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SilentTempest
12-02-2012, 02:45
Hi folks,

Quick background: The first edition I played was 7th. My main opponent was a balanced O&G list, played by an average player (competent, but no tactical genius, just the same as I consider myself to be). I chose Wood Elves for their speed and mobility. I trounced my mate repeatedly early on, until he learned to hold a line, and use magic to hurt me.

I really enjoyed that playstyle of maneuvering around to get that critcal charge, only striking when it suited me, but making sure I broke the unit on the charge, etc.

We stopped playing in 7th, just due to real life getting the better of us. With real life under control now, I'm interested in getting back into the game. I know 8th has come out, and understand it focuses more on big infantry units, which, obviously, my Wood Elves aren't.

I've had a look through the 8th ed book, trying to get my head around how Wood Elves are supposed to play and win these days. To be honest, I can't really work it out. It looks like my small units will be smashed on the big infantry units, which now get lots of attacks. I'll still strike first, but they'll get more attacks back.

Can anyone explain to me how Wood Elves have changed with 8th ed, and what playstyles have been found to continue to be competitive? I'm not a tournament player or anything, but it looks, from my brief glance, like Wood Elves have been somewhat hamstrung.

The Low King
12-02-2012, 02:50
expect a lot of replies along the lines of 'badly'.


Woodelves were weakened in this edition but in the hands of a good general can still do very well with armies built around Treekin, Dryads and Glade guard. Eternal guard can be good with some combos and i guess an army of MSU might be effective. Many people also underestimate woodelves and with the current meta rarely prepare for some of the combos in the book (compared to Dark elves where everyone needs to take something to kill hydras or unkillable dreadlords).

Woodelf archers are very good. Double ranks of gladeguard really hurt.

Doommasters
12-02-2012, 03:47
Wood Elves have a bit of a handicap in the new rules.

GG
Dryads
Treekin
Treemen
wardancers

These units are pretty good, nothing special mind you but they are solid. Our magic is pretty weak and we have no real way to boost it, so a Treeman ancient is never a bad choice. Biggest problems are hordes, huge hard to kill monsters and anything with flaming attacks. Another thing is that WE were a skirmish army but the new 8th rules make these units function poorly due the that many chances around both skirmishers and combat.

If you like the WE play them but don't expect a new book for at least 18 months or more.

tmarichards
12-02-2012, 07:16
Glade guard are by far the best choice in the book, around 70 of then makes for a decent core. Throw in a level 4, some dryads, a couple of eagles and some waywatchers and you've got a decent list.

Avoidance and shooting is the name of the game, bleed your opponent with dryads and keep focusing fire. Also, a very common mistake with Wood Elves is to deploy far back and mover backwards- your shooting gets better as you get close to him, an you'll need space to flee back into.

belgarath97
12-02-2012, 08:13
Most of the rules in 8th don't favor Wood Elves, but there are ways to play. I suggest you look at this blog, http://companyofthedamned.blogspot.com/ . The author runs Wood Elves as his primary army and spends a lot of time talking about units and tactics.

NerZuhl
12-02-2012, 08:16
Sadly this edition, a wood elf army is best off with few elves outside of the GG requirement.

MSU can work, but only for ranged units. If you are going to go with war dancers, then you want a pretty big unit, and even then they are more of a counter charge.

I have a distaste for the forest spirits, and prefer the elves. So with the couple of games I played, I noticed it is all about feeding the enemy units and picking where the battles will take place. I did manage a win against a very tough skaven list, but luck had a part in it. I also had some good results with Glade riders, but most people will advise against them.

Echunia
12-02-2012, 09:07
I think they're better than ppl give them credit for. You just have to think a little bit about your army.

As tmarichards said, one of the effective lists is built around mass glade guard and some redirectors (I strongly encourage you to watch his youtube battle reps to see how they play).

I have also seen very effective builds with 3 treemen, sure it's an autoloss vs dwarfs but other armies struggle to deal with them.

Doommasters
12-02-2012, 09:40
A tactic I find useful is to focus fire one flank and redirect there big blocks in the center. Once you have a flank open you can move your small units of GG around making it hard to charge themm and if they do it will take at least one turn to get back in the fight.

Sacrificing a small unit of GG or whatever to redirect an important unit and take them out of the game for two turns is good tactic. Try to avoid charging into combat unless the unit has taken a few bow shots first and even then try and get multiple units into the same combat. I am a big fan of getting the treeman into the front and the WD or Dryads into the flank after one or two rounds of shooting.

