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Tayrod
18-02-2012, 00:23
Lately I've seen a few posters saying that Chaos Lords are overprized/underpowered, and that sorcerers gives you a much better bang for your buck, so my question, dear warseerites is simple: What would GW have to do with the Chaos Lords, to make you indifferent between taking a Chaos Lord, and a Chaos Sorcerer Lord?

Drop points? Add rules? Change stats? Add army-wide effects?

Let the brainstorming begin!

Also: Feel free to go OT and tell us how you would fix other fighter lords (like High elf princes) etc.

pointyteeth
18-02-2012, 00:49
Give Chaos Lords Ld 10 and a small point drop. A change in what Marks do would be nice too.

Doommasters
18-02-2012, 02:49
Chaos Lords give passive bonuses to the unit they are with provided they have the same Mark

Khorne: +1S and Unbreakable (Khorne warriors fight to the last man and never run from sure death)

Nurgle: +1T immune to Poison and Killing Blow

Slannesh: ASF

Tezzentch: No idea at this stage


Magic Item:

Axe of Khorne 70pts
HKB 5+
Heroic Challenge; If a character refuses a challenge or uses a unit champion to accept a challenge when a character is in the unit the unit suffers 2d6 S5 hits with no armor saves allowed.
Blood for the blood god; The wielder of the axe of khorne rolls twice on the EotG when he kills a character or monster in close combat (MI does not count as a monster)

Gift of Chaos:

Rage of Khorne 100pts
May only be given to a chaos lord or Daemon Prince with MoK
+3 to Dispel
MR2
+3 Ward save when in close combat

IcedCrow
18-02-2012, 02:55
My chaos lord already tears apart things. Remove the ability to toss six dice at spells hoping for IF and remove the insta-kill spells, put a cap on unit size to prevent death stars, and suddenly people don't have it in their minds that they *have* to take level 4 wizards with them wherever they go.

Doommasters
18-02-2012, 03:01
My chaos lord already tears apart things. Remove the ability to toss six dice at spells hoping for IF and remove the insta-kill spells, put a cap on unit size to prevent death stars, and suddenly people don't have it in their minds that they *have* to take level 4 wizards with them wherever they go.

Lets be honest they are not going to change the whole rule book to make combat lords equal to Lvl 4 Wizards now are they. +1LD and killing a few extra dudes are turn is peanuts compared to a lvl4 caster and we all know it!

Point and case is OK, SM with everything and +1LD Banner, why would you ever take a Tyrant outside of fluff reasons?

Doommasters
18-02-2012, 03:11
My chaos lord already tears apart things. Remove the ability to toss six dice at spells hoping for IF and remove the insta-kill spells, put a cap on unit size to prevent death stars, and suddenly people don't have it in their minds that they *have* to take level 4 wizards with them wherever they go.

My Chaos Sorcerer not only kills warmachines and most other characters in combat but is a Lvl4 and can dominate in the magic phase.

TsukeFox
18-02-2012, 04:09
IF requirements needs to change. Insteaad of double sixes it should be the majority of the dice rolled need to 6s and meet the casting requirement. No IF on 2 dice. Further the miscast chart needs to be worse. Bring back "opponent gets to cast a spell with no chances of dispell."

Leadership banner should be 30+ points.


Ogres.....make me sick. Maybe if their casters had WS 2 & lower strength( save the Firebelly, he looks like a combat beast) things would be a little more fair.

TsukeFox
18-02-2012, 04:11
Lords need to be cheaper-RnF can easily out preform lords & heros

Duke Ramulots
18-02-2012, 04:45
I agree theyre overpriced a tad, but to say rank and file guys out preform them is absolute rubbish. Yes equal point of decked out chosen will kill more than the lord does, but they will also die and take up more space on the line. How does that mean they out-preform them?

Doommasters
18-02-2012, 04:54
Chaos lords should be monster and character killing machines that give passive bonuses to their troops! Pretty dam simple really.

At least then you have a few reasons to take them.

Valnir
18-02-2012, 05:26
Chaos lords should be monster and character killing machines that give passive bonuses to their troops! Pretty dam simple really.

At least then you have a few reasons to take them.

Isn't that the problem with most armies' Fighter Lords? Wouldn't that passive buff almost be needed for all of them then? As it stands at the very least there should be a much harsher penalty for throwing champs into a losing challenge and for refusing challenges altogether IMHO. Perhaps a negative -1 to their break test or some such? you'd think that with a unit seeing it's leader bolt to the back of the unit or seeing some lord tear the champion apart would have some psychological effect on the unit.

Doommasters
18-02-2012, 05:29
Isn't that the problem with most armies' Fighter Lords? Wouldn't that passive buff almost be needed for all of them then? As it stands at the very least there should be a much harsher penalty for throwing champs into a losing challenge and for refusing challenges altogether IMHO. Perhaps a negative -1 to their break test or some such? you'd think that with a unit seeing it's leader bolt to the back of the unit or seeing some lord tear the champion apart would have some psychological effect on the unit.

Yes but this thread is about chaos lords, there does need to be a shift in thinking to how make all combat lords equal to lvl4's. Not to mention chaos lords have always been super powerful in comparison to most other armies lords, not many heroes and monsters should be a match for a chaos lord 1v1.

slayer8045
18-02-2012, 05:42
Get rid of the puppet and the chance at a 3+ ward and you might see less lvl 4 sorcerers and more Warrior Lords.

TsukeFox
18-02-2012, 05:51
I agree theyre overpriced a tad, but to say rank and file guys out preform them is absolute rubbish. Yes equal point of decked out chosen will kill more than the lord does, but they will also die and take up more space on the line. How does that mean they out-preform them?

Most lords have what 4/5 attacks? Those attacks can easily fluff on the roll to hit-
I have scene Grimgor fluff all his attacks against skaven slaves.

Let us take a 5*4 block of an armies "elite infantry" (excluding chosen):
Thats ten attacks that more often or not hit & wound more often than one "fighty character."
Let us not consider how more combat effective a horde of infantry performs over "fighty chars."

Don Zeko
18-02-2012, 06:06
Most lords have what 4/5 attacks? Those attacks can easily fluff on the roll to hit-
I have scene Grimgor fluff all his attacks against skaven slaves.

Let us take a 5*4 block of an armies "elite infantry" (excluding chosen):
Thats ten attacks that more often or not hit & wound more often than one "fighty character."
Let us not consider how more combat effective a horde of infantry performs over "fighty chars."

Exactly. If they changed the game to make magic less effective but nothing else, I wouldn't take more lords. I'd take fewer characters and more troops. fighty characters need to buff their units, get cheaper, or both. As far as Chaos Lords are concerned, I think that bonuses to strength or toughness are too much, but i'd have no problem with giving their unit hatred, killing blow, poisoned attacks, re-rolls to charge distances, or maybe allowing the lord's eye of the gods roll to apply to his unit. Possibly you could let marked chaos lords give their mark to their unit for free or some such. one or two of those options and a points drop or +1 leadership would be quite reasonable, i think.

Doommasters
18-02-2012, 06:18
Exactly. If they changed the game to make magic less effective but nothing else, I wouldn't take more lords. I'd take fewer characters and more troops. fighty characters need to buff their units, get cheaper, or both. As far as Chaos Lords are concerned, I think that bonuses to strength or toughness are too much, but i'd have no problem with giving their unit hatred, killing blow, poisoned attacks, re-rolls to charge distances, or maybe allowing the lord's eye of the gods roll to apply to his unit. Possibly you could let marked chaos lords give their mark to their unit for free or some such. one or two of those options and a points drop or +1 leadership would be quite reasonable, i think.

If they did that I still wouldn't use one, still not good enough TBH. If that was what an exhalted provided I would take more combat ones, taking a kitted out Chaos lord means you don't have a lvl4 one unit getting a free mark and hatred vs everything a chaos sorc offers.............yea right i will keep the sorc everyday of the week.

Don Zeko
18-02-2012, 06:24
If they did that I still wouldn't use one, still not good enough TBH. If that was what an exhalted provided I would take more combat ones, taking a kitted out Chaos lord means you don't have a lvl4 one unit getting a free mark and hatred vs everything a chaos sorc offers.............yea right i will keep the sorc everyday of the week.

Chaos is a bit of a special case in this respect, since most other armies are capable of taking a fighter lord and a mage at 2500 or 2400. To my mind the challenge isn't making fighting characters viable alternatives to mages, but to make them viable alternatives to more points spent on troops. In the case of a chaos lord, I would think that you should both reduce the cost by maybe 30 to 50 points and include one or two of those buffs, or perhaps tie the buffs to marks (poison for nurgle, hatred for khorne, Magic resistance 2 or 3 for tzeentch, maybe ASF for slaanesh?).

MasterValrik
18-02-2012, 06:26
Alot good ideas in here, why does it seem GW always messing up in each edition, some times it feels somethings get better but other things become crap. I am working on a WoC army as we speak, and have yet to play one game of 8th edition, but what I am learning is go with magic, no two ways about it, I think magic should be unique for each race, AKA Wood Elves Dark Elves, etc. WoC should have good magic, but there bread and butter should be the Lord and his units not the wizard shooting fireballs from his eyes, makes all the armies almost the same imo. So without knowing to much, fixing a Lord, Beef him up, leave point cost where it is, but give him some type of invunerablity toward magic, or allow him to dispell a spell amied at his unit he is attached to, maybe its a one time effect. But the gods have to favor their champion some how or he/she wouldnt be the chossen one.

Sexiest_hero
18-02-2012, 06:40
Sorc-lords need their combat states reduced.

Duke Ramulots
18-02-2012, 06:55
Most lords have what 4/5 attacks? Those attacks can easily fluff on the roll to hit-
I have scene Grimgor fluff all his attacks against skaven slaves.

Let us take a 5*4 block of an armies "elite infantry" (excluding chosen):
Thats ten attacks that more often or not hit & wound more often than one "fighty character."
Let us not consider how more combat effective a horde of infantry performs over "fighty chars."

If bad rolls is your stance, than there is no debating with you. You can fluff all your attacks in any scenario. That being said, only having a 25mm frontage is worth a ton when you think about what you can bring to bear on the enemy.

TsukeFox
18-02-2012, 07:03
Mm kinda-how often do people complain about failing to cast spells -? Not often

With combat chars one always needs 3+ to hit-oddly enough those 1s &2s show way too often.
RnF just average out better.

Doommasters
18-02-2012, 07:30
Sorc-lords need their combat states reduced.

This along does nothing, I will still take a lvl4 even if the combat stats are reduced. The biggest problem is magic and if you don't take a lvl4 in a competitive match is is hard to win because magic has huge potential to win games on its own. Not every game but one good hex or dwellers etc is pretty much game over, without +4 to dispel they will draw out your dice and them BOOM!

Can't tell you how many times purple sun and raped my army and not having a dispel scroll and lvl4 makes it that much more likely. It is all well and good having small combat buffs for Exhalteds becuase u can still take sorc lord. The problem if you take a chaos lord it has to be on par with a lvl4 for anyone to take it more than once.

If I play and army with Vamps and my opponent has no lvl4 I will probably win, +1 ld and 3-4 dead rnr guys is nothing compared to and entire phase of the game dominated by one caster.


You have to think what is worth;

1) Being able to compete in the magic phase
2) +4 to Cast
3) +4 to Dispel
4) 4 Magic levels, plus potential access to the lore of your opponents wizard (maybe as many as 10 spells to choose from)
5) Better than most characters in combat, so you can get into combat and even kill war machines
6) 1 Extra power dice per game (on average)
7) Can operate from turn one until the end of the game, chaos lord has to get into combat which and may only be dealing damage for 2-3 turns of the game. Yes you could blow up you sorc but how often does that ever happen.

Ask yourself what would it take for a Chaos lord to be worth taking over that? Because in a 2500pt game you will only get one realistically.

People say oh magic is not that good and it does not win games, well that is BS it does win games! A combat lord can't kill a deathstar on his own, a sorc can though! Every seen DE rape an entire elite unit in one turn with a single hex/buff on their units...I have many a time. No combat lord can do that. What about a Slann, would you dream of taking an old blood in a competitive match over the slann?

It is a joke how bad combat lords are in this edition. Of all the issues with 8th edition this one pisses me off the most, GW has dropped the ball big time.

I would be interested to see how good a chaos lord would have to be before you would put your hand over your heart and say 'yes' I would take a chaos lord over a sorc lord to a serious tournament tthat your sole goal was to win.

Lordy
18-02-2012, 07:42
They should be LD10 for sure, they are Lords of chaos!, they should have the best LD in the game.

They need to to grant Warrior units they join immune to panic or something too, noone is running away when you have a Chaos Lord in the unit.

Askari
18-02-2012, 09:08
They need to provide something the rest of the army does not.

You don't need more attacks, Chaos Warriors give you plenty. You don't need resilience, Chosen of Tzeentch are disgustingly hard. You don't need the magic attacks or mobility, Chaos Knights do that fine.

So they need to provide something else, Leadership is one but a Sorcerer does that too. How about Hatred, Stubborn, Killing Blow? How about extra dispel dice, negatives to enemy casting? How about allowing 1 unit of Chaos Knights or Chosen as core? Things like that is what they need to do, not just hit harder than other Lords in combat, as your troops already hit harder than everyone else's troops.

Doommasters
18-02-2012, 09:35
Agree with above,

Not taking a lvl4 is a huge downside to the chaos lord, so you need incentives to use put him in the army. A unit of chosen as core would not be a good idea though!

Von Wibble
18-02-2012, 11:43
Chaos is a bit of a special case in this respect, since most other armies are capable of taking a fighter lord and a mage at 2500 or 2400. To my mind the challenge isn't making fighting characters viable alternatives to mages, but to make them viable alternatives to more points spent on troops. In the case of a chaos lord, I would think that you should both reduce the cost by maybe 30 to 50 points and include one or two of those buffs, or perhaps tie the buffs to marks (poison for nurgle, hatred for khorne, Magic resistance 2 or 3 for tzeentch, maybe ASF for slaanesh?).

This is a very accurate point of view imo.

Combat heroes and lords need a significant points drop across the board, or rules need introducing to reduce the number of attacks that can come their way, thus allowing them to be bought more cheaply as protection is less necessary.

I would suggest a 30% points drop on all combat characters is not completely out of line at all, even for the ones that add buffs to units (well, maybe not the warrior priest...).

I would also make buffs given to units (eg necrotects hatred) affect the unit for any round in which the character was attached, even if that character dies during the round. People might use necrotects if they didn't have to invest so much in protecting them from dying in round 1 thus not giving their bonus...

With this suggestion a chaos lord would cost about 145 points, and I'd still want him to be able to provide a buff (the suggestion above is a good one).

Also magic would need to be toned down a little. The lore of fire or heavens represent what should be the power level of magic imo. Shadow, death, beasts, life all need weakening somewhat.

Mr.Sparkle
18-02-2012, 12:02
Adding to a units abilities just increases the temptation to create death stars.

What about army wide buffs to all units with the same mark?

Khorne- killing blow
Nurgle- poisoned attacks/cause fear
Slaanesh- stubborn/asf?
Tzeentch - Not sure here


Could lead back to single god armies to get the most benefit out of your lord.

TrueKin
18-02-2012, 12:35
Give fighty Lords something that makes them vastly superior generals when compared to their Wizard counterparts, or restrict the rules so that a lvl 3+ Wizard can't be the army General. I'd also make the Marks affect characters differently from troops. (Old school: MoT is fighty characters only, making them minor Wizards, MoN gives +1T, etc.)

What really would make me choose Chaos Lord over Sorcerer Lord any day would be to give them the ability to counteract magic. Bonus to dispel rolls would be probably the simplest solution, if not the best. I already favor fighty Lords over Wizards, but would never take one to a competitive game in an army like WoC.

theshoveller
18-02-2012, 12:56
I think all fighting Lords choices should have a mild points reduction (the ones in the new books are probably fine, that said), but not too great a reduction. If they're too cheap, we regress back to 4th and 5th edition where regiments are just support systems for characters.

