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View Full Version : Reddit AMA (Ask Me Anything) with Ex-GW staffer



Portent
15-02-2012, 12:41
Nothing earth shattering but some interesting insights into how things work at GW. Plus if you've got a question you think the guy might be able to answer you can ask it!

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ppwzq/iama_former_games_workshop_employee_ama/

eldargal
15-02-2012, 12:56
This is interesting:

It's true that space marines make up roughly 12% of sales, and all of the other races make up roughly 2% each, but that's lumping Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, etc. all in one big bunch.

40k and Fantasy actually split right down the middle in terms of actual sales. Popularity, as you say, may tend towards 40k in your area, but overall, both are really equally popular, according to the actual sales figures.
Oh he was asked for verification, and he posted this (http://imgur.com/5vQ3t) and this (http://imgur.com/7vjWL).

Max Jet
15-02-2012, 13:11
My God... the comments make this whole thing unreadable. I know now why I stayed miles away from websites like reddit and 4chan... Jesus!

eldargal
15-02-2012, 13:17
I recommend reading it while high on flu medication, it has a really strange hypnotic effect.

blongbling
15-02-2012, 14:37
half of what he says it ***** and is his limited personal opinion, not that of GW and the questions he is getting asked are outside his pay grade...hell I could happily do the same thing on Warseer and tell you why GW does stuff if I didn't think I would get 400 "why didn't they launch this model" questions.

Max Jet
15-02-2012, 14:53
Which you could always just ignore? (It would be however a 100000 times more readable thread than this "pit of civilisation" website over there)

Portent
15-02-2012, 15:31
Heh, I'm not a fan of the redit layout either (though I usually do like threaded discussions). Still, how could I see this and NOT post it to Warseer? ;)

selfconstrukt
15-02-2012, 15:46
He also mentions a manufacturing facility in New York, Sydney and Beijing. AFAIK there was never any manufacturing in New York or Sydney, Sydney was just distribution and was supplied by Memphis after 2003. New York never had any manufacturing, unless it was waaaayyyyy back in the old days before the warehouse on Benson ave in Baltimore in the 80's.

Didn't the Shanghai facility get shut down? I thought the equipment was divided between Lenton and Memphis, or that's what I was told by some staff I know in Memphis (it was some time ago she told me this, that staffer left GW recently).

I knew Dirty Steve from Baltimore, he was fun to work with. I was kinda sad when I heard Baltimore was being gutted, then shut down.

When the Balltimore HQ shut down and moved to Memphis in the same facility as Manufacturing, how many staff moved with it?

shelfunit.
15-02-2012, 15:55
The odd things is that he has bothered to do this now. In a couple of his posts he specifically mentions he has not been with the company for at least 5 years now, so most of his information on anything current would be secondhand at best.

Spider-pope
15-02-2012, 18:04
I recommend reading it while high on flu medication, it has a really strange hypnotic effect.

Yeah that sounds positive now, but it's probably seeped into your subconscious. You'll be fine for weeks then suddenly blurt out "Midget hookers!" in the middle of a social gathering.

blongbling
15-02-2012, 19:11
He also mentions a manufacturing facility in New York, Sydney and Beijing. AFAIK there was never any manufacturing in New York or Sydney, Sydney was just distribution and was supplied by Memphis after 2003. New York never had any manufacturing, unless it was waaaayyyyy back in the old days before the warehouse on Benson ave in Baltimore in the 80's.

Didn't the Shanghai facility get shut down? I thought the equipment was divided between Lenton and Memphis, or that's what I was told by some staff I know in Memphis (it was some time ago she told me this, that staffer left GW recently).

I knew Dirty Steve from Baltimore, he was fun to work with. I was kinda sad when I heard Baltimore was being gutted, then shut down.

When the Baltimore HQ shut down and moved to Memphis in the same facility as Manufacturing, how many staff moved with it?

Never made in Sydney as far as I was aware, they were supplied from the UK and then Memphis; never heard of manufacturing in NY either so if it did happen must have been pre 96. Shanghai is now closed, closed last year

The bearded one
15-02-2012, 19:45
40k or Fantasy: Fantasy, hands down. I once heard the greatest thing ever from our Director of Sales regarding this issue:

"40k is a boy's game; Fantasy is a man's game"

Ahhh, the sweet truth.

No offence, 40K-boyz ;)


The MMO:

In the late 90s, our studio director (Mr. Robin Dews, who is about fifteen kinds of awesome, and who decides what does and does not get made) came to one of our annual meetings and said, "We're doing an MMO!" Of course, we went crazy, and cheered like wild things, while he showed us screenshots and concept art. In the end, the studio withdrew its direct support, viewing it as too expensive (is my understanding, and others may correct me on why they withdrew), but the game studio (Mythic) retained the license, and went forward without direct involvement from our design studio.

I thought it was a pretty good representation of the Warhammer world, but it suffered (as many MMOs have, in my opinion) of being just Warcraft with a different setting, and I've always wished they'd tried harder to implement new and interesting game-play ideas.

Cheers!


interesting.. I liked playing it though, and the system they currently have in place for PvP (took them about 2 years to get there though :\ ) works quite well in practice, simply attracting players to the action virtually automatically without having to go through a whole hassle of managing to get 10 guys together first by yelling stuff on the chat for 30 minutes.

winterdyne
15-02-2012, 20:17
Actually, Climax Nottingham were developing it from 2001 through to about 2003, at which point Climax imploded. I was there for a bit (left in 2002), and yes, Robin was about 15 kinds of awesome. Us code monkeys weren't allowed to fraternise with him after a while. Mythic took it on in 2004, I think. The guys from Climax went on to form Monumental Games which also imploded this year.

Max Jet
15-02-2012, 21:49
Heh, I'm not a fan of the redit layout either (though I usually do like threaded discussions). Still, how could I see this and NOT post it to Warseer?

I am sorry, please understand that my reaction went 100% to the obviously under...well no I don't want to get banned, I will not speak it out loud... people posting frequently on reddit. It was very nice to share the information with us. Sorry for all this and thank you!


Ahhh, the sweet truth.

No offence, 40K-boyz


"My toys are waaaay more mature than your toys!" thehehe... =)



Well I think I have formed the opinion that actualy no one but perhaps 2 or 3 people (who will never speak to you... ever)... can give you honest and real answers to your questions concerning GW. I would however really, really, really like to know what the long term plan is. Where does Gw want to be in 10 years? What do they want to achieve? What are the plans for the future of that company?

Oh and by the way the thing said about "GW >wants< to be exclusive and doesn't want everybody to play it" can't be true based on some simple facts. Before someone get's up in arms because of it.

eldargal
15-02-2012, 22:24
Does that include the sales figures? Because 12% just seems much more convincing than 50-60% that gets bandied around.

half of what he says it ***** and is his limited personal opinion, not that of GW and the questions he is getting asked are outside his pay grade...hell I could happily do the same thing on Warseer and tell you why GW does stuff if I didn't think I would get 400 "why didn't they launch this model" questions.

Reinholt
15-02-2012, 23:08
Does that include the sales figures? Because 12% just seems much more convincing than 50-60% that gets bandied around.

Last I heard and saw reliable numbers for (US only, so these may vary in the UK):

40K was "a bit more than half" of sales of models, meaning the rest was fantasy + LOTR + other. SM of all flavors were supposedly 20% of total sales, which would be about 1/3rd-ish of 40k, which wouldn't shock me.

Amusingly, at least one or two things he says I have had directly contradicted to me by in the know people as well.

blongbling
16-02-2012, 08:14
Ahhh, the sweet truth.

No offence, 40K-boyz ;)



interesting.. I liked playing it though, and the system they currently have in place for PvP (took them about 2 years to get there though :\ ) works quite well in practice, simply attracting players to the action virtually automatically without having to go through a whole hassle of managing to get 10 guys together first by yelling stuff on the chat for 30 minutes.

Actually the project was turned live and started incurring massive costs for GW, it was only after an intervention from Mark Wells that the project was turned off, not after losing GW £6m

silks
16-02-2012, 12:58
The whole thing sounds like someone who doesn't actually know much giving his own personal opinions to make himself some sort of hero on the internet.
I know for a fact that when he says GW loves online communities that is not the case

iamjack42
16-02-2012, 13:40
The whole thing sounds like someone who doesn't actually know much giving his own personal opinions to make himself some sort of hero on the internet.
I know for a fact that when he says GW loves online communities that is not the case

Are you being ironic?