The aim of the game is to;

1) Out deploy
2) Clear a flank so you can get units into the flanks and force charges that take your opponents heavy hitters into unfavorable places
3) Don't be afraid to sacrifice small units for the greater good
4) Focus fire as much as possible on units you can take down, sometimes it just is not work shooting at their best unit when you can re-direct it all game.
5) Get the most out of S4 bow fire, its all about the movement phase and deployment....one mistake and it can be all over as we don't have units that can pull victory from the jaws of defeat.

If you get a draw you have done very well, a win and you are doing ahead of the curve.

SilentTempest
12-02-2012, 11:30
So really, what I'm hearing is that it's somewhere between really hard and impossible to do the light skirmishing list, with just enough shooting to encourage units to cross the board, that I used to, and I basically need to run heavy hitters like treekin, and a mountain of glade guard, to stand a decent chance. Failing that, tactical genius may earn me a draw, maybe.

That's a little disappointing. Even if I continued with Wood Elves, I'd probably have to buy half an army again to get it to a "reasonable" list. Might as well try something different and hold onto the WE until they get re-done. Even then, it'll be some pretty funky special rules that get them back to the playstyle that was the reason I bought them :S

NerZuhl
12-02-2012, 11:37
So really, what I'm hearing is that it's somewhere between really hard and impossible to do the light skirmishing list, with just enough shooting to encourage units to cross the board, that I used to, and I basically need to run heavy hitters like treekin, and a mountain of glade guard, to stand a decent chance. Failing that, tactical genius may earn me a draw, maybe.

That's a little disappointing. Even if I continued with Wood Elves, I'd probably have to buy half an army again to get it to a "reasonable" list. Might as well try something different and hold onto the WE until they get re-done. Even then, it'll be some pretty funky special rules that get them back to the playstyle that was the reason I bought them :S

Well, don't give up completely. I am still painting my elves in hopes of becoming better. Right now you are correct in that forest spirits represent the work horse of the army. But you can play the skirmish style lists still, just realize you are handicapped in this edition. Skirmishers got worse and are pretty awkward to move now.

Daniel36
12-02-2012, 11:48
I'd wait with Wood Elves until they get redone, perhaps buying and painting some of the models you like so that you have a painted list as soon as the book arrives. Honestly, with the things we've seen come out of the new army books (mostly the monstrous infantry), I am expecting the WE release to be something quite spectacular, and I have this feeling that Glade Guard are going to be insane killers in the new book, perhaps with a point cost increase, but that's just wishlisting.

It's a shame though. They could've done a couple of things with an Errata to make them a little more competetive (the most obvious being to make them unhindred from the mysterious forests), but right now they are kind of lacking. You can still win though, I was 7th out of 14 in a small tourney, and I do not consider myself a great tactician. I think I played a draw, a win, and then a heavy loss. So... Don't look at my sig though, haha.

Chaos Undecided
12-02-2012, 11:53
Trying to use them more like the other Elf armies and including troop blocks of Eternal Guard doesnt really work for them either, I'm pretty sure this is mostly down to the lack of access to Lore of Shadows and "that spell" that and the equivalent spear elves get rerolls of some form or other.

thesheriff
12-02-2012, 14:02
Anouther viable build with wood elves is to horde Eternal Guard;

*51 Eternal Guard w/ Command, Banner of Swiftness = 645
*Highborn w/ rhymers harp, ASf Sword = 245
*Spellweaver, Lv.4 w/ lore of beasts, Talismain of Preservation, Wand of whych Elm = 250
*Noble BSB w/ Armour fo Destiny = 150
*2 x 6 Treekin = 390
*4 x 10 Glade Guard w/ Banners and Musicians = 552
*2 Eagles = 100

It does alright. But, it does feel like a Wood elf army squeezing into a very 8th edition format that it does not fit. But, a big Block of Eternal Guard w/ Wyssans Wildform and a 5++, with 50 attacks in the front rank @ S4 is pretty decent.

thesheriff

The Low King
12-02-2012, 16:05
So really, what I'm hearing is that it's somewhere between really hard and impossible to do the light skirmishing list, with just enough shooting to encourage units to cross the board, that I used to, and I basically need to run heavy hitters like treekin, and a mountain of glade guard, to stand a decent chance. Failing that, tactical genius may earn me a draw, maybe.

Really that kind of list is hit more by the fact that scouts and waywatchers dont get S4 bows at close range so you can get good enough skirmishing shooters (not because of 8th edition).

