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ChaplainOrion
09-02-2012, 22:28
I want to do an army based around Native Americans, however I want to know the reaction I'll get. As I've never played, and I've been collecting way too long, I really want to get more into this wonderful hobby. So my question is how do people normally feel about these types of armies? I remember being on Dakka Dakka and someone started a thread on how they'd never play against a historical themed army, but I generally don't like the site because when a standard bearer from forgeworld was shown, a bunch of people cried out "NAZIS!" because it looks like a roman standard and as we all know the Nazis ripped them off on a bunch of stuff.

endless
09-02-2012, 22:42
I would suggest you find, and read, 'Deathwing' by, I think, Bill King, possibly the greatest 40k fiction ever. That said, GW has moved away from any area of history and/or culture that might prove to be controversial IRL. Theme is all well and good, 'rule of cool' can get you out of a tight spot, taking a potential fellow gamer's heritage and mucking about with it for giggles? Not so much. It's a touchy subject, tread lightly. :)

Rogue
09-02-2012, 22:43
Honestly, you would be following GW down that path on a lot of items. From fluff to miniature design, GW has no problem doing the same thing that you are contemplating. I would say to do it and if anyone has any problems with you for it tell them to stick it where the sun dont shine.

The Devourer
09-02-2012, 22:45
It depends how it is done. Simply taking Native americans and dropping them into 40k probabaly won't have a good effect- most people won'ty have a problem with it but it this sort of thing don't usually work well. If you come up with fluff explaing them and integrate the two themes well they can be very cool. I doubt many people would have a problem with it given the amount of links to RL events in stories written by GW themselves. If GW can have SW and praetorians i'm sure native americans would fit fine. Most people only complain when the army is nazi (or another army still disliked) since they aren't usually doing anything more than painting nazi symbols on GW models. Native americans have their own culture and imagery so bringing them into 40k actually has a purpose.

Which army are you planning to theme as native americans?

Angelwing
09-02-2012, 22:59
GW has already done this with Necromunda's ratskins. An imperial guard amry of these would look great, but be hellishly expensive!

Mannimarco
09-02-2012, 23:07
Primitive savages, some of whom were big on ritual cannibalism and taking trophies.

Might work as a heavy Kroot or Ork list.

Buddha777
09-02-2012, 23:11
Pretty much anything but nazi themed models are okay.

Remember that "real life" armies are already present in 40k. Let me just put on my flame retardant suit and preface this is a generalization but GW does similar things all the time: space wolves = vikings, ultramarines = romans, deathwing = native americans, DKoK = WWI german army, and the list goes on.

So hey if you want to make a native american themed army do it. You could have inflitrating and mobile space marines or IG, or even exodite style eldar.

carldooley
09-02-2012, 23:20
Pretty much anything but nazi themed models are okay.

quoted for truth. There are many themes that are safe, but some that will get you booed out of any place that you set them out for a game. Nazi themed IG are one such. another is the pornographic daemonette army. others are questionable - but your stated theme is arguably one of the safer ones. as others have said, themes taken from a fictional meme are safer than taking one from history. Tyranids following the brood(starcraft) or Flood(HALO) are a safer bet than one based on the Spanish Inquisition or Explorers with Plague Blankets.

TheDoctor
09-02-2012, 23:20
Actually, my first thought when he mentioned Native American themed army was either Dark Angels or Exodite Eldar.

Oh, and if anyone complains, school them with a history book. Pisses me off to no end when people are like "Death Korp of Krieg!!! WW1 style Germans!!! NAZISSSSSSSS!!!!!"

Beppo1234
09-02-2012, 23:31
Actually, my first thought when he mentioned Native American themed army was either Dark Angels or Exodite Eldar.

Oh, and if anyone complains, school them with a history book. Pisses me off to no end when people are like "Death Korp of Krieg!!! WW1 style Germans!!! NAZISSSSSSSS!!!!!"

or Kroot.......

the1stpip
10-02-2012, 00:59
Indeed, I have considered an ork Afrika Korps army, which while being WWII German, would have no nazi symbolism whatsoever, but this is still dangerous ground. But doing a native American themed army shouldn't be too much of a problem.

carlisimo
10-02-2012, 01:02
I don’t think it’s a matter of political correctness, but of how specific the reference is. The Death Corps of Krieg look like WWI Germans, but they have their own story and their own symbols. When you start using real-life symbols though, it’s no longer an army from the 41st millennium. I can only suspend belief to a point!

I think it’d be great to see an army inspired by Native American themes. I wouldn’t care so much to see actual Apaches in Space.

Scaryscarymushroom
10-02-2012, 01:02
Primitive savages, some of whom were big on ritual cannibalism and taking trophies.

See, this is what people mean when they say "tread lightly." Referring to Native Americans as primitive savages seems a bit inflamatory; and I believe that the reputation of these people for having cannibalistic rituals and war-trophies has been blown wildly out of proportion by the US government (during the 19th century, especially) and by the entertainment industry. As if cannibalism made them any less civilized in the first place.


Might work as a heavy Kroot or Ork list.

I would avoid using Orks to portray Native Americans. These people have been subject to centuries of nightmarish hyperbolic propaganda presenting them as vile ab-humans. As the defining features of the Orks are 1)highly aggressive and 2)stupid (neither of which is an accurate representation of Native Americans), you'd risk offending people with accidental attribution of undesirable characteristics.

For more thought-provoking discourse on the issue of applied racial assumptions in art and literature; I suggest you research the work of Edward Said (pronounced sah-eed). Particularly, a postmodernist literary movement called post-colonialism and Said's rejection of a school of thought known as Orientalism (http://english.emory.edu/Bahri/Orientalism.html).

@The OP: Tau artwork (regardless of Kroot) can be an interesting source for Native American influences in Warhammer 40k artwork. The relationship of the caste-system to the elements and nature has some intriguing native american overtones.

Also, an observation: Native Americans were not a big fan of industry, making Tau a bad fit. Actually, it would make everything a bad fit, except maybe daemons (lol) :rolleyes:. If only a person could field an army of psykers or something... ... ... :shifty:

ChaplainOrion
10-02-2012, 02:06
Primitive savages, some of whom were big on ritual cannibalism and taking trophies.
Might work as a heavy Kroot or Ork list.
Kinda hurts friend, I'm doing this in a way to respect my grandmother who was 100% Lokata-Sioux Native American, because I'm always told by my mom how much she would have loved to see me do this. Note the "loved" she passed away before I really knew her, so I'm really going to give a 110% on this to the best of my abilities. No offense taken though.