If not, what's you support for the opposite view?

Spider-pope
16-02-2012, 14:37
The whole thing sounds like someone who doesn't actually know much giving his own personal opinions to make himself some sort of hero on the internet.
I know for a fact that when he says GW loves online communities that is not the case

Actually GW have shown in the past that they do like online communities, when said communities are actually positive and respectful. There's a reason why Druchii.net was frequented, why Forgeworld and Black Library adopted the whole Dawi Zharr name from Chaos Dwarfs something-something but very few GW personalities post openly on Warseer.

shelfunit.
16-02-2012, 15:08
Actually GW have shown in the past that they do like online communities, when said communities are actually positive and respectful. There's a reason why Druchii.net was frequented, why Forgeworld and Black Library adopted the whole Dawi Zharr name from Chaos Dwarfs something-something but very few GW personalities post openly on Warseer.

So as long as there is total praise for their work and no dissenting voices., sounds just like the sort of forum GW would "listen" to. Glad this isn't one of them.

The bearded one
16-02-2012, 15:22
So as long as there is total praise for their work and no dissenting voices., sounds just like the sort of forum GW would "listen" to. Glad this isn't one of them.

That doesn't sound fair, shelfy.

I don't think the point is the forum should be totally praising and thumbs-up'ing, but that they'd rather listen to a community that is respectful and posts constructively even if it doesn't agree, rather than one that, while it may have some respectful and constructive voices amongst them, also has plenty of pure excessive GW-bashing. I know I would rather listen to the community with which it is easy to have a constructive discussion and not one that suspects everything I do is fueled by evil intentions.

Also a smaller community is probably a bit easier to work with.

SunTzu
16-02-2012, 15:50
Let's put it this way: the fora that GW had on their own sites (main GW site, Fanatic and spin-offs, and Black Library) all got unceremoniously shut down, never to be mentioned again. The closest we have now are the Facebook pages which aren't a community so much as an opportunity for them to promote/advertise (nothing unique about GW in that, it's simply what Facebook pages are for) and which regularly get comments deleted and discussion shut down if there is any criticism (see the price rises last year for a prime example).

Are GW supportive of online communities? No, or else they'd have one. (Size isn't an excuse either. There are usually hundreds of thousands of people on the official forums of successful computer games, way more than GW would ever have to deal with).

As for this guy on Reddit though: pffft. I used to work for GW too. So did thousands of others, probably hundreds of whom are right here on Warseer. You don't see any of us shouting about it. The guy wants his five minutes of (very minor) internet fame, is all.

shelfunit.
16-02-2012, 17:05
That doesn't sound fair, shelfy.

I don't think the point is the forum should be totally praising and thumbs-up'ing, but that they'd rather listen to a community that is respectful and posts constructively even if it doesn't agree, rather than one that, while it may have some respectful and constructive voices amongst them, also has plenty of pure excessive GW-bashing. I know I would rather listen to the community with which it is easy to have a constructive discussion and not one that suspects everything I do is fueled by evil intentions.

Also a smaller community is probably a bit easier to work with.

I have yet to see any "excessive bashing" on this site (and would love to see examples if there are any). Where GW do something "right" they are correctly praised for it, when they do (or get) something "wrong" they are rightly blasted for it. Sadly (for GW) they have been doing a lot more of the latter than the former recently. GW don't have "discussions", with forums (at least not in an open format) - were they to try that here I think they may be suprised by the lack of alledged "hate" they would recieve - assuming they actually posted specific questions and the mods got rid of the few idiotic posts that would appear from "new" accounts.

Spider-pope
16-02-2012, 17:10
So as long as there is total praise for their work and no dissenting voices., sounds just like the sort of forum GW would "listen" to. Glad this isn't one of them.

You should actually visit sites like Druchii.net sometime. There's plenty of dissenting voices in fact they were the biggest voice of complaint over the weak as dishwater Dark Elf armybook in 6th edition. What's different is that the majority of their users had worked out how to separate the work from the individual.

Unlike here, where abuse is routinely heaped upon Matt Ward and others. Positive is the wrong word, i realised that after i'd posted. What i should say is the communities GW has interacted with are the ones that are actually polite.

Anyone who has been on this forum for any length of time could not argue that if Matt Ward posted a comment today, the thread would be locked soon after thanks to all the abuse that would be thrown his way.

SunTzu
16-02-2012, 17:52
Anyone who has been on this forum for any length of time could not argue that if Matt Ward posted a comment today, the thread would be locked soon after thanks to all the abuse that would be thrown his way.

Yeah probably... however, anonymity is a two-way street... people feel they can say anything on the internet as they are anonymous, but they also know that who they are saying it about will probably never read it. Maybe, just maybe, if someone like Ward took an active role in the wider community he'd get less abuse... maybe if he took the trouble to explain some of the stuff he writes people wouldn't hate on it so much. (Or maybe not. Some of the stuff he comes up with does seem to be pretty indefensible. But then if he took the time to listen to why people think that, he might be able to avoid such a response in future?)

Put it this way: ADB is (or possibly was) a regular contributor to the BL forums right here at Warseer, among a number of other places; and he never received abuse, not that I saw anyway; by the sounds of things he's got frustrated with forums lately so will be posting less, according to his blog, and that's entirely his right to make that decision; but I never saw anyone abusing him. Is this (a) because ADB is sufficiently awesome not to be the target of abuse, (b) people aren't comfortable directly abusing someone who they are directly talking to, or (c) as I suspect to be the case, a bit of both?

After all, druchii.net isn't some magical haven of sanity in an otherwise-vitriolic internet... it's a forum like any other. A lot of people are members of both there, and here (like, for example, me). So if GW can engage with one forum, why not others? Why not host their own? Answer: because they won't, not because they can't.

Max Jet
16-02-2012, 18:38
How come Mantic staff is frequently visiting and even answering my very own unimportant personal messages? And the hate thrown at Mantic is way more ridiculous than the stuff said about GW. "They are just copying GW and stealing someone else creative work!" anyone? That still doesn't stop the company to listen and even answer to some points how tiresome they may be.

GW employers of higher ranks don't frequently visit this forum for one simple reason.

Not the harsh tone, not the lack of validity, not the points being raised.. don't fool yourself.
It's simply because no one of this forum belongs to their target demographic... simple as that. Don't make up some reasons. It's just because they directed their attention to another group.

Damien 1427
16-02-2012, 19:00
I imagine it's because when they're not at work they've got lives to lead that doesn't include the myriad discussion forums around what they spend immersed in at work all day, especially if they're trashed for decisions have are made above them. And when they are at work, they're working.

Oh, and it's good to see you around again, Portent.

xxRavenxx
16-02-2012, 20:01
It has to be said, that if I made 40k books, and came to warseer. I'd spend 5 minutes reading through the place and set my mind to never ever posting here. There is a tonne of hate thrown about inside our wee community, and I would hate to be on the direct receiving end of it. (It was bad enough when I stated my store policies that time a few months back...)

Night Bearer
16-02-2012, 20:23
Are you being ironic?

If not, what's you support for the opposite view?

40k Radio did an interview with Rick Priestley last summer. I don't remember the exact question that prompted it, but Rick stated that GW (and particularly the studio) has always been inward looking and rather indifferent to outside opinion, be it from competitors or customers, and that GW tends to ignore the opinions and convos of forums. His opinion was that this was both a strength and a weakness for GW.

He also mentioned that employees are banned from participating in online forums.

The bearded one
16-02-2012, 21:57
Put it this way: ADB is (or possibly was) a regular contributor to the BL forums right here at Warseer, among a number of other places; and he never received abuse, not that I saw anyway; by the sounds of things he's got frustrated with forums lately so will be posting less, according to his blog, and that's entirely his right to make that decision; but I never saw anyone abusing him. Is this (a) because ADB is sufficiently awesome not to be the target of abuse, (b) people aren't comfortable directly abusing someone who they are directly talking to, or (c) as I suspect to be the case, a bit of both? mhmm.. lot's of A? By the way, did you know he's now gonna be storywriter on a fan animated 40K movie ('The Lord Inquisitor')? * giddy with excitement *


After all, druchii.net isn't some magical haven of sanity in an otherwise-vitriolic internet... it's a forum like any other. A lot of people are members of both there, and here (like, for example, me). So if GW can engage with one forum, why not others? Why not host their own? Answer: because they won't, not because they can't.