Dryads are very good skirmishers and wardancers realls pakc a punch. The main thig you have to watch out for are massive steadfast units as without ranked units you wont be able to break steadfast.

DarKolia
12-02-2012, 16:29
Hi

I've played my WE elves twice in 8th edition (both were wins but my opponents SK/HE are still learning the rules)...
I was also a bit frustrated reading the new rules (especially movement ... I like hordes, steadfast, two ranks fighting...etc.)
So I began collecting HE... (Actually I think you can use a lot of OOP WE minis as HE)...and assembling my brettonians...
Anyway my tactics for the last game was to be heavy on GG (but not that heavy 20/10 + 5WW) to use DR (8) and TK(3) as stoppers and as shield for a small unit of WD (5) for flank charges and to have a big reserve of EG (25) +Lord+ Harp+BSB+Mage 4 Beast to finish off what was left (I did not want them to be stuck into combat... actually I did not even had to use them but I think that's because my opponent was a beginner at WH: he usually plays LOTR) + 2 eagles for warmachine and lone mage hunting...
Well that worked pretty well as I lost only my small unit of GG and 4 Dryads before my opponent (HE) called it out...
Actually even if it's not skirmish that much, you still have to be tactical...
I think that you can always take pleasure but winning against well optimized list (the HE list was not very focused) and skilled opponent may be tricky...
I will tell you more after the return match against skaven (but my opponent does not field in any slaves as he just does not have the money)
Sincerely,

Dark

Doommasters
12-02-2012, 20:53
If you want to become a great WHFB general play the WE, you learn all about the importance of deployment and movement. One mistake and it can be all over, once they get a new book are on on par with the others in 8th edition you will be rewarded for your hardship.

Right now If i get a draw I consider it a win for the WE as you really have to work your **** off. Being the underdog is also fun and you would be surprised at some of the poor moves your opponenets will make simply becuase they are playing the lol WE and don't consider you a threat.

AS for Waywatchers I have never been able to use them successfully in 8th edition and they simply cost way too much for what they do. That isn't to say they don't work just that I fail to see how they are worth it.

Sylvos
13-02-2012, 08:08
Most of the rules in 8th don't favor Wood Elves, but there are ways to play. I suggest you look at this blog, http://companyofthedamned.blogspot.com/ . The author runs Wood Elves as his primary army and spends a lot of time talking about units and tactics.

Thank you again for plugging my blog Belgarath97!

Wood elves in 8th edition are just fine. You can easily win with them if you play to the army's strengths and play intelligently.
1. Understand your playstyle and mold the army to fit it.
2. Understand and master your deployment strategy - Wood Elves in 8th edition have a huge advantage due to the speed and agility of the army.
3. Pick your battles - make sure you fight on your terms and not your opponents - this is one of the most important facets of winning with Wood Elves.
4. Lastly, just enjoy the hell out of the army and keep playing it once you have mastered what tactics work for you.

You are welcome to check out some of the tactica articles on my blog, they are mainly my tactics I use with my playstyle and army composition but I've done pretty well in 8th with a book released in what? 2006? Granted they are my tactics but they may work for you or provide you with a gateway to develop your own. Hope it helps.

Regardless of what folks say - Wood Elves are very capable in 8th and can win quite easily once you figure out how they work well for you.

Thanks!

laribold
13-02-2012, 09:54
I'm still relatively inexperienced with WE and it started out badly for me as I attempted to do what thesheriff said, and play an 8th ed style army with them. However since playing a different list (more MSU but without spamming glade guard) my results have massively improved. As Sylvos says you have to absolutely pick your battles and fight on your terms, but fortunately the WE army has the skills to do that.

The movement phase is THE phase for your army in this regard. Sometimes its akin to chess (and is as mentally tough)! Keep moving, spread the enemy's forces, keep him off balance and then strike hard when and where you want.

Wardancers are superb character assassins and have a big scare factor as a result.
Waywatchers always go in my lists where possible for the time that they KBd a Level 4 Tzeentch Sorcerer on Disk on turn 1 of the game. Priceless. They also have that scare factor that means people don't like having them in or around their troops.

There's a place for pretty much all of the troops in a WE army, with the exception of possibly Glade Riders and Warhawk Riders (too expensive and too frail) although I'm sure someone else uses them both to good effect.

