their core business profit has stayed relatively stable.


And to illustrate the folly of a 20% price decrease. If, for argument's sake*, a set of 10 infantry models cost £10 to produce (once all of GW's many and varied costs are taken into account) and they sell it for £15 for a £5 profit per unit, then a 20% reduction in price would mean selling at £12 and a £2 profit per unit. This would mean sales would need to increase by x2.5 just to make the same amount of profit they do now. Even if we say a given army needs to buy 20 units to be at a reasonable size and thus the lower price point would result in a £60 reduction in the cost of an army, this is not going to generate an increase in sales of over x2.5.



*figures are for illustrative purposes only and it is obviously not possible to be this precise on cost and profit per unit.

redfury
22-01-2012, 17:01
Games Workshop have maintained their profits through a worldwide recession. We, as customers, may not like how they've gone about doing it but they understand their market much better than we do

They'd make about 20% less than they do now.

I have to disagree. Blood knights for example, if they were affordable I think people would purchase far more then they do now. Do to their high price there's a very low demand and most people convert. They need to make things affordable, maybe not lower prices but include new miniatures. Also, nothing can justify the price of fell bats...nothing

Also they should re-think the order in which they're releasing things. WE for example are IMO the coolest elves as far as fluff and aesthetics goes but they're not a viable army at all. They are far cooler than high elves and I'm sure a lot of people agree, the only reason they aren't selling well is cause GW won't acknowledge them.

ihavetoomuchminis
22-01-2012, 17:06
Did you even read the half-year report 3 weeks ago? A 40%??? WTF? They lowered sales across the world, barring US where they rised less than 1%. The only reason why they kept their profit is SPACE MARINE (THQ).




They'd make about 20% less than they do now.

Yes, and when they rise prices a 20%, they make a 20% more, right? ;).


I've taken the opportunity to speak with staff involved in all stages of the process at Games Days and it can take as much as five years to get from start to finish on releasing a new army. There are a whole host of people and departments involved in the creation of a new army and just concept sketches and initial sculpts can take a year to reach a point where they're ready.

That doesn't invalidate my point. You've speaked with GW staff. We know they take that long to release something. But that's not the norm in the product development world.

Echunia
22-01-2012, 17:17
Indeed, apparently this year (according to the Sunday Times I think it was) their profits have risen by 40% over last year, despite the recession.

Well, consider that they really kicked into gear with 8th ed armybooks 2011. The release schedule before that was really slow and uneventful. I think the profit has increased because of better product and a lot more of it!

redben
22-01-2012, 17:30
Did you even read the half-year report 3 weeks ago? A 40%??? WTF? They lowered sales across the world, barring US where they rised less than 1%. The only reason why they kept their profit is SPACE MARINE (THQ).



Yes, and when they rise prices a 20%, they make a 20% more, right? ;).



That doesn't invalidate my point. You've speaked with GW staff. We know they take that long to release something. But that's not the norm in the product development world.


No, they responded to falling sales by understanding their remaining customer base would pick up the slack if they hiked prices. Other companies went out of business, GW maintained profits. GW made a profit of £1.1 million in the financial year 08/09. In 09/10 they made a proft of £7.5 million. Last year they made a profit of £15.3 million. In the first six months of this year they made a profit of £9.1 million of which SM accounted for £1.6 million so even without this their figure would have been £7.5 million. Projected over the full 11/12 financial year gives £15 million and a maintained profit from last year. Falling sales is not the result of rising prices (or not in the main the result of them). Rising prices maintains the profit.

WarmbloodedLizard
22-01-2012, 17:34
And to illustrate the folly of a 20% price decrease. If, for argument's sake*, a set of 10 infantry models cost £10 to produce (once all of GW's many and varied costs are taken into account) and they sell it for £15 for a £5 profit per unit, then a 20% reduction in price would mean selling at £12 and a £2 profit per unit. This would mean sales would need to increase by x2.5 just to make the same amount of profit they do now. Even if we say a given army needs to buy 20 units to be at a reasonable size and thus the lower price point would result in a £60 reduction in the cost of an army, this is not going to generate an increase in sales of over x2.5.