I want to do Space Marines, half of you just went "Oh great, another one.", but I'll switch in and out of Space Wolves later I guess. I've paged through my SM codex, you'd say it was a hat crime to literature because of how worn out it is. In the most short layman's runthrough the fluff is that a planet has been rediscovered by Imperial forces and named Zaeen, after the Rogue Trader Alexzander Zaeen (Kind of like Columbus/Amerigo), when they scouted it out they discovered a hardy people stuck in the stone age (Honestly I'm not sure about the Native stage of technological advancement due to the interference by the west), but had a primitive version of the Imperial Creed, Emperor=Great Spirit. Around the same time the High Lords of Terra feared for the loss of the Crimson Fists, so they decreed that this planet be selected as a new chapter to fill in the Crimson Fists' absence. The Ultramarines were selected to train the populace and teach them the "true" word of the Emperor. A couple years into it the chapter was three companies strong and decided on the name "The Brotherhood of Tatanka". (Tatanka means buffalo in Lakota) At this time a Waagh! noticed the increase in activity and decided that now would be the perfect time to grab some good loot. They cut through the Ultramarines lines and made planetfall on Zaeen, fortunately the Orks had aimed for the construction site of the Brotherhood's fortress monastery which was in the middle of a continent that was nothing but badlands, after a short battle the Brotherhood retreated into the badlands around the fortress monastery. The Brotherhood waged a decisive guerrilla war on the Orks and took trophies from the Ork fallen. After a year of hit and run tactics against the Orks, dramatically decreasing their numbers, retreated into their looted fortress monastery. But this was all part of the plan of the chapter master of the Brotherhood, who the detonated explosive charges laced throughout the compound that were placed before and after the invasion. The ensuing inferno wiped out most of the Orks and their spores. The Brotherhood of Tatanka took care of the rest, in the process of their war they had become grizzled veterans and all of them displayed trophies claimed in battle. The Ultramarines, when they had arrived with reinforcements, saw the destruction of the fortress monastery, and the trophies as a sign of barbarism and incompetence. They had taken away their trophies and attempted to make them into another Ultramarines chapter. This disrespect would not stand for the Brotherhood of Tatanka, and they declared they would die before they gave up their culture. The Adeptus Ministorum brokered with the chapter, in fear of losing another chapter, and said they could continue on with their traditions if they stayed loyal to the Imperium. And ever since then the Brotherhood has hated the Ultramarines.

And that was me writing as quickly as I could with all the fluff I've come up with. The finished product would be much more better.

ChaplainOrion
10-02-2012, 02:09
See, this is what people mean when they say "tread lightly." Referring to Native Americans as primitive savages seems a bit inflamatory; and I believe that the reputation of these people for having cannibalistic rituals and war-trophies has been blown wildly out of proportion by the US government (during the 19th century, especially) and by the entertainment industry. As if cannibalism made them any less civilized in the first place.



I would avoid using Orks to portray Native Americans. These people have been subject to centuries of nightmarish hyperbolic propaganda presenting them as vile ab-humans. As the defining features of the Orks are 1)highly aggressive and 2)stupid (neither of which is an accurate representation of Native Americans), you'd risk offending people with accidental attribution of undesirable characteristics.

For more thought-provoking discourse on the issue of applied racial assumptions in art and literature; I suggest you research the work of Edward Said (pronounced sah-eed). Particularly, a postmodernist literary movement called post-colonialism and Said's rejection of a school of thought known as Orientalism (http://english.emory.edu/Bahri/Orientalism.html).

@The OP: Tau artwork (regardless of Kroot) can be an interesting source for Native American influences in Warhammer 40k artwork. The relationship of the caste-system to the elements and nature has some intriguing native american overtones.

Also, an observation: Native Americans were not a big fan of industry, making Tau a bad fit. Actually, it would make everything a bad fit, except maybe daemons (lol) :rolleyes:. If only a person could field an army of psykers or something... ... ... :shifty:


Sorry for the double post, but thank you Scaryscarymushroom. You are a good man.

But I have to digress on the Tau part, I feel that they are more akin to the Feudal Japan with the caste system, the connection to nature, and their technology is kind of a representation of the modernization of Japan in the 18th century, and also a lot of Japnese culture is high tech robot stuff.

endless
10-02-2012, 02:32
I would have to say, much as I love toy soldiers, if you have an emotional connection you probably need to take a step back. This is boys playing army, and don't let anyone tell you different. Dude, have fun, but please don't make it into something it isn't.

ChaplainOrion
10-02-2012, 02:50
I would have to say, much as I love toy soldiers, if you have an emotional connection you probably need to take a step back. This is boys playing army, and don't let anyone tell you different. Dude, have fun, but please don't make it into something it isn't.

Yes I know, but doesn't everybody have an emotional attachment to their army? I mean that one army you worked really hard on and you had all this fun making, wouldn't you develop some sort of connection to it? However, I realize where you're coming from, and I'm not going to throw some hissy fit whenever I lose or Space marine number 22 dies, but I'll say something if someone disses the culture behind the army. It's the ideas behind the army I really care about, less of the actual army really.

endless
10-02-2012, 03:13
and that's what i mean, it's not an extension of you, or it shouldn't be, IMHO. You are much more significant than a bunch of toy soldiers, yes, we relate to elements of our family, our culture, or even of other cultures, that is what GW and everyone else plays on, but family? Spend time talking to them, do something else, don't let them come to you, go to them. Don't mis out.
As I said, cool space marines=deathwing, happiness=a goddamn keyboard which works properly, emotional stability = not black templars

Charistoph
10-02-2012, 03:44
Mostly good story, OP. A few parts need tweaking, but that can be best done on the Index Astartes board of the Bolter and Chainsword site. They are brutal, but very good at correcting the direction of the fluff.

I personally love the concept of the chapter, and it is similar what I have in mind for the Loyalist side of my Cursed Chaos Chapter. My guys are Apache, thoug. The new Marines are always rushing forward to proove themselves by "counting coup", and the really scary guys are Elites that run around with less armor, so put them in line for Space Wolves. After their Curse hit them, the Loyalist side converted to a more Black Templar style, though (but they're Sons of Dorn, so it makes sense).

One question, if I may, are you looking to do Lakota pre-horse, or post? If pre, than Space Wolves would be a good option. If post, than than you may want to look at the Space Marine Bike army or Ravenwing, though it is possible to work a Space Wolves version os this one, too, but you'd have to field Grimnar, and TDA doesn't really mesh well with how the Tribes did war from the Mexican deserts up through Canada.

ChaplainOrion
10-02-2012, 03:59
I was planning on doing post, but I don't own bike models so that's out of the question. I love terminators so they're important, if you look at it they're perfect. They're strong, sturdy, and big just like a buffalo, but twice as fierce. I have the rest of the fluff on another thread here at warseer, but that was a while ago I'll post it later. I actually came in second in a DIY chapter contest in my Space Marine clan, 1st was also me though with the Doom Wardens, a chapter mostly based off of the Bible.

Charistoph
10-02-2012, 04:05
Hey, they're your army. If you want them to be more Buffalo than Horse, that's awesome!

Eldartank
10-02-2012, 04:27
I want to do an army based around Native Americans, however I want to know the reaction I'll get. As I've never played, and I've been collecting way too long, I really want to get more into this wonderful hobby. So my question is how do people normally feel about these types of armies? I remember being on Dakka Dakka and someone started a thread on how they'd never play against a historical themed army, but I generally don't like the site because when a standard bearer from forgeworld was shown, a bunch of people cried out "NAZIS!" because it looks like a roman standard and as we all know the Nazis ripped them off on a bunch of stuff.