For a (very) old Army Book there are still lots of options and certainly not one 'net list' that you have to use. Sure there are issues and previous edition hang-ups that it'd be nice to clear up but I for one am happy playing with the current AB, and given that there doesn't seem to be one of the cards for quite a long time that's probably a good thing...

DarKolia
13-02-2012, 10:04
Wardancers are superb character assassins and have a big scare factor as a result.
Waywatchers always go in my lists where possible for the time that they KBd a Level 4 Tzeentch Sorcerer on Disk on turn 1 of the game. Priceless. They also have that scare factor that means people don't like having them in or around their troops.


I agree that the psychological impact of WW and WD is important! that's why I take some of them (but they're so expensive)!

tmarichards
13-02-2012, 10:56
Waywatchers are very expensive, but I think the way to look at them is that they perform a role that nothing else in the book can perform. They're pretty much the only thing that stops Lizard players from running over us with just the Scar-Vet pair, and they also give both the nasty DE pegasus rider builds a lot of problems. If nothing else, they force them to stay in a unit and lose a lot of their mobility. I've been running 2x6, and whilst they don't always do that much, they're certainly worthwhile.

NerZuhl
13-02-2012, 12:03
Wood elves in 8th edition are just fine. You can easily win with them if you play to the army's strengths and play intelligently.

Really? So I guess the majority of players don't play intelligently or see the armies strength. Do you honestly believe WE could go the entire edition with no update and be able to keep pace with the power players?

Giving advice on how to make the most out of a crappy situation is great and appreciated. But don't degrade achievements by acting like there is nothing wrong with the army and it is other people's fault they are the bottom of the barrel.

Wood Elves took a hit from the nerf bat with the changes 8th edition introduced.

Vaiuri
13-02-2012, 12:22
Its really great to see all the positive feedback and comments in this thread - I was afraid it would be another whine-fest, but I'm happy to see people sticking with Woodies and making them work no matter the odds (and what the interwebz says!). I've recently fished my Welves out of their cases as a painting project, this thread has inspired me to get the army book out too! Thanks!

sninsch
13-02-2012, 12:28
...

Wood Elves took a hit from the nerf bat with the changes 8th edition introduced.

both undead books get a bigger hit from the nerf bat in 8th edition and the main problems in the rule book like unstable, steadfast were written in stone and nothing in the new undead books adresses this rule book issues. But there is hope because the vampire book is a very good one, lots of different units, beautiful artwork and as powerfull as most 8ed books, on the other hand tomb kings get a bad book, which you have the feeling it plays against you. So a update to the wood elfes could possibly solve the problems or do the same thing as they did for the mumies: release new shiny kits and don't care about the core problems of an army.

NerZuhl
13-02-2012, 12:37
However, if anything TK are still a step up from how their army book was working (or not) in 8th edition. Doesn't change the fact that as far as armies that where impacted by 8th, WE were toward the top of the negative list. Thankfully they have updated some of those most negatively affected, however, from all signs it looks as though this trend is going to stop. And we will see updates for armies that are rather new.

But I love those WE models, and painting them is fun. So not giving up on them. They will be my only fantasy army (damn expensive compared to 40k),so I am in it for the long haul

Sylvos
13-02-2012, 14:06
If you're going to take offense and read what I said as insulting then there isn't anything I can say to change that but the comment was intended to say that players have to really treat the Wood Elf army as a surgical tool rather than a club. In this edition this army does not function anything like it did in 7th and players are required to completely change how they view the army and regard their own tactics. I am not really sure how stating that the army is fine is degrading the achievements but like I said earlier if you're going to let that rub you the wrong way that's your business and I'm not going to argue about it cause that was never my intention to bring about insult.
I do not think we're going to go an entire edition without a new book because we currently are the only book that has a "Move your unit into combat in the magic phase spell" and they have systematically replaced all the army books that had type of spell. Don't get me wrong however, I'd love a new book and have been pining for it since 8th came out but I will continue to play the army as is until then. I also was very annoyed with 8th came out and the errata did not change the Forest spirit ward saves but I actually feel that Wood Elves gained a ton of advantages with the 8th edition changes rather than suffered from "nerfs".
1. They gained the ability to march and shoot with skirmishers
2. Initiative based combat was a huge boost to their effectiveness (all elves really)
3. Forests providing steadfast to skirmishers is a really big help.
4. True line of sight for archery
and so on.
Now before we get into an argument online about the pros and cons of wood elves - let's look at the over all message which is:
Wood Elves are an older army but they can still function very, very well once you have figured out how to make them work for you.