I could just as well use different numbers and get a completetly different result, especially, since GW has low production costs per unit but high fixed costs. this means that if they sell more they can significantly lower the price of each individual unit. so reality is actually closer to the exact opposite of your argument.

the main problem of GW is that they don't have a sustainable business strategy. they believe that they have pulled in all the customers they can and now want to extract as much money from them as possible. Whether this is really the case or not I don't know. but I really don't think it is.

the problem is that they really need to make the game more accessible:
1. useful units in a box --> what you buy should be immediately playable (see PP with WM/Hordes)

2. scalable rules --> It should be possible to play the game with just a few small units. 8th edition is a horrible rules set for new players. (huge units, long game duration, and high entry prices deter new players and mainly extract money from the people that already play the game instead of bringing new people into the hobby. why not make it scale better? low point games would also make sure that games could be played in a much shorter time and with less initial investment)

3. real starter kits with playable armies for each army book (IoB is not the worst starter box but it could be a lot better, especially if the rules would support such small scale game properly. instead, it is a boy that is aimed mainly at people that already play the game and want to expand or start a new army. They Battalions are pretty horrible as starter packs: you cannot use them as a starter army without additional investment)

redfury
22-01-2012, 17:36
Anyone can tell you new products at good prices will increase demand. GW is at least making new products.

WarmbloodedLizard
22-01-2012, 17:40
Falling sales is not the result of rising prices (or not in the main the result of them). Rising prices maintains the profit.

that's just fighting the symptoms...

redben
22-01-2012, 17:47
that's just fighting the symptoms...



The point is more that the rising prices are a red herring when trying to understand falling sales. They're annoying to those of us playing their games but they're not the reason sales are falling. Therefore to say dropping prices 20% will bring a boost in sales without a corresponding fall in profits is mistaken.

Druchii Monkey
22-01-2012, 17:53
They're not too fast. My view is with the current edition and 15 playable armies in WHFB they should be putting out 4 books a year to keep things current. With the current edition i think every army book that has not been redone could do with an upgrade soon. But GW need to approach things with the current pace and quality so with new army books they include additional miniature releases. I also think with their chosen books so far they have gone for the easier targets and so their pace may slow, especially with 40K being the emphasis this year. By easier targets i think "Ogre Kingdoms" and "Vampires" were both quite lacking in certain ways before, one way to play them (Vampires) or a bit one dimensional in the types of units (Ogres). I think armies like Bretonnians, Wood Elves, and Dwarves probably need the most attention next and would be difficult books to update, but Empire will likely be next - it's an easier job - and possibly a more popular army than some of the others. I just hope GW give us more of the same from the last year or so and don't slow down on account of 40K, and they sort out Bretonnians and Wood Elves.

redfury
22-01-2012, 18:01
Someone explain how mantic can sell more minis in larger quantities and put them in clearly more expensive packaging? Saying that it costs 15$ to put plastic in a mold and package it is insane. They're responding to the economic conditions by raising prices thus lowering demand causing sales to drop more and then they raise the prices more whole companies like mantic and Reaper take advantage of gws falling demand.

The Low King
22-01-2012, 18:14
GW isnt an internet company, in runs stores and events. Those cost money. Also i think the GW models are better.

Just wondering, but the discount GW employees get...would that not be a more accurate measure of how low a price they could actually get to before it became unsustainable?

The bearded one
22-01-2012, 18:17
Mantic has simpler models, simpler assembly (nearly 1-piece mini's), and after that they're probably going for a smaller profitmargin. Furthermore like the low king rightly points out GW has actual stores and large numbers of staff, which do cost a lot of money, but I am happy they do that as it gets so many more people into this hobby than without them. Mantic's sellingpoint is not the coolness and quality of their models, but the numbers you get for your money so that you have an army on the table that looks ok enough, but doesn't cost a lot. GWs mini's are really excessive and exuberant. If I'd want enormous numbers of.. orcs, for example, I might go for mantic (if I didn't play in a GW store, anyway). If I'd want a centerpiece of any kind, or pretty much any sizable model in limited numbers (monstrous units, small monsters, warmachines, chariots, corpse carts etc.) I'd always pick GW.

I heard GWs profitmargin is 35% or so (meaning they can afford to lose, replace or not sell about 1/3 of their stock before they lose money on it, but that they're not making a profit anymore with employee discount.

redben
22-01-2012, 18:35
The intention of an employee discount is not to turn a profit but to offer an attractive benefit to an otherwise low paying job. My last job before becoming a student gave me free private health insurance. You can't then assume from that that a heath insurance company can afford to give its product away for free. My employer bore the cost as part of the package they paid me. It's best to think of things like this as part of the salary.


Out of curiousity, does the employee discount have a fair useage policy?

Jome
22-01-2012, 18:55
Models and book design are not done by the same ppl. So working on the O&G book, or Ogre book would not have stoped them from releasing the beastmen models. I also don't like how some armies can miss a whole edition. For me, I think GW should have all the army books for an edition done before the edition is released. that does not mean all the books have to come out at once, and the time between books could be spent modeling as it where, but then all the armies would be balanced, play tested, and ready to go so everyone who plays the game would enjoy the editon...think there are still 6ed books being used arn't there?

