PDA

View Full Version : What happened to the Ringwraiths after the ring was destroyed?



Getifa Ubazza
13-02-2012, 21:03
I'm making a couple good armies based after the end of the LotR's movies, But having never read the books, I have no idea what really happened or what Evil forces survived.

One army will be based on Legolas and Gimli's exploring of Fangorn forest and the Glittering Caves of Helm's Deep. As Legolas ends up founding an Elf-colony in Ithilien, I decided to put them with some Wood Elves to help them in their exploring.

My Gondor Force will be a generic one for friends to use.

I want to make an evil force for my 2 good forced to chase down and destroy or discover on their adventures, But don't want to include anything that's already destroyed. I suspect there will be many Orcs to hunt down and probably some Trolls.

I also think Shelob is a safe bet, as I don't think she was actually killed by Sam. Was she?

I just don't know what happened to The Ringwraiths. Did they continue on after Sauron was destroyed?
What other (Named) evil leaders survived after Sauron was Destroyed?

Thanks

Peregrin
13-02-2012, 23:00
The ring kept them alive, so they came to their end when it did.

Pretty much any other creature other than say dragons or balrogs should be fair game.

Whitwort Stormbringer
13-02-2012, 23:32
What other (Named) evil leaders survived after Sauron was Destroyed?
Not many, unfortunately. At least not the recognizable ones.

I think you could make a case for Druzhag, Kardush, Groblog, Ashrak, Amdur, Dalamyr, Thrydan, and the Golden King of Harad since they're all GW inventions (unless the GW fluff depicts their deaths somewhere), and other than that maybe some of the named uruk-hai captains from Isengard, although I think Isengard's armies are supposed to be pretty much toast by the end of the War of the Ring. Lurtz is obviously dead and Mauhur and Ugluk ought to be dead too (would have been killed by Eomer and his men when they ambushed the orc camp at night), but maybe Vrasku escaped and has a warband of orcs and uruks wandering around Rhovanion. If ignoring movie fluff and going by the books then neither Gothmog nor the Mouth of Sauron is stated to have been slain (if memory serves correctly), although suggesting that either survived their respective battle is a bit of a stretch. Maybe less so for the Mouth of Sauron, and he would certainly make a good villain for a Fourth Age campaign. If you feel like getting creative, I know of one person that devised a 4th Age campaign which supposed that the two blue wizards had gone bad and were rallying the various Eastern races of men to join them.

As far as troops go, orcs and evil men are the order of the day, especially Harad and Easterlings. I would think you'd probably avoid much in the way of very large monsters, although there are probably still some trolls in the various armies. Undead seem unlikely to bend to the will of lesser evil leaders such as orcs and men, so I think without Sauron and the Nazgul they'd be out of the picture, at least as part of an organized force.

Getifa Ubazza
14-02-2012, 02:22
The ring kept them alive, so they came to their end when it did.

Pretty much any other creature other than say dragons or balrogs should be fair game.

Now that's a shame. I was really liking the idea of Legolas and Gimli having a go at a Dragon or Cave Drake. The Balrog, I'm not bothered about. Still hoping Shelob is alive, as I think the boys would have fun against her.


Not many, unfortunately. At least not the recognizable ones.

I think you could make a case for Druzhag, Kardush, Groblog, Ashrak, Amdur, Dalamyr, Thrydan, and the Golden King of Harad since they're all GW inventions (unless the GW fluff depicts their deaths somewhere), and other than that maybe some of the named uruk-hai captains from Isengard, although I think Isengard's armies are supposed to be pretty much toast by the end of the War of the Ring. Lurtz is obviously dead and Mauhur and Ugluk ought to be dead too (would have been killed by Eomer and his men when they ambushed the orc camp at night), but maybe Vrasku escaped and has a warband of orcs and uruks wandering around Rhovanion. If ignoring movie fluff and going by the books then neither Gothmog nor the Mouth of Sauron is stated to have been slain (if memory serves correctly), although suggesting that either survived their respective battle is a bit of a stretch. Maybe less so for the Mouth of Sauron, and he would certainly make a good villain for a Fourth Age campaign. If you feel like getting creative, I know of one person that devised a 4th Age campaign which supposed that the two blue wizards had gone bad and were rallying the various Eastern races of men to join them.

