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Lance Tankmen
10-02-2012, 09:27
i doubt anyone uses it, seeing as how it leaves your lord with nothing, any hope they lower it to 75 pts rather than 100 in future books?

Avalanche
10-02-2012, 09:30
Even if they did, if you want a runefang there's no reason not to take Kurt.

EDIT: The reason no one uses it is not that it is a bad weapon. I'd even say it is worth its 100 points. But you have to take it on a model with only 3 attacks.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-02-2012, 09:33
A weapon with such powerful abilities as the Runefang needs to be a lot of points, though with the profiles of the characters who can take it not being anything startling 75pts would probably be ok.

Wesser
10-02-2012, 10:27
It's a shame for such an Iconic item really. It's probably priced correct by itself, but since it can only be taken by one specific character I'd say it's not worth more than 50 pts. Even at that price it wouldnt be a no-brainer.

Personally I'm hoping the book brings back elector counts with build-in runefangs.

Askari
10-02-2012, 10:53
They could keep it at a 100pts, but not count it towards magic allowance. That way, it's still costed appropriately but you can still protect it's bearer.

Wesser
10-02-2012, 11:02
They could keep it at a 100pts, but not count it towards magic allowance. That way, it's still costed appropriately but you can still protect it's bearer.

Still its 100 pts to boost attacks of WS 5 and A3 guy. Noone would wanna do this... slash it by half at the very least or give it WS10 or something

Askari
10-02-2012, 11:35
I'd take it.

It's one of the most potent magic weapons in the game, and if I could take say... the Potion of Speed or Other Trickster's Shard with it, I probably would and it would become quite potent. I can easily get ASF/I10/+1A from the Lore of Light anyway.

For me the problem is more that my protection comes from, at best, a 1+ armour save for a 200+pt model. If I could take a Talisman of Preservation...

Lance Tankmen
10-02-2012, 12:09
i mean my friend plays empire, and in a fair fight against another human, example my bret lord with HK, only because of my +1 initiative do i often win because of HK he has no ward save, but reverse and if he does get to hit, all most all do and i only have a 6 ward save from the lady because he wasnt strong enough to invoke a 5+. The its a 50/50 duel, except i always roll 6's ;), then put him against a vampire lord... and hes toast everytime, or any other lord really...


edit: also i like the idea that its +100 just to give it to them but not make it be from magical points

Commodus Leitdorf
10-02-2012, 14:04
The weapon itself if fine but as others have said the GOTE isn't exactly a combat beast. When it comes to combat if he manages to hit once I call it a success.

GOTE are cheap LD 9, they have been since 6th and will continue to be so unless GW decides to do more with them in the next book.

Petey
10-02-2012, 15:06
They could keep it at a 100pts, but not count it towards magic allowance. That way, it's still costed appropriately but you can still protect it's bearer.

We really need a like button for posts. This has been my favorite idea for elector/runefang, since anyone thought it up.


Still its 100 pts to boost attacks of WS 5 and A3 guy. Noone would wanna do this... slash it by half at the very least or give it WS10 or something

What are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? It's totally worth its points and then some. The problem with it is conceptual for me. Why would the richest guy in the province not also have magic armor. It's fine that he a more political character and the stats dont make him godlike, but he should probably have more points for magic items in compensation.

Leth Shyish'phak
10-02-2012, 16:01
When I wrote my own Empire army book, [shameless plug] which you can see using the link in my signature, [/shameless plug] I made the runefang work a bit differently.

I decided to make it a part of the General's equipment options rather than the magic item list; it still counted as a magic weapon but didn't count towards his 100 points of magic items. I also reduced the cost to 25 points* and added a rule which let you take a unit of Greatswords as core for every runefang in the army (there was a limit to the number of runefangs, so that you couldn't more than actually exist; a purely fluff based restriction since I doubt anyone would try).

*Before anyone says this is too little, my rules for the General gave him an even worse statline than he already has.

DivineVisitor
10-02-2012, 16:56
When I wrote my own Empire army book, [shameless plug] which you can see using the link in my signature, [/shameless plug] I made the runefang work a bit differently.

I decided to make it a part of the General's equipment options rather than the magic item list; it still counted as a magic weapon but didn't count towards his 100 points of magic items. I also reduced the cost to 25 points* and added a rule which let you take a unit of Greatswords as core for every runefang in the army (there was a limit to the number of runefangs, so that you couldn't more than actually exist; a purely fluff based restriction since I doubt anyone would try).