In all fairness warseer isn't known as whineseer without reason. I'm on half a dozen other smaller and/or racespecific forums which generally don't see the abuse found here. By the way, didn't GW already have official forums once they closed down? Why exactly did they close those down?


The thread is getting sidetracked a bit though..

MajorWesJanson
16-02-2012, 22:07
GW employers of higher ranks don't frequently visit this forum for one simple reason.


I know that Jes Goodwin reads this site, as well as some of the other big ones. Several others refuse to because of all the abuse thrown at them. Some BL writers poke in here from time to time, especially ADB.
Most read without posting though, as when they do, people tend to swarm them like piranha. Jes I believe has a post count here of something like 3, one of which was to correct me when I misquoted him from GamesDay (Sorry about that! I'm still waiting to see that Void Raven in kit form!)

The other thing is that most forums only represent small segments of the community, and often form Echo-chambers on opinions (Mat Ward, Finecast) that inhibit any productive discussion. The Internet also provides a buffer between people and their comments, leading them to be far more provocative than they would be in person

SunTzu
16-02-2012, 22:10
By the way, didn't GW already have official forums once they closed down? Why exactly did they close those down?

Yes they did, and this is exactly my point: while no official reason was ever given AFAIK (and if there was, I'd guess it was "we don't have the staff to moderate it", though Warseer manage), ultimately it was because they don't want to build an online community. Even if they'd managed to keep the forums free of "whining" and clamped down on discussion of the price gouging, there's too much risk that someone might casually mention that you can buy models from other companies. It's simply not in their interest for that to happen; to a lot of people, to a large part of their target audience, wargaming is GW and vice versa. It'd be basically impossible to build an online community without that being revealed to be completely false, so they chose not to do it.

iamjack42
16-02-2012, 22:16
40k Radio did an interview with Rick Priestley last summer. I don't remember the exact question that prompted it, but Rick stated that GW (and particularly the studio) has always been inward looking and rather indifferent to outside opinion, be it from competitors or customers, and that GW tends to ignore the opinions and convos of forums. His opinion was that this was both a strength and a weakness for GW.

He also mentioned that employees are banned from participating in online forums.

That doesn't mean they don't like online communities full stop. They probably are delighted to have the free advertising, showcase threads, and evolving meta netlisting that encourages full purchases of new 1337 armies.

Edit: To amplify by example, I in fact love ice cream, but I hate that it adds to my waistline. If someone says that I love ice cream, the options are not that (a) I have no reservations about it and embrace it as the four corners of my diet plan, or alternatively, (b) that they are a liar.

lbecks
16-02-2012, 22:56
Darren Latham just closed his blogger account. He had just posted an Eldar step by step and said it was the start of a series and he wanted to do more. Then a message came up from him saying he couldn't continue the blog and all the posts were deleted. And now the entire blog has been deleted. Very suspicious. I hope Steve Buddle's blog doesn't mysteriously disappear one day too. I really like that one too.

Ozorik
17-02-2012, 00:18
That doesn't mean they don't like online communities full stop. They probably are delighted to have the free advertising, showcase threads, and evolving meta netlisting that encourages full purchases of new 1337 armies.


I strongly suspect that GW doesn't engage with the internet for two reasons. Firstly they are a conservative company who seems resistant to change, they tried to have their own forums (horrible though they were) but they didn't like how they turned out so they binned them. Secondly GW won't be able to control a web community to the degree that it likes, I strongly suspect that this is the reason why their own forums were shut down.


In all fairness warseer isn't known as whineseer without reason.

Yes, the same childish reason why finecast has become finecrap. Aside from outliers and certain posters these boards are actually pro GW or at least balanced. In no way is Warseer a hostile forum, certainly when compared to the internet as a whole.

The bearded one
17-02-2012, 00:33
Yes, the same childish reason why finecast has become finecrap. Aside from outliers and certain posters these boards are actually pro GW or at least balanced. In no way is Warseer a hostile forum, certainly when compared to the internet as a whole.

The finecash/crap meme hung around for quite a while. Out of curiosity though, which forums are hostile to GW?

Gunless Ganger
17-02-2012, 00:51
Yes, the same childish reason why finecast has become finecrap.

Ahhhh so it was "The Internet" that put those holes in my $20 model! :p Thanks for clearing that up. ;)

selfconstrukt
17-02-2012, 03:46
Yes, the same childish reason why finecast has become finecrap.

Odd, since I first heard that term from some of my former coworkers I met up with in Lenton several weeks before the official announcement. I was surprised at how disappointed they were.

From what I understand many people within GW are not pleased with Finecast themselves and realize it to be inferior to metal, they just aren't in any position to do anything.

At any rate the impression I got was that Finecast was a temporary material until they can get everything remade in polystyrene.

eldargal
17-02-2012, 06:17
Maybe because Mantics customer base is a fraction of GWs so they can take the time to engage more personally with them? I agree much of the hate against Mantic is stupid, but so is much of the hate against GW. I know I don't have the highest opinion of Mantics work but that is because I actually don't like it, and I wanted to. I also know this is subjective.

Also as MajorWes says, Jes Goodwin and others do, in fact, visit Warseer.

How come Mantic staff is frequently visiting and even answering my very own unimportant personal messages? And the hate thrown at Mantic is way more ridiculous than the stuff said about GW. "They are just copying GW and stealing someone else creative work!" anyone? That still doesn't stop the company to listen and even answer to some points how tiresome they may be.

GW employers of higher ranks don't frequently visit this forum for one simple reason.

Not the harsh tone, not the lack of validity, not the points being raised.. don't fool yourself.
It's simply because no one of this forum belongs to their target demographic... simple as that. Don't make up some reasons. It's just because they directed their attention to another group.

New Cult King
17-02-2012, 06:44
Meh, a lot of the people who bag out Warseer are also some of the most prolific posters here :D I think I had a quick look through the GW fora once upon a time, but found it hard to navigate.

Max Jet
17-02-2012, 07:48
Maybe because Mantics customer base is a fraction of GWs so they can take the time to engage more personally with them? I agree much of the hate against Mantic is stupid, but so is much of the hate against GW. I know I don't have the highest opinion of Mantics work but that is because I actually don't like it, and I wanted to. I also know this is subjective.

Also as MajorWes says, Jes Goodwin and others do, in fact, visit Warseer.

Actually that is a good point and it does seem, that visiting the Mantic forum can get tiresome for the staff, though nobody said it out loud. I still haven't found the fine line however between being treated like a valuable costumer and a *****. Sorry but going to a GW on Thursday, not having spare cash and then going 4 days later only to see the product I wanted to buy getting 30% more expensive over night, while the staff is telling me that this is the best thing that could happen to me leaves a bad feeling. Likewise reading the GW blogs and especially white knighting here really leaves the feeling (I emphasize feeling) that some people think I am a retard. It takes all reasons from me to approach a company respectfuly and with constructive criticism if they cannot even treat me as a sane adult. I understand they want to sell, but surely they can without showing disrespect on any occassion I plan to make a purchase.

lbecks
17-02-2012, 11:16
Maybe because Mantics customer base is a fraction of GWs so they can take the time to engage more personally with them? I agree much of the hate against Mantic is stupid, but so is much of the hate against GW. I know I don't have the highest opinion of Mantics work but that is because I actually don't like it, and I wanted to. I also know this is subjective.

Also as MajorWes says, Jes Goodwin and others do, in fact, visit Warseer.

Customer base size isn't an excuse. Dana White of the UFC runs a billion dollar company but still finds time to post on his twitter which has 1.9 million followers. If you know anything about him he gets a lot of hate. But he still talks to people. I actually believe that the artists and designers in GW could explain why they do things. Sure they get flack for certain design decisions but if you know why you do what you do and are confident in your decisions you should be able to talk to people. Darren Latham has old posts here on warseer asking people to be critical of EM so they could improve. But I don't think GW corporate has that same confidence in their decisions.

Max Jet
17-02-2012, 12:00
But I don't think GW corporate has that same confidence in their decisions.

As I said. The forum poster of 20+ age doesn't belong to the target demographic.

lbecks
17-02-2012, 12:11
As I said. The forum poster of 20+ age doesn't belong to the target demographic.