Sounds like a good idea. Personally, I think Space Marines would probably be the best bet for such an army. We already have Space Wolves (Vikings/Norsemen), White Scars (Mongols) and Ultramarines (Romans). The Space Wolves and White Scars, in particular, come from notably primitive cultures, your archetypal "noble savages." I see no reason why there can't be a Chapter that gets their recruits from a primitive world with a Native American type culture, and perhaps that world even being your Chapter home world, similar to Fenris being the Space Wolve's home world. If those natives on your homeworld do a lot of hunting and warring on horseback like many Native American tribes did, you could probably use either White Scars rules or Dark Angel Ravenwing rules for them.

Corax the Deliverer
10-02-2012, 04:28
As a Native American I say good luck with it. The only time I see Native Americans get upset is when you directly make fun of us (like call us savages :wtf:) or try to profit off us. But you are doing neither and sounds like you are trying to honor your heritage. Fluff wise I always thought space wolves were the best representation of Native Americans in 40k. Besides maybe this will be a time for you to learn more about yourself. Good luck.

Charistoph
10-02-2012, 06:05
As a Native American I say good luck with it. The only time I see Native Americans get upset is when you directly make fun of us (like call us savages :wtf:) ...

It didn't help that some of the Tribes that the Europeans met on the continent WERE somewhat savage, but there are bad apples in every lot. Compared to what the Europeans did to all the Tribes afterwards, there was too much of pot and kettle going on (or Dark Hole calling the kettle black). I'm grateful that most of my ancestors tried to stay out of it and tried to get along with their neighbors.

But you are correct that treating such things with respect is always a way to gain concession, if not outright approval.

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-02-2012, 07:29
The Space Wolves and White Scars, in particular, come from notably primitive cultures, your archetypal "noble savages."

Because the Vikings were much more primitive and savage than their contemporaries? I don't know enough about the Mongols to comment on them, but neither of those labels are actually very fitting for Vikings/Scandinavians. Just demonstrating that historical labelling based on stereotypes are usually wrong/bad. Now, it's rarely a problem as few people will mind too much, but it can be a little bit of a mine-field if you don't show respect. That being said, properly done there shouldn't be a problem at all.

Dr.Clock
10-02-2012, 07:52
I don't think Eldartank was talking about the 'historical precedent' of those chapters, but rather the in-universe depiction of the chapters' cultures/origins.

In this regard, the way that the those fictional cultures are written DOES contain elements of a 'noble savage' paradigm.

However, the 40k universe is FILLED with hyperbolic symbolism and allusion that should remain separate from real-world socio-political argumentation.

As to the OP's proposal: I would never presume to tell anyone what to do or not do with their own sense of cultural identity. I love playing against and seeing themed armies, and I think most other players do too. Have at it.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Wishing
10-02-2012, 09:35
I don’t think it’s a matter of political correctness, but of how specific the reference is. The Death Corps of Krieg look like WWI Germans, but they have their own story and their own symbols. When you start using real-life symbols though, it’s no longer an army from the 41st millennium. I can only suspend belief to a point!

I think it’d be great to see an army inspired by Native American themes. I wouldn’t care so much to see actual Apaches in Space.

I think this is the best point so far regarding the title of the thread.

There is a big difference between doing a historical army and an army inspired by history. If you use real historical symbols and references, then you take the army out of 40k and into a pseudo-real world representation. Then your army is like Hello Kitty marines, ie. it is not meant to represent a believable 41st millennium army. I can see why people might disagree with that.

However, most of 40k is historically inspired, so inspiration is no problem at all. Loads of imperial guard infantry is based on historical references, just like loads of marine chapters. As mentioned, Deathwing are an already existing native american themed marine force. So if that's what you're into, it should be no problem.

Bunnahabhain
10-02-2012, 09:46
Most of these examples of 'savages' have two factors in common:
They made very few written records/very few survived.
The people calling them savages made copious written records., which do survive.

For example.
The Vikings, with the penchant for raiding exposed and isolated monasteries, made sure they got themselves recorded only by their enemies, which focused on the negatives, oddly enough.

The Carthaginians, on the other hand, might have lost to Rome, but we have their written records, so they don't get written off as a bunch of savages.

orkmiester
10-02-2012, 09:59
There is a big difference between doing a historical army and an army inspired by history. If you use real historical symbols and references, then you take the army out of 40k and into a pseudo-real world representation. Then your army is like Hello Kitty marines, ie. it is not meant to represent a believable 41st millennium army. I can see why people might disagree with that.


this is a valid point, however...

well some historical symbols have been re used over the centuries (mentioning none in particular:shifty:) and it all depends upon how your gaming friends see it. Some people (no offence intended here) will always get the wrong end of the stick regardless of what you tell them. The DKOK are a good example, some people need to pay attention to history a little more and treat it with a bit of common sense, that would go a long way:rolleyes:

Just be sensible...


just my humble opinion:angel:

AndrewGPaul
10-02-2012, 11:17
DKoK = WWI german army,

No they're not. At least, not from the eyes down. :)

Personally, what bugs me is when it's a real-life stereotype (or something more accurate) just dropped onto slottabases. For example, using Perry or Wargames Factory 19th century British as Praetorians. If you look at the actual GW designs, there's plenty of 40K touches; not simply using a standard design of lasgun, but things like skull and eagle emblems and badges, odd things like the Krieg horses, etc. Even silly things like shoulder pad armour plates and the odd squadleader with a sword, a bionic eye or some cables plugged into the back of someone's head. All those little things that make it look like aq 40K miniature. Most conversion jobs I see, no matter how technically proficient, miss things like that.

Charistoph
10-02-2012, 14:26
There is a big difference between doing a historical army and an army inspired by history. If you use real historical symbols and references, then you take the army out of 40k and into a pseudo-real world representation. Then your army is like Hello Kitty marines, ie. it is not meant to represent a believable 41st millennium army. I can see why people might disagree with that.

Really? Then let's talk Black Templar, who use the Iron Cross as their symbol, which is very closely tied to WWI Germany, and even early WWII, as well as the ancient Teutonic Order. Does this take the Black Templar out and make them a disconnect with 40K? Not hardly. If anything, it enhances their theme.

With some exceptions, it's not what you use, but HOW you use the symbology that makes a difference. If you make a American Tribal themed army, and it more closely resembles F Troop than Dance With Wolves, than you are likely to get the 3rd degree.

Bloodknight
10-02-2012, 15:08
The BT symbol is the symbol of the Knights Hospitaller, which is not the Iron Cross, but a Maltese Cross. Kind of interesting that they did not go for an actual templar cross, or cross pattée (which evolved into the Iron Cross).