Really? So I guess the majority of players don't play intelligently or see the armies strength. Do you honestly believe WE could go the entire edition with no update and be able to keep pace with the power players?

Giving advice on how to make the most out of a crappy situation is great and appreciated. But don't degrade achievements by acting like there is nothing wrong with the army and it is other people's fault they are the bottom of the barrel.

Wood Elves took a hit from the nerf bat with the changes 8th edition introduced.

WizzyWarlock
13-02-2012, 19:45
I'm not having any troubles playing Wood Elves. I've played Warriors of Chaos and Vampire Counts in the past and find the Wood Elf style of play a lot more fun and interesting. With the mix of magic, shooting and combat, Wood Elves do really well. Sure, the rules have hurt them in some ways, but I don't think it's in such a way as to make them unplayable. Far from it in fact, I've won a lot of battles with them, with my victories so far counting against Skaven, Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos, Dark Elves and Orcs & Goblins. My army usually contains one or two units of 20 Glade Guard, 6 Treekin and a Treeman, but after that I could be fielding anything from Glade Riders to Wardancers, Wild Riders to Scouts.

To the OP: The way I play Wood Elves is to focus shooting on the enemies shooting first, until there's nothing left for them to fire. That takes a lot of stress off the T3, little armour save Elves. If there's enough woods on the field a nice tactic after taking out the enemy shooting is to put Dryads/Wardancers in those woods. To get points in return the enemy have to come to you - they've got no way to shoot you after all, while you can plug away all day - but once they step into those woods the Dryads become Stubborn and the enemy lose theirs. That can quickly turn things around, especially when mixed with spells such as Awakening of the Woods or items like the Deepwood Sphere.

There are, of course, as many ways to play Wood Elves as there are battles of Warhammer. Every time I play I work out something new, so the best bet is to just keep playing until you work out what's best for you. It took me a while until my Elves stopped being speed bumps, but now I seem to be winning more than I'm losing.

TheEndIsNear17
13-02-2012, 19:50
I am a wood elf player and I disagree with what has been said here:
1) that there are very few wood elves players about, there always seems to be a new thread about them on here and when I use them people often talk about their own army or how they reall want to get one.
2)That the army cant win, it can I do it all the time and my losses are usaully due to my mistakes not the army book.

3)that we lack good units, there are a lot of dead wood in the army book( glade riders, waywatchers and wild riders) but units like treekin, treemen and glade guard are the best you can get the may not be priced in line with other army books but they are good units.
4)we cant beat cheesey lists, when I see a chosen star I laugh because I know I can chuck my spellweaver at it who can only be hit on sixs in challenges and on her last wound has a two plus save (which I can use repeatedly thanks to the FAQ) while the rest of my army defaets the warshrines and chaff.

Doommasters
13-02-2012, 19:56
I'm not having any troubles playing Wood Elves. I've played Warriors of Chaos and Vampire Counts in the past and find the Wood Elf style of play a lot more fun and interesting. With the mix of magic, shooting and combat, Wood Elves do really well. Sure, the rules have hurt them in some ways, but I don't think it's in such a way as to make them unplayable. Far from it in fact, I've won a lot of battles with them, with my victories so far counting against Skaven, Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos, Dark Elves and Orcs & Goblins. My army usually contains one or two units of 20 Glade Guard, 6 Treekin and a Treeman, but after that I could be fielding anything from Glade Riders to Wardancers, Wild Riders to Scouts.

To the OP: The way I play Wood Elves is to focus shooting on the enemies shooting first, until there's nothing left for them to fire. That takes a lot of stress off the T3, little armour save Elves. If there's enough woods on the field a nice tactic after taking out the enemy shooting is to put Dryads/Wardancers in those woods. To get points in return the enemy have to come to you - they've got no way to shoot you after all, while you can plug away all day - but once they step into those woods the Dryads become Stubborn and the enemy lose theirs. That can quickly turn things around, especially when mixed with spells such as Awakening of the Woods or items like the Deepwood Sphere.

There are, of course, as many ways to play Wood Elves as there are battles of Warhammer. Every time I play I work out something new, so the best bet is to just keep playing until you work out what's best for you. It took me a while until my Elves stopped being speed bumps, but now I seem to be winning more than I'm losing.

To beat WE it takes three things;

1) Flamming attacks
2) Multiple Hordes
3) Big Monsters, flying if possible

Anyone army that has these three things can stomp WE in my experience. Why?