20+ is their design team demographic. The people on this forum represent a "hardcore" portion of their customers but it is not a bad strategy to try to appeal to them and relate to them. I mentioned the UFC before and Dana White has a hardcore fight fan mentality that influences his decision making. He has to consider the casual fan but he never forgets the hardcore fans.

eldargal
17-02-2012, 12:20
Are mixed martial arts fans a bunch of whiny nerds that will complain about everything at the slightest provocation?:p Also just because a few larger companies have presidents and CEOs who use twitter it doesn't mean a company the size of GW is going to send its executives onto internet forums to answer questions constantly. Apples and oranges. Remember the context of my comment was Max Jet asking why Mantic could respond to private messages, not give a few words and a smiley face sometimes on twitter.

I have a low opinion of twitter, I think it is a low effort way ot tricking lots of people into thinking you are listening to them. Personally I'd rather the people running a company actually focus on running the company, but whatever.

EmperorNorton
17-02-2012, 12:32
Personally I'd rather the people running a company actually focus on running the company, but whatever.

I agree.
And part of that could very well be hiring somebody to communicate with the fans over the mintynet.

lbecks
17-02-2012, 12:37
Are mixed martial arts fans a bunch of whiny nerds that will complain about everything at the slightest provocation?:p Also just because a few larger companies have presidents and CEOs who use twitter it doesn't mean a company the size of GW is going to send its executives onto internet forums to answer questions constantly. Apples and oranges.

I have a low opinion of twitter, I think it is a low effort way ot tricking lots of people into thinking you are listening to them. Personally I'd rather the people running a company actually focus on running the company, but whatever.

OH YES. You have no idea how whiny and nerdy the vast majority of internet MMA geeks are. It far exceeds the level of warhammer nerds. Every decision Dana White makes is picked apart and criticized and scrutinized. But you know what? Dana White will say why he does things and the reasoning behind his decisions.

And here's the thing about Dana White. Smoke show or not the proof of the tasting is in the pudding. In the last ten years the UFC has grown from a company bought at 2 million into a billion dollar business. Dana White is about a billion times the CEO Mark Wells is. And he isn't sent to twitter, he goes there because he understands it helps his company grow and keep customers. Fans have a very genuine response to that. I've been an MMA fan for about a dozen years and over that time period a lot of my wants and concerns have been answered in some form or another (more fights on a card, more fights televised, show the prelims, more cable shows, get so and so fighter in the org, put together so and so match). And a lot of these wants and concerns are "hardcore" fan priorities, not casual fan concerns. But employing these methods works. It shows dedicated, longtime fans the thinking at the top is just as "hardcore" as the ground level. And casual fans get all those benefits too if they want them.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
17-02-2012, 12:51
I agree.
And part of that could very well be hiring somebody to communicate with the fans over the mintynet.

I've never used this phrase before, but it certainly sums up my opinion: Quoted For Truth, well said EmperorNorton.

eldargal
17-02-2012, 13:10
In that case he is an exceptional president and sadly very much a rarity. Just in case anyone misinterprets, I'm not saying GW couldn't do more to interact with their fans, they could. I'm just saying expecting in-depth, personalised interaction with a CEO via private message is unreasonable in all but the smallest companies or truly exceptional corporate leadership.

OH YES. You have no idea how whiny and nerdy the vast majority of internet MMA geeks are. It far exceeds the level of warhammer nerds. Every decision Dana White makes is picked apart and criticized and scrutinized. But you know what? Dana White will say why he does things and the reasoning behind his decisions.

And here's the thing about Dana White. Smoke show or not the proof of the tasting is in the pudding. In the last ten years the UFC has grown from a company bought at 2 million into a billion dollar business. Dana White is about a billion times the CEO Mark Wells is. And he isn't sent to twitter, he goes there because he understands it helps his company grow and keep customers. Fans have a very genuine response to that. I've been an MMA fan for about a dozen years and over that time period a lot of my wants and concerns have been answered in some form or another (more fights on a card, more fights televised, show the prelims, more cable shows, get so and so fighter in the org, put together so and so match). And a lot of these wants and concerns are "hardcore" fan priorities, not casual fan concerns. But employing these methods works. It shows dedicated, longtime fans the thinking at the top is just as "hardcore" as the ground level. And casual fans get all those benefits too if they want them.

lbecks
17-02-2012, 13:26
In that case he is an exceptional president and sadly very much a rarity. Just in case anyone misinterprets, I'm not saying GW couldn't do more to interact with their fans, they could. I'm just saying expecting in-depth, personalised interaction with a CEO via private message is unreasonable in all but the smallest companies or truly exceptional corporate leadership.

If Mark Wells wants to be a truly exceptional CEO he's going to have to make those extra steps to be able to be honest with customers. I think most people on this forum want GW to have a truly exceptional CEO. I really like the EM team because they would post on forums. In one discussion they were defending their salaries which was interesting to see. Darren Latham was in the middle of a tutorial on his blog this week when someone pulled the plug on it. I doubt it was him. I have to imagine in GW's corporate bureaucracy in the back of some people's minds they're saying about their decisions "We're not doing the right thing. We're not doing something we can be proud of." And then the result is don't talk to anyone, be super secretive, don't communicate. Because if you have to answer questions and be honest you'd be admitting you're doing not right things, things you can't be proud of.

Born Again
17-02-2012, 14:04
He also mentions a manufacturing facility in New York, Sydney and Beijing. AFAIK there was never any manufacturing in New York or Sydney, Sydney was just distribution and was supplied by Memphis after 2003. New York never had any manufacturing, unless it was waaaayyyyy back in the old days before the warehouse on Benson ave in Baltimore in the 80's.


I have had a couple of boxes of recent models (Dark Eldar) with stickers on them saying "Product of Australia" or something similar, I had wondered if they'd set up a facility here. Can't confirm or deny the existence of the place, just that I've got models that supposedly came from there.

Reinholt
17-02-2012, 15:39
Are mixed martial arts fans a bunch of whiny nerds that will complain about everything at the slightest provocation?:p Also just because a few larger companies have presidents and CEOs who use twitter it doesn't mean a company the size of GW is going to send its executives onto internet forums to answer questions constantly. Apples and oranges. Remember the context of my comment was Max Jet asking why Mantic could respond to private messages, not give a few words and a smiley face sometimes on twitter.

I have a low opinion of twitter, I think it is a low effort way ot tricking lots of people into thinking you are listening to them. Personally I'd rather the people running a company actually focus on running the company, but whatever.

Now who is whining and throwing about invective? :p

Joking aside, those reasons are BS. The problem with GW is that they have no coherent PR strategy. There are ways to do insular PR well (see Apple), and there are ways to do very open PR well (see Mark Cuban of the Dallas Mavericks). GW could realistically do either. Instead, they chose to do neither; failing to have a plan is always a losing strategy.

You will also always have people who object to what you do. Part of the job of management is to have a teflon coating and stand in the line of fire despite this, as the value of positive interaction far outweighs the occasional negative. You need to interact with your customers and listen, but you also need to ignore the lunatic fringe. And we certainly have some lunatic fringe posters on warseer (no, I will not name names, though some people would suggest me, I am sure); however, I think the real key is not the view expressed, but also the civility (or lack thereof) of the view.

I fail to see many tasks more valuable than increasing customer base and loyalty of customers for corporate management, in fact. If the management at GW has better things to do with their time than that, I'd like to know what those things are.


I know that Jes Goodwin reads this site, as well as some of the other big ones. Several others refuse to because of all the abuse thrown at them. Some BL writers poke in here from time to time, especially ADB.
Most read without posting though, as when they do, people tend to swarm them like piranha. Jes I believe has a post count here of something like 3, one of which was to correct me when I misquoted him from GamesDay (Sorry about that! I'm still waiting to see that Void Raven in kit form!)

The other thing is that most forums only represent small segments of the community, and often form Echo-chambers on opinions (Mat Ward, Finecast) that inhibit any productive discussion. The Internet also provides a buffer between people and their comments, leading them to be far more provocative than they would be in person


Agree on the reading. I have received one or two surprising personal messages on here as well.

Also, some of us are pretty provocative in person as well, thank you very much. In some cases, it's even our job at times!

eldargal
17-02-2012, 15:55
I really have difficulty believing there are CEOs and presidents that hang around forums answering private messages with any regularity. I'm not saying GW handle PR well, they do not, I just offered a reason why they don't answer personal messages like Mantic. Registering, reading threads, composing messages is a lot more work than posting on twitter.