Texhnolyze
18-02-2012, 12:56
LD needs to be an important stat again. Right now everyone and their mom takes a wizard lord and the +1 ld banner and then everyone (well almost) got bloody ld 10 anyway, and then you toss on rerolls from the bsb, and you can practically ignore LD for the rest of the game.

Remove inspiring presence from wizards, make it exclusive to fighter lords/heroes, then make the bsb an upgrade that can only be taken if the army is lead by a model that can grant inspiring presence.
Then faq the gdm LD flag to not affect inspiring presence.

If there is an army that get especially hampered by this, put a rule in their army book ie "the slan gives inspiring presence because loosing a toad will make lizards cry"

kramplarv
18-02-2012, 13:14
Nah, the lord is ok. The combat mechanincs and the magic system aint. The step up is, imho, one of the most boring and oversimplified rules ever written to this game. :)

the combat mechanics, especally the "to hit" must be changed so that high WS can hit low WS on 2+. using the same mechanics as the "to wound" is my quick fix.

remove the silly non-dangerous miscast table and replace it with something like this;
2-6 DEAD
7, D3 wounds,
8, 2D3 wounds
9-12 DEAD

(maybe not that extreme, I made this up on the run. But I honestly think that at least 50% of the miscast results should remove the wizard from play)

thesoundofmusica
18-02-2012, 13:21
What they need imo is either something comparable to that of a lvl4 sorc, OR something to counter the level4 wizard of your enemy. Anything else would have impact on other aspects of the game imo. This is about sorcs vs lords after all.

Liber
18-02-2012, 13:25
Give Chaos Lords Ld 10 and a small point drop. A change in what Marks do would be nice too.


BOOM!

Simple and effective...which makes it unlikely GW will implement it :P

Seriously though combat/fighty generals should just be cheaper than equivelent magic users in this game, for every army...would fix alot and make warhammer more fun.

BattleofLund
18-02-2012, 13:29
So without knowing too much, fixing a Lord, beef him up, leave point cost where it is, but give him some type of *1 invulnerability towards magic, or *2 allow him to dispel a spell aimed at the unit he is attached to, maybe it's a one time effect. But the gods have to favor their champion somehow or he/she wouldn't be the chosen one.

Like *1 Necrotic Phylactery or *2 Book of Secrets and Dispel Scroll?

Kayosiv
18-02-2012, 13:53
Remove inspiring presence from wizards, make it exclusive to fighter lords/heroes, then make the bsb an upgrade that can only be taken if the army is lead by a model that can grant inspiring presence.
Then faq the gdm LD flag to not affect inspiring presence.

If there is an army that get especially hampered by this, put a rule in their army book ie "the slan gives inspiring presence because loosing a toad will make lizards cry"

This... makes a lot of sense. Vampires would need a special exception too for obvious reasons.

sninsch
18-02-2012, 13:54
Remove inspiring presence from wizards, make it exclusive to fighter lords/heroes, then make the bsb an upgrade that can only be taken if the army is lead by a model that can grant inspiring presence.
Then faq the gdm LD flag to not affect inspiring presence.


I like it this way and houseruled it in our game groop in a simular way. The only wizards which can use inspiring presence are Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, Slaan, Vampries and Grey Seers because of the fluff for them. We also have a rule that for every wizard you need a combat charakter.

I think this problem to fix a chaos lord is a hard one. The regular troops make to much damage so a char isn't needed to win combats, other armies don't have this luxury and with weak rank and file some high strength attacks make a difference.

In my opinion making chaos lord a lot cheaper, or give him extra buffs isn't fluffy. How about adding this rules to WoC and Daemons:

All marked units are shiftet one slot. So a unit of warriors with a mark became a special choise...
If a Chaoslord leads the army all troops with the same mark as he has don't shift a slot.

The Low King
18-02-2012, 14:20
Combat characters are ok, not as bad as many people make out.

Possible fixes (in my veiw):

1) Lower wizard leadership, remove standard of discipline's ability to boost the generals leadership.
2) The general of the army cant have wizard levels (with a few exceptions like vampires and slan)
3) Combat characters provide bonus' to units
4) Combat characters cheaper/more attacks
5) When a general dies every units takes something similar to the undead crumble test

In order to solve their problem you dont need to make them better than wizards. All you need to do is make it so that a combat lord is good enough that leaving him alive is bad and killing him has a major effect on the game. Once killing them becomes a priority then people will start taking more combat characters to kill other combat characters....its a circle.

For example, in my dwarf combat list i took a Dwarf lord to replace the loss of my character killing warmachines. Being able to kill a chaos BSB or general really helped win me a lot of games. Then my opponants started taking more combat characters to kill my lord because otherwise he was almost indestructable.

the Witch kings regent
18-02-2012, 16:13
Chaos lords are WS 8 S5 T5 W3 I7 and have 5 attacks base. and ten guys can as you say fluff on thier roll to hit just as much. except the it is easyier to make them need a 4+ to hit instead of a 3+. chaos lords are fine. you just need to play with them a little bit and find thier use. hunting characters is great. and if its just the champion then hey thats a few bonus points to the combat resolution. and if the wizard refuses to accept a challenge then they got to the back of the unit and cant cast spells. so its win/win

Tayrod
18-02-2012, 16:13
So I've read through your replies so far, and most of you agree he needs 1) new marks and 2) unit buffs to be viable;


What about something like this: Everything stay as it is; but introduce these marks to the chaos lords (points pending discussion). All marks stack, so if you're "beloved of slaanesh", you also get the two other mark bonuses.

Please note; this is all from the top of my head, so it might be wastly unfair, and may encourage death stars even more, even so, what do you think? How much should the different marks be worth? Would you take a chaos lord, if these marks were made avaliable?

Khorne
- Lesser mark of Khorne: The character is subject to frenzy. In addition, if the army contains no wizards, the lord will receive +2 to dispel all spells.
- Greater mark of Khorne: The character is subject to hatred, and gets magic resistance 5+.
- Champion of Khorne: The character may only join units with the mark of Khorne, but if he does, the entire unit gets the hatred special rule. In addition, the magic resistance is increased to 4+ and will always work, even if the spell normally does not allow saves of any kind.

Tzeentch:
- Lesser mark of Tzeentch: The character gets a stackable 6+ ward save.
- Greater mark of Tzeentch: The character becomes a level 2 wizard
- The great trickster of Tzeentch: The character may only join units with the same mark, but if he does, the unit may re-roll the dices when declaring a charge (both dices must be re-rolled). In addition, the characters wizard level is increased to level 3.

Nurgle:
- Lesser mark of Nurgle: Enemies suffer – 1 ws in close combat, and -1 to hit when shooting at the character, or the unit he is with.
- Greater Mark of Nurgle: The character receives +1 wound
- Plague spreader of Nurgle: The character may only join units with the same mark. The entire unit (including the character) gets the poisoned attack special rule. In addition, all units (friend or foe) within D6 of the unit (ignore units with the mark of nurlge), will be forced to take D6+2 toughness tests (with no armour save allowed) every friendly close combat phase. These causalities count towards combat resolution

Slaanesh
- Lesser mark of Slaanesh: The character is immune to fear, terror, and panic.
- Greater mark of Slaanesh: The character receives the always strike first special rule, and +1 initiative
- Beloved of Slaanesh: The character may only join units with the same mark, but if he does, the entire unit gets the always strike first special rule. In addition, the generals inspiring presence is increased to 18 (or 24 if he is mounted on a large target).

Tayrod
18-02-2012, 16:21
I just have to throw this in here; I think it's a very valid point from over at the "Why are there no fighters charachters anymore?" discussion in the tactics forum


Combat characters used to do a lot of important stuff besides win combat, which you are correct in that it is now marginalized. Killing enemies before they could strike to protect the unit was halted because of step up and it also reduces their survivability if they are attacked because there is no way to reduce attacks back against them. Combat characters used to add a comparatively huge number of attacks to a unit because a frontage of 5 usually meant 6 attacks if you took a champion. A hero or lords 3-4 attacks was a big deal. Now with 11 attacks with the same frontage, or possible horde formations, the lords same 3-4 attacks don't mean nearly as much. Spell casters can cripple or destroy entire units in 1 turn. Combat characters on average kill like 2 guys a turn. There are of course extreme examples where lords can get 5-6 attacks with re-rollable hits and reliably kill a lot of guys in a combat, but they are generally very expensive, at least as expensive as a caster, maybe more.

People spout that that magic is unreliable but that is an argument that hasn't been given thought. Combat lords are just as capable as rolling all 1's as casters are getting a bad winds of magic roll.

The real issue is that combat characters used to be good for units offense and defense. They killed stuff which in turn reduced attacks back against the unit, increasing survivability. Now casters in 8th are required for both offense and defense. They help you cast spells as well as dispel them, making them a much better deal in terms of making their points back. Throw in that the base 8 lores have outrageously strong spells and casters have a leg up this edition.

the Witch kings regent
18-02-2012, 16:23
if you do that then to make a dark elf dread lord or a high elf guy then your have to take off 40 or 50 too. chaos lords are 180+ for good reason. with the best blank character statline and basic armour being better then all the other armies standard character armor you have nothing to complain about. and thier chaos lords their not supposed to be LD 10. they care about their own means more then fighting a campaigne and the LD 9 comes from the idea of using warriors to better his own means of gratification of his chosen lord or god. is you start giving all the characters LD then you might as well get rid of terror, fear, and panic all together. some armies will have caracters with LD10 because they are strong in mind but no body(elves). chaos is muscle bound blunderheads. Marks shout change stats of lords and heroe characters though. like khorne gives you +1 strength and frenzy, nurgle gives +1 toughness and its normal ristrictions, tszeench sould be a -1 strength but make you a Lvl 1 wizard with MR2, and slaneesh should be +1 initiative and normal restrictions. of just the stat adjustment and normal additions from the mark.

IcedCrow
18-02-2012, 16:59
If your sole goal is to win with as little effort as possible, sure a level 4 is the way to go. That being said, I know a few guys who still take chaos lords and a couple of them even place high in the tournaments that they go to.

While GW gives people the cripple-I-Win button, they will take it over and over again. If magic remains to keep the same over the top potential that it does, there's nothing you will do to sway people who are looking for the easiest time away from their I win button, save for making a chaos-lord an equal I win button, which is not possible with the current mechanics barring saying one hit = D6 hits into the unit that its fighting against or something silly.

I've had no problem with my chaos lord. That doesn't mean I will win every game but that's also not the sole point of why I play =) and the last event I used him I placed relatively high despite facing nearly all level 4s in return. There was only one other player who didn't go level 4 at that event.

Leogun_91
18-02-2012, 17:12
Make their challenges unavoidable, (fluff description is that they will just wade through the fray to get to fight the toughest thing and prove their worth to the gods), also make it so that champions can't answer the challenge, they cower in fear before them.
This way their very high stats will become really useful again.

thesoundofmusica
18-02-2012, 17:21
Giving the Lord unit buffs, isnt that kinda counter productive? If we want to move away from levels 4 (some spells are meant to be a counter to hordestars I believe?) is the right way really to buff units? I dunno....

yabbadabba
18-02-2012, 17:38
At the moment I'd be fixing enemy units in the front, then hitting the flank with my Combat Lord and a simple weapon giving more attacks. Put him in a small unit and that will probably be enough to break any non-stubborn/steadfast unit on the turn it has been charged.

kramplarv
18-02-2012, 18:08
I would love to have the 6th edition mark of tzeentch back. Nothing smells awesome like a chaos lord who is also a lvl4 wizard. :)

Doommasters
18-02-2012, 20:00
Chaos lords are WS 8 S5 T5 W3 I7 and have 5 attacks base. and ten guys can as you say fluff on thier roll to hit just as much. except the it is easyier to make them need a 4+ to hit instead of a 3+. chaos lords are fine. you just need to play with them a little bit and find thier use. hunting characters is great. and if its just the champion then hey thats a few bonus points to the combat resolution. and if the wizard refuses to accept a challenge then they got to the back of the unit and cant cast spells. so its win/win

If they were fine why don't more people use them in competitive games? I have not seen a chaos lord in a tourny in a very long time.

There stats should be:

WS8 S5 T5 W4 A5 I8 LD10

Special Rules

Patron of the Gods: The unit he joins may be gifted the Mark of Chaos taken by the Chaos lord
Reduces the cost of one unit, nice little bonus

Fearless Leader: All units within 12" are stubborn and the unit he joins is unbreakable
Chaos Lords are among the most powerful combat characters around, when fighting by a chaos lord warriors would rather die a glorious death than run from combat to save themselves

Lord of Chaos: Any Eye of the Gods bonuses bestowed on the Chaos Lord also benefit the unit he joins (unit can not be influenced by the warshrine if the lord is bestowing his gifts)
The gods of chaos rewards all those who stand to the death with the lords of chaos

Champion of Chaos: Chaos lords must issue and accept challenges, if a hero refuses a challenge or accepts with a unit champion when a hero is in the unit the unit suffers 2d6 S5 automatic hits to represent the lord butchering his way through the unit to find the leader.
Chaos lords never back down from a challenge and will fight there way to the back rank to engage their foe

Keep him at the same points cost but now he is a real combat general and I would happily take him over a Sorc Lord as he provides real benefits and alternative tactics on the battle field!

Rosstifer
18-02-2012, 20:24
I think Chaos Lords are viable at the moment, IF you run him on a Disc with the Stubborn Crown and a 3++ Ward. I've been play testing one at the moment and he's great at hoovering up any "Free" points (Pump Wagons, Chariots, Fast Cav etc...) Warmachine Hunting, and holding up any nasty unit you don't want to fight yet, or could potentially flank charge one of your blocks or something similar (For gods sake keep him in BSB range though!). I'm not really missing the level 4 as if you really want to stop a spell you just throw as many dice as possible, and the army as a whole is very resilient to magic.

However, one viable build does not a good choice make, and I'd really like to see him made more viable as a mighty character slaying, rank shredding monster in the middle of your army.

I very much like Tayrod's idea for this.

Don Zeko
18-02-2012, 21:44
if you do that then to make a dark elf dread lord or a high elf guy then your have to take off 40 or 50 too. chaos lords are 180+ for good reason. with the best blank character statline and basic armour being better then all the other armies standard character armor you have nothing to complain about. and thier chaos lords their not supposed to be LD 10. they care about their own means more then fighting a campaigne and the LD 9 comes from the idea of using warriors to better his own means of gratification of his chosen lord or god. is you start giving all the characters LD then you might as well get rid of terror, fear, and panic all together. some armies will have caracters with LD10 because they are strong in mind but no body(elves). chaos is muscle bound blunderheads. Marks shout change stats of lords and heroe characters though. like khorne gives you +1 strength and frenzy, nurgle gives +1 toughness and its normal ristrictions, tszeench sould be a -1 strength but make you a Lvl 1 wizard with MR2, and slaneesh should be +1 initiative and normal restrictions. of just the stat adjustment and normal additions from the mark.

I've been working under the assumption that the question here is what can be done in the upcoming 8th edition army books to make fighting characters competitive choices without re-writing the 8th edition core rules. So what I recommended for Chaos Lords can be done purely in the new WoC book whenever it comes out. If I was writing the new army books, I'd like to do something similar for the fighting lords of basically every other army as well when they get new books. In the case of Dark Elf Dreadlords, maybe giving his unit hatred in every round of combat instead of just the first, providing +1 strength in the first round, a bonus to armor save or a MWBD-esque weapon skill bonus. would all be viable options. Combine that with a points drop of maybe 30 points and I think he'd be quite reasonable (assuming, of course, that the Pendant of Khaeleth disappears or is nerfed into oblivion in the new book. If it stays in then Dreadlords with the pendant will remain unbalanced forever).

For High Elves, I'd want to do basically the same thing, but with a buff that feels characterful for the army. Maybe he could give magic resistance, stubborn, or something like that?

Gazak Blacktoof
18-02-2012, 21:54
I like the idea of emphasising their tenacity and the rewards bestowed on them by their god. Leogun's idea of allowing them to force challenges against specific individuals would make them much better. I think that granting them a Brettonian style blessing would also be a good idea. For example they get a free ward save, but have to accept challenges and not flee from combat, if they betray their god they get spawnified instantly.