The Low King
22-01-2012, 19:19
The intention of an employee discount is not to turn a profit but to offer an attractive benefit to an otherwise low paying job. My last job before becoming a student gave me free private health insurance. You can't then assume from that that a heath insurance company can afford to give its product away for free. My employer bore the cost as part of the package they paid me. It's best to think of things like this as part of the salary.


Out of curiousity, does the employee discount have a fair useage policy?

A discount of this sort (unlike the different benifits of free health insurance, wich works in a differnt way) seems likely to be enough that there are no profits made on the models....hence why i wanted to know.

I assume they can only buy models for themselves.



35% seems fine for the margin on models, about right actually.

Druchii Monkey
22-01-2012, 19:26
I thought this thread was about release schedules. What on earth do staff discounts and the GW benefits package have to do with this? Why don't you throw in the kitchen sink while you're at it and make things even more relevant. :rolleyes: :p

The Low King
22-01-2012, 19:49
Easy link.

The three corners of the buisness triangle are Quality, Cost and Speed; all interlinked. As we are discussing one of them with regards to Games Workshop it is necessary to discuss all of them.

The bearded one
22-01-2012, 19:53
Also threads like to derail a bit.

The Low King
22-01-2012, 20:16
And TBO exists....

redben
22-01-2012, 20:22
Also threads like to derail a bit.


In real life they call it a "conversation".

vinush
22-01-2012, 21:18
I totally disagree that they're too fast. Blatantly not fast enough for the poor Woodies and Dwarfs.

THE \/ince

redfury
22-01-2012, 21:44
It cannot be that expensive to put a piece if plastic in a mold and then in a box. If they charged less I'm sure they'd increase demand, I've seen numerous new potential gamers go to malifaux or warmachine because of how expensive warhammer models are, and new gamers prefer metal to plastic and no one likes fineca$st. The thing is this. They aren't appealing to new players because of their price. Veteran players only buy new models as they own a sufficient amount of old ones. Releasing enough new and appealing models and hosting enough events to maintain a good profit is no easy task and as much as I love their products I'm afraid they're in for a rude awakening. Perhaps they should target new gamers

The bearded one
22-01-2012, 21:47
I totally disagree that they're too fast. Blatantly not fast enough for the poor Woodies and Dwarfs.

THE \/ince

Bretonnians are off worse than dwarfs. Dwarfs are still skipping about in joy from the humongous boosts 8th edition gave us.

Lord Zarkov
22-01-2012, 21:57
Bretonnians are off worse than dwarfs. Dwarfs are still skipping about in joy from the humongous boosts 8th edition gave us.
Dunno, the Bret Lance has no gripes with 8th Ed, and their characters positively love it (HKB vow, useful pegasi, etc)

The bearded one
22-01-2012, 22:35
certainly. I made the analysis long, long ago, right after 8th came out, that bretonnia funnily enough has the cavalry best adapted to 8th edition due to the lance rule granting them a lot of cheap, easy ranks to break steadfast with significantly faster than 5-wide cavalry can. However they're still lacking the oomph a bit. If they don't break an enemy on the charge, then most of their knights will get stuck. They're still cavalry and have to deal with the basic weaknesses of cavalry. Dwarfs are enjpying 8th edition because all their infantry (with great weapons) works like a charm as it's an infantry edition, while their warmachines became really spectacular as well.

Druchii Monkey
22-01-2012, 22:59
In real life they call it a "conversation".

Yeh, i think they call it a "conversation" that's gone off on a "tangent". Not bothered anymore though as some people now seem to be talking about the topic. :p


Dunno, the Bret Lance has no gripes with 8th Ed, and their characters positively love it (HKB vow, useful pegasi, etc)

The thing with Bretonnia is their army variety needs some reworking, to get a bit more playability, but also to sort the sense of magnitude on units like Grail Knights - they're looking a little weak compared to other emerging cavalry and they should be some of the best in the game - the book as a whole is looking a little stale - and evidence of a "not fast enough release" in their case. GW really need to get this army done.

redben
22-01-2012, 23:47
It cannot be that expensive to put a piece if plastic in a mold and then in a box. If they charged less I'm sure they'd increase demand, I've seen numerous new potential gamers go to malifaux or warmachine because of how expensive warhammer models are, and new gamers prefer metal to plastic and no one likes fineca$st. The thing is this. They aren't appealing to new players because of their price. Veteran players only buy new models as they own a sufficient amount of old ones. Releasing enough new and appealing models and hosting enough events to maintain a good profit is no easy task and as much as I love their products I'm afraid they're in for a rude awakening. Perhaps they should target new gamers


It's incredibly cheap to put a piece of plastic in a mold, the expense is in making the mold. It's way way more expensive than making resin or metal molds and you need to sell a lot before you can turn a profit.