1) Flamming attacks down forest spirits like a hot knife through butter
2) Hordes can take a tonne of shooting and will still not lose steadfast, plus WE have no real options of taking down a horde without putting 3-4 units into it. Once you get a couple of hordes on a table it gets reallt hard.
3) WE have great shooting but is is all S3-4 once you get flying beasts and even MI with T5 or more WE have very few options. You can run, you can hide but when it flys or is fast moving your stuffed.

If for some reason your opponent does not have those things your are in with a chance, but this seems to happen once in a blue moon in 8th

Phazael
13-02-2012, 19:59
Wood Elves are a lot like Beastmen, in several ways. Their core book lore is the second worst in all of warhammer (Beasts have it worse here), they rely on a combination of silly item tricks, deathstars, and MSU to win, and when they do in its generally always close. Both armies have wierd matchups in their favor against normally powerful armies, but falter against most of the power armies and several of the second tier armies out there.
The builds I have seen work have mostly revolved around tree spirits backed by a life mage and a ton of shooting. The rest have been minimum sized units that run and gun all game long, hoping to eke out a minor victory. The only reason I consider the Beastman book better is its easier magic lore access and wider array of T4 units. Both books have serious issues that 8th has only served to magnify, and the WE got hit pretty hard with the flaming bandwagon everyone is on to tackle hydras and hellpits.

tmarichards
13-02-2012, 20:07
In a direct comparison, I'd probably have to agree that Beasts are better, even if only because they have access to Mindrazor and re-rolls, along with the Herdstone.

WizzyWarlock
13-02-2012, 21:00
The builds I have seen work have mostly revolved around tree spirits backed by a life mage and a ton of shooting. The rest have been minimum sized units that run and gun all game long, hoping to eke out a minor victory.
Is this a bad thing? What's wrong with using Treekin, Glade Guard and a Life Mage for assistance? Am I supposed to be using Scouts and Warhawk Riders instead, or something? It's like saying the Vampire Counts army always use Grave Guard and Ghouls backed by a Vampire Lord. Or Warriors of Chaos always taking units of Chosen or Chaos Warriors.

The only difference is the other armies have more options to choose from, whereas the number of different choices in a Wood Elf army is quite small, so the continued use of a particular unit in the Wood Elf army lists becomes more apparant. Take a quick comparison:

Vampire Counts: Special - 9, Rare - 6
Warriors of Chaos: Special - 7, Rare - 5
Skaven: Special - 6, Rare - 4
Wood Elves: Special - 4, Rare - 3

Quite the difference, right? So yes, Wood Elf army lists have a lot of the same units, but that's because we don't really have a lot else to select. It's a perfect case of size doesn't matter, it's what you do with it. ;)

WizzyWarlock
13-02-2012, 21:07
To beat WE it takes three things;

1) Flamming attacks
2) Multiple Hordes
3) Big Monsters, flying if possible

Anyone army that has these three things can stomp WE in my experience. Why?

1) Flamming attacks down forest spirits like a hot knife through butter
2) Hordes can take a tonne of shooting and will still not lose steadfast, plus WE have no real options of taking down a horde without putting 3-4 units into it. Once you get a couple of hordes on a table it gets reallt hard.
3) WE have great shooting but is is all S3-4 once you get flying beasts and even MI with T5 or more WE have very few options. You can run, you can hide but when it flys or is fast moving your stuffed.

If for some reason your opponent does not have those things your are in with a chance, but this seems to happen once in a blue moon in 8th
That's odd as I recently fought a Skaven army which had multiple hordes, flaming attacks, a Hellpit and a Doomwheel, yet I still managed to win. I can remember 2 units of 60 Skavenslaves, 3 or 4 units of 40 Clanrats, Weapon Teams, Lightning Cannon, Doomwheel, Hellpit, etc. It was a hell of a battle though, at the end we both had about 10 models left on the table, bodies scattered everywhere, rats fleeing for the hills, Wardancers chasing Gutter Runners. Good fun!

Trust me, Wood Elves do fine.