*Before anyone says this is too little, my rules for the General gave him an even worse statline than he already has.

I think you should be able to upgrade the GotE to an Elector Count where he then comes with a Runefang as standard and still have 100 points avaliable. Though I think you should be able to have an Elector Count that can atcually have good Lord stats rather than the piddly ones were stuck with on a GotE.

theunwantedbeing
10-02-2012, 16:59
I think you should be able to upgrade the GotE to an Elector Count where he then comes with a Runefang as standard and still have 100 points avaliable. Though I think you should be able to have an Elector Count that can atcually have good Lord stats rather than the piddly ones were stuck with on a GotE.

So, minimum of ws6 and 4 attacks is good?

Banville
10-02-2012, 17:02
Empire have access to Beats Magic, yeah? Savage Beast of Horos anyone?

Leth Shyish'phak
10-02-2012, 17:06
I don't see why Generals should have particularly good stats (other than leadership), they're commanders not frontline fighters.

Mr_Foulscumm
10-02-2012, 17:07
Well, they could always increase the item allowance points for the Elector Counts to 125pts. No need to make the weapon under priced after all. :)

popisdead
10-02-2012, 21:38
The problem I see with Rune Fangs is the ignore armour sword is 50 points? That already with buffs and higher Str on heroes it's not uncommon to see -3 or -4 to armour. Making the 'no armour saves' only worth ~35 points to me. The auto wounding is similar.

So 100 points seems quite high for something of it's nature and I agree more that it's worth about 50 points especially these days.

theunwantedbeing
10-02-2012, 21:55
The problem I see with Rune Fangs is the ignore armour sword is 50 points? That already with buffs and higher Str on heroes it's not uncommon to see -3 or -4 to armour. Making the 'no armour saves' only worth ~35 points to me. The auto wounding is similar.

So 100 points seems quite high for something of it's nature and I agree more that it's worth about 50 points especially these days.

That's logical.
Although ignore armour save weapons are usually priced at 50pts

Vs To4 and a 1+ save
St4 ignore armour causes 0.5 wounds per hit
St6 on it's own causes 0.42 wounds per hit
St4 auto wound causes 0.17 wounds per hit
Vs To4 and a 2+ saves
St4 ignore armour causes 0.5 wounds per hit
St6 on it's own causes 0.56 wounds per hit
St4 auto wound causes 0.33 wound per hit

So, not a great deal different against the higher saves, but the lower the save gets the better that st6 is.
So why one costs 50pts of your item allowance while the other costs usually less than ten and doesn't eat up any allowance I don't know.

Auto-wound is usually priced at an even higher amount.
Despite being far less useful or damaging against anything barring absurdly high toughness things (like anything with flesh to stone on it, or the TK Sphinx).

So given how things get priced, 100pts for a runefang is entirely reasonable!
It should be more like over a hundred and be not usable by anyone :p

I agree that it should be more like 50-60pts if it can only be used by an Empire General with his hero level stats.

Lord Dan
10-02-2012, 23:29
I think it would be cool if generals had the same statline, with upgrades to represent their specialty. You could even make them like the old 6th ed bloodlines where they would have bonuses in one area while having weaknesses in another. For example:

Born Leader
+1 Ld and +3" ld bubble, -1 WS, -1S

Pampered Royalty
May take an additional 75 points in magic items. -1S, -1T, and must always decline challenges.

Grizzled Veteran
+1 WS, +1 A. Ld bubble reduced to 9".

Just some ideas.

sulla
11-02-2012, 00:11
i doubt anyone uses it, seeing as how it leaves your lord with nothing, any hope they lower it to 75 pts rather than 100 in future books?
A far better solution would be to keep it at 100pts but make it a magical equipment option in the elector count unit entry, much like the flag of the blood keep for blood knights in the VC book. That way electors could have up to 100pts of extra equipment plus your sword if you wanted to... very expensive and of dubious value but at least it makes a runefang viable IMO.

Lord Inquisitor
11-02-2012, 00:16
Judging by the trend for magic weapons in 8th, I would expect it to get more expensive and less useful. The magic weapons in the ogre book are painfully overpriced.

SilasOfTheLambs
11-02-2012, 08:47
Judging by the trend for magic weapons in 8th, I would expect it to get more expensive and less useful. The magic weapons in the ogre book are painfully overpriced.

The OnG one is decent and the vamp one could have some applications with the right build. However, the expense is likely to still be prohibitive if you want a protected character.