As far as troops go, orcs and evil men are the order of the day, especially Harad and Easterlings. I would think you'd probably avoid much in the way of very large monsters, although there are probably still some trolls in the various armies. Undead seem unlikely to bend to the will of lesser evil leaders such as orcs and men, so I think without Sauron and the Nazgul they'd be out of the picture, at least as part of an organized force.

The main reason I came here was to find out about the book fluff rather than the movies, as I have seen those.

I like the Idea of Gothmog and the Mouth of Sauron escaping and Legolas and Gimli going on a quest to find them and to then call on Gondor for an Evil Last stand type game. How long can The Mouth of Sauron, Gothmog and hopefully Shelob continue to escape with their lives? :)

So for Warbands I'm looking at 2 Orc Warbands, an Easterling one, a Harad one, a Warg Riders one and some Trolls with The Mouth of Sauron, Gothmog, Shelob and a couple generic Captains? Do you think I could fit all that into 1000 pts. If I was able to, I would like to pop an Umbar Warband in there too, But doubt I would have the points for everything.

I'm guessing at 500pts of Mordor and 500pts of Fallen Realms then?

Peregrin
14-02-2012, 13:40
Cave drakes would still be a possibility, but Smaug was pretty much the last serious dragon threat.
Any of the Misty Mountain or Mirkwood monsters would need to be hunted out (bats, spiders, trolls, dweller in the dark, watcher in the water, wild wargs, etc.) There could also be pockets of unruly undead, such as in the Barrow Downs, but not really armies of them. They would attack anything living, though. I agree that they would be unlikely to work with men or orcs without Nazgul or the 'Necromancer' (Sauron) to command them.

Book wise, there are no real evil undead as we understand them. The only ghosts I can think of are the ones who worked for Aragorn. The Wights that the hobbits were captured by were actually lesser spirits like Sauron himself, sent by his leftenant (Witch King) to use the bodies of the dead 'good guys' in order to act on the physical world. They weren't actually the dead person come back in any sense. Now, that's an arguement from silence, so I'm not trying to dispute GW's portrayal of the Angmar list, but it is not actually present in the LotR books.

Gothmog wasn't really a character in the books, but died in the movies. Could be used as a general Orc overlord.

Getifa Ubazza
14-02-2012, 14:11
Cave drakes would still be a possibility, but Smaug was pretty much the last serious dragon threat.
Any of the Misty Mountain or Mirkwood monsters would need to be hunted out (bats, spiders, trolls, dweller in the dark, watcher in the water, wild wargs, etc.) There could also be pockets of unruly undead, such as in the Barrow Downs, but not really armies of them. They would attack anything living, though. I agree that they would be unlikely to work with men or orcs without Nazgul or the 'Necromancer' (Sauron) to command them.

Book wise, there are no real evil undead as we understand them. The only ghosts I can think of are the ones who worked for Aragorn. The Wights that the hobbits were captured by were actually lesser spirits like Sauron himself, sent by his leftenant (Witch King) to use the bodies of the dead 'good guys' in order to act on the physical world. They weren't actually the dead person come back in any sense. Now, that's an arguement from silence, so I'm not trying to dispute GW's portrayal of the Angmar list, but it is not actually present in the LotR books.

Gothmog wasn't really a character in the books, but died in the movies. Could be used as a general Orc overlord.

The biggest army I would be building for any faction will be 500pts, so not really an army. More a Hunting party. In the case of the Evil sides. They would just be pockets of evil that escaped after the war, But are enough of an issue, that someone needs to deal with them.

I looked up Gothmog and got results for a Balrog leader, not an Orc leader. Interesting.

Not really wanting to do any undead, But loving the idea of Spiders and Bats and all kinds of things like that.

Peregrin
14-02-2012, 14:43
Yeah... on the special features of one of the extended DVD's, Jackson (I think) talks about wanting an orc captain for the viewers to focus on, but there not being any, really, in the books. He just got his researchers to grab some 'evil' names from Tolkien's materials and he liked Gothmog, if I remember correctly.

Getifa Ubazza
14-02-2012, 15:32
Yeah... on the special features of one of the extended DVD's, Jackson (I think) talks about wanting an orc captain for the viewers to focus on, but there not being any, really, in the books. He just got his researchers to grab some 'evil' names from Tolkien's materials and he liked Gothmog, if I remember correctly.