Chaos lords need to stay expensive and impressive characters but granting them free defensive bonuses and the ability to force challenges allows them to be much more aggressive and a worthwhile addition.

pippin_nl
18-02-2012, 22:54
I think the resolution is not increasing the stats or granting extreme bonuses to entire units that are quite exceptional already. Make Chaos Warriors special and Chosen and Chaos Knights Rare, then for every Chaos Exalted you may make one Warrior unit Core or one Chosen / Knight unit Special and double that (or one Chosen / Knight unit Core) for a Chaos Lord. Obviously the marks have to be the same. Armies with just Sorcerers may just have to go to war with Forsaken...

Last Edition
18-02-2012, 22:59
I would give generals two different Inspiring Presence special rule - Fighter character 12" LD bubble and Wizard character 6" bubble. I don't think Chaos Lords is the problem alone (maybe a small price reduction) but rather wizard generals are as good generals as fighters.

kramplarv
18-02-2012, 23:05
The main problem with CL is that his fighting skills or his leadership is needed in the army. Since the crappy mechanics with step up came into the game those good stuff a Chaos lord can give are not needed. Chaos warriors are hard enough on their own to win fights. And they have high leadership.

xxRavenxx
18-02-2012, 23:23
I think that an extra couple of attacks on a lord wouldn't break the budget, but extra LD is not what the game needs. Making the whole army LD10 is just a problem unto itself.

What I'd really like to see happen to fix none wizards though is this:

A wizard is too busy casting spells to lead an army properly. Thus if they are your general they do not gain the Inspiring presence rule. Furthermore, any lord choice present must be your general. A hero may not be put in charge. No lord would defer his will to a lowly hero.

See, now you've got a dilemma. LD bubble, or Lvl 4 casters. Decide!

Drasanil
18-02-2012, 23:27
If they were fine why don't more people use them in competitive games? I have not seen a chaos lord in a tourny in a very long time.

There stats should be:

WS8 S5 T5 W4 A5 I8 LD10

Special Rules

Patron of the Gods: The unit he joins may be gifted the Mark of Chaos taken by the Chaos lord
Reduces the cost of one unit, nice little bonus

Fearless Leader: All units within 12" are stubborn and the unit he joins is unbreakable
Chaos Lords are among the most powerful combat characters around, when fighting by a chaos lord warriors would rather die a glorious death than run from combat to save themselves

Lord of Chaos: Any Eye of the Gods bonuses bestowed on the Chaos Lord also benefit the unit he joins (unit can not be influenced by the warshrine if the lord is bestowing his gifts)
The gods of chaos rewards all those who stand to the death with the lords of chaos

Champion of Chaos: Chaos lords must issue and accept challenges, if a hero refuses a challenge or accepts with a unit champion when a hero is in the unit the unit suffers 2d6 S5 automatic hits to represent the lord butchering his way through the unit to find the leader.
Chaos lords never back down from a challenge and will fight there way to the back rank to engage their foe

Keep him at the same points cost but now he is a real combat general and I would happily take him over a Sorc Lord as he provides real benefits and alternative tactics on the battle field!

Broken wish-listing much? If you get that I demand a blanket 2++ save for my elf lords (3++ for heroes to keep it fair) and the ability for them ignore the effects of harmful spells, because they're awesome magic-ninjas and that should be represented!

Hrogoff the Destructor
18-02-2012, 23:42
How about an "Unworthy Challenge" special rule?

If a Chaos character issue a challenge to an enemy unit containing a character inside and a unit champion accepts, the Chaos hero can choose to use one of their attacks to dispose of the unworthy combatant. Role to hit and to wound as normal. Should the hero slay the champion he issues a challenge again. Should he fail he fights with -1 attack in the challenge against the champion as normal.

In short they would have an opportunity to say "Pfff, don't even waste my time."

Drasanil
18-02-2012, 23:47
How about an "Unworthy Challenge" special rule?

If a Chaos character issue a challenge to an enemy unit containing a character inside and a unit champion accepts, the Chaos hero can choose to use one of their attacks to dispose of the unworthy combatant. Role to hit and to wound as normal. Should the hero slay the champion he issues a challenge again. Should he fail he fights with -1 attack in the challenge against the champion as normal.

In short they would have an opportunity to say "Pfff, don't even waste my time."

You mean he essentially gets double attacks? That sort of rule might work but it'd need a real draw back, as opposed to some joke -1 attack the second time he tries to murder the hopelessly under-qualified champ. Like if the lord fails to kill the enemy champion he gets spawned for his disgraceful showing.

Gazak Blacktoof
18-02-2012, 23:56
I'm not sure where you're getting double attacks from as that's not how I read what Hrogoff posted. The character makes one attack against the champion, if he kills him he issues another challenge. If he fails to kill him with the single attack he fights the champion with one less attack, having already rolled for it and failed to kill the obnoxious git.

Hrogoff the Destructor
19-02-2012, 00:06
I'm not sure where you're getting double attacks from as that's not how I read what Hrogoff posted. The character makes one attack against the champion, if he kills him he issues another challenge. If he fails to kill him with the single attack he fights the champion with one less attack, having already rolled for it and failed to kill the obnoxious git.

Yes, this is what I meant.

Doommasters
19-02-2012, 00:21
Broken wish-listing much? If you get that I demand a blanket 2++ save for my elf lords (3++ for heroes to keep it fair) and the ability for them ignore the effects of harmful spells, because they're awesome magic-ninjas and that should be represented!

Wish my chaos lord could throw 6 dice to get IF and blow up whole units, oh wait it cant so i will take a lvl4 that brings everything, may as well tear the chaos lord page out of the book because they suck!

The Low King
19-02-2012, 00:44
Wish my chaos lord could throw 6 dice to get IF and blow up whole units, oh wait it cant so i will take a lvl4 that brings everything, may as well tear the chaos lord page out of the book because they suck!

Thats a bit extream, ive seen combat characters do very well. Often they are 300 points that your enemy simply cant kill.

Also, your suggestions were a bit too good.


Having read the arguments after my last suggestions i think a simple combo would solve the weakness of combat characters.

1) Lower wizard leadership. Suddenly it really helps to have a combat lord general.
2) Make steadfast units not use inspiring presence (so characters in units then combat characters to kill the charcters in units....etc)
3) Make it so that a champ can only accept challenges if there isnt another character in the unit.

Doommasters
19-02-2012, 01:47
Thats a bit extream, ive seen combat characters do very well. Often they are 300 points that your enemy simply cant kill.

Also, your suggestions were a bit too good.


Having read the arguments after my last suggestions i think a simple combo would solve the weakness of combat characters.

1) Lower wizard leadership. Suddenly it really helps to have a combat lord general.
2) Make steadfast units not use inspiring presence (so characters in units then combat characters to kill the charcters in units....etc)
3) Make it so that a champ can only accept challenges if there isnt another character in the unit.


my suggestions were powerful to make the point that a couple of small changes won't fix the chaos combat lord, simply statistics at the end of the day. Lvl4 has a large impact on the outcome of a game and creates an entire phase of the game for you. Chaos lord meh you have chosen, warriors and knights who needs them if they don't bring anything to the battle field.

Panzer MkIV
19-02-2012, 01:47
What's all this nagging about caster lords having too much leadership anyway? With the exception of Vampire lords, Slann and various special characters they always have lower ld than combat lords.

gdsora
19-02-2012, 01:49
What's all this nagging about caster lords having too much leadership anyway? With the exception of Vampire lords, Slann and various special characters they always have lower ld than combat lords.

Most people stick the +1 LD banner in the unit with the wizard general usually giving them the same LD as the combat lords.

Panzer MkIV
19-02-2012, 01:53
Most people stick the +1 LD banner in the unit with the wizard general usually giving them the same LD as the combat lords.

And combine a Chaos Lord with the +1 LD and you suddenly have the magical leadership of 10 instead of 9...

Only the 3 Elf armies can achieve that with a caster lord.

dementian
19-02-2012, 01:56
Unfortunately it isn't the Chaos Lords fault in this matter or any Combat Lords for that matter. Magic is the most potentially devastating aspect of the game at this point and I don't believe that making Chaos Lords equally devastating is the right way to do it. I feel that in order for combat lords to be effective Magic and casters need to be toned down.

Doommasters
19-02-2012, 01:58
And combine a Chaos Lord with the +1 LD and you suddenly have the magical leadership of 10 instead of 9...

Only the 3 Elf armies can achieve that with a caster lord.

Vamps have ld10 Slann.....

Paint it Red
19-02-2012, 02:49
Major problem with chaos lords is that they are not that much better than exalted heroes in close combat. The monsters that they can ride are bad as well and just make a big point sink. Elf lords are better than them because they get to re-roll to hit, human lords are also Ld9 but much cheaper, vampire lords are just as good in combat now and can cast magic.

The major problem is that they have no area effect. They belong in close combat and while they are not in close combat make the rest of your low model count army vulnerable. So, they need to be able to effect games outside of combat. Give them something like chaos powers like all units in 12" get 6+ regeneration, or gives vanguard to 3 units before the game, etc.

dementian
19-02-2012, 03:28
The major problem is that they have no area effect. They belong in close combat and while they are not in close combat make the rest of your low model count army vulnerable. So, they need to be able to effect games outside of combat. Give them something like chaos powers like all units in 12" get 6+ regeneration, or gives vanguard to 3 units before the game, etc.

How do you even think those suggestions are reasonable?

Jack of Blades
19-02-2012, 03:45
If magic is nerfed why would I take a lord over more chaos warriors still? I prefer suggestions such as the obvious making inspiring presence unique to them and any unit in close combat with a chaos lord takes break tests at -1 or D3 leadership with the lord's wounds caused counting as double the amount for CR if he kills a character, champion or monster in the same combat.

I don't know exactly - just give them something that affects psychology. Chaos lords are almost unstoppable and their enemies know this, so it will have more of an effect on them than going up against just more chaos warriors who are at least not as terrifying. Think the Witch King or Nazguls in LotR - they weren't powerful because they could take out armies single handedly but because there was nothing with a personal good chance of facing and beating them unlike say ''deploy pikemen against that cavalry''. A chaos lord being better than troops should not only be reflected by stats but by psychology.

Athlan na Dyr
19-02-2012, 04:32
Personally I would have the Lords unlock marks. So, the Mark of Khorne would bestow frenzy, but if a Chaos Lord was in the army then there would be an option to buy the Mark of Khorne+ which would cause a -1 penalty to casting scores (penalty capped at -3) for any spell within 6 or 12" of the unit. Either that or allow the unit to take an icon in addition to the Mark with the Icon bestowing the additional effect. Similarly, the Lord would be buffed a bit more with a corresponding price tag, to prevent a lord and Level 4 in a resonably priced game (so the points limit would have to be greater than 3000 points to have both a level 4 and a Chaos Lord)

So some musing for the Icons/ Mark+
Khorne: The Defiance of the Blood God -1 penalty to casting scores for any spell cast within 12" of the unit (cumulative to a maximum penalty of -3)

Tzeentch: The Boon of Knowledge Unit can channel (on a 5+) and may cast a spell from the Lore of Tzeentch (roll randomly to determine at the start of the game) as a bound spell with a power level equal to the casting value of the spell.

Nurgle: The Gift of the Pestilent Grandfather Units without the Mark of Nurgle with 12" of the unit suffer a -1 to their toughness (cumulative to a maximum penalty of -3, cannot lower toughness below 1)

Slaanesh: The Torment of Ecstasy Enemy Units within 12" of the Unit suffer a -1 modifier to their leadership (cumulative to a maximum penalty of -3) and suffer 2D6 S3 hits at the start of each friendly magic phase

Rough pricing in the 40-70 point range or making the Lord bestow one (and the corresponding mark on the unit) for free
Only available to Chaos Warriors, Chaos Knights, Chosen - so no GW Marauders screwing around with magic.
Possibly making it so that if the Lord is marked, only the Icon of the same type can be chosen.
Other possibility is the Icon cost comes out of the Lord's points allotment (he can purchase up to, say, 3) and then they are bestowed upon a unit in Chaos armour who then have to pick the corresponding mark... hmmm

sulla
19-02-2012, 07:51
My chaos lord already tears apart things. Remove the ability to toss six dice at spells hoping for IF and remove the insta-kill spells, put a cap on unit size to prevent death stars, and suddenly people don't have it in their minds that they *have* to take level 4 wizards with them wherever they go.Yes and yes. I'm a huge fan of unit caps. If units were capped at about 20 wounds (larger for core units other than chaos warriors) and about half that for cav, magic missiles and standard shooting would be more meaningful and the super spells would be worse value for the cost.

Seperate out miscasts and irresstable force like in the last edition and the incentive to throw huge swathes of dice is lessened. Reduce the casting/dispelling bonus to +1 for lvl1/2 and +2 for lvl3/4 and you probably solve the great majority of imbalances between casters and between lores...

I wonder if reducing the amount of incoming attacks on characters might make combat characters more desirable; storm of magic capped it at only one model attacking a character on a fulcrum; that would mean rnf couldn't easily kill characters so your fighter types wouldn't have to devote so much of their magic item capacity to defence; it could be offence, or character killing, or even general unit buff type items like MR (which would be more useful in smaller units since they you would see more magic missiles and direct damage coming their way).

Long story short; Fix the basic rules and the characters are shown to be pretty good as they are.

kramplarv
19-02-2012, 09:40
I want my CL to have Heroic killing blow as a special rule, together with the awesome Challenge-rule Hrogaff (??) wrote on the last page! :)

kramplarv
19-02-2012, 09:42
P
Other possibility is the Icon cost comes out of the Lord's points allotment (he can purchase up to, say, 3) and then they are bestowed upon a unit in Chaos armour who then have to pick the corresponding mark... hmmm


be careful not to walk down the old Chaos space marine way, were the army had so many options in every possible way that the book became almost unplayable. :) (but still the funniest one though)

Gorbad Ironclaw
19-02-2012, 09:55
Personally I think the problem is that all he does it beat face. Sure, he does it better than the rest of the list but essentially he only does what the rest of the list also does. Mind you, that's not restricted to the Chaos Lord. I think it applies to almost all combat characters. They are neat, but they also tend to not be as "fun" as some of the more special characters (like mages) because you get to do fewer things with them. So IMO the thing to do would be to give Chaos Lords (and others) more things they can do. Whatever it is special orders they can issue, manouvers only possible with them, AoE buffs/debuffs, etc. Every character should bring something special to the table, enhancing the army in their own way.

The Low King
19-02-2012, 11:26
Boost to inspireing presence. Different generals grant different bonus'.

Wizard: Nothing
Lord: something good
Hero: something decent

Don Zeko
19-02-2012, 18:01
Boost to inspireing presence. Different generals grant different bonus'.

Wizard: Nothing
Lord: something good
Hero: something decent

This, as well as the suggestion that we nerf magic to fix the chaos lord, can't be done without re-writing the core rulebook. Realistically, this isn't going to happen for several years, so I think it would be more useful to think about changes that can be made in the upcoming army books.

Jind_Singh
19-02-2012, 18:23
Leave the Chaos lord as is, we don't need one man armies anymore!!

-slight drop in points cost on the bugger

-Give them access to a boosted version of their patron's mark to make them play different to exalted heroes (Khorne has frenzy, killing blow for e.g, Tzeenth has +1 ward save, redeploy D2 units after set up, Nurgle has -1Ws, to shoot and regen, Slaanesh has ITP and ld test to attack model but model can not use BSB re-roll).

And your done Ladies and Gentleman!!!

No need to mess with core rules, unit sizes, etc, as that ain't happening until a new ed (and even then don't waste your time wishing, it ain't happening), just make the Lord a good enough choice that a player will be tempted to take one over an Exalted or Level 4.

sulla
19-02-2012, 21:30
This, as well as the suggestion that we nerf magic to fix the chaos lord, can't be done without re-writing the core rulebook. Realistically, this isn't going to happen for several years, so I think it would be more useful to think about changes that can be made in the upcoming army books.The problem with this is that the faults with fighter characters are the faults with the main rules.