The Highlander
10-02-2012, 17:42
I think this is the key point when trying to do an army based on a real life subject, it’s all about how you do it. I’ve got a highland themed guard army where most of the models are wearing kilts, the regimental standard is a salute, I’ve converted two bagpipes for some of the command squads, the tank names are in Gaelic and it’s lead my a commander with a power claymore. All the details I’ve added to it are fairly respectful and ‘realistic’, and I’ve never had any bad comments about it (it helps that I’m from the highlands myself). It someone turned up with an ork army that looked like a bunch of Braveheart extras and was full of ‘see you jimmy’ hats then I might be a bit annoyed.

Overall, if your army looks good and isn’t just full of lazy stereotypes then most people probably won’t have a problem with it.

AndrewGPaul
10-02-2012, 18:00
It someone turned up with an ork army that looked like a bunch of Braveheart extras and was full of ‘see you jimmy’ hats then I might be a bit annoyed.

Can't imagine why. Apart from it not looking very "40k", that is. I'd be happier if it were a Blood Bowl team, because that game is more open to wacky models, IMO.

ChaplainOrion
10-02-2012, 19:59
132112
I want to be the one on the left not the right. I'd rather be beaten than be that.

carlisimo
10-02-2012, 20:09
this is a valid point, however...

well some historical symbols have been re used over the centuries (mentioning none in particular:shifty:) and it all depends upon how your gaming friends see it. Some people (no offence intended here) will always get the wrong end of the stick regardless of what you tell them. The DKOK are a good example, some people need to pay attention to history a little more and treat it with a bit of common sense, that would go a long way:rolleyes:

I’ve seen people try to argue that their soldiers in gray overcoats and WWII German camo have Buddhist rather than Nazi swastikas on them. Yeah, right. Symbols don’t exist in isolation. Put the swastikas on figures dressed in yellow robes and then I’ll believe that it’s being used as a Buddhist symbol. Not that Buddhist monks in space would feel like a real 40k army. I could, however, accept it on Eldar tabards (back when I started, the Eldar made heavier use of Eastern symbols).

Note that historically-inspired GW armies use either a historical symbol, or a historical look. The Catachans are straight out of real life, but use the Imperial Eagle and red lasguns. Black Templars use the Maltese Cross, but look like Space Marines. I suppose it’s just Imperial Guard armies where it’s really easy to go too far, because they aren’t very obviously sci-fi.

Bunnahabhain
10-02-2012, 20:33
I suppose it’s just Imperial Guard armies where it’s really easy to go too far, because they aren’t very obviously sci-fi.

Agreed. It doesn't help one little bit that GW seem to have had an unwritten rule with the Guard...
Does it look and feel like something from the 20-21st century? Lets make it good, and make it in a cheaper, plastic, kit.

Does it look and feel Imperial? Make the rules really bad. Make them expensive. Make them bad models. Make the kits older and harder to find, and not plastic.

See Preists, Tech preists, Ratlings, Ogryns, Sentinels and death strikes as examples.

SnakeWind
10-02-2012, 20:52
@ OP ; I think it's a great idea. Of course 40k is a hobby for fun, like some people say in this thread, but when buying, making and painting all these models, what's more fun than doing it in a theme that you feel really closely related with?

A Native American Friend of mine (he prefers to be called Indian, I use the term Native here because you use it. these things tend to change over time) has a Native Space Marine Army, based on the Eagle totem. I believe he never had any problems with people's reactions, and honestly, why should he? I don't think he would mind not to play against anyone who would have such issues.

You can make this a great theme for your Space Marines. You could organize the army like a Medicinewheel, with the colors of the winddirections on the shoulderpads. Chief and Command Squad in the centre, dedicated to the Sun, with Sun emblems on the shoulderpads. Characters as Elders. Things like that.

Let your imagination do his thing, and do what you want with your army.

Good luck, man.

Treadhead_1st
10-02-2012, 22:31
When reading this thread, I outright thought of Kroot - not for the savagery, but from the near-spiritual relationship with nature that seems to run through their background. However, you said you want to play Space Marines. I remember a story from a long time ago about how the Dark Angels' Deathwing got the colour of their armour, and there were a great many references to Native American culture there. You would also have the advantage of being able to do a "horse era" force with the Ravenwing rules, and the Deathwing provide your "buffaloes". The White Scars have the "noble savage" thing running with them, and their character could add a lot of abilities to the force - whether bike-based or not.

But both of these have been mentioned. Another idea that popped into my head was that, recently, the Raven Guard have had much more of a Native American bent to them, more in artwork than the models themselves (Corax has rather Native American features, the use of animal bones, their general attitude to war and warfare) - your own fluff for them as a Raven Guard successor could include that they have a more stable melanchrome organ (thereby bypassing the alabaster-white look). Shrike granting Infiltrate to his unit and Fleet to the army as a whole would be a great boon were you to eschew the use of bikes or transports.

Commissar Davis
10-02-2012, 22:55
Go with whatever theme you want, it's suppose to be about having fun at the end of the day.

I have know people to get uppity over Tallarn, comparing them with the Taliban :wtf:

People tend to have issues, if one of them has an issue over the theme for your plastic dudes, tell to either get over themselves or go see a shrink. (http://www.weknowawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/tumblr_li0h9l1sYp1qzgwino1_500.png)

**goes off to grumble in a corner**

Awilla the Hun
10-02-2012, 23:00
Speaking as someone who has a Bretonnian Peasant Army based on an insane cross of 1984, George Orwell's comments on communist propaganda, the Soviet Union, Maoist China, Revolutionary France, and some friends I've made at LARP, it's absolutely fine, and can be either fascinating or hilarious. One of the best I've seen as Morden's Enfield Fusiliers (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?32185-British-Expeditionary-Force-Themed-IG-Regiment), which are a proud testament to his researching skills and love of his subject. The only inappropriate ones I've heard of are the British POW SS Unit Imperial Guard Army, and the Explicit Slaanesh Army. I've also heard of some idiots in Dark Heresy deciding to play Tallarn Guardsmen as suicide bombers.

magnum12
10-02-2012, 23:13
RL themed can work pretty well as long as you don't do anything uncool with it. My guard army draws quite heavily on RL.

1. The list itself is based on RL "combined arms" style warfare (a mix of mechanized, foot, and aerial assault) and it works pretty well for me in terms of game play.
2. As for the physical appearance, I took heavy inspiration from SWAT, having a color scheme using black and dark blue. My 2 Vendettas (hand converted) use "counter shading" style camo (darker color on top, lighter color beneath used by aquatic and some aerial predators).

Sunyavadin
12-02-2012, 01:33
Most people tend to be cool on real life themes (Hell, look at the official ones like Space Vikings, Knights Templar, Romanmarines, and of course NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!) and pretty much anything goes among the community if it's well presented. Hello Kitty Marines and the like may not be too well received unless REALLY well presented, but otherwise the community is generally cool. Still, if you were to do, say, Nazi Marines, with swastika shoulder pads and SS markings on their helmets, you can expect to be kicked out of GW stores.

madprophet
12-02-2012, 04:30
In the old Schaeffer's Last Chancers set, there was a character named "Shiv" who had a very native American look, so the the theme isn't out of the question. If you treat your army as the "good guys" and come up with a good fluff basis for them, I don't see how it would be offensive.