Oh! I see. I'm listening to The Hobbit right now on Youtube http://youtu.be/j7zn64Y2Ogg It sounds as though it was read for kids, But it's still pretty good.

So is Shelob still alive?

Sophet Drahas
14-02-2012, 15:57
Shelob was still alive and is a very ancient creature. She scurried back into her hole and was recovering from her wounds when the book ended. She also had no affiliation with Sauron or Isengard. Look up her wiki, there's some history on her and her origin.

As for the others I can't say. I thought Wormtongue survived after stabbing Sharky in the back but I could be wrong.

EDIT: Wormtongue was shot by a hobbit after slitting Sharky's throat. He's dead.

Stargorger
14-02-2012, 16:31
@All

Not sure if this is really answering any questions per say, but I thought this might be useful information in considering leaders after the 3A.

To Shelob: Far as I understand it, essentially Shelob is an Ent. Or what an Ent is. Way back when Middle Earth was being refined by the Valar, a number of other lesser spirits (angels if you like) entered the world . Some took physical form, like the Valar, but most stayed as spirits. However Illuvitar had placed a limit on spirits entering the world, that those who did so would take physical form and become bound to the constricts of Time and Finite. Thus, the spirits that had entered the world in this way began to become more ‘world-like’ and to take on the characteristics of the aspects of the world which they most loved and reflected. One such spirit, a powerful being named Ungoliant, took on the form of a massive spider-like beast, being enamoured with darkness, cunning, poison, trickery, etc…Shelob was a half-spirit, if you will, a child of Ungoliant. She is mortal and bound to Middle Earth (and can die) but only because she was born to Ungoliant after that spirit had become physical. Make sense?
So Shelob is not dead and never will be until someone who can kill her physically comes…she won’t die of sickness or old age.

Now, taking this information: I think it’s safe to assume that there are other great spirits that took other unnamed forms (or some forgotten ones…I STILL want to see what a ‘wereworm’ looks like lol) that Tolkien didn’t mention.

As to captains: Gothmog was the name of Melkor’s Balrog lieutenant during the War of Wrath. I think it’s perfectly in keeping that some snooty Orc would name himself after a balrog commander ;-)

The ringwraiths were humans whose bodies disintegrated over time but whose spirits were held to the mortal plane by the power of the Ring. Without the ring, they vanished. Likewise the Watchers of Cirith Ungol, the Castellans of Dol Guldar, etc…anything created or sustained by the power of the Ring.

The Barrow Wights were not. As mentioned they were evil spirits summoned by the Witch King to inhabit the corpses of the fallen kings of Eriador. But, now having come to the mortal realm (like I said about Shelob), they are now physical, and bound to the world, and can be killed. Thus, I think it’s probably safe to say that there are other ‘ghost’ (read, spirit-possessed undead) legions still around from the fall of Angmar.

Peregrin
14-02-2012, 17:36
@Stargorger - I agree with most of what you've said, but I'm not sure I would read all of that quite the same way as you do. You're right on with Ungoliant and Shelob. Also, that the other giant spiders are basically Shelob's children. The only being with more power on the evil side (and only barely) than Ungoliant was Melkor/Morgoth himself. The first Dragons, the Balrogs, etc. were all like that.

I'm not sure I agree that the Ents or the Wights were similar. Unlike the dragons or balrogs, wights did not take a physical form, but rather took control and animated a physical form that was already present. In that sense they can't be killed, but their animated 'objects' can be destroyed. For instance, stabbing a wight through the chest would do nothing. In fact, one of the ones that capture the hobbits was reduced to a disembodied hand, but was still animated, aware, and malicious.

The orgin of Ents seems to be a lot more obscure.

Also (although I can tell Stargorger gets this point) just to clarify, Aragorn's 'army of the dead' seem to be what we would traditionally consider to be ghosts: humans who's spirits are still engaged with the mortal plane. Whenever the evil spirits are mentioned, they have similar origins to Gandalf and Melkor. They were essentially angels or fallen angels that have taken a physical form or are interacting with the mortal plane in some other way. They were not mortals to begin with.

Oh, and FYI, the Hobbit was written for children and as a result has some very silly bits that seem uncharacteristic of the rest of Tolkien's works, to the point of not being consistant with his world. It should be considered Bilbo's 'version' of events with some slight editorial revisions by later Redbook authors.

