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Commissar Davis
10-02-2012, 21:59
Quick bit of background.

Had a Guard army, sold it for SM, sold it for Guard.

I am now having difficulties with my guard army on turn 4, granted I have only played two games with it so far, but I am trying to work out where I am going wrong.

First game was kill points, I lost 5-7 to Eldar. Got out flanked and couldn't wipe out the 3 walkers and hornets before the game ended. They were left with 3 fire dragons, a walker and a hornet... but had managed to kill off 3 Chimaera, 2 Lascannon heavy weapons teams and had the remnants of two of the transported units run off the board. :mad:

Second Game capture and control. Did ok till the Terminators dropped, they soaked up everything I threw at them, and then when on to maul the combined squad I had on my objective. Luckly the Heavy weapon teams was there to contest, but the team that finally made it to the other side got filleted, and pushed off the objective (Chim wasn't going upstairs). Da was left with Beil (sp) 1 Assault termi squad and 5 marines. I was left with one Chim, the remnants of a Platoon HQ, remnants of the combined squad, remnants of an infantry squad and both Lascannon HW squads. :cries:

Both games played at 1.5k points.

Hq p pistol and p fist

3 melta guns

Vox

Transport with auto Canon and heavy stubber and H Bolter and Extra armour

Planoon lead with p weapon and b gun. 3 snipers and vox

Two units of auto Canon with g launcher and vox sgt with p weapon and b pistol

hwt * 2 with lascannon

Platoon leader with p weapon and b pistol. 3 g launcher and vox

Transport with auto cannon and h stubber h Bolter

Two units with g launcher and vox sgt with b pistol and p weapon

Transport with a cannon and h stubber

Two armoured sentinels with lascannon and hunter killers

Malcador MBT with 3 lascannon and h stubber

Some helpful advice please.

Bunnahabhain
10-02-2012, 22:21
Firstly, I'd have a look in the tatics forum, especially the Guard tactica there.

From looking at your list, I can see there are a whole load of sub optimal choices in there, mainly spending loads of points on added extras that don't help the units much, but mean you don't have enough units. Comment in italics.

The HHq p pistol and p fist not needed
3 melta guns, Vox
Chimera, auto Canon, heavy stubber, Hbolter, Extra armour extra armour and stubber not needed

Planoon command power weapon, bolt gun, 3 snipers and vox Sniper rifles belong on ratlings. All other special weapons are better here
Two Squads, auto Canon, grenade launcher, p weapon, b pistol Power weapon and bolt pistol not needed. If you want them, use a 30 man combined squad with commissar
hwt * 2 with lascannon

Platoon leader, p weapon, b pistol. 3 g launcher, vox Power weapon and bolt pistol not needed
cHimera, auto cannon , h stubber, h Bolter Stubber not needed

Two Squads g launcher, b pistol, p weaponPistols and power weapons again
Chimera, autocannon h stubber and the stubber again

Two armoured sentinels with lascannon and hunter killers Bad set up, Very expensive for what you get.

Malcador MBT with 3 lascannon and h stubber

Back of envelope calculations says you're wasting about 10-15% of you points on really bad units and upgrades. Changing those should help no end.

Commissar Davis
10-02-2012, 22:30
Some of the Items are for the sake of points.
My HQ has been successful with that load out (killed a termi with nothing in return in hth), as have heavy stubbers and Snipers. The Power weapons, hunter killers and extra amour are the left overs, I dont have enough stuff yet to fill the gaps or an idea really on what to put the points on... it's a bit of a WIP.

Tactics:

Blob sits back with lasconnons, Platoon HQ with snipers sits slightly forward but within 12.

Armour Sentinels flank and rear of the Malcador head out.

HQ doesn't stray to further than 12 from blob unless there is a real threat that needs them.

Transported units go out and hunt.

Project2501
10-02-2012, 22:54
Stop thinking about 'setting up shop' and then hoping things will turn out ok for you. Plan ahead better. Do not be a reactive player, be proactive (not related to the acne cleansing products, all rights reserved). If your enemy has units that might be showing up Emperor knows where and when, keep it in mind from the get-go. Don't send one piddly unit to claim an objective, you're the IG, send hundreds (exaggeration, but point remains the same). Firepower is your goal in every game, the more and higher the calibre, the better. When all else fails, again, drown them in bodies.

Also, as Bunna pointed out, refer to the tactics and army list subforums.

Kevlar
10-02-2012, 23:23
Both games played at 15k points.


If I played a game at 15k points I wouldn't get out of turn 1.

ehlijen
10-02-2012, 23:37
Hq p pistol and p fist
- Pricey, I'd stick to one of the pistol or fist. If you want both, you'll also need carapace, medics and/or bodyguards to make the most of the assault potential.