I would go with the Indian Scout units that were attached to the U.S. Cavalry in the 19th century as a basis but YMMV

AngryAngel
12-02-2012, 06:48
I draw on RL conflict for my guard. My guard force is the 963rd Cadian Magic Men. The army is influenced heavily by the soviet forces in the soviet afghan war. Even down to the hammer and sickle on some vehicles. Heavy use of red colors and mountain, desert camo scheme. I'd researched the combat tactics and unit set ups for putting it together. All I'm missing is some more artillery tanks, but I'm waiting for better kits of that to come out.

Mr.selfdestruct
12-02-2012, 08:05
Having read through this thread I have one question- It seems that the general consensus is that if we (gaming community) are making a 40k army, stay away from icky things, i.e. Nazis, derogatory cultural references, and porno daemons. While I understand this viewpoint in the interests in keeping the peace, I am still wondering about the validity of this standpoint. Perhaps I'm WAY off base, but here's why: Historical Wargaming, or even RISK(tm). If you are playing RISK are you a bad person if you prefer to play the Axis forces? Should you feel guilty for painting up some awesome SS models to play DUST?
That being said, I'm still not planning to make an army based on Cambodian Death Squads. I simply want to ask if there is a difference. In every culture there is conflict at some point, and in every conflict a winner and a loser. Concepts like "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys" are based on perspective and nationality. If we are as concerned about never offending anyone with our army concepts as we say we are, then why stop with "No Nazis"? It could be said that the Atillan Rough Rider models are racist stereotypes right out of the box. Likewise, I have personally heard people calling Tallarn guardsmen "towel-heads" based on their appearance. If I were to model my army after the Taliban or Khmer Rouge or Spetznas or IRA am in as dangerous waters as the guy with the swastikas painted on his Khorne Berzerkers? (True story from my town)
I am not saying that I think we should be able to do whatever we want without caring if someone is offended, as that does not make for a very friendly community. I am simply wondering about our rationale when it comes to what is acceptable and what is not. No one sees anything wrong with the Roman Legion background used loosely for the Ultramarines and their successors, but the Roman Empire VIOLENTLY CONQUERED more of Europe than any force in history. Also, say you fashioned an army after Afghanistanian rebels. Right now, to Americans, they might be the bad guys. In the 1980's, we were all about helping them out so that they could fight the Russians, who were our allies 40 years earlier and allies 20 years later.
We are always in danger of offending the person next to us, for whatever reason- the color of our skin, the number of tattoos we have, the way we cut our hair, or the historical background of the 40k army we are playing. We often are warned to try and avoid being offensive, but how often are we cautioned to try and avoid being offended?
I would say that I apologize to anyone who finds my opinion or remarks hurtful, but I don't think I will. It's just how I feel. You don't have to care what I think, and I didn't say any of them to hurt anyone. My rambling 2 cents.

Commissar Vaughn
12-02-2012, 10:01
What Mr SelfDestruct said more or less...

Why can you not have Nazis "in Space!"(or Terrorists etc) in 40k but its perfectly fine to play them in Flames of War or any of the other countless WW2 games? Or the Post apopcalyptic/pst ww2 nazi and zombie games?

lantzkev
12-02-2012, 10:17
after that wall of text, I'm glad Commissar Vaughn summarized it for me.

Now I'm giggling about Hitlers Third Riech as a Chaos Space Marine themed army.

Mr.selfdestruct
12-02-2012, 10:24
Sorry, I rambled....Big thanks to Commissar Vaughn for paraphrasing!

Commissar Vaughn
12-02-2012, 10:38
no worries! I went through the entire thread wondering why everyone was like "you can have any theme except nazis or anything that'll offend people" and why no one had posted the counter argument, untill I got to your post!

Of course if your doing it becouse you want to offend people then fair enough, you need your head kicking in. But if its just that you're interested in the period, people, tactics, equipment etc of a potentialy offensive theme (and lets face it, millions of people are becouse it is interesting) then it becomes the offendees problem, not yours.

I know lots of people who collect ww2 Germans, but Im pretty sure none of them ever tortured a Jew, ergo people who collect ww2 German themed armies are not actually fascists.

And BTW, any 40k player who thinks theyre NOT playing "Fascists in Space!!!!" is nothing short of delusional! (ok maybe not actually delusional, but kidding themselves at least..)

Chaos Undecided
12-02-2012, 10:52
As Treadhead already mentioned the Deathwing origin story was quite Native American in theme and is at least still partly alluded to afaik by the feather decorations on the terminator parts included in the DA Veteran sprues, I see no reason why you shouldnt be able to create your own Chapter if you prefer themed around such a society after all alot of the main chapters are based on other human cultures throughout history.

Sunyavadin
12-02-2012, 13:35
Very well put there. Solid arguments, actually reminded of my ethics dissertation which got me the highest mark in my ethics class, even though it was being objectively critical of the Declaration of Helsinki.

And yes, any Imperial players who think they aren't playing Space Nazis already, are only deluding themselves.

Charistoph
12-02-2012, 21:38
If you are playing RISK are you a bad person if you prefer to play the Axis forces?

Definitely, no doubt about it. Classic Risk is based during the early 1800s. There was no Axis. You can be Napoleon or Prussian, but not Axis. I think you had Axis & Allies on the brain for that comparison.

In the end, it's more a question of "Do you REALLY need to be rocking THAT boat?", when it comes to doing certain themes. WWII Germans were good people, for the most part, defending their homeland against the enforced slavery put on them by the French and their Allies after WWI which slaughtered their economy and put the blame on them for an entire war that they were just defending an ally for. German themes are generally fine.

Now, those nutsy Nazis are a different story (even then, most Nazis were just card carriers, like most Chinese and Russian Communists, not fanatics, sociopaths, and lunatics, like a lot of the leadership was). If you deliberately build yourself an army with the intent to offend, that makes you the exhaust end of a mule. And I would have a hard time justifying playing someone like that just as much as if they dropped the f bomb for every adjective, noun, or verb that came out of their mouth; smelled like a distillery; or cheated on everything that they did in the game.

Gimp
12-02-2012, 22:36
I still plan on doing my Umkhonto we Sizwe (armed wing of the ANC) Catachan Guard army.

It was gonna have models from all the major players including an Arch Bishop Tutu with a giant Chainsword :/

Caused so much uproar the thread had to be taken down :/

Treadhead_1st
13-02-2012, 01:23
In the end, it's more a question of "Do you REALLY need to be rocking THAT boat?", when it comes to doing certain themes. WWII Germans were good people, for the most part, defending their homeland against the enforced slavery put on them by the French and their Allies after WWI which slaughtered their economy and put the blame on them for an entire war that they were just defending an ally for. German themes are generally fine.

I think that is a good point.