Stargorger
14-02-2012, 17:54
@Peregrin

lol can I just say you're fun to discuss this with? lol in a totally non-creepy way

Anyway. Right about the Wights. Good point, I'd forgotten that. I’m not sure that the explanation of Wights necessitates that all evil spirit-beings are therefore like them. I mean I realize that’s how the Wights and such are described, but since there IS the example of Ungoliant I would guess there are other evil spirits that took physical form in a similar fashion. Not that there HAVE to be, but it COULD be. :-)

As to Ents: I’m pretty sure that’s described in the Silmarillion, or maybe the history of Middle Earth. It’s mentioned that they were lesser than maia spirits that came to love the trees until they became tree-like beings, and that it’s along the same lines that Ents eventually become just trees that can talk, and so on. Or at least some of them are. Obviously there were Ent-wives and Entings, but my guess is Fangorn and the other two at least, the ‘original’ Ents, were spirits that took that form (if unwittingly).

Also…about ‘not mortals to begin with’…I’m not disagreeing, but thinking out-loud here…what does that make Shelob and the other giant spiders? Or the Entings? Or the baby Great Eagles? Are they then fully mortal, or…? I wonder how that works. Hmm! Interesting.

Peregrin
14-02-2012, 18:11
@Peregrin

lol can I just say you're fun to discuss this with? lol in a totally non-creepy way
....


Lol! Agreed!

You're right that I'm making an arguement from silence. There could definitely be other former heavenly being creatures out there in Middle Earth, who just aren't directly affecting the histories in the Red Book (Hobbit and LotR) so Tolkien doesn't mention.

I'll have to research a bit more on the Ents. I'm going mostly on what's said in LotR itself, which leaves it obscure. Fangorn does say that some Ents have become sleepy and 'treeish', while the elves were the ones who started waking up the actual trees to be more 'Entish'.

Stargorger
14-02-2012, 18:18
Hmm true. Forgotten that part about the elves. Man I could sworn I saw it somewhere…hmm. Although…guess we gotta ask HOW the Elves awoke them…were they ALWAYS sleeping, and had minds and thoughts, or did the Elves somehow impart that to them? Because if it’s the latter, doesn’t that kinda mean the Ents are just golems, essentially?

Peregrin
14-02-2012, 18:22
I think Fangorn was speaking more of the trees (huorns? sp?) rather than Ents. I don't remember reading the origins of Ents. Trolls, however, are basically stone golems that were created by 'the enemy' (I'll assume Morgoth) in mockery of the Ents.

Edit:
Ok. Found it. It is a 'previously unpublished' section of the Silmarillion, so it may not be in my copy.

http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Ents

It's not explicitly stated that 'this is the origin of Ents', but basically the King and Queen Valar (archangels) called 'spirits' to inhabit some of the Kelvar (fauna) and Olvar (flora). The chief of these were the Eagles and the Ents. If their childeren were like the children of Ungoliant and Shelob, then their offspring were in fact born mortal.

Whitwort Stormbringer
14-02-2012, 19:46
Just to clear the record, there are two characters in the literature named Gothmog. First and better known is the captain of the Balrogs from the first age, who died during the siege of Gondolin.

The Gothmog I'm talking about was indeed the commander of Mordor's armies at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, although he is only very briefly mentioned and is not stated to be an orc (or anything else for that matter). He could just as easily be a black Numenorean or another name for one of the other Nazgul. Peter Jackson just fleshed the character out from one line in the book to the Mr. Potato Head orc general we see in the movies. And, as has been pointed out, that character dies in the movies but his fate is never determined in the books. Since Mordor's army is pretty much crushed it seems a safe bet that he died, but I don't see anything wrong with coming up with your own narrative wherein he escaped.

Stargorger
14-02-2012, 22:31
@Whitwort
Could you quote the line and/or reference the text? I believe you I just am surprised I missed that and would be interested to read the section that, apparently, I blanked on lol.

@Peregrin
Ah yeah there's the part I was talking about. Thanks for proving my argument for me ;-)

Whitwort Stormbringer
15-02-2012, 00:12
@Whitwort
Could you quote the line and/or reference the text? I believe you I just am surprised I missed that and would be interested to read the section that, apparently, I blanked on lol
Ha, I don't blame you. I considered myself a huge Tolkien nerd but I didn't know of that character until after the movie came out and I went and looked him up.