Ozorik
17-02-2012, 16:17
I really have difficulty believing there are CEOs and presidents that hang around forums answering private messages with any regularity.

They don't have to; they should have someone influential within the company whose job is to effectively interact with the community (both on and offline) and who can filter the suggestions and complaints of that community back within the company. If such a person exists I have not seen any evidence of it.

The bearded one
18-02-2012, 02:54
Doesn't GW at times remind everyone of the Imperium? A labyrinthine bureaucracy, with it's leaders hidden high on top planning and ordering, far above it's poor opressed masses who suffer daily but sustain themselves on their faith. Everything about it used to better in the ancient past under the old leader(s) but now many of it's old heroes have fallen and changed sides to it's enemies, while it lingers on in stagnation, never daring to trust new or xenos technology ( like this heretical internet ) while it's inquisitors sniff out heretics and traitors.

Seems spot on to me ;)


I think everybody agrees they could and should do things better, especially on the PR side, thoug am not convinced GW is that big of a foolish oddity. I agree though they coul be doing soooooo much better, even by doing simple things. Remember some of Mark Wells' models were on the blog a while back? There was a thread about it here and people generally responded positively, saying they saw him a bit more as a person now.

blongbling
18-02-2012, 08:52
Are mixed martial arts fans a bunch of whiny nerds that will complain about everything at the slightest provocation

oh hell yeah, the slightest thing and they moan like a stuck pig.....way worse than anything I have seen on a TTWG forum

blongbling
18-02-2012, 08:54
20+ is their design team demographic. The people on this forum represent a "hardcore" portion of their customers but it is not a bad strategy to try to appeal to them and relate to them. I mentioned the UFC before and Dana White has a hardcore fight fan mentality that influences his decision making. He has to consider the casual fan but he never forgets the hardcore fans.

40+ is their design team demographic. The reason the trainee sculpture program was brought in was because of concerns about the ages of its designers, people like the perrys and Jes are all the wrong side of 40 these days

xxRavenxx
18-02-2012, 09:51
I really have difficulty believing there are CEOs and presidents that hang around forums answering private messages with any regularity. I'm not saying GW handle PR well, they do not, I just offered a reason why they don't answer personal messages like Mantic. Registering, reading threads, composing messages is a lot more work than posting on twitter.

I agree.

I think people should stop putting this odd idea out that GW *should* be coming to talk to people.

When was the last time the CEO of Tescos signed up to Mumsnet and spent a week discussing the price of groceries with middle aged women?

When did the guy from Nike last turn up to check if everyone likes the trainers they bought last month?

I am certain that GW, like all companies will have a guy somewhere, who is paid as part of his duties, to look round the internet and see what's going on. He'll be fairly unimportant in the company, as important people have better things to do, and he'll have orders to ignore 90% of whining, and shortlist only the big topics of the day (or week) to see if anything big is happening.

People seem to want a very unreasonable amount of feedback from GW.

lbecks
18-02-2012, 10:07
40+ is their design team demographic. The reason the trainee sculpture program was brought in was because of concerns about the ages of its designers, people like the perrys and Jes are all the wrong side of 40 these days

40+ is incorrect as they have quite a few designers under 40 but no designers under 20. I don't think they have anyone in their lower 20's as a lot of their younger designers come from EM and have years under their belt as painters. I actually think Seb Perbet might be the youngest one there.

lbecks
18-02-2012, 10:12
I agree.

I think people should stop putting this odd idea out that GW *should* be coming to talk to people.

When was the last time the CEO of Tescos signed up to Mumsnet and spent a week discussing the price of groceries with middle aged women?

When did the guy from Nike last turn up to check if everyone likes the trainers they bought last month?

I am certain that GW, like all companies will have a guy somewhere, who is paid as part of his duties, to look round the internet and see what's going on. He'll be fairly unimportant in the company, as important people have better things to do, and he'll have orders to ignore 90% of whining, and shortlist only the big topics of the day (or week) to see if anything big is happening.

People seem to want a very unreasonable amount of feedback from GW.

Nike opened a twitter recently:

http://mashable.com/2011/12/30/nike-twitter-account/


“We’ve learned a lot from those accounts and the two-way dialogue has been very beneficial in helping us deepen our relationships with athletes of all levels around the world,” Burgett added.

Killgore
18-02-2012, 11:00
They don't have to; they should have someone influential within the company whose job is to effectively interact with the community (both on and offline) and who can filter the suggestions and complaints of that community back within the company. If such a person exists I have not seen any evidence of it.

Whatís wrong with GW's Facebook pages?

They have major FB pages for each territory with relevant news and updates and then thereís a FB page for each GW store, which if they are like GW Southampton's are regularly updated with plenty of communication between manager and gamer.

An example of GW higher ups taking notice of FB would be that statement they released after members of the community spammed the FB sites with protest posts (canít remember what it was about now)

So imho GW do monitor the online community and seem to be doing a fair job

shelfunit.
18-02-2012, 11:57
What’s wrong with GW's Facebook pages?

Anything that isn't resoundinly positive is removed without notice.


They have major FB pages for each territory with relevant news and updates and then there’s a FB page for each GW store, which if they are like GW Southampton's are regularly updated with plenty of communication between manager and gamer.

The store managers have no say in how the company is run, what the design team do, or anything of any meaningful concequence outside of their own shops.



An example of GW higher ups taking notice of FB would be that statement they released after members of the community spammed the FB sites with protest posts (can’t remember what it was about now)

So imho GW do monitor the online community and seem to be doing a fair job

The higher ups took notice in order to spout some random drivel about why the RoW embargo was emplaced on non-European countries, that was neither accurate or helpful in anyway. Essentially the doubling of price of GW products for many of their (probably ex-) customers. The reason you didn't remember was probably because all these complaints were deleted. How them doing this constitutes a "fair job" is unimaginable, as beyond the worthless "statement" nothing happened.

Reinholt
18-02-2012, 21:53
The store managers have no say in how the company is run, what the design team do, or anything of any meaningful concequence outside of their own shops.

To be fair, you can't expect them to, either. Their job is to run their shops; to that end, it's not really a fair criticism of their FB pages to say they can't do the things they aren't supposed to do and don't have the authority to do. I'm for those pages and I think it's a step in the right direction.

Killgore
18-02-2012, 22:31
Anything that isn't resoundinly positive is removed without notice.


The store managers have no say in how the company is run, what the design team do, or anything of any meaningful concequence outside of their own shops.


The higher ups took notice in order to spout some random drivel about why the RoW embargo was emplaced on non-European countries, that was neither accurate or helpful in anyway. Essentially the doubling of price of GW products for many of their (probably ex-) customers. The reason you didn't remember was probably because all these complaints were deleted. How them doing this constitutes a "fair job" is unimaginable, as beyond the worthless "statement" nothing happened.



To be fair, a lot of rubbish gets posted by people who believe they have a valid opinion, that is often far from constructive and a waste of reading time for all involved. Hell I wouldnít want that filling up my companiesí FB page.


Store Managers should form a vital link between GW and its user base, why wouldn't common issues be picked up, reported and then acted on by higher ups? Is there any proof that this practise does not happen?


About last yearís change to foreign trade, I'm sure many companies have similar policies and itís not just a evil scheme GW have exclusively cooked up. Its tough luck for overseas countries and thereís nothing that can be done about it. Some mass whining campaign on a FB page was never going to achieve any change on trade policy, but it did get the attention of the higher ups and received a response.



Why would the GW CEO want to expose himself to the frothing army of GW customer keyboard warriors? Think he should get paid double if he had to talk on Twitter to that amount of lunacy.

lbecks
19-02-2012, 01:50
Why would the GW CEO want to expose himself to the frothing army of GW customer keyboard warriors? Think he should get paid double if he had to talk on Twitter to that amount of lunacy.

Why wouldn't he? Maybe if he could effectively communicate with the fan base GW would make enough money to pay him double. Unless he has something to hide or he knows what he's doing isn't right there's no reason to hide from people. There's no reason to view the situation as negative unless he's doing things to create a negative situation. If he's doing things to create a positive situation then he'll find growth and positivity.