Fighter types are vulnerable to the many oncoming attacks from enemy units meaning they have to be deployed on the corner of units and spend their magic allowance on protection, reducing their utility.

There is no cap on unit size, meaning bigger units are safer; more bodies to soak up casualties and potentially, a huge amount of high strength horde attacks. Very few heroes can provide the same benefit as an extra rank on a great weapon horde.

Given those same huge units, and the pitiful damage a hero can do against them, mages are the only real option for dealing with these units.

So, if a general can't provide better ld than a mage lord (due to the Ld banner), and can't provide more kills than troops choices (particularly in armies with core great weapons), and can't deal with huge steadfast blocks... no amount of reasonable tinkering is going to 'fix' him, but a general rules rewrite will fix the imbalance between all fighters and mages. After all, why should O&G, TK and OK be disadvantaged just because their books came first. A main rules fix would benefit them as well. Fixing future fighters would just punish them further.

Sexiest_hero
19-02-2012, 22:45
I disagree sulla,Fighty heroes have many perks people tend to overlook. The first being Magic weapons to deal with pesky ethereal things. In the last vampire book, I've have a ethereal vampire or spirit host tie up units that just couldn't do anything to it. They can bring things like no armor save attacks, muli-wounding weapons, or become one man shield walls like the unkillible dreadlord, to the ultimate doombull blender. The chaos lord suffers for not being fighty enough, when the sorcerer lord can fight as good as other combat lords, rockk a 3+ and 3++ fly, and cast gateway while holding a puppet. In other words he suffers for the sorcerer lord being complete filth.

Havock
20-02-2012, 00:53
You mean he essentially gets double attacks? That sort of rule might work but it'd need a real draw back, as opposed to some joke -1 attack the second time he tries to murder the hopelessly under-qualified champ. Like if the lord fails to kill the enemy champion he gets spawned for his disgraceful showing.

That would suck, as he would still miss 1/3rd of the time. And he would probably still cost way too much. Cue laughing opponents.

What would be better is bidding, you can opt to challenge more than one character at the same time, but have to include potential newcomers in the challenge too.
So a relatively safe challenge against a Black Orc BSB and a goblin shaman could become very dire indeed when the Orc Lord and Several Gobbo heroes join in the fun.

Especially if we get a gauntlet of the duel-like gift/item would this stir the meta up a little. Although it would make the races with cheap great weapon swingers happy ;)

Don Zeko
20-02-2012, 04:23
The problem with this is that the faults with fighter characters are the faults with the main rules.

Fighter types are vulnerable to the many oncoming attacks from enemy units meaning they have to be deployed on the corner of units and spend their magic allowance on protection, reducing their utility.

There is no cap on unit size, meaning bigger units are safer; more bodies to soak up casualties and potentially, a huge amount of high strength horde attacks. Very few heroes can provide the same benefit as an extra rank on a great weapon horde.

Given those same huge units, and the pitiful damage a hero can do against them, mages are the only real option for dealing with these units.

So, if a general can't provide better ld than a mage lord (due to the Ld banner), and can't provide more kills than troops choices (particularly in armies with core great weapons), and can't deal with huge steadfast blocks... no amount of reasonable tinkering is going to 'fix' him, but a general rules rewrite will fix the imbalance between all fighters and mages. After all, why should O&G, TK and OK be disadvantaged just because their books came first. A main rules fix would benefit them as well. Fixing future fighters would just punish them further.

I don't disagree with that, but there's a vast difference in cost-effectiveness between, say, a Dark Elf Master and a Tomb Prince or a goblin big boss. It might not be possible to completely solve the problem in this edition, but you can certainly make things better than they are now for the less competitive hero choices.

innerwolf
20-02-2012, 08:36
I think some sort of "taunt" special rule which would allow well protected CC characters to tank in the classic, RPG sense would help them to add something different to armies.
Something like: every model in contact takes a leadership test on -X or is forced to attack the character.
Maybe it's an side-effect of too much WoW :p but I would like to get that feel in Warhammer games. It's only obvious if a hero is armoured to the teeth, he would try to protect more vulnerable warriors around him (maybe not in every Warhammer culture).

yabbadabba
20-02-2012, 17:02
How about making all Fighter Lords stubborn as standard.

Von Wibble
20-02-2012, 17:53
I disagree sulla,Fighty heroes have many perks people tend to overlook. The first being Magic weapons to deal with pesky ethereal things. In the last vampire book, I've have a ethereal vampire or spirit host tie up units that just couldn't do anything to it. They can bring things like no armor save attacks, muli-wounding weapons, or become one man shield walls like the unkillible dreadlord, to the ultimate doombull blender. The chaos lord suffers for not being fighty enough, when the sorcerer lord can fight as good as other combat lords, rockk a 3+ and 3++ fly, and cast gateway while holding a puppet. In other words he suffers for the sorcerer lord being complete filth.

So a lord beats a wizard because the magic attacks kill ethereal things but wizards have no magic....errr....wait a minute?!!

Should also add that wizards have ignore armour save attacks, and can turn units into several man shieldwalls. But they get to do their thing far more often. A combat lord kills 3 models per turn average. Thanks to stepping up, steadfast and bsb the Cr this generates and the return attacks potentially lost don't amount to much (but they did in previous editions which characters points costs have taken into account). A wizard lord meanwhile can safely expect 4-5 times that (or equivalent effects) in an average to poor magic phase, and is a potential game winner in a good one (whilst the chaos lord gets at best 9 kills- if he takes as much +A stuff as he can).

Meanwhile a chaos warrior unit that the lord is joining can expect a reliable 8-9 kills per combat round? Make that over 10 if its a Khornate unit. The +3 just isn't that big a boost.

And if you think chaos lord have it bad, lets look at a high elf noble leading swordmasters. The difference in kills is a mere +1 (rounding up!) and this costs me nearly 100 points as an upgrade.


sulla and Don Zeko both present arguments that I can generally agree with.

Changing core rules (especially unit caps) is a great idea. Unit caps ensure deathstars can't exist, they act as another balancing tool for army choices (you can make troops really good for their points cost but give a low unit cap to compensate or vice versa), they make steadfast rarer but still exist - thus helping out wood elves and brets who struggle against such things. They slao ensure the effects of stepping up are lowered a bit, meaning that teh combat lords extra attacks become more meaningful.

However, I like the idea of all combat characters generally having a points decrease and gaining an interesting buff. Why not both?

This obviously only works in theory as it requires core rule changes - but if you were to be fair to ogre fighty characters (particularly the bruiser) you'd need to apply it to previous army books anyway, which still means rules changes we won't see for years.

The thing I'd give in favour of core rules changes over army book changes is that when a core system changes, it makes it more likely that some of the army changes are put out of balance.

yabbadabba
20-02-2012, 18:09
GW is not going to place unit caps on anything other than the most abusive units aka Trollslayers and Flagellants aka unbreakable units.

Von Wibble
20-02-2012, 19:01
GW is not going to place unit caps on anything other than the most abusive units aka Trollslayers and Flagellants aka unbreakable units.

Probably true since it only restricts how many they can sell. But from a rules perspective it still makes sense.

Ravening Wh0re
21-02-2012, 01:43
Honestly, they REALLY need to be rid of that damned Banner of Discipline. Or at the very least disallow characters from joining a unit with it.

If they lowered the LD of all rank and file units (warriors, knights, chosen etc) and also lower the wizards, then the Lord would be a choice to be considered.
The structure would follow most other armies too, where the fighter Hero gives +1 LD and the Lord +2 LD.

Unpopular, I know, but it would give the player a stark choice

Hrogoff the Destructor
21-02-2012, 02:11
Honestly, they REALLY need to be rid of that damned Banner of Discipline. Or at the very least disallow characters from joining a unit with it.

If they lowered the LD of all rank and file units (warriors, knights, chosen etc) and also lower the wizards, then the Lord would be a choice to be considered.
The structure would follow most other armies too, where the fighter Hero gives +1 LD and the Lord +2 LD.

Unpopular, I know, but it would give the player a stark choice

Actually I think the idea is brilliant. If GW applied that to all army's from hereon out I would totally be up for it. It would also be important for characters like Teclis to NOT get leadership 10.

Doommasters
21-02-2012, 03:33
They need to make chaos lords more like generals with unique combat tricks as has been stated multiple times. At the same time as much as I hate to admit it but Sorc lords are simply too good with everything they have access to, thus trying to make combat lords equal would simply add more imbalance to the game.

I like the idea of combat lords being character and monster killers, the fluff where they seek out the biggest and best opponents for the glory of chaos is nice and could be expanded on without being brocken but they need a rules change so you dont get stuck fighting champions every game. The ideas about providing additional tactical benefits are also nice; being able to deploy a unit after the deployment phase is complete, coffering a beefed up mark to a unit and providing Ld10 along with a larger inspiring presence all seem good but not brocken. Another idea I like is having unit options that are only available when taking a combat lord; Unlock Chosen knights or allow a single unit of Chaos Knights to count towards core or whatever.

Also I think it is clear that come the new book Chaos Sorcs will lose a bunch of brocken magic items which will help but at the same time will not change to dominace of magic and the need for Lvl4's.


I think most people understand that simply having a expensive combat lord that is hard to kill and only kills a couple of guys a turn simply does not cut it in 8th addition against steadfast, natural 6's and magic. Yes he may not be killed but he isnt adding much else to your army as a whole, even if brocken in most peoples eyes the unkillable dreadlord has a clear purpose.

Doommasters
21-02-2012, 03:39
Honestly, they REALLY need to be rid of that damned Banner of Discipline. Or at the very least disallow characters from joining a unit with it.

If they lowered the LD of all rank and file units (warriors, knights, chosen etc) and also lower the wizards, then the Lord would be a choice to be considered.
The structure would follow most other armies too, where the fighter Hero gives +1 LD and the Lord +2 LD.

Unpopular, I know, but it would give the player a stark choice

I honsetly think there are more creative ways to make the combat lord more viable than simply making regular troops worse of in the LD department. There is no doubt combat lords should have a LD advantage but I think there have been plenty of good ideas to go along with leadership rather than nerfing troops to compensate combat lords.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-02-2012, 09:28
Unpopular, I know, but it would give the player a stark choice

Sure, but does it add to the fun of the game? That's the other thing to consider. I really should want to use said characters, not be forced to do it because otherwise my army is going to suck. So just reducing leadership and then holding up combat heroes and lords as the "fix" to that is not going to make them a more popular choice. It might make them a slightly more necessary choice they they are not going to be any more interesting to use. The whole problem is that Wizards and other characters like Warrior Priests does more than just being a trooper model with a better statline. As such they usually end up as being more interesting to use or at least have different ways of interacting with the rest of the army. That's the kind of thing that we should have more of. All characters should be special, add something to the army and be someone you want to take. A slightly better statline just isn't that special.

Dominatrix
21-02-2012, 09:51
I am not going to make any more suggestions as I believe previous posters have covered pretty much everything I could think of. Chaos Lords need something to make them more appealing for sure. My preference would be (as far as new abilities are concerned) to make them provide something like the aura of daemon heralds to the unit they join, or perhaps even more widespread like to all the units with the same mark as theirs. Beyond that, I think people should also realize that lvl 4 mages will always remain a better choice no matter what. Magic is too good in this edition to pass a lvl 4 up. And to be honest I don't think this a a bad thing that needs to be fixed. Every game edition has some characteristics that make some choices a lot more desirable than others no matter what. I remember for example in older editions where the only magic I saw in most lists was a lvl 1 wizard carrying 2 dispel scrolls. Was that better? No way. This is just how the game works, giving it a different flavor each edition.

Ravening Wh0re
21-02-2012, 12:50
It's hardly game-breaking to lower their Ld. GW have consciously capped the Lord's Ld at 9 so as to give the army some kind of 'weakness'.

I think Warriors of Chaos should be susceptible to panic although half of the marked warriors aren't.

With a wizard Lord or a fighter Hero as general, they still have a respectable Ld8 rerollable (with BSB). And if beaten in combat, well, they are losers are are not worthy of the gods

Ravening Wh0re
21-02-2012, 12:51
Double Post

Havock
21-02-2012, 17:37
Except that nerfing A to fix B is -unless A is actually OP-, silly. It would be like making sorcerer lords 100 pts more expensive: it is a balance swing rather than a fix.

ShurikenSerpent
21-02-2012, 17:40
Make them stuibborn. Job done.

Would be interested in seeing suggestions for making Daemon Princes (for Daemons AND Warriors armies) a viable option, though! My suggestion - allow Daemon Princes 50 points worth of magic items in addition to gifts.

BigbyWolf
21-02-2012, 18:31
Make them stuibborn. Job done.

Would be interested in seeing suggestions for making Daemon Princes (for Daemons AND Warriors armies) a viable option, though! My suggestion - allow Daemon Princes 50 points worth of magic items in addition to gifts.

Nah, I think just having a better set of gifts should suffice.

sulla
21-02-2012, 19:39
GW is not going to place unit caps on anything other than the most abusive units aka Trollslayers and Flagellants aka unbreakable units.:D Some people would say that 100 goblin or skaven slave units are abusive... Some may say 40 chaos warriors/chosen with double shrines are abusive...

But, yes, it will be very interesting to see how abusive GW rate unbreakable and stubborn units in the upcoming armybooks.

The Low King
21-02-2012, 19:41
There is already a unit cap on trollslayers....most dwarf players seem to think it should be removed...

Lords should provide a major LD bonus to an army, killing them should severely hurt the army. If that requires lowering basic LD then so be it.

Ravening Wh0re
21-02-2012, 19:58
I don't like the fact that you NEED to give something a special rule just to make it competitive. I thought they were trying to move away from that mindset?

Honestly, what more do they need to do other than give killing power, and to confer a higher Ld? These Lords are highly customisable, can go toe-to-toe with just about any other model in the game and are extremely hard to kill.
You want that as well as him giving a buff to his unit?

Sexiest_hero
21-02-2012, 20:50
Again I say the Chaos lord isn't bad, Just a lil overcosted, but so are a lot of things in 7th books. The Tzzentch sorcerer lord is too good, that will change next book.

innerwolf
21-02-2012, 21:30
I don't like the fact that you NEED to give something a special rule just to make it competitive. I thought they were trying to move away from that mindset?

Honestly, what more do they need to do other than give killing power, and to confer a higher Ld? These Lords are highly customisable, can go toe-to-toe with just about any other model in the game and are extremely hard to kill.
You want that as well as him giving a buff to his unit?

Their extremely high WS and Ini are only useful when fighting other Lord choices. Excluding CC lord vs CC lord match-ups, they don't bring anything a handful of elite infantry (in this case chaos warriors) can't (except a single point of leadership, easily offset by the +1 ld banner+sorcerer lord trick).
People want a reason for choosing Chaos Lords(and CC Lords from other books) over the equivalent worth of troops, and their current stats without any special rule that gives them a slightly different role won't do it.

Doommasters
21-02-2012, 21:43
I don't like the fact that you NEED to give something a special rule just to make it competitive. I thought they were trying to move away from that mindset?

Honestly, what more do they need to do other than give killing power, and to confer a higher Ld? These Lords are highly customisable, can go toe-to-toe with just about any other model in the game and are extremely hard to kill.
You want that as well as him giving a buff to his unit?

To put it simply yes we do, and the same goes for other armies where combat lords are second rate. This is not just a chaos thing!

Ravening Wh0re
21-02-2012, 23:18
Tbh, I don't think they will do much else to the Lord when the new army book comes out. I believe GW thinks he is fine as is. At least the models are cool :)

bluemage
21-02-2012, 23:43
I don't think combat lords need much beyond a cost reduction. And if all it takes for you to want to run a chaos lord is their being stubborn, just take the crown of command and be done with it.

Texhnolyze
22-02-2012, 10:18
To put it simply yes we do, and the same goes for other armies where combat lords are second rate. This is not just a chaos thing!


To be honest, it seams that nothing can be done untill a new core rule book is released. Since the problem with Combat lords are in the main rules, and not with the army books.