In the present book, an empire general as something other than your actual general, with a 1+ save and a runefang, is a pretty low-cost way of dealing with high-T targets or armored ones. This is particularly true if you're running, say, a pope wagon or a large number of priests (for the buff spells), or even a beast wizard. Imagine a savage-beast-of-horrosed general with a runefang, and smile :)

Drongol
11-02-2012, 14:39
I'd like to see a specific choice for "Elector Count" that comes with a Runefang, but that's me. Generals can stay as cheap Ld 9 with perhaps some unit buffs, but an Elector Count really should have quite a bit of good gear on him, even if he's not the greatest fighter in the world.

It'd also come in handy for approximating the Counts that doubtless won't all make it into the book, or making "historical" Electors.

Gaargod
11-02-2012, 15:46
Few options are possible.

a) Give GotE, say, 150pts of magical equipment available. They're not hitty people, but they are very well equipped.

b) Have a separate entry (or upgrade to GotE) for Elector Counts. Elector Counts automatically come with a runefang (and, for the sake of fluff, put a max on the number of Elector Counts possible in the army!). Elector Counts can also have reasonable, if not great, stats. Ws6 A4 is not unfair - I know they are sometimes displayed as weak etc but they are also the heirs to great family houses. Anyone who's read any greek mythology knows that the kings and heroes of the greek age of heroes always come from royal/divine lines, and are appreciably stronger than normal schmucks (and better looking. And faster. And taller. And longer living. Not to mention inheriting lands, money and often even divinely crafted armaments. They basically win the genetic lottery). It's totally not unfair to represent Elector Counts, at least the ones who would actually turn up to a battle, as being more of this type - the super-well bred and trained-from-birth warrior lords, more than pampered.
Could also give them some funky special rules and/or allow them to manipulate the organization charts. I.e. make greatswords core (or one unit core), or allow all heroes/lords to take an extra 25pts of magical items, or whatever really. Combine that with a built-in runefang and the normal 100pts of magical items, and they would actually be a seriously tempting choice, considering they wouldn't be much more than 200pts basic.

c) Make the runefang cheaper/better. Perhaps if it included a 5++ in the price (representing it's unearthly power/super blocking ability, I don't know! Something).


Personally, as you may have guessed, I like option b. Allows them to do more interesting things, whilst at the same time keeping GotE as a cheap lord choice.

RanaldLoec
12-02-2012, 00:37
Runefangs are fine.

My gripe is smaller and far more annoying.

Your the emperor of the richest most powerful human realm in the world with a big ass funky hammer, top level protective charm, richly gilded full plate armour

But you can't afford a f#%?+!" sheild :wtf:

Same goes for Kurt Helborg big fancy laurels, huge magic sword, fancy armour but a sheild would make him over the top.

GW give me a bloody sheild please.

The Low King
12-02-2012, 02:45
If you have a shield you cant do all the gesturing required of a leader.


I like the idea of an elector count upgrade, maybe +50 points for elector count +100 for the runefang.

Also, with the mathhammer on the previous page: Do the same maths against a T5 rerollable 1+ AS character like a dwarf lord or Chaos Lord. Even better if that character has a GW as you will strike before them.

vinush
12-02-2012, 14:51
I like the idea of having GotE with the option to become an Elector Count complete with Runefang for an increase in points.

THE \/ince

sulla
19-02-2012, 04:13
Runefangs are fine.

My gripe is smaller and far more annoying.

Your the emperor of the richest most powerful human realm in the world with a big ass funky hammer, top level protective charm, richly gilded full plate armour

But you can't afford a f#%?+!" sheild :wtf:

Same goes for Kurt Helborg big fancy laurels, huge magic sword, fancy armour but a sheild would make him over the top.

GW give me a bloody sheild please.You thnk you've got it bad, picture this;

You're the 6000 year old king of your people in exile. A powerful sorceror and warrior with thousands of years of experience and yet... you traipse around in tinfoil heavy armour and you still haven't found a way of protecting yourself from magic weapons. Malekith has it far worse than your Emperor.

LaughinGremlin
19-02-2012, 04:30
Generals only need good leadership? Who wants a skulking leader who is behind his battle units, possibly in a tiny bunker unit? It's a waste of points which are precious. It is too expensive to only use him for his LD. In this game called Warhammer, a human character is forced by rule to be in the front of its unit; therefore leadership is not the only thing that a general should have.

knightime98
19-02-2012, 04:56
Two problems with the Runefang.
1 - it is so very situational. A few posters noted the very few situations where it is worthwhile (example against a dwarf lord with reroll 1+ armor save).. How likely is it that you will be playing a Dwarf player AND that Dwarf player is playing a Lord AND that lord has that set up. If the stars align up just right, it works.