The bearded one
19-02-2012, 03:00
Why wouldn't he? Maybe if he could effectively communicate with the fan base GW would make enough money to pay him double. Unless he has something to hide or he knows what he's doing isn't right there's no reason to hide from people. There's no reason to view the situation as negative unless he's doing things to create a negative situation. If he's doing things to create a positive situation then he'll find growth and positivity.

I'm dumstruck as to what about this post I should attack first.. , you make it sound like they're not communicating because they're performing evil experiments on people in their basements and trying to hide it!

Now they can certainly do better. A lot better. Like a dozen times better. But opening direct communication won't create a positive situation 1-2-3, it just provides a direct conduit to channel all the complaints to them.

lbecks
19-02-2012, 04:25
I'm dumstruck as to what about this post I should attack first.. , you make it sound like they're not communicating because they're performing evil experiments on people in their basements and trying to hide it!

Now you're just being silly. They're performing evil experiments on Halflings. They have no soul. But I wouldn't be surprised if Wells' answers to many question would be "We just want to gouge as much money from you as possible, stupid customers." Jack Welch said put customers first. And some answers probably aren't put customers first. More like put dividends first. Put stockholders first. Put my filling my pockets first. That's not to say I don't think parts of GW put customers first or that Wells is doing a completely horrible job (I actually think Wells is doing an okay job with the situation he was given). I'm sure Jes Goodwin thinks about my happiness when he makes super cool models with extra heads and arms. But some of their corporate decisions don't.


Now they can certainly do better. A lot better. Like a dozen times better. But opening direct communication won't create a positive situation 1-2-3, it just provides a direct conduit to channel all the complaints to them.

Obviously i don't think talking to people will solve all their problems. They need to clean up some other stuff as well like the FC quality control and develop an actual marketing plan to grow their customer base other than "I hope people see our stores/billboards and come in!" I actually don't think forums are the best place to talk to people. Dana "Billion Times Better Than Wells" White only posts on one forum sporadically and avoids the other ones, particularly the #1 MMA forum Sherdog.

The bearded one
19-02-2012, 05:58
and develop an actual marketing plan to grow their customer base other than "I hope people see our stores/billboards and come in!"

In all fairness it sounds a lot better than the marketing plan of the likes of PP, picking off bits of GWs customer base. I think GWs brick 'n mortar stores are doing more than most to actually pull people into the whole tabletop thing and enlarge the general gamer population (not just their own) ;) I do hope they see the light some day though, as their products and fluff are great and they could be doing so many things to become more succesful, even in the cases where they're actually already doing the right thing. For example there's a fan animated movie being made by someone ('The Lord Inquisitor'. Google it! Now! There's also a thread on it on warseer, but it's delegated to pretty obscure corner of the forum so hardly got any attention the past year) and GW gave them the 100% rubber stamp of approval allowing him to make non-commercial 40k animations and lots of people are now jumping in, including Aaron Dembski Bowden to help with storywriting and Adam Harvey to do the soundtrack. This is quite huge, and the animation looks awesome. But GW isn't really doing anything with it beyond saying it's legal. The least they could've done is put a mention of it on their blog to bring some attention to it.

But hold on, that MMA guy actually doesn't visit the larger forums either? So he twitters and sometimes posts on one forum. I guess Wells isn't that far behind him ;)



Okay, I think this thread has derailed so badly, it's lying in the ditch next to the rails.

lbecks
19-02-2012, 06:33
In all fairness it sounds a lot better than the marketing plan of the likes of PP, picking off bits of GWs customer base. I think GWs brick 'n mortar stores are doing more than most to actually pull people into the whole tabletop thing and enlarge the general gamer population (not just their own) ;)

But hold on, that MMA guy actually doesn't visit the larger forums either? So he twitters and sometimes posts on one forum. I guess Wells isn't that far behind him ;)

As the #1 wargames company GW should be going after people who have never heard of miniatures or wargames or still think orcs are green because Warcraft has them green. Stores as billboards isn't enough. If they want to be compared to PP they can be #2 or #3. But if they like being #1 there's a whole big world out there for them.

He doesn't post on the largest forum Sherdog, which is pretty brutal and whiny. He also has a strange feud with Sherdog the website which is entertaining. But if you ever read forum concerns and then look at actions the UFC takes they're often in line with each other. It shows that they're reading the forums and that the thinking on top is similar to the ground level fan's thinking.

As for his twitter: 1,910,843 Followers. Those people are reading him say every month "Buy this month's PPV it's really awesome!"

And his latest twitter post:

thanks bro
In response to a guy who asked:

Can I get a retweet from the Greatest Fight Promoter Ever? #doesnthurttoask

Probably made that guy's day. Made him feel appreciated as a fan/customer. Makes Dana White look like an actual person. Positive points for the UFC. All from the big billion dollar President that doesn't find it a burden to communicate.

The bearded one
19-02-2012, 06:39
As for his twitter: 1,910,843 Followers. Those people are reading him say every month "Buy this month's PPV it's really awesome!"

And his latest twitter post:

In response to a guy who asked:


Probably made that guy's day. Made him feel appreciated as a fan/customer. Makes Dana White look like an actual person. Positive points for the UFC. All from the big billion dollar President that doesn't find it a burden to communicate.

Remember the blogpost a while back with some of Wells' mini's. People here, in GW general, remarked it made them see him more as a person.

lbecks
19-02-2012, 07:26
Remember the blogpost a while back with some of Wells' mini's. People here, in GW general, remarked it made them see him more as a person.

I remarked it made him look more like a person in that thread lol.

Steve54
19-02-2012, 07:38
Yet they ruined that with amateurish 'buy this' and 'I like x the latest release'. It would have been far more effective, and produced more goodwill, if they had just showcased the CEOs armies rather than including all the 'buy this. buy this' and 'I love terrain, buy our new terrain' rubbish or even just done it subtly.

shelfunit.
19-02-2012, 08:39
To be fair, you can't expect them to, either. Their job is to run their shops; to that end, it's not really a fair criticism of their FB pages to say they can't do the things they aren't supposed to do and don't have the authority to do. I'm for those pages and I think it's a step in the right direction.

Exactly my point. I was reponding to the claim they had a greater remit above my post.


To be fair, a lot of rubbish gets posted by people who believe they have a valid opinion, that is often far from constructive and a waste of reading time for all involved. Hell I wouldn’t want that filling up my companies’ FB page.

Very true, but to first call it "rubbish" it needs to be looked at and determined if it is indeed "rubbish". Just labeling anything dissenting as "rubbish" will not help anyone.



Store Managers should form a vital link between GW and its user base, why wouldn't common issues be picked up, reported and then acted on by higher ups? Is there any proof that this practise does not happen?

Read the FC discussion page. Nearly a year has gone by and the frequency of poorly cast models does not seem to be decreasing.


About last year’s change to foreign trade, I'm sure many companies have similar policies and it’s not just a evil scheme GW have exclusively cooked up. Its tough luck for overseas countries and there’s nothing that can be done about it. Some mass whining campaign on a FB page was never going to achieve any change on trade policy, but it did get the attention of the higher ups and received a response.

Totally irrelevent. The "because others do, it we should" is pathetic at best. You see no other wargaming companies doing this, why do GW need to? It is totally indefensible and has been shown to be failing by the drop in income from Australia as shown in their latest posted results.


Why would the GW CEO want to expose himself to the frothing army of GW customer keyboard warriors? Think he should get paid double if he had to talk on Twitter to that amount of lunacy.

He hets paid in excess of £200k a year as it is, he really doesn't need more. A company never improoves by only listening to the fawning voices of it's adoring fans - ever read the Emperor's new clothes?

Art Is Resistance
19-02-2012, 21:37
First On Topic - I have never worked for GW, but strangely I have the same patch and fleece. I also have FW staffer event t-shirts - It doesn't mean I bloody worked there does it?
I only mention this as the information in the Reddit thread could have been gleaned from anywhere over the last few years - I call shenanigans.

Point two - GW only delete directly offensive or defamatory comments from their FB thread - you can scan through and there are plenty of negative comments.

Point three - GW staffers do indeed look on here and guess what - they have a good laugh at how self important certain posters think they are - they also consider this and other sites to be a very small section of the audience for GW products - and again, guess what? They're right.

shelfunit.
19-02-2012, 22:09
Point two - GW only delete directly offensive or defamatory comments from their FB thread - you can scan through and there are plenty of negative comments.

Maybe two or three not happy with the VC battalion contents, but that's it from the last few weeks.