3 melta guns

Vox
- I personally don't find vox to be worth it, but that's opinion.

Transport with auto Canon and heavy stubber and H Bolter and Extra armour
- Try multilasers. They're cheaper and actually more potent against the likes of terminators. Take either extra armour or a stubber. Both is pricey and a little crosspurpose; extra armour is mostly used to keep your transports from being bogged down. A stubber will only help if you're going too slow to truly benefit from the armour.

Planoon lead with p weapon and b gun. 3 snipers and vox
- make it a bolt pistol or drop the power sword. If you spend the power weapon points, you'll need the extra attack to make those S3 hits count. Snipers are ok in addition to a heavy weapon (except mortar), but not instead of one.

Two units of auto Canon with g launcher stg with p weapon and b pistol
- bolt pistols aren't that great, but as points fillers ok I guess

hwt * 2 with lascannon
- very pricey and very vulnerable. They can work, but you must deploy them wisely. I personally find sticking the lascannon into my command squads to work better as I get to split fire and not lose three of them to even token return fire.

Platoon leader with p weapon and b pistol. 3 g launcher and vox
- why do only your command squads have vox? Drop it or give it to all infantry squads as well. Vox needs both the order giving and recieving unit to have it or it doesn't work.

Transport with auto cannon and h stubber h Bolter

Two units with g launcher stg with b pistol and p weapon

Transport with a cannon and h stubber

Two armoured sentinels with lascannon and hunter killers
- again, pricey AT units. Do you face lot's of tanks? Or do you just like the look of lascannon (can't blame you if you do)

Malcador MBT with 3 lascannon and h stubber - isn't that a superheavy?

Commissar Davis
10-02-2012, 23:38
Whoops... 1.5k :rolleyes: fixed

All units have vox. Either fixing or now fixed

Commissar Davis
11-02-2012, 00:10
Hq p pistol and p fist
- Pricey, I'd stick to one of the pistol or fist. If you want both, you'll also need carapace, medics and/or bodyguards to make the most of the assault potential.

3 melta guns

Vox
- I personally don't find vox to be worth it, but that's opinion.

That maybe an option when I get more models... presently, what is listed is what I've got.


Transport with auto Canon and heavy stubber and H Bolter and Extra armour
- Try multilasers. They're cheaper and actually more potent against the likes of terminators. Take either extra armour or a stubber. Both is pricey and a little crosspurpose; extra armour is mostly used to keep your transports from being bogged down. A stubber will only help if you're going too slow to truly benefit from the armour.

Extra Armour is to make up points, its that or hunterkillers... or find something else to help make up the last 38 points.


Planoon lead with p weapon and b gun. 3 snipers and vox
- make it a bolt pistol or drop the power sword. If you spend the power weapon points, you'll need the extra attack to make those S3 hits count. Snipers are ok in addition to a heavy weapon (except mortar), but not instead of one.

This unit has been ok. 3+ 2+ saves are a bit of a pain, but they have generally hit and wounded so far... Your choice of heavy weapon?


Two units of auto Canon with g launcher stg with p weapon and b pistol
- bolt pistols aren't that great, but as points fillers ok I guess


hwt * 2 with lascannon
- very pricey and very vulnerable. They can work, but you must deploy them wisely. I personally find sticking the lascannon into my command squads to work better as I get to split fire and not lose three of them to even token return fire.

I am thinking of replacing these with Specials with meltas... but this is what I got to play with at the moment, and they have been ok... as you say, a bit fragile but have not failed to put down enemy units (except terminators with TH + SS):shifty:


Platoon leader with p weapon and b pistol. 3 g launcher and vox
- why do only your command squads have vox? Drop it or give it to all infantry squads as well. Vox needs both the order giving and recieving unit to have it or it doesn't work.

They have, this has been fixed in the original list.


Transport with auto cannon and h stubber h Bolter

Two units with g launcher stg with b pistol and p weapon

Transport with a cannon and h stubber


Two armoured sentinels with lascannon and hunter killers
- again, pricey AT units. Do you face lot's of tanks? Or do you just like the look of lascannon (can't blame you if you do)


Hunter killers to make up points. Armoured Sentinels with Lascannon are one of my favourites for harassing and taking out enemy tanks. They seem to work well enough for me, I know they are a bit of a marmite unit.


Malcador MBT with 3 lascannon and h stubber - isn't that a superheavy?