A while back I was contemplating my Steel Legion force - model-wise they are very similar to a certain German aesthetic. Also, they look absolutely stunning in some of the WW2 camouflage schemes the Germans developed. Would (or perhaps I mean should) that sort of thing be looked down on? After all, there would be no Nazi symbols - wherever there would be an Iron Cross or SS icon there would be an Imperial Eagle or the Winged Skull of the Imperial Guard. In the Imperial Guard Collector's Guide there was a diorama in the back of two Laser Tank Destroyers and a bunch of Steel Legion troops being ambushed, in what can only be described as a German colour-scheme, so there is evidence that it is not actually against any GW policy, nor even in bad taste.

As it happened I decided to go for a more traditional scheme to match-up with my Armageddon-themed Salamanders, but it did present something of a quandary - it was indeed based on something that could be linked to the Nazis fairly easily, yet the design was more based around a camouflage that looked striking on its own and paired up very well on the infantry sculpts and GW tanks in general.

madprophet
13-02-2012, 01:23
Of course if your doing it becouse you want to offend people then fair enough, you need your head kicking in.
And I know several gamers (myself included) who will be happy to do the kicking


But if its just that you're interested in the period, people, tactics, equipment etc of a potentialy offensive theme (and lets face it, millions of people are becouse it is interesting) then it becomes the offendees problem, not yours.
True - I am also a historical gamer (WW2 and ACW) and I have German and Confederate forces - I am not a Nazi (I don't think they let Jews in...) nor am I a racist. I also have British and Union forces though I am not a British subject (though I am an American but then so were both sides in the ACW...).



I know lots of people who collect ww2 Germans, but Im pretty sure none of them ever tortured a Jew, ergo people who collect ww2 German themed armies are not actually fascists.
I collect Valhallans - does that make me a communist? Personally, if the army is tastefully done and fits within the 40k fluff - any historical theme is fine. I could see DKoK as Wehrmacht or Mordians as SS troopers - just use the 40k symbols instead of the historical ones and it's all good. If you want to play actual Nazis then historical gaming is more appropriate. 40k is a "dark glass" reflection of our world. A warning of what we could become. Play it that way, and all is well. So, go ahead and paint your Mordians as SS troopers but use the Aquila instead of the swastika as the symbol (or the Chaos Star if you are playing them as traitors).

I painted my Valhallans much like the Red Army but I used red Aquilae rather than the hammer and sickle. Yes, I have lots of Commissars (they ARE based on the Soviet Zampolit) and yes, the army badge is a red star on a white field (lifted directed from the IG codex). I am NOT a communist (hell, I'm not even a liberal!) but I like the look of the Red Army and that I can reasonably have a fair number of female troopers! (I love conversions!)


And BTW, any 40k player who thinks theyre NOT playing "Fascists in Space!!!!" is nothing short of delusional! (ok maybe not actually delusional, but kidding themselves at least..)
Actually, the Imperium is the Byzantine Empire or Holy Roman Empire in space... not Nazis in space. When it comes to humans, the Imperium is pretty tolerant - Mutants and Xenos, not so much. It's economy is feudal, not socialist like in a fascist system. It's system of government is feudal and theocratic (though wide leeway is given in terms of actual religious expression - there are many variants of the Imperial cult) like the Byzantine and Holy Roman Empires. The Tau are space Soviets, the Orks space Vikings, the Eldar space gypsies and the Dark Eldar are space pirates (with a bondage fetish) - the Tyranids are space bug-eyed monsters (another classic SF theme)

Cadian7th
13-02-2012, 01:29
*sigh* I am a native american of the Algonquin nation;) My first 40k army was dark angels, cuz I was chuffed about them when I read Mr King's "Deathwing" back in the 90's...I am disappointed that 20 years on that "history" was lost. THey were not in the least offensive to me...or my family. the warpaint and armor markings are similar to what my ancestors used and had meaning...for strength of arm, accurate sight ect. History is lost when you do not use it or acutely avoid it. My tribe was sent out west to Fort Sill before the Civil War along with many ther tribes from the east of the Mississippi; that was so the white man could take our land for gold, farms, ect. Even though my ancestors of the time were merchants, farmers, storkeepers...they lost property and wealth. Some fought for the confederacy and others the union, both sought restoration of the land lost. We did not get our land back, but it isn't taught in schools. The information is only in tribal libraries and obsure public library books. I own and play ACW armies...and even play with a michigan sharpshooter regiment whose company K was entirely made of my northern cousins from the U.P. .
I can tolerate space nazies as well, some of the waffen ss were elite trained soldiers not at all like the gestapo ss bully boys. But people are so frightened of ww2 germany that they forget that the swastika and the nordic ss runes are older... way older than hitler's germany. The german helmet and tank armor...and engineering is used in many militaries today because they were ahead of the time.
I guess in short, don't hide from the history but explore it... otherwise you may forget stuff like scalping( done so you could present to colonial powers proof of kills)...cannibalism???? WTF :eek: you guys know that the wendigo is a demon spirit of someone who ate human flesh...sorta like a European ghoul, but bigger, more hair, faster, and a whole lot meaner!!!:evilgrin:

Chem-Dog
13-02-2012, 02:17
132112
I want to be the one on the left not the right. I'd rather be beaten than be that.

99% of your question is answered here by you. If you're not trying to court controversy or get some offensive iconography through on historical justification so, with me, you're golden.

Mr.selfdestruct
13-02-2012, 03:03
I must now issue another thank you, this time to Charistoph. I most certainly had Axis & Allies on the brain when I referenced RISK. I cannot count how many times I have done that IRL. Thank you for noticing!

carldooley
13-02-2012, 03:15
In the old Schaeffer's Last Chancers set, there was a character named "Shiv" who had a very native American look, so the the theme isn't out of the question.

careful! more people (rather than just me) might use him for Marbo!

Of course, I was that Terrorist in Counterstrike who shot all the hostages at the start of the game. :chrome:

carlisimo
13-02-2012, 03:36
Having read through this thread I have one question- It seems that the general consensus is that if we (gaming community) are making a 40k army, stay away from icky things, i.e. Nazis, derogatory cultural references, and porno daemons. While I understand this viewpoint in the interests in keeping the peace, I am still wondering about the validity of this standpoint. Perhaps I'm WAY off base, but here's why: Historical Wargaming, or even RISK(tm). If you are playing RISK are you a bad person if you prefer to play the Axis forces? Should you feel guilty for painting up some awesome SS models to play DUST?

There isn't really a consensus. There are two aspects to the discussion. One is as you describe, with one side's mantra being basically "don't offend." Hardly anyone is actually offended by reminders that the Romans conquered their homelands, so those references are okay. Even Mongolians are okay these days. Nazis not so much, especially in the US and Europe. If you were playing 40k in China, you'd want to avoid making an Imperial Japanese-inspired army, and conquistadors might not go over well in Latin America. Historical wargames are different because that community knows you can be into WWII German military history without being a Nazi sympathizer... and because they know those armies belong in the game.