He gets a whopping 1 mention in 1 sentence out of the chapter "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields":

And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain [referring to the Witch King]. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray
Jackson definitely played up his role, since in the book it sounds like he pretty much took command only after Eowyn and Merry defeated the Witch King.

It seems odd that Peter Jackson would take a one-line character and make him into a major antagonist, but then it also seems odd that Tolkien would say so little about a character of quite high rank. I guess we just chalk it up to the fact that the evil armies are often poorly described in general.

Peregrin
15-02-2012, 04:52
Well done, both of you.

Stargorger
15-02-2012, 11:31
@Whitwort
Cool. Thanks for the help!
Hmm. Lol but then, PJ also added Galadhrim at Helm’s Deep (which, while cool, added nothing), and forced Treebeard to be ‘tricked’ by Pippin into attacking Isengard, etc…so, yeah. There’s a precedent. At least Gothmog IS in the story lol.

@Peregrin
Lol thanks

Peregrin
15-02-2012, 11:44
I miss Aragorn's kinsmen accompanying him at Helmsdeep and on to Pellenor. The elves fill that gap at Helmsdeep as far as tactically, but it always seemed more than a stretch to me to have them there.

Stargorger
15-02-2012, 12:55
Yeah. It's one of the few changes PJ made that I dislike (along with the Ent's reasoning for attacking Isengard). The original made just as much sense (or more) and would have been just as exciting in the movie. It didn't tie-up any lose ends, it didn't fix any narrative problems from earlier changes, and didn't add anything. Why change it?

Peregrin
15-02-2012, 13:36
Essentially to reuse characters (Haldir, for example) that were already established in the viewer's mind, rather than having to introduce new ones.... that's my guess.

Noobie2k7
15-02-2012, 18:51
Essentially to reuse characters (Haldir, for example) that were already established in the viewer's mind, rather than having to introduce new ones.... that's my guess. Plus it meant hiring less actors :P Just have Haldir and the elves we've probly already seen come back instead of hiring a bunch of different extras to play dunedain.

Peregrin
15-02-2012, 19:34
They reused extras all over the place. Some Uruk were also Rohirim, elves, etc. They used the same actor for Gothmog, the Witch King, and I think even Lurtz. Funny knowing that and watching Gothmog talk to the Witch King....

Noobie2k7
15-02-2012, 19:35
hahah. Forgot about that. The guy was pretty hench though. Lurtz is still my fav LotR baddie even though how little screen time he got. Anyone that puts that many arrows in sean bean gets my vote.

smaul
15-02-2012, 20:32
very cool thread to read for a casual LOTR literature fan like myself. I have read the LOTR and Hobbit and seen the movies, tried the Silmarillion but it is a hard read, so very fun to read this stuff, thanks guys

Getifa Ubazza
15-02-2012, 20:55
very cool thread to read for a casual LOTR literature fan like myself. I have read the LOTR and Hobbit and seen the movies, tried the Silmarillion but it is a hard read, so very fun to read this stuff, thanks guys

Totally agree. Some very interesting stuff here, giving me lots of ideas for campaigns.

Whitwort Stormbringer
15-02-2012, 21:11
Yeah I was really bummed at the ommission of the Grey Company from the movies too. While the Lorien elves at Helm's Deep were cool, I was annoyed a) to see Haldir die and b) that it basically contradicts the notion that elves are withdrawing from ME, and barely have enough strength to defend themselves as it is. Besides, weren't they busy fighting off a bunch of orcs and then storming Dol Guldur at the time?

As far as Treebeard goes, I think the character design was awesome and John Rhys Davies did a great job but man, Jackson took one of the wisest and most ancient beings in the story and turned him into a dolt. I get that it was to give Merry & Pippin a more proactive role, but I was disappoineted all the same, and they come into the forefront in RotK anyways.

The film version of TTT just wasn't that great - not bad and still fun to watch but not as good as the others. Not to be too much of a Debbie Downer, though, and on the flipside my friends who hadn't read the books all felt that those changes were good for the uninitiated audience, so maybe Jackson knew what he was doing.

Noobie2k7
15-02-2012, 21:34
I think also the Elves at helms deep thing was to actually show the Elves doing something and actually having a military presence to those that may have just gone to watch the films and not read the books. Just my thought though.