Malifaux is cheaper than Warhammer because you need fewer models. On a price per figure basis it certainly is not cheaper. A starter box for Malifaux falls in the £18-30 range and contains 5-6 metal figures. GW charge £20.50 for 5 Chosen. The problem is you need to buy a number of Chosen to have one unit and that unit is only one part of the army. If Wyrd all of a sudden decided to switch to a wargame model and required you to buy 100+ models at the same price they are now then you wouldn't think that they're cheap. Many of their avatars are resin models which have a similar price point to an equivalent Forge World model.

WarmbloodedLizard
23-01-2012, 00:05
The point is more that the rising prices are a red herring when trying to understand falling sales. They're annoying to those of us playing their games but they're not the reason sales are falling. Therefore to say dropping prices 20% will bring a boost in sales without a corresponding fall in profits is mistaken.

that's actually not wholly true. while rising prices may not be the main reason for falling sales, it is certainly one of the main catalysts.

raising prices will pretty much always lower sales. and in a game that is dependant on network effects lowering sales is horrible for long term profit.

The Low King
23-01-2012, 00:44
It cannot be that expensive to put a piece if plastic in a mold and then in a box. If they charged less I'm sure they'd increase demand, I've seen numerous new potential gamers go to malifaux or warmachine because of how expensive warhammer models are, and new gamers prefer metal to plastic and no one likes fineca$st. The thing is this. They aren't appealing to new players because of their price. Veteran players only buy new models as they own a sufficient amount of old ones. Releasing enough new and appealing models and hosting enough events to maintain a good profit is no easy task and as much as I love their products I'm afraid they're in for a rude awakening. Perhaps they should target new gamers

Making the mold costs money.

Why do they prefer metal to plastic? surely they are going to like the far cheaper ones?

Also, i really like finecast. My gyrocopter is infinitly better (it actually goes together) and the other models are far better aswell. With the small exception of a few (actually only 1 real one so far) bad casts ive seen finecast was a great addition.

In my experience veteran players are the ones that tend to wake up one day and decide to buy an entire new army that they like. Ive done it, my friends have done it and the people ive talked to on the internet have done it.

Really, i think the question is: If they dropped costs, would it increase sales enough?

lbecks
23-01-2012, 01:15
Making the mold costs money.

Why do they prefer metal to plastic? surely they are going to like the far cheaper ones?

Also, i really like finecast. My gyrocopter is infinitly better (it actually goes together) and the other models are far better aswell. With the small exception of a few (actually only 1 real one so far) bad casts ive seen finecast was a great addition.

In my experience veteran players are the ones that tend to wake up one day and decide to buy an entire new army that they like. Ive done it, my friends have done it and the people ive talked to on the internet have done it.

Really, i think the question is: If they dropped costs, would it increase sales enough?

I'd also like to add paying the people who design the mini also costs money. You can't forget them when calculating the cost. Of course a plastic mold will eventually pay itself off after selling a certain number of kits and that's why GW likes to keep them in circulation for as long as possible. Something similar happens in video games, but video game companies will greatly reduce price after the game has been payed off.

In terms of charging less, I think outright charging less on all items wouldn't dramatically increase GW's profit. I think there are some minis which are just vastly overpriced such as the blood knights and the old ugly bats which might get a nice bump in sales. I think GW's bigger problem is they have no real marketing or advertising.

redben
23-01-2012, 01:39
that's actually not wholly true. while rising prices may not be the main reason for falling sales, it is certainly one of the main catalysts.

raising prices will pretty much always lower sales. and in a game that is dependant on network effects lowering sales is horrible for long term profit.



I never claimed rising prices haven't resulted in lost sales. I am claiming that if prices had held to, say, 2008 levels, then there still would have been a drop off in sales and GW's profits would have been significantly eaten into.

T10
23-01-2012, 11:14
I'd rather GW were more prompt in releasing miniatures to support unit rules in the books in (eg Cygors, Ghorgons). Also, I think we would all benefit from a bit more play testing before armies are released to avoid the need for FAQs (afterall, we don't generally need them for other games).

From what I' heard around the GW HQ (by some black-shirt "in-the-know") is that they've decided not to keep miniature development as closely tied to the army book releases as they did in the old days. That's why a lot of weird new stuff is coming out before their book (e.g. the Terrorgheist), and the books includes models that don't yet exist (the Beastmen monsters are a prime example).

The purpose is to avoid rushing the sculpting jobs to meet the a deadline far in advance of actual printing. This way they can also pique the interest of players with established armies by feeding them new releases down the line.

I approve of this new policy as it results in better rules and better models.

-T10

The Low King
23-01-2012, 12:45
I find it interesting that everyone feels differently.

Some people think they should release faster.....
Some people think they are going to fast and need to check their books more....
Some people want models with the books....
Some want them released as soon as they are ready....