Even vampires suffers from this, a lot of people argue that the necromancer lord is better, and it is not worth paying close to 500 pts for a kited vampire lord(that might still die to a hord of great weapons), when you can have a lv 4 necromancer at around 200 sitting in a bunker somewhere.

vcassano
22-02-2012, 11:28
To be fair in the UK many of the big competitive WoC players are using Chaos Lords. I'd prefer a simple points drop PLUS Ld10 and then they'd offer a significant benefit to the army.

Texhnolyze
22-02-2012, 14:48
Why should a Chaos lord have LD 10 ? Ld 9 is appropriate, they are fighters not leaders. Chaos has never been organized, and their lords are not that great leaders. If anything the Sorc Lord should loose one point of LD to make the difference between the Chaos lord and the Sorcerer lord bigger, the biggest problem lies with the chaos lords points, and the the sorc lords stats, and not with the chaos lords stats, they are great..

Chaos units are elite fighters, but they are not disciplined enough.

Havock
22-02-2012, 16:01
The Sorcerer Lord has Leadership 8, dropping this would mean his Ld is less than that of warriors.

The Low King
22-02-2012, 16:06
So? why would a shadowy sociopath who doesnt fight and is very odd (plus is feared slightly by ordinary warriors) have good leadership?

Havock
22-02-2012, 16:20
...So we make Dark Elf characters Ld7 too?

pippin_nl
22-02-2012, 17:54
...So we make Dark Elf characters Ld7 too?

Only assassins, as they are shadowy as well...:p Wizards in every army have leadership higher or equal to the common troops.

Havock
22-02-2012, 18:15
But they are double sociopaths, so there :p

Really people, nerfing A does not fix B: the problem isn't that sorcerer lord's are too good, it's that they are the only choice worth taking because
1- chaos lords are overpriced
and 2- Daemon Princes suck. As in absolutely horribad Lord choice outside of a Storm of Magic game.

The Low King
22-02-2012, 18:52
The problem is that the Bonus' that Lords are supposed to have over other characters (Leadership) can be got around. The solution to that paticular aspect therefore is to either increase Lord leadership or decrease wizard leadership. (note, im using Lord= Combat Lord and Wizard=wizard Lord).

The other reason people take Wizards over Lords is that magic is so good. If i could afford to not take a runelord (or two runesmiths) in my games i would take a Dwarf Lord every time. Unfortunatly i cant because i have to take something to counter magic. With my lizardmen i like taking a Carnosaur mounted Old Blood...but it means i also take 2 skink priests with dispelling items to back him up.

Doommasters
22-02-2012, 19:36
So? why would a shadowy sociopath who doesnt fight and is very odd (plus is feared slightly by ordinary warriors) have good leadership?

Becuase as you say they fear him and if the warriors do not do his bidding they shall be burned alive or something to that effect, since not mnay units are equal to warriors I would not be taking my chances running from a lord of chaos.....death by sword seems like a better alternative.

Doommasters
22-02-2012, 19:40
The problem is that the Bonus' that Lords are supposed to have over other characters (Leadership) can be got around. The solution to that paticular aspect therefore is to either increase Lord leadership or decrease wizard leadership. (note, im using Lord= Combat Lord and Wizard=wizard Lord).

The other reason people take Wizards over Lords is that magic is so good. If i could afford to not take a runelord (or two runesmiths) in my games i would take a Dwarf Lord every time. Unfortunatly i cant because i have to take something to counter magic. With my lizardmen i like taking a Carnosaur mounted Old Blood...but it means i also take 2 skink priests with dispelling items to back him up.

This is not true and has been explained multiple times in this thread; Magic yes is probably the number one reason but other factors including steadfast, stepping up, natural 6 rolls and maximum armor saves of 1 all have added to chaos lords becoming a very crappy choice compared to spending those points on hard hitting troops ot tricking out a Sorc Lord.

Leadership is just the go to chractersitic now to solve all the problems, nerf A to buff B....sometimes works but it is pretty lame and unimaginative TBH. Man it would be boring if all they did was drop Wizards LD by 1 and increase chaos lords leadership to bandaid it! This pretty much forces you to to take a +1LD banner becuase the Sorc is still going to be a better choice.

New WoC with the LD Nerf;

Lvl4 Sorc tricked out just the same (what a surprise)
Exhalted BSB +1ld Banner

Drop Warriors LD;
Lvl 4
Exhalted BSB +1LD -Probably in your chosen unit
Exhalted BSB in a warrior Unit
Warriors without a Character Marked Slannesh, extra rank for Steadfast.

Congratulations you just created WoC version of the OK SM, real genius and unless they drop the chaos lord points enough so you can fit both with items into a 2500pt game!

Chaos Lord
- Provides beefed up mark to his unit
- Increased range for inspiring presence
- Special Challenge rules
- LD10
- Access to powerful items and chaos gifts

Now I would consider taking him and leaving the lvl4 at home. Daemon Prince should be similar to a Vampire Lord but more expensive and slightly tougher, can be both a caster and a combat killing machine but with a points tag to match i.e. fully tricked out 600pts!

Havock
22-02-2012, 20:25
The problem is that the Bonus' that Lords are supposed to have over other characters (Leadership) can be got around. The solution to that paticular aspect therefore is to either increase Lord leadership or decrease wizard leadership. (note, im using Lord= Combat Lord and Wizard=wizard Lord).

Yes, but to lower the leadership of a defacto chaos warrior with magical talent/ability to something below that of a normal warrior is just... Silly.

Ravening Wh0re
22-02-2012, 21:11
Chaos Lord
- Provides beefed up mark to his unit
- Increased range for inspiring presence
- Special Challenge rules
- LD10
- Access to powerful items and chaos gifts

Take note, peoples: THIS is how codex creep works.

Ld 10, stubborn rerollable? On the greatest fighters in the Old World? With a meatgrinder Lord with access to amazing armours and weapons?

All the stories have Chaos Warriors chew a path of destruction through empires until a last ditch defiant effort manages to break/beat the Lords unit (ie the spine). Chaos is designed to beat face but also run away IF beaten. They just arent meant to stick around.

It's always a problem with Chaos players. They think the Gods should bless them with everything and that naturally makes them the best at everything.

@Havock:
that wouldn't be a problem if Warriors Ld were lowered by 1 too ;)

Eg. Both include BSB
Wizard general means a Ld7 rerollable for panic (which Slaanesh and Khorne will ignore)
Lord general means a Ld9 rerollable for panic

This would mean there are tangible benefits for taking a Lord
And sometimes if everyone is taking something you have to discourage it a little. OR how about a points INCREASE for the wizard?

blake
22-02-2012, 21:45
Chaos Lords will never be LD 10 outside of Archon just like Empire Generals won't be LD outside of the Emperor. As goofy and bonkers as you may think your Lord to be he is at the end of the day only human.

I personally don't think there should be a +1 leadership banner period for anyone.

All rambling aside if magic is important to you like it is for so many of us you will take a sorcerer lord. I have seen some people have some pretty good successes with chaos lords recently so I am more curious as to what exactly are some people expecting? I remember MoK Chaos Lords on hippogriffs wiping out entire units back in 5th so I am not just super excited to see that return.

The easiest way to fix Chaos characters in general at least IMHO is to give them access to a better chaos gift section that is a little more customizable based on which deity you chose and keep it separate from magic items. So if you want to go nuts you can go nuts but he isn't gonna be cheap.


I think all of this eventually boils down to the same thing that affects Elite Infantry (Of whomever) and most combat characters is that as a whole cheap infantry almost always getting to make return attacks makes your super whatever feel less effective

Doommasters
22-02-2012, 23:33
Take note, peoples: THIS is how codex creep works.

Ld 10, stubborn rerollable? On the greatest fighters in the Old World? With a meatgrinder Lord with access to amazing armours and weapons?

All the stories have Chaos Warriors chew a path of destruction through empires until a last ditch defiant effort manages to break/beat the Lords unit (ie the spine). Chaos is designed to beat face but also run away IF beaten. They just arent meant to stick around.

It's always a problem with Chaos players. They think the Gods should bless them with everything and that naturally makes them the best at everything.

@Havock:
that wouldn't be a problem if Warriors Ld were lowered by 1 too ;)

Eg. Both include BSB
Wizard general means a Ld7 rerollable for panic (which Slaanesh and Khorne will ignore)
Lord general means a Ld9 rerollable for panic

This would mean there are tangible benefits for taking a Lord
And sometimes if everyone is taking something you have to discourage it a little. OR how about a points INCREASE for the wizard?


I can accept that Ld 10 might be two high, but claiming that the rest is power creep is little unfair given what Chaos Lords have lost in 8th edition I should not have to re post everything that has changed and how that has impacted combat lords.

In 7th a chaos lord could kill half a rank and not get hit back amongst other things read the last five pages. Now you have to deal with steadfast, stepping up, natural 6 hits and befed up magic lores along with new magic system. As far as I am concerned Chaos Lords need more than a points drop to bring them up to speed in 8th edition and I don't ven play WoC as my main army. I mean the OK is a prime example where thinking some xtra Ld would be enough ot justify a Tyrant...well guess what the SM is 100% better points wise.

What happens when its Lizardmens Turn? Drop the points of Old on Carny and she will be right, ******** everyone will still take the Slann.........unless they change the main rule book which they won't for a long long time simply subtracting leadership and shaving some ponits is going to either have no impact or force players into even less choice as they are froed to take a ld banner with a lvl4, they have tried this it fails see OK. Internal balance is important and it can't be fixed in this case with some LD nerfs and a points reduction unless you take it to the extreme which will kill the army!

What is so brocken about a chaos Lord having a unit passive and some cool challenge rules that fits the fluff? Becuase honestly I would rather have his 7th edition rules back and keep him exactly the same than what you are suggesting.

The Low King
23-02-2012, 00:28
I currently take an Old blood on a carny in my lizardmen list....

They did it right with TKs, VCs and O&G. In All three Combat Lords are a lot more popular...

Ravening Wh0re
23-02-2012, 01:10
Well, to start with, the Lord IS T5, and come standard with a comparatively good armour save. His weapon skill is high enough to guarantee no one hits him on better than a 4+ (and in many cases 5+), and you tend to pop a ward save on him and he is a tough nut to crack.

I think some think he should be indestructable or something.

The biggest problem in this edition is the availability of that damned Ld Banner. Once it's gone there will be a bigger disparity between wizards and fighters.

Tyrants cannot have the same armour protection a Chaos Lord has.
Also Lizardmen are a unique case since the cold-blooded rule helps immensely with any kind of Ld test. Ld 8 or 9 (on 3d6) rerollable is plenty.

There are plenty of Lords on battlefields; you see Vampires, Orcs Warbosses, Tomb Kings, Beastlords, Dwarf Lords, Even Skaven Warlords. The only absence I've noticed are from Elven armies mainly.

Doommasters
23-02-2012, 01:14
I currently take an Old blood on a carny in my lizardmen list....

They did it right with TKs, VCs and O&G. In All three Combat Lords are a lot more popular...

Of course people will take it, but point for point opportunity cost wise a Slann is so much better it isn't even funny.

Doommasters
23-02-2012, 01:21
Well, to start with, the Lord IS T5, and come standard with a comparatively good armour save. His weapon skill is high enough to guarantee no one hits him on better than a 4+ (and in many cases 5+), and you tend to pop a ward save on him and he is a tough nut to crack.

I think some think he should be indestructable or something.

The biggest problem in this edition is the availability of that damned Ld Banner. Once it's gone there will be a bigger disparity between wizards and fighters.

Tyrants cannot have the same armour protection a Chaos Lord has.
Also Lizardmen are a unique case since the cold-blooded rule helps immensely with any kind of Ld test. Ld 8 or 9 (on 3d6) rerollable is plenty.

There are plenty of Lords on battlefields; you see Vampires, Orcs Warbosses, Tomb Kings, Beastlords, Dwarf Lords, Even Skaven Warlords. The only absence I've noticed are from Elven armies mainly.

Tyrants are also Ogres and get all the benefits that come with that. Three of the armies have new books; Vamps you can have caster and combat on the sale lord or a cheap lvl4, TK they give passive bonuses to the unit so they boost combat, Orcs are cheap so don't stop you taking a lvl4 so you don't have to pick one or the other, Beastlords genarly the bsb and you can still have a lvl4 in most games again you dont have to choose one or the other, skaven charcters are cheap same thing can have casters and combat lords in the same army. DE you can have dreadlord and lvl4, WoC you can't get a combat lord and level 4 into the same list and take equipment/use up a massive chunk of army points and be playing 3k.

I agree the LD banner is stupid and only serves to make Mages more godlike, but they will write more army books before that rewrite the rules for the main one and even then a chaos sorc is till much better even with -1LD.

I also think that if they fixed Daemon Princes to be the ultimate chaos Lord choice with magic and bone breacking combat power combined with leadership that will cost you fully kitted out around 600p this would satisfy some of the more combat orientated people.

Apart from the obvious problems discussed throughout this thread one of the big issues is that many other armies are capable of feilding both lord options in a 2.5k game, thus in many peoples eyes they don't compete against each other. The problem is that WoC you have to pay for the godlike statline which means you quickly get to the pint where it is one or the other and Chaos Lords just don't cut it point for point versus Sorc.

VC have the perfect setup in theory;

1) lvl4
2) Combat Only Vampire Lord
3) Combat only Vampire Lord + barebones lvl4 in the same game
4) Combat and Magic monster Vampire lord

All the above can be done and you can a great selection of equipment and powers even with the lvl4 and combat lord in the same list, you might not be able to make them out at 2.4k but you can get a nice setup all the same.

Havock
23-02-2012, 01:25
@Havock:
that wouldn't be a problem if Warriors Ld were lowered by 1 too ;)


I hope you are not serious in this...

Well, that would be bad, expect more frenzied stuff with warhound screens in front of them, really. It would just shift the focus, it would not adress the balance, it would just be a silly, unjustified nerf. Leadership is not just discipline, it also encompasses confidence. I think a chaos warrior should be a bit less likely to be intimidated by a shambling skeleton than Bumarse McNobody the state trooper. 7 is -bad- for a low model elite troop. Really bad.

Also: the Lord doesn't need to be unkillable, but right now he is somewhat handicapped by the 'must challenge' rule, the common problem for all combat characters is step up etc. I think this could be easily mitigated by adding the following rule to characters in combat:
Supporting attacks can only target the unit as a whole, not individual models in the unit.

That way, a lone character can still get swamped, but a character in a unit won't because his covering his **** (actively or by simply standing in the way); you can't block supporting attacks with 'smart' character positioning in a unit but he will be a bit safer.

Perhaps give challenges another benefit in that if you slay your foe and you are still alive, your unit is stubborn for that round. That way there is some incentive to actually take combat heroes along, because they can give you some respite against an otherwise superior foe.

ie. not just for chaos lords but a general rule.

Ravening Wh0re
23-02-2012, 01:35
As confident as an angry bray herd? As confident as orcs on a waaagh, spoiling for a fight? Errant Knight sure are confident.

Look, I don't have any easy solutions for the army but I don't think giving buffs to an already amazing unit or boosting the Lord's Ld is the answer here.

Anyways, I hear tell there's a new book in the works, so let's wait and see what they do, eh?

Skarsgard
23-02-2012, 02:11
Well, to start with, the Lord IS T5, and come standard with a comparatively good armour save. His weapon skill is high enough to guarantee no one hits him on better than a 4+ (and in many cases 5+), and you tend to pop a ward save on him and he is a tough nut to crack.

I think some think he should be indestructable or something.

The biggest problem in this edition is the availability of that damned Ld Banner. Once it's gone there will be a bigger disparity between wizards and fighters.

Tyrants cannot have the same armour protection a Chaos Lord has.
Also Lizardmen are a unique case since the cold-blooded rule helps immensely with any kind of Ld test. Ld 8 or 9 (on 3d6) rerollable is plenty.

There are plenty of Lords on battlefields; you see Vampires, Orcs Warbosses, Tomb Kings, Beastlords, Dwarf Lords, Even Skaven Warlords. The only absence I've noticed are from Elven armies mainly.


I don't think the survivability of the Lord is an issue. Challenge him out of the game and focus on his unit and win by combat res. When he runs then run him down like the dog he is and all the toughness, armour saves and ward saves count for diddly.