Point three - GW staffers do indeed look on here and guess what - they have a good laugh at how self important certain posters think they are - they also consider this and other sites to be a very small section of the audience for GW products - and again, guess what? They're right.

As above - Emperors new clothes. A small selection - maybe - but 70,000+ members is at the very least 10% of their entire customer base, they would do well not to ignore it.

The bearded one
19-02-2012, 23:06
As above - Emperors new clothes. A small selection - maybe - but 70,000+ members is at the very least 10% of their entire customer base, they would do well not to ignore it.

What portion of those 70.000 do you figure are active posters, even if only marginally active?

EmperorNorton
19-02-2012, 23:32
I feel uncomfortable with all this attention geared towards my wardrobe.

Ozorik
19-02-2012, 23:44
they also consider this and other sites to be a very small section of the audience for GW products - and again, guess what? They're right.

In numbers certainly (although a significant percentage of GW's customers will have some kind of online wargaming contact) but that doesn't really matter.

The power of forums such as this one is that it has members from right across the wargaming spectrum so they are a very good source of customer feedback. This needs to be balanced by the possibly distorted view of reality that forums can occasionally create and that some people simply shouldn't be allowed in the internet. It really isn't hard to filter out such things though.

The blaise and slightly contemptuous attitude that GW seems to have about the internet, and forums in particular, are an anachronism.

Sgt John Keel
20-02-2012, 00:26
What portion of those 70.000 do you figure are active posters, even if only marginally active?

Hm, did they remove that statistic with the forum upgrade? About 10 000 counted as active members before according to whatever the criteria was.

xxRavenxx
20-02-2012, 09:28
Hm, did they remove that statistic with the forum upgrade? About 10 000 counted as active members before according to whatever the criteria was.

10,000 active posters overall.

What percentage of these are GW gamers?

What percentage of the GW gamers are here simply discussing a game they like, rather than being the vocal minority?

I bet there as many as... 100? GW disliking people lurking round warseer. Most of them have little more to say than "I dont like this" over and over, and I suspect from how much some posters hate GW, they don't actually play the games at all, so why cater to them?


From recent memory, I remember the following topics that have been flogged like a dead horse: Dislike of finecast. Dislike of skulls on models. Dislike of big models. Dislike of LotR getting new books when time could be used on 40k books. Dislike of 40k getting too many books when fantasy needs more books. Dislike of liquid greenstuff. Dislike of the new paint range.

And what this tells me, is that the dislike is normally based on either change, or that someone is not being personally catered to in what they want.

If I could tell GW all the problems I have with their product, the only thing I could state I dislike that I know nearly every other person thinks, is price. And guess what? They know. Because everyone would always like things to be cheaper. I'd like chicken to not cost £4. Tesco knows this. If chicken was £3, they know I'd like it to be £2 instead.

In the end, its a simple matter of how you gather feedback. Going and looking at what vocal people want can be marginally useful, but normally is a waste of time. Dropping into a couple of random stores and asking a random sample of customers if they're enjoying themselves, and what they like, is much much more useful.

SunTzu
20-02-2012, 10:16
Dropping into a couple of random stores and asking a random sample of customers if they're enjoying themselves, and what they like, is much much more useful.

Right. Because asking people who are already hanging out in your stores is a guaranteed way to get unbiased opinions and avoid a positive feedback loop.

"Survey conclusions - everyone is happy and loves hanging out in our stores! Aren't we awesome?"

It is fact, based on GW's own publicly available figures, that their sales volume is dropping year on year; only vastly disproportionate price rises mean that their turnover and profits are remaining roughly constant (but of course feeds back into decreasing volume). I'm not pretending for a second that the answers for how to fix this are to be found on Warseer; but neither do I think that the answers for how to fix it are to be found by asking people who are still buying... that's absurd.

lbecks
20-02-2012, 10:56
10,000 active posters overall.

What percentage of these are GW gamers?

What percentage of the GW gamers are here simply discussing a game they like, rather than being the vocal minority?

I bet there as many as... 100? GW disliking people lurking round warseer. Most of them have little more to say than "I dont like this" over and over, and I suspect from how much some posters hate GW, they don't actually play the games at all, so why cater to them?


From recent memory, I remember the following topics that have been flogged like a dead horse: Dislike of finecast. Dislike of skulls on models. Dislike of big models. Dislike of LotR getting new books when time could be used on 40k books. Dislike of 40k getting too many books when fantasy needs more books. Dislike of liquid greenstuff. Dislike of the new paint range.

And what this tells me, is that the dislike is normally based on either change, or that someone is not being personally catered to in what they want.

If I could tell GW all the problems I have with their product, the only thing I could state I dislike that I know nearly every other person thinks, is price. And guess what? They know. Because everyone would always like things to be cheaper. I'd like chicken to not cost £4. Tesco knows this. If chicken was £3, they know I'd like it to be £2 instead.

In the end, its a simple matter of how you gather feedback. Going and looking at what vocal people want can be marginally useful, but normally is a waste of time. Dropping into a couple of random stores and asking a random sample of customers if they're enjoying themselves, and what they like, is much much more useful.

If I were from GW and read your post my impression would be that everyone on Warseer hates GW with the burning fury of 1,000 suns. But having actually read the forum topics beyond your negative view of the forums i'd say my impression is (along with solutions and who they would affect):

Finecast: Quality Control needs to be improved. People like the concept of Finecast but the execution is lacking. Every model should be a super quality model, especially for the price. Customer service generally get a thumbs up from forum users.
Solution: Check the models more thoroughly. Work on ways to improve casting and tell people you're improving FC.
Would it make people happy?: I don't think anyone would object to GW doing either of those. People who are already getting good FC models will say "Awesome they're getting better!" People who have been getting shoddy models will say "Finally, they're fixing this crap. I can now get a nice Isabella with no pharaoh chin."

Skulls on Everything: A lot of people view it as kind of a GW meme that they tolerate, find amusing, or find annoying. Arbitrary skulls on terrain seem to be the most annoying type of skulls for people.
Solution: Don't skull up terrain so much. A lot of Dave Andrews pre-mass production terrain pieces aren't skulled up so it's possible to do this.
Would it make people happy?: People might still hate skulls on other model types but i don't think anyone would be sad if they didn't arbitrarily skull up terrain so much.

Big Models: Some people really like big models. The Vamp throne was well liked. There's a portion of fantasy fans who've always wanted larger plastic creatures and centerpiece models. The Chimera is probably the most hated big model. That seems to be a design thing. I've seen game players not like them due to rules and also transporting them as they have a lot of fiddly bits. For game players I think that's a valid concern.
Solution: Make the fiddly bits optional. People who like the detail can put them on, game players who want to transport them don't have to add them. Have Jes Goodwin monitor Trish. I think big models are a trifecta type thing so they are here to stay. A portion of customers do want and like them, they make money for GW corporate, and designers always talk about them and seem to enjoy making them.
Would it make people happy?: Big Models will always divide people but they're here to stay.

Dislike of LotR books due to wanting more 40k, Dislike of 40K due to wanting more Fantasy, and i'll add LotR wanting more attention.
Solution: I think GW is doing a pretty good balancing act. Fantasy people got some love last year, 40k people are getting love this year, and LotR is getting love this year and definitely when the hobbit comes out. Maybe they can mix releases more like they did in the past so a month is more varied.
Would it make people happy?: If you feel like your army is being left out or neglected you'll never be happy. But if your army is the one being updated you're the happiest person on the forum.

Liquid Greenstuff: Do people hate this? I like this and people here seem to like this. A world with Liquid GS is better than a world without Liquid GS. The core problem goes back to FC and people linking Liquid GS was GW's solution for their inability to better check FC.
Solution: Promote Liquid GS usefulness for all models. It's very useful and a product that would have been helpful pre-finecast.
Would it make people happy?: Again, depends on FC. But no one should be mad at Liquid GS as a standalone product.

Paints: People have been very positive about Foundations and Washes with their ease of use and logical application. Price is often mentioned as a negative as well as the bottles.
Solution: Further refine the painting system, which it seems like they're going to do with the new range. I can understand why they use the bottles and have the small size they do and they have replaced the last 2 bottle types which gives hope that they do address bottle concerns. Put those little tab things back on the bottles. People seem to miss those.
Would it make people happy?: More foundations and washes would make people happy. Little tabs back would make people happy. Some people will never like the price or bottles, but i've seen people overlook both of those because they like foundation and wash quality.

xxRavenxx
20-02-2012, 11:42
If I were from GW and read your post my impression would be that everyone on Warseer hates GW with the burning fury of 1,000 suns. But having actually read the forum topics beyond your negative view of the forums

Because I clearly didn't state that I see it as only 1% of the forum users being deliberately contrary, "GW hating" and so forth.