Those that have seen the rules haven't complained. 2 Russ with the same fit would be the same points and would have slightly better armour and better versatility... but I love the Malcador :chrome: it has such charisma all of its own.

carldooley
11-02-2012, 01:04
That maybe an option when I get more models... presently, what is listed is what I've got.

a Guard player that doesn't proxy? is the world coming to an end?:p

remember that the meltagun has more utility than popping tanks - 4 in your command squads in chimeras is a killer of more than just tanks - EVERYTHING hates that sort of Guard paper unit (killer of rocks :shifty:).

also, I have had lots of fun with PBS + Marbo, give it a try - or if you want something with more staying power (even if it is easier to suppress) take a demolisher or executioner.

last thing I'll say is consider advisors. Officer of the fleet - look him up to mess with your opponents.

ehlijen
11-02-2012, 02:50
Sniper rifles that aren't ratlings are best used to assist heavy weapons. They already make your unit sit still but they take special slots rather than heavy slots, so they complement each other well.

Which heavy weapon you pair them with is pretty much up to which heavy weapon you think you'll need.
-HB: same range as snipers, meaning they assist it when lasguns often couldn't
-AC: usually wants to fire at vehicles, not a good task for snipers
-ML: Good for taking on most monstrous creatures where sniper rifles also shine. Blast shot allows for secondary mission profile if needed.
-LC: AP2 and rending guns seem like a good choice to go together if you have something expensive like terminators to shoot at.
-Mortar: If you really want to pin something, mortar + snipers is a good way to do it. 2 snipers + mortar are slightly cheaper than 4 snipers and more likely to cause wounds.

agurus1
11-02-2012, 02:58
comments in green


Quick bit of background.
Both games played at 1.5k points.

Hq p pistol and p fist
3 melta guns
Vox
(personally I run with a (counts as) stracken just because he is such a great support character (and tougher to boot!) you have enough men to totally benefit from his aura of counter attack and furious charge. If those terminators land too close, FRFSRF them and then receive the charge and laugh as you get 40 or so attacks because of counter-attack USR. also usually buff out my CCS with a medic, and either camo-cloaks (for a 3++ in cover) or carapace for extra toughness.)

Transport with auto Canon and heavy stubber and H Bolter and Extra armour (I think you should stick with a multi-laser and heavy flamer, and drop the armor for a dozer blade. If you take straken, advance this with your second blob once you feel you need to take the opponents objectives to give that squad furious charge)

Planoon lead with p weapon and b gun. 3 snipers and vox (personally I think you will get more bang for your buck with 3 plasma guns, bane of terminators, marines and MC alike)

Two units of auto Canon with g launcher and vox sgt with p weapon and b pistol
hwt * 2 with lascannon
(hmmm, I like the lascannon squads but I would buff up the combined squad to 3 squads and give them plasma and autocannon, and a commissar to keep them from running.)

Platoon leader with p weapon and b pistol. 3 g launcher and vox
Transport with auto cannon and h stubber h Bolter (I would make this the same as the CCS chimera)

Two units with g launcher and vox sgt with b pistol and p weapon (make it a 3 squad blob with a commissar, and either take flamers or meltas and take a commissar with PW and give both sergeants PW)

Transport with a cannon and h stubber (no sense taking this extra kill point)

Two armoured sentinels with lascannon and hunter killers (invest in a vendetta or two, or make these scouts)

Malcador MBT with 3 lascannon and h stubber (awesome model but sadly if you are looking for a stronger list, I think dual LRBT w/ lascannons is a better choice)


So we are talking something more like this (note this is off the top of my head, I don't have the codex infront of me but this should be pretty accurate)
HQ: 200
CCS w/ Straken, medic, vox, 2 melta: 200

Troops: 885
Platoon 1 (these are your objective huggers/ firebase, they can take a lot of grief if you stick them in cover, and can dish out a load of fire power!!!): 570
PCS w/ 3 plasma, vox: 80
3 Infantry Squads w/ commissar, vox, 3 plasma, 3 autocannons 280
2 x Lascannon HWS: 210

Platoon 2 (your go getters, use them to seize objectives and assault your opponent): 315
PCS w/ 3 meltas, vox: 65
3 Infantry Squads w/ commissar, vox, 3 meltas, 3 power weapons: 250

Fast Attack:

Heavy Support: 330
2x LRBTs w/ lascannons (330)
I never leave home with out my LRBT tag team... :angel:

~ 81 Infantry
~ 3 Tanks
~ 6 scoring units (also you can deploy your entire army except the tanks in DOW games :cool:)

Total so far is 1415 so that gives you some leeway for extra chimeras, maybe a commissar lord, or priest or SWS's for the aggressive squad.

Commissar Davis
11-02-2012, 06:52
Okay.....

As it seems that my list is probably at fault, what do people think about ditching the power weapons in the platoons and taking Al'rahem in the transported platoon and an Astropath with the HQ.... or adding a Primaris Psyker and adding him to the blob by ditching vehicle upgrades and power weapons either from blob or transported units?

Thoughts?