2 - The price tag of the thing is too much. You sacrifice so much for so little. It's over pointed by twice. Even if it were 50 points, I'd still have second thoughts about it. Remember, only 3A for which you may miss once or twice.

I think the highly situational bit does it for me. It's too much of a gamble to take especially in a tournament environment.

Gorbad Ironclaw
19-02-2012, 10:01
Few options are possible.

a) Give GotE, say, 150pts of magical equipment available. They're not hitty people, but they are very well equipped.

Better than Elf Princes, Dwarf Kings, Chaos Lords, Vampires Lords, etc. ? All of them with better access to magic and way longer to accumulate said items. It just seems wrong to give the GotE more magic items than other lords. It doesn't really fit the feel, nor make a lot of sense. Of course, you could certainly write it so it fits, but it would still be a little odd and it's a bad fix for a single magic item as odds are it will be spent on other things at least as often.

Wesser
19-02-2012, 10:28
At the end of the day I've never seen or heard of anyone taking it except as a gimmick.

Heck the Skaven Fellblade which is on page 1 in good book of glasscannons sees more use. All because it can be put on a worthwhile character

theunwantedbeing
19-02-2012, 10:44
I like the idea of having GotE with the option to become an Elector Count complete with Runefang for an increase in points.

THE \/ince

Excellent idea!
Maybe he'd even allow extra bonuses like additional magical banners to represent his wealth and the fact that it'll be his army he is commanding as well.
The General allows an extra magical banner on a unit afterall.

Plus it frees up an item slot in the magical item allowance for the Empire so you haven't got the pointless "can only be taken by XXX" type items eating up one of the valuable 8-12 slots GW gives for magical items these days.

WarmbloodedLizard
19-02-2012, 11:07
knowing GW, they will raise the cost to 150pts. they just have absolutely no clue when it comes to item pricing. (or they want you to use models instead of items, so you have to buy more stuff, but even if this was their goal, they also failed.)

Leogun_91
19-02-2012, 11:08
I took the runefang regularly....when it was available to my orcs, it boosted a strong combat character. For empire, as said before, you boost a weak character made for Ld (if you wish a fighter you take a grandmaster).

Either allow it to boost the General in what he is used for as well (+1Ld, +6 Inspiring Presence, it is after all something anyone in the empire recognizes as a symbol for leadership) or make the item cheaper.

knightime98
19-02-2012, 18:35
Excellent idea!
The General allows an extra magical banner on a unit afterall.


Although, your statement on the surface is true. This is one of the weaknesses of the Empire. There are only 3 ways to have a magical banner in the Empire. Only one unit of knights can have a magical banner without any hitches. The second option is to place a magic banner on the BSB. Since Empire Captains are weak BSB's that is beyond dicey as you are now leaving your BSB open to be killed against nearly anything in a single round of combat. The 3rd and only other option to give a unit a magic banner is to take the GotE. Although this is fluffy, it is very hard to fit in any banner with a unit without a GotE which I do not regularly use.

DivineVisitor
19-02-2012, 18:59
Im firmly for the Runefang as standard equipment +100 points of magical items for the Elector Counts. Makes sense to me and i can't see it making them overpowered, on the other hand they'd actually get some use which would be good considering how legendary they are in the Warhammer World. Part of me wishes they'd go back to the days of item slots, make as badass a lord as you wish just be sure to pay the points.

vinush
19-02-2012, 19:59
How about if they made the Runefang an upgrade like Master of the Dead is for VC's?

It would then be One General of the Empire may be upgraded to an Elector Count with Runefang for X points. The character may not take any magic weapons.

At least that way it would see use, still leaves the item points for magic armour, etc. and could not be abused by including several Elector Counts with runefangs in one army.

THE \/ince

T10
19-02-2012, 21:05
The Runefang and the Elector Counts are a special case. Firstly, the Runefangs are powerful non-unique items, and the Elector Counts themselves are limited but not unique characters. While I don't see a problem with giving them a somewhat limited stat-line in keeping with their role as politicians as well as generals, I would like to see some options to reflect the varied nature of the Imperial principalities, city states and provinces. In a sense the current army book does this by allowing you to take a General of the Empire as the army general and in so doing you get to upgrade a single state troop option with a magical banner. Presumably an army of Nuln could be represented by an army containing a unit of Handgunners wth a magical banner (whee.) and their "Elector Count", a General of the Empire with a Runefang. But it's not very spectacular.