Which brings me to the second issue, one side of which says: don't transport historical armies into the 41st millennium. References and inspiration are fine, but the closer you get to duplicating the original, the less you're participating in the 40k universe. Do I really want my Eldar warhost to take on the USSR? No, not really. There's no possibility for a good 40k story there. I could battle against an Imperial Guard army from a planet settled by descendents of what are obviously Russians, but if they're exact copies I'm going to feel like I'm in a Syfy b-movie that involves time travel (but with fewer babes).

The first issue is close to consensus, with just a few hold-outs. There's more disagreement on the second issue.

Sunyavadin
13-02-2012, 09:02
Hell, Redemptionists are just KKK who've discovered you can dye your ghost costumes ...

StratManKudzu
13-02-2012, 16:03
To reiterate the most valid point made by carlisimo, I feel any historical army is good to get inspiration from but develop the army in universe, give it a planet, a history, personality, etc. Take the visual cues of history but make a 40k army. The Nazi imagery is always a hot button issue (IMO it should be) make your guard army in accurate WWII German camo and inspired gear but leave the striking red/white/black flags and swastikas off. Furthermore guard armies are really the only army where the line is not black and white between historical influence effecting in-universe feel. I mean USSR Eldar would be obviously out of place.

AndrewGPaul
13-02-2012, 16:17
I once saw photos of a Space Marine army done in olive drab with white Allied Stars on the shoulders and WW2 GI helmeted heads. Looked quite cool.

Charistoph
13-02-2012, 21:22
To reiterate the most valid point made by carlisimo, I feel any historical army is good to get inspiration from but develop the army in universe, give it a planet, a history, personality, etc. Take the visual cues of history but make a 40k army. The Nazi imagery is always a hot button issue (IMO it should be) make your guard army in accurate WWII German camo and inspired gear but leave the striking red/white/black flags and swastikas off. Furthermore guard armies are really the only army where the line is not black and white between historical influence effecting in-universe feel. I mean USSR Eldar would be obviously out of place.

Indeed. The worlds of the Imperium run the gambit of the level of development. If it's possible for mongol hordes to be the force of one planet, it's entirely possible for another to be covered by Lakota, 1930 Germans, or 21st century Americans, as well as the "normal" Imperium world.

carldooley
13-02-2012, 21:30
I once saw photos of a Space Marine army done in olive drab with white Allied Stars on the shoulders and WW2 GI helmeted heads. Looked quite cool.

and you could get away with that by saying that you are recreating Fallout3 ala (DLC) Operation Anchorage.

Spooky999
13-02-2012, 21:32
I think to be honest the biggest bone of contention to a western audience would be Nazi troops i think your pretty safe having a native american style 40k army

AndrewGPaul
14-02-2012, 08:53
and you could get away with that by saying that you are recreating Fallout3 ala (DLC) Operation Anchorage.

Not sure why I'd need to "get away with it", and other than that, I don't know what you're talking about. :)

Freakiq
14-02-2012, 09:35
In our group the general rule tends to be that it's ok to have a modern theme as long as it isn't stronger than the 40k theme.

For example, it's OK to a guard army with an SS-theme but it's not ok to have a Nazi army with lasguns.
SS-style helmets are ok, as are lightning shaped letters but not swastikas or references to the holocaust.

In the end common sense goes a long way.


EDIT: Darn, seems I just echoed what stratmankudzu (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?332963-How-are-real-life-themed-armies-looked-at-by-the-community&p=6087134&viewfull=1#post6087134) said.

yabbadabba
14-02-2012, 10:46
I think lines are getting blurred here.

Nazism is a political ideology, not a form of military practice. Both the Wehrmacht and SS were outstanding armies of their time and continued to perform beyond expectations even when all the theory said they shouldn't. Funnily enough in WW2 most of the major armies had units that performed similarly on the battlefield. The problem occurs when political ideology over took military practice.

Our post-WW2 hangover has encouraged us to blur the lines between Nazi and German, between military and politics. This is historically incorrect and politically naive. Also, to say that its ok to field something like the SS in a historical context because people understand you don't support Nazi values, but its not in a 40K game is rather dismissive and denigrating of the 40K community. Finally let's remember that the Nazis subsumed a lot imagery including the Swastika which is an incredibly ancient symbol (at least 3000 years old) with a variety of meanigns and uses.

Its the player that matters. An idiot is an idiot no matter if his army is painted like the Ultramarines, SS Das Reich or the US Marines. You just avoid these people.

As for your themed army - go for it, do what you want :D

Freakiq
14-02-2012, 11:01
Our post-WW2 hangover has encouraged us to blur the lines between Nazi and German, between military and politics. This is historically incorrect and politically naive. Also, to say that its ok to field something like the SS in a historical context because people understand you don't support Nazi values, but its not in a 40K game is rather dismissive and denigrating of the 40K community. Finally let's remember that the Nazis subsumed a lot imagery including the Swastika which is an incredibly ancient symbol (at least 3000 years old) with a variety of meanigns and uses.

Hence why I differentiated between using SS helmets and swastikas.

If you're making a Hindu-themed army you might be able to use a sun-cross pattern on the commnder's cloak.
If you have a drab army with red flags I'd stay away from using it if I were you.

yabbadabba
14-02-2012, 11:11
If you have a drab army with red flags I'd stay away from using it if I were you. Why? The warning signs should be if the history/background of the army reflects the values and behaviours of the politics.

As I said, its the player, not the army.

Freakiq
14-02-2012, 11:22
Why? The warning signs should be if the history/background of the army reflects the values and behaviours of the politics.

As I said, its the player, not the army.

Sure, but most people will judge an army based on its looks rather than ask the owner for an interview about their personal beliefs.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-02-2012, 11:45
Also, to say that its ok to field something like the SS in a historical context because people understand you don't support Nazi values, but its not in a 40K game is rather dismissive and denigrating of the 40K community.

I think the main difference is that if you are , for instance, playing a WWII game everyone knows that it features Nazis. 40k doesn't (at least not directly) so if you go out of your way to create a replica it comes across differently than if you are using an army that naturally fit into the game you are playing. Of course, most of the armies in 40k are pretty horrible if you look at what they actually do/are/believe in, but I really do think the key thing is whatever or not you are strongly drawing on potentially offensive imagery that is otherwise out of context with the game.


But I do agree with you that the real problem (if there is one) is with the player, not with the army. I just think that the "same army" will give different first impressions depending on what game it's used in.

orkmiester
14-02-2012, 11:53
Sure, but most people will judge an army based on its looks rather than ask the owner for an interview about their personal beliefs.

what yabbadabba said was quite true- as a historian i quite agree...

but what you say here is also true- 'but' jumping to immediate conclusions about an army just by its looks is a bit silly in my opinion. I'm sure most would be only too happy to point out their inspiration. It never hurts to ask:eyebrows:

more humble views:angel:

Ozorik
14-02-2012, 11:55
It someone turned up with an ork army that looked like a bunch of Braveheart extras and was full of ‘see you jimmy’ hats then I might be a bit annoyed.