I agree that the Lord(s) need to make more of an impact in combat, not sure how to achieve this in the current ruleset.

How about this for an idea, any models slain by the Lord(s) cannot be stepped up on as the rest of the guys cower in fear from the potency of the Lord(s).

Doommasters
23-02-2012, 02:11
As confident as an angry bray herd? As confident as orcs on a waaagh, spoiling for a fight? Errant Knight sure are confident.

Look, I don't have any easy solutions for the army but I don't think giving buffs to an already amazing unit or boosting the Lord's Ld is the answer here.

Anyways, I hear tell there's a new book in the works, so let's wait and see what they do, eh?

Well the way I see it currently Chaos Combat Lords are not a great choice, they have a nice statline and have access to nice equipment but they have no real purpose or speciality in 8th edition outside of being a defensive rock. Letting a chaos lord coffer his mark to a unit is hardly a game breaking buff since you can get access to the mark anyway, and if it was a little more powerful you have to consider you don't have a lvl4 to buff units to kingdom come or the potential destroy wreak any unit turn after turn.

Ravening Wh0re
23-02-2012, 03:14
Dunno about you guys, but I don't win combats against Warriors on a regular basis. Once they reach my line my battleline starts to crumble. Warrior don't lose all that often in combat, their damage output is so high.
I tend to hope to hold and maybe flank them.

I use Dark Elves, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts and Beastmen and all take horrendous casualties.

A buffing Lord would encourage massive units to more efficiently utilise the bonus. No, I think marks will be on a per-model basis in the future.

Personally, I don't see them doing all that much differently with him, apart from perhaps a *slight* points drop. They really haven't done much on the newest Lords in the recent books.
I reiterate that things will be better when the Discipline Banner is gone. That will likely be in 2-3 years when a new edition comes out. (also when magic may be toned down a tad)
There's no point creeping up the power just because he's not used NOW. The new Chaos book, if stable, could stick around for 2 generations yet.

trikk86
23-02-2012, 10:54
Dunno about you guys, but I don't win combats against Warriors on a regular basis. Once they reach my line my battleline starts to crumble. Warrior don't lose all that often in combat, their damage output is so high.
I tend to hope to hold and maybe flank them.

Exactly, then why the hell would we need a Lord in a unit, lets get a lvl4 that will kill all the cheap stuff - spirit hosts, harpies, furies etc.

theunwantedbeing
23-02-2012, 12:14
How about this for an idea, any models slain by the Lord(s) cannot be stepped up on as the rest of the guys cower in fear from the potency of the Lord(s).

How about this instead
Anytime he slays an opponent in close combat, he gets an eye of the gods roll.

It is somewhat bizarre that Chaos knights cause fear through reputation but he doesn't.
Chosen get an eye of the gods roll initially but a Chaos lord of all people doesn't.

A re-do of the chaos book would likely see these discrepancies disappear.

Havock
23-02-2012, 12:49
As confident as an angry bray herd? As confident as orcs on a waaagh, spoiling for a fight? Errant Knight sure are confident.


Considering how much they cost compared to those choices: yeah.

And my other point?

Maltor
23-02-2012, 15:16
As a way to make Eye of the Gods better. You get 1 roll for killing a unit champion in a challenge and roll twice choose one if you kill a character or monster.

Havock
23-02-2012, 16:09
It wouldn't make it better, it would just ensure nobody ever accepts a challenge against any combat-kitted chaos character.

The bearded one
23-02-2012, 16:25
The problem the chaos lord has is not limited to the chaos lord specifically. He is a combat character, and most expensive combat characters have trouble justifying their cost.

I could take a tanked out dwarf lord who does a bit of damage and is nigh-unkillable, but, just like the chaos lord, he can be run down if his unit loses, and probably just like the chaos lord you can get a lot more damage output by spending the points you used for the lord on a unit instead. I could use my 300pts tank dwarf lord, or I could get 25 hammerers.



It's just a thing that's part of 8th. Characters don't win combat by themselves anymore. The only reasonable thing would be to make the combat character more worthwhile due to a good inspiring presence, but the ld banner blows that away, which is a shame. I wrote a beastmen list for the future, and I wanted a scary doombull for combat. He's quite insane in damage potential, but only ld8 and the great bray shaman with the standard of discipline does a better job as general.

Gradek
23-02-2012, 16:48
I think that besides a point reduction (which is needed even for the current statline), there is not much you can do to make a combat lord an equal choice to a sorcerer lord. What is needed from a basic rules perspective is some tactical type bonus that lord would give that wizard lords would not (maybe a bonus deployment move or the ability to reroll a charge (or prevent a failed charge) for the unit the lord is with), but even that would pose problems for chaos, as some armies have easy access to lord characters, while others have to make a choice (based on points).

The Low King
23-02-2012, 18:50
How about that when a Lords unit flees the Lord remains in combat?

Von Wibble
23-02-2012, 19:07
That's a nice idea for some armies (eg chaos, dwarfs) but maybe not so characterful for others (skaven, goblins)...

TheOneHawk
23-02-2012, 20:12
Chaos lord being unbreakable, but the unit he is with must still take the break tests would be kinda cool. Would lead to super defensive lords that could never die just being an unbreakable unkillable tarpit, though. Makes sense fluffwise, but would be easily abused.

Doommasters
23-02-2012, 23:23
Chaos lord being unbreakable, but the unit he is with must still take the break tests would be kinda cool. Would lead to super defensive lords that could never die just being an unbreakable unkillable tarpit, though. Makes sense fluffwise, but would be easily abused.

He will die as you are still wounded on a 6 and if tooled up to be defensive can only put out a few wounds a turn, anything with a few ranks won't be going anywhere but you could hold up a unit for along time. I am starting ot agree with Ravening about chaos lords being a little too buff if they give units passive bonuses outside of a free mark.

These would be avilable to; Exhalted Heroes, Chaos Lords and Daemonic Princes. Sorcs can only take the same marks as regulaer troops not the ones below.

MARKS ONLY FOR HEROES EXCL SORC
MoK: Fenzy and HKB
MoN: +1 Toughness, Immune to KB and Poison
MoS: ASF and Immune to Physcology
MoT: +2 Dispel and chanel dispel dice on 5+ (if taken on Daemon Prince with a magic level it is only +1 to dispel)

Chaos Gifts different based on Hero Type

Gift of Nurgle
Chaos Lord, Exhalted and Daemon Prince: units in base contact have ASL and -1 to hit
Sorc lord and Hero: Loremaster Nurgle, no restriction on how many times you can cast each spell from lore of Nurgle

Cloud of Pestilence: Breath Weapon 3d6 S3 poison attacks

Gift of Khorne
Chaos Lord, Exhalted and Daemon Prince: 5+ Ward and 4+ Ward in close combat. Heroic Challenge, if the charcter slays another character or monster in combat they may roll twice on the EotG table

Burning Sacrifice: Characters can sacrifce a model from a friendly unit within 6" and attempt to recover a single wound on a 5+ (once per combat phase)

Gift of Slannesh
Chaos Lord, Exhalted and Daemon Prince: Causes Terror and units in base contact have -2 Ld
Sorc: Loremaster Slannesh and each miscast suffered buy enemy wizards causes them to lose one leadership for the rest of the game (range 24").

Counterstrike: For every succesful wound taken in close combat, you may make an additional attack with no saves of any kind allowed.

Gift O Tezzentch
Chaos Lord, Exhalted and Daemon Prince: +1 to Ward save, +1 Wizard level
Sorc: Loremaster Tezzentch, +1 to Channel and you may attempt to cast one spell from a lore an emeny wizard knows in each of you magic phases

Infernal Blast: Bound spell lvl 3 with the snipe special rule, single S6 attack with no saves allowed that also removes a wizard level and gives it to the caster for every successful wound range 12".

Edit: Removed Immune to multiple wounds

The Low King
23-02-2012, 23:38
Tell you what, lets just increase all their stats to 10, then they will be worth taking.

Immune to multiple wounds is the worst offender...then you end up with something that is simply impossible to kill.

Valnir
23-02-2012, 23:49
He will die as you are still wounded on a 6 and if tooled up to be defensive can only put out a few wounds a turn, anything with a few ranks won't be going anywhere but you could hold up a unit for along time. I am starting ot agree with Ravening about chaos lords being a little too buff if they give units passive bonuses outside of a free mark.

These would be avilable to; Exhalted Heroes, Chaos Lords and Daemonic Princes. Sorcs can only take the same marks as regulaer troops not the ones below.

MoK: Fenzy and HKB
MoN: +1 Toughness, Immune to KB and Poison
MoS: ASF and Immune to Physcology
MoT: +2 Dispel and chanel dispel dice on 5+ (if taken on Daemon Prince with a magic level it is only +1 to dispel)

Gifts different based on Hero Type

Gift of Nurgle
Chaos Lord, Exhalted and Daemon Prince: units in base contact have ASL and -1 to hit
Sorc lord and Hero: Loremaster Nurgle, no restriction on how many times you can cast each spell from lore of Nurgle

Cloud of Pestilence: Breath Weapon 3d6 S3 poison attacks

Gift of Khorne
Chaos Lord, Exhalted and Daemon Prince: 5+ Ward and 4+ Ward in close combat. Heroic Challenge, if the charcter slays another character or monster in combat they may roll twice on the EotG table

Burning Sacrifice: Characters can sacrifce a model from a friendly unit within 6" and attempt to recover a single wound on a 5+ (once per combat phase)

Gift of Slannesh
Chaos Lord, Exhalted and Daemon Prince: Causes Terror and units in base contact have -2 Ld
Sorc: Loremaster Slannesh and each miscast suffered buy enemy wizards causes them to lose one leadership for the rest of the game (range 24").

Counterstrike: For every succesful wound taken in close combat, you may make an additional attack with no saves of any kind allowed.

Gift O Tezzentch
Chaos Lord, Exhalted and Daemon Prince: +1 to Ward save, +1 Wizard level
Sorc: Loremaster Tezzentch, +1 to Channel and you may attempt to cast one spell from a lore an emeny wizard knows in each of you magic phases

Infernal Blast: Bound spell lvl 3 with the snipe special rule, single S6 attack with no saves allowed that also removes a wizard level and gives it to the caster for every successful wound range 12".

Edit: Removed Immune to multiple wounds

You don`t think that those suggestions are over the top?! honestly just an adjustment to how challenges work would probably do it with a bit of a point drop.

dementian
23-02-2012, 23:53
You don`t think that those suggestions are over the top?! honestly just an adjustment to how challenges work would probably do it with a bit of a point drop.

QFT. I see a recurring theme of very overpowered suggestions in this thread.

Havock
24-02-2012, 01:26
Well I would love to see the return of the HoC Mark of Tzeentch for characters: Hero level fighters become a level 2 wizard, lords a level 4, lore of tzeentch should be like the old one: couple of buff spells, couple of damage spells (though less crappy than red/blue fire), treason should stay, it's been around for two editions already, it's a theme :p

Obviously, this mark would be expensive, I think the old book nailed it quite well with 70/140 pts, it catapults the already expensive chaos characters -even if they shave off 10 pts or so- through the price-tag roof. I'd still do it because this was one of the things that attracted me to chaos in the first place.

Sorcerers with MoT can take any lore from the rulebook (only good thing about the get you by list!)

Petey
24-02-2012, 07:10
First start by repairing the army book and bringing it in line with this edition. Next step, change the universal special rules slightly.

First Special Rule The Will of Chaos The army general is unbreakable (as is any unit he joins), and must issue challenges whenever possible. The army general can and must issue challenges to Large target unridden monsters if in close combat with them. This works the same way as a normal challenge, though the monster may refuse without penalty, if the chaos lord is unmounted on a large target monster himself.

Second Special Rule Eye of the Gods Same as current with the following chart

2 Turn into a spawn! Remove character, gain one spawn.
3-4 Hatred. If the model already has hatred, it gains instead eternal hatred
5-6 Regeneration 6+ or an existing regen is increased by one to a max of 3+
7 Laughter of dark gods, gain d3 rerolls to use on any roll to hit or to wound. Once used the reroll is gone, you may get multiple rerolls from this result
8-9 Frenzy. If the model already has frenzy, he gains instead devastating charge
10-11 Fear. If the model already causes fear, gain terror instead. If already causing terror, enemies within 6" subtract one from their leadership
12 Replace with Daemon Prince (stats adjusted accordingly, keeps magic items and powers etc)



Mark of Chaos Undecided *May reroll the Eye of the Gods table
Mark of Khorne *Frenzy
Mark of Nurgle *+1W, immune to Poison and killing blow, flammable
Mark of Slannesh *Immune to Fear, Terror, and Panic. Stupidity. Stubborn. (if the general, loses Stupidity and Stubborn)
Mark of Tzeench *May buy up to 3 wizard levels at 35pt/level. Starts the game w/ d3 rerolls

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-02-2012, 09:48
What is needed from a basic rules perspective is some tactical type bonus that lord would give that wizard lords would not (maybe a bonus deployment move or the ability to reroll a charge (or prevent a failed charge) for the unit the lord is with), but even that would pose problems for chaos, as some armies have easy access to lord characters, while others have to make a choice (based on points).

I don't think it should be a basic rule change. At least not in the way that it made all combat heroes/lords the same. The do need something to make them stand out and be a better choice, but just like wizards are not all the same the benefits of other kinds of heroes should be much more individual as well. Different armies and characters would need different things. What would be appropriate for a Chaos Lord and make him interesting to take might not be at all appropriate for a High Elf prince, etc.

A Tzeentch Lord might be able to have an illusionary double forcing you to guess who the real one is until they act. On the other hand an Empire General might have drilled his Halbardiers and Knights to work together flawlessly, the High Elf prince with his centuries of experience might be able to anticipate and disrupt enemy charges, etc.

yabbadabba
24-02-2012, 10:47
Still can't see what's wrong with Stubborn as standard.

Jack of Blades
24-02-2012, 11:09
Still can't see what's wrong with Stubborn as standard.

It's not really interesting nor does it help the chaos lord destroy stuff to make up for the investment and fluff. Why would I care that my chaos lord that can't do anything outside of combat doesn't run away as often if he loses at what he was built to win? it's him not destroying enough stuff that's the problem then. Stubborn chaos lords are like Teclis's magical sword, not a bad thing to have but doesn't fit what has it. Not saying he'd never lose combat but it wouldn't help him win it and you don't expect a unit led by a chaos lord to lose. Giving him stubborn and then something offensive would be fine but just a defensive upgrade would be counter-intuitive. Chaos lords don't get to where they are because they don't run when something beats them, they got there because they beat everything they face.

Dux
24-02-2012, 12:10
Well I would love to see the return of the HoC Mark of Tzeentch for characters: Hero level fighters become a level 2 wizard, lords a level 4, lore of tzeentch should be like the old one: couple of buff spells, couple of damage spells (though less crappy than red/blue fire), treason should stay, it's been around for two editions already, it's a theme :p

Obviously, this mark would be expensive, I think the old book nailed it quite well with 70/140 pts, it catapults the already expensive chaos characters -even if they shave off 10 pts or so- through the price-tag roof. I'd still do it because this was one of the things that attracted me to chaos in the first place.

Sorcerers with MoT can take any lore from the rulebook (only good thing about the get you by list!)

SOOOOO signed!
That is why I started my warriors. I was able to field fighty mages, like Vamps still can, but they were expensive as hell. I believe a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch was 350 points base.
Normal sorcerers couldn't have MoT. So if you wanted to take the lore which was really good (imo) you had to take the expensive guy.
I wouldn't mind paying the points for that guy if he is worth it.


I don't know how I would change the Lord to make him worth taking. But a few things come to mind:

If the "has to challenge and accept" rule stays it should be changed:
He doesn't have to accept if challenged by a unit champion. They are not worth his attention.

He causes fear. Knights do but a Chaos Lord does not. WTF GW?

Gifts that do something in h2h. Red Thirst for a Lord of Khorne: why not?

Duke_of_Krondor
24-02-2012, 15:04
Gradek mentioned something good on page 7.

Ultimately the issue comes down to the role of the general....