I definately didn't use the words vocal minority. I definately didnt state that 99% of forum users are unconcerned with doomsaying and bile.


So yes. I clearly have a negative view of the forums. Enough to spend enough time here to get 1600 posts, share rumours, and chat to people. Do you actually think I'd waste my time here if I thought the other 99% were like the remaining noisy and frankly abusive whiners?

lbecks
20-02-2012, 12:56
Because I clearly didn't state that I see it as only 1% of the forum users being deliberately contrary, "GW hating" and so forth.

I definately didn't use the words vocal minority. I definately didnt state that 99% of forum users are unconcerned with doomsaying and bile.


So yes. I clearly have a negative view of the forums. Enough to spend enough time here to get 1600 posts, share rumours, and chat to people. Do you actually think I'd waste my time here if I thought the other 99% were like the remaining noisy and frankly abusive whiners?

Yes, you have 1600+ posts but somehow the vocal minority of whiners drown you and other posters out and make all of Warseer a place not worth it for GW to gleam thoughts about their products. Anyone with a brain can look through certain threads and determine which points look valid and which points are empty.


If I could tell GW all the problems I have with their product, the only thing I could state I dislike that I know nearly every other person thinks, is price.

If you could tell? So you won't tell it because you think you're in the minority? That makes no sense. Tell it. Don't marginalize yourself. There are enough people out there who will try to do that for you. You already have 1600 posts what's another 1? There's also being critical and then there's being abusive. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being critical; stating that you don't like something and the precise reason why you don't like it. There's also nothing wrong with stating why you like something and the reasons that make you like it. Any smart company would be wise to look at both with consideration.

The bearded one
20-02-2012, 13:23
so, xxRavenxx, how are all those words being put in your mouth? Tasty?

"If I could tell GW" is more an expression rather than saying 'I won't post it on a forum, because GW won't read it'. I'm pretty sure he just means 'if he were given the oppertunity to vent problems he has to GW corporate directly/personally'. Besides, he did actually post it here, didn't he? In fact you quoted it!

shelfunit.
20-02-2012, 13:31
10,000 active posters overall.

Fair enough, but how many of the remaining 60,000 look, but don't log on, or have just given up?


What percentage of these are GW gamers?

What percentage of the GW gamers are here simply discussing a game they like, rather than being the vocal minority?

A phenomenal percentage are GW gamers, you just have to look at the GW sub-forums on here to find that out.


I bet there as many as... 100? GW disliking people lurking round warseer. Most of them have little more to say than "I dont like this" over and over, and I suspect from how much some posters hate GW, they don't actually play the games at all, so why cater to them?

I expect there are even less - as usual the ignorant bandwagoning of "not universally loving everything GW do = dislike/"hate" " colours more than just a few opinions on these boards. Perhaps if the dissenters were catered to a little more, GW would see their sales figures start to increase as oppose to decreasing year on year...




From recent memory, I remember the following topics that have been flogged like a dead horse: Dislike of finecast. Dislike of skulls on models. Dislike of big models. Dislike of LotR getting new books when time could be used on 40k books. Dislike of 40k getting too many books when fantasy needs more books. Dislike of liquid greenstuff. Dislike of the new paint range.

In what way is pointing out the problems of FC "beating a dead horse"? Has every FC model you stock been perfectly cast, and if not have you sent it back? If you have, why bother? Isn't that just a waste of time? I have never seen a single post about disliking liquid GS - it is a wonderful product - it's release timing was not the greatest though.


And what this tells me, is that the dislike is normally based on either change, or that someone is not being personally catered to in what they want.

If I could tell GW all the problems I have with their product, the only thing I could state I dislike that I know nearly every other person thinks, is price. And guess what? They know. Because everyone would always like things to be cheaper. I'd like chicken to not cost £4. Tesco knows this. If chicken was £3, they know I'd like it to be £2 instead.

Or you could buy from a supermarket that either maintains chicken at £2/3 or even sells the same quality chicken at £1 - many people are now buying their "chicken" from other "supermarkets".


In the end, its a simple matter of how you gather feedback. Going and looking at what vocal people want can be marginally useful, but normally is a waste of time. Dropping into a couple of random stores and asking a random sample of customers if they're enjoying themselves, and what they like, is much much more useful.

SunTzu has already said all there needs to be said on this.


Because I clearly didn't state that I see it as only 1% of the forum users being deliberately contrary, "GW hating" and so forth.

Fortunate really as I have yet to see any GW "hating" anywhere on these forums.



I definately didn't use the words vocal minority.

Yes you did, in the post you wrote before this one.

lbecks
20-02-2012, 14:11
so, xxRavenxx, how are all those words being put in your mouth? Tasty?

"If I could tell GW" is more an expression rather than saying 'I won't post it on a forum, because GW won't read it'. I'm pretty sure he just means 'if he were given the oppertunity to vent problems he has to GW corporate directly/personally'. Besides, he did actually post it here, didn't he? In fact you quoted it!

He stated that his only perceived valid concern, price, is valid because others think it's too high too. He might have other concerns/criticisms but they might not be popular. That's self marginalization.

xxRavenxx
20-02-2012, 14:20
so, xxRavenxx, how are all those words being put in your mouth? Tasty?

"If I could tell GW" is more an expression rather than saying 'I won't post it on a forum, because GW won't read it'. I'm pretty sure he just means 'if he were given the oppertunity to vent problems he has to GW corporate directly/personally'. Besides, he did actually post it here, didn't he? In fact you quoted it!

Don't you dare bring your logic near this thread. Can't you see we're disturbing perfectly good sensationalism? Its best we quietly leave...

Reinholt
20-02-2012, 15:02
To comment on several things that are recurring in this thread:

1 - In terms of "who should GW be listening to", the answer is a multifaceted one. They need to listen to the customers in their stores. They need to listen to their customers not in their stores. They need to listen to people who are interested but not yet playing. They need to listen to people who have stopped playing. All of them will have different reasons for where they stand, and GW needs to find a way to align their product such that it could cover the largest group of people possible while also growing the "people who are interested" pie overall.

Only surveying at stores or only surveying online would be insanity; you have huge sampling bias, and the most important people to talk to are probably the ones who are not yet playing but might, and the ones who quit playing but are not loud about it. I have plenty of friends who quit GW games that don't post on forums, and don't talk trash about GW. They just quit and moved on, because GW was no longer delivering enough value that they wanted to play the games. That's the segment you need to be careful not to miss, and if you only go to your forums and your stores, they won't be there.

2 - On the topic of release schedules: GW very much likes the bulk release method for this army, and as long as they stick with that, there will be long periods where things do not get upgraded. On one hand, it creates stability, but on the other hand, it creates imbalance and possible boredom. They balance fantasy / 40k / lotr about as well as could be expected right now. If they want to fix it, they would need to move to a release model where everyone (or at least many) gets something in each wave.

3 - On the topic of what the GW staffer is saying: some of it is on target, some of it is off target, some of it is dated, and some of it is essentially speculation and neither right nor wrong because it's not even in the same framework. So I find it hard to find that person particularly credible given some of what I have seen from the company.

4 - I think the truth is somewhere in the middle on Warseer. We have some intelligent supportive comments. We have some intelligent critical comments. We have a lot of fans. We have some pretty inane or offensive views from both sides. It's pretty much the same as life.

lbecks
20-02-2012, 15:28
Somehow I wonder what the response would be if it were GW instead of Nike "stating that they do" care about communicating with their customers. We're generally inclined not to take things GW say at face value (or in other cases fawning shock and disbelief in the face of hyperboles). I remember the threads speculating things like finecast and the sisters WD codex were conspiracies!

When what you say, what you do, and customer consideration are aligned you've developed trust. So I think the response would be skeptical because people don't feel an alignment between what GW does and customer consideration. And the response about Nike was because Raven said a large company like Nike wouldn't care to communicate with customers as a default operating practice.

t-tauri
20-02-2012, 22:21
A number of no content posts removed. Any more will bring warnings.