I think the Vampire Counts army book has included some interesting innovations in that they include the Banner of the Blood Keep as a unit upgrade that takes the place of the unit's magical standard, and the Master of the Dead upgrade available to exactly one Necromancer in the army. Surely must be a way to rekindle interest in the Elector Count/Runefang/Griffon trinity?

Just throwing some ideas around here:

An army can include up to one Elector Count (what the hell, let's make this a separate option form the Empire General) that must be the army general if he is included. Give him the basic human figher-jock hero statline, with 3 Wounds instead of 2 and let him chose to increase one of WS, BS, A or Ld by +1. As an Elector Count he comes with the Runefang by default and can he can take one each of magical armour, talismans or enchanted items worth up to 50 points total.

Basic points cost? I figure 150 points isn't too far off the mark. That's 30 point discount off the current cost of 180 points for General of the Empire with no other equipment. I think the lack of freedom of customization is worth that much.

Also, putting model/unit specific magic items into their upgrades section (or their default equipment, as above) allows for keeping more of the traditional magical items in the book while keeping to the aparent limit of 8-9 magical items. It seems to me that one Empire Battle Wizard should have the opportunity to take the Armour of Tarnus. :)

Manling
20-02-2012, 07:53
Runefangs are fine its just the hero stats that blow. if im running a big points army a GotE with a fang will do well in units of knights as a steamroller. If he was at least on par with a Bret Lord as far as attacks he would be brutal

ihavetoomuchminis
20-02-2012, 09:53
It's better to field Kurt Helborg ^_^. THat guy boosted with the Birona's warptime is a beast.

m1acca1551
20-02-2012, 12:35
To make a runefang worth taking you have to make the wielder more aggresive or make it an item outside normal magic items allowance.

Creating a Lord level character Elector Count would do this fine, but does not create a good enough reason to take one over a cheaper GOTE. Elector counts should have specific rules depending on what province they hail from.
- Stirland; well known for its low tech regiments, spearmen come with shields for free and archers are a point cheaper.
- Nuln; Engineers are cheaper as the Elector has access to the gunnery school to call on.
- Averland; Known for it's horses Knights are x amount cheaper
- Ostland; Takes the brunt of chaos invasions so there troops are menatly tougher and add +1 LD
etc etc.

For those who wish to take a standard GOTE he is still available with access to magic items just not a runefang.

Petey
20-02-2012, 15:50
At the end of the day I've never seen or heard of anyone taking it except as a gimmick.

Heck the Skaven Fellblade which is on page 1 in good book of glasscannons sees more use. All because it can be put on a worthwhile character

I take umbrage at anyone calling a skaven worthwhile. :shifty:

BlackPawl
20-02-2012, 16:35
Two problems with the Runefang.
1 - it is so very situational. A few posters noted the very few situations where it is worthwhile (example against a dwarf lord with reroll 1+ armor save).. How likely is it that you will be playing a Dwarf player AND that Dwarf player is playing a Lord AND that lord has that set up. If the stars align up just right, it works.

2 - The price tag of the thing is too much. You sacrifice so much for so little. It's over pointed by twice. Even if it were 50 points, I'd still have second thoughts about it. Remember, only 3A for which you may miss once or twice.

I think the highly situational bit does it for me. It's too much of a gamble to take especially in a tournament environment.


There are several things except a dwarf lord where a runfang is good against: an empire steamtank, T8 monsters like the tomb kings have, anyone with a good armor save and the dawnstone amulett etc.

All swords and magic items are situational: a dispel scroll against a dwarf or Teclis HE army is useless - should it be cheaper for that reason?

I would also find it nice if I could use the fellblade AND an ward save on my warlord (and I could claim that the warlords are very mighty skaven with more clanrats in their clan than the empire has people, so they should have access to good weapons and protection ...).




I take umbrage at anyone calling a skaven worthwhile. :shifty:

Yeah, Skaven Warlords are real combat monsters and even bloodthirsters and Vampire Lords fear them ...
:eyebrows:



So it is Ok how it is, you pay for the option that you can do damage where no one expects it but you are also vulnerable for it ... that's the price for it.