Points to note (mechanically):

- The magic phase is a phase of decisions (committing dice, choosing spells, playing odds). It's a new game each phase as items/rolling have a huge say on your available resources. Big spells (unit killers) aside, there's the scope for a lot of game affecting decisions as you alter the odds on combats, tie up/weaken units and balance risk.

- The general has a passive bonus that, mainly, comes into effect in the movement phase (when you get to position your bubbles)

- Wizards are, generally, accepted to be more points efficient in 8th edition than non-wizard lords.

Points to note (thematically - not sure if I made this word up but I mean 'fluff'):

- A general directs to army by issuing orders to his underlings (whether pre-battle plans or via messages in battle)

- Wizards spending time blowing things(or themselves) up don't really have time to worry about this

Now, from a purely hypothetical 'next edition' stand, I'd say that the army general has certain abilities. He rolls 2d6 at the very start of a turn (pre-charge) and gains 'action points' equal to the roll. These points can be used to perform certain actions, each with an appropriate cost (extend his inspiring presence by 6", make a unit immune to panic, allow a unit to reroll failed charges, inspire troops to fight/shoot better, allow a reform on a unit, etc) but by making that initial check the character becomes too busy to weave the winds of magic. The character either cannot cast in that turn or can use no more than their wizard level in power dice (I prefer the first). You can include an 'orders recieved' roll (like IG in 40k) which is a ld test reduced by 1 for every 6" the unit is away from the generals basic inspiring presence and -1 for each flank the unit is engaged on. It also means that units within the general's IP use his Ld, representing his direct control. This means that characters in units (combat heroes tend to have better Ld than RnF so it provides a new use for them as they help 'interpret and enact' the orders).

It means that people taking wizard lords lose out on a wide reaching game, just as combat lords do. The issue with this is that it then 'punishes' wizard lords..this could be solved by making the downside to issuing orders be limiting casting dice to wizard levels.

This is a 'beer mat' idea designed in 5 mins over my lunchbreak so would require a shift in gameplay and a new edition (or white dwarf 'expansion'). Hope it provokes thought more than ire.

OT: Chaos lords are fine when compared to the relative combat potential of their contemporaries. the ability to generate 4/5 points of combat res from beating a unit champion down should not be under-rated...that may allow you to win the combat and chase the hiding wizard down!

Scammel
24-02-2012, 15:14
Chaos Lords in and of themselves are fine. Their stats and abilities pretty much perfectly reflect their capabilities in the background and complaints that they can't bat away Vampires, Oldbloods and Tyrants with a flick of the wrist are silly to say the least considering that these other Lords are equally potent in the background. He could perhaps do with a slight points drop, but I belive the issues here are more to do with weaknesses of the core rules (in addition to the Standard of Discipline) than any fault with the Lord himself.

yabbadabba
24-02-2012, 15:43
I feel that just focussing on an offensive, point for point focus is counter productive for Lords; its a similar mentality to looking at Wizards.

I just played a game where my opponent's shaman obliterated a big uns unit with a miscast. "Offensively" the shaman achieved nothing for the whole game, apart from helping me. "Defensively", he managed to prevent several of my spells going off which would have had a major impact on the game. In fact that defensive magic effort helped contribute to my defeat as it prevented strategies I wanted to emplace to offset my poor dice rolling.

I see stubborn as offensive/defensive. Not only does it prevent me from runing away, but in my best long term offensive unit, means that I am there causing more damage, turn on turn. As we now have to obliterate units, this is a good thing. Many of the issues facing a combat Lord is also faced my wizards et al, and the wizard is harder done by because they cannot fight/defend their way out of a wet paper bag. Outside of the magic phase, wizards are on the whole, useless. Combat Lords can contribute far more outside of the combat phase. The added bonus for having Stubborn is you can Death Star with some frightening results, or, you can place your Combat Lord in a flanking force can be magnified safe in the knowledge its going to take a lot to chase that unit off. Also, we talk about RnF wound causing being as effective in terms of points as Lords - yet we forget that Lords are far more effective and, every casualty caused by a Lord is the equivalent of a rank bonus removed with much less chance of that being reciprocated.

Now this is all generic; I have not got my Chaos book to hand, and my current gaming group have not had Chaos since I dropped it in 7th. Chaos Combat Lords have always been difficult - either too powerful or out valued by Wizards. I think the only way to solve that is "soft", army buffs rather than direct damage or we end up with Chaos Combat Lords being too powerful again.

Btw, as an appendix to my points, GW has never had a good relationship between fluff and rules, so we kind of have to take them seperately and not conflate the two too much.

yabbadabba
24-02-2012, 15:44
++duplicate post, please delete++

innerwolf
24-02-2012, 18:36
Also, we talk about RnF wound causing being as effective in terms of points as Lords - yet we forget that Lords are far more effective and, every casualty caused by a Lord is the equivalent of a rank bonus removed with much less chance of that being reciprocated.

Do you really think Lords are more effective?
Take that scenario: You have a 18 halberd armed Chaos Warriors unit, and you can add a bare-bones Chaos Lord or 12 more warriors (still cheaper).
The Chaos Lord adds 2,31 wounds against hand weapon+shield 3/3/3 bog infantry, and you must subtract the damage a first rank chaos warrior would have done.
The Chaos warriors turn the previous unit into a horde, adding at least 6 more third rank attacks, which generate 2,77 additional wounds.

So you aren't only generating more CR for less points, you also get a lot more wounds the enemy must inflict before the unit is destroyed.

If the Chaos Lord can't do the only thing he is worth for (killing) better than his equivalent points of warriors, why would you pay for him?

Sexiest_hero
24-02-2012, 19:00
He can tie up my Doombull, who would eat the warriors for lunch. Vampire lords can eat them as well as orc bosses and ogre tyrants. warriors are tough as nails, but there are those who can and will smoke them in battle.

yabbadabba
24-02-2012, 20:28
For me you have only used the same argument there - killing. The Lord is for more than that.

Duke Ramulots
24-02-2012, 20:36
Killing and Ld is what they are supposed to do and they do it well.

innerwolf
24-02-2012, 20:42
For me you have only used the same argument there - killing. The Lord is for more than that.

First, I countered your point about them being more effective than infantry. If not in killing power, what are they more effective at?

What are they for apart from killing, leadership and giving stubborn through a magic item?

@Duke Ramulots: They are supposed to do that, but it's both ineffective and boring. Ineffective because usually the same points of rank and file kill the same or more, and boring because they bring nothing you can't already find all across the army lists.

A Tomb King without MWBD is just a bunch of high strength attacks thrown into your skeletons. A Tomb King with MWBD enhances the unit he is in making it better at both offense and defense. That's what all CC Lords should do IMO

Petey
24-02-2012, 21:36
First, I countered your point about them being more effective than infantry. If not in killing power, what are they more effective at?

What are they for apart from killing, leadership and giving stubborn through a magic item?

A Tomb King without MWBD is just a bunch of high strength attacks thrown into your skeletons. A Tomb King with MWBD enhances the unit he is in making it better at both offense and defense. That's what all CC Lords should do IMO

They are effective at killing heavy hitters that your troops might not be able to hurt. They also buff your units with better leadership and allow you to fight unit killing characters and preventing them from getting max effect on your unit. Killing enemies in challenges is real instant victory points rather than hoping to break the unit eventually, and then catching them. Placing the lord on a monster allows a large amount of damage to be used as a wrecking ball against small units of troops, killing them to deny their support to your opponent's army while at the same time getting solid VPs here and there (small units such as warmachines, archer bunkers, fast cav., etc).
The argument that you make is fairly good, that they should be better than what they are for what they cost, but stubborn isn't the answer. That's more a dwarf thing. The fluff will constantly talk about the chaos armies led by driven men who will stop at nothing from becoming a living god. I feel this should give Unbreakable to the army general as he s really betting it all, death or glory style, on becoming a Daemon prince. I don't think he or his troops deserve a leadership boost, because honestly they aren't a disciplined force, they're whackjob killers bound by his strong will, and the promise that death would be better than what he would do to you if you run (also on a religious note, your gods seem to like him, and you don't want to **** them off) hence the Unbreakable.
Maybe you would also temper Unbreakable with the entire army taking a panic test if he dies. It does seem that this fluff could be totally manifest in game this way, and be cool and appropriate.
He might deserve to be a little more killy, perhaps with another attack or something, but that can always be solved with the eyes of the gods table (which I hope, more than anything stays with WoC)

Ravening Wh0re
24-02-2012, 21:47
I could live with Unbreakable, but only for the Lord. How about although he is unbreakable, if he loses combat, he then rolls a Ld test. If failed, he gets spawned? DEFINATELY all-or-nothing :)

yabbadabba
24-02-2012, 21:50
First, I countered your point about them being more effective than infantry. If not in killing power, what are they more effective at?

What are they for apart from killing, leadership and giving stubborn through a magic item? Actually I find that your example is an "idealised" one, that has increased the size of the footprint of the unit, done nothing to improve LD or individual survivablilty, and all for an increase of 0.46? Or, in effect, one additional model every other turn?

If you find them boring then don't use them, but your argument is idealised and simplified. I'll try and dig out my Chaos army book over the weekend and have a deeper look.

@ Petey - if you make Chaos Lords Unbreakable, then it can become highly abusive unless you limit army sizes etc. Stubborn is a better compromise, reflecting the element of Chaos in battle (after all not all are successful) vs the determination of the individual. I am finding life really challengin at the moment dealing with the far simpler buff of Orc Choppas - my Empire units are getting damaged enough on the first turn to make them significantly less effective in later rounds. Something like Unbreakable on an uber-killy units would be an absolute nightmare for my Empire.

Duke Ramulots
24-02-2012, 22:07
First, I countered your point about them being more effective than infantry. If not in killing power, what are they more effective at?

What are they for apart from killing, leadership and giving stubborn through a magic item?

@Duke Ramulots: They are supposed to do that, but it's both ineffective and boring. Ineffective because usually the same points of rank and file kill the same or more, and boring because they bring nothing you can't already find all across the army lists.

A Tomb King without MWBD is just a bunch of high strength attacks thrown into your skeletons. A Tomb King with MWBD enhances the unit he is in making it better at both offense and defense. That's what all CC Lords should do IMO

In all of your mathammering you might have missed the part where a lord that kills three times what a base rank and file does only displaces one rank n file trooper. That is why they are worth their points, that and your extra dozen RnF troops wont kill the lord very often while he will rip them apart.

Cant help you if you find the game boring.

TheOneHawk
24-02-2012, 22:08
Also, who the **** takes a naked chaos lord?

yabbadabba
24-02-2012, 22:10
Also, who the **** takes a naked chaos lord? Slaanesh devotees?

Ravening Wh0re
24-02-2012, 23:38
Oh, I had it in my head that the Lord would stay in combat whilst his retinue may have run off :). I certainly don't want a Lord that keeps his guys there all game

Petey
25-02-2012, 00:53
Actually I find that your example is an "idealised" one, that has increased the size of the footprint of the unit, done nothing to improve LD or individual survivablilty, and all for an increase of 0.46? Or, in effect, one additional model every other turn?

If you find them boring then don't use them, but your argument is idealised and simplified. I'll try and dig out my Chaos army book over the weekend and have a deeper look.

@ Petey - if you make Chaos Lords Unbreakable, then it can become highly abusive unless you limit army sizes etc. Stubborn is a better compromise, reflecting the element of Chaos in battle (after all not all are successful) vs the determination of the individual. I am finding life really challengin at the moment dealing with the far simpler buff of Orc Choppas - my Empire units are getting damaged enough on the first turn to make them significantly less effective in later rounds. Something like Unbreakable on an uber-killy units would be an absolute nightmare for my Empire.

Your priest with the speculum might have something else to say about that. :D

And like I said, it should only be on the general, and if he falls, the whole army rolls on panic. Though I could get behind Stubborn, unbreakable actually seems more true to the fluff (and I'm not a chaos player). Also coupled with him having the rule, must challenge, it might not be so bad.

pippin_nl
25-02-2012, 23:02
Chaos Lords are killers, not leaders. They should not be stubborn or unbreakable, but good at killing stuff. Changing the marks so they would require the presence of a Chaos Lord seems like a good idea.

Havock
25-02-2012, 23:44
*shrug* I would rather prefer they made characters in units a bit more protected by not allowing supporting attacks to target them (see where I said in units, lone characters versus units deserve to get swamped)

shakedown47
25-02-2012, 23:58
Chaos Lords are killers, not leaders. They should not be stubborn or unbreakable, but good at killing stuff. Changing the marks so they would require the presence of a Chaos Lord seems like a good idea.

This. Why should our lords be stubborn or unbreakable, no one else's combat lord is and fluff-wise a chaos army shouldn't be the paragon of battlefield discipline, I feel. I quite like the idea that no unit in the army can have a mark of chaos unless there is a chaos lord or exalted hero in the army with an identical mark, and that a number of points equal to the point cost of the general should be spent on core troops marked the same as him.

I'd also like to see chaos lords get Killing Blow as a basic special rule; masters get hatred, princes get ASF, tyrants and doombulls get impact hits, vampires now have a chance to regain wounds, and orcs get choppas. I think Killing Blow is an effective way to showcase the superior martial prowess of chaos lords without going overboard and giving them 6 base attacks or WS 10 or base STR 6 or anything crazy like that and without introducing a completely new special rule to the game. Points-wise I'd like to see a naked Lord in chaos armour (and Killing Blow) coming in at 185 points. Also, and this may sound crazy and it admittedly flies in the face of the conventions of the newer army books, but I'd like to see the Sorcerer Lord option dropped in favor of letting a chaos lord buy wizard levels at 35 points a pop. If a base chaos lord was 185 points and you took him to Level 4, that would ring in at 325 points, or 50 points more than we now pay for a Level 4 sorcerer lord. For that 50 points you'd get two extra attacks, greatly increased survivability, and the ability to tear faces off in combat. You would also, importantly, no longer have to choose between a tooled sorcerer lord, tooled chaos lord, or mutually gimped sorcerer lord/chaos lord combo in games 2500 points or less.

The Low King
26-02-2012, 00:00
I dislike that idea. It is basically saying 'Well, we dont know how to make chaos lords worth taking so we are going to just merge them with level 4s'. It kind of defeats the point (and the fluff)

yabbadabba
26-02-2012, 00:11
It also allows abuse to creep into other army lists. BTW Stubborn is not just about battlefield discipline, its a simple game mechanic thats all.

decker_cky
26-02-2012, 00:19
Honestly, they REALLY need to be rid of that damned Banner of Discipline. Or at the very least disallow characters from joining a unit with it.

Reverse the FAQ allowing the general to pass on +1 Ld and you fix an internal balance problem in a lot of different armies. It's such a simple fix to do. Chaos Lords might not benefit as much from it as some, but it at least gives thema reason to be out there. I'd drop Chaos Lords to 175 or so points too. Compared to a beastlord, Chaos lords have some extra WS and Initiative, better armour, an extra attack and trade primal fury for eye of the gods. The Chaos lord is definitely not 65 pts better than a beastlord.

Another option that could be good is to allow them to take 150 points of magic items or gifts. That should open up combos which other armies can't have, which would justify some of their points premium.

Also, either make eye of the gods simply a bonus for killing characters in combat, or give chaos lords access to equipment making them very good in a challenge.

But the first fix for a lot of combat characters is to fix the banner of discipline.

Havock
26-02-2012, 03:12
I dislike that idea. It is basically saying 'Well, we dont know how to make chaos lords worth taking so we are going to just merge them with level 4s'. It kind of defeats the point (and the fluff)

It was that way back in HoC and it was far from broken or something. It was fun though.
"**** load of PD, fairly crappy spell lore."

pippin_nl
26-02-2012, 10:15
*shrug* I would rather prefer they made characters in units a bit more protected by not allowing supporting attacks to target them (see where I said in units, lone characters versus units deserve to get swamped)

It would be a solution, but not one to fix Chaos Lords, but all characters. The Tomb Kings and Empire could really use it as their characters boost their own unit. Vampires would rejoice, less chance of crumbling armies.