SugarShark
13-02-2012, 21:14
I was looking for something in the range of a poll: ranking armies and perception for victories with them. nothing in the first couple of pages of topic titles caught my eye.
I'm building up some armies and I was hoping to put together something for easy(general tactics) wins, challenging wins and another for somewhere in between.
tentatively I was going with Skaven for easy, Wood Elves for challenging and Orc&Goblin for middle of the road. I'm pretty good with skaven and orcs since 3rd-4th edition and I wanted to give it a go with the elves for awhile.

edit:love the WE blog. those are big numbers 58-4-10

tmarichards
13-02-2012, 21:27
Based on what I encounter on the UK scene, so with a certain amount of comp:

Right at the top- Ogres, Daemons, Dark Elves, Skaven, Lizards (I'd have thrown VC in here before the new book, but it's not been around long enough for me to have any idea where it should go). These'll be the ones that you'll find easier to win with, just by merit of being all round stronger or easier to use

Towards the bottom- Wood Elves, Beasts, Brets. I don't mean to argue that they're the worst armies around by any means, but they're certainly more constrained in terms of competitive builds are are in my opinion harder to win with than some of the other armies.

Everything else falls around the middle, but with such varying builds it's difficult to categorically state where each army stands in relation to each other, especially as the match-ups vary so dramatically- for example, O&G should smash Daemons most of the time, and Wood Elves will more often than not table Dark or High Elves.

SugarShark
13-02-2012, 21:38
thanks a bunch. it looks like a perfect fit for me now I just need to score alot of OOP sculpts

Phazael
13-02-2012, 23:23
Big thing with the Woodies, Beasts, and Bretts is in addition to being underpowered books, their army playstyle changed to a much greater degree than most other lists. People who are not adapting to the new edition are struggling, those that have are doing well.

Doommasters
13-02-2012, 23:29
That's odd as I recently fought a Skaven army which had multiple hordes, flaming attacks, a Hellpit and a Doomwheel, yet I still managed to win. I can remember 2 units of 60 Skavenslaves, 3 or 4 units of 40 Clanrats, Weapon Teams, Lightning Cannon, Doomwheel, Hellpit, etc. It was a hell of a battle though, at the end we both had about 10 models left on the table, bodies scattered everywhere, rats fleeing for the hills, Wardancers chasing Gutter Runners. Good fun!

Trust me, Wood Elves do fine.

I have been playoing WE for five years, the three things I listed are the Bane of the WE. TBH it would seem you got lucky in that game because skaven can just corner the WE and crush them as the take up so much of the board and leave you little room to move.

I love the WE, but they are not great and either you are playing fools or you got really really lucky there.

tmarichards
14-02-2012, 01:15
Or he's just better than you?

I kid, I kid...

Doommasters
14-02-2012, 02:31
Or he's just better than you?

I kid, I kid...

Well by the sounds he must be not only better, but godlike. WE vs powerhouse Skaven list good luck winning that matchup without some help from a higher power, obvioudly its not impossible but Skaven are considered top tier for a reason. HPA and doomwheels are nightmares for WE, combined with multiple hordes of clan rats and slaves you just can't deal enough wounds with WE to make a difference.

NerZuhl
14-02-2012, 04:19
That's odd as I recently fought a Skaven army which had multiple hordes, flaming attacks, a Hellpit and a Doomwheel, yet I still managed to win. I can remember 2 units of 60 Skavenslaves, 3 or 4 units of 40 Clanrats, Weapon Teams, Lightning Cannon, Doomwheel, Hellpit, etc. It was a hell of a battle though, at the end we both had about 10 models left on the table, bodies scattered everywhere, rats fleeing for the hills, Wardancers chasing Gutter Runners. Good fun!

Trust me, Wood Elves do fine.
Your anecdote is noted. But doesn't dispel the fact that it is a tough match up for them. I don't believe it to be a hard counter, there aren't any in this game due to the dice mechanic, but you have to admit it is an uphill battle.

Don't talk down to people if you aren't trying to be insulting. Respond with opinions that counter the other. Anyone can post a story about this or that. If you don't believe that example to be valid, then point out the weaknesses and how to take advantage of it. Cause frankly all your doing is saying "I'm better than you".

Anecdotal evidence is useless because there are so many factors we don't know about. Were you lucky? Was your opponent a *****? Did you simply out maneuver him? What list did you use? How many points where there? How were dice rolls?

I could post a story about 10 wardancers crushing a plague furnace and 40 monks and claim that WE are OP. When in fact what happened was his furnace blew up and killed half his block and I had an impressive streak of rolling. So lets avoid the Anecdotes shall we.

Djekar
14-02-2012, 06:49
...but once they step into those woods the Dryads become Stubborn and the enemy lose theirs.

Remember that this is only partially true. They do not lose their steadfast unless the majority of the unit is inside a forest, which depending on the size of the opposing unit can be pretty hard. Yet one more way that the rules of 8th pander to freakishly large units.