Commissar Vaughn
11-02-2012, 09:36
Ive never liked the idea of special characters and unless their called yarrick and playing a mahoosive game I would avoid them. It certainly gets annoying when this one guy is everywhere! :wtf:

Anyway: my suggestions are to ditch every upgrade you have that is not a gun, or a better gun. Thats all the voxs, power sticks, extra armour, the lot. And the HK's. Should save you , at a rough guess 150ish points? Have a Russ ;)

If this means you cant make up the points either proxy *shudder* or play at a smaller points value, no point handicapping yourself...unless you're into that sort of thing.

Commissar Davis
11-02-2012, 09:52
Ive never liked the idea of special characters and unless their called yarrick and playing a mahoosive game I would avoid them. It certainly gets annoying when this one guy is everywhere! :wtf:

Anyway: my suggestions are to ditch every upgrade you have that is not a gun, or a better gun. Thats all the voxs, power sticks, extra armour, the lot. And the HK's. Should save you , at a rough guess 150ish points? Have a Russ ;)

If this means you cant make up the points either proxy *shudder* or play at a smaller points value, no point handicapping yourself...unless you're into that sort of thing.

Haven't got a Russ... But have just found an old Commissar or something that looks close enough to be one. Don't really like to proxy or "counts as"... such things should really be forced to follow the first rule of proxying or "counts as".

LonelyPath
11-02-2012, 11:52
I agree in dropping all of those power weapons, vox, hunter killers, extra armour, etc. Just take guns as upgrades and it will free up quite a few points (over 100 in fact!), swap the lascannons on the sentinels for missiles (still expensive but work well in most situations) or autocannons, swap out the lascannons on the HWS for autocannons and put them inside blobbed infantry squads. They'll get a massive amount of ablative wounds and work quite reliably against anything that's not above AC12.

If you need power weapons, get a Commissar and stick him in a blobbed squad, they can be pretty darn lethal and cannot be picked out in assault if they are not a Lord Commissar. Speaking of Lord Comms, I do sometimes use one with a power fist with a squad of melta veterans and he's pretty good, usually moving aside to slow a enemy unit down for a turn while they assault him, giving the Vets a extra turn to shoot something (or if he's VERY lucky, surviving for 2 turns in assault, which has happened before now).

The Primaris Psyker is not that bad (though not usually taken in more competitive gaming, but who cares when you play for fun?) and I've had some good results with him, but I think the Command Squad (4 meltas/grenade launchers or 2 grenades and a missile launcher in a chimera) to be better value since they do not rely on psychic tests and have a good BS4.

I do recommend getting a Russ (or 2) at some point (upgraded to hull lascannons and no sponsons), don't bother to much with the other tanks unless it's a Hellhound kit which you can use as a Hellhound of Bane Wolf (the latter is ideal for killing almost all infantry being poison 2+ and AP3, but will be targeted time and again after it's done it's job once) or converted the ridiculously cheap Hydra (and they are VERY cheap for what they can do, I tend to take 2 in my lists if I can fit them in). Another option is the Russ Demolisher Kit, if you do not glue the turret barrel in place you can freely swap between the Demolisher, Executioner and Punisher whenever you want, even after painting. A word of note again about the Executioner, it is expensive, but with plasma sponsons it's the best things for killing any infantry on the table. Mine managed to destroy over 1000 points of a opponents' army single handed over the course of a game and unless picked out and destroyed in the opening 2 turns will quickly earn back it's points and more. They lack the power to take out tanks, but Guard have plenty of other things for that :)

Another favourite unit of mine is the SWS with 3 flamers, it may not seem much, but it can be a speed bump to keep you other models safe for another turn and 3 template weapons (plus those lasguns) can do some hurt before the plucky guys are stomped in to the ground. Plus the squad is cheap meaning you won't be paying much at all for that suicide squad.

agurus1
12-02-2012, 07:02
Ive never liked the idea of special characters and unless their called yarrick and playing a mahoosive game I would avoid them. It certainly gets annoying when this one guy is everywhere! :wtf:

Your lack of faith is disturbing ;) honesty special characters (especially the guard ones) are far from OP IMHO. And of course the straken in my Vostroyan army isnt actually straken, just a remarkably similar man in terms of prowess, die-hardiness, and valor but named Colonel Ivanovich Chuikov! Heck, the Vostroyan command officer even comes with a bionic arm :p and his rules given my vostroyans a definelty more "tough as nails/up in your face" fell that it used to have with the regimental doctrines system.

What is your actual beef with special characters beyond "where are all the carbon copies coming from?!1!1010101?!!!" lol

Commissar Davis
12-02-2012, 20:01
I have decided that some of my tactics are wrong. Had a game today and lost more due to bad set up than anything else.

Also decided I hate Storm boyz and Commandos led by Snikrot... and deathrollers.