It wouldn't bother me, largely because Braveheart has about as much similarity to real Scottish history as star wars. Anyone with a Braveheart style army will just provide me with an opportunity to mock them :).


No they're not. At least, not from the eyes down. :)

Personally, what bugs me is when it's a real-life stereotype (or something more accurate) just dropped onto slottabases. For example, using Perry or Wargames Factory 19th century British as Praetorians..

Alternatively you could just like the models or their overall aesthetics. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using historical figures for 40k/fantasy armies as long as they are reasonable approximation as to what they are meant to represent. Whats the point of making them 'grim dark' if they don't need to be and when they will actually detract from their appeal? Historical figures also have the happy bonus of being substantially cheaper than GW.

As to the OP use whatever you like, most themes are completely safe while some will be depend upon your group's sensibilities and grasp of historical realities.

Freakiq
14-02-2012, 11:56
but what you say here is also true- 'but' jumping to immediate conclusions about an army just by its looks is a bit silly in my opinion. I'm sure most would be only too happy to point out their inspiration. It never hurts to ask:eyebrows:


I agree with you, it's just that most people aren't that rational.

If played at a tournament many players would probably report it to the judges for an easy win.

Latro_
14-02-2012, 12:03
At the end of the day they are toy soldiers, nothing actually happens if you are 'offended' so just chucking that out there. There are numerous computer games where you kill or play as nazis, the point here though is that you make a concious choice to do that, you go into it knowing you are gonna be taking that role with like minded people.

With 40k you are bringing an army and potentially putting that up again anyone making the concious choice to play 40k, not that they'll be up against a theme in the game they have views against/be offended by. If they were playing flames of war which is a ww2 based wargame, as with the computer games they are entering into a concious decision to play against nazis and usa etc..

So you are potentially gonna offend someone at some point because they are only going into the game with the assumption they are playing against an army with the established 'fluff' GW puts out.

You could do an army of marines with justin beiber masks and it'll potentially 'offend' someone because people are individuals.

So although the native american theme will probably be cool with 99.9% of people, you cannot guarantee it will be with 100%. If you think its an acceptable risk then go for it, just remember... nothing actually happens when you are offended :D

edit: also i'm surprised this threat has not been closed yet :s

AndrewGPaul
14-02-2012, 12:37
Alternatively you could just like the models or their overall aesthetics.

I thought that was what I said. I, personally, don't like those armies. For me, it has to look like a 40K army. :) To me, it does need to be "grim dark" - the appeal is the whole look and feel of the setting.

There's plenty of latitude - Elysian Drop Troopers, Mordian Iron Guard and Valhallan Ice Warriors all look like 40K forces, while historical miniatures of modern paratroopers, USMC in dress uniforms or WW2 Red Army don't. It's little things like using standard-looking equipment - the muzzle of a lasgun, laspistol or lascannon has been pretty much the same since 1st edition days, for example - or eagle cap badges or belt buckles.

If someone else disagrees, fair enough. I'm not the Great Judge of Wargaming, after all.

baphomael
14-02-2012, 13:45
Hell, Redemptionists are just KKK who've discovered you can dye your ghost costumes ...

Not really. The Catholic Church had pointy hoods long before the KKK existed. Visit spain during Holy Week and you'll see processions of pointy-hooded clerics carrying floats through the streets.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/471277371_06d1a99e30.jpg See, there's some.

Arnizipal
14-02-2012, 13:48
This thread is veering dangerously close to P&R...
Mind your step our we'll be forced to move it.


Arnizipal,

++ The Warseer Moderation Team ++

RandomThoughts
15-02-2012, 03:10
Having read through this thread I have one question- It seems that the general consensus is that if we (gaming community) are making a 40k army, stay away from icky things, i.e. Nazis, derogatory cultural references, and porno daemons. While I understand this viewpoint in the interests in keeping the peace, I am still wondering about the validity of this standpoint. Perhaps I'm WAY off base, but here's why: Historical Wargaming, or even RISK(tm). If you are playing RISK are you a bad person if you prefer to play the Axis forces? Should you feel guilty for painting up some awesome SS models to play DUST?
That being said, I'm still not planning to make an army based on Cambodian Death Squads. I simply want to ask if there is a difference. In every culture there is conflict at some point, and in every conflict a winner and a loser. Concepts like "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys" are based on perspective and nationality. If we are as concerned about never offending anyone with our army concepts as we say we are, then why stop with "No Nazis"? It could be said that the Atillan Rough Rider models are racist stereotypes right out of the box. Likewise, I have personally heard people calling Tallarn guardsmen "towel-heads" based on their appearance. If I were to model my army after the Taliban or Khmer Rouge or Spetznas or IRA am in as dangerous waters as the guy with the swastikas painted on his Khorne Berzerkers? (True story from my town)

I think the answers to your question are already in your own post. There's a huge difference between "inspired by"/"based on"/"is like" and "is exactly".

Space Vikings - no problem, Space Wolves. Space Romans, Space Mongols - no problem, Ultramarines and White Scars. Space Nazis - no problem either, the old Codex Imperial Guard left no doubt that it took heavy inspiration there. Just look at Commisars in SS uniforms - you won't even need the old artwork that based directly on old Nazi propaganda posters. But the essential thing is this: They were like Nazis, just as the Talarn are like Taliban.

So, what's the difference. Certainly not a question of good/bad guys, as you make it out, as I would look at Imperial Guard infantry with small Starspangled Banners on their shoulders exactly the same way as I would look at Imperial Guard infantry with small Swastikas on their shoulders. Neither of them belong in the 40K universe, the same way an army of Blood Angels has no place in a historical wargame.

Imagine guys showing up at the games story with Borg count-as-Necrons or Borg count-as-Admech, Klingons count-as-Orks or Federation Soldiers in red and yellow jumpsuits count-as-Tau. Imagine someone with an army of Star Wars Stormtroopers count-as-Spacemarines, with Lord Vader as a Chaplain and the Emperor as one of the uber-librarians. Or how about X-Men count-as-whatever. Don't get me wrong, some of them would be awesome (if done right), but neither of them has a place inside the 40K background.

I recently dabbled in Infinity, and what really made me pause was historic figures like Minamoto Musashi, Sun Tzu and Jean d'Arc forced into a game of space battle in the year 2200. I don't care that they are kind of clones, they still feel wrong.

And then there are of course the people that actually lost family and friends in the holocaust or in an IRA bombing or in Afghanistan, and that will take it personal of somebody brings the real world perpetrators into their game of make-believe science fiction escapism.

RandomThoughts
15-02-2012, 03:16
And BTW, any 40k player who thinks theyre NOT playing "Fascists in Space!!!!" is nothing short of delusional! (ok maybe not actually delusional, but kidding themselves at least..)

You talking about the Imperium of Man? Then we are in agreement.
Or you talking about everyone in the 40K universum, including my original craftworld? Then we are not... :D