The Low King
26-02-2012, 12:02
It was that way back in HoC and it was far from broken or something. It was fun though.
"**** load of PD, fairly crappy spell lore."

Yeah but the idea of this thred wa to find a way to make them worth taking (ie, as good as level 4s). Simply making them Level 4s because then they are as good as level 4s kind of defeats the point.

Drongol
26-02-2012, 13:53
Yeah but the idea of this thred wa to find a way to make them worth taking (ie, as good as level 4s). Simply making them Level 4s because then they are as good as level 4s kind of defeats the point.

It's pretty much impossible to make a fighting character "as good as" a level 4. And trying to do so really screws over Chaos and other armies that have expensive Lord characters rather than helping them.

That said, if you really want to try to "fix" it, this is about the only way I'd be able to suggest:

-Remove wizards adding their level to their spellcasting totals. Reduce all difficulties by 2-3 points to compensate.
-Completely rewrite the miscast chart to make them more feared and less "I spent all my dice anyway."
-All wizards gain "A Spellcaster, not a Leader." Reduces their potential Inspiring Presence by 6".
-Add the stipulation "Characters do not get an increased Ld" to the Banner of Discipline.
-Spells like Pit of Shades, Purple Sun, Mindrazor, Flesh to Stone, etc all need to be replaced and/or downgraded.
-Fighting-type Lords get "Great Leader." Increases their Inspiring Presence by 6".

Notice that's pretty much a big rewrite, and it also more or less removes any point in taking Lord-level casters as is. And it still doesn't make fighting characters worthwhile, it just means you'll (likely) take a Chaos Lord/Tyrant/etc., then stock up on hero-level wizards and a BSB.

Havock
26-02-2012, 13:54
Well, it should be the Mark of Tzeentch. 145 pts is -a lot-, it means that without upgrades you cost 360 pts, that is about as much as a unit of 20 warriors with kit.

Add items and a gift and boom, 500 pts.

It wouldn't fix the other marks but that's where my other suggestion comes in as it would fix stuff across the board.

Petey
26-02-2012, 15:26
Chaos Lords are killers, not leaders. They should not be stubborn or unbreakable, but good at killing stuff. Changing the marks so they would require the presence of a Chaos Lord seems like a good idea.

Sure. This seems ok, except that it goes against some of the fluff. In almost every example in the background, it's Lords binding through force of will an army that breaks if the leader dies. A great example is in the Bretonnian book (even has a full art page to support it). I want them to be killers, and dangerous ones, but you can't just ignore that they make the army.

Your mark on lord idea, I could take or leave, plenty of precedent in both directions


*shrug* I would rather prefer they made characters in units a bit more protected by not allowing supporting attacks to target them (see where I said in units, lone characters versus units deserve to get swamped)

Yeah... no. That s kind of the point of chaos. High Risk High Reward. And honestly High T, Great armor will protect you from random attacks


It also allows abuse to creep into other army lists. BTW Stubborn is not just about battlefield discipline, its a simple game mechanic thats all.

True enough. But that mechanic is used to describe (so far at least) tenacity in your units and/or leaders, which is usually a function of disciplined training. I don't mind giving it to the Chaos general, and calling it the will of chaos, I just feel that unbreakable is a better idea for the general and his unit (not to say that stubborn would be bad)


It's pretty much impossible to make a fighting character "as good as" a level 4. And trying to do so really screws over Chaos and other armies that have expensive Lord characters rather than helping them.

Not true.


That said, if you really want to try to "fix" it, this is about the only way I'd be able to suggest:

-Remove wizards adding their level to their spellcasting totals. Reduce all difficulties by 2-3 points to compensate.
-Completely rewrite the miscast chart to make them more feared and less "I spent all my dice anyway."
-All wizards gain "A Spellcaster, not a Leader." Reduces their potential Inspiring Presence by 6".
-Add the stipulation "Characters do not get an increased Ld" to the Banner of Discipline.
-Spells like Pit of Shades, Purple Sun, Mindrazor, Flesh to Stone, etc all need to be replaced and/or downgraded.
-Fighting-type Lords get "Great Leader." Increases their Inspiring Presence by 6".

Notice that's pretty much a big rewrite, and it also more or less removes any point in taking Lord-level casters as is. And it still doesn't make fighting characters worthwhile, it just means you'll (likely) take a Chaos Lord/Tyrant/etc., then stock up on hero-level wizards and a BSB.

1 I have no idea why you think this will balance anything, but I'm interested in seeing your math on the topic. Please explain further
2 I m good with this
3 I m good with that as well, except for the cases where I'm not. For example, High Elf wizards or Vampires
4 I m not sure that I follow how this helps. A better stipulation might be, this unit adds 1 to its leadership when it needs to make leadership tests. That would make it worth using with heroes, but also doesn't reduce martial characters gestalt
5 All those spells really need is for people to get ward saves against them
6 I don't really think that s necessary, and in fact may be bad for game balance.

Yes it s a significant rewrite, and many of your ideas I agree with, but I don't think that the issue with teh chaos army atm. The real issue is that sorcerers need a stat nerf. The reason C.Lords aren't taken is because C.Sorcerers are almost as good in every way, and you can nuke things with their spells as well. For most armies this was resolved in 6th ed, when they nerf the majority of caster's stats, to make there be a reason to take a martial versus a caster character. This needs to be done to the next WoC book.

The reason I say this is because I like 8th ed so much. It has done an excellent job so far of emulating and simulating Warhammer background and fluff. All the 8th ed books so far have felt very very much a part of all the stories I've read over the years, and there's less difference between game and fluff now. In that direction, in the fluff for chaos, sorcerers are generally not the best fighters, in fact they re usually twisted small creatures with terrible mutations (to include cultist/magi of tzeench). Giving a Lord of Tzeench access to 2 or 3 magic levels might be ok, but sorcerers should not come standard with good stats or chaos armor (though they should get a rule that lets them buy chaos armor in the magic item section or for a ton of points in their unit page [I'm thinking like 45pts])

Drongol
26-02-2012, 18:44
1 I have no idea why you think this will balance anything, but I'm interested in seeing your math on the topic. Please explain further

Put simply, a level 4 is "required" because without one, your magic offense and defense will suffer compared to your opponents. This is particularly noticeable with armies that have inordinately expensive Lord choices--Chaos, Vampires, Ogres, etc. By removing the casting bonus, you are making level 4s no longer any where near as "auto-include."


3 I m good with that as well, except for the cases where I'm not. For example, High Elf wizards or Vampires

In all cases, things can be handled by additional rules, but I wouldn't consider either High Elves or Vampires to get some sort of special rule to help them.


4 I m not sure that I follow how this helps. A better stipulation might be, this unit adds 1 to its leadership when it needs to make leadership tests. That would make it worth using with heroes, but also doesn't reduce martial characters gestalt

It would mean the Standard of Discipline is no longer the auto-include "fix" for taking a Level 4 as general. It would allow the Standard to go on a flanking unit that doesn't have characters leading it--about right for 15 points.


5 All those spells really need is for people to get ward saves against them

No, no, no, no, no. Allowing Ward saves does nothing to fix any of the nasty instant-kill spells, just makes them not kill characters quite so often.


6 I don't really think that s necessary, and in fact may be bad for game balance.

It's not necessary, largely because even with these changes, there's little reason to actually take a Chaos Lord over a Sorcerer Lord, but you might see a few people do it.

The Low King
26-02-2012, 19:05
No, no, no, no, no. Allowing Ward saves does nothing to fix any of the nasty instant-kill spells, just makes them not kill characters quite so often.

It makes Magic resistance do something. That both weakens the power of those spells and allows you to add a little fix of 'Chaos Lord grants MR3 to his unit'.

xxRavenxx
26-02-2012, 19:07
Allowing Ward saves does nothing to fix any of the nasty instant-kill spells, just makes them not kill characters quite so often.

It allows magic resistance to kick in and save things, which drasticly down-powers the spell. The concern then is how to deal with deathstar units.

I definately think allowing a LoS roll against all the big magic spells so they aren't targeted assassination spells would be good. (I know some aren't, but none should be.)

Drongol
26-02-2012, 21:47
It makes Magic resistance do something. That both weakens the power of those spells and allows you to add a little fix of 'Chaos Lord grants MR3 to his unit'.

Even in those circumstances, MR wouldn't be the best option. "Kills 2/3 of your unit unless you paid 45 points, in which case it only kills 1/3." Compare that to a Dispel Scroll or similar.

And, of course, it does nothing at all to things like Mindrazor, which is another issue. ;)

theunwantedbeing
26-02-2012, 22:18
Even in those circumstances, MR wouldn't be the best option. "Kills 2/3 of your unit unless you paid 45 points, in which case it only kills 1/3." Compare that to a Dispel Scroll or similar.

And, of course, it does nothing at all to things like Mindrazor, which is another issue. ;)

You'de get more use from the Chaos lord by giving him Leadership 10 and docking the Sorcerer Lord to just leadership 8.
Simply as it stops his leadership being equalled by the mage in almost all cases, as well as freeing up a magical banner slot due to the lack of a need for the +1 leadership banner.

Obviously not a perfect fix, but it would be more useful than altering how magic works.

I'de actually like to see Sorcerers get more fighty though, giving them weapon options and such.

Drongol
26-02-2012, 22:47
You'de get more use from the Chaos lord by giving him Leadership 10 and docking the Sorcerer Lord to just leadership 8.
Simply as it stops his leadership being equalled by the mage in almost all cases, as well as freeing up a magical banner slot due to the lack of a need for the +1 leadership banner.

Obviously not a perfect fix, but it would be more useful than altering how magic works.

I'de actually like to see Sorcerers get more fighty though, giving them weapon options and such.

You actually wouldn't see more use in that circumstance. What you'd see is a net nerfing of Warriors of Chaos.

When a "choice" like that goes into place, what it means is that an army can choose between competing in the Magic phase or having a decent Leadership. And since WoC can hardly afford both, there's little chance of the Lord making an appearance--better not to auto-lose and have a decent chance of avoiding breaking (the BSB is there, after all).

Petey
26-02-2012, 23:05
Thank you for the quick reply

Put simply, a level 4 is "required" because without one, your magic offense and defense will suffer compared to your opponents. This is particularly noticeable with armies that have inordinately expensive Lord choices--Chaos, Vampires, Ogres, etc. By removing the casting bonus, you are making level 4s no longer any where near as "auto-include."

Ah ok. I don't agree with this point. I take 2 level ones in my vampire counts army and they still do well. Granted, some armies need the help more than others, as their martial choices might be too expensive or not a good option.


In all cases, things can be handled by additional rules, but I wouldn't consider either High Elves or Vampires to get some sort of special rule to help them.

It just doesn't make sense that the vampire's bubble is then 6" instead of 12" It also doesn't mesh fluff wise that high elves couldn't take a competent mage general.


It would mean the Standard of Discipline is no longer the auto-include "fix" for taking a Level 4 as general. It would allow the Standard to go on a flanking unit that doesn't have characters leading it--about right for 15 points.

My fix does the same. Wording is everything.


No, no, no, no, no. Allowing Ward saves does nothing to fix any of the nasty instant-kill spells, just makes them not kill characters quite so often.

Yes it does. Here's the thing, we need instant kill spells in this edition (or things close to them, like d6 wound spells, or killing blow on spells, etc) The problem isn't any one thing; great range, ignore saves, easy to wound, takes all the wounds away. If the spell had any one or two of these elements, it would be fair. As it stands, those dubious spells get all 4. There in lies the problem. I don't advocate removing the range or that they take all wounds, but altering how easily they wound in the first place, and a hero's resistance after teh fact would go a long way to fixing the problem. I suggest a simple change (adding saves against those spells) and if they are still broken, we go from there and modify further.


It's not necessary, largely because even with these changes, there's little reason to actually take a Chaos Lord over a Sorcerer Lord, but you might see a few people do it.

yeah, got to disagree with you here, I m actually a fan of martial characters in this edition. Sure you want a super heavy tank... (I mean wizard...) here and there, but you can't count on them. I've lost many games due to crap winds of magic rolls, and I suspect that most people downplay how damning that can be. I like that martial characters are better point costed these days, and that they get (usually) a special rule that helps them greatly (like killing blow on wights, instead of the power being attached to a weapon, or MWBD on a tomb king). I'm sure they'll do an equally good job making the LoKhaos a really good option. The key is good abilities, and a slight nerf on the sorcerer.

Maoriboy007
27-02-2012, 00:58
Yes it does. Here's the thing, we need instant kill spells in this edition
Insta kills are probably in the top three worst parts of this edition. The big spells in the latest books would seem to indicate the game designers agree. The armies at the top tend to be the ones that tend not to worry about such spells one way or another, including WoC.


(or things close to them, like d6 wound spells, or killing blow on spells, etc)Probably a bit fairer in game terms

(The problem isn't any one thing; great range, ignore saves, easy to wound, takes all the wounds away. If the spell had any one or two of these elements, it would be fair. As it stands, those dubious spells get all 4. There in lies the problem. I don't advocate removing the range or that they take all wounds, but altering how easily they wound in the first place, and a hero's resistance after teh fact would go a long way to fixing the problem. I suggest a simple change (adding saves against those spells) and if they are still broken, we go from there and modify further.)The Spells would be fine if they ingnored armour and allowed ward (or just MR) saves - makes sense.

As far as fixing Chaos Lords go Probably a 10-15 point drop would be a good start. Marks on wizards should just give them access to the lore of that choice.




[/QUOTE]

sulla
27-02-2012, 04:30
You'de get more use from the Chaos lord by giving him Leadership 10 and docking the Sorcerer Lord to just leadership 8.
Simply as it stops his leadership being equalled by the mage in almost all cases, as well as freeing up a magical banner slot due to the lack of a need for the +1 leadership banner.

Obviously not a perfect fix, but it would be more useful than altering how magic works.

I'de actually like to see Sorcerers get more fighty though, giving them weapon options and such.Would you increase the Ld on heroes to 9 too? If so, you may be more likely to see a hero with the ld banner and a wizard lord rather than a sorceror hero and fighter lord.

I don't think the WoC book is the place to 'fix' fighter heroes. The best place is the BRB (even if we wait a couple of years longer for some armies that way). Let's fix the imbalance for everyone, not just the armies that are lucky enough to get later books.

Regardless of that, is Ld really such an issue for WoC? They shrug off almost all panic and can easily be made immune to psych through MoK or frenzy banner. Even Ld8 with a reroll is usually enough to protect units who won't be losing combat by much, if ever.

The problem with the chaos lord is he is priced because he could kill out the entire front rank of units singlehandedly. In 8th, this is no longer so valuable when his unit itself can do this many times over. There's no fix for this short of reducing his cost to less than a black orc boss or similar.

Petey
27-02-2012, 06:15
Insta kills are probably in the top three worst parts of this edition. The big spells in the latest books would seem to indicate the game designers agree. The armies at the top tend to be the ones that tend not to worry about such spells one way or another, including WoC.

Probably a bit fairer in game terms
The Spells would be fine if they ingnored armour and allowed ward (or just MR) saves - makes sense.

As far as fixing Chaos Lords go Probably a 10-15 point drop would be a good start. Marks on wizards should just give them access to the lore of that choice.

[/QUOTE]

Well, the latest books seem to indicate that they are listening to their customers, not necessarily that they agree. There might also be the chance that they planned on the book lores being weaker than the 8 in BRB from the word go. We honestly don't know, and they aren't telling.
I think we can agree that we don't like the instant kill spells as they are, and agree they need change of some sort.

As to the fixes on chaos lords and sorcerers, I feel that it all falls to the distinction between martial and magic, and what should the differences be.

Martial should get you.
Better Stats
Better Armor
Better Weapons/killing ability
Better Leadership
Consistent Damage output

Magic Characters should
High Damage
Random damage output
Access to arcane Items
Bound spells

When you have a situation that a character gets things not from their column, the designers must be careful to nerf the rest in the column. If we have a situation that you have too much in a column without any drawbacks, then the cost is irrelevant, as the efficiency will be enough to make other choices not worth taking. The best answer is for each character choice to be special, useful, and valid as a choice for the army.