Peregrin
15-02-2012, 21:46
My impression was that the elves had to defend themselves while Pellenor was being attacked, rather than during the defense of Helmsdeep. The movies compress time a bit more than the books.

Whitwort Stormbringer
16-02-2012, 00:41
I think also the Elves at helms deep thing was to actually show the Elves doing something and actually having a military presence to those that may have just gone to watch the films and not read the books. Just my thought though.

Oh yeah, I definitely agree, and I certainly understand why Jackson brought the elves to Helm's Deep. Just me grumbling, really.

Noobie2k7
16-02-2012, 03:42
Oh yeah, I definitely agree, and I certainly understand why Jackson brought the elves to Helm's Deep. Just me grumbling, really. Don't worry, i agree with you. I was mad when i saw the galadhrim arrive at helms deep and wondered where the Grey company were hiding. Maybe it was dunedain dress up in pointy ears and flamboyant gold armour day.

Stargorger
16-02-2012, 11:33
@Whitwort
Yes, you’re correct. And right. I think PJ wanted to downplay the ‘elves leaving’ bit to focus on the human characters…he did state that after the first movie the focus is on the world of men.
I liked seeing the Galadhrim fight, but it just seemed unnecessary, and kinda like a slap in the face to the fans who were expecting him to follow the book: a major change, with no plot motivation, hints, or need to replace a missing book link.

I agree about Treebeard. I didn’t really see him portrayed as stupid so much as useless. But, yeah, same dif. I didn’t like how Pippin all of a sudden has this spurt of tricky crafty cleverness, which then doesn’t appear again.

I loved the movie but, as with any movie based off a book it had its downsides. But overall there really weren’t that many changes that I was unhappy with: in fact, most of the changes I PREFERRED to the book’s version lol. Like the Dead Marshes, Gandalf fighting Saruman for control of Theoden, etc…most of the cases, I like the movie better.

@Noobie
Good point. I seem to remember him saying at one point he wanted the Elves to go to the Black Gate or something….glad he stuck to Helm’s Deep lol. But you’re right, a non-book fan wouldn’t realize the Elves were off sacking Dol Guldur in the meantime.

And lol! Yeah…the Grey Company probably followed Aragorn through Lorien, Galadriel was like “I c@n g1vez u sh1n33 arm0r” and they were all like “sweet! Elfish stuff!” lol

@Peregrin
I think you may be right about when it’s mentioned, but we know that Dain, for example, received a summons from Mordor (and a threat) before the Fellowship even set-out, so it’s logical to assume that Sauron was already sending some army (Easterlings maybe?) towards Erebor and Mirkwood while the Fellowship was still on the road to Minas Tirith. But you’re right, Legolas’ line about “I do not think any would come, for war already marches on their own lands”, is right before the Battle of the Pellenor Fields.

Peregrin
16-02-2012, 11:54
Oh yeah. I'm sure the elves were aware of Sauron's armies on the move and were making their defenses ready. Minas Morgul is relatively close to Osgiliath and Pellenor, so the Witch King could sort of wait until the last moment to reveal his full army and march them toward Minas Tirith.

In order to strike Lorien and the Lonely Mountain at the same time, they would have had to set out much earlier. I'm sure the elvish scouts were well aware of the size and make up of the marching armies days, if not weeks before they were actually attacked.

Stargorger
16-02-2012, 12:11
Exactly. Plus Galadriel at least would have felt the darkness with Nenya. What surprises me more is that Sauron was able to keep such a strong force at Dol Guldur, which is essentially surrounded by the Free Peoples…we know that Khamul was leading them but surely, if Galadriel was able to, basically, nuke the fortress later, why did she let it just sit there for so long? The elves, Mirkwood especially, HAD to have known it was armed and dangerous. Why wait until EVERYONE was under attack to finally destroy it?

Peregrin
16-02-2012, 13:59
Probably the same reasons why the Allies didn't invade Germany until it became overwhelmingly obvious that it was necessary. They needed to be sure it would be worth taking the casualties. They elves were getting ready to leave Middle Earth after all.