Don't let me sound like I scoff at stubborn dryads though - they are still nails.

WizzyWarlock
14-02-2012, 07:56
Your anecdote is noted. But doesn't dispel the fact that it is a tough match up for them. I don't believe it to be a hard counter, there aren't any in this game due to the dice mechanic, but you have to admit it is an uphill battle.

Don't talk down to people if you aren't trying to be insulting. Respond with opinions that counter the other. Anyone can post a story about this or that. If you don't believe that example to be valid, then point out the weaknesses and how to take advantage of it. Cause frankly all your doing is saying "I'm better than you".

Anecdotal evidence is useless because there are so many factors we don't know about. Were you lucky? Was your opponent a *****? Did you simply out maneuver him? What list did you use? How many points where there? How were dice rolls?

I could post a story about 10 wardancers crushing a plague furnace and 40 monks and claim that WE are OP. When in fact what happened was his furnace blew up and killed half his block and I had an impressive streak of rolling. So lets avoid the Anecdotes shall we.
I apologize for my tone, but I didn't like the fact he was out and out declaring that the WE have no chance against a certain match up. That's just going to turn people away from the army when they're quite fine dealing with those problems, as I've proved. As for my army list, I don't have it anymore but I'll try and remember what I had:

19 Eternal Guard with Highborn: Callach's Claw, Wraithstone, Gamblers Armor, Shield.
10 Dryads x2
6 Treekin
Treeman
10 Wardancers
20 Glade Guard
9 Glade Riders with Level 4 Life Spellweaver on Elven Steed

I think that was about it. The Eternal Guard did the bulk of the damage to his weaker units, routing both units of Skavenslaves and a unit of Clanrats, then turning on the Lightning Cannon before what left was overrun by the Doomwheel.
The Treekin went into an epic battle with the Hellpit that lasted most of the game, though the Treekin won coming out with 3 models left, albeit with 1 of them on a single wound.
The Treeman didn't do a whole lot, he tried to take out the Doomwheel and fluffed his attacks - so many 1s! - and finally got toppled.
Dryads took out Plague Monks (forgot they were in the list).
Glade Riders ran around with the Spellweaver buffing units and regenerating others while taking out the Weapon Teams with ranged fire.
Glade Guard weakened units before others jumped in, but eventually routed off the field after the Lightning Cannon hit a direct line down their length (they were in 2 ranks of 10 for max fire), taking out 10 in one blast.
Wardancers circled around and leapt in to deal with the Army General. 3 targeted him on the first round with Killing Blow, removing that threat, and the lower LD made routing the Clanrats easier.

The main winner was the Highborn who was giving any unit he attacked a -2 LD to rout tests, which was devestating for the Skaven, especially considering I had suckered his General/BSB away from the main pack so they were out of range of his influence. Another couple of turns and it would have been a win for the Skaven, as I had nothing left on the field to deal with that Doomwheel, but luckily it didn't come to that.

Edit: Forgot to mention it was a 2500pt battle.

tmarichards
14-02-2012, 08:05
HPA and doomwheels are nightmares for WE, combined with multiple hordes of clan rats and slaves you just can't deal enough wounds with WE to make a difference.

I'll agree about the Doomwheel (and tbh Skaven in general), but not the HPA. They're free points if you have a heavy glade guard list (assuming that you have 1 bigger unit with the flaming banner), I played Skaven recently in a small tournament and whilst I got absolutely stomped both the Abombs came off turns 1 and 2.

Doommasters
14-02-2012, 08:27
I'll agree about the Doomwheel (and tbh Skaven in general), but not the HPA. They're free points if you have a heavy glade guard list (assuming that you have 1 bigger unit with the flaming banner), I played Skaven recently in a small tournament and whilst I got absolutely stomped both the Abombs came off turns 1 and 2.

You have to have a pretty big unit of GG to ensure you get a wound on a abomb with flaming attacks. That big units is going to be free VP if anyone gets to it as GG fall and are not exactly cheap. Skaven is one of the armies I find the most difficult to deal with.

tmarichards
14-02-2012, 09:29
12 with the flaming banner should do it- 6 hits at long range gets one wound on average. I usually have 16-18 in the the big unit just to make sure.

Doommasters
14-02-2012, 09:35
12 with the flaming banner should do it- 6 hits at long range gets one wound on average. I usually have 16-18 in the the big unit just to make sure.

I normally take 18 also but even then you don't always get it, best option we have though.