Dol Goldur is in Southern Mirkwood, and would have at least one flank with access to the Easterling territory through which Sauron could funnel in supplies and troops. They probably didn't realize how quickly Sauron could muster the forces there. They probably should have rooted them out, shut the place down, and patrolled the borders of Mirkwood back in the time of the Hobbit, but hindsight is 20/20.

Stargorger
16-02-2012, 14:29
True, true. And I’ve wondered the same thing about the allies and Germany too ;-)

I know Tolkien didn’t talk much about the forces of evil. But I do often wonder why he didn’t talk more about the Elves and Dwarves during the Lord of the Rings. I suppose he was trying to get a story across, but I mean, if you compare Lord of the Rings to something like Game of Thrones…the latter, you know basically everything that’s going on with everybody all the time. Lord of the Rings starts that way, but then kind of turns-out tunnel vision to Frodo/Sam and Minas Tirith. Would have been nice to have some, at least exposition on what was happening elsewhere.

Peregrin
16-02-2012, 14:37
At any point in LotR, the narrative centers on what's going on around the main characters. One half of the TT and RotK each are basically Gandalf for one half, and Frodo for the other.

I don't think the author or publishers were really looking for something the scope of Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, etc. The publisher asked for something along the lines of the Hobbit and Tolkien presented what was for the time a six volume epic!

Stargorger
16-02-2012, 15:23
At any point in LotR, the narrative centers on what's going on around the main characters. One half of the TT and RotK each are basically Gandalf for one half, and Frodo for the other.

I don't think the author or publishers were really looking for something the scope of Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, etc. The publisher asked for something along the lines of the Hobbit and Tolkien presented what was for the time a six volume epic!

Yeah, I know. lol. Doesn’t mean I can’t wish for more ;-)

One thing I’m consistently surprised at is that Tolkien created this vast history, these languages, this big story arc, etc…and yet gave so little description of stuff IN the world. He gave some vague descriptions but it would have been nice is every time he mentioned something for the first time (like, say, the Uruk-hai or Nazgul) he gave a really detailed description. What shape their armor was, what pieces of armor, how tall they were, what their skin color was, etc… instead of this ‘a dark figure in dark robes’. Lol. Awesome. That could be Bowser for all we know.

Whitwort Stormbringer
16-02-2012, 17:49
Would have been nice to have some, at least exposition on what was happening elsewhere.

Isn't this talked about in the War of the Ring collection, another of those History of Middle Earth posthumous publications? I just picked up the set second-hand and am looking forward to reading it. I think it covers a lot of the other goings on during the War of the Ring, for example the orcs attacking Lothlorien, Galadriel's counter-attack and march to Dol Guldur, the Easterlings attacking Dale, etc.

There's also some more info to be found in all those appendices in the back of Return of the King.

Stargorger
17-02-2012, 11:32
Weeeell…yes, and no. It discusses it. But far as I remember, not in any great detail. I mean, I know generally what else happened/was going on. But I wish we’d had more detail. Like, what sorts of troops were in the battles, etc. At least from a gamer’s perspective. The less that game-makers (or gamers themselves) have to invent from scratch to play, the better IMO.

Gaebriel
17-02-2012, 11:59
The Grey company did not fight at Helm's Deep. They arrived at Dunharg, accompanying Aragorn on his further way (Paths of the dead, Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Battle at the Black Gate).

Whitwort Stormbringer
17-02-2012, 22:45
The less that game-makers (or gamers themselves) have to invent from scratch to play, the better IMO.
Ah gotcha.

Well, in a pinch you could play the Battle of Dale without any house rules, running Dain Ironfoot and an army of dwarves alongside King Brand (just use a generic human king profile) and an army of Rohirrim. I think Rohirrim are a perfectly acceptible substitute for men of Eregion, since GW did it themselves in a WD scenario several years back. Toss in an additional dwarf and human king (or captain) to be Thorin III and Bard II, respectively.

The attackers were, as far as I'm aware, a pure Easterling force which translated into game terms I'm sure could include variags as well, so a mixed Easterling/Khand army would do the trick.

Peregrin
18-02-2012, 14:52
Yeah... I don't know that dale had a lot of Cavalry, but the Rohirim infantry would definitely translate well to most troops of 'middle men'.

Whitwort Stormbringer
18-02-2012, 16:48
Yeah, maybe a small group of light cavalry, but not much more than that. When we've played games with Lakemen before we just sub Rohirrim but count their throwing spears as normal spears instead.